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Posted by Trodorne
@Amegashita: Not so much the story but how they are playing out Matt Murdock, they are repeating the events of Emerald Twilight from the green lantern series when Hal Jordan when "insane" and killed most of the lanterns and the guardians. it was later revealed that he was being controlled by the little yellow bug known as Parallax entity. which is similar here where matt is being controlled and driven insane by another entity named ssnakeroot, they plan to kill off Daredevil, and then later on having him come back from the dead. yeah sure we have T'Challa as the new Daredevil but its going to be temporary as you can never replace Matt as the man without fear.
Posted by Silkcuts
@Trodorne said:
" @Amegashita: Not so much the story but how they are playing out Matt Murdock, they are repeating the events of Emerald Twilight from the green lantern series when Hal Jordan when "insane" and killed most of the lanterns and the guardians. it was later revealed that he was being controlled by the little yellow bug known as Parallax entity. which is similar here where matt is being controlled and driven insane by another entity named ssnakeroot, they plan to kill off Daredevil, and then later on having him come back from the dead. yeah sure we have T'Challa as the new Daredevil but its going to be temporary as you can never replace Matt as the man without fear. "
I am glad you explained that to me.  Mainstream comics are entertaining, but are not as ground-breaking since a lot of ideas are recycled.
Posted by Amegashita
@Trodorne: Oh yeah, I read that one.  Now that I think about it, they are similar.  Very similar.
Edited by Mainline
@Silkcuts said:

I am saying is that mainstream comics are turning away some fans.  The word Greed maybe too loaded, but I won't change it.  

1. That's why it's called the MAINstream
2. Of course you won't because that's all the "validity" your argument has.  People didn't hire Warren Ellis out of altruism or creative integrity.  They had a contract.  And when it came time to renegotiate, he wasn't  indentured into writing for the mainstream, he earned his placed in it and to collect that paycheck.  Who are you to call him out as immoral and undeserving of profiting from his work and his climb?  Should Raimi and Jackson be forced to direct  cheesy low-budget horror flicks because that's where they started?  Should a company that has always been a for-profit mainstream venture suddenly say, "Forget market principles let's make sure Silk is happy!" 
3. And that, ultimately, is why it's just a nerd rant because you don't care whether they're "greedy" or not... you're just sore about how some decisions turned out.  So renewing a contract with Ellis isn't greed, but cancelling a book is.  Giving a book a chance to thrive in the market isn't greed, but failing to renew it when it doesn't perform suddenly is.  Why is it DC's responsibility and not yours when you're the consumer who dictates sales?  Why is it either of the Big 2's responsibility when they are mainstream by definition?  You're entire argument is undercut by the existence of independents.  Maus wasn't published by either of the Big 2 and it's not their job to subsidize independents just because you want them to. 
 
I don't rant about how McDonald's is failing to elevate American cuisine.  That would be absurd.  It doesn't mean McDonald's doesn't try to capture parts of the gourmet market- say with coffee- because they're a business, but no one sane thinks it's their job to subsidize gourmet tastes.  Getting mad at either of the Big 2 for failing to give you an indie flavored book is like throwing a hissy fit at Burger King because they don't have coq au vin (you're seriously using "Maus" as an example?) and there's a four star French restaurant across the street waiting to serve you.
 
You're just bitter but none of your thoughts connect rationally to that as a justifiable course of action for either of the Big 2.  There's a reason they're the BIG TWO and Promethean isn't.  That doesn't mean you can't critique decisions on specific criteria whether your subjective enjoyment, short sightedness, having creative consequences, etc... but your blog doesn't do that... it just slags them off as "greedy" which is just smoke for, "I don't like this!"
Posted by Silkcuts
@Mainline:  Back to Warren Ellis, he has sold out.  He is a great writer and I love his work, but where is Desolation Jones #2, or where is Fall #2, etc, etc.  He gives up on his independent work because he was miss treated in the Indy work.  He climbed the comics ladder and I will not knock him on that, but he had his roots in Indy work.  Indy work is a place many writers improve their craft, I am not saying not to make money, its their job.  I am just saying indie work is dying because of greed.  
 
The Big two are mainstream by definition and that is what the imprints are there, the imprints are not mainstream. Removing the imprints goes back to this who debate you think I am just ranting about.  Vertigo was not mainstream, DC is slowly making it mainstream and it is effecting the product.  I am not just ranting I am the original target market.  So yes a book like Maus is not DC's direct concern, but books like Channel Zero made Brian Wood who he is and if it was not for his Indy work he wouldn't be as good of a writer he is.  
 
Tell me if my views are so wrong, would Brian Wood be a great writer without Demo, Local and Channel Zero?  Would Jeff Lemire be where he is without Lost Dogs and Essex County?  Would Grant Morrison be where he is without Vertigo? Even Alan Moore needed 2000AD. Having a non-mainstream outlet improves the product.  That is fact and not a rant.   So cutting the imprints is hurting the product and turning away fans.   Most North American fans cannot read an anthology because it is too short, but if you ask Alan Moore anthologies help him keep his writing tight.  Most mainstream comic fans are just sheep that have no mind of their own and they let the market decide for them.  That is where comics is dying, rehashed stories and rebooted characters because most comic fans like the pyrotechnics over the substance.
 
You may be the only person who thinks this is gibberish of a blog, but many people can at least see where its coming from.  The hate you have for me is more personal then my opinions I have on mainstream comics.  Because to accuse me of being just bitter, then you don't know me.  This blog was not about hate, it is to open eyes that comics are dying if the product does not improve.  I keep saying that to you in as many ways I can, but its like you think you can convert my view.  Only a person who has read comics across the board like I have can tell me this is a nerd rant and it mean anything.  Harvey Pekar referred to comics as "only pictures and words" and that is true. Comics is the medium and the medium is stagnate.  
 
I am likely the furthest thing from a normal "Fanboy" on the vine and I am proud of it.  I am also not like you who pretends to care about Wildstorm on your blog 
"Remembering the house that Jim Lee Built" and then calling me a bitter nerd ranter?  So what is up with that? I can honestly say "Jim Lee abandoned his child twice now, he is a bad father" and you can tell me I am bitter, but that is just greed.  Comicvine would be more fun if most people would not talk about "the Avatar above them" but about the state of comics, the medium, the politics and other forgotten genres like Cyberpunk or even anthologies.  Comics get stronger the more you push it to its edges and that was what Vertigo was about.  So with Wildstorm died... is Vertigo next?  Some are starting to think so and those are the ones being turned away.  It is not just me who DC is alienating.
Edited by Mainline
@Silkcuts said:

" This blog was not about hate, it is to open eyes that comics are dying if the product does not improve.    

Yes it is.  You're casting moral dispersions.  "Greed" about a for-profit corporation and people doing their jobs.  Then call them "sell outs" when they succeed.  Then you call someone "Didiot" because you can't restrain your nerd rage.  I'm no fan of Didio's either, but I use actual criteria to explain why I think his decisions were wrong, not his character as person ("greed") or his intelligence as an individual ("idiot").  You've got is so bad you're calling someone "a bad father".  Dude, you're transparently hateful.
 
You're simply being hateful and trying to drum up more hate as evidence by how many times you repeat, "B-b-but people agree with me!" despite still failing to support your points with actual logical arguments. 
 
You're trying to argue imprints aren't mainstream, but ignoring that they're a capital venture by a mainstream corporation.  I've already explained it as analogous to gourmet coffee at McDonald's... it isn't some altruistic venture, if it doesn't sell they're free to go independent.  The Big 2 are, in their own self-interest as it always was, giving independent-like ventures the opportunity to make it big, but it's not their obligation and you've yet to explain why except to, hatefully, repeat "greed" over and over like a parrot. 
 
By the way, notice that you've reverted back to the "comics get stronger" argument again, which is actually the DC IS NOT GREEDY ENOUGH argument... you're claiming it is in their economic self interest to do things the way you desire which proves you're a hypocrite who doesn't care about their motivations only that the end result pleases you.  You just want to throw around "greed" to sate your anger. 
 
As for me, I don't consider either of the Big 2 flawless, but I can't stand to see a purely hateful rant masquerade as analysis...
Posted by Silkcuts
@Mainline:  We are just being to dogs chasing tales and you made this more about personally attacking me.  Sure Didiot is not a pleasant pet name, but I am not the only person to use it.  Jim Lee is a bad dad. I am saying it as is. I don't care to convert your opinion.  Readers like you are common, don't add to the medium.  I've had 1/2 talks with Jeff Lemire about his work outside DC comics.  I maybe the only person to talk to Tim Bradstreet for a decent conversation without talking about Punisher.  I am not bitter, I have a mind of my own and that scares you.
 
And I have stated facts between us.  Levitz allowed Vertigo to be created as a platform for storytelling,  If you were a real Vertigo fan you would know that.  It is only when the new regime came in things changed.  Levitz went back to writing and Didiot has ruled with an Iron Fist.  You are not reading everything I am saying.  You are just trying to prove me wrong, when it it just my opinion and an opinion other people share. "DC is turning away fans" I used the word greed sure and I also said it may be loaded, but I named my blog that, I am not changing it.  
 
Coffee and comics are different, but that was a cute example.
 
As for me being concerned with what the big 2 do, sure, I will miss the great stories that will end up in Lucien's Library.  I only comment because fans like you are a dime a dozen and instead of arguing and seeing me views as hateful, you should see why I say it. You don't have to agree. I read more Indie works in a year then most read mainstream comics, so yes what pleases me should matter.  I am not a Dime a dozen fan.  I have written over 250 reviews for comicvine, how many have you?  I have been featured 5 times. You?  People respect my views because it comes from a different angle.  I think your bitter because no one reads your blog and that is what this attack on me is.  You can't discredit me on this blog because I had more credit outside of just this blog.  
 
Greed is what drives the beast and I am not arguing that.  Greed also needs to be in check and it is not in check.  Comics as a state is dying and if you read the same amount and the varieties I do we would not be arguing.  Your strictly arguing now because you want to prove me wrong, but you can't.  It is a fair statement that DC is turning away fans and people besides me have said yes.  If it doesn't turn you around then good for you be a cookie cutter fanboy.  In words of Number 6 "I am not a number, I am a free man".  I can say that because from a Grant Morrison Batman story or Blankets I read comics for a good story not because the beast tells me it is good.  With The new regime taking the Vertigo characters back and Wildstorm now in limbo, the moves DC is making are based on Greed. Didiot wants his playthings back and he doesn't care who he alienates to get them back. Levitz should still be in power, when he stepped down that is when my arguments are most visible.  
 
So tell me I am a hypocrite, tell me I am bitter, say whatever you like, but until you can have the same reputation around comicvine as I do, and that is being "An Individual", then your just attack me and I don't care.  So continue to attack if you like, but until you see the state of comics outside of the box, then your just a drone.  The state of comics are dying, but because all you read is the "safe" books you'll never see what more comics can offer.  Brian Wood I'll use for example again, his best works are no Mainstream: Local, Channel Zero and Demo. Demo is now at Vertigo, but it was original published indie.  Having no limits on comics improves the product.  Having 22 pages a month can limit what can be done.  Having only one imprint limits direction.  Streamlining the focus is not improving the product and I can say that with confidence because I've read enough outside the Big two to know that there is so much more.
 
Cheers.
 - Silkcuts
Posted by Mainline
@Silkcuts said:
" @Mainline:  We are just being to dogs chasing tales and you made this more about personally attacking me.    
Dude, it's pretty sad if quoting your own words back to you constitutes a personal attack.  And it's equal parts sad and hilarious if the substance of your argument is, "I'm popular.  I'm free of The Matrix.  I can name drop!"   Oh, I forgot one, "I'm the prophet here to foretell the death of comics!"   There is no eyeroll big enough.
 
The personal attacks on me I've ignored because... well, they just cause me to pity you more.
 
You've got nerd rage.  It's why "bad dad" = fact, or "greed" = fact, rather than seeing the clear moral dispersions you're casting.  Further, you've failed to do anything constructive, the whole of your rant is venting when the solution is campaigning... but sure, casting moral dispersions on DC will definitely "save" comics.  Your entire argument has crumbled but you're refusing to acknowledge it, now that your claiming indie-flavor is not only viable but the necessary future of comics (man, that messiah complex must be a burden!)... if you actually believed what you were saying then your argument would be that DC is not greedy enough. 
 
In sum, "Wah, DC did stuff I didn't like... now let me insult them!"  Of course haters will attract hate.  I'm just dashing your illusion that you actually have an argument, much less anything constructive to contribute.
Posted by Silkcuts
@Mainline:  You started the personal attacks.  You just like to think I have nerd rage, you haven't proven anything. There are fans that are turned away, you may not like the wording I chose, but it is true.  So yeah when talking to you I feel like I have a messiah complex, you are attacking me to make yourself feel better.  But you haven't broken me and you can't make prove to me that I am wrong.  The fact that you avoid all the Indie work I listed shows what we are two different levels of comic readers, so yes I can fell that your just a common comic reader.  My views are boiled over for years of seeing comics outside the mainstream, you can call it nerd rage, but it is more then that.  It is someone who has the right to complain, if it wasn't guys like me, Y: The Last Man would be canceled and then late adapter can enjoy it.  By taking the path less taken I can say in honesty that I know what comics I love and why I love them.  DC has change a lot since the days I feel in love with them and a lot of other people besides me can see it too.  So until you can bring yourself to my level of comic enjoyment this is nothing more then white noise to each other.  My point of views were meant to give people a view they may have not see, while yours is simple attack on me that will result in me feeling even more proud I am not like you.
 
Cheers.
Posted by Son_of_Magnus

DC is still cheaper than Marvel and DC does not have any sort of book like The X books where they force you to read each book if you want to keep up

Edited by Mainline
@Silkcuts said:

" @Mainline:    

 you I feel like I have a messiah complex  

  if it wasn't guys like me, Y: The Last Man would be canceled and then late adapter can enjoy it.    

Hahaha, man.
 
You can't keep your argument straight.  You keep flip flopping between the fate of the industry and the truism that mainstream is not indie.  That's not an argument, dude. 
 
The quote above sums it all up though... you feel entitled.  That, my friend, is nerd rage. 
 
By the by, you might want to read more of my posts before making assumptions about my consumption, but really... it's clear facts and research don't matter to you... like stating Fables is a success without advertising (despite network television ads and a newspaper print ad campaign).
Posted by Silkcuts
@Son_of_Magnus said:
" DC is still cheaper than Marvel and DC does not have any sort of book like The X books where they force you to read each book if you want to keep up "
I am aware DC has cheaper books.  The blog is not about the charge in price.  It is about the state that comics are changing and I believe for the worst.  DC is slowly becoming like Marvel and that is why the product is in danger.  Wildstorm and Vuda are now gone, Vertigo is being trimmed.  When Levitz was in power comics were about story telling. 
Posted by Mainline
@Silkcuts said:

" @Son_of_Magnus said:

" DC is still cheaper than Marvel and DC does not have any sort of book like The X books where they force you to read each book if you want to keep up "
 When Levitz was in power comics were about story telling.  "  
 
Ahahahaha!  You realize that Levitz has been the single biggest contributor to making Wildstorm more mainstream than indie right? 
 
He's responsible for the loss of Millar, Layman, Moore, Dunbier, and Ennis. 
 
Again, all this comes down to is you disliking stuff and finding a backwards rational to throw insults at it rather than historical truth or logical argument.
Posted by Silkcuts
@Mainline:  My argument is simple and is not changed, your the one playing with my words.  And the argument is that Comics as they are now are losing their creative direction.  By trimming the product down, you are not allowing growth.  You miss understand what I mean by Y: The Last Man.  I used it as an example because Vertigo was once about stories, it was a series started when Levitz was still there and it last 60 issue.  Once Didiot and Lee came to be Vertigo series have been cut let right an center.  Unknown Solider for example, it is a series that was acclaimed, sales were fine, but because The Unknown Soldier is DC property and Didiot wants him back, it gets canceled.  I have made many valid points, you are ignoring them.  With Wildstorm, Vuda and Vertigo in trouble, DC is streamlining their product to focus on the big bucks they know how to make.  
 
As for Indie being they Key, yes.  The Big Two head hunt talent from Indie sources and that is why a company like Wilstorm died.  It raised the talent and the Big two take it way.  My arguements haven't fallen apart, you are just ignoring them.  It is easier to accuse me of things then to cut your own strings.  So keep up your hate on me, I like it.  I will sleep better knowing there are more like you and less like me in this world.
 
Comics as it is are not improving.   
Trodorne said:
" @Amegashita: Not so much the story but how they are playing out Matt Murdock, they are repeating the events of Emerald Twilight from the green lantern series when Hal Jordan when "insane" and killed most of the lanterns and the guardians. it was later revealed that he was being controlled by the little yellow bug known as Parallax entity. which is similar here where matt is being controlled and driven insane by another entity named ssnakeroot, they plan to kill off Daredevil, and then later on having him come back from the dead. yeah sure we have T'Challa as the new Daredevil but its going to be temporary as you can never replace Matt as the man without fear. "

Comics are getting less creative and more production.  It is easier to reuse ideas and with different characters then to come up with something new.  Imprints like Wildstorm fail because the talent is taken when the imprint has a chance to grow.  (Greed).  Those talents then will go the the mainstream imprints of just DC or Marvel and at times rehash ideas.  The product is not improving.  So I am right.  The product is turning away fans.  DC is turning away fans.  You want me to admit to something that I can't because that would lie.  "Is DC's Greed Turning away fans?"  I even said maybe greed was too strong a word, but you keep forcing me to keep saying it.  So yes DC is greedy.  It had an imprint like Wildstorm and then the talent got big it head hunted it, now that Wildstorm dies they blame poor sales.  It is the greed that caused it in the first place.  Ellis could of been given more money, Brubaker, anyone.  When it boiled down to it DC did't care about Wildstorm.  Jim Lee didn't as well, if you were to go on the Wildstorm Boards, he doesn't post there.  It is not just a statement, it is true, Jim Lee is a bad father, he doesn't know his child which is Wildstorm.  He abandoned it, twice.  Greed is involved with a lot of the members of DC.  I haven't attacked Geoff Johns because I don't see him as greedy (yet).  
 
So if your so informed, why do you ignore the fact that more cancellations and unjust ones happened when Didiot took over?  Why do you ignore the Levitz point and still say I have nerd rage.  Cut your strings.
Posted by Silkcuts
@Mainline said:
" @Silkcuts said:

" @Son_of_Magnus said:

" DC is still cheaper than Marvel and DC does not have any sort of book like The X books where they force you to read each book if you want to keep up "
 When Levitz was in power comics were about story telling.  "  
 
Ahahahaha!  You realize that Levitz has been the single biggest contributor to making Wildstorm more mainstream than indie right?  He's responsible for the loss of Millar, Layman, Moore, Dunbier, and Ennis.  Again, all this comes down to is you disliking stuff and finding a backwards rational to throw insults at it rather than historical truth or logical argument. "
Levitz tried to make the product better.  His heart was for the stories.  Levitz heart was in the right place.  He helped protect Vertigo and the man is allowed a few mistakes.  He is also responsible for Watchmen and Frank Miller's Dark Knight.  When Levitz stepped down the product has been effected.  Unknown Solider for example wouldn't of been given a chance to see how the sales in trades would of gone and the sales would of improved. 
Edited by Mainline
@Silkcuts said: 

    So if your so informed, why do you ignore the fact that more cancellations and unjust ones happened when Didiot took over?  Why do you ignore the Levitz point and still say I have nerd rage.  Cut your strings. "

 I "ignored" it because it's stupid if you don't admit the underlying fallacy of your argument, which is that EVERYTHING is done with a profit motive, even giving "story" a chance.  Where you're argument completely falls apart is the belief that an economic motive to tell good stories means you are 1) beholden to tell good stories and 2) released from your profit motive. 
 
The entire change of guard argument is stupid because the same motives and rationales existed across both regimes (and companies, and products for that matter).  You're just taking the decision made on the latter end personally and, without proof, evidence or knowledge, ascribing moral implications to said decisions, which is... quite frankly, laughable for an adult in a capitalistic society.  I've pointed this out repeatedly as your hypocrisy.  DC was under NO OBLIGATION to give any indie-styled works or creators a shot.  Whether under Levitz or Didio there was always a profit motive.  That's why it's hilarious for you to pretend that all beginnings are contractless, altruistic, utopias of creative freedom... then when their contracts are up (NOT even a cancellation!  Like you exploiting Adam's quotes in your opening post) failing to renew suddenly = moral failing. 
 
The over-personalization of their actions ("OMG, Lee doesn't read my forum posts!"), the entitlement, it's all nerd rage.  It's like ordering fast food and thinking the cashier is in love with you because she said, "Thank you for your order" then thinking the kitchen has a vendetta against you because your fries were a minute late. 
 
It's a joke.  Levitz was subject to just as many economic pressures and controls from his parent company, shareholders, etc. and, eventually, would've made the same decisions but you've romanticized him into a defender of all that is indie while the second guard are commercial whores (ignoring that the entire business is always commercial).
Posted by Mainline
@Silkcuts said: 
Levitz tried to make the product better.  His heart was for the stories.  Levitz heart was in the right place.  He helped protect Vertigo and the man is allowed a few mistakes.  He is also responsible for Watchmen and Frank Miller's Dark Knight.  When Levitz stepped down the product has been effected.  Unknown Solider for example wouldn't of been given a chance to see how the sales in trades would of gone and the sales would of improved.  "
Sure, that's why three of independent comic's most successful and critically acclaimed storytellers were let go under Levitz. 
 
Again, you're a hypocrite. 
 
If you were all about the indies, you'd be raging at Levitz's actions against Millar, Moore, and Ennis.  But because it doesn't fit the complaint you want to make, he gets grace "a few mistake" but everyone else is clearly a money whore.  I mean, wow. 
 
It all comes down to your particular butt-hurt over "Unknown Soldier" (etc)... "Wah, DC did things I didn't like... now let me insult them!"
Posted by Silkcuts

Your views are yours and that is why you read what you do.  I read what I do and when I started reading comics, it was about story.  Alan Moore and Swamp Thing are the roots to my comic up bring and when they wrote comics it was for a different reason they they do today.  And I am pretty sure you are not from the same school as I am.  So that is where the views change.  It is not false fasts it is true, when the changing of the guard occurred the DC changed, when Jenette Kahn was in power, she was about stories and that is why Marvel took over as number one.  She cared more about the product then the Marvel way.
 
I love how you are comparing fast-food to comics. Symbolically it works because the comics you are protecting are like fast-food.  The comic that are not read are like foreign cuisine, not for everyone, but those who like it have a new perspective of what can be done.  My comments are not nerd rage and it is a perspective you just can't see. You will not  change me and I can careless to change you.  That was never my point because I never knew who you were before this blog.
 
Levitz had morals.  He protected Vertigo as long as he could and he lost.  The new regime has likely not effected you so of course you can't see the ripples of their actions.   
 
I also stated I used the adam quote to show that things changed with the new regime came.  I addressed that.  I also supplied the whole link, I am not shy about it and I wanted to have a quote from someone directly effected by Wildstorm being defunct.
 
So continue to attack me if you like, I have better things then to continue this pointless debate.  If you disagree guys like me are being turned away from from Mainstream comics then, why are you helping to keep me turned away?  I am not the only person turned off by the direction of DC comics and that is fact.  We maybe a minority, but this minority have our own reasons.  Mine I shared and I feel like the product is dying and the fact you are not as well read comics outside the main 2, this argument is pointless.  
 
Its like me saying David Lapham was better when he was indie.  Well yes he was, but it didn't pay the bill, so he went mainstream and I understand that.  But if the mainstream readers would take control of their minds and explore things outside the safe-zone, the product dies because guys like David Laphahm can't survive on Stray Bullets, even if its an award winner or not.  Awards mean nothing to the mainstream reader, they rather be duped into buying garbage.  There are good things in Mainstream comics, I am not arguing that, but by killing off imprints and focusing only on the "Safe" books, the product doesn't improve.  So we are comic reader loose out on series like Stray Bullets and they find their way to Lucien's Library, and instead we get the Superman World war crossover and Greg Rucka leaving because his Batwoman is not as important as Bruce Wayne is.  
 
So you can chase your tail with this topic, you haven't proven me wrong, because you haven't proven that fans are not being turned away.  Your just mad at my choice of words and are finding reasons to attack me.  So reword my sentence and tell them they are flawed, its fine.  But there are fans alienate and fans turned away, that is the bases of the blog and those who wanted to see why those fans are alienate have their chance.  This blog is meant only to provide a view outside the mainstream.
 
Cheers!
 - Silkcuts

Edited by Mainline
@Silkcuts said:

 I love how you are comparing fast-food to comics. Symbolically it works because the comics you are protecting are like fast-food.  The comic that are not read are like foreign cuisine, not for everyone, but those who like it have a new perspective of what can be done.  

Wow, it took you THIS LONG to get that illustration?  Gosh, I wonder why I used McDonald's and "coq au vin" and French four star restaurants in my illustration! 
 
Hilarious. 
 
The fact that you finally get the illustration but miss its point is not particularly surprising.  The fact is that the mainstream caters to exactly that and resenting it for being mainstream is as ridiculous as expecting coq au vin from Mickey D's... but nonetheless, because you feel so entitled, you think it's worth raging against.  Truth be told, a preference for French cuisine over secret sauce and sesame seeds is more than fine... but where I've consistently attacked your "argument" is in your fiction of creating nefarious figures who laugh manically whilst counting money at the expense of the very industry providing said riches.  You decided to take specific cancellations personally while deciding to ignore others and it's that illogical hypocrisy that I've pointed out. 

But, once again, you've backed away from your point of the viability of indie works and now you're back to the truism of "indie is not mainstream" (wow, we can reliably count on you to flip flop between those two positions like clockwork!).  A truism, incidentally, is not an argument.  The mainstream will ALWAYS turn away some consumers that's what makes it the MAINSTREAM.  That doesn't act as a proposition on which you can attach any causal assumption like "greed".  That's as absurd as saying, "Is Silk's self-importance turning the sky blue?!"  [Silk-mode] YOU CAN'T CHALLENGE MY POINT- THE SKY IS BLUE! [/Silk-mode] 
 
This exposes the absurdity of your argument.  All you want to do is condemn DC so you mount the insult "Silk is greedy" then tack on a truism "water is wet" then use the truism as "proof" of your insult. 
 
What.  A.  Joke.
Posted by WW-Fan

i think they are thinking too much about the money sometimes!
Posted by Silkcuts
@WW-Fan said:
" i think they are thinking too much about the money sometimes! "
Thank you.
Posted by Mainline
@WW-Fan said:
" i think they are thinking too much about the money sometimes! "
Really, when are they thinking about it too much? 
 
We've established for Silk, it doesn't matter whether or not they're thinking about money so long as his books don't get cancelled (heck, not even cancelled, just not renewed in the case of Breechen).  If someone else's favorite writer gets canned he could care less- DC is "entitled to a few mistakes"- but when it affects him, suddenly DC is greedy! 
 
DC is a corporation.  It is always thinking about money.  The only difference is Silk is just noticing how it affects him and wants to reverse engineer it as a criticism.  Every for-profit venture is always going to turn away consumers, it cannot be all things to all people, and using that as a truism to argue that a for-profit company is greedy is absolutely ridiculous
 
Again, it's just about Silk taking customer service personally.  Levitz is the cashier he fell in love with because she said "Have a nice say" and Didio is the fry cook that Silk's thinks is out to sabotage the restaurant because his plate was a few minutes late.  I suspect, that if you consider when you think the profit motive was "suddenly" too great, it has less to do with a changed motivation on their part, but simply the effect it had on you.  It's a substance-less critique. 
 
Worse yet, it's entirely without evidence.  For all we know the people Silk blames for their "greed" sit in meetings all day championing the creators that they have to be with and communicate with all day long, who share roots with from where they came, and with whom they have more common interests and bonds with and excitement about... but at the end of they day they have a job to do, bosses above them, and goals to be met (no matter WHO is in that position) and so decision are made.  The fact is we don't know but Silk has the audacity to condemn guys who love the business, grew up in it, and stuck with it despite way more lucrative opportunities elsewhere (barring Johns who, let's face it, is a complete Cinderella story- quasi rookie writer to DC architect in 5 years, then director in another 2- I tend to think his rise is a bit of a bubble) as "truth" without knowing one way or the other.  And his evidence?  The truism that mainstream comics don't serve everyone.  Wow.  Water is wet.  The sky is blue.
Posted by Silkcuts
@Mainline:  attacking me is fine.  I am convertible not being happy that DC is cutting the fat and imprints like Vertigo is not face.  I am practicing like I preach.  Guys like you post memorials of Wildstorm, but by your real response you don't care if its gone.  So call me a hypocrite, you no nothing about me.  The books canceled were not just mine books, I listed some that were not mine like great 10, but are banter back and forth is so you can feel good about being part of the herd.  So leave people like ww-fan alone.  Attack me if you want.  It won't bug me because if you cared about comics you would see outside the box.  You only see my views one way, and that is your way.  So sure I read indie comice, but I also am not narrow minded with a good read in comics.  
 
I am stated facts and you keep ignoring them.  So play with my words, you will not change the facts.  DC is turning away fans. When I stated reading DC Janette Kahn established a tone. She is gone, things have slowly been changing.  It is just the new regime was the camels back because of the extremes they took.  If you read books like Stray Bullets, you would understand how the beast really works and it is sad that great comics die out to greed.  But you avoid accepting any of the Indie comics as fact because they are above you.  Award winning books that don't feature deadpool or Superman or any other chracters that gave you your 21 wiki points.  My views of comics are broader then yours and that is fact. So call me whatever, but we are too different levels.  Say what you want about me and be as bitter as you like.  But leave other people like WW-Fan alone.  
 
Cheers!
- Silkcuts
Posted by Mainline
@Silkcuts said:
" @Mainline:  I am convertible not being happy that DC is cutting the fat and imprints like Vertigo is not face.   
So play with my words, you will not change the facts.  DC is turning away fans.  
Of course you're "convertible", you flip flop every moment and your argument is entirely based in arising frenzy in people, once again you fall back on "I am so good.  I am white knighting people.  I am such an enlightened reader." when none of that goes to the substance of your argument.  It's embarrassing dude.  As for being comfortable of course you are.  You're entitled and you've got nerd rage.  Most normal people would feel self conscious about making completely irrational personal attacks against people you don't know, don't have any evidence about, and who have always had transparent economic motive... but not a nerd in heat. 
 
And yes.  "DC is turning away fan."  Cripes.  Water is wet.  The sky is blue.  What is the solution?  "DC should never turn away any fan."  That's completely absurd for any venture, profit-based or otherwise, it's not sustainable.  That fact is a truism that doesn't make your theory of greed TRUE.  That's why you're a joke.  And the fact that you accept the firing of Millar, Moore, and Ennis is why you're a hypocrite. "DC can turn away those fans... but not me..." 
 
Even worse, you place all the blame on DC but take all the credit for yourself.  You "saved" Y: The Last Man, but then you're not responsible for the cancellation of books.  DC gets no credit for giving indies a chance but all the moral condemnation for cancellation when it doesn't work out. 
 
What.  A.  Joke.
Posted by ombla2

I'm sorry about Wildstorm but i will never abandon DC

Posted by Silkcuts
@ombla2 said:
" I'm sorry about Wildstorm but i will never abandon DC "
I know your not alone. Its good your loyal. I wrote the blog because there are products lost that were miss handled and because of that they are good products that could of been more. I understand the nature of the beast, it is unfortunate that some people lost their jobs because the money is elsewhere.  I am sad because when I got into DC, I felt it was about story. That is why I love Vertigo and even, Vertigo is not safe.  So the minority readers like me will have to one day break into Lucien's library to see where great books like Madame Xanadu would of taken or even Wildstorm books that never now will be written.  Even me I still read a little DC, but it seems to get smaller, each year.  If they cancel Hellblazer because of Didiot's mandate, then that maybe the final stray because I have no reason left to care.  Batman doesn't need my money same with Superman of the rest of the trinity.  If Vertigo canceled Hellblazer, then it finally betrayed the older Vertigo fans with the last possible series they could cancel.  Swampy, Sandman, and all the original totems gone, Hellblazer does better outside the main imprints.  If John goes DC it is because of Greed and that is true. John would not help the DCU since he was gone for so long he doesn't fit there anymore. Swamp Thing as well doesn't fit anymore in my opinion and DC took him back.  I hope with Wildstorm, if they keep the universe, they keep in separate.  The wildstorm guys just don't work in the DCU.  Like the Majestic... DCU doesn't need another Superman.
 
As a friendly challenge, you don't have to accept it.  But try a book, budget allowed, that is outside your norm.  I guess its why I love Alan Moore, comics are so great because they can tell stories ways other mediums can't.  I only comment, because you may discover something special. I don't know what your norm is, I am I guess campaigning to help the industry as a whole.  Sales suck everywhere and a lot of talent is around outside the "Safe" books.  Brian Wood's greatest book in mine and most Brian Wood fan's is Channel Zero and that is a book Vertigo has yet to purchase off him. I've become acquaintances with Jeff Lemire because the book that exposed me to him was Essex County and that was before his DC Exclusive.  Now because of that grass roots relationship he knows me by name and he has been an great incite to the comic business to me.  It is a business and they do need money.  My view is money is important, but same with stories.  Max profit should not be the goal because the product does suffer.  So even if something like Vertigo or Image is outside your comfort, try something out.  Or a Dark Horse or Top Shelf.  There are so much great comics out their and so many gems to fine.  It is just a friendly challenge, let me know what you think of the book you select if you do. I would love to hear a review.
 
Thanks again for replying.  Cheers.
 - Silkcuts
Posted by Mainline
@Silkcuts said:
" @ombla2 said:
" I'm sorry about Wildstorm but i will never abandon DC "
If John goes DC it is because of Greed and that is true.  
I love it.  

This is you in a nutshell. 

1. The misrepresentation of an unresearched statement as fact.
2. The moral condemnation. 
3. The need to just say something truth rather than backing it up. 
 
Much like your, "Fables has never been advertised" declaration... Hellblazer rose while featuring the D.C. bullet, logo, and imprint for half-a-decade.  Hilariously, that wasn't greed... but now it would be.  The "greed" bit has been covered.  You've yet to distinguish how any action under DC is greed based or not except that you personally don't like it and feel justified in calling a creator a sell out, an executive an idiot, or an unrenewed contract immoral... meanwhile, excusing the exact same actions when you've romanticized someone like Levitz (who, I'm sure, NEVER cancelled a book before or canned any writers or editors!).  Finally, "...and that is true", haha.  Rather than relying on substance, or backing it up with evidence, you have to say that something is true?  Why?  Hilarious.  This is like all your delicious attempts to "prove" that DC is greedy by citing your own reading snobbery as credentials or my, supposed but unproved, low brow tastes when they are completely irrelevant.  If you read only 1 book or if you read 1000 it wouldn't affect whether or not DC was greedy.  If I liked only superheroes or if I read every deconstructionalist work out there, it wouldn't affect whether or not DC was greedy. 
 
But, as is your habit, you need to add on irrelevancies "and that is true"... why?  What makes it true?  Because you say it is? 
 
And that, really, is the apparent lesson... because you say DC is greedy, it is.  Because you are such an important fan and because you are turned away.  Forget about the readers who left with Moore, Millar, or Ennis.  Nevermind the fact their profit motive was always transparent.  DC is greedy now because you got hurt.  In sum... nerd rage.
Posted by Silkcuts

I want to add that Jonathan Vankin is another Victim to DC's greed.  Because his Vertigo series financially are not as high and the death of Harvey Pekar, it is obvious DC "laid him off" because he has no more value to them financially. 
 
Pornsak Pichetshote getting laid off was just weird (Stupid). Restructuring or not he has become the best editor Vertigo had.  Looks like he will be joining Alonso at Marvel.  By not looking at the whole picture, Vertigo is suffering and the product is hurting.  DC Comics is caring more about greed over quality of story. Pornsak should of been second safest Vertigo editor after Karen Berger.  With Pornsak gone, I can see Berger is not safe as well.  Is money really the new focus at DC?

Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt

"Greed" is kind of harsh      these companies are run by people liike any other     and people need money to survive.
Posted by Silkcuts
@Avenging-X-Bolt:  Yes they need money, but its a Warner company... its not like why are poor or anything.  Many Indie companies sell a lot less volume and survive.
Posted by kevdude

You could say Marvel is Greedy too since they are making of movies about their characters,  DC has done that some but not as much.  What is wrong with making money??  Nothing so I don't know why some people think its 'bad' to make money.  If we didn't do stuff for money we'd still be living in caves lol and I'll take this over that anyday! 
Posted by Silkcuts
@kevdude:  Like most people, I am assuming you just read the title and not the blog, its cool that is what most people have been doing it seems.  I can agree companies need to make money to survive, but it is Warner we are talking about, they have mad profits every year.  This blog was about how DC Comics care more about overall profits then stories.  This is why Wildstorm is dead and Vertigo has been lackluster over the last few years.  As greedy as Marvel has been, it was not Disney owned most of its life, so it had to money grab to survive.  DC Comics has the cushion room to experiment when people like Jenette Kahn and Levitz were in power.  Once Dan Didio and Jim Lee became co-publishers, DC Comics seems more about profits over stories.  
 
A week after this blog I basically reworked the "Fan rage" and highlighted facts, DC Comics even trimmed out talent like Pornsak in Vertigo. The better written blog about why DC is turning away guys like me slowly is ( HERE).
 
There are brand loyal fans that will stick with companies and get abused... This is me trying to show that comics as a culture are dying and that is what is turning away some fans.  Formulas sell and stories rehashed.... Why read comics if nothing new is explored and the medium not challenged? 
Posted by ValendianKnight

What business ISN'T greedy in one way or another? It's a business, and they have to make money, simple. For me personally, DC is doing great and I'm still enjoying most of their releases. Can't say the same for Marvel or Top Cow though.

Posted by crimsonspider89

Marvel and DC are greedy. Marvel's flagship titles(UXM and Avengers) are downright awful when compared to the lesser known titles. SA, Academy, T-bolts blow Bendisvengers out of the water but he sells due to shock value. XMLegacy and NM are much better reads then UXM but most don't see that. DC is cancelling some of its lesser known titles but its flagships are usually amazing. DC is trying to restructure it self where Marvel has been giving some really good writers and artists more issues to see if they do good but is still in the hands of Loeb, Bendis, Quesada and partially Millar which is not a good thing due to the fact they ignore continuity for there stories to work. DC is trying and will fix itself. I am drastically worried about Marvel though.

Posted by Silkcuts
@crimsonspider89:  I am glad your post gives me the impression you read the blog, some poster I think just read the title and commented.
 
Your right that Marvel is lost, the fans are supporting the wrong books and Marvel is just collecting the money.
 
my problem with DC is that the lesser known titles are being canceled, but a lot of these titles are award winners like Unknown Solider.  Wildstorm and Vertigo are being hurt a lot because of this restricting and it is hurting the overall product.
 
Comics in general is no where near the quality of work it could be.  Instead of pushing the medium to its potential, the big two are rehashing storylines and collecting as much money with little effort.  Mainstream comics I feel are turning away fans, since many readers read because of the characters not the actual quality of the books.  We all know Spider-Man has seen a lot of lows in the last few years, yet he is still a top seller.
 
Because of the money grabbing, there are fans like me being turned away from the mainstream.  I can read Batman because I love Grant Morrison, but will I buy all the Batman related titles... no.
 
The big two need to release quality if they want comics to survive into the future.
Posted by crimsonspider89
@Silkcuts:  100% agreed. Some of the lesser known titles have and will always be better reads. The writer can craft a story just to write a beautiful story, where writers who usually write for the bigger titles writes a story that will sell. One reason why I am excited about Big Time for Spider Man. Looks to be a different Spidey story but done by a writer who seems to write everything just for his enjoyment of writing. Both big dogs need to find a way to keep some of the lesser known comics afloat. I mean, cancelling due to lackluster sales is not an excuse now due to being owned by much bigger companies.
Posted by Silkcuts
@crimsonspider89:  DC has no excuse since Warner owes them, Marvel now has Disney.  Both have the money.  My problem was that there are titles getting canceled because of the "Streamlining", which I saw was Greedy.  Such as Dan Didiot taking back the Vertigo Character.  Madame Xanadu out sold 1/2 of the other Vertigo titles monthlies, but because she is a DCU character and Didiot wanted to make money with her in the main DCU, her book was canceled.
 
I should check out Spider-man Big Time.  I prefer the anthologies, mini-specials and the older books of Spider-Man anyway.  The main book has been a turn off to me for a long time.  Have you read Fever?
Posted by Jake Fury

I hate Marvel's one-shots and crappy limited series they try to pawn off for $3.99 a pop. Greedy bastards.
Posted by pikahyper

evolve or die, most entertainment industries can't or won't evolve. The argument was made a couple years back that, at least for the big two, comic books are only tools for advertisement for their other markets like movies and toys and that would explain why the comics have suffered. Other independent publishers don't have that safety net so they put everything into their comics because it is all they have (other then the occasional movie deal).
 
As far as I'm concerned the cancellation of Unknown Soldier is an outrage, it is a once in a decade book as in only once in a decade do we get a book this god damn good, I have yet to see anyone pick up the book and not love it and the reviews for it have been stellar from both fans and the greats in the industry. DC is turning Vertigo into a sinking ship and nothing is given a chance any more, I doubt even Hellblazer is going to survive especially if he gets married, there are only so many ways they can take it after he gets married, they'll either kill the bride to throw up controversy and try to get more readers or they will putter along for a few issues and then end the book with some bizarre happily ever after ending that will piss everyone off.

Moderator
Posted by Silkcuts
@pikahyper:  Your right! The big two turn fans to indie books because of the lack to "Evolve or die".  DC is really miss handling their products and Vertigo is one of them. I like the stuff that is out, but Unknown Solider has more of a right to be there growing with the pack.  If this "newer" Unknown Solider shows up in the DCU I think I will loose all respect for the new powers that be at DC... I already dislike Dan Didiot a lot.
 
As for Hellblazer... that scare me too that they are not telling us yet, they know the end... I am loving the series and I trust Peter Milligan. The wedding is happening the solicits show it.  But does that mean the end is near?  I hope not.  Spider-Man was marries happily until Joe Q came.  So hopefully Berger can fight off Didiot longer.
 
If Hellblazer is canceled I am giving up on DC Comics, even though I love Grant Morrison and his Batman run is stellar. DC was my fave between the big two because of the fact they pushed comics to grow, now it looks like DC care more about sales "Now" and less about quality stories that will sell "Later".  The Now is just a bandage solution, the Later is the permanent solution, why can't the big two see that.  This is why IDW has already moved into the Big companies with Image and Dark Horse... heck, with the rate Dynamite is growing I can see me reading more of their books... they got the Boys.. which Wildstorm foolishly gave up.  DC comics doesn't know what they are doing right now, they are just following the money trail.
Edited by pikahyper
@Silkcuts said:

" @pikahyper: 
If Hellblazer is canceled I am giving up on DC Comics, even though I love Grant Morrison and his Batman run is stellar. DC was my fave between the big two because of the fact they pushed comics to grow, now it looks like DC care more about sales "Now" and less about quality stories that will sell "Later".  The Now is just a bandage solution, the Later is the permanent solution, why can't the big two see that.  This is why IDW has already moved into the Big companies with Image and Dark Horse... heck, with the rate Dynamite is growing I can see me reading more of their books... they got the Boys.. which Wildstorm foolishly gave up.  DC comics doesn't know what they are doing right now, they are just following the money trail. "

Honestly Batman has been my least favorite Morrison book not sure why really though. 
 
I am shocked at the growth of IDW, I truly am (probably cause I can't stand ben templesmith or ashley wood) but they are really using the transformers, gi joe, and star trek properties to their advantage to grow the entire company. Dynamite has also been improving but they do have a problem with oversaturing when they find a good product, for example the Project Superpowers line it started out good and sales did well and then it just exploded and the spin-offs started and people got bored and moved on and now I'm worried the same is happening to Green Hornet since they are putting out so many books and the movie isn't out until next year and barely anyone even knows about the movie so by the time the movie comes out and people want to check out the comic they will be to overwhelmed with all the titles and just skip it. Don't forget about Boom, Boom is getting pretty big and they have been fairly smart about their business, great mix of licensed titles and original work, all the variants get a little annoying but at least most of them are 50/50 or convention covers.
 
The past two years have really shown that DC is all about the money, just look at Zuda, great concept and it had potential to make a lot of money even though it cost a lot to run, would it have killed them to take the popular zuda books and paid the creators and published them as trades, instead all they did was package them up and give some of them away for free through PSN. Wildstorm going down made even less sense since it was their own fault that the sales were bad, the 2-4 issue reboot that happened by all the big stars from old school Image was a disaster and then they come back with the new version and it was picking up steam and then they did the end of the world crap and there really is only so much you can do with that especially in so many titles. The only thing that kept Wildstorm going these past few years is the licensed properties; Fringe, WoW, God of War, Resident Evil, Gears of War etc and at first they were pretty good but the delays didn't help and eventually they started to suffer and the sales plummeted.
 
Marvel is no better though really they keep rebooting their kids line of comics and those books have always been good just not very popular, then there was the destruction of the ultimate line and a full reboot, the company wide crossovers that never seem to end and never get a break, and the constant cashing in on popular themes like zombies which they have done way beyond death. Marvel also raped all their licensed properties to death i.e. the Stephen King properties and maybe they just took a break in last months previews (I haven't gotten the latest one yet) but it looks like they dropped Soleil which is horrible because almost every Soleil book has been awesome because they were stories that were unique and different. Oh and the variants, lord the variants, the monthly themed almost company wide variants got a little annoying, it was cool when they did all the wolverine and iron man covers but after that it just got out of hand, I will say that some of the variants did have some pretty awesome artwork though.
 
And I know digital comics are the future and all and the big two are trying to embrace them but they are failing miserably, ultimately the high purchase price will kill the entire movement unless they start getting lower or adopt a yearly low single payment subscription method similar to an itunes season pass and it has to be company wide for all titles.
Moderator
Posted by Silkcuts
@pikahyper:  Very well said.  The Indie and smaller companies get to expand and grow because the bigger companies are turning away fans one way or another.  It sucks that the smaller companies get ambitious as well, like that you said about Dynamite. 
 
You don't like Ashley Wood or Ben Templesmith? Both guys I think are great.
Edited by pikahyper
@Silkcuts said:

" @pikahyper:  You don't like Ashley Wood or Ben Templesmith? Both guys I think are great. "

Nope not much of a fan of their "art", I had a big problem with IDW in the early days because they did almost every single book at the time, they rarely gave anyone else a chance and there were so many books that would have been better if they hadn't done them like the silent hill books.
 
And to continue with the digital comics thing I mentioned before I just ran across this, pretty massive news over a month ago and I don't think ComicVine ever mentioned it or any other comic news source I go to.
Moderator
Posted by tensor

it does matter to me ,comics is a  business for entertainment  for ppl ,an since the buyers make the company we should at least get the bang for the buck, they need to stop cutting us short that goes for both companies marvel an dc

Posted by Silkcuts
@pikahyper:  Thanks for the link.  That is interesting.  I was wondering why this place I go to for "overage" books has a lot of DArk Horse on clearance.  Looks like Dark Horse is getting away from paper faster then the big two are.
Posted by pikahyper
@Silkcuts said:
" @pikahyper:  Thanks for the link.  That is interesting.  I was wondering why this place I go to for "overage" books has a lot of DArk Horse on clearance.  Looks like Dark Horse is getting away from paper faster then the big two are. "
Most of the smaller publishers have embraced digital comics pretty thoroughly, Oni was right there at the beginning and IDW and Red 5 have embraced it, the good thing about the smaller publishers is that they are giving as much attention to the digital side as they are to the print side and they know you can't have one without the other and that is another reason their print books aren't suffering like the big two.
Moderator
Posted by Silkcuts
@pikahyper:  Great take.  I really need to get over my dislike for digital comics.  I guess I was raised with the paper feel in my hand, so reading comics on the compute I don't like.
Posted by pikahyper
@Silkcuts:  ya I get what you mean, a lot of people still don't like digital, I've got over 40k paper comics and I've worked in comic stores almost 2/3's of my life so I definitely get the appeal and need for paper but since I spend almost every waking hour in front of a computer I've gotten used to it :P
Moderator
Posted by Squares

A large corporation, greedy? Nooooo.

Posted by N7_Normandy

Don't think so...  sales seem to be doing fine

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