#1 Posted by MuyJingo (1936 posts) - - Show Bio

I know this has been discussed before, but there still doesn't seem to be a satisfactory answer.

I'm much more of a DC guy than a Marvel guy, and most of what I know of Cap is from the movies, Civil War and AvX. A friend of mine who is very much into Marvel has always said that Captain America is not at all super human, he is just the very best a human can be. OK.

Then, in the Does Batman Always Win - Batman vs Captain America article, the author states that Cap is "Enhanced Human", and gives the physical advantage to Cap because of this. Enhanced is not the same as peak, it's something more. Yet, the Marvel Wikia database(each to their own but I find it very reliable) states that:

Rogers has no superhuman powers, although as a result of the Super-Soldier serum, he was transformed from a frail young man into a "perfect" specimen of human development and conditioning. Rogers is as intelligent, strong, fast, agile, and durable as it was possible for a human being to be without being considered superhuman.

This obviously isn't something that can be judged by feats, because many "Peak human" character do things no peak human could do in comics. I'd just like to work out, officially, what the stance is. I saw a quote from Ed Brubaker saying he considered Cap more than peak human, but I could never find a source for it.

Also, if Captain America is not "enhanced human" but just peak human, then that mean's he should not have gotten the advantage in the versus article, which would give the edge to Batman?

#2 Posted by End_Boss (738 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America regularly accomplishes feats far beyond the capability of any mortal man. To assert otherwise is covering your eyes to the facts, regardless of what any individual writer (even a noteworthy one) has to say on the matter.

#3 Posted by MuyJingo (1936 posts) - - Show Bio

@end_boss said:

Captain America regularly accomplishes feats far beyond the capability of any mortal man. To assert otherwise is covering your eyes to the facts, regardless of what any individual writer (even a noteworthy one) has to say on the matter.

So does Batman, so that doesn't mean much.

#4 Edited by End_Boss (738 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo: Cap does things that even Batman couldn't without the assistance of one of his gadgets. I love both characters, but Cap has the physical edge. And he's more than human.

EDIT: A closer approximation of Batman and Cap would be Damian Wayne's character (the one in my profile pic). Whatever deal that Batman made with whoever it actually was that gave him extreme regenerative capabilities put him on par with Cap (ability-wise... He'd probably need Bruce's experience to really be equal).

#5 Posted by MuyJingo (1936 posts) - - Show Bio

@end_boss said:

@muyjingo: Cap does things that even Batman couldn't without the assistance of one of his gadgets. I love both characters, but Cap has the physical edge. And he's more than human.

EDIT: A closer approximation of Batman and Cap would be Damian Wayne's character (the one in my profile pic). Whatever deal that Batman made with whoever it actually was that gave him extreme regenerative capabilities put him on par with Cap (ability-wise... He'd probably need Bruce's experience to really be equal).

I'm not debating that, just confused and looking for more info. Maybe some examples of feats.

If he is constantly described as peak human and not super human, that should make him on par with Batman. Batman pushed himself to the level that Cap is at, while Cap just got the serum...that was my understanding.

So if Cap is more than human...i.e. more than Batman (who is a great metric I think, because he is the best a human can be physically) than he isn't just peak human, but is in fact enhanced...or a low level superhuman........right?

#6 Posted by End_Boss (738 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo: Yes, exactly. He is a low level superhuman due to the serum, which is often discounted unfairly. Hell, it says it right on the tin: "super soldier serum." Not steroids, not high-yield vitamins. Super soldier serum. If you want a recent pop culture reference, look no further than his most recent film foray. Several action scenes in that movie are beyond the pale of human ability, including one leap toward the end that is almost comical.

#7 Posted by MuyJingo (1936 posts) - - Show Bio

@end_boss said:

@muyjingo: Yes, exactly. He is a low level superhuman due to the serum, which is often discounted unfairly. Hell, it says it right on the tin: "super soldier serum." Not steroids, not high-yield vitamins. Super soldier serum. If you want a recent pop culture reference, look no further than his most recent film foray. Several action scenes in that movie are beyond the pale of human ability, including one leap toward the end that is almost comical.

I think you're missing the point. As I said, Cap doing things normal humans can't do does not mean he is a super human, not at all.

The name super soldier serum just means it makes a super soldier, i.e. a soldier greater than the norm. It doesn't mean it makes a super human soldier.

Marvel defines him as peak human, so I remain confused.

#8 Edited by Dodobot (3 posts) - - Show Bio

Peak human is superhuman. While the phrase "peak human" makes it sound like becoming cap would only require dedication and a weight set, It's clearly not so.

I don't know if this will help or not but here goes. In a late 80's story Cap's serum bonded with a dangerous street drug. After a complete transfusion Cap was much weaker and slower. After having the serum restored t him he became superhuman again.

I think there is a tendency by writers to make cap seem like a bit of an everyman. He represents what is good about America in all of us. It could be seen that also making him too far from human might just seem tacky.

But he is.

#9 Posted by muhabba (301 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap in the regular Marvel U is peak human. The super-soldier serum was used to turn a small weakling into a peak human. I was not meant to be super human and has to maintain an intensive exercise program to maintain his performance. At certain times he's gained superhuman powers but was returned to only peak human. The super-soldier serum is bonded to his blood cells but the only thing historically defined by it is that it may be retarding his aging.

#10 Edited by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

Firstly, feats-wise, anybody called "peak human" or "peak olympian" or anything like that, is far beyond what a real world peak human is or could be. If Usain Bolt's average speed is ~23 MPH, that should give you an idea of what a "peak human" in real life can do for speed, you can figure out the same with weight lifting, Paul Anderson, ~402 lbs over head. A peak human in comic books, like Batman is capable of lifting more like 1,000 lbs. Its absurd, and in real world terms, "superhuman", but in comics, it qualifies as "peak human".

Cap is beyond even that. Remember how I brought up speed in the first paragraph? Cap has been confirmed on page running at 60 Mph. He threw a chunk of concrete through the air, maybe a good 50 ft up, Batman could not do that, if he did do it, it would be called bad writing. But, in comic books, Superhuman is still a class above what Cap is capable of, so he falls into a class that is somewhat unnecessary, called "Enhanced human". Im sure when im more focused I could make a list of folks who qualify for this class (Bane springs to mind, or Silver Age Kingpin, or Deathstroke, imo), but sufficed to say, in comics, "Enhanced Human" is greater than any human could be without mechanical or chemical assistance. Working out, even 24/7, can not make a normal person in the Marvel U Cap's equal. Its hard to say if somebody in the DC could reach his tier just working out, as they have a different set of rules, but I think it is safe to say they probably couldnt, and Batman definitely HAS NOT.

#11 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

This post was by SlimJ87D( as Steve is the peak of human "potential" or the next step in human evolution.

From the words of Ed Brubaker himself. The man who wrote Captain America for 8 years.

"I agree with parts of a lot of people's comments here and elsewhere. But I think it's a bit funny to see people get so bent out of shape when a guy who's given something called the "Super Soldier Serum" turns out to be a bit more than the average human. He's been leaping out of the windows of eight story buildings and across city streets in NYC, dodging bullets, doing amazing feats of speed and strength, since I started reading the book in the early 70s.

My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can. If it was just about having an olypic-level athlete, do you really think all these groups and scientists would have been wasting 50plus years trying to replicate the SSS?

All I've done is have him say outloud what's always been pretty clear to me as a fan of the character. He's always been a lot stronger and faster than the average well-trained athlete. And I've always hated the Batman comparisons. Batman trained himself, Cap got given a miracle serum. I'm not making that up or changing anything.

Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze. As for Cap running 60mph. In the comic, I think he says he can run a mile in a little over a minute when he HAS to. It's not even implied that he can keep that up all day. It's a full-on burst of speed, when he has to."

"Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze. As for Cap running 60mph."

Here, this is what Brubaker was talking about.

And finally this is Ed Brubakers writing here where he clearly puts it out there in his own dialogue, no artist is determining an obscure feat here. Cap is clearly running 5 miles in 5 minutes.

Again, what Ed Brubaker is saying is that Steve is not just the peak of man, but evolution wise he is the absolute peak of what a human can be physically in evolution. Whatever physical potential we have in evolution, he already is.

"My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can."

#12 Edited by Kal'smahboi (3572 posts) - - Show Bio

Saying that peak human and superhuman is the same sounds idiotic. They mean different things. Literally, one is highest human, whereas one is more than human. I was always under the impression that Captain America was made more than human, because he was given a "super-soldier serum."

Either way, he can't be peak human and superhuman at the same time.

#13 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

Sure just the isolated phrase peak human but not the peak of human potential or the next step in human evolution. They have clarified better on what Steve is.

#14 Posted by End_Boss (738 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo: In my very first reply to you I mentioned that regardless of what individual writers say, he is far beyond the capabilities of a normal human being today, even one that has trained extensively. I know what Brubaker has to say on the matter, but frankly his voice is not the be-all-end-all a lot of people seem to think it is. Yes, he wrote Cap for many years and was successful doing that, but it doesn't mean he has the last say on everything the character can and cannot do (heck, he didn't even create Cap!). As I said to you before, you can either examine what Cap is actually capable of in the comic books and make a decision based off of that, or you can close your eyes to it and parrot Brubaker's opinion. The fact of the matter remains that Cap is more than simply "highly trained," and his skill set comes from more than eating right and a tough physical regime.

#15 Posted by MuyJingo (1936 posts) - - Show Bio

From the words of Ed Brubaker himself. The man who wrote Captain America for 8 years.

There is a problem -- there is no source for that quote from Brubaker. Just people pasting it on a forum and saying it is from him.

Firstly, feats-wise, anybody called "peak human" or "peak olympian" or anything like that, is far beyond what a real world peak human is or could be. If Usain Bolt's average speed is ~23 MPH, that should give you an idea of what a "peak human" in real life can do for speed, you can figure out the same with weight lifting, Paul Anderson, ~402 lbs over head. A peak human in comic books, like Batman is capable of lifting more like 1,000 lbs. Its absurd, and in real world terms, "superhuman", but in comics, it qualifies as "peak human".

Thankyou, I like your answer the most so far. I will point out though that as per their respective wikia pages, Batman matches what Anderson and Bolt are capable of, while Cap exceeds them.

@end_boss said:

@muyjingo: In my very first reply to you I mentioned that regardless of what individual writers say, he is far beyond the capabilities of a normal human being today, even one that has trained extensively. I know what Brubaker has to say on the matter, but frankly his voice is not the be-all-end-all a lot of people seem to think it is. Yes, he wrote Cap for many years and was successful doing that, but it doesn't mean he has the last say on everything the character can and cannot do (heck, he didn't even create Cap!). As I said to you before, you can either examine what Cap is actually capable of in the comic books and make a decision based off of that, or you can close your eyes to it and parrot Brubaker's opinion. The fact of the matter remains that Cap is more than simply "highly trained," and his skill set comes from more than eating right and a tough physical regime.

In my first post in this thread, I state that judging it by feats is pointless. Humans who are just human have done things no human could do as well, so it doesn't prove anything. I'm just trying to figure out the official stance.

#16 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio
@muyjingo said:

@krauser99 said:

From the words of Ed Brubaker himself. The man who wrote Captain America for 8 years.

@muyjingo said:

There is a problem -- there is no source for that quote from Brubaker. Just people pasting it on a forum and saying it is from him.

.

Truth be told it will be very hard pressed to get that quote from him now, since most of his old posts have been pruned at CBR(comicbookresources). But when he was writing he was also posting there and this was no secret on the CBR Avengers forum and a little at alvaros that is how fans quoted him or his answers to his questions. I remember since I read them when he was there posting his replies.

#17 Posted by End_Boss (738 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo: If you're only interested in the official line, then Marvel has stated at multiple times that he is "peak human," which means absolutely nothing in a real sense but might mean something to you.

#18 Edited by w0nd (3921 posts) - - Show Bio

Seems to be a lot of debate going on here. I tried to compare him to batman because that came up in an older post and for the most part they seem to be the same. "Peak human" was a phrase you did not like because it was just a label, but the easiest thing to think of here is:

Normal humans get drunk, even people who are tanks that drink a lot will get drunk, he cannot get drunk or high.

And his body allowed him to stay alive frozen in a block of ice, not suspended animation created by science, but a block of ice. Those two things right there are signs of being beyond any normal man.

#19 Edited by End_Boss (738 posts) - - Show Bio

@w0nd: Thank you. I was trying to think of some examples that denote him as clearly more-than-human, but for some reason couldn't. It's like when someone asks you what you had for dinner last night. Any other time it'd be a cinch to remember, but when put on the spot becomes impossible. Anyway yeah, no human being, no matter how fit, no matter how conditioned, could survive without oxygen in a block of ice for years. And then there's the substance abuse stuff.

#20 Posted by w0nd (3921 posts) - - Show Bio

@end_boss: Yeah they are two minor things, but it's what does separate him from people who train to reach his strength levels.

#21 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

@w0nd said:

Seems to be a lot of debate going on here. I tried to compare him to batman because that came up in an older post and for the most part they seem to be the same. "Peak human" was a phrase you did not like because it was just a label, but the easiest thing to think of here is:

Normal humans get drunk, even people who are tanks that drink a lot will get drunk, he cannot get drunk or high.

And his body allowed him to stay alive frozen in a block of ice, not suspended animation created by science, but a block of ice. Those two things right there are signs of being beyond any normal man.

Other signs are like slowed aging, he may not even age at all. To fast healing like healing a bullet to the head in 12 minutes and burnt wounds in seconds.

#22 Edited by Alexander505 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

I think there is still much confusion about it. What says Ed Brubaker makes no sense. Or Steve is a superhuman or is a peak human. Steve can not be two things at once. Or Cap is like Batman (the feats in the comics of the two characters are the same things), or is officially a superhuman. The only certainty is this: Steve has been doped, Batman has trained to achieve the same results as physical and mental perfection as Steve.

The discourse about the Steve's speed, makes no sense. It is not true that Batman could not run as much as Steve, the truth is that no author in the comics has ever described (for now) the speed of Batman. It's simple.

#23 Edited by Alexander505 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

Thankyou, I like your answer the most so far. I will point out though that as per their respective wikia pages, Batman matches what Anderson and Bolt are capable of, while Cap exceeds them.

Absolutely wrong. Anderson could never train with 1000 lbs bench press. No man can do this. Bruce trains with more than 1000 lbs bare-chested with no help, and it does so as a workout routine. Can you understand the huge difference?

#24 Posted by SC (13299 posts) - - Show Bio

This involves definitions a lot and creative input and fan interpretation. Usually when you enhance something, you improve it. Enhancing doesn't mean betraying natural capabilities necessarily, like we all can enhance our strength by lifting weights. Usually I figure Captain America being referred to as an enhanced human, being a reference to how he was enhanced by the SSS. That doesn't necessarily mean he is superhuman. Peak likewise is different to potential. Peak implied a tip, potential is much more open ended. Some Marvel stories have human potentials as becoming Celestial like powers heh heh. Potential is a tricky word. Usually you also figure a big reason why Marvel likes to sell Captain America as a peak human is because as per his gimmick, he is a patriot who just really wants to protect his country, and a combination of hard work, mental strength, personal drive, fortitude, spirit, morals, and so on can transform a normal man into something a bit more. The more physical power/strength you give Captain America potentially the more you undermine what Marvel tries to sell him as, and undermine all that character stuff. Writer Brubaker makes interesting points, but I feel he drew odd parallels with the Olympic athlete examples. A person who is an olympic level athlete, is going to be very different from a person who can compete with a gold medalist or win a gold medal in every Olympic category. Very different. Then again is such a person who can do that? Are they peak human or superhuman? Power lifter bodies look different to gymnast bodies look different to long distance runners bodies. You can add more layers by asking if the more time Cap spends working out/training does the peak get higher? Really ultimately its up to Marvel and then whatever they want they can modify the definition of words to fit since they have a certain level of ambiguity there.

Moderator
#25 Edited by Alexander505 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil is more like Batman, physically

Wrong again. Devil has NEVER been presented as a peak human. Batman yes. Ergo, Devil is not like Batman.

#26 Posted by Alexander505 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc said:

This involves definitions a lot and creative input and fan interpretation. Usually when you enhance something, you improve it. Enhancing doesn't mean betraying natural capabilities necessarily, like we all can enhance our strength by lifting weights. Usually I figure Captain America being referred to as an enhanced human, being a reference to how he was enhanced by the SSS. That doesn't necessarily mean he is superhuman. Peak likewise is different to potential. Peak implied a tip, potential is much more open ended. Some Marvel stories have human potentials as becoming Celestial like powers heh heh. Potential is a tricky word. Usually you also figure a big reason why Marvel likes to sell Captain America as a peak human is because as per his gimmick, he is a patriot who just really wants to protect his country, and a combination of hard work, mental strength, personal drive, fortitude, spirit, morals, and so on can transform a normal man into something a bit more. The more physical power/strength you give Captain America potentially the more you undermine what Marvel tries to sell him as, and undermine all that character stuff. Writer Brubaker makes interesting points, but I feel he drew odd parallels with the Olympic athlete examples. A person who is an olympic level athlete, is going to be very different from a person who can compete with a gold medalist or win a gold medal in every Olympic category. Very different. Then again is such a person who can do that? Are they peak human or superhuman? Power lifter bodies look different to gymnast bodies look different to long distance runners bodies. You can add more layers by asking if the more time Cap spends working out/training does the peak get higher? Really ultimately its up to Marvel and then whatever they want they can modify the definition of words to fit since they have a certain level of ambiguity there.

I agree, but the definition of peak human can not be left to interpretation, because to say "peak" is a word that describes a maximum level where, above that level, there is nothing, because you have already reached perfection.

Perfection The quality or state of being perfect or complete, so that nothing requisite is wanting; entire development; consummate culture, skill, or moral excellence; the highest attainable state or degree of excellence; maturity; as, perfectionin an art, in a science, or in a system; perfection in form or degree; fruits in perfection.

http://www.finedictionary.com/perfection.html

#27 Posted by SC (13299 posts) - - Show Bio

@alexander505 said:

Perfection The quality or state of being perfect or complete, so that nothing requisite is wanting; entire development; consummate culture, skill, or moral excellence; the highest attainable state or degree of excellence; maturity; as, perfectionin an art, in a science, or in a system; perfection in form or degree; fruits in perfection.

http://www.finedictionary.com/perfection.html

It can be left to interpretation because Marvel will/can commit to using the word peak, but not (probably not with any consistency) to committing what peak or even human is objectively. In reality where you can actually have consistent truths such things are hard to pin down in an objective sense, hence why in the land of fiction even more leeway can be had.

Not only that but peak is a concept that changes based on application or addition of over contexts/concepts thats how you get more room for interpretation. So unless Marvel actually gives objective terms to what is "perfect" and so on, you can have interpretation. I mean I don't have to break down all the words used to define the word in your copy and past do I? You can do that yourself, so I am afraid I am not sure what your point is sorry?

Moderator
#28 Edited by Alexander505 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, it's a term that is left open to interpretation, but you will agree with me in saying that it is wrong to consider Cap superhuman. Cap, quite simply, is a character who has been the protagonist, thanks to the authors, of continuous feats in the comics, very special, that has left thinking at many fans, that Steve was actually above than a peak human...but he's not.

#29 Edited by SC (13299 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh absolutely agree. In fiction the writers are basically the word of god, in fact thats what they are commonly referred to in all fiction. A few may disagree with each other in comics, but the official line from Marvel tends to be that Cap isn't superhuman, but peak human, so a human whose spirit, drive, fortitude makes him seem superhuman, but only seem, heh heh heh.

Moderator
#30 Posted by Kyzuko (120 posts) - - Show Bio

Brubaker basically said he's enhanced human as he's at a stage where humans now cannot reach. Cap's also just a step below superhuman so he's gotta be enhanced human.

#31 Edited by Alexander505 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

Brubaker said just his opinion, also wrong, inter alia, because he put Devil at the same level of Batman, but it is wrong. For example, Batman has shown it to have physical strength and endurance/stamina of a peak human. Devil didn't. Devil has been shown to be a peak human in agility, but not in strength and / or endurance / stamina.

#32 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually Daredevil has shown peak strength. Marvel stance for peak is just lifting twice your own body weight and above. Not something magical. Daredevil has lifted limos and bent jail bars and Cap is superior to him because he is the "highest" peak. The next step in in human genetics. Steve is a walking breathing sci fi.

#33 Edited by Alexander505 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't exist nothing like "highest" peak. Devil isn't just a peak human and still remains under Batman and Cap. That's all.

#34 Posted by Kyzuko (120 posts) - - Show Bio

DC has a different take on peak human which is why Steve barely has an advantage over Bruce in physicals.

#35 Edited by Alexander505 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

There is not difference, this is just the opinion of the fans. Anybody in the DC or in the Marvel has never explained what they exactly mean with "peak human".

However, for peak human means a level of physical perfection. Everyone knows that perfection is a maximum level, there is nothing above the perfection, otherwise it would make no sense, and you should change the definition of the word "perfection" or "peak" in the dictionaries. Above the peak human, there is only the real superhuman. Below the peak human, there are Olympic athletes.

#36 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

@alexander505 said:

Don't exist nothing like "highest" peak. Devil isn't just a peak human and still remains under Batman and Cap. That's all.

Not true. Devil feats in are about as humanly good as it gets. Batman and DD remain under Cap. That's all. Even if Bat's peak strength is higher then DD peak strength,(which this I would not mind) since DD peak speed and peak reflexes are a bit better). Bru point remains the "same" as DD/Bruce are more comparable closer in stats then Batman is to Cap.

Even Crossbone in the hand books has been termed Peak Human in strength and yet Steve stated that with the SSS he is stronger then Bones. Steve strength has even been termed Preternatural which means beyond man.

#37 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

There is not difference, this is just the opinion of the fans. Anybody in the DC or in the Marvel has never explained what they exactly mean with "peak human".

However, for peak human means a level of physical perfection. Everyone knows that perfection is a maximum level, there is nothing above the perfection, otherwise it would make no sense, and you should change the definition of the word "perfection" or "peak" in the dictionaries. Above the peak human, there is only the real superhuman. Below the peak human, there are Olympic athletes.

Marvel has explained it. Cap adventures arch. It was stated Cap is the "next step in human evolution." Brubaker did not come up with this idea but another writer did. Bru just endorsed it as, it was also Mark Gruenwald who stated Steve is the peak of human "potential". Batman is not this......nor DD. Cap is the anomaly that live in both worlds as completely human but is super at the same time.

#38 Edited by Alexander505 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

Peak Human...Stop...everything else, just opinions...

#39 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

Saying that it is just "peak human" is opinion and more for hand books. Stop as Steve is a Super Soldier.....as he was given a Super Soldier Serum. Peak of human potential.

#40 Edited by MuyJingo (1936 posts) - - Show Bio

Saying that it is just "peak human" is opinion and more for hand books. Stop as Steve is a Super Soldier.....as he was given a Super Soldier Serum. Peak of human potential.

All official sources list him as peak human.

#41 Edited by Alexander505 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@krauser99 said:

Saying that it is just "peak human" is opinion and more for hand books. Stop as Steve is a Super Soldier.....as he was given a Super Soldier Serum. Peak of human potential.

All official sources list him as peak human.

Because Cap is a peak human. Stop.

#42 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@krauser99 said:

Saying that it is just "peak human" is opinion and more for hand books. Stop as Steve is a Super Soldier.....as he was given a Super Soldier Serum. Peak of human potential.

All official sources list him as peak human.

All Official continuity stories(which hand books are lesser then) reference him at and as other labels. You have to put it all together to figure it out. Point is Steve Peak Human=Batman Peak human..........nope. Batman is more peak human physical condition while Steve is the ultimate in human "ability". Hence why he ages super slow, why heals faster, why he is called the "Perfect" man at times. Hand books don't trump multiple canon sources verifying the same thing.

#43 Edited by tupiaz (2240 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@end_boss said:

@muyjingo: Cap does things that even Batman couldn't without the assistance of one of his gadgets. I love both characters, but Cap has the physical edge. And he's more than human.

EDIT: A closer approximation of Batman and Cap would be Damian Wayne's character (the one in my profile pic). Whatever deal that Batman made with whoever it actually was that gave him extreme regenerative capabilities put him on par with Cap (ability-wise... He'd probably need Bruce's experience to really be equal).

I'm not debating that, just confused and looking for more info. Maybe some examples of feats.

If he is constantly described as peak human and not super human, that should make him on par with Batman. Batman pushed himself to the level that Cap is at, while Cap just got the serum...that was my understanding.

So if Cap is more than human...i.e. more than Batman (who is a great metric I think, because he is the best a human can be physically) than he isn't just peak human, but is in fact enhanced...or a low level superhuman........right?

How can Batman be peak human he is just a Human. the only time I have seen Batman as peak human is in Venom. It doesn't make sense that Batman can train him self to be peak human that would also take the facination from Batman. The premiss Batman is build on is that everybody can be Batman and you don't need to have superpowers to be a hero.

#44 Posted by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

@tupiaz said:

@muyjingo said:

@end_boss said:

@muyjingo: Cap does things that even Batman couldn't without the assistance of one of his gadgets. I love both characters, but Cap has the physical edge. And he's more than human.

EDIT: A closer approximation of Batman and Cap would be Damian Wayne's character (the one in my profile pic). Whatever deal that Batman made with whoever it actually was that gave him extreme regenerative capabilities put him on par with Cap (ability-wise... He'd probably need Bruce's experience to really be equal).

I'm not debating that, just confused and looking for more info. Maybe some examples of feats.

If he is constantly described as peak human and not super human, that should make him on par with Batman. Batman pushed himself to the level that Cap is at, while Cap just got the serum...that was my understanding.

So if Cap is more than human...i.e. more than Batman (who is a great metric I think, because he is the best a human can be physically) than he isn't just peak human, but is in fact enhanced...or a low level superhuman........right?

How can Batman be peak human he is just a Human. the only time I have seen Batman as peak human is in Venom. It doesn't make sense that Batman can train him self to be peak human that would also take the fascination from Batman. The premiss Batman is build on is that everybody can be Batman and you don't need to have superpowers to be a hero.

Batman is more a peak human in the sense of his peak physical condition. Matt Murdock himself is peak human in speed/reflex/agility and he himself has stated Steve is much faster then him despite being peak in his own right. They are the regular peaks while Steve is the exception to the rule and is uniquely to himself as he is the only true Peak human potential in the marvel verse at the very top of it.

Saying just stop at peak human is as illogical as saying stop he is Captain America, without telling Captain America story.

#45 Posted by MuyJingo (1936 posts) - - Show Bio

All Official continuity stories(which hand books are lesser then) reference him at and as other labels. You have to put it all together to figure it out. Point is Steve Peak Human=Batman Peak human..........nope. Batman is more peak human physical condition while Steve is the ultimate in human "ability". Hence why he ages super slow, why heals faster, why he is called the "Perfect" man at times. Hand books don't trump multiple canon sources verifying the same thing.

What are you basing this on? The quote from Brubaker?

@tupiaz said:

How can Batman be peak human he is just a Human. the only time I have seen Batman as peak human is in Venom. It doesn't make sense that Batman can train him self to be peak human that would also take the facination from Batman. The premiss Batman is build on is that everybody can be Batman and you don't need to have superpowers to be a hero.

Think about what peak human means? Hint, Batman on Venom is more than peak human...

#46 Edited by tupiaz (2240 posts) - - Show Bio

@krauser99 @muyjingo:: Well I see peak human as you have peak the human strength/ability/Whatever and not just the average human strength. I think that "being at the human peak" is a more accurate formulation?

#47 Posted by MuyJingo (1936 posts) - - Show Bio

@tupiaz: Peak human means at the highest level of what humans are capable of today. It doesn't mean what humanity is capable of in the future.

#48 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@tupiaz: Peak human means at the highest level of what humans are capable of today. It doesn't mean what humanity is capable of in the future.

That is incorrect for Steve since he's been called "Preternatural" or "The next step in human evolution or "Perfect Man". And my favorite from the writer Mark Gruenwald himself the peak of human "POTENTIAL".

#49 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@krauser99 said:

All Official continuity stories(which hand books are lesser then) reference him at and as other labels. You have to put it all together to figure it out. Point is Steve Peak Human=Batman Peak human..........nope. Batman is more peak human physical condition while Steve is the ultimate in human "ability". Hence why he ages super slow, why heals faster, why he is called the "Perfect" man at times. Hand books don't trump multiple canon sources verifying the same thing.

What are you basing this on? The quote from Brubaker?

Nope other stories. Mark Gruenwald, Roger Stern, etc etc. Also for those that love hand books or bios. Some bio's even list Steve as "Enhanced Human"

Can Batman heal a bullet to the head in 12 minutes? Can Bruce heal burn wounds in seconds? Is Bruce immune to alcohol poisoning.

Can Batman age super duper slow? Don't tell me you believe it was Brubaker that coined the phrase peak of human "potential" or the next step in human evolution. It was other writers.......Bru simply used Steve's past stories.

#50 Posted by tupiaz (2240 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@tupiaz: Peak human means at the highest level of what humans are capable of today. It doesn't mean what humanity is capable of in the future.

That was not my point. IMO peak human indicates that you is above the limits of the human race where at the peak human x (for instance strengths) indicates you are at the limits but you have not gone above it.