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Posted by InnerVenom123

This is poorly handled as well. Slott wants us to cheer for Ock. Why else would he compare him to characters like Jeff Winger? Jeff's a scumbag, but he's at least amusing and nowhere near the monster that Ock is. But Slott compares the two, because he wants fans of Jeff to say "oh yeah, Ock's kinda cool".

The accessing Peter's memories thing is a travesty. For one thing, living someone's life all at once would cause an irreparable mental breakdown. Ock wouldn't know what was real and what wasn't. It's too stupid for words.

Secondly, Peter Parker is dead now. That's it. He is gone. Not dead and will come back. He's gone. Regardless of a/theistic beliefs, a "soul" is generally considered the sum total of a person's individuality. Their desires, their history, their conscience, their reactions, all of that. That's what makes a person who they are. Ock has all of that. Peter doesn't exist any more. His soul has been raped and absorbed because Slott can't write. When Pete does return, it doesn't matter. Ock has all that makes Peter who he is. This is so much worse than the Ben Reilly fiasco because Ben was always a clone. Ock has all of Pete inside of Pete's body. There's nothing about Peter that is his any more. Nothing.

Dan Slott gave everything away because he wanted to write fanfiction.

Jeff was straight up evil, as far as Community goes (not crazy like Chang - evil), when it started. To the point that Evil Jeff is basically Jeff from episode one. Not that he's anywhere near as bad as Otto, but there's still a bit of a valid comparison there. Otto might learn something as it goes on, like Jeff did. As far as we know, this is only the beginning.

It kind of did, in a way. It broke down Doctor Octopus and created the Superior Spider-man, as far as his mindset goes.

But the Memory/Ghost Peter was Peter's "soul", essentially, just a part unaffected by the initial swipe. If Peter comes back, the part of him that comes back is probably going to be a third fragment of Peter's original brain, one that wasn't stuck in Otto's body or Memory/Ghost Peter. It would be Peter Parker.

Edited by FadeToBlackBolt

@innervenom123 said:

@fadetoblackbolt said:

The issue that I have with Superior isn't so much the whole "villain is winning" thing. That happens all the time. My issue is more with how it's written. The villain isn't winning, he's being rewarded, which is a very different and much worse thing.

I'll use the example of Red Hulk. Before being revealed as Ross, Rulk was just a villain who won a lot. He beat everyone up and loved doing it. That's fine, that's what villains do. However, when it was revealed as Ross, it meant that this guy who had tortured and tormented Banner for years and years, who had laid blame on Banner for something that Banner himself wanted to change, had become exactly what he hated most.

...

And he loved it. He was rewarded, after years of being a vile piece of crap, with an ironic punishment that turned out to be the greatest thing ever. That is an example of poor writing. Not subversive, just poor.

It's the same with Superior Spider-Man.

I think the difference is that Red Hulk's "transformation" was poorly handled, and also played straight. They expected you to love him.

With Otto, it's not being played straight. Otto's a psycho, the book tells you so, through him, and it tries to get you angry at him. It's meant to hurt, like Slott himself said on Twitter, and that's what I think the good part is. They don't just expect you to hate him, they WANT you to hate him.

@fadetoblackbolt said:

Rather than having Doc deal with the same problems that Peter has to, he's just being a Sociopath version of Spider-Man (that's the correct prefix, not Superior), and being lauded for it. It's undoing everything that Peter has done in so many years because the people that cheer for Ock aren't worth saving. At all. And Peter gives his mind, body and soul to these people that don't deserve it.

But if it's just gonna be Otto dealing with Peter's problems instead of being a radically different character, what's the point? It makes sense that Otto would try to change Peter's life, or consider abandoning "Peter Parker" all together.

@fadetoblackbolt said:

By not having all of the supporting cast and other heroes instantly say "hey, that's not Pete", Slott has also undermined Peter as a character. Someone as good natured as Pete is apparently a mask that can be fabricated by a sociopath. It's poor writing. That's the issue more than anything.

And that's not even getting into the memory stealing thing, which is horrendous.

I also think it makes sense that Otto could fool people, because he has access to Peter's memories, and he even pretty much lived his whole life all at once in 700. That's the whole reason he has the memories.

This is poorly handled as well. Slott wants us to cheer for Ock. Why else would he compare him to characters like Jeff Winger? Jeff's a scumbag, but he's at least amusing and nowhere near the monster that Ock is. But Slott compares the two, because he wants fans of Jeff to say "oh yeah, Ock's kinda cool".

The accessing Peter's memories thing is a travesty. For one thing, living someone's life all at once would cause an irreparable mental breakdown. Ock wouldn't know what was real and what wasn't. It's too stupid for words.

Secondly, Peter Parker is dead now. That's it. He is gone. Not dead and will come back. He's gone. Regardless of a/theistic beliefs, a "soul" is generally considered the sum total of a person's individuality. Their desires, their history, their conscience, their reactions, all of that. That's what makes a person who they are. Ock has all of that. Peter doesn't exist any more. His soul has been raped and absorbed because Slott can't write.

When Pete does return, it doesn't matter. Ock has all that makes Peter who he is. This is so much worse than the Ben Reilly fiasco because Ben was always a clone. Ock has all of Pete inside of Pete's body. There's nothing about Peter that is his any more. Nothing.

Dan Slott gave everything away because he wanted to write fanfiction.

Posted by InnerVenom123

@lykopis said:

@innervenom123:

Then I am really, really cheering for the great big fall, lol.

The potential fall keeps getting bigger and bigger with all the crazy tech and help he's getting now.

Two empires clashing, and they belong to Spider-man and the Goblin.

It's gonna be beautiful.

Posted by lykopis

@innervenom123:

Then I am really, really cheering for the great big fall, lol.

Posted by GraniteSoldier

Hhmm...so blowing up known criminals and hangouts, and shooting unarmed prisoners makes someone a hero. So, next time I deploy, and an enemy combatant surrenders, I should blow his f*ckin head off? Well damn, tell the news organizations, we can murder POWs. Oh, wait, murder...yeah...

SpOck is anything from Superior, using Draconian fear methods to keep the public in line is not heroic. They have not touched on it yet, but I see it coming. The city will rebel against SpOck. He himself said he has the responsibility and authority to sit in judgment "of all of you". If his methods are heroic, I should take my duty weapon and start shooting up known gangs in the area. Heroes can break the law, that makes them Superior right?

I am enjoying Superior but for far different reasons. I enjoy it because it makes me so mad. Ock is, was, always will be a villain. He is not a hero, even right now. But villains are supposed to make us mad, aren't they? That's what makes them good villains.

Just my thoughts on the matter, sorry if I seemed combative to anyone.

Online
Edited by InnerVenom123
@lykopis said:

@innervenom123:

Aunt May all fixed up and raring to go.

Having him walk away from MJ because it's the right thing to do -- pursuing a relationship with an intellectual equal with whom he can identify with not just because of genius level mental capability, but also someone who has been degraded and bullied simply due to their physical appearance. Am I supposed to cheer on Ock?

Am I supposed to accept glib attempts at saintifying him because he fixed the little girl? Cleaned out Hell's Kitchen? Has things in tip top shape?

He never fixed her up, he proposed using a creepy cybernetic prosthetic thing and then forgot about it when he started to work on his degree (presumably this will be touched upon later - all the other sub-plots have been. Either that or I missed it.)

No, you're not. Peter begged for Otto to leave MJ alone, and then he begged for Otto to not break up, and then he was amazed Otto didn't have sex with her and relieved that at least he left her alone finally. Anna Marie is on the way to being a victim at this point.

But he was gonna rip the helmet right off her head up until he found out it was his fault. He only did it to make himself feel better. He's not a saint at all and the book says so. All the cleaning up of Hell's Kitchen and all the things he has in tip-top shape are just set-up for a fall, because the Goblin King's empire is growing the more he dispatches crime lords.

Posted by LimboBot

superior spider-man has been awesome thus far. so i Hope it doesn't end soon

Peter will be back don't worry, you should be worried if it was any other insignificant character.

Posted by HeckTate

I like Superior Spider-man and the concept of it. and If Parker comes back i'm dropping the book.

This. I'm not gonna argue for which one is the better Spider-Man (the character) because frankly, I don't care who makes a better superhero. I read this because the story is more interesting than the basic formulaic superhero stuff. This is something new and interesting, I don't need any more subscriptions to the same played-out "I need to find a balance between my personal life and my superhero life" stuff.

Posted by TheAcidSkull

@theacidskull said:

Maybe Peter Did call otto out but that doesn't change that he was reduced to a cry baby man-child at his moment of truth . how awesome it have been if uncle ben came at that time, put his hand on peters back and give peter the Motivation to win? but no lest destroy peter.

Uncle Ben was already "dead" by that point, but I assume you're talking about changing the order of the plot around to make that work anyway. Peter was appropriately crushed by Otto's low-blow, nothing like a cry-baby.

Anyway, there's no point in arguing this point further, because it just comes down to "I didn't want this part to happen" VS "But it had to."

Thankfully we're nice people and kept it civil. :P

lets just leave at it that. we won't agree on this anyways right?

and yes, thankfully we kept it Civil, and thank you for being understanding :P

Edited by InnerVenom123

Maybe Peter Did call otto out but that doesn't change that he was reduced to a cry baby man-child at his moment of truth . how awesome it have been if uncle ben came at that time, put his hand on peters back and give peter the Motivation to win? but no lest destroy peter.

Uncle Ben was already "dead" by that point, but I assume you're talking about changing the order of the plot around to make that work anyway. Peter was appropriately crushed by Otto's low-blow, nothing like a cry-baby.

Anyway, there's no point in arguing this point further, because it just comes down to "I didn't want this part to happen" VS "But it had to."

Thankfully we're nice people and kept it civil. :P

Edited by lykopis

@innervenom123:

Appreciate the link. Doesn't really address the issue in its entirety -- I just read 8 to 10 again and I am left with the same feeling. You have SpOck ready to tear the neu-whatsis from a little girl's head because he wants to get to the bottom of the fragment residue of Peter -- not quite caring it's on a little girl's head but then he becomes contrite because he discovers she was in that condition due to him the year before? Then he performs brain surgery or whatever, and becomes the hero? Then, while battling Peter in his mind, images like Uncle Ben is thrown up and we see Peter not just forgetting his uncle, but everyone -- even himself? Then we have Doc Ock declaring he deserves to be Spider Man?

There are other things that get on my nerves -- Slott's attempts to make Ock better than Peter even in his own personal life and I am not talking about MJ or failing to get a doctorate -- but even in having Aunt May all fixed up and raring to go. Slott tried too hard -- and is still trying too hard in my opinion. Having him walk away from MJ because it's the right thing to do -- pursuing a relationship with an intellectual equal with whom he can identify with not just because of genius level mental capability, but also someone who has been degraded and bullied simply due to their physical appearance. Am I supposed to cheer on Ock? Am I supposed to accept glib attempts at saintifying him because he fixed the little girl? Cleaned out Hell's Kitchen? Has things in tip top shape?

These are the questions that confuse me because it's not coming across -- and this is to a new reader, mind you. I am not a Spidey-fan-girl -- I never read Spider-Man until just before this whole thing started and if you asked me what I thought Peter was, I would have told you he's an awkward, socially reticent guy who can be pretty funny but inappropriate (not on purpose) and who despite set-backs both small and huge, carved out a name for himself as Peter Parker and also, as a super-hero. I don't have any of the emotion I suppose of other people who are unhappy with what Slott is doing and has done, but I do feel their criticisms are warranted.

I would enjoy the ride if I could, but I can't. Frankly, and I say this sincerely, the stories just aren't that good.

Posted by InnerVenom123
Edited by w0nd

@lvenger: I agree with putting peter back where he started, it seems like that is what they are doing. But he accomplished so much to take away literally everything is kind of depressing, that's why I hope out of all of this chaos otto actually does get peter his "doctor" title, and him actually going to see aunt may seems like it's done some good. All the good he's done with Kaine, with his scientific career, with the avengers, is just depressing to think of, especially Kaine.

Edited by bob808

Superior Spider-man Forever!

Posted by TheCheeseStabber

Wait the news just broke

So is Peter returning errr?

Posted by Deranged Midget

@lvenger said:

My pleasure as per usual mate. Editors are the bane of creativity and character development many times in the comic book industry. JMS' run is one of my favourites too but he made some mistakes. Sins Past for one. And it was the editors there that muddied the water by changing Gwen's kids from having Peter as their father to Gwen having an illegitimate fling with Norman Osborn.

There's absolutely no disputing that every writer has their low points with a run or a specific character in general. Sins Past was an uncalled arc, both in terms of characterization and timing in my opinion. Like you said, editors are devilishly apprehensive of the products and the writers they look over. Apparently, most seem to like to play it safe or keep boundaries restricted to a certain creative level. It could be what's scaring away writers from DC.

Moderator
Edited by Strider92


@theacidskull said:

damages the mythos.

If you're referring to issue 9, the most misunderstood issue, please read this:

http://www.newsarama.com/17743-dan-slott-details-peter-parker-s-superior-spider-man-9-plight.html

Otherwise I don't know what you mean aside from maybe that you're trying to think of a fancier way to say "I don't like it."


I fail to see how this makes it misunderstood or excuses the fact it basically destroyed years of character development. Peter has been prepared to throw away his life for far less than a single child's life (he's taken bullets for murderers in the past) but suddenly he's quite happy to see a child die to save his own skin? Sorry but thats utter crap and if you think its just a misunderstood issue then you and me have been reading an entirely different Spider-man for the past 50 years.

Online
Posted by Lvenger

First off, thank you!

I think that's always been the intentions for the character though, despite who the writer is what their intentions may be. Just take a look at the character's history. Despite what JMS did with the character in his run (which is arguably one of my favourites), the editorial team had a large hand in what resulted afterwards despite the build-up that the writer had with the character. I think we can agree that Slott with his time on Spider-Man has written some pretty amazing stories but we have no idea how much editorial gets to dig their hand in and juggle the story whichever way they want for the sake of sales.

My pleasure as per usual mate. Editors are the bane of creativity and character development many times in the comic book industry. JMS' run is one of my favourites too but he made some mistakes. Sins Past for one. And it was the editors there that muddied the water by changing Gwen's kids from having Peter as their father to Gwen having an illegitimate fling with Norman Osborn.

Online
Edited by Deranged Midget

@lvenger said:

To pick apart all of that well written post would take me some time but I would like to point out something to you mate. Doesn't all of what you've written here indicate that Slott and Quesqada (I blame OMD and Brand New Day on his head) want to regress the character back? Back to how Stan Lee depicted him originally? As someone with few friends who was alienated by everyone and ridiculed at his job? Who couldn't get a girl? Via Superior, Slott is fulfilling that. When Peter comes back, he'll be, for lack of a better word the same character he was upon his original creation. Tell me, does that speak a great deal to the quality of writing Slott is delivering if he can't think of anything else to do but revert the character back to how he was originally?

First off, thank you!

I think that's always been the intentions for the character though, despite who the writer is what their intentions may be. Just take a look at the character's history. Despite what JMS did with the character in his run (which is arguably one of my favourites), the editorial team had a large hand in what resulted afterwards despite the build-up that the writer had with the character. I think we can agree that Slott with his time on Spider-Man has written some pretty amazing stories but we have no idea how much editorial gets to dig their hand in and juggle the story whichever way they want for the sake of sales.

Moderator
Posted by TheAcidSkull

@innervenom123: look you understand why i hate it so much, i've seen the link, and i'm still mad. Maybe Peter Did call otto out but that doesn't change that he was reduced to a cry baby man-child at his moment of truth . how awesome it have been if uncle ben came at that time, put his hand on peters back and give peter the Motivation to win? but no lest destroy peter.

he'll come back but it's still making me angry.

Posted by evilvegeta74

@lykopis said:

I appreciate your affection for SpOck, but I disagree with you. A psychotic serial killer has taken over the life of a hero and has no remorse, and further to that, thinks it's okay to carry on and enjoy all the benefits of said hero without having put in the time?

Just the premise of the book is so wrong. Spider-Man - for all intents and purposes has been murdered. Murdered and humiliated and discarded and in his place is one of the most villainous characters ever to have appeared in Marvel.

So no. There is not a tiny bit of evil in SpOck, there is a LOT. Witty and clever can be found in many an evil person but it shouldn't be enough to convince anyone the completele take-over of a beloved fan favourite is justified.

No disrespect meant.

Posted by Lvenger

@innervenom123: It made Peter seem like a selfish jerk thought. Someone who'd prioritise himself over others when Peter's always put the needs of others before his own personal desires. His desire to pursue a romance, to get better grades and to make more of himself came at the expense of his responsibility of being Spider-Man and helping others. That's what I don't like.

@deranged_midget To pick apart all of that well written post would take me some time but I would like to point out something to you mate. Doesn't all of what you've written here indicate that Slott and Quesqada (I blame OMD and Brand New Day on his head) want to regress the character back? Back to how Stan Lee depicted him originally? As someone with few friends who was alienated by everyone and ridiculed at his job? Who couldn't get a girl? Via Superior, Slott is fulfilling that. When Peter comes back, he'll be, for lack of a better word the same character he was upon his original creation. Tell me, does that speak a great deal to the quality of writing Slott is delivering if he can't think of anything else to do but revert the character back to how he was originally?

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Posted by InnerVenom123

@lvenger: But he didn't act on it. At all. Otto just examined the thought and guilted Peter with it. Peter has a guilt complex. It was a cheap shot on Otto's part and that's how he won.

Edited by Lvenger

http://www.newsarama.com/17743-dan-slott-details-peter-parker-s-superior-spider-man-9-plight.html

It's that one moment where he goes, "I knew the minute you did that, you'd get that helmet, and I'd be on your radar, and I'd be in trouble. And for a moment, I hesitated." In the end, he doesn't. But he has that moment. Maybe it was for a nanosecond. Maybe it was for a billionth of a nanosecond. But it was there.

There's a legion of fans that have grown up with Peter — especially the last 20 years — where they look at Peter Parker as a paragon of humanity. As a saint, who would nevermake the wrong choice. Would never do anything less than true heroism. Who wouldnever have a dark thought or impulse — even for a billionth of a nanosecond. Somewhere down the line, people starting thinking of Pete as Steve Rogers with spider-powers.

The problem with what Slott is saying here though is that no matter for how many billionth of a nanoseconds that thought may have been there for, Peter would never act upon it. Not a choice as starkly wrong as stopping a little girl from dying. It was in that moment in Superior 9 that Slott desecrated (you may not like me using this word Dan but for me that's what it was) the core of Peter Parker's character and had him act in such a way that is alien to who Peter Parker is.

Online
Edited by InnerVenom123

http://www.newsarama.com/17743-dan-slott-details-peter-parker-s-superior-spider-man-9-plight.html

It's that one moment where he goes, "I knew the minute you did that, you'd get that helmet, and I'd be on your radar, and I'd be in trouble. And for a moment, I hesitated." In the end, he doesn't. But he has that moment. Maybe it was for a nanosecond. Maybe it was for a billionth of a nanosecond. But it was there.

There's a legion of fans that have grown up with Peter — especially the last 20 years — where they look at Peter Parker as a paragon of humanity. As a saint, who would nevermake the wrong choice. Would never do anything less than true heroism. Who wouldnever have a dark thought or impulse — even for a billionth of a nanosecond. Somewhere down the line, people starting thinking of Pete as Steve Rogers with spider-powers.

Please read that full article. I think it sort of clears this whole thing up pretty nicely.

@theacidskull

@innervenom123:

But then there's the fact that Slott makes everything so damn easy for Spock, he is awesome at everything because F*ck you that's why. Seriously, this is slotts reasoning. I also don't buy the fact that Ock, as smart as he is, would have been a better spider-man than peter Parker has been his entire life. Or a More efficient one. WE KNOW it's not true but slott tried very hard to to make us like spock by making him "AWESOME" in every aspect of the word. Yeah he's arrogant, but still gets his damn way.


He's not awesome at everything. He has poor people skills. He's angering his boss, he couldn't work with his professor without (I forget her name - his tutor/classmate)'s help. He also saw his former colleagues in a new light (Vulture) and it clearly affected him when he hit a child on accident. But even then, anything else that's easy for him is setting him up for a fall. Even how he's supposedly a better Spider-man; all he's doing is making the Goblin King's empire bigger. The story is so aware of what it's doing.

i immensely dislike how slott is killing off spider-mans villains whereas he could actually take the damn f*cking time to enrich them like he did with Rhino, WHICH i By the way, enjoyed very much. It also comes across as that Mary jane, and everyone around peter Parker is an absolute moron, to the point where they don't even notice how Drastically he has changed. Sure they say, OH HE IS DIFFERENT but they do absolutely nothing about it, and they don't even try to dig into it, BUT CARLIE KNOWS BECAUSE SHE IS AWESOME AND SHE needs to be shoehorned in out eyes, while MJ , someone who knows peter parker from head to toe is to busy being a damsel in distress.

Slott's only killed off like four of five at the very most. Montana, pre Superior, which doesn't matter in the slightest. Then there was Massacre, who was created by Slott as an insert for Joker to allow for a "Why doesn't Batman just kill the Joker?" plot - which I love, by the way. So he really doesn't count. - he killed Rhino, which made sense for the character. He killed Silver Sable, who no one will miss, and might come back anyway according to Madame Web, unless she was lying. If there's more remind me, I forget.

Also, Slott didn't develop Rhino, Joe Kelly did.

They're aware of a change. It's just that, to US, and to Memory/Ghost Peter, it's so obvious that it's painful. To them, the idea of a brainswapped supervillain living in Peter's body is a crazy idea. Mary Jane kept rejecting Otto because she knew something was up, Memory/Ghost Peter even said this, because she was his SOULMATE she could tell. That's more of a compliment to MJ than anything.

Carlie isn't being mary sued, she's just the only one who heard Peter claim he was Peter in Ock's body, and she can't go around talking about that because people will think she's a crazy person. She needs evidence. That's ... pretty much a totally natural development, considering she's a cop.

MJ was only a damsel in distress once, not the entire time.

in this issue, slott makes it so that otto, is more worthy of being spider-man than peter parker, and why is that? because peter parker is the best hero in the universe of course, why else wouldn't he be worthy of being spider-man? because otto kills, and makes others safe by doing so, he is THEREFORE SOMEHOW more responsible than peter parker, who in case you didn't know, is the greatest hero in the marvel universe.

And To add insult to injury, slott does something that basically makes peter parker a jerk and an a$$. Honestly, this was simply unforgivable. So Peter Parker, the greatest hero in the MU, risks a little girls life to save himself, yes, you heard me right. In the previous issue, Pete tried to interfere with otto when he was operating on the sick little girl, because he thought otto could have discovered him, therefore, in order not to risk his own hide, peter, the greatest hero in the marvel universe, someone who has risked his life a billion times, was too worried about himself too even consider that the little girl could have died...

Slott illustrated that Otto isn't a hero like Peter in 9. There's a point where, as Doctor Octopus, Otto runs away from Peter and Peter calls him out on his cowardice.

I keep having to share this link, but it really is worth it. Peter Parker isn't the ultimate moral paragon, and he never seriously considered hurting the girl. Otto just took advantage of his guilt complex and won out that way.

http://www.newsarama.com/17743-dan-slott-details-peter-parker-s-superior-spider-man-9-plight.html

why didn't peter imagine the Avengers, fantastic four, etc etc when Ock imagined the sinister Six to fight peter Parker and his loved ones? oh right, because....mhhh there doesn't seem to be a reason.

Half of the Avengers are just Peter's friends, but besides that; he was just imagining the people closest to him. It was supposed to be a personal thing.

...

But hey, Otto brought in Crime Master instead of Venom, and I can let that slide.

Posted by InnerVenom123

@innervenom I like the sound of the female venom!! What writer thought of that and why didnt it happen?

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2006/05/11/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-50/

They thought that the idea of a woman being physically threatening wouldn't take, so it got rejected. Sh*tty reason, especially considering that Spider-man has next to no female villains, but that's what happened.

Well said, mate.

Thanks. Long posts are difficult for me.

The issue that I have with Superior isn't so much the whole "villain is winning" thing. That happens all the time. My issue is more with how it's written. The villain isn't winning, he's being rewarded, which is a very different and much worse thing.

I'll use the example of Red Hulk. Before being revealed as Ross, Rulk was just a villain who won a lot. He beat everyone up and loved doing it. That's fine, that's what villains do. However, when it was revealed as Ross, it meant that this guy who had tortured and tormented Banner for years and years, who had laid blame on Banner for something that Banner himself wanted to change, had become exactly what he hated most.

...

And he loved it. He was rewarded, after years of being a vile piece of crap, with an ironic punishment that turned out to be the greatest thing ever. That is an example of poor writing. Not subversive, just poor.

It's the same with Superior Spider-Man.

I think the difference is that Red Hulk's "transformation" was poorly handled, and also played straight. They expected you to love him.

With Otto, it's not being played straight. Otto's a psycho, the book tells you so, through him, and it tries to get you angry at him. It's meant to hurt, like Slott himself said on Twitter, and that's what I think the good part is. They don't just expect you to hate him, they WANT you to hate him.

Rather than having Doc deal with the same problems that Peter has to, he's just being a Sociopath version of Spider-Man (that's the correct prefix, not Superior), and being lauded for it. It's undoing everything that Peter has done in so many years because the people that cheer for Ock aren't worth saving. At all. And Peter gives his mind, body and soul to these people that don't deserve it.

But if it's just gonna be Otto dealing with Peter's problems instead of being a radically different character, what's the point? It makes sense that Otto would try to change Peter's life, or consider abandoning "Peter Parker" all together.

By not having all of the supporting cast and other heroes instantly say "hey, that's not Pete", Slott has also undermined Peter as a character. Someone as good natured as Pete is apparently a mask that can be fabricated by a sociopath. It's poor writing. That's the issue more than anything.

And that's not even getting into the memory stealing thing, which is horrendous.

I also think it makes sense that Otto could fool people, because he has access to Peter's memories, and he even pretty much lived his whole life all at once in 700. That's the whole reason he has the memories.

Posted by Deranged Midget

I think that's the entire point of Superior though. Throughout the years, what has Peter's character done to resonate with readers more so than any other character? What was the greatest threat that he consistently had to face until only a few years ago? His struggles with life itself. His eagerness and persistent failures at landing jobs or holding an apartment connected with younger readers around the world because they could relate to that.

Recently with Horizon, his luck began to flourish and utilize his gifted talents for better uses. He better geared himself and had more than enough money to support anything he wanted. With that, one of the most comparable parts of the character began to drift away. Peter had almost anything he wanted. He had a girlfriend, whether it was MJ or Carlie, he had money, an apartment, the city loved him, he was a well-known and applauded Avenger.

While I don't agree with everything going on in Superior, I feel that the entire purpose of the series is for Ock to rip away Peter's reputation, everything he built for, the trust of the city and his teammates. So when Peter eventually makes his return, he's starting off from rock bottom. We'll most likely see him desperately trying to prove his innocence without exposing his identity, trying to rebuild those past friendships with colleagues as both Peter Parker and Spider-Man. The one thing most endearing about Peter's character was not the times when he was at the top of the mountain but the complete opposite. Seeing Peter struggle to juggle his double life, to face criticism from the people he protects on a daily basis and to make a name for himself has always been infinitely more interesting than the life Peter created following Big Time.

Quite frankly, this has been the most "interesting" turn of events to happen to the character since well... his death and rebirth in The Other. Yeah, perhaps the execution can be better handled at some points but for a second, wouldn't you think that MAY be Slott's intention? To make you HATE everything that Ock is doing to the character. For you to despise every misturn of events that may occur, every disgusting act that Ock may perform or the wrongs he may commit against those closest in Peter's life. You can't help but cringe at those moments because you know how hard Peter may have worked to achieve those things in his life and it's all crumbling apart, one by one.

Spider-Man is my favourite super-hero of all time alongside Superman. He was my inspiration growing up as a child. I studied him, even learned from best I could. It's utterly painful to see my favourite hero go down so brutally and to arguably his greatest villain in such a vile way. But honestly, how many times have we clamoured about seeing some new and "innovative" ideas originate from a recurring character? I'm not saying this was the ideal path to be taken, but it is different and for the first time, we have no idea where it may lead. I find that to be intriguing to say the very least.

Truthfully, we all know Peter will return in due time. In the meantime, I'm giving the title the benefit of the doubt.

Moderator
Edited by lykopis

@fodigg: Oh no, I completely get what you are saying. I think, if anything, what pushed it too far in my mind was issue #9. It's one thing to disagree with Doc Ock taking over, but the way Peter was depicted in that particular issue -- it killed it for me.

I am confident Peter will be back. I just think had Slott kept it in the lines of Peter staying in character (as odd as that sounds) whilst floating about in Ock's mind, I would have been more able to stomach it. The whole wanting the little girl to die so as to not be discovered by Ock, kind of thing.

You make fair points. (I am bouncing off your post too - not so much directing my comments your way specifically.) :)

Posted by i_like_swords

From what I can tell, it's merely a strategy in order to make sales.

Everyone knows Spider-Man already. Not everyone is going to want to buy a Spider-Man comic because they imagine that they'll only be seeing the same thing they've seen in the movies or something. I have had this mindset before.

So, in combination with Marvel Now, they release a new, edgier version of Peter Parker and title it "Superior" in order to bring readers in.

So now we have a bunch of pissed off Spider-Man fans who don't buy the comic, a few who are able to accept it and move on, new readers who have only heard of Spider-Man LOVING the book, and the select few who either buy it or don't from a comic book standpoint.

So Superior should have sold pretty well thusfar, while pissing off just about 90% of the devout Peter Parker fans. What's next?

Bring Peter Parker back in the most exciting way they can think of, by introducing him back in a Superior comic. Current readers who came for Superior might now transition back to the original, while the 90% of pissed off fans will hop right back on and read their favourite guy again.

So, essentially

- Creating a temporary, new edgy Spider-Man to attract new readers and piss off old ones

- Bring back Peter in a huge way to keep the new readers interested as well as have the fans of the original flock back.

That's just my rough prediction. Me personally? I didn't like the look of it so I never bought it. I'm waiting for Peters return so I can start reading him again. It didn't necessarily bother me, but I haven't been reading comics terribly long.

Posted by TheAcidSkull
Posted by Lvenger

@innervenom123:

by now you should know that i don't HATE something if i don't really like it.

First things first. It's one thing to let the villain win and take over the hero, it could have actually worked out if for example dock ock had set out and tried to destroy peter parkers reputation, but no, a Crazy killer, decided that he would become a hero because he saw memories that weren't even his. OK fine, this is comics so i can buy that.

But then there's the fact that Slott makes everything so damn easy for Spock, he is awesome at everything because F*ck you that's why. Seriously, this is slotts reasoning. I also don't buy the fact that Ock, as smart as he is, would have been a better spider-man than peter Parker has been his entire life. Or a More efficient one. WE KNOW it's not true but slott tried very hard to to make us like spock by making him "AWESOME" in every aspect of the word. Yeah he's arrogant, but still gets his damn way.

i immensely dislike how slott is killing off spider-mans villains whereas he could actually take the damn f*cking time to enrich them like he did with Rhino, WHICH i By the way, enjoyed very much. It also comes across as that Mary jane, and everyone around peter Parker is an absolute moron, to the point where they don't even notice how Drastically he has changed. Sure they say, OH HE IS DIFFERENT but they do absolutely nothing about it, and they don't even try to dig into it, BUT CARLIE KNOWS BECAUSE SHE IS AWESOME AND SHE needs to be shoehorned in out eyes, while MJ , someone who knows peter parker from head to toe is to busy being a damsel in distress.

Read the next paragraph carefully otherwise it could be misunderstood as i am not always capable of stating my mind.

then slott had the bright idea of coming out with Issue 9.

in this issue, slott makes it so that otto, is more worthy of being spider-man than peter parker, and why is that? because peter parker is the best hero in the universe of course, why else wouldn't he be worthy of being spider-man? because otto kills, and makes others safe by doing so, he is THEREFORE SOMEHOW more responsible than peter parker, who in case you didn't know, is the greatest hero in the marvel universe.

And To add insult to injury, slott does something that basically makes peter parker a jerk and an a$$. Honestly, this was simply unforgivable. So Peter Parker, the greatest hero in the MU, risks a little girls life to save himself, yes, you heard me right. In the previous issue, Pete tried to interfere with otto when he was operating on the sick little girl, because he thought otto could have discovered him, therefore, in order not to risk his own hide, peter, the greatest hero in the marvel universe, someone who has risked his life a billion times, was too worried about himself too even consider that the little girl could have died...

Terrible. Simply terrible.

why didn't peter imagine the Avengers, fantastic four, etc etc when Ock imagined the sinister Six to fight peter Parker and his loved ones? oh right, because....mhhh there doesn't seem to be a reason.

This was horrible and simply painful, it hurt me, mentally and physically. it's horrible.

My thoughts on Superior summed up in a nutshell

Online
Edited by fodigg

@lykopis said:

I appreciate your affection for SpOck, but I disagree with you. A psychotic serial killer has taken over the life of a hero and has no remorse, and further to that, thinks it's okay to carry on and enjoy all the benefits of said hero without having put in the time?

Just the premise of the book is so wrong. Spider-Man - for all intents and purposes has been murdered. Murdered and humiliated and discarded and in his place is one of the most villainous characters ever to have appeared in Marvel.

So no. There is not a tiny bit of evil in SpOck, there is a LOT. Witty and clever can be found in many an evil person but it shouldn't be enough to convince anyone the completele take-over of a beloved fan favourite is justified.

No disrespect meant.

I don't disagree with anything you said and yet that's why I find this approach so interesting. We all know the classic Parker will come back, so that doesn't worry me. I'm willing to wait that out and be entertained by the slow destruction of Otto Parker.

I don't think it's correct that Otto is being pushed as actually "superior" in the text. He has a different way of doing things, but not everything is good. The spider-bots are a perfect example: they've allowed Otto to keep better tab on the entire city, sure, but his reliance on them has also made him blind to a dangerous group that has them compromised. I like that it's opened a discussion on effectiveness vs. morality on the killing question. Peter Parker coming back from the dead to take back his life will be the ultimate resounding response that killing isn't an ultimate solution, in my opinion.

And honestly, I wouldn't want the Superior Spider-Man's efforts to all come to ruin. That would be preachy and uninteresting. When Peter returns, there should be an evaluation period where he looks at the merits of the two approaches and sees what works and what doesn't. There should be some things that Otto did better heroically, professionally, and personally.

(Sorry I know that wasn't all responding to you, just kind of keying off your post to gather my thoughts.)

Posted by FadeToBlackBolt

@innervenom123 said:

@fadetoblackbolt said:

@innervenom123 said:

I still don't understand how you can actually be emotionally affected by Superior Spider-man.

Peter Parker is f**king immortal. Like, literally. This is so clearly a short-term thing. It's so clearly meant to be painful to fans, and it so clearly knows what it's doing.

I don't get it.

Why can't you just enjoy Spock's wild ride?

Like how you enjoyed Mac as Venom? =P

Good point, but...

This is a mess of an answer so bare with me but, Eddie Brock's not nearly as solid as Peter Parker is. He's like 15 different characters split among the years. I used to rant and rave and get mad but there came a point where I just sort of accepted that he was never solid to begin with. He was written one way in one story and then he'd change entirely by the next time he showed up, and then a few story arcs later he's an anti-hero, and then in the next story arc he's a goofball, and then in the next he's a f**king monster. No one could decide what to do with him, and as a result he wasn't one character anymore. Which is why they tried to clear the slate and make Mac into Venom, but then someone thought Venom would be better as a goofball again so they went with that. For the record, I always liked Thunderbolts's version of him, even if I'd rant and rave about being mad. I can appreciate what they did. Sinister Spider-man was also good.

THAT'S RIGHT FOLKS. I JUST ADMITTED THERE ARE PARTS OF GARGAN I APPRECIATE. SH*T IS REAL IN THIS THREAD.

Eddie was only created because no one thought a female villain could work (and the female version of Venom's origin is better - it was gonna be this pregnant woman who gets in a car crash because her husband sees Spider-man swinging as he's driving and he loses control of the car, so she loses her baby and then the symbiote finds her. In case you didn't know.)

Peter's got a rock solid foundation and he's Marvel's flagship character. Eddie doesn't matter in the grand scheme.

Peter will be back. It's 100% assured.

Eddie coming back wasn't a sure thing at all. No one liked him. They wanted him out. At the time that was upsetting because I liked him for what I thought was a solid character. These days I just sort of see him as the version I like t hat I've cobbled together from a collage of different Eddies, the crazy psycho who lies to himself and isn't actually a nice person, but still.

That's the difference.

Well said, mate.

The issue that I have with Superior isn't so much the whole "villain is winning" thing. That happens all the time. My issue is more with how it's written. The villain isn't winning, he's being rewarded, which is a very different and much worse thing.

I'll use the example of Red Hulk. Before being revealed as Ross, Rulk was just a villain who won a lot. He beat everyone up and loved doing it. That's fine, that's what villains do. However, when it was revealed as Ross, it meant that this guy who had tortured and tormented Banner for years and years, who had laid blame on Banner for something that Banner himself wanted to change, had become exactly what he hated most.

...

And he loved it. He was rewarded, after years of being a vile piece of crap, with an ironic punishment that turned out to be the greatest thing ever. That is an example of poor writing. Not subversive, just poor.

It's the same with Superior Spider-Man. Rather than having Doc deal with the same problems that Peter has to, he's just being a Sociopath version of Spider-Man (that's the correct prefix, not Superior), and being lauded for it. It's undoing everything that Peter has done in so many years because the people that cheer for Ock aren't worth saving. At all. And Peter gives his mind, body and soul to these people that don't deserve it. By not having all of the supporting cast and other heroes instantly say "hey, that's not Pete", Slott has also undermined Peter as a character. Someone as good natured as Pete is apparently a mask that can be fabricated by a sociopath. It's poor writing. That's the issue more than anything.

And that's not even getting into the memory stealing thing, which is horrendous.

Edited by TheAcidSkull

@innervenom123:

by now you should know that i don't HATE something if i don't really like it.

First things first. It's one thing to let the villain win and take over the hero, it could have actually worked out if for example dock ock had set out and tried to destroy peter parkers reputation, but no, a Crazy killer, decided that he would become a hero because he saw memories that weren't even his. OK fine, this is comics so i can buy that.

But then there's the fact that Slott makes everything so damn easy for Spock, he is awesome at everything because F*ck you that's why. Seriously, this is slotts reasoning. I also don't buy the fact that Ock, as smart as he is, would have been a better spider-man than peter Parker has been his entire life. Or a More efficient one. WE KNOW it's not true but slott tried very hard to to make us like spock by making him "AWESOME" in every aspect of the word. Yeah he's arrogant, but still gets his damn way.

i immensely dislike how slott is killing off spider-mans villains whereas he could actually take the damn f*cking time to enrich them like he did with Rhino, WHICH i By the way, enjoyed very much. It also comes across as that Mary jane, and everyone around peter Parker is an absolute moron, to the point where they don't even notice how Drastically he has changed. Sure they say, OH HE IS DIFFERENT but they do absolutely nothing about it, and they don't even try to dig into it, BUT CARLIE KNOWS BECAUSE SHE IS AWESOME AND SHE needs to be shoehorned in out eyes, while MJ , someone who knows peter parker from head to toe is to busy being a damsel in distress.

Read the next paragraph carefully otherwise it could be misunderstood as i am not always capable of stating my mind.

then slott had the bright idea of coming out with Issue 9.

in this issue, slott makes it so that otto, is more worthy of being spider-man than peter parker, and why is that? because peter parker is the best hero in the universe of course, why else wouldn't he be worthy of being spider-man? because otto kills, and makes others safe by doing so, he is THEREFORE SOMEHOW more responsible than peter parker, who in case you didn't know, is the greatest hero in the marvel universe.

And To add insult to injury, slott does something that basically makes peter parker a jerk and an a$$. Honestly, this was simply unforgivable. So Peter Parker, the greatest hero in the MU, risks a little girls life to save himself, yes, you heard me right. In the previous issue, Pete tried to interfere with otto when he was operating on the sick little girl, because he thought otto could have discovered him, therefore, in order not to risk his own hide, peter, the greatest hero in the marvel universe, someone who has risked his life a billion times, was too worried about himself too even consider that the little girl could have died...

Terrible. Simply terrible.

why didn't peter imagine the Avengers, fantastic four, etc etc when Ock imagined the sinister Six to fight peter Parker and his loved ones? oh right, because....mhhh there doesn't seem to be a reason.

This was horrible and simply painful, it hurt me, mentally and physically. it's horrible.

Edited by The_jackolantern

@innervenom I like the sound of the female venom!! What writer thought of that and why didnt it happen?

Posted by krspaceT

Depends on how the return is handled. It needs to be dramatic, well written and a true reconstruction of what it means to be Spiderman.....

Wonder if Bendis is avaliable to do it

Posted by spinningbirdcake

It saddens me that people who supposedly "love" Spider-Man can simply replace the core character. This is worse then when Dick became Batman when Bruce died.

Not to get off track but I thought Dick becoming Batman was fantastic. I'm starting to think most comic book fans just get annoyed by change in general. The character has been around for a very very very long time and Superior Spider-Man is a story I can honestly say I haven't read before. I'll take that over the same stuff everyday anytime. Whatever that makes me I'm okay with that.

Posted by The_jackolantern

No it is completely different being a comic book fan and throwing your toys out of your pram any time something happens in a comic you dont like. And that is whaf I called a "nerd rage"!!

So I think I found that leg you were talking bout

Edited by InnerVenom123

@fadetoblackbolt said:

@innervenom123 said:

I still don't understand how you can actually be emotionally affected by Superior Spider-man.

Peter Parker is f**king immortal. Like, literally. This is so clearly a short-term thing. It's so clearly meant to be painful to fans, and it so clearly knows what it's doing.

I don't get it.

Why can't you just enjoy Spock's wild ride?

Like how you enjoyed Mac as Venom? =P

Good point, but...

This is a mess of an answer so bare with me but, Eddie Brock's not nearly as solid as Peter Parker is. He's like 15 different characters split among the years. I used to rant and rave and get mad but there came a point where I just sort of accepted that he was never solid to begin with. He was written one way in one story and then he'd change entirely by the next time he showed up, and then a few story arcs later he's an anti-hero, and then in the next story arc he's a goofball, and then in the next he's a f**king monster. No one could decide what to do with him, and as a result he wasn't one character anymore. Which is why they tried to clear the slate and make Mac into Venom, but then someone thought Venom would be better as a goofball again so they went with that. For the record, I always liked Thunderbolts's version of him, even if I'd rant and rave about being mad. I can appreciate what they did. Sinister Spider-man was also good.

THAT'S RIGHT FOLKS. I JUST ADMITTED THERE ARE PARTS OF GARGAN I APPRECIATE. SH*T IS REAL IN THIS THREAD.

Eddie was only created because no one thought a female villain could work (and the female version of Venom's origin is better - it was gonna be this pregnant woman who gets in a car crash because her husband sees Spider-man swinging as he's driving and he loses control of the car, so she loses her baby and then the symbiote finds her. In case you didn't know.)

Peter's got a rock solid foundation and he's Marvel's flagship character. Eddie doesn't matter in the grand scheme.

Peter will be back. It's 100% assured.

Eddie coming back wasn't a sure thing at all. No one liked him. They wanted him out. At the time that was upsetting because I liked him for what I thought was a solid character. These days I just sort of see him as the version I like t hat I've cobbled together from a collage of different Eddies, the crazy psycho who lies to himself and isn't actually a nice person, but still.

That's the difference.

Posted by Exia009

I'll preface what I'm about to say with this: I've never read a Peter Parker Spider-Man comic. I started with Miles Morales and SpOck. Everything I know of Peter is from other media, so I'll refrain from even comparing.

I really like Superior Spider-Man. There's something wonderfully twisted and fun about this SpOck that I'm pretty sure can't be found in very many comics. From what I understood, he was affected by merging with Peter to the point where he was forced to adopt his morals and several of his personality traits, so to say that this is a completely evil character is just wrong. This is certainly a very exciting take on the series, at worst very unique; SpOck's approaches to the problems that Parker used to face are awesome to watch, even if at this point he has barely been challenged by anything. And I think that's kind of the point, but I'm sure that'll get boring fast. I'm definitely looking forward to whatever is coming next to this series.

All that said, I'll welcome the next change this series will face with open arms, though it seems as though it will be the disappearance of SpOck and the introduction of Miles as the definitive Spider-Man for 616 (judging from rumors and such). I would be ok with that, since I think Miles is a better Spider-Man, or at least his story thus far has been much better. But that's all speculation.

Bottom line: stop crying and enjoy the ride.

Posted by FadeToBlackBolt

@the_jackolantern said:

Damn people are still getting emotional about this?

its just something that happened and you have to wait till the end off S S then peter well be back and you idiots can nerd rage over something else like Lobo being skinny

Calling people on a comic site nerds derogatorily.

I'm looking for a leg for you to stand on.

Nope, can't find one.

Posted by The_jackolantern

Damn people are still getting emotional about this?

its just something that happened and you have to wait till the end off S S then peter well be back and you idiots can nerd rage over something else like Lobo being skinny

Posted by w0nd

I love it simply because as a villain this is a pretty bad ass villainous thing to do. Any time I have seen the hero villain body swap it lasted like 2 issues. I love to hate the guy. I like the fact that the villain won and not only that he ruined the heroes life. On the flip side though it puts peter back to square one when he returns. At the very very least I hope doc gets his doctorate before he's done with his body.

this thread make me wanna tear my eyes out and eat them

F*cking terrible, How can you say you Love Superior Spider-man and Not puke?

Because I'm not dramatic and i know it won't last forever lol. It's just another story where the bad guy actually wins for once, and sooner or later that will backfire too.

He did what a villain is supposed to do. Murder or humiliate the hero, in this case both. The fact people get offended when I say I am fine with the book and I am not dedicating my life to seeing it burn baffles me as much as it baffles them how anyone could not hate it. The fact how much of a fan I am is questioned is annoying, because like I said it won't last forever.

Is it interesting? yes sure it is. I like seeing the villains scared for once, I like seeing smug hob goblin run away, i liked seeing kingpin run away, and I can't wait to see how he interacts with goblin

Over all do I like spock better? No not at all

Is some of it contradicting? hell yes, to an annoying point. He is arrogant beyond belief even though he admitted this 15 year old kid outsmarted him numerous times, and held back from killing him. So him going on how superior he is, sounds stupid, let alone it's his every second word, but this just adds on to me loving the hate I have for him.

Posted by InnerVenom123

@innervenom123: i can go into very specific Details in why i despise this run and why i HATE tha issue so f*cking much.

Kay. Do it then.

Posted by daredevil21134

I hated Superior Spider-man and the concept of it.

It was a lame storyline as an excuse to make an "edgy" Spider-man. To turn him into some cool and egoistic teenager, that acts like he's the ultimate badass like some crappy fanfiction. Which in turn goes against everything Spider-man is and hopes to represent to people.

It saddens me that people who supposedly "love" Spider-Man can simply replace the core character. This is worse then when Dick became Batman when Bruce died.

Well said buddy

Posted by TheAcidSkull

@innervenom123: i can go into very specific Details in why i despise this run and why i HATE tha issue so f*cking much.

Posted by InnerVenom123

For the record, I'm not even trolling at this point. I'm legitimately dumbfounded.

@innervenom123: because it sh*ts on Peter parker

That's a terrible reason. Parker Luck is a thing that exists. That's pretty much the formula to his entire life.

If you're referring to his death, that is.

damages the mythos.

If you're referring to issue 9, the most misunderstood issue, please read this:

http://www.newsarama.com/17743-dan-slott-details-peter-parker-s-superior-spider-man-9-plight.html

Otherwise I don't know what you mean aside from maybe that you're trying to think of a fancier way to say "I don't like it."

and also Carlie Cooper.

Existed beforehand and isn't that bad...?

Edited by FadeToBlackBolt

@innervenom123 said:

I still don't understand how you can actually be emotionally affected by Superior Spider-man.

Peter Parker is f**king immortal. Like, literally. This is so clearly a short-term thing. It's so clearly meant to be painful to fans, and it so clearly knows what it's doing.

I don't get it.

Why can't you just enjoy Spock's wild ride?

Like how you enjoyed Mac as Venom? =P

Edited by TheAcidSkull

@innervenom123: because it sh*ts on Peter parker and damages the mythos.

and also Carlie Cooper.

Edited by InnerVenom123

I still don't understand how you can actually be emotionally affected by Superior Spider-man.

Peter Parker is f**king immortal. Like, literally. This is so clearly a short-term thing. It's so clearly meant to be painful to fans, and it so clearly knows what it's doing.

I don't get it.

Why can't you just enjoy Spock's wild ride?

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