@muyjingo said:
@vmole said:
- It was tons of steel that were bearing down on him, Sharon, and that construction guy. Considering the amount twisted mass of metal he was supporting, it sure as hell was more than hundreds of pounds worth. You also have to factor in the amount of force when it fell on him.
So, first I want to say I disagree with you, but I appreciate your well written argument.
That it is hundreds of pounds worth is an assumption on your part. It certainly doesn't look like that much in the actual scan.
Even if it is, he can support 800lbs in an overhead press as a peak human. There is nothing superhuman about what he is doing.
- It means his reflexes allow him to react to bullets mid-flight and is apparently not just limited to aim dodging. Look at the scan where Bucky fires a pistol while Steve's arms are at rest and his shield isn't raised, by the time the bullet whizzes past him he's already launched his shield to hit Bucky from behind. There's also another scan somewhere where Corrupter forces Bucky shoot Steve at pointblank range, but he manages to deflect the bullet in time off of his shield to ricochet it off multiple surfaces to hit Corrupter into Living Laser, breaking his control over Bucky.
The reason I said that I don't even know what that means, is that "seeing faster" could be interpreted in a few different ways.
Does it mean he can process visual information faster, allowing him to react faster? That seems likely, which is the same as having enhanced reflexes. Well, a bunch of peak humans have enhanced reflexes. Again, there is nothing superhuman about this.
It's fairly plausible as well, as reflexes are something that can be improved with training and experience, so given the hyper-reality of the comics, it makes sense that non superhumans could "see faster".
The problem I have with showing his reflex feats as Superhuman is that...they're not. They are no doubt impressive, but other peak, non superpowered humans have done the same thing. It isn't anything special and it certainly isn't superhuman.
- He cuts a giant gaping hole in his chest and continues to fight (in less than peak form I'm sure), he then gets into a tangle with Zola leading to a sequence where he falls hundreds of feet and bouncing off of numerous hard structures on the way down. In another unrelated fight he fights with a mutant with superhuman strength and durability during a freefall of at least a hundred feet, kicks him off in time during the fall to avoid being impaled and manages to land onto a hard surface, whether this was following his self-inflicted injury or not, I can't recall, but I'll look up the scan again.
No need. I'm well familiar with the scan, and I never said it wasn't impressive. I simply said it wasn't superhuman.
The most equivalent example is when Bruce was fighting Ra's al Ghul. After days without sleep, after having endured much phsyical and mental punishment, he was impaled in the chest with a shovel, and managed to get back up and fight. The scans are elsewhere in this thread.
- 'Short' relative to what? The distance was significant enough that the firers couldn't even spot Captain America falling out of the aircraft with the aid of binoculars. He managed to throw his shield with such force and accuracy with absolutely no leverage that it reached his target before he managed to land, that can be attributed to a strength feat on top of the fact that he lands feet first on a car without even having to roll to shed the energy from the fall, all this and he goes straight into combat with the Hydra soldiers immediately afterwards while maintaining perfect balance, which is both a durability and agility feat.
Short is short, it doesn't have to be relative. If someone says a short distance to you, in the context of a helicopter hovering over ground, whats the largest distance that comes to mind?
Anyway, again, I'm not saying what he did isn't impressive. You don't have to convince me it is. I'm saying it isn't a superhuman feat, and nothing you have said addressed that.
And I'm sorry...but where was it mentioned that the firers couldn't spot him falling? That just sounds like nonsense.
You also don't leave craters on hardened soil from a 'short fall' from a helicopter, he also doesn't roll to shed off energy from that impact either, another durability feat.
Depends on the soil, and the distance. You think if we drop 300 pounds of metal 50 feet from the air it wont leave an impact in hardened soil?
- Except it's already been established in the other stated instances that Steve can run a mile in just over a minute under duress, it's not hyperbole and is backed in other sources.
Yeah? Where?
There is a single occurrence in all of the characters history from the silver age that has him running at that stated speed.
There is a second occurrence, also from the silver age, that has him running at 50mph.
There are no other occurrences where his speed is stated, and no modern occurrence of him running that fast.
Indeed, for the last...20? years, the OHotMU have his stated speed as 30mph. Which I think makes a lot more sense.
- He was blasted through a cylinder of what can assumed to be metal of unknown thickness, a roof of what looks to be of a wooden/laminate composition, and what looks to be a metal shipping container with enough force to send him through the first two structures in a completely straight line with apparently not much loss in momentum. I'd like to see a guy that's been pushed through a metal water tower, a wooden house roof, and right into a metal shipping container under similar circumstances and not end up a torso on life support.
The cylinder can also be assumed to be drywall. It makes it easy if we just assume what the cylinder is made of to something that suits our argument.
Going by the patterns on the first two items, both appear to be made of wood. Where you see a shipping container, I see a trailer of sorts.
The cylinder may well be a type of metal, but it could easily be sheet metal, such as some water tanks are made of, which would make sense that he can be thrown through.
-He was already falling out of a plane and streamlined himself to maximize his falling velocity, which can reach up to 200mph with his given posture. War Machine's assistance didn't slow him down, just helped him guide him to his target, but even if it did, it definitely wouldn't have been enough to matter. I doubt the suit he wears provides any amount of impact resistance, especially with the force created since he cratered the ground beneath the guy's face he dropped into, not that it matters due to the fact that he dropped into him fists first. His arms and the rest of his body should have been done for, gone, he wouldn't be in fighting shape for any amount of time, especially right afterwards, yet it's still consistent with the rest of his showings with unassisted aerial drops considering that he just tanks the force of the impact and never breaks stride.
It actually looks like, to me, That he is hanging on to war machine for most of the way down, until war machine lets go and he crashes on to his adversary.
I would bet a large amount of money that his suit of armor allows for impact resistance, which also helps explain the impacts in soil, the crushed car etc...
Why would you say his body should have been done for and gone? He has a very high bone density, muscle density, more muscle tissue etc...he isn't a regular out of shape human...
Again though, at the end of the day, it isn't a superhuman feat, no matter how impressive it is.
- He jumps approximately 3 stories in a single bound in one instance, and in the other instance he vaults around on poles to a roof that's at the very least ten stories higher given the relative position of the poles to the top of the building he jumps to, he doesn't 'jump' 30 stories, look at the sequence again.
I was repeating what others had claimed, not making the claim myself.
It's certainly impressive, again though, not superhuman. Daredevil does pretty similar things frequently, does he not?
- His scene with Gambit was like strapping a couple of sticks of dynamite right on a guy's chest, its sheer concussive force capable of utterly pulverizing and shattering flesh and bone, it's not the same as wearing armor or putting something thick between yourself and a bomb to absorb the force of an explosion from meters away. The explosion itself shattered the surrounding flora, all it did was piss Steve off, another durability feat.
Now, I'm not familiar enough with Gambit, but can't Gambit control the amount of force he can use? He could have used enough just to push Cap back, as opposed to doing the equivalent of putting dynamite on his chest. Right?
How much are you assuming?
- The helicopter examples are more of an agility and coordination feat than strength since helicopters are made with light metals to improve aerodynamics, but the fact that he could throw it with enough force to shear off completely, not disrupt and jam to the point of breaking, the main and tail rotor sections from the distance he throws his shield still counts as a strength feat.
Sure, I never said it wasn't. It's just not superhuman.
There's a bunch of discuss athletes in the real world who can throw 4.4lbs just under 250 lbs.
And you're trying to argue that I should be impressed that an alleged superhuman threw a 12lb shield 10 or 20 feet?
Or maybe I should be impressed that it destroyed the helicopter tail? Well, I can't be because I ascribe that mainly to the shield, and the force generated by caps throw....which isn't superhuman.
You also ignore the fact that he threw his shield through a frigging truck.
Through the top, mostly empty container, through the mostly empty cab and then it took of the radiator? Yeah, I'm not seeing that as superhuman. Sorry.
There's also a few scans of an upcoming Captain America run where he blocks a 50mm round from a tank, smacks right into a tree from the impact, and then gets back up to throw a shield through said vehicle.
Remender does seem to be writing him as more superhuman, so that seems fine. As of the moment, as of the last 30 years, there are not a lot of modern feats that can be used to argue that he is superhuman. Not when other non superhumans have similar shows of strength, endurance and reflexes.
tl;dr, Steve's a damn superhuman and Marvel just keeps teasing its readers by stating that he's only peak.
Or he is just a peak human, who writers sometimes write as superhuman and his fans selectivly use those few feats to argue that he is.
- "That it is hundreds of pounds worth is an assumption on your part. It certainly doesn't look like that much in the actual scan."
Then look at the scan again, it's not an unfounded assumption. It's not a couple of one hundred pound weight irons, it's hundreds of feet worth of construction steel that fell on him, that's multiple tons, unless you assume that buildings of that size are built from some magical featherweight steel?
- "Does it mean he can process visual information faster, allowing him to react faster? That seems likely, which is the same as having enhanced reflexes. Well, a bunch of peak humans have enhanced reflexes. Again, there is nothing superhuman about this."
You can interpret however you want to, but everything in his body has information relayed to and from his brain at significantly increased pace, from processing visual information to see bullets mid-flight to being able to calculate a series of very complex trajectories of a bullet fired pointblank at his face to hit a target meters away. Steve is consistently shown anticipating, reacting to, and dodging bullets, not just the aim of the shooter, but the bullets themselves in many examples, blocking them when appropriate. He's been stated by Beast to be able to master any weapon in seconds, Black Panther states that his fighting style is fluid and constantly adapting to his opponent even mid-fight, further reflecting his brain's significantly increased processing ability, and he himself has stated that he possesses eidetic memory, whether it's from the SSS itself or not doesn't matter, he has it.
How you can't consider the combination of his mental abilities to be superhuman, I have no idea.
- "After days without sleep, after having endured much phsyical and mental punishment, he was impaled in the chest with a shovel, and managed to get back up and fight. The scans are elsewhere in this thread."
That's nice within his given human limits, but he didn't get into a rough and tumble fight with a robot and mutants with superhuman strength and durability, fall hundreds of feet, and survive with non-life-threatening injuries, especially not too long after he cut a huge hole in his chest and was suffering from severe blood loss.
- "The cylinder may well be a type of metal, but it could easily be sheet metal, such as some water tanks are made of, which would make sense that he can be thrown through."
Good, you acknowledge that he was essentially knocked through a metal tower, a wooden roof, and right into a metal shipping container/trailer while not being severely injured in the process.
- "Short is short, it doesn't have to be relative."
Yeah, it's fairly relative, just how it is in real life, not just in comics.
Superman can fall god knows how many miles and not break a single bone, a human can break their wrist attempting to break their fall from a standing position, Superman's concept of a short fall and a human's concept short fall are two very different things. Batman is not taking a fall from hundreds of feet without the assistance of his armor, cape, or anything else to dampen the impact without some form of injury, especially not under the same circumstances Steve went through with his fight with Zola and one of the mutants in Dimension Z.
"I would bet a large amount of money that his suit of armor allows for impact resistance, which also helps explain the impacts in soil, the crushed car etc..."
Impact resistance for Steve's armor only accounts for the location he's hit, it doesn't redistribute the force away from his body from landings that leave craters, especially not when he makes them legs or arms first, stop being foolish.
"If someone says a short distance to you, in the context of a helicopter hovering over ground, whats the largest distance that comes to mind?"
100 feet or more depending on mission requirements for soldiers and rescue workers, and they actually have to rappel from a rope so they don't kill themselves or break anything. Whatever distance they typically deploy from, they're certainly not going to be leaving noticeable impact craters in hardened soil or concrete, shrugging off the impact, and breaking off into a run immediately after that's for sure.
"And I'm sorry...but where was it mentioned that the firers couldn't spot him falling? That just sounds like nonsense.
Follow me for a second, it's not going to take long: 1) Hydra mooks fired a missile at the VTOL Steve and Fury were in. 2) Steve jumped out just before the missile had missed and detonated. 3) The Hydra mook that fired the missile and his spotter confirmed that they missed the target, the spotter acknowledges an unidentified object coming his way but can't confirm what it is, which was the shield thrown by Steve (he threw it with no leverage, he's in the air, remember that). 4) The shield hits both of them, diverting the next missile they were about to fire at the VTOL at their facility, and ricochets in perfect timing with Steve making landfall onto the car, where he catches it while it's in mid-flight and goes to work on the Hydra soldiers.
During that entire period between where he jumped and before he hit the ground, no one noticed Steve until after he had already landed and the rocket he had diverted had hit the facility, causing Hydra soldiers to scramble.
I'm starting to have a sneaking suspicion that you're not even reading the scans or you're taking them way out of context.
"Depends on the soil, and the distance. You think if we drop 300 pounds of metal 50 feet from the air it wont leave an impact in hardened soil?"
Sure, it'll leave an impact, just not one similar to Steve's, even if it were perfectly sculpted into his form, and definitely not from that height. I've worked in labor long enough to know what would break first if something hit the ground and at what height, metal statue or otherwise.
Unless you care to bring up a single real-life instance of a man of similar build to Steve's falling from a significant height to leave similar impact craters in a similarly hard surface, not break stride, and come out totally uninjured, I'll chalk it up to a superhuman feat.
- "Yeah? Where?"
"There are no other occurrences where his speed is stated, and no modern occurrence of him running that fast."
At one or multiple points during Brubaker's Winter Soldier run, Steve was stated as being able to run a mile over a minute. I can't be asked to dig through mountains of data to look for a specific issue, but stop being disingenuous and acting like it hasn't been brought up past the Silver Age.
Superman's superhuman intelligence is very rarely brought up or utilized by writers even though he's had it since the Silver Age, but it's something that canonically exists even now, just conveniently forgotten to make guys like Lex and Bruce stay relevant to the story, it's still part and parcel to who he is though.
"Why would you say his body should have been done for and gone? He has a very high bone density, muscle density, more muscle tissue etc...he isn't a regular out of shape human..."
Exactly, the fact that he can take impacts the way he can implies that he has a degree of superhuman durability. Any normal human would be a paraplegic, or at the very least completely lose function of their arms for the rest of their life with the way he landed, Steve's beyond normal human limits, which is precisely why I was pointing that out.
- "It's certainly impressive, again though, not superhuman. Daredevil does pretty similar things frequently, does he not?"
What? Jumping three stories, which is approximately 30 feet, from a stand-still position in a single bound when the current record for the standing high jump is only 5 feet is not a superhuman feat?
From what I have gathered from your posts so far in this thread and in others related to it, you have a very strange idea of what does and doesn't constitute 'superhuman'.
- "Now, I'm not familiar enough with Gambit, but can't Gambit control the amount of force he can use? He could have used enough just to push Cap back, as opposed to doing the equivalent of putting dynamite on his chest. Right?"
What does that even matter? The point is that what happened on-panel was that Gambit set the force of the explosion to be strong enough to destroy flora beyond where the actual explosion took place, all it did was tick Steve off, cause him to beat seven shades of crap out of Gambit right afterwards, and casually request for another uniform.
"How much are you assuming?"
Gambit made an assumption that the explosion from Steve's armor would have been enough to put him down, it didn't, you're the one assuming that he was holding back when what actually happened proved otherwise.
Honestly, you're the one making off-base assumptions about what is actually happening on-panel.
- "Sure, I never said it wasn't. It's just not superhuman.
There's a bunch of discuss athletes in the real world who can throw 4.4lbs just under 250 lbs.
And you're trying to argue that I should be impressed that an alleged superhuman threw a 12lb shield 10 or 20 feet?
Or maybe I should be impressed that it destroyed the helicopter tail? Well, I can't be because I ascribe that mainly to the shield, and the force generated by caps throw....which isn't superhuman."
"Through the top, mostly empty container, through the mostly empty cab and then it took of the radiator? Yeah, I'm not seeing that as superhuman. Sorry."
10 or 20 feet? Lowball much?
Show me a discus thrower that can throw a 12 pound, 3 feet in diameter, shield through a truck from stem to stern, through a flying rocket hundreds of meters away, through a helicopter's rotor at least a hundred feet away, and through a Panzer III from a similar distance, all from a position that doesn't require the additional build-up of momentum from a spin.
Those aren't just strength feats either, that's agility, balance, and coordination.
You are making many assumptions I've noticed, a lot of them wrong or completely unfounded.
- "Or he is just a peak human, who writers sometimes write as superhuman and his fans selectivly use those few feats to argue that he is."
Right, the same character that has gone through the course of multiple authors with consistent showings that he's operated beyond peak human bounds has folks making super-selective arguments to show that he is within the superhuman spectrum, even if it is at the low end.
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