I don't remember which issue, but during the Brubaker run someone asked Cap how he noticed something so quickly. He remarked he sees things three times faster than normal people. If everything about him is 3X that of a normal person, that would qualify as superhuman to me.
You got that from a wikipedia source. I write some of the entries over at marvel wikia just to let you know. Nothing from that site is actually official. Only it's sources which are sometimes wrongfully interpreted and debated privately when we write entries between users.
Let's get something straight, as I'm pretty sure you were dismissing anything from Wikipedia or the Wikia sites the last time we talked. Apologies if that was in fact not you and someone else.
Wiki sites have a reputation as being unreliable, because "anyone can edit". This generally isn't true, or at least an edit will not be approved. Within the community edits are reviewed, sources need to be provided etc. Despite the community aspect, the entries are pretty darn accurate. If anything, accuracy is proportional to the character, and so the Captain America page would be one of the most accurate.
I have no issue with disputing a Wikipedia entry, but I don't think it should be automatically dismissed, or at least not without good reason.
Still, no source is given for the jumping out of a plane feat to be classified as peak, so we need to establish that some other way.
I'm happy to do that by feats. It should not be ignored that his uniform seems to give him a significant advantage also.
Quoting from the wiki:
Uniform: As Captain America he wears a water and fire retardant costume, which is made of kevlar, nomex and light weight titanium. The costume also offers a medium level of resistance to electric shocks and force impacts i.e., falls from 30 meters height and The suit cannot be pierced by normal conventional sharp edged materials like sharp wood, glass, iron, copper and aluminum.
Do you find that to be accurate?
As for consistency, he ran at 60 MPH two times or even more as he hasn't been clocked each time he has sprinted. The two times he did it were with him holding weight or running in the snow. Peak human characters like Batman don't even run at 60 MPH one time.
Steve's upper limit for speed listed as a peak human is 30mph. In the entire history of the character there only seem to be 2 times that his running speed was actually stated. One was 60mph from the silver age, and the other time (scan somewhere in this thread I believe) was 40 something, IIRC.
Unless his speed is actually stated, we are assuming the speed. I think it makes more sense to assume his speed is not more than the upper limit Marvel puts him at.
I think that makes more sense than assuming the one time his speed was stated as double that was accurate and is in fact his upper limit. I mean, it's easy to find a scan of Batman doing something overpowered, but it makes more sense to write it of as PIS unless it is shown consistently. Steve's speed is not stated consistently...so that can't apply.
The only way to debate this is by comparing a peak human that we both agree on with Steve, and that would be Batman because by comic book standards Batman is a peak human.
OK, sure. I was happy to judge Steve on his own merits using the definitions Marvel provides. I think comparing him to Batman actually makes it a lot easier.
So we're not done with the durability thing, lets put the rest aside. With a giant hole ripped in his chest he falls several stories off of a building. Other users have already shared the scans with you when he tore a giant part of himself out of hist chest.
OK. So let's not forget the uniform advantage, is that is indeed a factor. So all I have to do is show some equivalent Batman feats, right?
I think being stabbed close to the heart with a shovel after being burned from fighting in fire and getting back up is equal to caps hole in the chest feat above.
Gallery
And here is Batman falling 30 feet and showing not even a sign of pain...this is equivalent to Cap's falling feat you posted above, no?
Gallery
Here he is getting smacked around by a supernaturally enhanced human, who is strong enough to punch through a concrete column. It doesn't seem to affect him too much.
Gallery
Impaled, blinded, multiple bones broken...still manages to win a fight against a martial artist with literally centuries of experience.
Gallery
Falling 30 stores and managing to break his fall after suffering vicious attacks before and on the way down
Gallery
Surviving in the vacuum of space for 24 seconds without protection
So from what I can see, Bruce is at least as durable as Captain America, if not more so.
Yes, I agree wiki pages are reputable, but they are only reputable as the sources they cite and most importantly the people that contribute to them. On the debate forums when it goes by versus feats, no one goes by what they say because a lot of times they are contradictory. A lot of the things you are pulling have no sources tied to them whatsoever. You are assuming that the 30 MPH thing is actually official, but what source is tied to it? Sources are tied to some facts with a [1] that you can click on. He's actually done it twice, both were in bad conditions such as him running in the snow and carrying Bucky
I don't understand why a source needs to be used to show us what is plain as day. The first scan shows him falling from so high he smashes a car in half. He does not brace himself like Batman does with his cape, this is pure free falling.
The second scan shows you you him being thrown by War Machine so fast that when he punches John Steel into the ground a crater is formed. Again he does not brace himself for the fall like Batman does.
The third scan shows him jumping out of a helicopter and a crater forms around his feat.
The fourth one shows him falling at least 10 stories 5, f stories can be counted by the buildings around him.
The fifth one I posted, he tore a giant chunk of himself out of his chest, bandaged it and fell dozens of stories, if not maybe 50 or more hitting multiple things which obviously broke his fall a bit, but he's still falling down with gravity and his acceleration is still increasing. He survives this and manages to get up.
Now lets compare them to the Batman feats you pulled up.
2. These scans show Batman using his cap to slow his fall down, then he propels himself off a window, uses the talons on his hands and then finally his grappling hook to break his fall. I don't know how this compares to Captain America straight up falling and smashing a car.
3 and 4 are pretty nice and definitely put Bruce up there in the durability department. But damage like this is hard to make any comparison to since a lot of people with normal durability have been hit against a pillar or something similar before. Just on top of my head, Iron Fist when he lost the Iron Fist power temporarily had his head slammed into a brick wall by Sabretooth twice with it slightly crumbling. And like you said earlier, Batman has armor as well so how do we know how much of that was thanks to the contribution of his armor or not?
For now, lets focus on one thing at a time and go back to the falling comparison.
5. He breaks his fall by using the talons squirrel wings and then grabs onto a hidden gargoyle no one knew about.
6. Near the end of the scan he says human bodies can survive up to 27 seconds in the vacuum of space. Not sure how this can be compared to Captain America or discredit Captain America as being enhanced. For now, lets focus on one thing at a time and go back to the falling comparison.
The comparison was supposed to be Captain America free falling without breaking his fall and the damage that was caused when he landed. We can see that Captain America did not break his fall when he fell. We can see the way that he landed, whatever gear he has could not contribute to saving his legs from being broken. The only thing that saved his legs from being broken and him surviving was in fact that he is enhanced. The following Batman scans do not show a similar free fall due to Bruce breaking his fall in different kinds of ways.
I don't remember which issue, but during the Brubaker run someone asked Cap how he noticed something so quickly. He remarked he sees things three times faster than normal people. If everything about him is 3X that of a normal person, that would qualify as superhuman to me.
That would be here
Here he dodges a bullet after it is fired 2 or 3 feet away from himself. But a lot of characters have performed a similar feat. But he throws his shield so fast that Bucky can't even react. And Bucky has great reaction feats.
And that would be Bucky saying Steve is 3 times stronger and faster than he is.
EDIT:
@muyjingo I'm starting full time graduate school and working a full time engineering job. I don't know how often I will have a chance to debate this topic. I'll try and chime in but maybe you can find someone else to debate this with that is as knowledgeable or more knowledgeable than I. If I don't respond in a timely matter, it's because I'm busy with the project I am trying to complete.
Yes, I agree wiki pages are reputable, but they are only reputable as the sources they cite and most importantly the people that contribute to them. On the debate forums when it goes by versus feats, no one goes by what they say because a lot of times they are contradictory. A lot of the things you are pulling have no sources tied to them whatsoever. You are assuming that the 30 MPH thing is actually official, but what source is tied to it? Sources are tied to some facts with a [1] that you can click on. He's actually done it twice, both were in bad conditions such as him running in the snow and carrying Bucky
The 30mph is official. It is from the most recent entry in the Official handbook of the Marvel Universe. I've posted the scan several times in the thread.
You're saying he has done it twice, so please cite the issue or show a scan. I've seen the chronological first scan, where his speed is stated. Where is this second occurrence that you say exists?
I don't understand why a source needs to be used to show us what is plain as day. The first scan shows him falling from so high he smashes a car in half. He does not brace himself like Batman does with his cape, this is pure free falling.
I'm not disputing what is in the scan, I am disputing what the feat should be classified as. Peak or Enhanced. Since I take Captain America as a peak human, I see it as a peak feat. Given how much he weighs, the height he is falling from and the protection his armor provides, I don't see anything wrong with this.
The second scan shows you you him being thrown by War Machine so fast that when he punches John Steel into the ground a crater is formed. Again he does not brace himself for the fall like Batman does.
So you are saying that Batman's feat is not valid....because he braces himself for the fall? It's still a fall...I'm not sure I follow you reasoning here.
The third scan shows him jumping out of a helicopter and a crater forms around his feat.
OK, again, this doesn't do anything to show he is enhanced as opposed to peak. Someone weighing 250lbs in protective armor falling from that height making a crater like that shown in the picture....it isn't an enhanced feat to me. Why do you think it should be considered an enhanced feat as opposed to an upper level peak feat?
The fourth one shows him falling at least 10 stories 5, f stories can be counted by the buildings around him.
OK.
The fifth one I posted, he tore a giant chunk of himself out of his chest, bandaged it and fell dozens of stories, if not maybe 50 or more hitting multiple things which obviously broke his fall a bit, but he's still falling down with gravity and his acceleration is still increasing. He survives this and manages to get up.
Sure, just as Batman has done. Not seeing evidence of him being enhanced.
Now lets compare them to the Batman feats you pulled up.
What? Definitely not. The feat wasn't his resurrection, it was him being stabbed with a shovel and getting back up, seemingly immediately. That had nothing to do with the pits. That isn't at all how the pits work.
2. These scans show Batman using his cap to slow his fall down, then he propels himself off a window, uses the talons on his hands and then finally his grappling hook to break his fall. I don't know how this compares to Captain America straight up falling and smashing a car.
It may not, but it certainly compares to the other scans you posted where Cap doesn't fall directly down.
3 and 4 are pretty nice and definitely put Bruce up there in the durability department. But damage like this is hard to make any comparison to since a lot of people with normal durability have been hit against a pillar or something similar before. Just on top of my head, Iron Fist when he lost the Iron Fist power temporarily had his head slammed into a brick wall by Sabretooth twice with it slightly crumbling. And like you said earlier, Batman has armor as well so how do we know how much of that was thanks to the contribution of his armor or not?
Batman's armor is nothing like Captain Americas armor, as described in the paragraph I quoted previously.
The armor batman was wearing also didn't stop him from getting his bones broken, face smashed in, impaled...
I mean, there are a lot more scans like this if you want to see his durability against much more powerful foes, as opposed to just the falling...
Keep in mind here, Batman doesn't have normal durability. He is Peak Human, just like I am asserting Steve is. This isn't the same as a normal human...it's quite a bit above it actually. Reinforced bones, stronger denser muscles, etc.
That seems to be from the early/mid 90's jusdging by the costime, so I don't know how accurate it still is, but it's a good reference.
Based on what I can read, the only thing that is mentioned is that it is a triple weave kevlar. It even says it is designed for maximum utility, as opposed to protection. It would seem to offer an order of magnitude less protect than Cap's costume does.
He is still mostly in costume. Also, He isn't smashing the rocks into bits, that's Namor. I see one panel where his head (in full protective armor) cracks a rock, and another where his entire body thrown against a rock makes it crack.
This isn't any more impressive than other characters also classed peak human being thrown against or through rocks/walls/pillars. It certainly doesn't show me that he should be considered enhanced and not peak.
For now, lets focus on one thing at a time and go back to the falling comparison.
Fair enough
5. He breaks his fall by using the talons squirrel wings and then grabs onto a hidden gargoyle no one knew about.
It's still an incredible height from the top floor window to the gargoyle...I don't think it should be discounted that easily.
Let's look at each of the falling scans you posted.
The first is him jumping off a roof onto a car. His hand seems to be holding something, not sure if that is being used to slow his fall or not. Even if it isn't, it's from a roof onto a car.
Second scan has him diving from an unspecified height, onto another guy with metal legs or braces, crashing into dirt, and a whole ot of dirt being thrown up. (it looks like dirt to me, if it is actually concrete or so please let me know)
Third scan is jumping from a helicopter from an unspecified height (could be a story or a few hundred feet) and landing on hard dirt. His feat make an impact...but nothing overly impressive.
The last scan is form the silver age and shows him jumping from a jet onto concrete, with no impact in the concrete. It's hard to say how high up the jet is, but it's certainly an impressive feat.
The first 3 scans don't do anything to show me that he is enhanced as opposed to peak for durability. The heights are not that impressive, and in 2 of the instances he is landing on things to break his fall.
Why is it you considered these feats enhanced? It is because of the height? Or because of what happens when he lands? Or the combination? Something else?
I'm not going to find a scan of Batman jumping out of a jet and landing unless it's from the silver age. I've been avoiding going that far back though, but if that isn't an issue for you I'll find more examples from that era.
I don't think it will be too hard to find examples of Batman crushing cars or jumping from impressive distances.
6. Near the end of the scan he says human bodies can survive up to 27 seconds in the vacuum of space. Not sure how this can be compared to Captain America or discredit Captain America as being enhanced. For now, lets focus on one thing at a time and go back to the falling comparison.
I showed that feat because it is an incredible feat for durability. It is meant to discredit Cap as enhanced because it is showing how durable a peak human is. Surviving in space for 24 seconds is a more impressive durability feat to me than jumping from a height and landing on a car/making a small impact.
Indeed, that's where all of my scans were from. It might be better just to reference that page instead of reuploading the scans here, if you're ok with that?
Indeed, the gymnastics page probably has some very nice falling/jumping feats.
The comparison was supposed to be Captain America free falling without breaking his fall and the damage that was caused when he landed. We can see that Captain America did not break his fall when he fell. We can see the way that he landed, whatever gear he has could not contribute to saving his legs from being broken. The only thing that saved his legs from being broken and him surviving was in fact that he is enhanced. The following Batman scans do not show a similar free fall due to Bruce breaking his fall in different kinds of ways.
Well there's a few points here that I disagree with.
Part of being a peak human is having an increased durability. Stronger, denser bones able to take more impact, stronger muscles, etc.
The damage caused when he landed isn't that impressive and is what would be expected for a man of his weight with protective armor on.
The heights are not established, at least in the scans provided. They may be in the comic. Jumping from say a rooftop onto a car isn't that impressive and is something batman, and probably other peak humans have done a few times.
Bruce only broke his
There are many stories of people who have survived heights greater than anything shown in the scans without a parachute.
http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/unlucky.html
Why is it hard to accept a peak human could jump from a much lesser height and be fine?
2. Captain America falling without slowing down his fall and crushing a car clearly shows his durability is enhanced.
Batman slowing down his fall and talking about how he is in a life and death situation is not comparable to the feat. I think it's pretty simple.
3. Namor clearly was slamming his body everywhere, that's how his costume fell apart in the first place.
4. A. His hand is holding his shield because he threw it. He is not holding onto anything.
B. Even if it's dirt, dirt does not crack like that without great force. Judging from that impact, it took a great amount of force that no human nonenhanced could perform.
C. Again, no human can perform the feat.
D. If you want, call in any neutral person here to estimate the height he fell from the Quinjet.
E. Scan was not
I don't see why you don't consider these feats enhanced, especially when you posted a scan of Bruce Wayne, who we both agree is a peak human talking about the dangers of him falling at those heights while being held onto by a talon breaking his fall and how his arms would tear off if he tried to stop himself any further he falls. This is exactly comparable to Arnim Zola grabbing Cap and they fall out of a building except Cap just fell down hitting walls (which honestly would barely stop your fall) and landing on the ground.
The scan also shows a car get smashed in half when the Talon lands on that. That is comparable to Captain America landing on a car and it getting smashed in half, except the Talon didn't survive like Captain America did.
So in comparison, Wayne was already talking about the dangers he was in while falling and being held by the Talon and how he had to use the Talon's wings to break his fall so he could grab onto the hidden gargoyle. The Talon dies and smashes a car in half. Comparable to
Captain America falling from a similar height with a giant hole in his chest falls off the building with Arnim Zola and survives.
Captain America falling from such a great height it smashes a car in half.
His speed is mph is not stated anywhere on that page. How is that scan relevant?
2. Captain America falling without slowing down his fall and crushing a car clearly shows his durability is enhanced.
No, it really doesn't. It shows that he is peak.
I think we need to clarify what peak means in this context.
You seem to be arguing that Cap is enhanced because he is doing things that no human can do, except that doesn't make sense.
Peak humans as defined in comics don't exist in the real world. There is no human that can run 30mph AND bench 1200lbs, yet that is exactly what peak humans are defined as being able to do. The fastest human in the real world, Olympic level runs at like 23 mph.
Peak humans also have stronger, denser bones and can take more damage than a normal human. You seem to dismiss this point, and I don't understand why.
A peak human is not the same as an extremely physically fit human in the real world. Within the comic book world, within the MU, all the feats you have shown Cap accomplishing are things a peak human is capable off.
Batman slowing down his fall and talking about how he is in a life and death situation is not comparable to the feat. I think it's pretty simple.
You are downplaying Batman's feat for some reason. The internal dialog is irrelevant. He fell at least 15 stories in freefall, from the penthouse to the gargoyle.
3. Namor clearly was slamming his body everywhere, that's how his costume fell apart in the first place.
You only uploaded one scan. It shows his head being smashed against a rock, and then it shows him being thrown against a rock surface. That's it. In any event, you originally said that it showed Namor flinging Cap against rocks causing rocks to explode.
Your exact words were:
His fight with Namor. Namor was slamming and hitting him against rocks and boulders on the beach causing the cause to explode to pieces.
That clearly isn't the case.
4. A. His hand is holding his shield because he threw it. He is not holding onto anything.
Sorry, that was my misunderstanding.
B. Even if it's dirt, dirt does not crack like that without great force. Judging from that impact, it took a great amount of force that no human nonenhanced could perform.
What are you talking about? Drop a 250lbs weight that's harder than dirt from high enough, the dirt will crack. There's nothing really special about this.
Being peak human he can survive the impact. His shows are protective armor and no doubt help in making the impact. This feat does nothing to establish him as enhanced as opposed to peak.
C. Again, no human can perform the feat.
No human in the real world. But so what? Regular humans in comics do things no real human can perform. Peak humans are not bound by what is possible in the real world. A peak human in comics can most certainly perform that feat.
D. If you want, call in any neutral person here to estimate the height he fell from the Quinjet.
Sure, I'd be curious to get some estimates.
E. Scan was not
I have no idea what this means, because you are replying out of context. As a small favor, it would you be able to quote the sections of my reply that you are addressing? It makes it a lot easier for me, and probably many others to follow the conversation.
I don't see why you don't consider these feats enhanced, especially when you posted a scan of Bruce Wayne, who we both agree is a peak human talking about the dangers of him falling at those heights while being held onto by a talon breaking his fall and how his arms would tear off if he tried to stop himself any further he falls. This is exactly comparable to Arnim Zola grabbing Cap and they fall out of a building except Cap just fell down hitting walls (which honestly would barely stop your fall) and landing on the ground.
So now you're saying that Batman was breaking his fall because a talon was attacking him on the way down? Really? The talon wasn't breaking his fall. The talon was attacking him...if anything that would make him fall faster. He was in freefall from the penthouse to the gargoyle.
Yes, it is dangerous to fall from that height. Cap hasn't jumped from that height in any of the scan's you've shown, aside from the one with the quinjet, maybe.
Given how it shows him flipping, I don't think the quinjet was that high either.
The scan also shows a car get smashed in half when the Talon lands on that. That is comparable to Captain America landing on a car and it getting smashed in half, except the Talon didn't survive like Captain America did.
So in comparison, Wayne was already talking about the dangers he was in while falling and being held by the Talon and how he had to use the Talon's wings to break his fall so he could grab onto the hidden gargoyle. The Talon dies and smashes a car in half. Comparable to
In comparison, we have at least one confirmed feat of Batman freefalling at least 15 stories. I mean, did we read the same panel? Bruce states that due to the pain and blood loss he can't do anything except watch the city rise up to greet him. He says if he falls too far he won't be able to break his arm, which is why he doesn't fall all the way and stops at the gargoyle.
He isn't using the talons wings to break his fall...the talon is on top of him. We don't see the talons wings until Bruce is already on the gargoyle.
This is a valid feat, I don't know why you don't consider it so.
As I mentioned, there are other feats on the batman feats blog. On the agility page it has a feat of him diving off a building without any kind of support to break his fall, and landing fine.
Here we have him falling from a height and landing on a car, with only the windshield showing to be cracked
Here we have him freefalling with no support, no breaking his fall, standing fine in the alley after the fact.
Captain America falling from a similar height with a giant hole in his chest falls off the building with Arnim Zola and survives.
I don't see that as more impressive than Bruce's feat above. Cap's injury looks worse, but Bruce was bleeding from all his major arteries.
Captain America falling from such a great height it smashes a car in half.
Yeah, you posted that feet above already. As I said, it isn't anything impressive for a peak human. It's exactly what a peak human should be capable off.
He weighs about 250 pounds. That's about a quarter of a pound. His costume is highly protective and durable. It's made from, in part, lightweight titanium. It says that it provides resistance for falls from 30 meters in height. I'm really not seeing anything contradictory here. Everything you've posted shows him consistent with him being a peak human.
If you disagree with that, then we need to go over what the most you think a peak human should be capable of before we can discuss this any further.
I would like to keep focusing on the free falling. The running scan, I would suggest you reread it.
Yes we read the same scan when he's falling out with the Talon and I will point out again that he used the Talon's wing flaps to slow down and break his fall.
1. The first scan you show Batman using a canopy to break his fall, and when he lands on a car he still gets hurt and ends up on the floor.
2. Second scan he is using his cape as a glider like he commonly does.
Again, both scans prove that Batman cannot fall from great heights and does not risk doing so because of the damage he would sustain. Just from falling on a low rise building and using a canopy to break his fall he ends up hurt on the floor.
I wouldn't like to move on without getting a census from neutral parties because it seems we're both agreeing to disagree here.
I just want to talk about the scan of Cap outrunning the birds, and hopefully, clarify it, though it isn't posted, there is a page in the comic before that where the rider states the birds are capable of running 50mph. I'll try to find it.
Here you go Slim. Another reference by the writer Waid. That Steve can run a mile a minute. :) (Second scan below is the reference but the first one says some cool things about Steve too.)
:My brother you have been running a mile a minute since they shot you up with the Super Soldier Serum.
Seriously!? This is kind of desperate for even Batman feats. You have a fall where he lands on a canopy and then a car with no damage at all to the car. Showing the impact was rather weak, in comparison to Cap's demolishing a vehicle on his fall.
To another one with Batman gliding down to the ground safely is being compared to Steve's free falls. Not even remotely the same. It's like comparing a man swimming in water to a man running on water. How can anyone pass these off as even being "some" what similar.
@slimj87d: Is quoting really so hard? It would make the conversation a lot easier to follow, rather than having to go back and read my post to see what you're replying to.
Anyway.
I don't need to reread the running scan. The speed wasn't stated, and k4tzm4n had to upload it.
So we have an additional scan from the silver age where his speed is stated as 50mph. That's two occurrences in the entire history of the character, where his speed is outright stated, correct?
I don't see any point in discussing this further, as I think tg1982 and I covered this point eloquently. Essentially, 2 occurrences from the silver age where he is running beyond his limits isn't sufficient enough for me to consider the character as more than peak. If people want to assume that is the upper limit of the character, then so be it.
You don't want to acknowledge any of the Batman falling feats because you say he is breaking his fall in each one. OK. Keep in mind he is falling from far greater heights than Captain America is shown to be falling from, so the feats are not directly comparable.
The one feat I do think is valid is the feat where the talon attacks him. You insist he is using the talons wings to break his fall, but I don't see that anywhere in the panels. Let's break that particular feat down.
So here we have the height of the building and the distance Bruce falls. The building is described as a 30 story building I believe, which makes that fall at least 15 stories. It looks like more than half, so probably more.
So here we see him falling, not breaking his fall in any way.
Again, not breaking his fall in any way.
Fighting on the way down, this doesn't count as breaking his fall. If anything, it would make it harder for him to do so.
Here they are about halfway down, no wings, still fighting, no breaking of the fall
In the next panel, we see the talons wings for the first time. Bruce is no longer close to the talon and is already on the gargoyle.
We can see in the talons reflection that Bruce is hanging on to the gargoyle, which is how he saved himself.
So he freefalled about 15 stories and managed to hang on to a secret gargoyle to save himself. That's the whole point of the internal dialog at the start by the way....the non secret gargoyle were too far and would have torn his arm off. This gargoyle was closer and he was able to reach it sooner and save himself.
Now, where is the evidence of him break his fall, at all?
Here we have him safely on the gargoyle. Oh, and the Talon crushing the car? That's what happens when heavy things fall from great heights on to a car.
In any case, it doesn't matter if Batman has any scans showing the same feat or not. If you really want to stick by using a peak human as reference, perhaps I can find examples of other peak humans outside Batman? He isn't the only peak human, after all.
The feats you posted do not show Captain America as enhanced. That's the point we need to establish.
A peak human is far more durable than any human than cat exist in the real world. Those feats are in line with what a peak human in the comics is capable of.
The craters are not impressive in the least. Drop a 250lb weight harder than soil/hard dirt and it will make an impact. It's simple physics. That goes for crushing the car as well.
Just to show some calculations, that I used this site for:
A weight of 250 pounds (113 kilograms) falling from ~100 feet (30 meters) will have a velocity of ~80 feet/s (~25m/s). His impact force in newtons is 33222, which equates to 7468 pounds-force. More than enough to destroy a car as seen in the scan. As far as his impact craters are concerned:
Keeping in mind his protective uniform and peak durability (stronger denser muscle and bone), There is absolutely nothing about this that shows him to be enhanced and not peak.
You never explained why you think these feats show him as enhanced and not peak. Forget comparing him to batman for a minute, and just explain why you think the falling feats show him as peak.
I'm fine with getting neutral input, but I don't see that happening in the Captain America forum. We would need a special thread in the general forum maybe, that wasn't specific to any character. Does that sound reasonable?
In the last scan you uploaded, it is clear "mile a minute" is being used as a figure of speech because he has been overworked, not his literal running speed.
In the last scan you uploaded, it is clear "mile a minute" is being used as a figure of speech because he has been overworked, not his literal running speed.
Nope. Hence why he states it along with the SSS injection. Since Bucky was the one being carried by Cap when he did that feat....LOL. You can't put it to together.
I guess Bucky stating Steve is the strongest and toughest man, since he is one of a kind is also a figure of speech. But then again you thought Batman landing on a canopy and then car is equivalent to Steve's falls.
Here he is getting smacked around by a supernaturally enhanced human, who is strong enough to punch through a concrete column. It doesn't seem to affect him too much.
Gallery
Impressive but standard street feats as far as this is concerned and most skilled streets can roll with it. Steve goes beyond this type of strike punishment, in fact a strike that sends him miles above in the sky.
Or how about a powerful blast enough that it sends Cap through some buildings and he collides in the third building. Batman would be dead from these two strikes and if not it would be massive silliness from that writers part. Or at least crippled for life.
Because I wouldn't have if you didn't tell me to....?
I was just giving k4tzm4n credit for the scan. I only put your name on there so it would be in your notifications and you'd be able to jump right to it and see the scan. And I didn't realize it was under your name and not his. The whole quote was meant to be "Thanks k4tzm4n for the scan. Dude, you rock so hard, thanks" I wasn't trying to tell you what you should or shouldn't do. Sorry for the confusion.
In the last scan you uploaded, it is clear "mile a minute" is being used as a figure of speech because he has been overworked, not his literal running speed.
Nope. Hence why he states it along with the SSS injection. Since Bucky was the one being carried by Cap when he did that feat....LOL. You can't put it to together.
Dude, it's a figure of speech. He didn't say "you run a mile a minute", he said "You've been running a mile a minute since they shot you up with SSS" If you're taking it as literal, then Steve would be running a mile a minute non-stop, which is obviously not the case. Sounds like you're the one who can't put it together.
On a side note, to no one in particular, I've enjoyed my time on this thread when muyjingo and I talked and debated civilly without any insults or condescending overtones. I hope it continues.
I was just giving k4tzm4n credit for the scan. I only put your name on there so it would be in your notifications and you'd be able to jump right to it and see the scan. And I didn't realize it was under your name and not his. The whole quote was meant to be "Thanks k4tzm4n for the scan. Dude, you rock so hard, thanks" I wasn't trying to tell you what you should or shouldn't do. Sorry for the confusion.
No, my bad. I should have known it was something like that. When I wrote that I had had little sleep, was frustrated and probably being more of a dick than I usually am. So..sorry.
On a side note, to no one in particular, I've enjoyed my time on this thread when muyjingo and I talked and debated civilly without any insults or condescending overtones. I hope it continues.
That makes me glad to hear you say :) I also enjoyed our discussion very much. I don't know if slimj87d and I will ever agree or change each others minds, but as long as the debate is civil I think it can be entertaining, enjoyable and we will both walk away with some new knowledge and insight.
These debates and conversations should be enjoyable, even if we don't agree with each other. If it turns into a verbal fight, it's just an overall negative thing which isn't good for anyone.
I was just giving k4tzm4n credit for the scan. I only put your name on there so it would be in your notifications and you'd be able to jump right to it and see the scan. And I didn't realize it was under your name and not his. The whole quote was meant to be "Thanks k4tzm4n for the scan. Dude, you rock so hard, thanks" I wasn't trying to tell you what you should or shouldn't do. Sorry for the confusion.
No, my bad. I should have known it was something like that. When I wrote that I had had little sleep, was frustrated and probably being more of a dick than I usually am. So..sorry.
No worries, I didn't even take it like that. We're good.
On a side note, to no one in particular, I've enjoyed my time on this thread when muyjingo and I talked and debated civilly without any insults or condescending overtones. I hope it continues.
That makes me glad to hear you say :) I also enjoyed our discussion very much. I don't know if slimj87d and I will ever agree or change each others minds, but as long as the debate is civil I think it can be entertaining, enjoyable and we will both walk away with some new knowledge and insight.
These debates and conversations should be enjoyable, even if we don't agree with each other. If it turns into a verbal fight, it's just an overall negative thing which isn't good for anyone.
Yeah, I agree completely. People don't need to agree to be able to have fun. We're proof of that!!!! LOL. And the second it gets turned into a flame war or any other way negative it usually makes everyone lose.
Because I wouldn't have if you didn't tell me to....?
I was just giving k4tzm4n credit for the scan. I only put your name on there so it would be in your notifications and you'd be able to jump right to it and see the scan. And I didn't realize it was under your name and not his. The whole quote was meant to be "Thanks k4tzm4n for the scan. Dude, you rock so hard, thanks" I wasn't trying to tell you what you should or shouldn't do. Sorry for the confusion.
In the last scan you uploaded, it is clear "mile a minute" is being used as a figure of speech because he has been overworked, not his literal running speed.
Nope. Hence why he states it along with the SSS injection. Since Bucky was the one being carried by Cap when he did that feat....LOL. You can't put it to together.
Dude, it's a figure of speech. He didn't say "you run a mile a minute", he said "You've been running a mile a minute since they shot you up with SSS" If you're taking it as literal, then Steve would be running a mile a minute non-stop, which is obviously not the case. Sounds like you're the one who can't put it together.
On a side note, to no one in particular, I've enjoyed my time on this thread when muyjingo and I talked and debated civilly without any insults or condescending overtones. I hope it continues.
Sounds like your the one who can't figure it out. Bucky even gives Steve props on being a human being that in his mind he is the strongest and toughest human. As he states there is no one like Steve. Another figure of speech. Clearly not.
But feel free to disagree as you also missed it. It must just be a silly coincidence that it some what matches well, with Ed Brubaker's running feat? I don't think so.
Bucky even gives Steve props on being a human being that in his mind he is the strongest and toughest human.
No one is disputing that Steve is the toughest and strongest human. That's the whole point of Captain America, to be the best that any human can be. What the dispute is, is the level of strength and toughness. Peak or more. The scan we are referencing does little, if anything, IMO, to help the case that he is more than peak human.
The first part of the speech? No, I think it's accurate. Steve is the strongest and toughest a human can be. But the second part, where he says to Steve that he's been running a mile a minute since he got the SSS, is a figure of speech. Bucky was meaning that Steve has been working too hard. Bucky could've also said "You've been busting your butt." And the whole message of that part of the speech wouldn't have changed.
It must just be a silly coincidence that it some what matches well, with Ed Brubaker's running feat? I don't think so.
It doesn't match up with any running feat at all, he's not even running. It's Bucky saying that Steve's been working too hard. But whatever. I've given my opinion on it.
Bucky even gives Steve props on being a human being that in his mind he is the strongest and toughest human.
No one is disputing that Steve is the toughest and strongest human. That's the whole point of Captain America, to be the best that any human can be. What the dispute is, is the level of strength and toughness. Peak or more. The scan we are referencing does little, if anything, IMO, to help the case that he is more than peak human.
The first part of the speech? No, I think it's accurate. Steve is the strongest and toughest a human can be. But the second part, where he says to Steve that he's been running a mile a minute since he got the SSS, is a figure of speech. Bucky was meaning that Steve has been working too hard. Bucky could've also said "You've been busting your butt." And the whole message of that part of the speech wouldn't have changed.
It must just be a silly coincidence that it some what matches well, with Ed Brubaker's running feat? I don't think so.
It doesn't match up with any running feat at all, he's not even running. It's Bucky saying that Steve's been working too hard. But whatever. I've given my opinion on it.
Yes it does match up well with Bru's running feat. In Bru's running feat he has Steve run a mile just over a minute as stated on panel. Hence Waid having Bucky say run a mile a minute. But feel free to disagree.
I can see how it could be taken as a figure of speech but this is what Steve did and Buck knows it.
Yes it does match up well with Bru's running feat. In Bru's running feat he has Steve run a mile just over a minute as stated on panel. Hence Waid having Bucky say run a mile a minute. But feel free to disagree.
I can see how it could be taken as a figure of speech but this is what Steve did and Buck knows it.
Yes it does match up well with Bru's running feat. In Bru's running feat he has Steve run a mile just over a minute as stated on panel. Hence Waid having Bucky say run a mile a minute. But feel free to disagree.
I can see how it could be taken as a figure of speech but this is what Steve did and Buck knows it.
Says the guy who thought Bruce fall on to a canopy or gliding down safely to the ground is equal to Steve's free falls. Nice try though.
You couldn't even counter my strike feats of Steve that sent Steve miles in the sky or the other through buildings. :)
Here he is getting smacked around by a supernaturally enhanced human, who is strong enough to punch through a concrete column. It doesn't seem to affect him too much.
Gallery
Impressive but standard street feats as far as this is concerned and most skilled streets can roll with it. Steve goes beyond this type of strike punishment, in fact a strike that sends him miles above in the sky.
Or how about a powerful blast enough that it sends Cap through some buildings and he collides in the third building. Batman would be dead from these two strikes and if not it would be massive silliness from that writers part. Or at least crippled for life.
@krauser99: Thanks man! That's pretty much 3 separate references to him running at 60 MPH.
@tg1982 It's actually a more advanced version of a figure of speech called a double entendre.
@muyjingo It actually is very hard for me to do a nicely formatted quoted post due to my time constraints. Like I said, I am a full time engineer (40 to 55 hours of my week) and now a full time graduate student (40+ hours a week). That's not even counting my dogs and my GF.
Just to respond to you I have to sacrifice an hour of sleep at night.
@slimj87d: I didn't know that. Congratulations on balancing full time study and full time work, I've done that before, I know firsthand how exhausting it can be.
@slimj87d: I didn't know that. Congratulations on balancing full time study and full time work, I've done that before, I know firsthand how exhausting it can be.
Thanks! I'm a little scared but got to take it to the next step.
@slimj87d: It's totally worth it imo....the feeling of personal accomplishment alone. The higher salary job offers offers never hurt :)
Back on topic.....are you saying that the last scan krauser uploaded, where Bucky says he is running a mile a minute should be taken literally? As evidence that he can run 60mph? Otherwise, I don't know what the 3rd reference of him running that fast would be.
@slimj87d: It's totally worth it imo....the feeling of personal accomplishment alone. The higher salary job offers offers never hurt :)
Back on topic.....are you saying that the last scan krauser uploaded, where Bucky says he is running a mile a minute should be taken literally? As evidence that he can run 60mph? Otherwise, I don't know what the 3rd reference of him running that fast would be.
Well just from my knowledge alone he has done it 2 times before I saw that scan. I think I have seen him run and catch up to a jeep and hop in the car a few times, but I would have to go through my disc collection and that's a lot of scans I would have to read through.
From a writing perspective, I took it as a double entendre, a phrase that has two meanings. One is subtle while the other you have to catch upon it. It's quite obvious that he can run 60 MPH because he's done it before and Bucky knows because he had to do it to save Bucky's life. But subtly, we know Bucky is also talking about his great physical prowess, he needs to take a break and relax because he's operating and exhausting himself like when he sprints.
@slimj87d: The scan k4tzman uploaded shows him running at 50mph, not 60mph. Still, obviously faster than the 30mph for peak. My point is that there are only 2 scans where his speed is directly stated, and 1 where his speed is stated as 60mph.
I don't think the scan krauser posted can be considered a double entendre, at all.I wouldn't say it's obvious that he can run at 60mph at all. Yes, he has done it once in a silver age issue. His stated speed is 30mph and I think that is far more the speed his is typically portrayed as running at. That scan seems to be from a far more recent issue...I don't think the writer would have deliberately referenced an instance of him running that fast.
The simpler explanation imo is that it's just a figure of speech...nothing more than that. It requires a lot more assumptions to take it as a double entendre like you're suggesting.
Also, as far as the jumping and landing on cars thing, I found a scan showing deadpool diving with the punisher out a window, and landing on a car demolishing it, if you're interested....
@slimj87d: The scan k4tzman uploaded shows him running at 50mph, not 60mph. Still, obviously faster than the 30mph for peak. My point is that there are only 2 scans where his speed is directly stated, and 1 where his speed is stated as 60mph.
I don't think the scan krauser posted can be considered a double entendre, at all.I wouldn't say it's obvious that he can run at 60mph at all. Yes, he has done it once in a silver age issue. His stated speed is 30mph and I think that is far more the speed his is typically portrayed as running at. That scan seems to be from a far more recent issue...I don't think the writer would have deliberately referenced an instance of him running that fast.
The simpler explanation imo is that it's just a figure of speech...nothing more than that. It requires a lot more assumptions to take it as a double entendre like you're suggesting.
Also, as far as the jumping and landing on cars thing, I found a scan showing deadpool diving with the punisher out a window, and landing on a car demolishing it, if you're interested....
That scan I think I supplied to K4 in the past. He outruns the native birds of that land, so he ran faster than them. And it's in the snow.
I can see where you are coming from, but it's left up to interpretation. I would take it as a figure of speech if I NEVER saw him run at 60 MPH. But I've seen him do something greater than just running 60 MPH twice. And that's what makes it a double entrende.
Lastly, the handbooks can be wrong, user shawnbaby has proven to me that they're not always %100 accurate. Posted within the same year of 2005, Mystique's intel and fighting experience changed up.
@krauser99: Thanks man! That's pretty much 3 separate references to him running at 60 MPH.
I'm glad you liked it man! Maybe if that so called figure of speech happened before Ed Brubaker's running feat. They would have more of a point but it happened after the fact. Waid even mimicked some of Bru's style by having Steve say after another person is concerned about his health. No worries I heal fast. Or something like that.
Like I stated before as I could see how it can be viewed as a figure of speech but it's no coincidence why that "particular" figure of speech was used. Has anyone ever used such a figure of speech for characters like Deathstroke, Batman, Daredevil, Ironfist?
Nope and there is a reason for that. Doesn't mean now it won't happen in the future since Waid used it in a manner as a double entendre. But at least we now no why it appeared thanks to Ed Brubakers running feat. :)
I don't think it will catch on the phrase....but it would be funny if it did.
That's fair enough. I'll buy the argument for him running 60mph with the birds. I just don't think it changes anything. Why? Because both those occurrences are from the silver age, and it's not something that is shown consistently. I mean, I can buy he ran 60mph on those two occasions due to an increase in adrenaline or something, but it certainly isn't typical for the character.
It's fine to believe that those feats are typical for the character, but to make a case objectively you would have to show the feat more consistently than has been shown. I don't think that is possible, so it becomes a matter of interpretation.
Personally I think it makes more sense to go by the guidebook for a general representation and profile of the character, rather than trying to use rare, outlier feats to characterize the typical power levels of the character. But then, I seem to be in the minority on that viewpoint.
But in that case, why not take Batman's outlier/PIS feats and attempt to categorize the character that way? He has punched gods, taken hits from gods, taken hits from sueprman, made the spectre bleed, made darkseid bleed, kick down bomb shelter steel doors, held up ceilings weighing 1000lbs, caught bullets, caught arrows fired by green arrow, kicked a sword in half, survived in space without a space suit, been impaled by a shovel and kept fighting etc...
I mean, if I use all of Batman's outlier highend feats, I could probably make a pretty convincing case that he is more than peak human. That is exactly what people are doing with Cap. So why does one make sense, and not the other?
I strongly disagree that the scan krauser gave is a double entendere. Even if I didn't contest that Cap ran at that speed and whole heatedly endorsed it, it still wouldn't be a double entendre. The wording doesn't support it. There is no interpretation of the statement that would make sense to interpret as him being able to run at that speed. It's pretty clearly a metaphor for how hard he has been pushing himself, regardless of if he can run at that speed or not.
I'm not disputing the handbooks are flawless, but as canon sources on the characters I think they are for the majority a hell of a lot more reliable than the biased interpretations of fans, based on cherry picked feats from the comics. I'm not familiar with the entries you posted...are they from the same handbook, an updated version, or what?
When you have time, I'd be interested in your responses to/thoughts on:
Why you don't consider Bruce to be freefalling above. I did a pretty detailed breakdown and would be curious as to why you still disagree.
Why you consider the feats you posted not to be capable as being performed by a peak human, given how a peak human is defined
Your thoughts on humans less physically fit than Cap, such as Punisher, falling out of buildings onto cars, crushing them, and surviving fine.
Like I stated before as I could see how it can be viewed as a figure of speech but it's no coincidence why that "particular" figure of speech was used. Has anyone ever used such a figure of speech for characters like Deathstroke, Batman, Daredevil, Ironfist?
Nope and there is a reason for that. Doesn't mean now it won't happen in the future since Waid used it in a manner as a double entendre. But at least we now no why it appeared thanks to Ed Brubakers running feat. :)
Wait wait wait wait...
Are you trying to say that the figure of speech "running a mile a minute" can only be used against characters, or when talking about people that can literally run a mile a minute?
You realize that makes no sense at all, right?
You're taking a figure of speech literally, and that just doesn't make sense. By the way, it isn't a double entendre. That's a huge stretch and requires assumptions to make that interpretation work. It's just a metaphor, not to be taken literally.
Need proof? Simply Google "been running a mile a minute" and see many examples of people using the phrase in the exact same way....
@muyjingo: Actually the latest occurrence is not silver age, that was just the guest artists style since it was his 65th anniversary issue. It happened a few years ago. The double entrende was written a year or so after that. But okay, lets just disregard the second scan then. He's still done something more impressive 2 times.
And I have taken Batman's outlier feats to compare with. Me and this guy (who got banned for racial slurs) @Dexstarr have gone pages and pages of debating how Batman is not physically on par. We went 5+ pages of full scans and content.
A summary of what happened was that Batman is no where close to Captain America in physical stats, but his gear and skills are what makes them neck and neck.
I've told you why I don't consider Bruce freefalling anywhere near Captain America's freefalling. The talon is shown to be breaking their fall with his wings, theres nothing we can calculate from that. It shows nothing of the landing for me to calculate or come to any conclusions. Not like this.
The is the complete opposite of what happened to Batman. Captain America was trying to gain momentum, instead of breaking his fall he wanted to fall in faster and harder so they wouldn't notice him. He even had War Machine grab and propel him even faster.
@slimj87d: I posted a detailed breakdown of Bruce Freefalling above. Maybe you missed it? I showed every panel, and no where is Bruce shown to be breaking his fall with the talons wings. We don't even see his wings until Bruce is already on the gargoyle.
This is an assumption on your part, and not supported by the actual scans at all. It's things like this where I feel you are making excuses to dismiss bruce's feats, while being very forgiving of Cap's feats.
And again, the figure of speech was not a double entendre. It just isn't. If you really want to debate this, how about we post it on a site like english.stackexchange.com which deals exactly with questions like that, and see what people say? Even if Cap run's at 60mph, it was just a metaphor.
I'm not discounting the last scan, that is surely impressive, but you've still failed to address the points of why you think that feat makes him enhanced. That feat is exactly what a peak human is capable of, not to mention the protective armor he is wearing, which far outclasses Batman's.
Let's face it though, Cap running at 60mph is an outlier feat, not something consistently shown or can be argued to be typical of the character.
You're an engineer, so you should understand better than most why him jumping from a roof onto a car or from a low flying helicopter into dirt and making an impact isn't as impressive as it seem.
Here is Deadpool tackling Frank out of a building onto a car:
Two occurrences actually shown running at 60mph, one from the silver age
Various scans of him jumping/falling from low heights, making an impact
He does things no regular human could do so he must be enhanced. Dismissing the possibility of him being peak.
I'm sorry, but unless I've missed something none of that makes a good argument that he is enhanced and not peak, I've explained why a few times above.
I'd be interested to see the thread you refer to above where Batman's physicals were compared, because as of the moment from what I can see, if we go by outlier feats to characterize both characters, Batman comes out ahead.
@slimj87d: I posted a detailed breakdown of Bruce Freefalling above. Maybe you missed it? I showed every panel, and no where is Bruce shown to be breaking his fall with the talons wings. We don't even see his wings until Bruce is already on the gargoyle.
This is an assumption on your part, and not supported by the actual scans at all. It's things like this where I feel you are making excuses to dismiss bruce's feats, while being very forgiving of Cap's feats.
And again, the figure of speech was not a double entendre. It just isn't. If you really want to debate this, how about we post it on a site like english.stackexchange.com which deals exactly with questions like that, and see what people say? Even if Cap run's at 60mph, it was just a metaphor.
I'm not discounting the last scan, that is surely impressive, but you've still failed to address the points of why you think that feat makes him enhanced. That feat is exactly what a peak human is capable of, not to mention the protective armor he is wearing, which far outclasses Batman's.
Let's face it though, Cap running at 60mph is an outlier feat, not something consistently shown or can be argued to be typical of the character.
You're an engineer, so you should understand better than most why him jumping from a roof onto a car or from a low flying helicopter into dirt and making an impact isn't as impressive as it seem.
Here is Deadpool tackling Frank out of a building onto a car:
Two occurrences actually shown running at 60mph, one from the silver age
Various scans of him jumping/falling from low heights, making an impact
He does things no regular human could do so he must be enhanced. Dismissing the possibility of him being peak.
I'm sorry, but unless I've missed something none of that makes a good argument that he is enhanced and not peak, I've explained why a few times above.
I'd be interested to see the thread you refer to above where Batman's physicals were compared, because as of the moment from what I can see, if we go by outlier feats to characterize both characters, Batman comes out ahead.
First off, you asked me for a show of consistency and I have had to show more than one common occurrence. I am not at all dismissing Bruce's free falling feat. It is completely incalculable. Like you complained about the MPH scan earlier because he had nothing for us to base any numbers off of, while Bruce is wrestling with the Talon, you can see under his armpit his squirrel suit is executed, immediately after Bruce hopped off the Talon we could see that his squirrel suit is still executed.
I've already said it's a pretty nice feat, but my reasons for dismissing it as a comparable feat to all the scans I showed of Captain America are that my feats have no unknowns. We either have where Steve started and where Steve landed OR we have the damage caused by his fall. In some cases, we have both of them. Bruce's feat does not compare.
If you are interested then feel free, there's a new one going on right now as we speak. Feel free to join in and debate it against other people and not just me.
You've shown consistency for his falling/jumping and landing feats. While impressive, this doesn't do anything to show him as enhanced. It simply shows him as peak as per Marvel's definition.
You've yet to make a case why you think this shows him to be enhanced.
You have not shown consistency for him running at 60mph. 1 occurrence from the silver age and a single modern occurrence (written as a tribute to silver age stories?) is not consistent.
And where in the world are you seeing the squirrel suit open? Could you take the panel where you see it an add an arrow? I mean, we see the silhouette of them falling, we see them grabbing on to each other...no where is the squirrel suit shown. Seriously, that's a completely unreasonable assumption.
As for not having the numbers, we have the height and weight, so I don't know why you would say that.
@tg1982 What is your opinion on Bruce freefalling, based on the breakdown I posted above?
Again, most of cap's falling/jumping feat's are just not impressive..jumping off a roof onto a car or from a low lying helicopter isn't that much of a feat. Certainly in line with what a peak human is capable of. Since I provided calculations showing this as well as similar feats from the punisher, I'm guessing you agree.
I'll check out that battle thread, thanks. I have checked out other threads where you've argued your point, and your arguing a similar thing here as you did in the Does Batman Always Win thread. You're overstating Cap's abilities, and holding him to a higher level than the feats show.
@muyjingo: I have made a case, and we're just discussing the free falling part, there's lots of things we can discuss, but this has to finish before we move on. We both agreed to use a character we both consider the "peak of man." That person is Batman. We went over freefalling durability, I challenged you to show me anything Batman has done that is nearly as impressive and you haven't shown me anything. You started off by showing a bunch of scans of him breaking his falls. Again, we can invite neutral parties to comment on what we have presented. It honestly is the best way.
FIrst circle shows Bruce holding the Talons arm open, second scan clearly shows the moment of release when he separates himself to catch the Gargoyle.
I agreed to use Batman, but if Batman doesn't have feats that you don't think are directly comparable, I'm not going to concede my point. Not when there are so many other ways to make it.
Without comparing Caps feats to anyone, they are not beyond what a peak human can do. Batman or other heroes don't have to come into the picture.
I actually think it's really hard to argue points that way, unless there are directly comparable feats. For example, there are feats of both of them benching over 1000lbs, holding up ceilings etc. There is no feat of Cap surviving in space without a spacesuit (which I think is a hell of a lot more impressive for durability than landing on a car...), yet that doesn't mean Cap isn't at a similar level to Batman...
I agree Bruce was breaking most of his falls. He was also falling from far greater heights than Cap was. So while they are not directly comparable, they are not
I think it's absolutely wrong that you assert the squirrel suit was open in the scans above. The second scan is after Bruce is already on the gargoyle. Meaning the talon couldn't open his suit until he was free of Bruce.
The first scan clearly shows the squirrel suit is not open...I don't know you think a glimmer of metal in an armpit indicates it is, considering it is a)not shown on both sides and b) nothing like what is shown in the second scan.
I'm more than happy to take input from third parties...fresh and additional perspectives can only help. Not sure how to atrract opinions though. This thread has a lot of views, but not a lot of commenters...
Honestly though, I'd like to move away from the freefalling feat. You were arguing the freefalling to argue durability, right?
As I said, even without comparing to feats from other characters, the freefalling feats do nothing to show him as beyond peak level.
How about we change to a type of feat where there are many comparable occurrences for both characters, that actually show durability. Things like taking hits from beings more powerful than them, being thrown through things, exposure to harmful/damaging substances/environments etc.
@muyjingo: I'll be honest, I can already tell where this is going. We're both going to end up agreeing to disagree. Good luck with your debate, I wish I had the time to finish what we started.
As it stands, in my opinion, you've failed to make your case. I've asked you repeatedly to explain, among other things, why you think the freefalling feats show him as enhanced, when it is perfectly in line with Marvel's definition of peak human.You haven't.
You simply haven't supported your case, short of insisting it to be true.
I understand you have time constraints and I respect your interpretation of the character. It isn't supported by facts/feats however, which is my point. Why is why it's an interpretation.
Maybe I'll run into you in the current battle thread. Likewise, good luck with your future debates.
As it stands, in my opinion, you've failed to make your case. I've asked you repeatedly to explain, among other things, why you think the freefalling feats show him as enhanced, when it is perfectly in line with Marvel's definition of peak human.You haven't.
You simply haven't supported your case, short of insisting it to be true.
I understand you have time constraints and I respect your interpretation of the character. It isn't supported by facts/feats however, which is my point. Why is why it's an interpretation.
Maybe I'll run into you in the current battle thread. Likewise, good luck with your future debates.
Thanks for the links.
In my opinion, you failed to make yours. *shrugs*
I honestly feel like it's a complete waste of time if we don't get other people in here to either vote or give their inputs. Be honest with me, no matter what I show you, my evidence in your eyes only proves what a Peak Human according to "marvel" standards should be able to do. We were never going to agree on anything. Look at those links, I've done this debate before and I have other threads that I couldn't find. Don't think I'm giving up, I'm really just tired of this debate. I haven't posted on this site for months but I got messaged by a friend to post in this thread and another thread. But I'm just tired, and this debate is repeating a exact similar pattern I had before with Dex_Starr in other threads. Although not as disrespectful as Dex_Starr was, I'm thankful for that.
Who are these people? Which one of them has written a Captain America series and why should I trust them over someone like Ed Brubaker, someone that wrote Captain America and Batman for the last decade and won Eisner awards for both?
"I agree with parts of a lot of people's comments here and elsewhere. But I think it's a bit funny to see people get so bent out of shape when a guy who's given something called the "Super Soldier Serum" turns out to be a bit more than the average human. He's been leaping out of the windows of eight story buildings and across city streets in NYC, dodging bullets, doing amazing feats of speed and strength, since I started reading the book in the early 70s.
My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can. If it was just about having an olympic-level athlete, do you really think all these groups and scientists would have been wasting 50 plus years trying to replicate the SSS?
All I've done is have him say out loud what's always been pretty clear to me as a fan of the character. He's always been a lot stronger and faster than the average well-trained athlete. And I've always hated the Batman comparisons. Batman trained himself, Cap got given a miracle serum. I'm not making that up or changing anything.
Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze. As for Cap running 60mph. In the comic, I think he says he can run a mile in a little over a minute when he HAS to. It's not even implied that he can keep that up all day. It's a full-on burst of speed, when he has to."
Ed Brubaker clearly states here what peak of man means when it applies to Captain America. It's the peak of human potential, our pinnacle, something that man cannot reach in this day and age unless if he was enhanced to the next level.
Marvel's random writers that don't really have credit for any comics VS A man that won Eisner awards writing comics. I'm going to believe Ed Brubaker.
@slimj87d: If you want to share Brubaker's opinion, that's absolutely fine. The point is though, it's still an opinion, an interpretation, not supported by feats. He even says it is just his opinion. It's certainly not an opinion shared by Marvel.
I'd also consider that sort of reasoning a fallacy, specifically an argument from authority.
Dear Lord...this argument is still ongoing? Cap is not a peak, ordinary human - he is enhanced, period. Feats have shown this, and actual comics supercede whatever the handbooks list.
@slimj87d: If you want to share Brubaker's opinion, that's absolutely fine. The point is though, it's still an opinion, an interpretation, not supported by feats. He even says it is just his opinion. It's certainly not an opinion shared by Marvel.
I'd also consider that sort of reasoning a fallacy, specifically an argument from authority.
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