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Posted by MuyJingo

@PsychoKnights said:

I do believe your scenario is plausible. Honestly, the Superman vs. Batman debate is stale, but I agree it is possible and even likely that Batman could win in a sneak attack.

However, Batman could never win in a straight up head to head battle. Even with Kryptonie, Superman could just keep his distance and fry him with heat vision or though a skyscraper on top of him.

Yup, eggxactly. For some reason people can't even accept that. and both elevate Superman to god status by cherrypicking his powers, from random issues where they are grossly exaggerated.

Head to head battle, no contest. If Batman knows Superman is coming, then it's possible for him to have the advantage and win.

Posted by MuyJingo

@Eternal19 said:

It is relevant because superman has kryptonian technology that he could resort to. and he wont as easily fall for a trap as batman would.

But his intellect is a seperate thing from having access to the tech. He could be retarded by Kryptonian standards, so at our level, and he would still have access to the tech. Lex can use the tech without being at Supermans level.

flinching doesnt mean scared if someone tried to hit me i'd move that doesnt mean im scared of that person that just means that im scared of being hit.

Well, I agree, but I do think Lex is scared of the Joker, and I don't think that reflects poorly on Joker at all. Let's agree to disagree on that point.

P.S. i respect your debating skills and it seems like you're an adult

Well, thank you, and likewise :)

I do get frustrated sometimes when people get into pissing contests, or argue to save face. I'm just interested in talking about different scenarios with characters I like in a universe I find very interesting. That's all :)

Posted by Zompirewolf

I agree, Batman would triumph over Supes four days a week. The other three days are a different story.

Posted by Eternal19

@MuyJingo said:

@Eternal19 said:

It is relevant because superman has kryptonian technology that he could resort to. and he wont as easily fall for a trap as batman would.

But his intellect is a seperate thing from having access to the tech. He could be retarded by Kryptonian standards, so at our level, and he would still have access to the tech. Lex can use the tech without being at Supermans level.

flinching doesnt mean scared if someone tried to hit me i'd move that doesnt mean im scared of that person that just means that im scared of being hit.

Well, I agree, but I do think Lex is scared of the Joker, and I don't think that reflects poorly on Joker at all. Let's agree to disagree on that point.

P.S. i respect your debating skills and it seems like you're an adult

Well, thank you, and likewise :)

I do get frustrated sometimes when people get into pissing contests, or argue to save face. I'm just interested in talking about different scenarios with characters I like in a universe I find very interesting. That's all :)

lets agree to disagree on this, just like other viners have said this topic is stale. I already have to argue this with non comic book readers all the time and i kinda dont want to do it anymore on here

Posted by Mediumguy

@Eternal9 Let's leave it at 50/50

Posted by Skewer

A lot of superman fans who don't believe that batman can beat superman seem to forget that he has Lex Luthor as a main villain, who's no more powerful than batman and has beaten him many more times. I believe he probably can, and I am a superman fan. Although I'm really sick of the batman vs superman trope we see all the time and I really wish they would give it a break.

Posted by Matchstick

Seems a little silly this has gone on for 8 pages. No Batman can't win in a straight up fight, obviously. I haven't read the new 52 but assuming there is the same level of trust between the 2 characters then Batman could easily beat Superman if he's willing to use he position as a trusted ally to betray him. If you think about it Superman's closest allies are the ones that have the best chance of beating him if they use trickery and deceit against him.

Posted by MuyJingo

@wolfrazer said:

So what if this happens and Batman is all alone?......EXACTLY he can't win.

I'm not denying, nor would I ever deny that in an encounter like that Batman would stand no chance. The argument I gave is when he is able to prepare for it, and how he might do it.

Edited by thejman251

@muyjingo said:

@wolfrazer said:

So what if this happens and Batman is all alone?......EXACTLY he can't win.

I'm not denying, nor would I ever deny that in an encounter like that Batman would stand no chance. The argument I gave is when he is able to prepare for it, and how he might do it.

- The funny thing is that the pic posted was from their first meeting in the New 52 in which Bruce had no intention of going to metropolis at all, and definitely not in a glowing green jet.

- I'm sure that it's possible for Batman to win all alone, however i won't say that it's likely.

- Posting one pic doesn't mean that it's impossible for Bruce to win in a similar scenario however, there's little use speaking to superman fans at all.

Posted by DeathpooltheT1000

Last point, because its a comic and more insane things had and will happen.

Posted by DeathpooltheT1000

Last point, because its a comic and more insane things had and will happen.

Posted by rabindra123

You know how hard it will hurt batman, superman hits him with one punch by running in speed of light.. Even if batman has kryptonite, superman can just cut batman's utility belt and freeze it with his breath or just cut batman's head with heat vision before the fight starts..

Edited by Ciriel

Haha the first bullet point was wrong. No need going further.

Posted by RedLantern23

Is there a scenario where Batman beats Superman? Probably. But Superman wins 95 percent of the time imo

Posted by noah00oo

If superman wanted to, before batman can reach inton his pocket superman can run superfast behind him and snap his neck even before someone blinks. On the other hand he may be too kind and feel a strong friedship whith batman.

Posted by DigitalShooter9

Ill like to clarify a few misconception. Kryptonite is harmful to everyone. Not only Superman. Next, in hush, Superman was being mind controlled so it didnt make a difference the outcome is because he isnt putting in 100%. Also the tagline for Superman is faster than a speeding bullet. So what supes will do is fly faster than a Speeding bullet till he is behind Batman, grab him from the back and fly him to space. Since he can travel faster than a speeding bullet, he can reach outerspace in a few mins then punch batman to the sun. Checkmate.

Batman has dodged point blank gun fire, so if superman is as fast as a speeding bullet, why not just dodge him? That is unnecessary assuming superman will never each those attributes under kryptonite and red sun. So no checkmate for supes for this case,

Edited by Kangaxx_54

I will never understand why it is so completely incomprehensible that Batman *in certain scenarios* can beat Superman ... but Superman can totally have an archvillain that is largely the same as Batman (as in, unlimited resources, power suits, genius etc.). If Superman can never, *ever* be defeated by a human, what's the point of reading any comic with Lex Luthor in it? Superman is basically just humoring him.

Anyway, nice blog; I agree with you. Sneak-attacks especially is what I'd bet on.

Edited by Jayc1324

He's not saying that batman will be superman all the time, just that it's possible. Most of you say that he has no chance, but there are scenarios that batman could win. That's the only point he is trying to make.

Posted by Jayc1324

@ciriel: what do you mean by this?

Edited by Eternal19

@sethysquare said:
Ill like to clarify a few misconception. Kryptonite is harmful to everyone. Not only Superman. Next, in hush, Superman was being mind controlled so it didnt make a difference the outcome is because he isnt putting in 100%. Also the tagline for Superman is faster than a speeding bullet. So what supes will do is fly faster than a Speeding bullet till he is behind Batman, grab him from the back and fly him to space. Since he can travel faster than a speeding bullet, he can reach outerspace in a few mins then punch batman to the sun. Checkmate.

Batman has dodged point blank gun fire, so if superman is as fast as a speeding bullet, why not just dodge him? That is unnecessary assuming superman will never each those attributes under kryptonite and red sun. So no checkmate for supes for this case,

You really think Batman can dodge a punch from Superman without PIS. you really are a blind fanboy

Edited by Ciriel

@jayc1324: It said Batman was smarter than Superman

Posted by Jayc1324

@ciriel: oh. Well he is the worlds greatest detective and invents all those fancy gadgets of his

Edited by MuyJingo

I will never understand why it is so completely incomprehensible that Batman *in certain scenarios* can beat Superman ... but Superman can totally have an archvillain that is largely the same as Batman (as in, unlimited resources, power suits, genius etc.). If Superman can never, *ever* be defeated by a human, what's the point of reading any comic with Lex Luthor in it? Superman is basically just humoring him.

Anyway, nice blog; I agree with you. Sneak-attacks especially is what I'd bet on.

Thanks :)

@jayc1324 said:

He's not saying that batman will be superman all the time, just that it's possible. Most of you say that he has no chance, but there are scenarios that batman could win. That's the only point he is trying to make.

Glad you get it...surprised so many don't. Thanks :)

@ciriel said:

@jayc1324: It said Batman was smarter than Superman

Meh, I might be technically wrong on that. Back in the day it was true...Clark was just a farmers son from Kansas. At some point he got an advanced kryptonian intellect....except it doesn't mean much. Most of the time, he isn't doing anything to show he has this advanced kryptonian intellect, while Bruce is always (well not under Snyder) shown using his mind and intellect.

Posted by UncleEmu

LOL, moment Superman suspects something or feels the kryptonite and he blasts Batman with some heat rays and gets the **** out of there. Only superhero that can take on Superman is Shazam, or maybe some of the peeps from Fables, although they aren't exactly superheroes. Batman is my favorite, but that doesn't mean I walk around with blinders on

Posted by Jayc1324

I agree, unless batman doesn't use kryptonite.

Posted by kbrackie

Superman has three weaknesses, Kryptonite, Red Sun, Magic. Batman has all the weaknesses that apply to a normal man. I like Batman. I like Superman. Why does there have to be a fight between two superheroes? I'm not sure but, every time there is a cross over between Marvel and DC there seems to be a fight between the two (or more) heroes, why? BTW Superman isn't a average day joe with superpowers, he is a genius and probably equal to Batman or better. Also, Superman will use Batman for his jack rag.

Posted by deaditegonzo

Can we get this stickied as possible the worst thread of all time?

Anyway, without horrible writing Batman would die before his brain could even process what was happening 100% of the time.

Edited by TheAmazingImmortalMan

@kbrackie said:

Superman has three weaknesses, Kryptonite, Red Sun, Magic. Batman has all the weaknesses that apply to a normal man. I like Batman. I like Superman. Why does there have to be a fight between two superheroes? I'm not sure but, every time there is a cross over between Marvel and DC there seems to be a fight between the two (or more) heroes, why? BTW Superman isn't a average day joe with superpowers, he is a genius and probably equal to Batman or better. Also, Superman will use Batman for his jack rag.

so much of this it isn't even funny

Edited by Eternal19

Can we get this stickied as possible the worst thread of all time?

Anyway, without horrible writing Batman would die before his brain could even process what was happening 100% of the time.

aren't you underestimating batman a bit.

Posted by Jayc1324

If superman didnt know batman was after him batman could do it with a kryptonite bullet or arrow, or expose to red sun radiation...and not to mention those fights in hush and the dark knight returns.

Posted by PopRock123

Its plausible for batman to beat him given the right scenarios. Its not like MuyJingo is saying he win 100% he just stating that it is plausible. Some of the people here can get really anger at times.

Posted by soldierofel

First of all i'm gonna say that superman is my favourite character out of the two. However i enjoy batman as he is an interesting character and has some awesome stories. Anyway when it comes down to this fight i always think "Why should they fight". These two have a awesome friendship and paternship so why do they have to fight. I applaud Muyjingo for this blog as he's not trying to flame it's just a good old fashioned debate. I will admit batman has beaten superman. But it's always through prep. Prep is what gives batman the main advantage as he can have as much time as he wants to plan for the worst. While this is good it's making batman very stale in my eyes. There are some people who think that batman can beat the living tribunal or galactus with prep. That is plain ridiculous. When it comes down to this fight both have a incredible amount of willpower. Superman will never backdown and neither will Batman. However I beleive batman would have to pull out all the stops to beat superman. In the end it comes down to weather batman is given a ridiculous plot device or severe PIS to beat supes. I applaud batman because he's a human who walks with gods and that is truly awe inspiring. But in a fight what's to stop supes bringing the phantom zone projector to this fight. That's instant win for superman. In addition i know people like that batman is a genius but i beleive that superman pre flashpoint once said that he had found hundred's of ways to improve batman's technology. In the end this fight isn't about who would win, it's more about popularity. And at this time batman is the more poupular charcter. That is why more people want to see him beat superman. In the end this blog is intresting and as i said before I applaud Muyjingo for not making this a. argument

Edited by Durakken

Problem is is that most people assume it would be a "fight" when it wouldn't be. Batman's plan to stop Superman isn't a fight where they're punching each other or Batman even plans to survive. You have to recognize that the plan is to stop Superman and is likely some sort of autotrigger and might even have multiple plans that'd trigger all at once or one after another or have an AI that could judge when Superman has been stopped or not to stop whatever the plan is.

Also whatever or however the plan is set up it is likely invisible to everyone, including Clark, and he has likely never actually talked about it and likely it is obfuscated so much that it's impossible to figure out without Batman telling you.

Posted by Phaedrusgr

Despite the fact, I really like Superman, I can't say I've been systematically reading his stories. Can a real superman fan (not a fanboy) answer this? Can Luthor kill Supes? Can he make a plan so perfect that he could actually kill or come this close to kill Kal-El?

Edited by Alex_Reos

This comment is way to late, but Superman (going from example sit.) flies to earth and upon entering the atmosphere Superman could use his x-ray vision to scan the bat computer and find Batman's plans, or scan the batcave and take it by force. Of course he would confront Batman first. But after Batman saying no, Supes just flies at the speed of a speeding bullet, if not faster now, 75 years later (his leaps eventually turned to flying, hmmm?), searches the Batcave and takes it. If a fight would to happen, Superman one punch. Not enough to kill, but enough to knock him out. Maybe punch him through a wall then superspeed, another wall, and again, and again, and again, until Batman goes into shock or blacks-out or sumthin. And Alfred is a 60 year old man, if Supes took Bats, what's he gonna do? But some k in his soup and tea? And if necessary, Superman could kill Batman, one for millions, right? I mean the Marvel Comics Illuminati considered it.

Posted by Jayc1324

The fact that it has already happened.

Posted by wildvine

1) Superman isn't mentally inferior. He has all kinds of technology he invented, not to mention matching wits with Luthor.

2) Batman wouldn't threaten innocents to beat Superman. I just don't see that.

3) Krytonite isn't that common

4) Superman is really fast. And this argument boils down to "with prep"

5) Fair enough

6) X-Ray vision trumps disguises.

7) Again, nanotech isn't that common I don't believe. Not sure even Batman could just order some up online.

8) Summary, Batman can beat Superman with prep in a perfect storm type scenario. Then again, so could I.

Moderator
Posted by Frozen

Batman can beat Superman, actually I see it more than feasible. But luckily, we'll see it unravel in Dawn of Justice.

Posted by Tikbaz

Of course it's completely plausible that Batman could beat Superman, it's a comic book. Any character at any given time can be written to defeat any other character. Superman could punch Bruce's head off, use heat vision from space, freeze him with his breath, use super speed to get right next to him and then throw him into the sun. But Batman could just as easily use his new 52 stealth suit to sneak up on Clark when he's at work, turn on a portable red sun solar radiation emitter, put on kryptonite gauntlets that he had Zatanna magically imbue with extra strength for him and beat Kal into the floor.

Or Bruce could tell Clark that he set up he and Diana with an all expenses paid lovers retreat because they're all such good friends and he wants the two of them to enjoy each other's company. Clark takes Diana to this retreat and they enter their room, which is lead lined with hidden compartments in the floors, walls, and ceilings, unbeknownst to Superman. During Wonder Woman and Superman's "alone time", those hidden compartments open up flooding the room with gold kryptonite radiation, robbing Clark of all his powers, leaving him exposed to the green k bullet that was just shot through the window by a co opted Deadshot into Kal's now human heart.

But here's the thing, Batman would never hire some villain to assassinate his best buddy, and Superman has ZERO reason to throw his favorite costumed friend into the sun. If it's in continuity, these two aren't going to go all out on each other. Out of canon, either could kill the other with relative ease. It's just that Bruce would have to prepare for the encounter ahead of time, while Clark could destroy Bruce on a whim.

Honestly, how is there even a discussion still going on about this, didn't Batman already beat Superman in continuity in Batman/Superman annual number 1?

Posted by LEGACY6364

Bull.

Edited by DeathpooltheT1000

Edited by LEGACY6364

Posted by EdgeofReason

If Bat and Supes were to fight, morals off, Bats would be dead before he even realized he was in a fight, please tell me theres nobody here that disagrees with that statement...

Posted by Dextersinister

@tikbaz:

it's a comic book. Any character at any given time can be written to defeat any other character.

True

The problem with your examples aren't Batman beating Superman in a fight, they are Batman just suddenly murdering someone who trusts him, it speaks volumes that Superman needs to be placed in a position where he doesn't even know Batman is trying to kill him.

Superman in continuity in Batman/Superman annual number 1

That was a staged fight that Superman continued in a brawl, he predicted Batman would use kryptonite and didn't take to the skies or incinerate it because they needed the match to be convincing, he'd also taken a hit by Monguls son beforehand while under it's influence.

Posted by DeathpooltheT1000

Edited by Tikbaz

@tikbaz:

it's a comic book. Any character at any given time can be written to defeat any other character.

True

The problem with your examples aren't Batman beating Superman in a fight, they are Batman just suddenly murdering someone who trusts him, it speaks volumes that Superman needs to be placed in a position where he doesn't even know Batman is trying to kill him.

Superman in continuity in Batman/Superman annual number 1

That was a staged fight that Superman continued in a brawl, he predicted Batman would use kryptonite and didn't take to the skies or incinerate it because they needed the match to be convincing, he'd also taken a hit by Monguls son beforehand while under it's influence.

I see where you're coming from, but I intentionally wrote those examples as not straight up fight encounters, but stealth blitzes on an unknowing, trusting Superman. The point was just to show Bats could beat Supes if he felt that, for whatever reason, he needed to. If you read my post again, you'll see I stated Superman could just punch Bruce's head off in a straight up one on one situation. I'm not suggesting that Bruce can punch with Clark, that's ludicrous, I'm suggesting that Clark can be defeated by Bruce if necessary. Also, I can think of scenarios where Bruce wins even if Clark knows that the battle is happening, however, Bruce would still have to plan; as I also stated in my original post, Batman cannot just defeat him on a whim, he has to plan in advance. Clark can win on a whim; no preparation needed.

Bruce and Clark decide to settle a dispute between themselves via violence; Superman being the good guy that he is, and knowing that he possess all the physical advantages gives Bruce some time to prepare. He's being very sporting. They are going to have a fight in a desert in front of the League, and Martian Manhunter will officiate the match. The rules are simple, make the other guy say uncle, or knock the other guy out. Superman uses his prep time to acquire a lead lined suit, so kryptonite can't harm him. He also uses this time to practice non lethal combat maneuvers with Wonder Woman. Batman uses his prep time to learn an incantation from Constantine that makes anyone who hears it highly open to suggestion. He also steals Luthor's power suit and augments it with New52 stealth suit capabilities. He loads his utility belt with myriad hypersonics and custom modified flashbang grenades. He brings the green k ring as well.

Fight day.

Superman and Batman square off against each other, and Superman speed blitzes Batman as soon as Manhunter says begin. Superman hits Batman with a ten hit combo (while holding back of course), that drops Batman to his knees. Clark tells Bruce he has no chance, he tells him to quit. Batman, having a high tolerance for pain, gets back on his feet and smiles at Clark. Clark says that even with Luthor's armor and all his martial skills, Bruce can never win against him. Batman was counting on Clark holding back; taking things slow at the beginning. He uses Clark's speech as the perfect opportunity to activate the stealth features on the suit. Clark says that's clever, but not enough to stop him. Clark scans the area with all of his vision types, minus heat. While he scans, Bruce throws every hypersonic and flashbang he has in his belt to momentarily stun Clark. Clark screams at the pain his eyes and ears are momentarily feeling. Bruce utters his incantation. Clark feeling strange, flies back a hundred paces. Bruce pursues, telling Clark to give up; Clark fights the urge to concede. Batman has now caught up to Clark, and has started attacking, all the while telling Clark to surrender, and give in. Clark of course does not quit, that's not what he does. He fights back, even though he can't see what he's aiming for, he lands several hard haymakers on Bruce. Thankfully for Bruce, the armor, and the fact that Clark can't see his target, keeps him relatively safe. He's in pain, but he can still fight. The entire time this physical brawl is taking place, an internal battle is being waged inside of Clark's head. He keeps feeling as if he should quit, due to the spell Bruce used earlier. The longer they fight, the harder it becomes for Clark to stay invested in the battle. Batman tells Clark to give in, it's not worth it to continue, you know I'm right. He tells Clark I'm always right. Superman replies with never. Batman throws a razor sharp batarang at Clark that tears his lead lined suit. Batman, still invisible, slips on his green k ring. Bruce wails on Clark with everything he has, and the green k weakens the Man of Steel just enough that he's starting to feel those attacks. Clark, getting enraged, lashes out with a wide angle super speed heat vision blast that catches Batman, and damages the suit. It still functions, but stealth has been disengaged. Clark tells Bruce I have you now. Batman throws both hands in the air. It seems as if he realizes that he's outmatched, and is giving up. Clark asks if Bruce yields. Bruce says no, but you do. Clark asks what do you mean I yield. Bruce smiles. Martian Manhunter face palms himself because he can't believe Superman actually fell for that. Manhunter rules the fight in Batman's favor due to Superman saying I yield. The spell, the stealth, the super suit, the punching were all just distractions. Batman tricked Superman into giving up in front of everyone. Batman wins.

Sorry that's such a long example, but, there you go. Both were given fair shakes, but Bruce used his knowledge of Clark to manipulate him into quitting without him even realizing it. Is any of this actually likely? Of course not, Superman could have knocked him out in the first half second; he didn't even have to give Bruce prep time, he could have just torn him in half on the spot. I'm just showing that it is plausible for Batman to win against him or anyone else if the writer so chooses.

Thanks for the response. :)

Posted by Tikbaz

Also, this is an intentionally silly scenario, don't take it to heart. :)

Posted by Dextersinister

@tikbaz: but stealth blitzes on an unknowing, trusting Superman.

But that speaks of nothing, the purpose was to show that Bruce has some sort of skill or mental edge. What amounts to suddenly killing your friend in there sleep doesn't paint that.

Your fight amounts to fanfiction and requires that Clark be out of character stupid, they've already shown that he knows how Bruce thinks better than most, Clark can see vitals so can hit someone with a single punch hard enough to knock them out or just restrain him in metal, also using someone else's resources wouldn't be a win for Batman.

Posted by logy5000

The more technology and prep that writers give him (Batman) in order to win, the more ridiculous it seems.

Clark can hear everything on the planet, so it seems like a huge plot convenience to me that Bruce can prep himself so much without Clark knowing.

Bruce is still just a human, no matter how much he works out or how smart he is. He has limits.

Even if Bruce were prepped to the maximum, Clark could still just grab the moon and hit Earth with it, killing Bruce in the process.

So really, there's no plausible reason at all for Batman to beat Superman in a fight that isn't lopsided on the writers' part just for the sake of Batman surviving the fight.