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Posted by Battlepig

@Obtrusive: I do like my heroes and villains to be who they are. But if you have to replace them (which is something they appear to feel the need to do every now and then) and decide to go with a black instead of a white character, then at least make it be something you don't do because of "I'mma make a black hero! The black kids will read it if the guy's black! Genius!!!" Also, don't announce him as the "All-New, All-Better, All-Black Spidey-Man". How about just having the character? Like Nick Fury. Suddenly he was not only black but also Samuel L. Jackson. That was awesome, because Sam Jackson is awesome and so is Blackfury. Mainly because his main character trait is not "Being black" which isn't a character trait to begin with, but something else. Even something as silly as "Being Samuel L. Jackson" works.

@Vance Astro: Pretty much this. Only that I really don't mind diversity. I have no problem with having female bosses unless they're incompetent. I have no problem with black people as long as they're not assholes. I have no problem with latinos as long as they're good people. It's not the skin you wear, it's what you are on the inside. And people need to realize. But yeah, maybe it is as says, that we're just a generation of people who do not mind racial diversity.

Posted by Jnr6Lil

There should be more diversity

Posted by Soulstealer

@Battlepig said:

@Obtrusive: I do like my heroes and villains to be who they are. But if you have to replace them (which is something they appear to feel the need to do every now and then) and decide to go with a black instead of a white character, then at least make it be something you don't do because of "I'mma make a black hero! The black kids will read it if the guy's black! Genius!!!" Also, don't announce him as the "All-New, All-Better, All-Black Spidey-Man". How about just having the character? Like Nick Fury. Suddenly he was not only black but also Samuel L. Jackson. That was awesome, because Sam Jackson is awesome and so is Blackfury. Mainly because his main character trait is not "Being black" which isn't a character trait to begin with, but something else. Even something as silly as "Being Samuel L. Jackson" works.

@Vance Astro: Pretty much this. Only that I really don't mind diversity. I have no problem with having female bosses unless they're incompetent. I have no problem with black people as long as they're not assholes. I have no problem with latinos as long as they're good people. It's not the skin you wear, it's what you are on the inside. And people need to realize. But yeah, maybe it is as says, that we're just a generation of people who do not mind racial diversity.

Um maybe I'm being that guy... but assholes come in all shapes and sizes so what difference does said person's race make? Also good and bad people come in every creed and color. To be honest while I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, I think that you yourself don't realize that there is always a bias ingrained in people. That's not to call everyone a racist or say "golly gee there should be more minorities in comics" but that is to say that everyone has a culture and as such cultures often times clash and in surprisingly subtle ways in the real word so why should comics or God forbid their writers be like everyone else?

I've gotten into political debates with friends before and had to out right tell them, our personal experiences are too different for us to agree on this ever. And at the time that was absolutely true. And what are we if not an amalgamation of genes, personal experiences, and upbringing? People are different, cultures are different, and cultures affect people to create yet more differences. Differences however are not good or bad, they're just differences.

As for writers and artists; they tend to draw from their personal experiences. So I don' t see why artists and writers with different experiences than the general public is used to is a bad thing. Of course I don't think anyone is trying to say that someone should be hired just for their skin tone or gender, I think what is being argued is the notion of the "Good ol' boys club" versus the reality of the industry.

Posted by Battlepig

@Soulstealer said:

Um maybe I'm being that guy... but assholes come in all shapes and sizes so what difference does said person's race make? Also good and bad people come in every creed and color. To be honest while I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, I think that you yourself don't realize that there is always a bias ingrained in people. That's not to call everyone a racist or say "golly gee there should be more minorities in comics" but that is to say that everyone has a culture and as such cultures often times clash and in surprisingly subtle ways in the real word so why should comics or God forbid their writers be like everyone else?

I've gotten into political debates with friends before and had to out right tell them, our personal experiences are too different for us to agree on this ever. And at the time that was absolutely true. And what are we if not an amalgamation of genes, personal experiences, and upbringing? People are different, cultures are different, and cultures affect people to create yet more differences. Differences however are not good or bad, they're just differences.

I agree wholeheartedly with us all being victims of our upbringings. But if we follow that thought along, then creating diverse characters is not going to change anything or anyone. Some racist isn't suddenly going to go "Them-there blacks're pretty gosh-darn friendly folk. Dat's what Spidey-Man's a-taught me". If we're now following that thought in its application to comic books, then creating diverse characters and putting them above a good story (See the whole Victor Hernan Alvarez debacle) won't help anyone. In fact, if anything, it will hurt the medium. I'm not saying that diverse characters don't work as a general concept. If you want to see it properly done, read the pre-New-Fifty-Two incarnation of Jaime Reyes. He just was hispanic and lived near the border. It was never pushed in the foreground. It was never made a big deal of. He had a great, also latino, supporting cast who was not made a big deal out of either and the top priority has always been the story.

And that is my entire point. The very second you put your character's "amazingly diverse background" above the story or you start "economising on space" because you want your black character to be celebrating Kwanzah for five pages, complete with a lengthy explanation of what brought the holiday about and what it means and so on, then you're clearly doing something wrong. Just like you're doing something wrong if you have your white character punch a bad guy in the face for twenty pages an issue.

Posted by WaveMotionCannon
@Battlepig

@WaveMotionCannon: The story has come to an absolute standstill as nothing has happened in the first three issues other than Bendis giving us some Bendising (the dialog going "Bendis." - "Bendis?" - "Bendis." - "That Bendis?" - "No, The Bendis." - "Oh, Bendis. Chutzpe Oy Vey Schmuck!") and a lot of characters we're supposed to care about despite them not having any defining characterstics other than being black or asian and talking like Bendis characters talk.

While I don't mind the race of the cast, because it's the least of the book's problems, it's everything else that bothers me to no end.

What is Bendising?
Posted by Battlepig

@WaveMotionCannon: Dialog like this:

Character A: "Bendis."

Character B: "Bendis?"

A: "Bendis."

B: "That Bendis?"

A: "No, The Bendis."

B: "Oh, Bendis. Chutzpe Oy Vey Schmuck!"

Voila, half a page wasted on something he could have done in one panel.

Posted by Soulstealer

@Battlepig said:

@Soulstealer said:

Um maybe I'm being that guy... but assholes come in all shapes and sizes so what difference does said person's race make? Also good and bad people come in every creed and color. To be honest while I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, I think that you yourself don't realize that there is always a bias ingrained in people. That's not to call everyone a racist or say "golly gee there should be more minorities in comics" but that is to say that everyone has a culture and as such cultures often times clash and in surprisingly subtle ways in the real word so why should comics or God forbid their writers be like everyone else?

I've gotten into political debates with friends before and had to out right tell them, our personal experiences are too different for us to agree on this ever. And at the time that was absolutely true. And what are we if not an amalgamation of genes, personal experiences, and upbringing? People are different, cultures are different, and cultures affect people to create yet more differences. Differences however are not good or bad, they're just differences.

I agree wholeheartedly with us all being victims of our upbringings. But if we follow that thought along, then creating diverse characters is not going to change anything or anyone. Some racist isn't suddenly going to go "Them-there blacks're pretty gosh-darn friendly folk. Dat's what Spidey-Man's a-taught me". If we're now following that thought in its application to comic books, then creating diverse characters and putting them above a good story (See the whole Victor Hernan Alvarez debacle) won't help anyone. In fact, if anything, it will hurt the medium. I'm not saying that diverse characters don't work as a general concept. If you want to see it properly done, read the pre-New-Fifty-Two incarnation of Jaime Reyes. He just was hispanic and lived near the border. It was never pushed in the foreground. It was never made a big deal of. He had a great, also latino, supporting cast who was not made a big deal out of either and the top priority has always been the story.

And that is my entire point. The very second you put your character's "amazingly diverse background" above the story or you start "economising on space" because you want your black character to be celebrating Kwanzah for five pages, complete with a lengthy explanation of what brought the holiday about and what it means and so on, then you're clearly doing something wrong. Just like you're doing something wrong if you have your white character punch a bad guy in the face for twenty pages an issue.

I'd argue that if you can't put a good story together then you can't put very good characters together period. I know that's not strictly true, however story tends to expand from characters and characters change and develop from the stimuli of the world in which they live and that invariably leads us back to the story.

Also I understand your argument but let me counter argue here. I'm a fan of vampire fiction, when I was younger I loved some Ann Rice. Now whether you love her or you hate her she's been a pretty defining voice on the genre. But my biggest problem with her writing at least in my opinion is a lack of diversity. That's not to say she doesn't have great and engaging characters or strange spooky and sometimes fun story lines that's to say that all of her characters end up having a very similar feeling to me at the end of the day.

Most of her characters were emotionally tormented, wealthy, well educated, beautiful. Yes they had many different motivations and psychological profiles, but it seems incredulous that by default only one section of society become vampires.Or inversely that vampires whom have lived multiple human lifetimes some how become a single section of society. There aren't the ugly? The damaged? The stupid? The poor? The nihilistic? No one is working a 9-5 or struggling to pay their mortgage? Becoming undead fixes all of life's problems big or small except for the moral issues?

Another and much more closely tied to comics example I'd use is Superman. Superman works because the world is different than him. I don't try to make Supes out to be perfect or infallible but I have argued before that he tends to be more perfect than the world in which he lives. That's his conflict.

Now how interesting would it be if everyone in his world is suddenly exactly the same as him? Not powers, or at least not just powers, but suddenly everyone is a direct carbon copy of him. Thought for thought and word for word. Does that make a good story? If everyone has the exact same moral code? I know that's an extreme picture, but likewise I for one know that diversity isn't a buzzword for people of non-Anglo Saxxon decent and women.

Diversity is about differences and things outside of the society established "norm". It's about new experiences as much as it is about showing us someone we might not be familiar with from a cultural or sociological standpoint or yet again maybe it's someone we are very familiar with just in new and different circumstances. Not everyone loves the same sorts of characters one way or another, yet everyone knows that comic writers have to keep in mind public appeal as much as niche appeal but I don't see that the two are mutually exclusive.

So yes while I agree that "culturally diverse" shouldn't be the selling point of a book nor hold more weight than good story telling and character development, I also think you're putting a little too much emphasis on what you feel is wrong with diversity as it's handled in certain situations as opposed to all that diversity adds to characters and stories in general.

Posted by sandiego008

They should try to implement diversity on new characters and leave the old ones alone. But a good story > what color a persons skin is or if they have a wiener or not. But on a side note ... where are my female Hispanic heroes?!?!?!

Edited by Vance Astro
@sandiego008 said:

But on a side note ... where are my female Hispanic heroes?!?!?!

 Marvel just created three...The current Miss America,Slingshot of the Secret Warriors,& The new White Tiger, Ava Ayala.But they already had the previous White Tiger,Angela Del Toro,Firebird,Huntara,Silver Claw,Tarantula formerly of the Heroes for Hire,Tempest formally known as he mutant Angel Salvatore,& Wind Dancer.
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Posted by TheRedRobin

I don't care if a character is black, white, asian, mexican, or some kind of other race but it begins to be a problem when every person you see is white.

Posted by Soulstealer

@Vance Astro said:

@sandiego008 said:

But on a side note ... where are my female Hispanic heroes?!?!?!

Marvel just created three...The current Miss America,Slingshot of the Secret Warriors,& The new White Tiger, Ava Ayala.But they already had the previous White Tiger,Angela Del Toro,Firebird,Huntara,Silver Claw,Tarantula formerly of the Heroes for Hire,Tempest formally known as he mutant Angel Salvatore,& Wind Dancer.

Also Reptil and his reaction to the new White Tiger was made of greatness.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/8/84071/2068054-what_.jpg

Posted by Jnr6Lil

@TheRedRobin said:

I don't care if a character is black, white, asian, mexican, or some kind of other race but it begins to be a problem when every person you see is white.