So cap isn't a superhuman...but is he enhanced or peak?

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cameron83

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@muyjingo said:

@slimj87d said:

@cameron83: The OP gave up awhile back already in this thread: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/steve-rodgers-v-s-bruce-wayne-h2h-1484006/

It was a pretty tiring debate to debate with such a hypocrite. For example, posting 2 scans of Captain America running at around 60 MPH wasn't consistent enough, but to match dozens of Captain America falling out of aircrafts he tried to use one questionable showing of Batman falling out of a window WITH a Talon (whom suits are capable of flight and gliding BTW). The guy couldn't even play by his own rules.

Heh. I just saw this.

I didn't give up, I've just been swamped with work. I'm only just starting to catch up.

Although when you make accusations like this, it surely shows what type of person you are.

Just to clarify your misinformation:

  • Both scans of Cap running at 60mph were from the silver age. The moern incarnation of the character (last 30 years) has not been shown running at that speed.
  • The feat of Bruce falling 15 stories was a freefall. The breakdown of the panels clearly shows that the talon does not have his wings open, until Bruce is already safely on a gargoyle. The Talon also fails to fly to saftey, negating any flight suit capabilities.
  • Simj87d tried to argue that a figure of speech of someone saying cap had been running a mile a minute (indicating how busy he had been) should be taken literally, which by itself is ridiculous. What made it more ridiculous is that he tried to argue that it was a double entendre, illustrating he does not understand what a double entendre is. Hint, it's not simple a figure of speech with two meanings.

The facts are that Cap is only shown consistently to have an above human healing factors and to be capable of running at incredible speeds (which I acknowledge, despite it not being consistent).

As far as feats go, there is nothing, nothing, showing Cap to be anything more than peak human in terms of strength, reflexes, durability etc. Other peak humans either match or surpass him.

That's the simple truth.

But hey, feel free to continue wallowing in your delusion of ignorance.

Erm,I think Marvel Silver Age is still in canon,right?

Also,DD is peak human in comics.But he is not anywhere near Cap. And Cap easily deflects bullets with Shield throws and can see the trajectory faster. And he has the reflexes to easily dodge multiple lasers and move faster than people can react.

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MuyJingo

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In fact, I think this calls for a blog post.

Between this thread and the misinformed article on the site that had Batman vs Captain America, I have pretty much all the best scans that people arguing for the Cap side have put forward. Their best examples of evidence to make their argument.

I think it will be pretty easy to go through each one and dubunk it, or show equivalent feats from other peak humans.

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MuyJingo

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Erm,I think Marvel Silver Age is still in canon,right?

Yes, it is still canon. But so what?

That doesn't mean the character hasn't changed significantly and that random feats from that era are still relevant or give an accurate representation of the modern incarnation.

I mean, I'm sure there are instances of silver age Cap being racist or sexist. Does that mean you would say that Cap is racist or sexist these days?

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@muyjingo said:

@cameron83 said:

Erm,I think Marvel Silver Age is still in canon,right?

Yes, it is still canon. But so what?

That doesn't mean the character hasn't changed significantly and that random feats from that era are still relevant or give an accurate representation of the modern incarnation.

I mean, I'm sure there are instances of silver age Cap being racist or sexist. Does that mean you would say that Cap is racist or sexist these days?

Well,I would agree in the second sense being that the character has grown significantly in power over the years.

But yeah,I think I remember those instances. I think those might be retconned out like some of DC's racist moments. I mean,comics are influenced by culture,and culture does change over time.

But I think they are still meant to be canon (the feats).

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Well,I would agree in the second sense being that the character has grown significantly in power over the years.

But yeah,I think I remember those instances. I think those might be retconned out like some of DC's racist moments. I mean,comics are influenced by culture,and culture does change over time.

But I think they are still meant to be canon (the feats).

It doesn't work like that.

You can't selectively choose moments from the silver age and say they are canon because they support your argument, and say others don't count because the character has changed over time. That's entirely inconsistent.

The feats can be canon and they can also not represent the strength level of the current character. It just requires rationalizing the inconsistency away.

Point is, if you have to rely on silver age feats to defend the modern incarnation, you don't have much of an argument.

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#306  Edited By cameron83

@muyjingo said:

@cameron83 said:

Well,I would agree in the second sense being that the character has grown significantly in power over the years.

But yeah,I think I remember those instances. I think those might be retconned out like some of DC's racist moments. I mean,comics are influenced by culture,and culture does change over time.

But I think they are still meant to be canon (the feats).

It doesn't work like that.

You can't selectively choose moments from the silver age and say they are canon because they support your argument, and say others don't count because the character has changed over time. That's entirely inconsistent.

The feats can be canon and they can also not represent the strength level of the current character. It just requires rationalizing the inconsistency away.

Point is, if you have to rely on silver age feats to defend the modern incarnation, you don't have much of an argument.

No,I am saying that none of them can really be chosen as accurate representations of the character due to the fact that their power levels have changed over time. Silver Age Hulk is not as strong as Modern Hulk,same with Thor,Wolverine,Spider-man,etc.

Put simply,I agree. Silver Age depictions are outdated in,well,every way.

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No,I am saying that none of them can really be chosen as accurate representations of the character due to the fact that their power levels have changed over time. Silver Age Hulk is not as strong as Modern Hulk,same with Thor,Wolverine,Spider-man,etc.

Put simply,I agree. Silver Age depictions are outdated in,well,every way.

Great!

So you agree then that it would be silly to argue something about modern age hulk using silver age hulk feats?

I mean if you want to argue something for modern age cap, shown modern age cap doing it...

Seems pretty simple to me....

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#308  Edited By cameron83

@muyjingo said:

@cameron83 said:

No,I am saying that none of them can really be chosen as accurate representations of the character due to the fact that their power levels have changed over time. Silver Age Hulk is not as strong as Modern Hulk,same with Thor,Wolverine,Spider-man,etc.

Put simply,I agree. Silver Age depictions are outdated in,well,every way.

Great!

So you agree then that it would be silly to argue something about modern age hulk using silver age hulk feats?

I mean if you want to argue something for modern age cap, shown modern age cap doing it...

Seems pretty simple to me....

I would agree.

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I would agree.

Great. Then following what you have said and agreed to, a large majority of the silver age feats submitted are irrelevant to this argument.

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#310  Edited By cameron83

@muyjingo said:
@cameron83 said:

I would agree.

Great. Then following what you have said and agreed to, a large majority of the silver age feats submitted are irrelevant to this argument.

I would say that they don't accurately depict a characters current higher levels,so....I guess I would say yes to all of them being that the character would've gotten MUCH MUCH stronger,especially based on modern feats.

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I would say that they don't accurately depict a characters current higher levels,so....I guess I would say yes to all of them being that the character would've gotten MUCH MUCH stronger,especially based on modern feats.

Well, that's a separate argument.

And yet, if that were true, why are people relying on silver age feats to show him as super human?

Where are all the modern feats of his super human showings?

I've just skimmed through the thread and the modern showings that people have provided are:

  • Holding up debris from a collapsed skyscraper - Batman has done this, and probably other peak humans. Not superhuman.
  • A single instance where he states he can see faster than normal. I'm not sure what that even means.
  • Being impaled through the chest and continuing on. - Batman has also done this, but since non super-humans have done it, it's not solely a superhuman feat.
  • Jumping a short distance from a helicopter, and crushing a car. - This isn't anything to do with being superhuman. Drop a 280 pound object from 100 feet and it will make an impact on the car. That's all due to gravity and his weight, not anything that can be ascribed to him.
  • Showing desperation, two people have tried to claim that someone using the figure of speech "running a mile a minute" in reference to Cap should be taken as literal evidence of his speed. Puh-lease.
  • Being smashed through walls, 2 of them wood. Sorry, not a superhuman feat.
  • Having war machine throw him into a group of adversaries.
  • Climbing up a roof and it being claimed that he jumped 30 stories. Again, a sign of desperation.
  • Surviving an explosion - not superhuman, many characters have done this. Punisher, Batman, Daredevil
  • Throwing his shield threw a helicopter tail. - Not superhuman, and not overly impressive with the shield only weighing 12lbs.

I don't think I've missed any.

Most of his modern feats have many other peak humans doing equivalent things, or have people twisting what is shown and trying to frame it as something else.

There is a pretty clear lack of evidence to make the argument that Steve is super human. Contrast this with actual superhuman, where the evidence is overwhelming....because it is shown consistently. Because they actually are superhuman.

So you can see why I remain skeptical, especially when people advocating the "cap is superhuman argument" have to resort to deliberately twisting facts.

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#312  Edited By cameron83

@muyjingo said:

@cameron83 said:

I would say that they don't accurately depict a characters current higher levels,so....I guess I would say yes to all of them being that the character would've gotten MUCH MUCH stronger,especially based on modern feats.

Well, that's a separate argument.

And yet, if that were true, why are people relying on silver age feats to show him as super human?

Where are all the modern feats of his super human showings?

I've just skimmed through the thread and the modern showings that people have provided are:

  • Holding up debris from a collapsed skyscraper - Batman has done this, and probably other peak humans. Not superhuman.
  • A single instance where he states he can see faster than normal. I'm not sure what that even means.
  • Being impaled through the chest and continuing on. - Batman has also done this, but since non super-humans have done it, it's not solely a superhuman feat.
  • Jumping a short distance from a helicopter, and crushing a car. - This isn't anything to do with being superhuman. Drop a 280 pound object from 100 feet and it will make an impact on the car. That's all due to gravity and his weight, not anything that can be ascribed to him.
  • Showing desperation, two people have tried to claim that someone using the figure of speech "running a mile a minute" in reference to Cap should be taken as literal evidence of his speed. Puh-lease.
  • Being smashed through walls, 2 of them wood. Sorry, not a superhuman feat.
  • Having war machine throw him into a group of adversaries.
  • Climbing up a roof and it being claimed that he jumped 30 stories. Again, a sign of desperation.
  • Surviving an explosion - not superhuman, many characters have done this. Punisher, Batman, Daredevil
  • Throwing his shield threw a helicopter tail. - Not superhuman, and not overly impressive with the shield only weighing 12lbs.

I don't think I've missed any.

Most of his modern feats have many other peak humans doing equivalent things, or have people twisting what is shown and trying to frame it as something else.

There is a pretty clear lack of evidence to make the argument that Steve is super human. Contrast this with actual superhuman, where the evidence is overwhelming....because it is shown consistently. Because they actually are superhuman.

So you can see why I remain skeptical, especially when people advocating the "cap is superhuman argument" have to resort to deliberately twisting facts.

Ah,I see.

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#313  Edited By VMole

@muyjingo said:

@cameron83 said:

I would say that they don't accurately depict a characters current higher levels,so....I guess I would say yes to all of them being that the character would've gotten MUCH MUCH stronger,especially based on modern feats.

Well, that's a separate argument.

And yet, if that were true, why are people relying on silver age feats to show him as super human?

Where are all the modern feats of his super human showings?

I've just skimmed through the thread and the modern showings that people have provided are:

  • Holding up debris from a collapsed skyscraper - Batman has done this, and probably other peak humans. Not superhuman.
  • A single instance where he states he can see faster than normal. I'm not sure what that even means.
  • Being impaled through the chest and continuing on. - Batman has also done this, but since non super-humans have done it, it's not solely a superhuman feat.
  • Jumping a short distance from a helicopter, and crushing a car. - This isn't anything to do with being superhuman. Drop a 280 pound object from 100 feet and it will make an impact on the car. That's all due to gravity and his weight, not anything that can be ascribed to him.
  • Showing desperation, two people have tried to claim that someone using the figure of speech "running a mile a minute" in reference to Cap should be taken as literal evidence of his speed. Puh-lease.
  • Being smashed through walls, 2 of them wood. Sorry, not a superhuman feat.
  • Having war machine throw him into a group of adversaries.
  • Climbing up a roof and it being claimed that he jumped 30 stories. Again, a sign of desperation.
  • Surviving an explosion - not superhuman, many characters have done this. Punisher, Batman, Daredevil
  • Throwing his shield threw a helicopter tail. - Not superhuman, and not overly impressive with the shield only weighing 12lbs.

I don't think I've missed any.

Most of his modern feats have many other peak humans doing equivalent things, or have people twisting what is shown and trying to frame it as something else.

There is a pretty clear lack of evidence to make the argument that Steve is super human. Contrast this with actual superhuman, where the evidence is overwhelming....because it is shown consistently. Because they actually are superhuman.

So you can see why I remain skeptical, especially when people advocating the "cap is superhuman argument" have to resort to deliberately twisting facts.

- It was tons of steel that were bearing down on him, Sharon, and that construction guy. Considering the amount twisted mass of metal he was supporting, it sure as hell was more than hundreds of pounds worth. You also have to factor in the amount of force when it fell on him.

- It means his reflexes allow him to react to bullets mid-flight and is apparently not just limited to aim dodging. Look at the scan where Bucky fires a pistol while Steve's arms are at rest and his shield isn't raised, by the time the bullet whizzes past him he's already launched his shield to hit Bucky from behind. There's also another scan somewhere where Corrupter forces Bucky shoot Steve at pointblank range, but he manages to deflect the bullet in time off of his shield to ricochet it off multiple surfaces to hit Corrupter into Living Laser, breaking his control over Bucky.

- He cuts a giant gaping hole in his chest and continues to fight (in less than peak form I'm sure), he then gets into a tangle with Zola leading to a sequence where he falls hundreds of feet and bouncing off of numerous hard structures on the way down. In another unrelated fight he fights with a mutant with superhuman strength and durability during a freefall of at least a hundred feet, kicks him off in time during the fall to avoid being impaled and manages to land onto a hard surface, whether this was following his self-inflicted injury or not, I can't recall, but I'll look up the scan again.

- 'Short' relative to what? The distance was significant enough that the firers couldn't even spot Captain America falling out of the aircraft with the aid of binoculars. He managed to throw his shield with such force and accuracy with absolutely no leverage that it reached his target before he managed to land, that can be attributed to a strength feat on top of the fact that he lands feet first on a car without even having to roll to shed the energy from the fall, all this and he goes straight into combat with the Hydra soldiers immediately afterwards while maintaining perfect balance, which is both a durability and agility feat.

You also don't leave craters on hardened soil from a 'short fall' from a helicopter, he also doesn't roll to shed off energy from that impact either, another durability feat.

- Except it's already been established in the other stated instances that Steve can run a mile in just over a minute under duress, it's not hyperbole and is backed in other sources.

- He was blasted through a cylinder of what can assumed to be metal of unknown thickness, a roof of what looks to be of a wooden/laminate composition, and what looks to be a metal shipping container with enough force to send him through the first two structures in a completely straight line with apparently not much loss in momentum. I'd like to see a guy that's been pushed through a metal water tower, a wooden house roof, and right into a metal shipping container under similar circumstances and not end up a torso on life support.

- He was already falling out of a plane and streamlined himself to maximize his falling velocity, which can reach up to 200mph with his given posture. War Machine's assistance didn't slow him down, just helped him guide him to his target, but even if it did, it definitely wouldn't have been enough to matter. I doubt the suit he wears provides any amount of impact resistance, especially with the force created since he cratered the ground beneath the guy's face he dropped into, not that it matters due to the fact that he dropped into him fists first. His arms and the rest of his body should have been done for, gone, he wouldn't be in fighting shape for any amount of time, especially right afterwards, yet it's still consistent with the rest of his showings with unassisted aerial drops considering that he just tanks the force of the impact and never breaks stride.

- He jumps approximately 3 stories in a single bound in one instance, and in the other instance he vaults around on poles to a roof that's at the very least ten stories higher given the relative position of the poles to the top of the building he jumps to, he doesn't 'jump' 30 stories, look at the sequence again.

- His scene with Gambit was like strapping a couple of sticks of dynamite right on a guy's chest, its sheer concussive force capable of utterly pulverizing and shattering flesh and bone, it's not the same as wearing armor or putting something thick between yourself and a bomb to absorb the force of an explosion from meters away. The explosion itself shattered the surrounding flora, all it did was piss Steve off, another durability feat.

- The helicopter examples are more of an agility and coordination feat than strength since helicopters are made with light metals to improve aerodynamics, but the fact that he could throw it with enough force to shear off completely, not disrupt and jam to the point of breaking, the main and tail rotor sections from the distance he throws his shield still counts as a strength feat.

You also ignore the fact that he threw his shield through a frigging truck.

There's also a few scans of an upcoming Captain America run where he blocks a 50mm round from a tank, smacks right into a tree from the impact, and then gets back up to throw a shield through said vehicle.

tl;dr, Steve's a damn superhuman and Marvel just keeps teasing its readers by stating that he's only peak.

3:00AM, tired, bed time.

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@vmole said:

- It was tons of steel that were bearing down on him, Sharon, and that construction guy. Considering the amount twisted mass of metal he was supporting, it sure as hell was more than hundreds of pounds worth. You also have to factor in the amount of force when it fell on him.

So, first I want to say I disagree with you, but I appreciate your well written argument.

That it is hundreds of pounds worth is an assumption on your part. It certainly doesn't look like that much in the actual scan.

Even if it is, he can support 800lbs in an overhead press as a peak human. There is nothing superhuman about what he is doing.

- It means his reflexes allow him to react to bullets mid-flight and is apparently not just limited to aim dodging. Look at the scan where Bucky fires a pistol while Steve's arms are at rest and his shield isn't raised, by the time the bullet whizzes past him he's already launched his shield to hit Bucky from behind. There's also another scan somewhere where Corrupter forces Bucky shoot Steve at pointblank range, but he manages to deflect the bullet in time off of his shield to ricochet it off multiple surfaces to hit Corrupter into Living Laser, breaking his control over Bucky.

The reason I said that I don't even know what that means, is that "seeing faster" could be interpreted in a few different ways.

Does it mean he can process visual information faster, allowing him to react faster? That seems likely, which is the same as having enhanced reflexes. Well, a bunch of peak humans have enhanced reflexes. Again, there is nothing superhuman about this.

It's fairly plausible as well, as reflexes are something that can be improved with training and experience, so given the hyper-reality of the comics, it makes sense that non superhumans could "see faster".

The problem I have with showing his reflex feats as Superhuman is that...they're not. They are no doubt impressive, but other peak, non superpowered humans have done the same thing. It isn't anything special and it certainly isn't superhuman.

- He cuts a giant gaping hole in his chest and continues to fight (in less than peak form I'm sure), he then gets into a tangle with Zola leading to a sequence where he falls hundreds of feet and bouncing off of numerous hard structures on the way down. In another unrelated fight he fights with a mutant with superhuman strength and durability during a freefall of at least a hundred feet, kicks him off in time during the fall to avoid being impaled and manages to land onto a hard surface, whether this was following his self-inflicted injury or not, I can't recall, but I'll look up the scan again.

No need. I'm well familiar with the scan, and I never said it wasn't impressive. I simply said it wasn't superhuman.

The most equivalent example is when Bruce was fighting Ra's al Ghul. After days without sleep, after having endured much phsyical and mental punishment, he was impaled in the chest with a shovel, and managed to get back up and fight. The scans are elsewhere in this thread.

- 'Short' relative to what? The distance was significant enough that the firers couldn't even spot Captain America falling out of the aircraft with the aid of binoculars. He managed to throw his shield with such force and accuracy with absolutely no leverage that it reached his target before he managed to land, that can be attributed to a strength feat on top of the fact that he lands feet first on a car without even having to roll to shed the energy from the fall, all this and he goes straight into combat with the Hydra soldiers immediately afterwards while maintaining perfect balance, which is both a durability and agility feat.

Short is short, it doesn't have to be relative. If someone says a short distance to you, in the context of a helicopter hovering over ground, whats the largest distance that comes to mind?

Anyway, again, I'm not saying what he did isn't impressive. You don't have to convince me it is. I'm saying it isn't a superhuman feat, and nothing you have said addressed that.

And I'm sorry...but where was it mentioned that the firers couldn't spot him falling? That just sounds like nonsense.

You also don't leave craters on hardened soil from a 'short fall' from a helicopter, he also doesn't roll to shed off energy from that impact either, another durability feat.

Depends on the soil, and the distance. You think if we drop 300 pounds of metal 50 feet from the air it wont leave an impact in hardened soil?

- Except it's already been established in the other stated instances that Steve can run a mile in just over a minute under duress, it's not hyperbole and is backed in other sources.

Yeah? Where?

There is a single occurrence in all of the characters history from the silver age that has him running at that stated speed.

There is a second occurrence, also from the silver age, that has him running at 50mph.

There are no other occurrences where his speed is stated, and no modern occurrence of him running that fast.

Indeed, for the last...20? years, the OHotMU have his stated speed as 30mph. Which I think makes a lot more sense.

- He was blasted through a cylinder of what can assumed to be metal of unknown thickness, a roof of what looks to be of a wooden/laminate composition, and what looks to be a metal shipping container with enough force to send him through the first two structures in a completely straight line with apparently not much loss in momentum. I'd like to see a guy that's been pushed through a metal water tower, a wooden house roof, and right into a metal shipping container under similar circumstances and not end up a torso on life support.

The cylinder can also be assumed to be drywall. It makes it easy if we just assume what the cylinder is made of to something that suits our argument.

Going by the patterns on the first two items, both appear to be made of wood. Where you see a shipping container, I see a trailer of sorts.

The cylinder may well be a type of metal, but it could easily be sheet metal, such as some water tanks are made of, which would make sense that he can be thrown through.

-He was already falling out of a plane and streamlined himself to maximize his falling velocity, which can reach up to 200mph with his given posture. War Machine's assistance didn't slow him down, just helped him guide him to his target, but even if it did, it definitely wouldn't have been enough to matter. I doubt the suit he wears provides any amount of impact resistance, especially with the force created since he cratered the ground beneath the guy's face he dropped into, not that it matters due to the fact that he dropped into him fists first. His arms and the rest of his body should have been done for, gone, he wouldn't be in fighting shape for any amount of time, especially right afterwards, yet it's still consistent with the rest of his showings with unassisted aerial drops considering that he just tanks the force of the impact and never breaks stride.

It actually looks like, to me, That he is hanging on to war machine for most of the way down, until war machine lets go and he crashes on to his adversary.

I would bet a large amount of money that his suit of armor allows for impact resistance, which also helps explain the impacts in soil, the crushed car etc...

Why would you say his body should have been done for and gone? He has a very high bone density, muscle density, more muscle tissue etc...he isn't a regular out of shape human...

Again though, at the end of the day, it isn't a superhuman feat, no matter how impressive it is.

- He jumps approximately 3 stories in a single bound in one instance, and in the other instance he vaults around on poles to a roof that's at the very least ten stories higher given the relative position of the poles to the top of the building he jumps to, he doesn't 'jump' 30 stories, look at the sequence again.

I was repeating what others had claimed, not making the claim myself.

It's certainly impressive, again though, not superhuman. Daredevil does pretty similar things frequently, does he not?

- His scene with Gambit was like strapping a couple of sticks of dynamite right on a guy's chest, its sheer concussive force capable of utterly pulverizing and shattering flesh and bone, it's not the same as wearing armor or putting something thick between yourself and a bomb to absorb the force of an explosion from meters away. The explosion itself shattered the surrounding flora, all it did was piss Steve off, another durability feat.

Now, I'm not familiar enough with Gambit, but can't Gambit control the amount of force he can use? He could have used enough just to push Cap back, as opposed to doing the equivalent of putting dynamite on his chest. Right?

How much are you assuming?

- The helicopter examples are more of an agility and coordination feat than strength since helicopters are made with light metals to improve aerodynamics, but the fact that he could throw it with enough force to shear off completely, not disrupt and jam to the point of breaking, the main and tail rotor sections from the distance he throws his shield still counts as a strength feat.

Sure, I never said it wasn't. It's just not superhuman.

There's a bunch of discuss athletes in the real world who can throw 4.4lbs just under 250 lbs.

And you're trying to argue that I should be impressed that an alleged superhuman threw a 12lb shield 10 or 20 feet?

Or maybe I should be impressed that it destroyed the helicopter tail? Well, I can't be because I ascribe that mainly to the shield, and the force generated by caps throw....which isn't superhuman.

You also ignore the fact that he threw his shield through a frigging truck.

Through the top, mostly empty container, through the mostly empty cab and then it took of the radiator? Yeah, I'm not seeing that as superhuman. Sorry.

There's also a few scans of an upcoming Captain America run where he blocks a 50mm round from a tank, smacks right into a tree from the impact, and then gets back up to throw a shield through said vehicle.

Remender does seem to be writing him as more superhuman, so that seems fine. As of the moment, as of the last 30 years, there are not a lot of modern feats that can be used to argue that he is superhuman. Not when other non superhumans have similar shows of strength, endurance and reflexes.

tl;dr, Steve's a damn superhuman and Marvel just keeps teasing its readers by stating that he's only peak.

Or he is just a peak human, who writers sometimes write as superhuman and his fans selectivly use those few feats to argue that he is.

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@vmole: @muyjingo: Hi. I know people like to do the feat game, but I think that it is so much prone to cherry picking and interpretation that it gets ridicolous. I mean, look at the point about the fight with Gambit: first you assume that Gambit held back the power of the explosion (even though the damage to the sorroundings is considerable) and then you accuse the other guy of assuming too much. Not saying you are wrong, he could have held it back, but we can't be sure because we'll never know what the writer was thinking. Same goes for basically any scan posted.

I would argue, though, what I argued before and was just ignored. Cap is seen consistently fighting superhumans, even powerful ones like Iron Man and Spiderman, and he is never presented at a disadvantage. He has very high level fightin skills, of course, but that wouldn't be enough against spider-senses, sensors and armor. We see him cracking Tony's armor with the strenght of his blows, and we know that that armor can go into space, withstand blows from Thor and other stuff. Even if his stenght isn't on par with the most powerful superpowered people, it would be a little weird to ignore what a menace he is considered in combat.

Instead people like Batman are considered threats because of the way they scheme and the plans they can come up before a fight. Batman never tangled with superhumans if not heavily prepared and armored. I mean he had special weapons, special suits, gadgets or entire vehicles. So it doesn't seem like the comparison really stands. Every comic book reader knows that Cap can take head on superpowered guys because he is not really human in his showings; and still they also know that Batman is like the best a human can possibly be, but he would never go against people like Clayface or Poison Ivy without his gadgets and gimmicks, let alone people like Spider man or Iron man!

I only bring up the comparison between the two because you guys did it. I don't think it's a real comparison.

I think that the feat game, I mean specifically focusing on the numbers, like what speed was he running in that panel, how much was he lifting in that scene... this is not significant. Even if one could interpret it correctly, still it wouldn't be a statistically significant showing. But the character is presented consistently able to do something or something other, other characters always talk about him in a certain way... those are the things that the writers want to collectively convey.

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MuyJingo

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@matteopg:

Hey Matteopg, I didn't mean to ignore your previous reply, I am sorry.

I just want to make a slight clarification with what you said above. I wasn't accusing vmole of assuming, I was just asking if he was, as I'm not that familiar with Gambit.

I get your point with it though and agree. That's why I've asked for feats to be shown consistently, otherwise I don't think they really count outside of a battle thread.

I do disagree with your argument though. You are saying that Cap regularly tangles with superhumans and is closer to being on their level, while Batman does not do so without prep and sufficient protection. That's what I disagree with.

Batman regularly faces down Killer Croc, Bane, Clayface, Manbat, Solomun Grundy, Talons, even Poison Ivy..all of who are considered superhuman.

As far as Cap beating Ironman..wasn't he getting beat down pretty hard until he killed Tony's suit with a gadget Vision gave him?

Again though, I agree with you about feats. I find the whole thing silly but it's how people argue the point. The reason I originally opposed Cap being superhuman was because of the original article on the site. It gives Cap an advantage by cherrypicking his feats and ignoring relevant Batman feats.

Batman does regularly tangle with Superhumans, just as Cap does. So I don't see that as an argument for one being more super than the other.

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MatteoPG

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@muyjingo: hi there. Thanks for being so cordial :)

Yes, Batman does tangle with superhumans, but I specified that he does so with the aid of an extensive arsenal, between armor, computers, gadgets and vehicles. I don't think I could see Batman going around just with a suit of cloth and being able to take clayface, poison ivy, grundy or killer croc.

My point was tha Cap uses only his physical endowments to go toe to toe with superhumans pretty regularly.

You are right about the thing with Tony. I forgot about how Vision helped. Still, that was one time. He fought the Hulk in several occasions and held his own (although he did not win, but it wasn't a lost cause), and Hulk is pretty near the best in terms of stenght the marvel universe has to offer (if we discount cosmic stuff). He went all out in AvX and was able to tangle with more than one superhuman. He had a fist fight with spiderman and the latter was in considerable difficult in the fairest of battles. Also he smashed giant metal robot things with his shield numerous times, and that's just his arm's strenght.

And again, this is all on his own. Batman is an amazing athlete, but he could never do what he does without his suits and his gadgets, and still be able to figh the rank of people he does now.

I can't find in previous posts your definition of peak human. How do you define that? Because maybe we are just debating semantics.

Still, let me make this clear: I don't think that there's a huge wedge between peak human and super-strenght. I think there are various gradations of super-powers. I mean Gladiator and Luke Cage are both superhumans, but I would never pit them one against the other. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that the serum put Rogers above what a normal human can do, but not by that much. He is maybe 3-4 times what the best olympionic athletes could be in their best day (again, just a mental random number to give you the idea). So, just like I wouldn't want to see a fight between Nightcrawler and the Phoenix, I would not want to see Captain America against Odin or Apocalypse.

To conclude: if your definition of peak human gets close to what I mean by low-level superpowered person, I think this thing has run its course :)

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@matteopg: But of course :)

I guess I wasn't clear in my previous post, but I did mean to say that Batman has gone toe to toe with superhumans, consistently, without special armor or gadgets.

Don't most people consider Cap holding his own against Hulk ridiculous PIS?

I think you are underestimating Batman by saying he is relying on his suit and gadgets. His suit doesn't give him the strength, endurance or speed to do many of his best feats.

I think on Page 3 there is a scan from the marvel handbook which defines peak human. It's essentially about upper limits. But to avoid semantics, I'm saying Cap is no more super than Batman except for running speed and a healing factor. He isn't stronger, faster etc. Both are peak human.

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MatteoPG

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@muyjingo: oh well, agree to disagree then. Cheers :)

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slimj87d

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#320  Edited By slimj87d

@cameron83: @vmole: @matteopg: @krauser99@tg1982@veshark

@muyjingo said:

@matteopg: But of course :)

I guess I wasn't clear in my previous post, but I did mean to say that Batman has gone toe to toe with superhumans, consistently, without special armor or gadgets.

Don't most people consider Cap holding his own against Hulk ridiculous PIS?

I think you are underestimating Batman by saying he is relying on his suit and gadgets. His suit doesn't give him the strength, endurance or speed to do many of his best feats.

I think on Page 3 there is a scan from the marvel handbook which defines peak human. It's essentially about upper limits. But to avoid semantics, I'm saying Cap is no more super than Batman except for running speed and a healing factor. He isn't stronger, faster etc. Both are peak human.

running speed, healing factor and lets not forget durability we proved he's more durable than Bruce is. Bruce hasn't smashed a car in half and fell 100s of stories with a giant hole in his chest, he hasn't taken a ground one explosion to the face WITHOUT armor which destroyed trees either like when Gambit blew Captain America up. It was also revealed that the SSS suppresses his aging as he went through 12 years of Dimension Z without aging, add that to a random perk.

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We never finished our debate anyways, we only got the the points I wanted to prove. But now that I have work, i'm in graduate school and they're 50 miles apart I really don't have time to debate with you. I'll just leave this with the general public to discuss it.

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Feel free to discuss the strength and throwing speed to accomplish such a feat. The Shield weighs about 12 lbs too.

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MatteoPG

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#321  Edited By MatteoPG

@slimj87d: yeah, that's what I was talking about. That strenght isn't human, period. I don't know why people feel the need to deny it. I'm not as heavy on feats as others, as I said, but this is stuff he does regularly. You can't tell me that throwing an onject through solid tempered metal and iron is something a peak human can achieve. We''re talking about tearing through stuff that most shells don't penetrate with a single blow. If you put the superior endurance, and that's not even been debated because it's obvious, and the healing factor... he's nowhere near a human being.

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slimj87d

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@matteopg said:

@slimj87d: yeah, that's what I was talking about. That strenght isn't human, period. I don't know why people feel the need to deny it. I'm not as heavy on feats as others, as I said, but this is stuff he does regularly. You can't tell me that throwing an onject through solid tempered metal and iron is something a peak human can achieve. We''re talking about tearing through stuff that most shells don't penetrate with a single blow. If you put the superior endurance, and that's not even been debated because it's obvious, and the healing factor... he's nowhere near a human being.

He is not. It has been stated multiple times on panel and by writers that he is the "peak of human potential. What man could potentially be one day in evolution he already is."

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VMole

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@muyjingo: @matteopg: That was the entire point of my long-winded post. Captain America's showings are consistently low-end superhuman and are consistently beyond the peak human definition Marvel likes to keep branding him. I brought up those high end showings because they aren't outliers and have showed up often, especially in comparatively recent runs where he's displayed even more blatantly superhuman showings.

Another point you brought up is Steve's standard combat kit which is, unless specifically outfitted for it, much more limited than Batman's standard gear, and he still regularly hangs and beats opponents beyond his power set through a combination of the use of his shield, tactical genius, physical prowess, and skill. Batman's gig is that his mission-specific gear, planning, deception, and secrecy carries him through the day against tougher opponents, and that while he possesses incredible skill and physical abilities for a human that engages in intense exercise, he could never consider engaging in the activities Steve partakes in if all he was given access to was Steve's standard gear without the accompanying benefit of the Super Soldier Serum.

Surviving pointblank explosions without the benefit of some high tech armor, falling hundreds of feet without the aid of a parachute or anything to distribute the force of the impact while remaining in peak fighting condition right afterwards, displaying running speed well beyond current human limits, cutting open vehicles hundreds of feet away using a shield and sheer arm strength, regularly striking, hurting, and defeating superhumans without any fancy doodads aside from his shield and limbs:

Marvel: "... yeah, that's peak human performance."

:|

It's comics, but Marvel is trying to have their cake and eat it too by stating inconsistently what is consistently shown on-panel and what their official stance on a character is supposed to be, even as a kid there was a disconnect between what had been said and what had been shown on-panel and it bugged me even then.

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MatteoPG

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#324  Edited By MatteoPG

@slimj87d: So, if he's outside of human's possibilities today, wouldn't that make him super-human by very definition. I mean, we don't know what evolution might bring. Maybe one day we'll all be telepaths, but that doesn't make Professor X peak human.

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VMole

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#325  Edited By VMole

@muyjingo said:

@vmole said:

- It was tons of steel that were bearing down on him, Sharon, and that construction guy. Considering the amount twisted mass of metal he was supporting, it sure as hell was more than hundreds of pounds worth. You also have to factor in the amount of force when it fell on him.

So, first I want to say I disagree with you, but I appreciate your well written argument.

That it is hundreds of pounds worth is an assumption on your part. It certainly doesn't look like that much in the actual scan.

Even if it is, he can support 800lbs in an overhead press as a peak human. There is nothing superhuman about what he is doing.

- It means his reflexes allow him to react to bullets mid-flight and is apparently not just limited to aim dodging. Look at the scan where Bucky fires a pistol while Steve's arms are at rest and his shield isn't raised, by the time the bullet whizzes past him he's already launched his shield to hit Bucky from behind. There's also another scan somewhere where Corrupter forces Bucky shoot Steve at pointblank range, but he manages to deflect the bullet in time off of his shield to ricochet it off multiple surfaces to hit Corrupter into Living Laser, breaking his control over Bucky.

The reason I said that I don't even know what that means, is that "seeing faster" could be interpreted in a few different ways.

Does it mean he can process visual information faster, allowing him to react faster? That seems likely, which is the same as having enhanced reflexes. Well, a bunch of peak humans have enhanced reflexes. Again, there is nothing superhuman about this.

It's fairly plausible as well, as reflexes are something that can be improved with training and experience, so given the hyper-reality of the comics, it makes sense that non superhumans could "see faster".

The problem I have with showing his reflex feats as Superhuman is that...they're not. They are no doubt impressive, but other peak, non superpowered humans have done the same thing. It isn't anything special and it certainly isn't superhuman.

- He cuts a giant gaping hole in his chest and continues to fight (in less than peak form I'm sure), he then gets into a tangle with Zola leading to a sequence where he falls hundreds of feet and bouncing off of numerous hard structures on the way down. In another unrelated fight he fights with a mutant with superhuman strength and durability during a freefall of at least a hundred feet, kicks him off in time during the fall to avoid being impaled and manages to land onto a hard surface, whether this was following his self-inflicted injury or not, I can't recall, but I'll look up the scan again.

No need. I'm well familiar with the scan, and I never said it wasn't impressive. I simply said it wasn't superhuman.

The most equivalent example is when Bruce was fighting Ra's al Ghul. After days without sleep, after having endured much phsyical and mental punishment, he was impaled in the chest with a shovel, and managed to get back up and fight. The scans are elsewhere in this thread.

- 'Short' relative to what? The distance was significant enough that the firers couldn't even spot Captain America falling out of the aircraft with the aid of binoculars. He managed to throw his shield with such force and accuracy with absolutely no leverage that it reached his target before he managed to land, that can be attributed to a strength feat on top of the fact that he lands feet first on a car without even having to roll to shed the energy from the fall, all this and he goes straight into combat with the Hydra soldiers immediately afterwards while maintaining perfect balance, which is both a durability and agility feat.

Short is short, it doesn't have to be relative. If someone says a short distance to you, in the context of a helicopter hovering over ground, whats the largest distance that comes to mind?

Anyway, again, I'm not saying what he did isn't impressive. You don't have to convince me it is. I'm saying it isn't a superhuman feat, and nothing you have said addressed that.

And I'm sorry...but where was it mentioned that the firers couldn't spot him falling? That just sounds like nonsense.

You also don't leave craters on hardened soil from a 'short fall' from a helicopter, he also doesn't roll to shed off energy from that impact either, another durability feat.

Depends on the soil, and the distance. You think if we drop 300 pounds of metal 50 feet from the air it wont leave an impact in hardened soil?

- Except it's already been established in the other stated instances that Steve can run a mile in just over a minute under duress, it's not hyperbole and is backed in other sources.

Yeah? Where?

There is a single occurrence in all of the characters history from the silver age that has him running at that stated speed.

There is a second occurrence, also from the silver age, that has him running at 50mph.

There are no other occurrences where his speed is stated, and no modern occurrence of him running that fast.

Indeed, for the last...20? years, the OHotMU have his stated speed as 30mph. Which I think makes a lot more sense.

- He was blasted through a cylinder of what can assumed to be metal of unknown thickness, a roof of what looks to be of a wooden/laminate composition, and what looks to be a metal shipping container with enough force to send him through the first two structures in a completely straight line with apparently not much loss in momentum. I'd like to see a guy that's been pushed through a metal water tower, a wooden house roof, and right into a metal shipping container under similar circumstances and not end up a torso on life support.

The cylinder can also be assumed to be drywall. It makes it easy if we just assume what the cylinder is made of to something that suits our argument.

Going by the patterns on the first two items, both appear to be made of wood. Where you see a shipping container, I see a trailer of sorts.

The cylinder may well be a type of metal, but it could easily be sheet metal, such as some water tanks are made of, which would make sense that he can be thrown through.

-He was already falling out of a plane and streamlined himself to maximize his falling velocity, which can reach up to 200mph with his given posture. War Machine's assistance didn't slow him down, just helped him guide him to his target, but even if it did, it definitely wouldn't have been enough to matter. I doubt the suit he wears provides any amount of impact resistance, especially with the force created since he cratered the ground beneath the guy's face he dropped into, not that it matters due to the fact that he dropped into him fists first. His arms and the rest of his body should have been done for, gone, he wouldn't be in fighting shape for any amount of time, especially right afterwards, yet it's still consistent with the rest of his showings with unassisted aerial drops considering that he just tanks the force of the impact and never breaks stride.

It actually looks like, to me, That he is hanging on to war machine for most of the way down, until war machine lets go and he crashes on to his adversary.

I would bet a large amount of money that his suit of armor allows for impact resistance, which also helps explain the impacts in soil, the crushed car etc...

Why would you say his body should have been done for and gone? He has a very high bone density, muscle density, more muscle tissue etc...he isn't a regular out of shape human...

Again though, at the end of the day, it isn't a superhuman feat, no matter how impressive it is.

- He jumps approximately 3 stories in a single bound in one instance, and in the other instance he vaults around on poles to a roof that's at the very least ten stories higher given the relative position of the poles to the top of the building he jumps to, he doesn't 'jump' 30 stories, look at the sequence again.

I was repeating what others had claimed, not making the claim myself.

It's certainly impressive, again though, not superhuman. Daredevil does pretty similar things frequently, does he not?

- His scene with Gambit was like strapping a couple of sticks of dynamite right on a guy's chest, its sheer concussive force capable of utterly pulverizing and shattering flesh and bone, it's not the same as wearing armor or putting something thick between yourself and a bomb to absorb the force of an explosion from meters away. The explosion itself shattered the surrounding flora, all it did was piss Steve off, another durability feat.

Now, I'm not familiar enough with Gambit, but can't Gambit control the amount of force he can use? He could have used enough just to push Cap back, as opposed to doing the equivalent of putting dynamite on his chest. Right?

How much are you assuming?

- The helicopter examples are more of an agility and coordination feat than strength since helicopters are made with light metals to improve aerodynamics, but the fact that he could throw it with enough force to shear off completely, not disrupt and jam to the point of breaking, the main and tail rotor sections from the distance he throws his shield still counts as a strength feat.

Sure, I never said it wasn't. It's just not superhuman.

There's a bunch of discuss athletes in the real world who can throw 4.4lbs just under 250 lbs.

And you're trying to argue that I should be impressed that an alleged superhuman threw a 12lb shield 10 or 20 feet?

Or maybe I should be impressed that it destroyed the helicopter tail? Well, I can't be because I ascribe that mainly to the shield, and the force generated by caps throw....which isn't superhuman.

You also ignore the fact that he threw his shield through a frigging truck.

Through the top, mostly empty container, through the mostly empty cab and then it took of the radiator? Yeah, I'm not seeing that as superhuman. Sorry.

There's also a few scans of an upcoming Captain America run where he blocks a 50mm round from a tank, smacks right into a tree from the impact, and then gets back up to throw a shield through said vehicle.

Remender does seem to be writing him as more superhuman, so that seems fine. As of the moment, as of the last 30 years, there are not a lot of modern feats that can be used to argue that he is superhuman. Not when other non superhumans have similar shows of strength, endurance and reflexes.

tl;dr, Steve's a damn superhuman and Marvel just keeps teasing its readers by stating that he's only peak.

Or he is just a peak human, who writers sometimes write as superhuman and his fans selectivly use those few feats to argue that he is.

- "That it is hundreds of pounds worth is an assumption on your part. It certainly doesn't look like that much in the actual scan."

Then look at the scan again, it's not an unfounded assumption. It's not a couple of one hundred pound weight irons, it's hundreds of feet worth of construction steel that fell on him, that's multiple tons, unless you assume that buildings of that size are built from some magical featherweight steel?

- "Does it mean he can process visual information faster, allowing him to react faster? That seems likely, which is the same as having enhanced reflexes. Well, a bunch of peak humans have enhanced reflexes. Again, there is nothing superhuman about this."

You can interpret however you want to, but everything in his body has information relayed to and from his brain at significantly increased pace, from processing visual information to see bullets mid-flight to being able to calculate a series of very complex trajectories of a bullet fired pointblank at his face to hit a target meters away. Steve is consistently shown anticipating, reacting to, and dodging bullets, not just the aim of the shooter, but the bullets themselves in many examples, blocking them when appropriate. He's been stated by Beast to be able to master any weapon in seconds, Black Panther states that his fighting style is fluid and constantly adapting to his opponent even mid-fight, further reflecting his brain's significantly increased processing ability, and he himself has stated that he possesses eidetic memory, whether it's from the SSS itself or not doesn't matter, he has it.

How you can't consider the combination of his mental abilities to be superhuman, I have no idea.

- "After days without sleep, after having endured much phsyical and mental punishment, he was impaled in the chest with a shovel, and managed to get back up and fight. The scans are elsewhere in this thread."

That's nice within his given human limits, but he didn't get into a rough and tumble fight with a robot and mutants with superhuman strength and durability, fall hundreds of feet, and survive with non-life-threatening injuries, especially not too long after he cut a huge hole in his chest and was suffering from severe blood loss.

- "The cylinder may well be a type of metal, but it could easily be sheet metal, such as some water tanks are made of, which would make sense that he can be thrown through."

Good, you acknowledge that he was essentially knocked through a metal tower, a wooden roof, and right into a metal shipping container/trailer while not being severely injured in the process.

- "Short is short, it doesn't have to be relative."

Yeah, it's fairly relative, just how it is in real life, not just in comics.

Superman can fall god knows how many miles and not break a single bone, a human can break their wrist attempting to break their fall from a standing position, Superman's concept of a short fall and a human's concept short fall are two very different things. Batman is not taking a fall from hundreds of feet without the assistance of his armor, cape, or anything else to dampen the impact without some form of injury, especially not under the same circumstances Steve went through with his fight with Zola and one of the mutants in Dimension Z.

"I would bet a large amount of money that his suit of armor allows for impact resistance, which also helps explain the impacts in soil, the crushed car etc..."

Impact resistance for Steve's armor only accounts for the location he's hit, it doesn't redistribute the force away from his body from landings that leave craters, especially not when he makes them legs or arms first, stop being foolish.

"If someone says a short distance to you, in the context of a helicopter hovering over ground, whats the largest distance that comes to mind?"

100 feet or more depending on mission requirements for soldiers and rescue workers, and they actually have to rappel from a rope so they don't kill themselves or break anything. Whatever distance they typically deploy from, they're certainly not going to be leaving noticeable impact craters in hardened soil or concrete, shrugging off the impact, and breaking off into a run immediately after that's for sure.

"And I'm sorry...but where was it mentioned that the firers couldn't spot him falling? That just sounds like nonsense.

Follow me for a second, it's not going to take long: 1) Hydra mooks fired a missile at the VTOL Steve and Fury were in. 2) Steve jumped out just before the missile had missed and detonated. 3) The Hydra mook that fired the missile and his spotter confirmed that they missed the target, the spotter acknowledges an unidentified object coming his way but can't confirm what it is, which was the shield thrown by Steve (he threw it with no leverage, he's in the air, remember that). 4) The shield hits both of them, diverting the next missile they were about to fire at the VTOL at their facility, and ricochets in perfect timing with Steve making landfall onto the car, where he catches it while it's in mid-flight and goes to work on the Hydra soldiers.

During that entire period between where he jumped and before he hit the ground, no one noticed Steve until after he had already landed and the rocket he had diverted had hit the facility, causing Hydra soldiers to scramble.

I'm starting to have a sneaking suspicion that you're not even reading the scans or you're taking them way out of context.

"Depends on the soil, and the distance. You think if we drop 300 pounds of metal 50 feet from the air it wont leave an impact in hardened soil?"

Sure, it'll leave an impact, just not one similar to Steve's, even if it were perfectly sculpted into his form, and definitely not from that height. I've worked in labor long enough to know what would break first if something hit the ground and at what height, metal statue or otherwise.

Unless you care to bring up a single real-life instance of a man of similar build to Steve's falling from a significant height to leave similar impact craters in a similarly hard surface, not break stride, and come out totally uninjured, I'll chalk it up to a superhuman feat.

- "Yeah? Where?"

"There are no other occurrences where his speed is stated, and no modern occurrence of him running that fast."

At one or multiple points during Brubaker's Winter Soldier run, Steve was stated as being able to run a mile over a minute. I can't be asked to dig through mountains of data to look for a specific issue, but stop being disingenuous and acting like it hasn't been brought up past the Silver Age.

Superman's superhuman intelligence is very rarely brought up or utilized by writers even though he's had it since the Silver Age, but it's something that canonically exists even now, just conveniently forgotten to make guys like Lex and Bruce stay relevant to the story, it's still part and parcel to who he is though.

"Why would you say his body should have been done for and gone? He has a very high bone density, muscle density, more muscle tissue etc...he isn't a regular out of shape human..."

Exactly, the fact that he can take impacts the way he can implies that he has a degree of superhuman durability. Any normal human would be a paraplegic, or at the very least completely lose function of their arms for the rest of their life with the way he landed, Steve's beyond normal human limits, which is precisely why I was pointing that out.

- "It's certainly impressive, again though, not superhuman. Daredevil does pretty similar things frequently, does he not?"

What? Jumping three stories, which is approximately 30 feet, from a stand-still position in a single bound when the current record for the standing high jump is only 5 feet is not a superhuman feat?

From what I have gathered from your posts so far in this thread and in others related to it, you have a very strange idea of what does and doesn't constitute 'superhuman'.

- "Now, I'm not familiar enough with Gambit, but can't Gambit control the amount of force he can use? He could have used enough just to push Cap back, as opposed to doing the equivalent of putting dynamite on his chest. Right?"

What does that even matter? The point is that what happened on-panel was that Gambit set the force of the explosion to be strong enough to destroy flora beyond where the actual explosion took place, all it did was tick Steve off, cause him to beat seven shades of crap out of Gambit right afterwards, and casually request for another uniform.

"How much are you assuming?"

Gambit made an assumption that the explosion from Steve's armor would have been enough to put him down, it didn't, you're the one assuming that he was holding back when what actually happened proved otherwise.

Honestly, you're the one making off-base assumptions about what is actually happening on-panel.

- "Sure, I never said it wasn't. It's just not superhuman.

There's a bunch of discuss athletes in the real world who can throw 4.4lbs just under 250 lbs.

And you're trying to argue that I should be impressed that an alleged superhuman threw a 12lb shield 10 or 20 feet?

Or maybe I should be impressed that it destroyed the helicopter tail? Well, I can't be because I ascribe that mainly to the shield, and the force generated by caps throw....which isn't superhuman."

"Through the top, mostly empty container, through the mostly empty cab and then it took of the radiator? Yeah, I'm not seeing that as superhuman. Sorry."

10 or 20 feet? Lowball much?

Show me a discus thrower that can throw a 12 pound, 3 feet in diameter, shield through a truck from stem to stern, through a flying rocket hundreds of meters away, through a helicopter's rotor at least a hundred feet away, and through a Panzer III from a similar distance, all from a position that doesn't require the additional build-up of momentum from a spin.

Those aren't just strength feats either, that's agility, balance, and coordination.

You are making many assumptions I've noticed, a lot of them wrong or completely unfounded.

- "Or he is just a peak human, who writers sometimes write as superhuman and his fans selectivly use those few feats to argue that he is."

Right, the same character that has gone through the course of multiple authors with consistent showings that he's operated beyond peak human bounds has folks making super-selective arguments to show that he is within the superhuman spectrum, even if it is at the low end.

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slimj87d

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#326  Edited By slimj87d

@vmole: the shovel feat was done when Bruce and Ras we're fighting by the laz pits and you clearly see a green gas go into Bruce and then later Ras as they battle each other. The next day, the wound is completely gone thanks to the Laz pits. .

The story is also questionably canon as well.

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cameron83

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#327  Edited By cameron83

@vmole: Welcome to the Vine and those were VERY good posts. I completely agree...also,most everything you said was correct. I say most because I haven't finished reading.

@slimj87d exact same to you,friend.

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cameron83

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@matteopg said:

@slimj87d: yeah, that's what I was talking about. That strenght isn't human, period. I don't know why people feel the need to deny it. I'm not as heavy on feats as others, as I said, but this is stuff he does regularly. You can't tell me that throwing an onject through solid tempered metal and iron is something a peak human can achieve. We''re talking about tearing through stuff that most shells don't penetrate with a single blow. If you put the superior endurance, and that's not even been debated because it's obvious, and the healing factor... he's nowhere near a human being.

I completely agree with you,@slimj87d and @vmole

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MatteoPG

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#329  Edited By MatteoPG
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krauser99

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Truth be told pound for pound feat for feat Cap's feats in strength, speed, durability are even better then Deathstroke, though I view them equals or close to one another. As most Slade fans would tell you that Deathstroke is superior in stats to Batman.

While Batman and Daredevil are actually more physical comparable outside of senses/radar that is.

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cameron83

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Truth be told pound for pound feat for feat Cap's feats in strength, speed, durability are even better then Deathstroke, though I view them equals or close to one another. As most Slade fans would tell you that Deathstroke is superior in stats to Batman.

While Batman and Daredevil are actually more physical comparable outside of senses/radar that is.

But Batman is stronegr,but you are correct,they are superior to DS and DS is FAR superior to Batman,

@matteopg said:

@cameron83: looks like we are the majority :)

Yup :)

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#333  Edited By chowdhurn

@muyjingo: Cap and Batman ON PAPER are both vastly superior to even the finest non metahman athletes the world has seen (batman does have much better superhuman physical feats than cap)http://batmanfeats.blogspot.com/p/powerstrength.html, http://batmanfeats.blogspot.com/p/endurance.html, http://batmanfeats.blogspot.com/p/agilityspeed.html, https://comicvine.gamespot.com/batman/4005-1699/forums/batman-feats-physical-and-mental-feats-1783533/, https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/batman-286/batman-respect-thread-627497/, https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/batman-286/batman-is-perfection-1659667/, these are some examples so whoever told you cap is superior is wrong. Also, enhanced I think means they are just barely outside human capability while superhumans are just well beyond human possibility(though to be fair it's idiotic at this point to say batman and cap aren't superhuman).

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chowdhurn

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@muyjingo: @end_boss: @sc: @kyzuko: @alexander505: @krauser99: @tupiaz: well batman is for sure in the same class as cap physically though I don't know if he is superior(on paper). However, he has much better feats than Cap. which I will try and prove later. Just look at how DC describes other peak human characters like deadshot, nightwing, green arrow, black spider, the robins, red hood, black canary, wildcat, lady shiva, Richard dragon, Bronze Tiger, or Ra's. They are all considered to be physically on par with the finest olympic athletes . However, batman is not. He is described as the pinnacle of human potential as he is in fact a physically and intellectually perfect human being. The other characters I mentioned are on par with the best olympic athletes but batman's classification is "his strength, speed, agility, reflexes, coordination, stamina, and durability is far beyond that of even the most physically gifted non meta human athletes."(http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Batman, https://www.dccomics.com/characters/batman)just like Cap. However batman IS ALWAYS PORTRAYED as superhuman. Don't believe me, here are SOME of the countless examples or batman's superhuman physical feats (http://batmanfeats.blogspot.com/p/powerstrength.html, http://batmanfeats.blogspot.com/p/endurance.html, http://batmanfeats.blogspot.com/p/agilityspeed.html, https://comicvine.gamespot.com/batman/4005-1699/forums/batman-feats-physical-and-mental-feats-1783533/, https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/batman-286/batman-respect-thread-627497/, https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/batman-286/batman-is-perfection-1659667/), the dude is capable of lifting many tons, (like when he lifted a part of a collapsed building that had him and other people trapped underneath it, or when he lifted two 2 ton sarcophaguses, or when he caught a 5000 pound gargoyle that was falling from a building, or the countless times the dark knight as lifted rocks and pillars weighing several tons),he does easily bench over 1000lbs as part of his daily workout routine, he can easily snap steel, casually put his hands through bricks, easily karate chop cars and motorcycles, easily kick through trees, he can bitch slap William Cobb (an immortal superhuman assassin known as a talon) through a 12 ft marble wall despite being heavily injured by what should be multiple fatal injuries as well as after fighting for 13 days straight, he is so fast that when he moves at top speeds he can quite literally disappear (and reappear) in an instant, he can easily dodge machine gun fire from multiple enemies at point blank range, dodge the omega beams, run faster than highway traffic, his stamina is so great that he can fight for several days straight(he has done so multiple times like in the son of the demon, batman no.0, batman rip, batman knightfall, batman the dark knight new 52, batman the court of owls, batman eternal, etc). The dude has beaten up Wonder Woman, The Flash, Kid Flash, Reverse Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman, Deathstroke, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger, and even stalemated the karate kid without any specialized equipment(and he has done so multiple times). Remember none of these feats are done by DC Rebirth Batman(except when he fought reverse flash and won). DC Rebirth Batman is vastly physically superior to all previous incarnations due to Batman being exposed by Dionesium which is what gave the talons their superhuman attributes(that is confirmed by Alfred in the comics) this dude can casually toss around Solomon grundy with one arm(remember that grundy weighs over 3000lbs), steer planes with his sheer strength, can move so fast that Mr.Bloom enhanced superhumans can't see let alone touch, and so much more crazy stuff.

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I don't know why many people have problem to get it. Steve was enhanced to reach the peak human level, because he wasn't genetically gifted to reach that level without a chemical compound. That's it.