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#101 Edited by Twix_Right_Side (2321 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982 said:

@muyjingo said:

@tg1982 was one of the few cap fans in these parts able to have a civilized debate. How I wish he were here.

Here I am... and for the record, I'm actually kind of embarrassed to be a Cap fan right now...One guy (@muyjingo) has a different, and debatable, if not valid, opinion. And he gets ganged up on and bullied? It's kind of pathetic...I've debated with muyjingo on this topic at length and in depth, and not ONCE has a mod needed to come in here and tell us to calm down. Yet it happened here. I hope that you guys (some of which are my friends) can just take a step back and calm down, then be civil towards each other.

Was there something that I said that was offensive? And gang up on him? Seriously?

And yes,he has a different opinion (which is fine). Personally,I don't agree with his opinion. That's fine,too (or at least,I hope it is). The point is that I read his responses,read his blog,etc and then see if I agree/disagree with his argument and why. I've already stated that I disagree with his argument,and why that is the case with each one.Personally,I don't find his argument to be one (at least,the ones about Cap,not the ones that are exclusively about Batman) supported by the facts,that's my prerogative....Am I not allowed to disagree,now? Or was this part not directed at me?

Was there something uncivilized that I did? Am I not allowed to disagree with someone now?

@krauser99 said:
The only silly idea in this thread is saying that Batman is a true Superhuman which is irrational that poster mujingo likes to post and even sillier saying his strength and durability is equal to Captain America.

See, this is what I'm talking about. No where did muyjingo say Batman was super human. So that's wrong, and then you insult him by calling him irrational? The irony is that your tag team buddy is the one trying to make a claim of Batman being superhuman...

Tag team buddy? Yes,you've figured us out. We are secretly in cohoots,and you've figured out our sinister tactic of "tag teaming" up on him.

Sarcasm aside,I said that it's arguable that he can be called a borderline superhuman (or below) because of his feats. It isn't a far-fetched or baseless claim. I'm starting to think that you didn't read my responses,or that you're misinterpreting them by taking them out of context.

@twix_right_side said:

However,it can be said that,by feats,that Batman is a borderline superhuman or directly underneath the mark. By FEATS. On paper,he's definitely a peak human,and I don't think that that's changing anytime soon. But it isn't too far fetched to say that he's borderline,or at least,directly below the mark....like DIRECTLY below (because it can be argued). :)

Are you people so insecure that they can't handle someone with a disagreeing opinion? I'm mean for crying out loud, does it REALLY matter if a poster, whom you don't really know, thinks that Cap isn't superhuman? Will it mean the end of the world? This is why I hardly ever come on here any more...

How did you get "insecure" and that I couldn't handle a different opinion from that? I just stated that,if anyone would say that Batman is borderline superhuman,that it is a point that can be argued by his feats. I don't know WHERE you got the rest of that from,but quite frankly it's just ridiculous and almost insulting...And who cares if I don't know him? What relevance does that have? Does that mean that I cannot talk to anyone on the vine because I don't know them personally?

And by the way,this is an open forum. Discussing comic books and the things that happen in them are what the forums are FOR. You act as if I slit my wrists just because he believes something different. I thought the initial point was to try to change the opinions of the other,if possible? And if not,then to each his/her own?

@muyjingo if you want to hang out and talk you'll find me at another forum...if you want, let me know. I'll PM it to you, (I think it would be rude to post it on another comic forum).

Also, I think the comic in which the scan for Cap throwing the rock at snipers...is from Captain America: The Chosen and I'm pretty sure it's non-cannon, I might be wrong, but since at the end of it Cap dies by getting stabbed in the eye with a screw driver, by a terrorist.

There now my rant is done.

One last thing, if anyone is curious, my belief is that I think that Cap is in fact Peak of Human Potential, meaning no other human can be physically better than him (and still be human), but there are many that could be, and are, in his range/class, Batman being one of them.

That is also a valid point (last sentence). I personally hold the exact same sentiments. By current standards,though,he would be called superhuman in my opinion.

#102 Edited by Twix_Right_Side (2321 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982: I'm aware,but are people not allowed to discuss these comic books and the things in them? Or do we just say that "it's fiction" and that that means that we cannot have a debate about them. If that's the case,then the entire forum section of Comicvine (besides off-topic *shudders*) is pointless. Basically,all I'm saying is,is that I disagree. That's basically it. My reasons are in my responses for why I disagree with him. I think that I have at least that right.

And no offense was taken.

#103 Edited by War Killer (20251 posts) - - Show Bio

I think he is. He's called a SUPER-Soldier for a reason after all. If he were simply peak-human than he'd just be a "kinda-better soldier." :P

#104 Edited by tg1982 (2715 posts) - - Show Bio

And yes,he has a different opinion (which is fine). Personally,I don't agree with his opinion. That's fine,too (or at least,I hope it is). The point is that I read his responses,read his blog,etc and then see if I agree/disagree with his argument and why. I've already stated that I disagree with his argument,and why that is the case with each one.Personally,I don't find his argument to be one (at least,the ones about Cap,not the ones that are exclusively about Batman) supported by the facts,that's my prerogative....Am I not allowed to disagree,now? Or was this part not directed at me?

Was there something uncivilized that I did? Am I not allowed to disagree with someone now?

Disagreeing is perfectly fine. I have no problem with disagreeing. It's HOW you disagree, when the first paragraph of your first post in this thread is this...

Don't waste your time.

Clearly he doesn't know about 616 Cap. It's hilarious how he thinks Movie Cap is stronger than 616 Cap. I hope he isn't one of the Batfans that try to say that Cap and Bats are equals physically,while trying desperately to undermine/lowball Cap's feats....probably while overrating Batman's with tenuous links on both accounts.

This is hardly just "disagreeing". You tell people to not waste their time, and then make an assumption about someone, and then say their opinion (which is valid) is hilarious. Then more assumptions. Which, if it was directed at me, I would think it's offensive, if I'm to be honest, at the very least baiting. You then follow up with your second post...

Please,I am waiting......Actually,no,I'm not. I don't have time for this.I've come across too many people like this on other forums. You're probably just going to be stubborn,and stick to your ignorant opinion...which is probably just Batbias combined with wishful thinking.

So again you make assumptions, insult his opinion calling it ignorant and call him bias. Again if directed towards me I would think it's offensive. Again @muyjingo and I have had this same debate and we have differing opinions on it and the mods never had to come in and warn us. Why did they on here? You have a differing opinion? Then say so without insults. And please understand this is not ONLY directed at you, but also krauser99.

Tag team buddy? Yes,you've figured us out. We are secretly in cohoots,and you've figured out our sinister tactic of "tag teaming" up on him.

Sarcasm aside,I said that it's arguable that he can be called a borderline superhuman (or below) because of his feats. It isn't a far-fetched or baseless claim. I'm starting to think that you didn't read my responses,or that you're misinterpreting them by taking them out of context.

The "tag team buddy" really wasn't directed at you, my point about that was krauser99 called @muyjingo irrational because he thought Batman was superhuman, and he never said that, that it was you. So basically he insulted him for nothing. As for Batman being superhuman, or near, or whatever, I didn't take it out of context, I know what you were saying, I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing about that. I don't know enough about him to say one way or the other, and honestly I don't care if he is or isn't.

@tg1982 said:

How did you get "insecure" and that I couldn't handle a different opinion from that? I just stated that,if anyone would say that Batman is borderline superhuman,that it is a point that can be argued by his feats. I don't know WHERE you got the rest of that from,but quite frankly it's just ridiculous and almost insulting...And who cares if I don't know him? What relevance does that have? Does that mean that I cannot talk to anyone on the vine because I don't know them personally?

I didn't "get" insecure, I was asking. Again I don't care about Batman being superhuman, or not, or whatever. The text about you talking about Batman was simply to show people, mainly krause99, that you said it not muyjingo. I apologize for the confusion, if you thought that Batman post was what I was referring to. As far as not knowing someone, I meant people insulting others, not talking or debating.

And by the way,this is an open forum. Discussing comic books and the things that happen in them are what the forums are FOR.

I agree. The forum is for discussing, I never said otherwise. It's NOT for insulting people (again not directed solely at you but everyone involved).

@tg1982 said:

You act as if I slit my wrists just because he believes something different. I thought the initial point was to try to change the opinions of the other,if possible? And if not,then to each his/her own?

I would say the point is to have fun, but it's just my opinion. If you truly believe that the point is to try to change the others opinions, then that's fine, but do you think that insults are really conducive to that? If anything it'll just help cement them in their positions.

You, of course, are free to reply, but I'm not interested in this debate, so I'm probably done here. One more thing, just to be sure, my initial post was directed at everyone not just you, so please don't think I'm singling you out.

#105 Posted by Edouoble (10 posts) - - Show Bio

According to the Marvel wiki, you have superhuman strength if you can lift 800lbs. Cap can lift a max of 1200 lbs. Basically, for Cap, he's CONSIDERED to have superhuman strength, just not officially classified with it. Amazingly, he can flip the Hulk as if it were nothing. I didn't know he actually beat him through combat though

#106 Posted by flameboy298 (1908 posts) - - Show Bio

@edouoble: and not to mention he tosses baddies around like their twigs.People make it seem like Cap and Batman are equals,but I dont see Batman kicking people around and they go flying in the air.

#107 Posted by Edouoble (10 posts) - - Show Bio

@flameboy298: True. Batman is the epitome of peak human perfection through training for years on end in several different fields. Cap is pretty much lucky because he was injected with a super-steroid that saved him the time and effort to become peak human. Plus, it is called Super Soldier Serum. Not rocket science

#108 Edited by Twix_Right_Side (2321 posts) - - Show Bio

@edouoble said:

@flameboy298: True. Batman is the epitome of peak human perfection through training for years on end in several different fields. Cap is pretty much lucky because he was injected with a super-steroid that saved him the time and effort to become peak human. Plus, it is called Super Soldier Serum. Not rocket science

Correct. However,the wording for Cap's seems a bit off. It makes it seem like Batman went through hell on earth just to achieve his training,whereas Cap just got lucky. It wasn't anywhere near as simple as that. The process for becoming a super soldier is dangerous,and multiple people have become f*cking insane because of it (lol,although some were for different reasons).

Not only that,but Cap also had to train rigorously before he became Cap. Imagine what a disadvantage he was at due to his physical condition! But all of Batman's training wouldn't be remotely possible since he grew up in money. I mean,his family was the wealthiest and most well loved family in Gotham. It wouldn't be financially possible to travel the world training with the world's finest if he didn't have the abundance in wealth he had. Whereas Cap grew up during the worst depression in the country as Irish Immigrants (I believe they were Irish,so imagine the social strife that they had to experience) and went through hell just to survive,and his father was an abusive douche. Basically,Batman grew up with privilege,Cap didn't.

So it wasn't exactly: one guy trained super hard,the other got off easy.

And besides,the marvel wiki is bull. They might list the wrecking crew as,what,10-40 tons? That's just bull.

#109 Edited by SlimJ87D (10059 posts) - - Show Bio

@twix_right_side: yes that is true. There is a scan where Steve is fist fighting another soldier 3 times his size during the sss training.

People think he just took the formula right away, but he trained for months till he was the last man standing.

Then he trained a lot more after that of course.

#110 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

Now for the nonsensical statement that muj stated that "Movie" Cap is far..far stronger then 616 Cap.

Remember in the Cap:Winter Soldier movie. The guys got one of Steve's arm trapped with a strong magnet on the elevator. Movie Cap literally had to jump and press his two feat on the elevator wall just to have leverage to break free from the magnetic grip on the wall(the first one didn't really connect with the wall). It was pretty impressive for sure. But Muj stated these types of feats are superior to 616 Cap in strength. And yet here 616 Cap has a better feat. Ironman's super magnet was so powerful that it literally brought Steve from the ground and pulled him up into the air so it is a safe bet to assume that his magnet was more powerful then the one in the movie. Once Steve got pissed off his power punch(no shield) broke free from the pull and sent Ironman crashing down as he makes a crater.

#111 Posted by Bezza (3679 posts) - - Show Bio

@edouoble: and not to mention he tosses baddies around like their twigs.People make it seem like Cap and Batman are equals,but I dont see Batman kicking people around and they go flying in the air.

I agree...Cap is clearly stronger, faster, more powerful than Batman...he is also very skilled at fighting and didn't just get a serum, man In the Winter Soldier Movie he was like Jason Bourne on steroids!!

#112 Posted by Butros (69 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that Steve while not superhuman he's more than able to perform super human feats.

I try to explain,what i mean is...take a martial artist already able to break concrete,now give him at the same time speed,reflexes,raw strenght,body toughness etc as much as really possible for a human(real peak for human race so well over gold medalist) and maybe you'll get someone able to punch through walls.

#113 Edited by MuyJingo (1778 posts) - - Show Bio

This will probably be my last reply in this thread...unless I can't refuse the bait or someone makes an interesting/valid argument.

@twix_right_side

So, let me reply to the last post I didn't reply to, then everyone else.

More bullet points.

  1. So what's your point here? That I was being petty? Yes, you caught me. I can only be civil for so long when confronted with constant childishness.
  2. Actually, that's exactly what you implied. I can quote the relevant section if you doubt it. You were saying you and the people who agree with you hold the opinion most cap fans share, which simply isn't true (in terms of him being greater than ultimate cap).
  3. You've seen me in countless threads before you joined, not supporting my argument? I always do my best, if I don't have a scan I will detail my reasoning. I think you're either made this up or dismissed what I was saying. Can you find one thread where I am not supporting my argument? A link to such a thread would be great, as I doubt it exists. My stance on the "seeing faster feat" is not based on assumption at all, just cautious in terpretation. It's the cap fans who are convinced it means he sees in bullet time, which is nothing but assumption.
  4. Well that's what you've said for every scan I've ever uploaded. Just wanted to point out again how it's nonsense that you say I'm not supporting my argument.
  5. ok.
  6. -
  7. So you are saying everyone has different interpretation and because it is all interpreted every interpretation is equally valid? Sorry, but no. And I agree, they conveyed what they needed to in the panel, which is not that Steve see's in bullet time.
  8. He didn't say he sees bullets. He said he sees faster.
  9. -
  10. So if you know how it works then you know it's reliable, so why did you try and dismiss it?
  11. Folk such as slim and krauser tend to highball cap feats (many which are PIS) while lowballing or dismissing batman's feats. I do think a single instance of cap doing something above his power level is PIS. That's kind of the definition.
  12. Why are you talking about CV rules? It has nothing to do with that. I'm just saying 5 is a suggestion for feats to be consistant before they are not PIS. Nothing to do with CV rules, relax.
  13. Your experience is limited if you think that comic book fandom is not divided on this issue, yes. Threads on Cap being superhuman or not go into the thousands, because it is debated equally by both sides. So yes, glad you agree that it was limited.
  14. -
  15. I'm not getting sidetracked into proving that. Not when one of your buddies slimj89 already made a great post explaining why ultimate cap is superior. I couldn't do a better job myself as I don't know the character as well.
  16. As above.

The point of a debate is to look at things from an objective standpoint to make a conclusion based off of the facts presented. Clearly,that is not happening,especially when one's mind is already made up.

Exactly. When you ignore evidence and don't bother to investigate it shows a strong bias and a lack of interest in trying to come to establish any sort of objective truth.

For the record,it seems that you actually do make comments like this and try to pass them off as "PIS" or dismiss them in some way,shape,or form.So excuse me if I was cynical,and remain so.

No, I don't, and I would appreciate it if you stop accusing me of acting like this. I consider a feat PIS if it has only been shown once or twice over a great span of time (like Cap's running feat). If it is consistantly shown, i.e. once every two years or so, then it clearly isn't PIS.

And by the way,I've already seen your "evidence", and this entire thread,and in the other,they seem to continue to follow this trend. I think I've seen what I've needed to.

See, this is funny, because you have yet to actually attack a single point of my argument or make a single argument yourself. Nothing but ad hominems. "You're this type of person" and "I've seen what I needed to" etc etc. I've made a strong case, you may not agree with it but attack my argument, not me. You've yet to do that.

Don't try to tell me that I'm not interested in "looking at any evidence that may challenge my opinion",that is a completely baseless and weak assertion.

You've been reading for years apparently. So why not make an argument based on one of my posts where I supply evidence and make an argument, because you've given absolutely no evidence that you even acknowledge my argument as valid. Not that you disagree and have a reason for doing so, but that you don't even bother acknowledging the argument I'm making.

And honestly,it doesn't matter. I doubt that anything I say will get accepted or won't be dismissed,so me not saying anything will have the same effect.

Can you show me where I have dismissed anything you've said?

And I cannot say that your reasoning or the arguments presented are supported by the scans, and seems to be backed by speculative information.

Yet again you don't make any specific argument, just dismissing my entire argument. What is the speculative information? Which argument in particular is not supported by a corresponding scan?

And to be completely honest,I have seen you do that very exact same thing to Captain America (dismissing them as "exaggerated" or "PIS" or any of the other ways you dismissed them) in this thread and multiple others in your arguments,while doing the inverse for Batman. It's a bit ironic in my opinion.

It's certainly not ironic, even if you were correct. So you're saying I dismiss Cap feats as PIS while I don't acknowledge Batman feats as PIS? All the feats may well be PIS, but that doesn't change anything as far as them having equal feats and so therefore drawing the conclusion that they are equal.

the second one isn't canon because of DC's reboot.....unfortunately,but that is another thorn in my side

For the purposes of this argument, that's irrelevant.

Batman is one of the strongest peak humans in comics in my opinion,but he isn't on Cap's level in mine.

So elaborate on why.

@krauser99 said:

I'm glad the majority of people are viewing Cap in the correct manner. He is a super human like Deathstroke. Accept his feats in strength are much better then Slade.

The only silly idea in this thread is saying that Batman is a true Superhuman which is irrational that poster mujingo likes to post and even sillier saying his strength and durability is equal to Captain America.

Easy troll. I never claimed Batman was superhuman and the majority of cap vans do not agree with you.

@slimj87d

Always the same old feats. They have been debunked numerous times yet you still don't listen and just blindly repost, like people who endlessly quote the bible even when it's been explained to such a fanatic why they are wrong.

Cap falling from a height and crushing a car isn't a feat showing him to be superhuman, it is barely a durability feat. A heavy wait falling from a large height will crush a car. That's just basic physics, even Punisher was shown to crush a car.

2. Been shown to take and survive an explosion like Cap has. Batman has walked out of a explosion but we never saw the context behind what happened, we've seen cap actually take an explosion that destroyed and blew apart trees.

This is a classic example of you over estimating a Cap feat and finding a way to dismiss a batman feat, much as creationists keep finding ways to dismiss evolution. Both characters have survived explosions numerous times, Batman without the benefit of a shield.

3. Batman has never thrown and pitched objects hard enough to destroy and slice vehicles in http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3220577-avx-zone_007.jpghalf. Cap has. He's destroyed tanks, cars, helicopters, etc. His shield weighs 12 lbs. Cap has also thrown a 150+ piece of concrete through a 2 story building destroying it and also sending 2 160+ pound men through it.

Yes, Batman has never done that because Vibranium does not exist in that DCU and Batman does not carry a shield. He has though performed equally impressive strength feats, like hurling around a 600 pound manbat or supporting 1200 pounds at once, pulling open a locked car trunk under water and hanging on inside a jet engine. All more impressive than the cap feats you just mentioned.

Batman has never leaped 2 stories high like Captain America has nor has he propelled himself using gymnastics 20 stories high or a front flip with a 100 lb piece of ice on his legs

Yeah, Cap can't jump 2 stories high. It's been shown once, it's not consistent, it's PIS. What's m ore PIS is the 20 story high feat, which is very much highballing. Even so, what's the point of posting feats for which there is no direct equivalent?

It's like me saying Cap never survived 24 seconds in space without a suit while Batman has. What does that prove exactly?

Ran at 60 MPH while holding 160 lbs of weight in his arms and back (Shield and Bucky).

He runs at 3pmph. That was either due to PIS or because it was a tribute to the silver age. No matter what you say 2 showings of him running over 30mph 40 years apart is not consistent.

Ripped a large chunk of his chest out and then hours later survived a fall of 100s of feet onto the ground after fighting Jet and Zola.

This is pretty much the same as Batman being stabbed with a shovel in the chest and continuing to fight without the help of any mystical lazarus pit.

His shield card states he's enhanced:

His Marvel universe handbook entries consistently states him as peak.

I've explained all this to Slim before but he is incapable of considering the evidence. He is essentially religious in his opinions of Cap, which means he is irrational.

Feel free to read through the thread Slim mentioned and see his desperate attempts to defend the 10 or so PIS feats to try and argue Cap is superhuman. One of them is a figure of speech, which is still hilarious.

We also have no source for Brubaker saying Steve is enhanced (not that it matters)

@twix_right_side said:

You've presented your case well,and with points that the panels actually support. In my opinion,the physical gap is so large that it's almost arbitrary with what has consistently been shown.

But please,no insults. They aren't necessary :)

This is why you seem like a troll.

You obviously don't think I supported my case well with panel that support what I was saying, but you refuse to say why, then you compliment anyone who says anything supporting Cap, regardless of if it is well supported or not.

Any way,I've been following Cap for,like,years and every scan I've seen supports it (even though I was a follower of Batman first,still am,and he's the guy that got me into comics). So I concur. There's more than enough evidence,so much so that it's basically a core aspect of the character over the years. His feats that have been a core aspect of him since his beginning and leave no room for debate,and the writer quote is just icing on the cake.

So 3 or 4 silver age feats, and 5 modern feats most of which are not consistent or recurring is evidence enough for you? Since you have such a low threshold for accepting cap is superhuman and such a high threshold to say Batman is equal to him, I would say you (as well as slim and krauser) are especially prone to confirmation bias.

However,it can be said that,by feats,that Batman is a borderline superhuman or directly underneath the mark. By FEATS. On paper,he's definitely a peak human,and I don't think that that's changing anytime soon. But it isn't too far fetched to say that he's borderline,or at least,directly below the mark....like DIRECTLY below (because it can be argued). :)

Batman isn't anywhere near Superhuman, and either is Cap. It's fine to say they are enhanced or peak, hell even if you want to say they are superhuman. What's important is that they are shown to be equal. :)

@tg1982 said:

Here I am... and for the record, I'm actually kind of embarrassed to be a Cap fan right now...One guy (@muyjingo) has a different, and debatable, if not valid, opinion. And he gets ganged up on and bullied? It's kind of pathetic...I've debated with muyjingo on this topic at length and in depth, and not ONCE has a mod needed to come in here and tell us to calm down. Yet it happened here. I hope that you guys (some of which are my friends) can just take a step back and calm down, then be civil towards each other.

Thank's dude. I knew I wasn't crazy. ;) Twix and Krauser and Slim make quiet a group. They all will support and agree with each other when disagreeing with me, even whey they don't support each other. It's kind of funny to see them agreeing with each other but then disagree with me. For example, Slim thinks ultimate cap is stronger than 616 cap with which twix and krauser disagree...yet they don't discuss that with each other.

For the record, mods came in (I assume) because I flagged a post, due to the insults and hostility getting a bit much.

Anyway, appreciate the support. Nice to talk with a cap fan who is rational and can agree to disagree.

@twix_right_side

Was there something that I said that was offensive? And gang up on him? Seriously?

Like I said before. Agreeing with anyone who says I'm wrong, dismissing me without considering what I'm saying...yeah..ganging up.

The point is that I read his responses,read his blog,etc and then see if I agree/disagree with his argument and why. I've already stated that I disagree with his argument,and why that is the case with each one.

No, you haven't. You've given absolutely no reason why you disagree. You just keep saying you disagree and parroting that the scans don't support what I'm saying or that I don't give evidence, but you never actually say why or show an instance.

.Personally,I don't find his argument to be one (at least,the ones about Cap,not the ones that are exclusively about Batman) supported by the facts,that's my prerogative

So say why. At least then I can respond to something with evidence instead of vague claims.

tg1982 made some good points in his last thread why your posts were offensive or baiting. I would like to discuss this civilly but for this to happen you need to actually address my argument and make a response...not just dismiss me. You down?

@war_killer said:

I think he is. He's called a SUPER-Soldier for a reason after all. If he were simply peak-human than he'd just be a "kinda-better soldier." :P

Super doesn't mean super powers. It just means greater than the base. Batman is superhuman in a technical sense due to him being so far above average, but he would not be classed as super human in the context we are discussing. In the same way super solider serum doesn't mean a serum that will give super powers, just a serum that will make him greater than normal.

@twix_right_side said:

But all of Batman's training wouldn't be remotely possible since he grew up in money. I mean,his family was the wealthiest and most well loved family in Gotham. It wouldn't be financially possible to travel the world training with the world's finest if he didn't have the abundance in wealth he had. Whereas Cap grew up during the worst depression in the country as Irish Immigrants (I believe they were Irish,so imagine the social strife that they had to experience) and went through hell just to survive,and his father was an abusive douche. Basically,Batman grew up with privilege,Cap didn't.

Batman didn't have access to his money when traveling and was presumed dead for many years. He trained with the best ebcause he sought them out and found them due to being determined.

@krauser99 said:

Now for the nonsensical statement that muj stated that "Movie" Cap is far..far stronger then 616 Cap.

Where is that scan from? Is it canon? Has 616 cap been shown to punch through steel, or through a submarine window under water? Chased down a getaway car on foot?

A decent estimates and calculation of Cap's overall strength.

  • Original Captain America is a 800lbs avg -1100lbs max lifter. 1100lbs avg-1600lbs max bench press.

  • Movie Captain America could be a 1800lbs avg - 2200lbs max lifter. 2200lbs avg-2600lbs max bench press

  • Ultimate Captain America is a 3500lbs avg- 4500lbs max lifter. 4500lbs avg-5000lbs max bench press

When we say max lifter or "lift" it is lifting or holding a particular weight using both hands stretched up and over one's own head while standing still. Military press and clean and jerk can be qualified as well.

#114 Edited by SlimJ87D (10059 posts) - - Show Bio
@muyjingo said:

@slimj87d

This is a classic example of you over estimating a Cap feat and finding a way to dismiss a batman feat, much as creationists keep finding ways to dismiss evolution. Both characters have survived explosions numerous times, Batman without the benefit of a shield.

Then show me where batman has survived a explosion without his batsuit on, because I showed you 3 scans of data of his suit being flame retardant, kevlar and nomex meshed, and more. The scan I showed you was Gambit actually charging and using Captain America's suit as the explosion itself. I'll wait.

Yes, Batman has never done that because Vibranium does not exist in that DCU and Batman does not carry a shield. He has though performed equally impressive strength feats, like hurling around a 600 pound manbat or supporting 1200 pounds at once, pulling open a locked car trunk under water and hanging on inside a jet engine. All more impressive than the cap feats you just mentioned.

I don't think you understand what you are talking about. Go take a physics class. Diamonds are indescribable, yet no one can throw a diamond even though cardboard. Captain America demolished the top of a two story building throwing out 2 full grown men, I think you're also ignoring that feat.

Yeah, Cap can't jump 2 stories high. It's been shown once, it's not consistent, it's PIS. What's m ore PIS is the 20 story high feat, which is very much highballing. Even so, what's the point of posting feats for which there is no direct equivalent?

It's like me saying Cap never survived 24 seconds in space without a suit while Batman has. What does that prove exactly?

Then show me any peak human that can do the feat, the argument is what makes Captain America superhuman, the fact that he just leaped up 2 stories high and used gymnastics to launch himself 10 to 20 stories isn't a superhuman feat? Your argument is that everything Captain America does is something a comic book peak human can do, then show me.

He runs at 3pmph. That was either due to PIS or because it was a tribute to the silver age. No matter what you say 2 showings of him running over 30mph 40 years apart is not consistent.

You're the only one that argues this, I've never seen anyone else try and deny that Captain America has ran at 60 MPH. @tg1982, defend your friend here. You said he debates fairly.

Ripped a large chunk of his chest out and then hours later survived a fall of 100s of feet onto the ground after fighting Jet and Zola.

This is pretty much the same as Batman being stabbed with a shovel in the chest and continuing to fight without the help of any mystical lazarus pit.

No it is not, the Lazarus pits were obviously affecting both Batman and Ras Al Ghul, explain to me why the next morning the wound is completely gone and healed, unless you have proof that Batman has a healing factor. Even Citizenbane, who is say is a Batman expert ended up deleting his post after relooking over the events.

Okay, so lets say the story is truly canon and the shovel thing did happen legitimately. It's not even a equal feat in comparison, captain America didn't get stabbed, he ripped a giant chunk out of himself, fought for hours afterwards and fell 100s of stories off a launch pad and continued to fight. Batman was shoveled, fought Ras and they both fell in the pit a few minutes or even seconds aftewards. How is that equal?

His shield card states he's enhanced:

His Marvel universe handbook entries consistently states him as peak.

I've explained all this to Slim before but he is incapable of considering the evidence. He is essentially religious in his opinions of Cap, which means he is irrational.

Feel free to read through the thread Slim mentioned and see his desperate attempts to defend the 10 or so PIS feats to try and argue Cap is superhuman. One of them is a figure of speech, which is still hilarious.

We also have no source for Brubaker saying Steve is enhanced (not that it matters)

EDIT: Lets start over again. You have some point of views that I will say are fair in your case. My point of views just disagree with yours. Because we're probably going to repeat the same 4 page debate we had in another thread, lets just agree to disagree. Good luck on your new blog, I'll leave it at that.

#115 Edited by MuyJingo (1778 posts) - - Show Bio

All I want is a fair debate, so let's see how it goes. I have a bad feeling becau

@slimj87d said:

Then show me where batman has survived a explosion without his batsuit on, because I showed you 3 scans of data of his suit being flame retardant, kevlar and nomex meshed, and more. The scan I showed you was Gambit actually charging and using Captain America's suit as the explosion itself. I'll wait.

All I want is a fair debate. So I'll respond although I have a bad feeling, having been down this road before...

I've seen all your scans before, and debunked them before.

You realize the scan with Gambit is widely dismissed by Cap fans for being badly written and PIS? I can link you to forums of people discussing it and lamenting it if you like. Although I think you're aware of that.

I can show you several instances of Batman survivng an explosion with his Batsuit on.

Why the double standard? Why does he need to have his batsuit off? That's ridiculous. His batsuit doesn't protect him to the point that he would be unscathed. If that's what you think, then your Gambit charging Cap feat doesn't count since Cap is wearing his armor.

In fact you can see in the scans he is untouched and his armor took the brunt of the explosion. So let's see Cap walk away from an explosion without wearing his protective armor. Or drop the requirement for Batman to leave his batsuit off, since it's a double standard.

I don't think you understand what you are talking about. Go take a physics class. Diamonds are indescribable, yet no one can throw a diamond even though cardboard. Captain America demolished the top of a two story building throwing out 2 full grown men, I think you're also ignoring that feat.

No, I don understand what I am talking about. All too well. I even gave you detailed equations and diagrams last time I debated this with you, which you dismissed.

Punisher lands on a car, it get's crushed. Drop a 200 pound weight on a car, it get's crushed. What's complicated about that?

As for Steve throwing a chunk of concrete...that's just not that impressive to me. He didn't demolish the roof of a two story building (see that's you exaggerating a feat again), he threw it at the two men. I'm not ignoring the feat, I just don't think it's more impressive than Batman hurling around a 600 pound Batman.

My argument is that he isn't physically superior to batman. His feats don't show him to be. That's it.

If you disagree, then maybe you can explain how Batman hurling around 600 pounds is less impressive than Cap throwing 150 pounds?

Then show me any peak human that can do the feat, the argument is what makes Captain America superhuman, the fact that he just leaped up 2 stories high and used gymnastics to launch himself 10 to 20 stories isn't a superhuman feat? Your argument is that everything Captain America does is something a comic book peak human can do, then show me.

I've shown you plenty of feats of Batman doing things that Cap has never done and perhaps couldn't do. You choose to ignore them.

Hanging on inside a jet engine nacelle is practically superhuman, is it not? Has Cap ever done that?

As for him launching himself 20 stories, I'm sorry but I consider that PIS. One off feats shown once, not repeated or consistent I consider PIS. I don't know how anyone couldn't.

You're the only one that argues this, I've never seen anyone else try and deny that Captain America has ran at 60 MPH. @tg1982, defend your friend here. You said he debates fairly.

Why does tg1982 need to come in? Do you think I am debating unfairly somehow?

I'm not the only one who argues this, don't be silly. tg1982 even agreed with me that since he is shown running at 60mph, he did so but that is hardly the norm and due to adrenaline or something off screen.

There simply isn't sufficient evidence that he runs at that speed consistently. You have 1 scan from the silver age and 1 scan as a tribute to the silver age 40 years later.

I don't know why you need to debate this though. I already acknowledge he is superior to batman in running speed. That doesn't make him superhuman when superhumans can run at 200mph....

No it is not, the Lazarus pits were obviously affecting both Batman and Ras Al Ghul, explain to me why the next morning the wound is completely gone and healed, unless you have proof that Batman has a healing factor. Even Citizenbane, who is say is a Batman expert ended up deleting his post after relooking over the events.

So, you know how the lazarus pits work right? YOu need to be submerged in them. Simply standing next to them doesn't do anything.

It's a point in the comic that he doesn't understand why he woke up healed. The pit's didn't heal him when he got back up to fight...his chest isn't healed in the comics while he is fighting so donj't know how that would make sense.

Okay, so lets say the story is truly canon and the shovel thing did happen legitimately. It's not even a equal feat in comparison, captain America didn't get stabbed, he ripped a giant chunk out of himself, fought for hours afterwards and fell 100s of stories off a launch pad and continued to fight. Batman was shoveled, fought Ras and they both fell in the pit a few minutes or even seconds aftewards. How is that equal?

What makes you think the story isn't canon?
So you think the feat is not exactly equal because Cap suffered more damage after getting wounded in the chest?
First of all, Batman didn't fall in the pits when fighting Ra's. That's flat out incorrect.
Batman had been awake and fighting for some time, already suffered damage, got shoveled in the chest and had to continue fighting.
The feat is having a giant chest wound and continuing to fight, which is true for both characters. I think you're getting lost in details.

#116 Edited by SlimJ87D (10059 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo:

All I want is a fair debate. So I'll respond although I have a bad feeling, having been down this road before...

I've seen all your scans before, and debunked them before.

You realize the scan with Gambit is widely dismissed by Cap fans for being badly written and PIS? I can link you to forums of people discussing it and lamenting it if you like. Although I think you're aware of that.

I can show you several instances of Batman survivng an explosion with his Batsuit on.

I am unaware of any Cap fans that dismiss this scan, Gambit fans usually dismiss the feat until they are shown Cap's other durability showings. It's usually a Gambit fan that doesn't know much about Cap.

Lastly, I asked for batman tanking a explosion without the Batsuit to be a comparable feat, otherwise he still has the bullet proof cape, and the other materials protecting him.

Why the double standard? Why does he need to have his batsuit off? That's ridiculous. His batsuit doesn't protect him to the point that he would be unscathed. If that's what you think, then your Gambit charging Cap feat doesn't count since Cap is wearing his armor.

In fact you can see in the scans he is untouched and his armor took the brunt of the explosion. So let's see Cap walk away from an explosion without wearing his protective armor. Or drop the requirement for Batman to leave his batsuit off, since it's adouble standard.

Wrong, his armor was WHAT blew up.

No, I don understand what I am talking about. All too well. I even gave you detailed equations and diagrams last time I debated this with you, which you dismissed.

Punisher lands on a car, it get's crushed. Drop a 200 pound weight on a car, it get's crushed. What's complicated about that?

As for Steve throwing a chunk of concrete...that's just not that impressive to me. He didn't demolish the roof of a two story building (see that's you exaggerating a feat again), he threw it at the two men. I'm not ignoring the feat, I just don't think it's more impressive than Batman hurling around a 600 pound Batman.

My argument is that he isn't physically superior to batman. His feats don't show him to be. That's it.

If you disagree, then maybe you can explain how Batman hurling around 600 pounds is less impressive than Cap throwing 150 pounds?

What details of what diagrams? Captain America's shield weighs 12 lbs, it is blunt as it would slice people to death everytime he bashed people in. The material hardly allows him to throw it through tanks, vehicles, etc.

If you want the equation, it's this.

1/2 * mass of shield * velocity of shield ^2 = Energy penetrated (energy the material received to go through non-linear stress) + 1/2 * mass of shield * velocity of shield after penetration ^2

There is no material hardness in that equation, which is what you are trying to argue. Lead bullets can be softer than steel yet they travel at speeds with a good amount of density to penetrate steel.

We're talking about Batman swinging around 600 lbs vs Captain America throwing a 100+ lb as high as power lines (20+ ft) demolishing not just one wall, but a second wall and sending out 2 adults (150 lbs). I don't see it as a comparable feat, and lastly I debunked your 600 lb claim. manbats weight 200 lbs. I thought he was talking about all 3 man-bats he was fighting at once. You like databooks don't you? I hope you fix the time to fix that in your blog.

I've shown you plenty of feats of Batman doing things that Cap has never done and perhaps couldn't do. You choose to ignore them.

Hanging on inside a jet engine nacelle is practically superhuman, is it not? Has Cap ever done that?

As for him launching himself 20 stories, I'm sorry but I consider that PIS. One off feats shown once, not repeated or consistent I consider PIS. I don't know how anyone couldn't.

Fair enough, Cap hasn't had the chance to hang from a jet, and as of right now, I don't' have time to research the times where Bruce has shown a upper limit to his leaping ability.

What makes you think the story isn't canon?
So you think the feat is not exactly equal because Cap suffered more damage after getting wounded in the chest?
First of all, Batman didn't fall in the pits when fighting Ra's. That's flat out incorrect.
Batman had been awake and fighting for some time, already suffered damage, got shoveled in the chest and had to continue fighting.
The feat is having a giant chest wound and continuing to fight, which is true for both characters. I think you're getting lost in details.

I don't' think the feat is equal, because Bruce just had a open wound, Cap has pieces of his body missing. Bruce only fought a few more minutes after his wound and they fell in the pits afterwards, Cap actually went on for hours and traveled miles to only fight Zola and fall 100s of feet off a launching pad.

#117 Edited by Twix_Right_Side (2321 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

This will probably be my last reply in this thread...unless I can't refuse the bait or someone makes an interesting/valid argument.

@twix_right_side

So, let me reply to the last post I didn't reply to, then everyone else.

More bullet points.

  1. So what's your point here? That I was being petty? Yes, you caught me. I can only be civil for so long when confronted with constant childishness. Bingo. Petty is Petty,though. No matter what. Even I was being such in this thread.
  2. Actually, that's exactly what you implied. I can quote the relevant section if you doubt it. You were saying you and the people who agree with you hold the opinion most cap fans share, which simply isn't true (in terms of him being greater than ultimate cap). That wasn't really my opinion. I said that,if a person wanted to say that,by feats,that 616 Cap is stronger than Ultimate Cap,then they will be able to support it. However,it's my opinion that 1610 is stronger than 616,and that's the opinion that most comic fans (and Cap fans) share.
  3. You've seen me in countless threads before you joined, not supporting my argument? I always do my best, if I don't have a scan I will detail my reasoning. I think you're either made this up or dismissed what I was saying. Can you find one thread where I am not supporting my argument? A link to such a thread would be great, as I doubt it exists. My stance on the "seeing faster feat" is not based on assumption at all, just cautious interpretation. It's the cap fans who are convinced it means he sees in bullet time, which is nothing but assumption. Not that you weren't supporting your argument (you support most of your arguments from what I've seen of you),it's just that your support is tenuous and not supported by the scans. They are almost stretching it imo. So that's not what I was talking about (and unless there is another MuyJingo on the vine,then I am not making this up...unless you want me to search through ComicVine forums for an old thread?). Also,you say that it's nothing but assumption what "Cap fans" believe,but it's not. It's actually a logical interpretation based off of Sharon's amazement. There was no implication or anything towards seeing the weapon. If that were the case,he wouldn't say that he was "seeing the bullets faster".Sharon asked how he can dodge bullets. There was literally no emphasis or mention of a weapon. That's why I believe you are grasping,and that's why I disagreed.

Every Cap scan I've seen,especially the ones presented,seem consistent and well supported by their arguments. The arguments that you give do not. That's why I generally disagree. I don't really see much,or any,that is supported by the scans in your argument,or with what has been consistently shown.

  1. Well that's what you've said for every scan I've ever uploaded. Just wanted to point out again how it's nonsense that you say I'm not supporting my argument. Not what I'm saying.
  2. ok.
  3. -
  4. So you are saying everyone has different interpretation and because it is all interpreted every interpretation is equally valid? Sorry, but no. And I agree, they conveyed what they needed to in the panel, which is not that Steve see's in bullet time.
  5. He didn't say he sees bullets. He said he sees faster. Not what I'm saying at all,and in fact it's quite the opposite (I'm not sure if you understand what I am trying to say). What I'm saying is that not every interpretation is valid. And she said how does he dodge bullets so easily. The topic at hand is bullets....he said he sees faster. There is not much interpretation.
  6. -
  7. So if you know how it works then you know it's reliable, so why did you try and dismiss it?
  8. Folk such as slim and krauser tend to highball cap feats (many which are PIS) while lowballing or dismissing batman's feats. I do think a single instance of cap doing something above his power level is PIS. That's kind of the definition. And by the same time,I notice that you undermine Cap's feats A LOT and highball some of Batman's,and some of the logic you apply to Cap feats to undermine them is not applied to Batman ones. For example,Batman has only held on to a plane engine,what,once? However,it seems consistent (in my opinion) with things he has done in the past.
  9. Why are you talking about CV rules? It has nothing to do with that. I'm just saying 5 is a suggestion for feats to be consistant before they are not PIS. Nothing to do with CV rules, relax. And no where do we have to go by 5. So I just don't really want to go by such a suggestion. There is no rule on the forums (as in,Comicvine forums,the site which we're discussing on) that we have to go by 5 or 3 or 4 or anything specific like that.
  10. Your experience is limited if you think that comic book fandom is not divided on this issue, yes. Threads on Cap being superhuman or not go into the thousands, because it is debated equally by both sides. So yes, glad you agree that it was limited. Yeah,that's exactly an example of disingenuity. No my experience isn't limited,and I am WELL aware that comic fans are divided on a LOT of issues,like this one. So I don't think you got the point at what I was saying. So no,I didn't agree.
  11. -
  12. I'm not getting sidetracked into proving that. Not when one of your buddies slimj89 already made a great post explaining why ultimate cap is superior. I couldn't do a better job myself as I don't know the character as well. So your knowledge of the character is limited? Not that it matters,since it seems to be true. Ultimate Cap is seen by most as the superior to 616 fans,and I concur.
  13. As above.

The point of a debate is to look at things from an objective standpoint to make a conclusion based off of the facts presented. Clearly,that is not happening,especially when one's mind is already made up.

Exactly. When you ignore evidence and don't bother to investigate it shows a strong bias and a lack of interest in trying to come to establish any sort of objective truth.Except that I haven't done that. Not at all. Disagreeing with "evidence" is not the same thing as ignoring it,so that point is out the window.

For the record,it seems that you actually do make comments like this and try to pass them off as "PIS" or dismiss them in some way,shape,or form.So excuse me if I was cynical,and remain so.

No, I don't, and I would appreciate it if you stop accusing me of acting like this. I consider a feat PIS if it has only been shown once or twice over a great span of time (like Cap's running feat). If it is consistantly shown, i.e. once every two years or so, then it clearly isn't PIS. And who decided on this limit? PIS is usually when a character does something that they normally are not shown to do outside of their limits,Cap's superhuman speed is something that isn't exactly new to him. It doesn't have to be shown every 2 years,or 1 year. If that's the case,most comic book feats are "PIS". No one decided on this limit.

And by the way,I've already seen your "evidence", and this entire thread,and in the other,they seem to continue to follow this trend. I think I've seen what I've needed to.

See, this is funny, because you have yet to actually attack a single point of my argument or make a single argument yourself. Nothing but ad hominems. "You're this type of person" and "I've seen what I needed to" etc etc. I've made a strong case, you may not agree with it but attack my argument, not me. You've yet to do that. Except I have. One in particular is the "seeing faster" scan. And that's what we were discussing the whole time. And by the way,calling other people "kid" and replying with equally hostile remarks doesn't exactly help your case.

Don't try to tell me that I'm not interested in "looking at any evidence that may challenge my opinion",that is a completely baseless and weak assertion.

You've been reading for years apparently. So why not make an argument based on one of my posts where I supply evidence and make an argument, because you've given absolutely no evidence that you even acknowledge my argument as valid. Not that you disagree and have a reason for doing so, but that you don't even bother acknowledging the argument I'm making. I'm really confused,because I am not sure if you've been reading what I've been typing this whole time,Muyjingo. We were discussing the bullet feat. I am saying that I disagree with your claims on the feat,your claims about Batman/Cap,and,well,a lot of things.

And honestly,it doesn't matter. I doubt that anything I say will get accepted or won't be dismissed,so me not saying anything will have the same effect.

Can you show me where I have dismissed anything you've said? How about every Cap scan that was discussed by slim or the others? Not exactly anything I've said,but more what they've said.

And I cannot say that your reasoning or the arguments presented are supported by the scans, and seems to be backed by speculative information.

Yet again you don't make any specific argument, just dismissing my entire argument. What is the speculative information? Which argument in particular is not supported by a corresponding scan? Look above. I am not repeating myself.

And to be completely honest,I have seen you do that very exact same thing to Captain America (dismissing them as "exaggerated" or "PIS" or any of the other ways you dismissed them) in this thread and multiple others in your arguments,while doing the inverse for Batman. It's a bit ironic in my opinion.

It's certainly not ironic, even if you were correct. So you're saying I dismiss Cap feats as PIS while I don't acknowledge Batman feats as PIS? All the feats may well be PIS, but that doesn't change anything as far as them having equal feats and so therefore drawing the conclusion that they are equal.

I HIGHLY doubt that they are all PIS. And I didn't see anything convincing to support the claim that they were equals.

the second one isn't canon because of DC's reboot.....unfortunately,but that is another thorn in my side

For the purposes of this argument, that's irrelevant. Actually,it is relevant. Because it didn't happen anymore. It's essentially an alternate universe version of the character. They are distinctly and completely different. Are we not using current versions? Or can we cherry pick from both sides (New 52 and Pre-New 52) to our convenience? It's like me using 616 and 1610 Cap feats all the same.

Batman is one of the strongest peak humans in comics in my opinion,but he isn't on Cap's level in mine.

So elaborate on why. Because,in my opinion,Cap has superior feats. This is consistent with what I've seen.

@krauser99 said:

I'm glad the majority of people are viewing Cap in the correct manner. He is a super human like Deathstroke. Accept his feats in strength are much better then Slade.

The only silly idea in this thread is saying that Batman is a true Superhuman which is irrational that poster mujingo likes to post and even sillier saying his strength and durability is equal to Captain America.

Easy troll. I never claimed Batman was superhuman and the majority of cap vans do not agree with you.

@slimj87d

Always the same old feats. They have been debunked numerous times yet you still don't listen and just blindly repost, like people who endlessly quote the bible even when it's been explained to such a fanatic why they are wrong.

Cap falling from a height and crushing a car isn't a feat showing him to be superhuman, it is barely a durability feat. A heavy wait falling from a large height will crush a car. That's just basic physics, even Punisher was shown to crush a car.

What does that have to do with anything?Crushing a car is not the focus of the feat or what is impressive. Batman's done the same. The impressive part is falling 200 feet and not showing pain. That is what is impressive. A human cannot fall 200 feet and be unfazed.

2. Been shown to take and survive an explosion like Cap has. Batman has walked out of a explosion but we never saw the context behind what happened, we've seen cap actually take an explosion that destroyed and blew apart trees.

This is a classic example of you over estimating a Cap feat and finding a way to dismiss a batman feat, much as creationists keep finding ways to dismiss evolution. Both characters have survived explosions numerous times, Batman without the benefit of a shield.

But Batman has his suit and Cape. His Cape,in the pre-new 52 universe,has been described as being able to take a "howitzer shell" much to Roy Harper's amazement.

3. Batman has never thrown and pitched objects hard enough to destroy and slice vehicles in http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3220577-avx-zone_007.jpghalf. Cap has. He's destroyed tanks, cars, helicopters, etc. His shield weighs 12 lbs. Cap has also thrown a 150+ piece of concrete through a 2 story building destroying it and also sending 2 160+ pound men through it.

Yes, Batman has never done that because Vibranium does not exist in that DCU and Batman does not carry a shield. He has though performed equally impressive strength feats, like hurling around a 600 pound manbat or supporting 1200 pounds at once, pulling open a locked car trunk under water and hanging on inside a jet engine. All more impressive than the cap feats you just mentioned. I don't really think that those are more impressive,but what I think is more impressive and what you think is more impressive is completely irrelevant. Vibranium does not have to exist,because Batman can do that with Nth Metal,or Prometheum. Both exist in DC,not Marvel. Vibranium does not have specific cutting properties,and neither does Cap's shield. It has never been shown or hinted at having such properties on panel. But Batman has not done the same....ever. You cannot claim the feats are the same if they do not involve the same factors. They don't even involve the same objects (not counting shield),so that point is just rubbish and ignores important details that can make all the difference.

Batman has never leaped 2 stories high like Captain America has nor has he propelled himself using gymnastics 20 stories high or a front flip with a 100 lb piece of ice on his legs

Yeah, Cap can't jump 2 stories high. It's been shown once, it's not consistent, it's PIS. What's more PIS is the 20 story high feat, which is very much highballing. Even so, what's the point of posting feats for which there is no direct equivalent?

It's like me saying Cap never survived 24 seconds in space without a suit while Batman has. What does that prove exactly?

Just because it's shown once doesn't mean that it's not consistent. If that's the case,A LOT of Batman feats are inconsistent,and are PIS. For example,how often does Batman hang on the outsides of Jets near the engine? How often does he hurl around Manbats? You cannot dismiss everything he says as "highballing" or PIS.

Ran at 60 MPH while holding 160 lbs of weight in his arms and back (Shield and Bucky).

He runs at 3pmph. That was either due to PIS or because it was a tribute to the silver age. No matter what you say 2 showings of him running over 30mph 40 years apart is not consistent. The time apart literally has NOTHING to do with anything if it is still canon,what matters is if he has shown that he has done something similar before.

Ripped a large chunk of his chest out and then hours later survived a fall of 100s of feet onto the ground after fighting Jet and Zola.

This is pretty much the same as Batman being stabbed with a shovel in the chest and continuing to fight without the help of any mystical lazarus pit. Having a huge gaping wound in your chest that you ripped out is not the same as being impaled with a shovel. Both are impressive,but again,different factors,different situations. One is where a person is hungry,starving,beaten,etc and he is ripping out a HUGE wound in his chest of his own will. Batman was impaled by Ra's in the chest. You seem to be ignoring the important details that add the context and make all the difference.

His shield card states he's enhanced:

His Marvel universe handbook entries consistently states him as peak.

I've explained all this to Slim before but he is incapable of considering the evidence. He is essentially religious in his opinions of Cap, which means he is irrational.

Feel free to read through the thread Slim mentioned and see his desperate attempts to defend the 10 or so PIS feats to try and argue Cap is superhuman. One of them is a figure of speech, which is still hilarious.

We also have no source for Brubaker saying Steve is enhanced (not that it matters)

Didn't he just provide a direct quote?

@twix_right_side said:

You've presented your case well,and with points that the panels actually support. In my opinion,the physical gap is so large that it's almost arbitrary with what has consistently been shown.

But please,no insults. They aren't necessary :)

This is why you seem like a troll.

You obviously don't think I supported my case well with panel that support what I was saying, but you refuse to say why, then you compliment anyone who says anything supporting Cap, regardless of if it is well supported or not.

Again,saying that others seem like trolls,or claiming that they have a bias or any of that doesn't help your argument at all. I believe that,to the ones providing evidence,that they are doing it and coming to conclusions that are directly supported by the scans. Your evidence for your arguments doesn't seem supported by the scans shown,and the evidence for them seems to be stretching it. Like the bullet feat. I don't think that your conclusion is shown or supported by the scan.

Any way,I've been following Cap for,like,years and every scan I've seen supports it (even though I was a follower of Batman first,still am,and he's the guy that got me into comics). So I concur. There's more than enough evidence,so much so that it's basically a core aspect of the character over the years. His feats that have been a core aspect of him since his beginning and leave no room for debate,and the writer quote is just icing on the cake.

So 3 or 4 silver age feats, and 5 modern feats most of which are not consistent or recurring is evidence enough for you? Since you have such a low threshold for accepting cap is superhuman and such a high threshold to say Batman is equal to him, I would say you (as well as slim and krauser) are especially prone to confirmation bias. Yeah,this isn't helping your credibility,and is probably a reason why I'm siding with them. You cannot claim that a person that you literally know NOTHING about holds a bias because they don't agree with you. Low threshold? I use to think that Cap could only lift 800 lbs at max and was just an ordinary guy with a shield. Please don't say that I have a low threshold for Cap,it's just another weak assertion. I can say that you are utterly refusing to acknowledge even a single ONE of his feats,and apply the same logic to you,but I'm not.

However,it can be said that,by feats,that Batman is a borderline superhuman or directly underneath the mark. By FEATS. On paper,he's definitely a peak human,and I don't think that that's changing anytime soon. But it isn't too far fetched to say that he's borderline,or at least,directly below the mark....like DIRECTLY below (because it can be argued). :)

Batman isn't anywhere near Superhuman, and either is Cap. It's fine to say they are enhanced or peak, hell even if you want to say they are superhuman. What's important is that they are shown to be equal. :)

Except I don't believe that they are equal. And I had an open discussion with a Batfan some time before,and he argued that by feats,Batman can be considered borderline superhuman or directly underneath the mark (and he supported his case well),which is why I basically think that his argument was well supported by the scans. That was his opinion (that I think stands on rational ground),and it's not that I agree with him,it's that I think that it can be argued. This is yours.

@tg1982 said:

Here I am... and for the record, I'm actually kind of embarrassed to be a Cap fan right now...One guy (@muyjingo) has a different, and debatable, if not valid, opinion. And he gets ganged up on and bullied? It's kind of pathetic...I've debated with muyjingo on this topic at length and in depth, and not ONCE has a mod needed to come in here and tell us to calm down. Yet it happened here. I hope that you guys (some of which are my friends) can just take a step back and calm down, then be civil towards each other.

Thank's dude. I knew I wasn't crazy. ;) Twix and Krauser and Slim make quiet a group. They all will support and agree with each other when disagreeing with me, even whey they don't support each other. It's kind of funny to see them agreeing with each other but then disagree with me. For example, Slim thinks ultimate cap is stronger than 616 cap with which twix and krauser disagree...yet they don't discuss that with each other. Yeah,it's clear that you didn't quite pay attention to much that I've said,because that's not what I think. At all.

For the record, mods came in (I assume) because I flagged a post, due to the insults and hostility getting a bit much.

Anyway, appreciate the support. Nice to talk with a cap fan who is rational and can agree to disagree.

@twix_right_side

Was there something that I said that was offensive? And gang up on him? Seriously?

Like I said before. Agreeing with anyone who says I'm wrong, dismissing me without considering what I'm saying...yeah..ganging up.

Yeah,except that I am considering what you are saying. That is a ridiculous and false claim that is on faulty ground.

The point is that I read his responses,read his blog,etc and then see if I agree/disagree with his argument and why. I've already stated that I disagree with his argument,and why that is the case with each one.

No, you haven't. You've given absolutely no reason why you disagree. You just keep saying you disagree and parroting that the scans don't support what I'm saying or that I don't give evidence, but you never actually say why or show an instance. Really? I haven't said WHY I disagree? I haven't said that I think that your interpretation of the scan isn't supported and why? Have you a read a single argument of mine??? And when you made a claim,I say why I agree/disagree,and why it is/isn't supported by the evidence.

.Personally,I don't find his argument to be one (at least,the ones about Cap,not the ones that are exclusively about Batman) supported by the facts,that's my prerogative

So say why. At least then I can respond to something with evidence instead of vague claims.

tg1982 made some good points in his last thread why your posts were offensive or baiting. I would like to discuss this civilly but for this to happen you need to actually address my argument and make a response...not just dismiss me. You down?

@war_killer said:

I think he is. He's called a SUPER-Soldier for a reason after all. If he were simply peak-human than he'd just be a "kinda-better soldier." :P

Super doesn't mean super powers. It just means greater than the base. Batman is superhuman in a technical sense due to him being so far above average, but he would not be classed as super human in the context we are discussing. In the same way super solider serum doesn't mean a serum that will give super powers, just a serum that will make him greater than normal.

@twix_right_side said:

But all of Batman's training wouldn't be remotely possible since he grew up in money. I mean,his family was the wealthiest and most well loved family in Gotham. It wouldn't be financially possible to travel the world training with the world's finest if he didn't have the abundance in wealth he had. Whereas Cap grew up during the worst depression in the country as Irish Immigrants (I believe they were Irish,so imagine the social strife that they had to experience) and went through hell just to survive,and his father was an abusive douche. Basically,Batman grew up with privilege,Cap didn't.

Batman didn't have access to his money when traveling and was presumed dead for many years. He trained with the best ebcause he sought them out and found them due to being determined.

He used his wealth to travel the world,did he not? Or did he just board a plane without paying?

@krauser99 said:

Now for the nonsensical statement that muj stated that "Movie" Cap is far..far stronger then 616 Cap.

Where is that scan from? Is it canon? Has 616 cap been shown to punch through steel, or through a submarine window under water? Chased down a getaway car on foot?

A decent estimates and calculation of Cap's overall strength.

  • Original Captain America is a 800lbs avg -1100lbs max lifter. 1100lbs avg-1600lbs max bench press.

  • Movie Captain America could be a 1800lbs avg - 2200lbs max lifter. 2200lbs avg-2600lbs max bench press

  • Ultimate Captain America is a 3500lbs avg- 4500lbs max lifter. 4500lbs avg-5000lbs max bench press

When we say max lifter or "lift" it is lifting or holding a particular weight using both hands stretched up and over one's own head while standing still. Military press and clean and jerk can be qualified as we

Krauser is giving you feats (although he's being a bit insulting),Slim is doing it,and you dismiss them as Cap fans with some bias ,and you do the same to me essentially because I disagree with you?!?!

Yes,you gave reasons,and you gave scans,but they DO NOT seem to be supported by the feats,or even by your logic in my opinion. I'm not exactly following any of it,and I don't see any of it stated or supported by scans. Add that on to the fact that you completely ignore and dismiss other feats as "highballing" or "PIS" when it doesn't seem to disagree with what they've shown in the past,and that Batman's aren't (not saying that they are,by the way). Put simply,I don't think that anything is going to convince you,and you seem to like to make the weak claim that I have a bias. People aren't saying these things about you or disagreeing because they have a bias,it's because your arguments are poorly supported (you gave reasons,but the reasons are not supported by the proof),you throw around names and claim that people have a bias (not that they haven't done the same to you),and you aren't really being consistent (the PIS things that I've mentioned). By your logic,I can say that you aren't "considering the evidence",and that you have a "confirmation bias" (not saying that you do,by the way). They provided proof to support their reasoning. I could easily and fluidly follow how they came to their assertion,and it seems to be supported by the scans,and it seems consistent with the conclusion I came to (even at the time when I thought that Cap was a normal human with a shield). I agree with them. I don't agree with them and their reasoning because I'm a Cap fan with a bias,and I'm more loyal to Batman anyway since I came into comics because of him,so all I'm saying is that your argument (just ANY of them) seems to be on faulty reasoning,and isn't supported by what is shown.So..... I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree,because we'll just waste time and go in a circle. And frankly,this argument is going nowhere. Completely ignore this post if you want (heck,we might as well,since we aren't gonna agree on this). So agree to disagree.

I have an exam tomorrow,so I must leave now.

#118 Posted by Frozen (13548 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: Just ignore him, he clearly isn't listening to reason.

#119 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:
@krauser99 said:

I'm glad the majority of people are viewing Cap in the correct manner. He is a super human like Deathstroke. Accept his feats in strength are much better then Slade.

The only silly idea in this thread is saying that Batman is a true Superhuman which is irrational that poster mujingo likes to post and even sillier saying his strength and durability is equal to Captain America.

@muyjingo said:Easy troll. I never claimed Batman was superhuman and the majority of cap vans do not agree with you.


@muyjingo said:Hanging on inside a jet engine nacelle is practically superhuman,


@muyjingo said:I agree. But, by the same logic, Batman has also become superhuman. I mean, his feats more than show it.
@krauser99 said:Liar. You say Batman has also become superhuman. Marvel has actually called Cap superhuman in books. Makes sense since he is a super solder. Batman has been called many times just a a man. A impressive man that is. Or even once Superman called him the worlds most dangerous man. But a man none the less. Cap's strength feats are way better and his durability feats. You just tend to lie or ignore them.




@krauser99 said:

Now for the nonsensical statement that muj stated that "Movie" Cap is far..far stronger then 616 Cap.

@muyjingo said:Where is that scan from? Is it canon? Has 616 cap been shown to punch through steel, or through a submarine window under water? Chased down a getaway car on foot?

A decent estimates and calculation of Cap's overall strength.

  • Original Captain America is a 800lbs avg -1100lbs max lifter. 1100lbs avg-1600lbs max bench press.

  • Movie Captain America could be a 1800lbs avg - 2200lbs max lifter. 2200lbs avg-2600lbs max bench press

  • Ultimate Captain America is a 3500lbs avg- 4500lbs max lifter. 4500lbs avg-5000lbs max bench press

@krauser99 said:All your estimations are wrong. Yes it is main stream Cap universe from WW2. He later fights Red Skull with cosmic cube.

@krauser99 said:It's not like the speed of the get away car was shown and it had to make turns as movie Cap did take short cuts as well. Please I already showed a similar feat comparison between movie cap and 616 Cap. The magnet feat of Comic Cap is far superior then Movies Cap's magnet feats. Notice how you just ignore what you don't like? As Cap has also stopped a falling elevator with his shield. To throw his shield through a tank.... to even dead stop a class 10 punch. Pulling a supply truck through the desert. Plus it is 2200 lbs bench. One side of the bench is 1100 lbs. So both sides of the total weight would be 2200 lbs. Plus it wasn't even shown as Cap's max either.

Oh....wait. You only add it up when it is Batman benching 500 lbs right? And you don't do the same for Cap. Show some type of consistency will you.

@krauser99 said:Your off on everything that you say. Bashes through a submarine panel. He didn't even use the shield edge like Movie Cap did on a tank panel. Stopping a class 10 punch easily. Stopping a runnaway car. Throwing his shield through a tank turret and it's not a panel like Movie Cap did on a tank. 616 Cap strength feats wreck Movie Cap's feats. Especially the magnet feat that you ignore. The third one he is shown holding a friggin car with just his strength alone. Buck is only holding down Cap for weight and not grabbing the car or the pole. As the scan states Cap has the strength of a 2 ton truck.

As for Ult Cap. He I must admit has some good feats that can match with 616 Cap. But 616 Cap majority feats are better over all. He only gets less slack since his bio has him at a 4. While 616 Cap is at a 3. As Cap's dilemma seem to be fans like you comparing his peak human with Bat's peak human label, as being one in the same in strength. But hand books low ball Cap as they don't even mention his "rapid" healing ability in his hand books.

Seriously Cap is way stronger then Batman or Movie Cap.

All you can do now is just ignore these feats, say PIS, or say the don't count because it was to long ago.....LOL.

#120 Edited by MuyJingo (1778 posts) - - Show Bio
@slimj87d said:

I am unaware of any Cap fans that dismiss this scan, Gambit fans usually dismiss the feat until they are shown Cap's other durability showings. It's usually a Gambit fan that doesn't know much about Cap.

Lastly, I asked for batman tanking a explosion without the Batsuit to be a comparable feat, otherwise he still has the bullet proof cape, and the other materials protecting him.

Yes, Batman has minimal protection from his Batsuit, just as Cap has protection from his armored suit.

It's ridiculous to try and claim if Batman survives it is due to his suit but if Cap survives it's due to his durability.

An explosion like that should have at the least, had him bleeding.

Anyway, here is a link to one of many threads with people disputing that feat.

Wrong, his armor was WHAT blew up.

Exactly. His armor took the brunt, not him. It's a feat for his armor, not him.

What details of what diagrams? Captain America's shield weighs 12 lbs, it is blunt as it would slice people to death everytime he bashed people in. The material hardly allows him to throw it through tanks, vehicles, etc.

To debunk your feat that Cap landing on a car or leaving impacts in the ground was somehow impressive. It isn't, it's basic physics.

In any case, I found an equivalent feat and am curious if you will say it is not equivalent.

And another one, free falling. Not equivalent to the one from the jet but equivalent to other cap feats you posted.

If you want the equation, it's this.

1/2 * mass of shield * velocity of shield ^2 = Energy penetrated (energy the material received to go through non-linear stress) + 1/2 * mass of shield * velocity of shield after penetration ^2

There is no material hardness in that equation, which is what you are trying to argue. Lead bullets can be softer than steel yet they travel at speeds with a good amount of density to penetrate steel.

This is to do with me saying his feat had more to do with the shield than him?

A lot of the feats you posted were due to the shield more than him. Such as him blocking the heat from a rocket launch with his shield.

I am guessing you are talking about the shield through the truck feat. It is no doubt impressive, and no doubt it cannot be blamed solely on the shield.

But let me ask you this. Do you believe the truck feat consistent? Can you name other feats where he has shown to do anywhere near that much damage with his shield?

The only other one that comes close is throwing his shield at the helicopter tail....but I think that was more to do with the tail spinning over something jammed in it than strength.

---

Let me ask you this. My argument is that Batman and Captain America are phsyical equals except for healing and running speed.

We both agree both men can beat up say 100 guys with guns without issue. They have both done things beyond the capabilities of any human in the real world.

Batman also has some miraculous feats that Cap does not have equivilant scans for. I've been playing catchup trying to show Batman feats close to Cap's feats.

The thing is I could easily post Batman feats more impressive than a lot of these cap fans. What then?

I honestly don't understand how you can say the two are not in the same league and physically equal. Or at the least, that it is not clear that Cap has an advantage over Batman.

Batman has multiple Strength feats that are beyond his capabilities and that I consider PIS, but I could easily paste 10 scans of things Cap, such as cap hanging on inside a jet engine or prying a trunk open under water.

We're talking about Batman swinging around 600 lbs vs Captain America throwing a 100+ lb as high as power lines (20+ ft) demolishing not just one wall, but a second wall and sending out 2 adults (150 lbs). I don't see it as a comparable feat, and lastly I debunked your 600 lb claim. manbats weight 200 lbs. I thought he was talking about all 3 man-bats he was fighting at once. You like databooks don't you? I hope you fix the time to fix that in your blog.

Err, in the panel I posted of Batman swinging around a 600 pound manbat, he states quite clearly that it weighs 600pounds. Did you even look at the feat or just dismiss it confidently?

And he didn't demolish a wall. I don't know why you keep saying that. It's an unfounded assumption.

Hurling around 600 pounds for a longer period of time than it takes to throw 100 pounds 20 feet is more impressive.

I can throw lets say 10 pounds 10 feet. If I can swing 100 pounds around for a minute that's more impressive. It isn't a burst of strength but endured strength.

Fair enough, Cap hasn't had the chance to hang from a jet, and as of right now, I don't' have time to research the times where Bruce has shown a upper limit to his leaping ability.

---

Well, thank you. Just trying to give an example of something cap hasn't done yet is "Superhuman".

I don't' think the feat is equal, because Bruce just had a open wound, Cap has pieces of his body missing. Bruce only fought a few more minutes after his wound and they fell in the pits afterwards, Cap actually went on for hours and traveled miles to only fight Zola and fall 100s of feet off a launching pad.

Do you see the assumption you're making here to discredit the feat?

1. You don't know how long they fought for. It could have been an hour.

2. They DID NOT fall in the pits afterwards.

I agree the feats are not exactly equal, I think they are close enough to show the characters as equal in capabilities.

@twix_right_side

This is the last time I'm replying to you.

@tg1982 called you out on how you were being needlessly antagonistic, then you PMed me to apologize and ask for forgiveness, then you're back to the same stuff here.

You remind me of myself on forums at 16. Aggressive for no reason, feeling I need to prove myself and "win", using words I don't understand but having a heart in the right place and not wanting to make enemies. That seems like you to a tee.

The thing is, you don't have to win this. There isn't anything to win by treating it as a competition. If you treat it as an opportunity, we might come to understand each others views and gain mutual respect for one another. I'd like that.

Now, let me respond to some of your points.

1. That is what you said. I can quote the sections where you claim exactly that, verbatim. 5. Yes, there is. The subject was dodging bullets. He said he sees faster. That does not mean he sees in bullet time, and it's fanciful for you to assert that. But if you're set in thinking that's the only valid interpretation, then there's no point in banging my head against a brick wall.

8. You're absolutely correct. My point that seems to have eluded you is that it doesn't make sense to take a handful of PIS/standalone non recurring feats and use them to elevate the character. That's what people are doing for Cap, and so I'm doing the same for Batman, to show that I think both characters are equal, even if you highball or lowball their feats, as long as you do it equally for both sides. If we don't lowball any feats from either side, there is a standoff.

The "cap side" is lowballing bat feats and highballing cap feats and I'm doing the opposite. If we just treat every feat as valid without finding reasons to dismiss them, how would the characters not be equal?

The only way that happens is by starting to make desperate arguments like the batsuit is responsible and not batman etc etc.

9. No, we don't have to by five. It was just a suggestion. Nowhere did I say it was required, it was just an idea to try and improve the debate by having a rule, you know, some consistency and order. it was a SUGGESTION. See how you're being needlessly aggressive by assuming the worst and arguing against it?

10. Actually, you've shown yourself up here as you contradict yourself. Earlier in the thread that is exactly what you said, that the majority of cap fans agree with you and slim and krauser and I was obviouslly trolling. Now, you correctly note cap fans are in fact divided on the issue. I'm glad.

12. Cool. Then check out the thread where @slimj87d claims otherwise and argue it with him.

Except that I haven't done that. Not at all. Disagreeing with "evidence" is not the same thing as ignoring it,so that point is out the window.

Except all you made is vague claims. If you truly disagree with something then you should have stated WHY. You can see how foolish you look if you just keep making claims and never stating WHY you disagree, can't 't you?

And who decided on this limit? PIS is usually when a character does something that they normally are not shown to do outside of their limits,Cap's superhuman speed is something that isn't exactly new to him. It doesn't have to be shown every 2 years,or 1 year. If that's the case,most comic book feats are "PIS". No one decided on this limit.

You're being daft here, or lost in your anger/determination to win. As above, it was merely a suggestion.

And yes, feats that are shown very irregularly and are beyond a characters capabilities are PIS. Superman putting out a fire with his breath? Not PIS, and many examples. Superman turning back time (I know it was from a movie, but if you understand the point you don't need to argue it) certainly PIS. Batman hanging on inside a jet engine or walking out of an explosion unscathed? Without a doubt PIS.

Except I have. One in particular is the "seeing faster" scan. And that's what we were discussing the whole time. And by the way,calling other people "kid" and replying with equally hostile remarks doesn't exactly help your case.

I don't have anything else to say on the seeing faster scan. You think there is only one accurate interpretation, when I think that's ridiculous. If we have a scan of him seeing in bullet time I'll humbly bite my tongue and by you a cake.

I'm being as hostile as I feel necessary, certainly less than other folk are being to me. My case doesn't need help, so I'm not to worried about this. Other people coming across this will see it for what it is - a bored adult arguing with some kids.

Don't try to tell me that I'm not interested in "looking at any evidence that may challenge my opinion",that is a completely baseless and weak assertion.

Then for once in this debate pick an argument I have made concerning a Batman feat being equal to a cap feat and tell me why it isn't.

I'm really confused,because I am not sure if you've been reading what I've been typing this whole time,Muyjingo. We were discussing the bullet feat. I am saying that I disagree with your claims on the feat,your claims about Batman/Cap,and,well,a lot of things.

The bullet feat is one of the things we have been discussing. You've been saying you disagree without ever saying why, aside from vague claims. Which makes it seem like you have no argument.

How about every Cap scan that was discussed by slim or the others? Not exactly anything I've said,but more what they've said.

Exactly, nothing you said. Thank you.

Look above. I am not repeating myself.

Thanks, because then you would just make some vague claim without giving a specific example.

I HIGHLY doubt that they are all PIS. And I didn't see anything convincing to support the claim that they were equals.

Way to focus on the least significant part of the sentence and ignore my point. Followed by a vague claim. Fantastic.

Actually,it is relevant. Because it didn't happen anymore. It's essentially an alternate universe version of the character. They are distinctly and completely different. Are we not using current versions? Or can we cherry pick from both sides (New 52 and Pre-New 52) to our convenience? It's like me using 616 and 1610 Cap feats all the same.

It did happen. It isn't exactly clear what didn't happened, but DC's stance is it happened unless it didn't. You can research that yourself since I won't be replying again.

It's also not an alternative universe version of the character as it's in the same universe just a different timeline. Bruce is physically the same in both timelines.

Because,in my opinion,Cap has superior feats. This is consistent with what I've seen.

Maybe you should read up on what elaborate means. Hint: More than just a sentence.

What does that have to do with anything?Crushing a car is not the focus of the feat or what is impressive. Batman's done the same. The impressive part is falling 200 feet and not showing pain. That is what is impressive. A human cannot fall 200 feet and be unfazed.

Slim was claiming otherwise. Batman has an equivalent feat that I posted at the start of this post, also not showing pain.

But Batman has his suit and Cape. His Cape,in the pre-new 52 universe,has been described as being able to take a "howitzer shell" much to Roy Harper's amazement.

Oh, please. That's nonsense. His cap, especially pre-52 was always getting mangled. Besides, he has several different suits. The one he wears that often is nowhere near that durable.

Cap has armor as well that is also bulletproof, fireproof etc. I think it's desperate to try and say Batman relies on his armor like that but Cap does not.

I don't really think that those are more impressive,but what I think is more impressive and what you think is more impressive is completely irrelevant. Vibranium does not have to exist,because Batman can do that with Nth Metal,or Prometheum. Both exist in DC,not Marvel. Vibranium does not have specific cutting properties,and neither does Cap's shield. It has never been shown or hinted at having such properties on panel. But Batman has not done the same....ever. You cannot claim the feats are the same if they do not involve the same factors. They don't even involve the same objects (not counting shield),so that point is just rubbish and ignores important details that can make all the difference.

Finally, an argument.

You're right, I shouldn't ascribe the feat to vibranium. Batman hasn't done anything literally equivalent, but I think he has done things that are equivalent, i.e. showing the same amount of strength.

Then we get ourselves in a situation where I try to show something equally impressive that Cap doesn't have an equivalent feat for, like hanging on inside a jet engine. No human could do that. What then? It was due to his suit, right?

Just because it's shown once doesn't mean that it's not consistent. If that's the case,A LOT of Batman feats are inconsistent,and are PIS. For example,how often does Batman hang on the outsides of Jets near the engine? How often does he hurl around Manbats? You cannot dismiss everything he says as "highballing" or PIS.

Well, you ignored the question. Cap has never survived 24 seconds in space and Batman has, what does that show?

And yes, I agree it's a PIS feat. See above.

The time apart literally has NOTHING to do with anything if it is still canon,what matters is if he has shown that he has done something similar before.

LOL. Silver age comics were written for entertainment and not taken seriously. If it still matters, then is it valid that Thanos was arrested and taken into custody by the NYPD?

Having a huge gaping wound in your chest that you ripped out is not the same as being impaled with a shovel. Both are impressive,but again,different factors,different situations. One is where a person is hungry,starving,beaten,etc and he is ripping out a HUGE wound in his chest of his own will. Batman was impaled by Ra's in the chest. You seem to be ignoring the important details that add the context and make all the difference.

See my reply to Slim above. But you also seem to be ignoring that Bruce was tired and starved and had already been fighting before being impaled deep in the chest with a shovel, which yes leaves a huge gaping wound.

Didn't he just provide a direct quote?

There is a block of text attributed to him that could have come from anywhere. The original forum it comes from is no longer up.

If you don't understand why that's a problem, then I can show you a different quote by Brubaker where he states Steve is not superhuman, only peak human and physically equal to Batman except for running speed and healing.

Again,saying that others seem like trolls,or claiming that they have a bias or any of that doesn't help your argument at all. I believe that,to the ones providing evidence,that they are doing it and coming to conclusions that are directly supported by the scans. Your evidence for your arguments doesn't seem supported by the scans shown,and the evidence for them seems to be stretching it. Like the bullet feat. I don't think that your conclusion is shown or supported by the scan.

The thing is, my case doesn't need help. I've supported it thoroughly enough, no matter how much you vaguely claim otherwise.

It's funny you specifically chose the bullet feat, a feat I didn't provide an equivalent scan for. The bullet scan is open to interpretation and there is no changing your view that yours is the only correct one. I'd be curious to see why you think a Batman feat I posted isn't equivalent though. I won't reply but I'd be curious to see it.

Except I don't believe that they are equal. And I had an open discussion with a Batfan some time before,and he argued that by feats,Batman can be considered borderline superhuman or directly underneath the mark (and he supported his case well),which is why I basically think that his argument was well supported by the scans. That was his opinion (that I think stands on rational ground),and it's not that I agree with him,it's that I think that it can be argued. This is yours.

It's hard to know what rational ground is if you've never made it there.

Yeah,except that I am considering what you are saying. That is a ridiculous and false claim that is on faulty ground.

Really? I haven't said WHY I disagree? I haven't said that I think that your interpretation of the scan isn't supported and why? Have you a read a single argument of mine??? And when you made a claim,I say why I agree/disagree,and why it is/isn't supported by the evidence.

No, it isn't. You have only made vague claims in the thread. You know what? I'll collect them all and post them for you after this, just for fun :)

He used his wealth to travel the world,did he not? Or did he just board a plane without paying?

You can travel without having wealth, yes. He may have taken a small amount of money, but certainly had no access to any kind of fortune while training.

Krauser is giving you feats (although he's being a bit insulting),Slim is doing it,and you dismiss them as Cap fans with some bias ,and you do the same to me essentially because I disagree with you?!?!'

Krauser doesn't make arguments he just posts scans occasionally and blindly agrees with anyone procap. Slim and I have been having a civil debate the last few posts and you've been continually claiming I haven't supported myself, that my conclusions are not supported without ever saying why. Don't worry, I'll show you in the next post :)

Yes,you gave reasons,and you gave scans,but they DO NOT seem to be supported by the feats,or even by your logic in my opinion. I'm not exactly following any of it,and I don't see any of it stated or supported by scans.

Lol, see. No specifics. I've provided many scans too, which I think is funny. The rest of your post is more of the same.

@krauser99

Liar. You say Batman has also become superhuman.

No, I didn't. I called something he did practically superhuman, and in the other post I paraphrased Slim's argument with Batman to show it was fallacious.

All your estimations are wrong.

They are not estimations and they are not wrong.

I think it's funny that you still think 616 cap is stronger than ultimate cap though. You should ask slim about that.

#121 Posted by MuyJingo (1778 posts) - - Show Bio

And now a collection of posts from twix vaguely dismissing my argument and saying I have not supported my argument, which he denies making.

And can you try to,you know,support your baseless claims (alt accounts...Really? Wow...). Or your nonsensical argument that Batman is just as strong as Steve? Or just as fast? Or just as durable?

Please,I am waiting......Actually,no,I'm not. I don't have time for this.I've come across too many people like this on other forums. You're probably just going to be stubborn,and stick to your ignorant opinion...which is probably just Batbias combined with wishful thinking.

--

@twix_right_side

No you didn't. You just made a ridiculous claim,and failed to support it. That's not the same thing. But by your standards,that really MUST mean that the moon is made out of cheese. And Santa must really be real

--

@twix_right_side

And by the way,I want to see a strength feat of Batman from you. I am NOT discrediting you,I just want to see one.

---

It's like a leap of faith for me to actually believe just ONE of the things that you say regarding Steve and Bruce in their "comparisons". It's almost arbitrary,but that's just my opinion,and I might as well keep it to myself.

---

@twix_right_side

In my honest opinion,it looks quite the opposite. Everyone is supporting their opinion with valid arguments,and your supporting yours with ones that rely on tenuous links and leaps of faith. And in every thread I've seen you in,that trend has remained consistent. It's almost as if you consciously ignore the points,but whatever.

---

I highly doubt it,but forgive my cynicism.

---

Based off of what has always been shown,and what is currently being shown,the things that you're saying seem very inconsistent and poorly supported.

---

@twix_right_side

The evidence doesn't seem very well supported to me....or at least,the support for the claims,but I am not completely done reading,so I must reserve this comment.

---

You made a claim about his superiority a page or two back. You made the claim,thus I am asking you to support it. I cannot say "Batman is stronger than Deathstroke",yet not provide any scans to support a claim that I made.

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@twix_right_side

And I cannot say that your reasoning or the arguments presented are supported by the scans, and seems to be backed by speculative information. It isn't very convincing to me,and it almost requires me to make a leap of faith to believe.

---

@twix_right_side

The point is that I read his responses,read his blog,etc and then see if I agree/disagree with his argument and why. I've already stated that I disagree with his argument,and why that is the case with each one (he didn't).Personally,I don't find his argument to be one (at least,the ones about Cap,not the ones that are exclusively about Batman) supported by the facts,that's my prerogative...

So as you can see, it was said quiet a few times. It's posters like you that are bringing down the quality of this forum and why tg1982 left and why I'm about to follow.

Take that as a victory if you like.

#122 Edited by SlimJ87D (10059 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo:

Batman suit can take a bullet, can take flamethrower fire and his cape has deflected bullets before.

I asked you to show me a durability feat of his BARE SKIN to gauge with Captain America surviving an explosion BARE SKIN, and you cry it's not fair? And you blame it on PIS.

Again, Captain America fell out of a airplane without anything aiding him, he had no parachute or anything and it wasn't just the car roof that got smashed in, he smashed down into the ground way past the windshield wipers and he runs off the car at ground level, doesn't have to hop off of it. This isn't me weaseling myself out of a comparison, this is me showing you actual on panel physics here. You're showing had Batman with a grappling hook land on a car and it denting in a few inches. This doesn't compare.

You want me to share with you the physics behind this too? I can actually give it to you because I just had to do an analysis on it.

https://www.efunda.com/formulae/solid_mechanics/plates/calculators/cpS_PUniform.cfm

Go ahead and play with that if you want, but I don't think I need to point out the obvious.

Batman: Used grappling hook and smashed a car in about 3 inches.

Captain America: Hopped out of airplane, no parachute, smashed car in a few feet.

But if you go through the calculations, I'll give you a hint, Captain America's landing force is 10s of times greater.

And I'll shoot your methods right back at you, show me a consistent peak human that performs a similar feat CONSISTENTLY.

To me, this is 450 lbs

This is 200 lbs. You're not even analyzing the fact that the Man-bat is trying to fly away at the same time bruce is spinning it.

lastly, stop trying to claim that Captain America throws his shield through objects due to the shield being made of vibranium, I just gave you the equation that proves that not true. I tried to do it with a simpler analogy with a diamond and a pitcher throwing it at cardboard.

Good luck on your blog, I honestly give up.

#123 Edited by Twix_Right_Side (2321 posts) - - Show Bio
@muyjingo said:
@slimj87d said:

I am unaware of any Cap fans that dismiss this scan, Gambit fans usually dismiss the feat until they are shown Cap's other durability showings. It's usually a Gambit fan that doesn't know much about Cap.

Lastly, I asked for batman tanking a explosion without the Batsuit to be a comparable feat, otherwise he still has the bullet proof cape, and the other materials protecting him.

Yes, Batman has minimal protection from his Batsuit, just as Cap has protection from his armored suit.

It's ridiculous to try and claim if Batman survives it is due to his suit but if Cap survives it's due to his durability.

An explosion like that should have at the least, had him bleeding.

Anyway, here is a link to one of many threads with people disputing that feat.

Not necessarily. Just because you expect him to bleed doesn't mean that he should based on his durability showings. Your expectations=/= scans and facts

Also,I don't think that anyone said that about Batman and his suit,but his suit does play a large role and is known to protect him.

Wrong, his armor was WHAT blew up.

Exactly. His armor took the brunt, not him. It's a feat for his armor, not him. His armor was the thing that blew up. It was kinetically charged by Gambit. As in,his armor was basically a bomb. It's not really a hard thing to understand,unless you're purposefully trying to misunderstand it.

What details of what diagrams? Captain America's shield weighs 12 lbs, it is blunt as it would slice people to death everytime he bashed people in. The material hardly allows him to throw it through tanks, vehicles, etc. Yet he still,somehow,manages to throw it with enough force to slice them in half. He's done it to multiple aircrafts,he's done it to cars,tanks,etc.So.....

To debunk your feat that Cap landing on a car or leaving impacts in the ground was somehow impressive. It isn't, it's basic physics. Again,that isn't the focus of the feat at all. Landing on a car and leaving a dent from 200 feet up isn't something normal people do. It's like you somehow completely missed that point,and I don't even know how. So no,like other "debunkings" of yours....

In any case, I found an equivalent feat and am curious if you will say it is not equivalent. And I don't see Batman falling 200 feet. The two feats are not he same. I don't even know how you can say that they are the same. It's an unfounded assumption,and it's almost desperate.

And another one, free falling. Not equivalent to the one from the jet but equivalent to other cap feats you posted. Again,not really. This is another silly unfounded assumption of yours.

If you want the equation, it's this.

1/2 * mass of shield * velocity of shield ^2 = Energy penetrated (energy the material received to go through non-linear stress) + 1/2 * mass of shield * velocity of shield after penetration ^2

There is no material hardness in that equation, which is what you are trying to argue. Lead bullets can be softer than steel yet they travel at speeds with a good amount of density to penetrate steel.

This is to do with me saying his feat had more to do with the shield than him?

A lot of the feats you posted were due to the shield more than him. Such as him blocking the heat from a rocket launch with his shield.

I am guessing you are talking about the shield through the truck feat. It is no doubt impressive, and no doubt it cannot be blamed solely on the shield.

But let me ask you this. Do you believe the truck feat consistent? Can you name other feats where he has shown to do anywhere near that much damage with his shield? Do you mean demolishing robots with his shield throws,ripping through machines,tearing tank turrets in half with his shield throw,etc?

The only other one that comes close is throwing his shield at the helicopter tail....but I think that was more to do with the tail spinning over something jammed in it than strength.

---

Let me ask you this. My argument is that Batman and Captain America are phsyical equals except for healing and running speed.

We both agree both men can beat up say 100 guys with guns without issue. They have both done things beyond the capabilities of any human in the real world.

Batman also has some miraculous feats that Cap does not have equivilant scans for. I've been playing catchup trying to show Batman feats close to Cap's feats.

The thing is I could easily post Batman feats more impressive than a lot of these cap fans. What then?

I honestly don't understand how you can say the two are not in the same league and physically equal. Or at the least, that it is not clear that Cap has an advantage over Batman.

Batman has multiple Strength feats that are beyond his capabilities and that I consider PIS, but I could easily paste 10 scans of things Cap, such as cap hanging on inside a jet engine or prying a trunk open under water.

We're talking about Batman swinging around 600 lbs vs Captain America throwing a 100+ lb as high as power lines (20+ ft) demolishing not just one wall, but a second wall and sending out 2 adults (150 lbs). I don't see it as a comparable feat, and lastly I debunked your 600 lb claim. manbats weight 200 lbs. I thought he was talking about all 3 man-bats he was fighting at once. You like databooks don't you? I hope you fix the time to fix that in your blog.

Err, in the panel I posted of Batman swinging around a 600 pound manbat, he states quite clearly that it weighs 600pounds. Did you even look at the feat or just dismiss it confidently?

And he didn't demolish a wall. I don't know why you keep saying that. It's an unfounded assumption.

Hurling around 600 pounds for a longer period of time than it takes to throw 100 pounds 20 feet is more impressive.

I can throw lets say 10 pounds 10 feet. If I can swing 100 pounds around for a minute that's more impressive. It isn't a burst of strength but endured strength.

Fair enough, Cap hasn't had the chance to hang from a jet, and as of right now, I don't' have time to research the times where Bruce has shown a upper limit to his leaping ability.

---

Well, thank you. Just trying to give an example of something cap hasn't done yet is "Superhuman".

I don't' think the feat is equal, because Bruce just had a open wound, Cap has pieces of his body missing. Bruce only fought a few more minutes after his wound and they fell in the pits afterwards, Cap actually went on for hours and traveled miles to only fight Zola and fall 100s of feet off a launching pad.

Do you see the assumption you're making here to discredit the feat?

1. You don't know how long they fought for. It could have been an hour.

2. They DID NOT fall in the pits afterwards.

I agree the feats are not exactly equal, I think they are close enough to show the characters as equal in capabilities.

@twix_right_side

This is the last time I'm replying to you.

@tg1982 called you out on how you were being needlessly antagonistic, then you PMed me to apologize and ask for forgiveness, then you're back to the same stuff here.

You remind me of myself on forums at 16. Aggressive for no reason, feeling I need to prove myself and "win", using words I don't understand but having a heart in the right place and not wanting to make enemies. That seems like you to a tee.

1. None of that is relevant in the slightest.

2. Yeah,that may be accurate about you,but none of that even closely resembles me. It's entirely false. And it's not just that it's false,but that it's completely unfounded and ridiculous. But you seem to be so well at doing that. Honestly,that may have been one of the most desperate things that you've said.

The thing is, you don't have to win this. There isn't anything to win by treating it as a competition. If you treat it as an opportunity, we might come to understand each others views and gain mutual respect for one another. I'd like that.

  1. Yes,I'm the one being antagonistic here....even though you called quite a few people "trolls" and "kids",and you keep talking in a condescending manner. I don't even think I need to point out the hypocrisy here.
  2. That second part is so irrelevant and false. It's,again,another unfounded assumption of yours. Thank god that you aren't a psychologist

Now, let me respond to some of your points.

1. That is what you said. I can quote the sections where you claim exactly that, verbatim. 5. Yes, there is. The subject was dodging bullets. He said he sees faster. That does not mean he sees in bullet time, and it's fanciful for you to assert that. But if you're set in thinking that's the only valid interpretation, then there's no point in banging my head against a brick wall. So the logical assumption is that he sees the weapons drawn,even though there was literally no mention of that? Even though nothing in the scan supports it? It's quite literally a desperate leap of faith in an attempt to dismiss it. "Do you see these assumptions you are making to discredit it?"

8. You're absolutely correct. My point that seems to have eluded you is that it doesn't make sense to take a handful of PIS/standalone non recurring feats and use them to elevate the character. That's what people are doing for Cap, and so I'm doing the same for Batman, to show that I think both characters are equal, even if you highball or lowball their feats, as long as you do it equally for both sides. If we don't lowball any feats from either side, there is a standoff. Except that they aren't PIS when they are done consistently. It's one of the most misused terms on the forum.

The "cap side" is lowballing bat feats and highballing cap feats and I'm doing the opposite. If we just treat every feat as valid without finding reasons to dismiss them, how would the characters not be equal? We don't look at feats in an attempt to dismiss them. We look at feats based on their consistency.

The only way that happens is by starting to make desperate arguments like the batsuit is responsible and not batman etc etc.

9. No, we don't have to by five. It was just a suggestion. Nowhere did I say it was required, it was just an idea to try and improve the debate by having a rule, you know, some consistency and order. it was a SUGGESTION. See how you're being needlessly aggressive by assuming the worst and arguing against it? Because it was a silly suggestion. End of story.

10. Actually, you've shown yourself up here as you contradict yourself. Earlier in the thread that is exactly what you said, that the majority of cap fans agree with you and slim and krauser and I was obviouslly trolling. Now, you correctly note cap fans are in fact divided on the issue. I'm glad. About what? 616 Cap being inferior to 1610? That's what most comic fans,and Cap fans seem to believe (as do I). But if a person wanted to argue the opposite,then they can do so given the feats. If you think that I said that 616 Cap is stronger than 1610 Cap,then go back and show me...please. Because if you think so,reading isn't exactly your strongest area....

12. Cool. Then check out the thread where @slimj87d claims otherwise and argue it with him. I have no idea what you're referring to,but whatever. As I said,this entire argument has gone nowhere,and goes in circles. It's as if you aren't even reading what is said,or that you're consciously ignoring them. I don't think that I disagreed with slim on any matter,but again....reading.

Except that I haven't done that. Not at all. Disagreeing with "evidence" is not the same thing as ignoring it,so that point is out the window.

Except all you made is vague claims. If you truly disagree with something then you should have stated WHY. You can see how foolish you look if you just keep making claims and never stating WHY you disagree, can't 't you? .....Except that you say that everything I said was vague,without stating why. I don't see anything vague in what I'm saying. In fact,it's like you just skimmed over my arguments....

And who decided on this limit? PIS is usually when a character does something that they normally are not shown to do outside of their limits,Cap's superhuman speed is something that isn't exactly new to him. It doesn't have to be shown every 2 years,or 1 year. If that's the case,most comic book feats are "PIS". No one decided on this limit.

You're being daft here, or lost in your anger/determination to win. As above, it was merely a suggestion. So what's so ridiculous about it? And by the way,again,you aren't a psychologist,so stop trying to make baseless assumptions about me. It's desperate.

And yes, feats that are shown very irregularly and are beyond a characters capabilities are PIS. Superman putting out a fire with his breath? Not PIS, and many examples. Superman turning back time (I know it was from a movie, but if you understand the point you don't need to argue it) certainly PIS. Batman hanging on inside a jet engine or walking out of an explosion unscathed? Without a doubt PIS. Except that I think that the plane feat is consistent with what he has shown in the past,but to each his own.

Except I have. One in particular is the "seeing faster" scan. And that's what we were discussing the whole time. And by the way,calling other people "kid" and replying with equally hostile remarks doesn't exactly help your case.

I don't have anything else to say on the seeing faster scan. You think there is only one accurate interpretation, when I think that's ridiculous. If we have a scan of him seeing in bullet time I'll humbly bite my tongue and by you a cake. Actually,not really. It's just that other interpretations that I've heard have,so far,been idiotic and barely supported. If we actually have any support of him seeing the gun before it's fired,then I'll do the same.

I'm being as hostile as I feel necessary, certainly less than other folk are being to me. My case doesn't need help, so I'm not to worried about this. Other people coming across this will see it for what it is - a bored adult arguing with some kids. That's called being a hypocrite. So stop trying to complain about how hostile people are being to you when you do the same. And if that's how you dismiss a person's arguments,by immaturely calling them "kids" (obvious irony and common flaw when people say that),then I'm just wasting time here.

Don't try to tell me that I'm not interested in "looking at any evidence that may challenge my opinion",that is a completely baseless and weak assertion.

Then for once in this debate pick an argument I have made concerning a Batman feat being equal to a cap feat and tell me why it isn't. That's what we were doing -______-

I'm really confused,because I am not sure if you've been reading what I've been typing this whole time,Muyjingo. We were discussing the bullet feat. I am saying that I disagree with your claims on the feat,your claims about Batman/Cap,and,well,a lot of things.

The bullet feat is one of the things we have been discussing. You've been saying you disagree without ever saying why, aside from vague claims. Which makes it seem like you have no argument.

.......That was almost a sad attempt at dismissing my argument. Along with that entire "vague points" BS. Reason? Because you haven't told me why it was vague,what was vague,etc....and you seemed to understand it perfectly when you made your replies. And really? I have no argument?

How about every Cap scan that was discussed by slim or the others? Not exactly anything I've said,but more what they've said.

Exactly, nothing you said. Thank you. Relevance? The scans were presented.

Look above. I am not repeating myself.

Thanks, because then you would just make some vague claim without giving a specific example. For some reason,I believe that you're just dodging now....

I HIGHLY doubt that they are all PIS. And I didn't see anything convincing to support the claim that they were equals.

Way to focus on the least significant part of the sentence and ignore my point. Followed by a vague claim. Fantastic. Yes. Because just about everything I say is a vague claim according to you,so I'm not going to waste any more effort or time doing that because it's almost like you're trying to not understand what I'm saying.....but I guess it's the same way that I was "not considering your argument". Desperate claims.....

Actually,it is relevant. Because it didn't happen anymore. It's essentially an alternate universe version of the character. They are distinctly and completely different. Are we not using current versions? Or can we cherry pick from both sides (New 52 and Pre-New 52) to our convenience? It's like me using 616 and 1610 Cap feats all the same.

It did happen. It isn't exactly clear what didn't happened, but DC's stance is it happened unless it didn't. You can research that yourself since I won't be replying again.Actually,I want support of that. You know,just like you expect other people to support their arguments (which is a common standard)? Like when you wanted slim to support the brubaker thing? I thought that it was,unless it was stated/referenced to happen,then we cannot assume so? "It happened unless it didn't" almost makes the scans irrelevant since it may not have gone down like that.

It's also not an alternative universe version of the character as it's in the same universe just a different timeline. Bruce is physically the same in both timelines.

Because,in my opinion,Cap has superior feats. This is consistent with what I've seen.

Maybe you should read up on what elaborate means. Hint: More than just a sentence.

Oh my god,it's like talking to a brick wall.

............

What does that have to do with anything?Crushing a car is not the focus of the feat or what is impressive. Batman's done the same. The impressive part is falling 200 feet and not showing pain. That is what is impressive. A human cannot fall 200 feet and be unfazed.

Slim was claiming otherwise. Batman has an equivalent feat that I posted at the start of this post, also not showing pain. The feats are not the same. They do not have the same factors involved. Not even close.

But Batman has his suit and Cape. His Cape,in the pre-new 52 universe,has been described as being able to take a "howitzer shell" much to Roy Harper's amazement.

Oh, please. That's nonsense. His cap, especially pre-52 was always getting mangled. Besides, he has several different suits. The one he wears that often is nowhere near that durable. Except that it's shown to deflect bullets before (for example,look at his new 52 Batman respect thread).

My mistake,the howitzer thing was what Roy said,and Bats' simply corrected him.

Cap has armor as well that is also bulletproof, fireproof etc. I think it's desperate to try and say Batman relies on his armor like that but Cap does not. Why is it desperate? That's like chalking up every Deathstroke durability feat as being due to his armor just because Batman does (not saying he does,but just setting an example/image). In terms of not getting bullets through him,that's all Cap's armor does. It doesn't absorb shock or anything like that. It has never been shown or stated to,while Batman's has been stated to offer him sophisticated protection.

I don't really think that those are more impressive,but what I think is more impressive and what you think is more impressive is completely irrelevant. Vibranium does not have to exist,because Batman can do that with Nth Metal,or Prometheum. Both exist in DC,not Marvel. Vibranium does not have specific cutting properties,and neither does Cap's shield. It has never been shown or hinted at having such properties on panel. But Batman has not done the same....ever. You cannot claim the feats are the same if they do not involve the same factors. They don't even involve the same objects (not counting shield),so that point is just rubbish and ignores important details that can make all the difference.

Finally, an argument.

You're right, I shouldn't ascribe the feat to vibranium. Batman hasn't done anything literally equivalent, but I think he has done things that are equivalent, i.e. showing the same amount of strength.

Then we get ourselves in a situation where I try to show something equally impressive that Cap doesn't have an equivalent feat for, like hanging on inside a jet engine. No human could do that. What then? It was due to his suit, right? That last part is in no way relevant,and it's almost taken out of context. Great job,mate.

And they aren't going to be written with interchangeable feats,or feats that are similar. That's almost impossible to expect.

Just because it's shown once doesn't mean that it's not consistent. If that's the case,A LOT of Batman feats are inconsistent,and are PIS. For example,how often does Batman hang on the outsides of Jets near the engine? How often does he hurl around Manbats? You cannot dismiss everything he says as "highballing" or PIS.

Well, you ignored the question. Cap has never survived 24 seconds in space and Batman has, what does that show? ....It's funny that you say that I make vague claims....

And yes, I agree it's a PIS feat. See above.

The time apart literally has NOTHING to do with anything if it is still canon,what matters is if he has shown that he has done something similar before.

LOL. Silver age comics were written for entertainment and not taken seriously. If it still matters, then is it valid that Thanos was arrested and taken into custody by the NYPD? That doesn't mean that silver age stories don't have out of character showings (Thanos thing you mentioned),or PIS involved as well. Does that mean that modern comics don't have those as well? So do we dismiss modern comic feats as well? Is every silver age feat dismissed,no matter how consistent? What you did was almost quite literally showing a "low showing" just to support your argument.

Having a huge gaping wound in your chest that you ripped out is not the same as being impaled with a shovel. Both are impressive,but again,different factors,different situations. One is where a person is hungry,starving,beaten,etc and he is ripping out a HUGE wound in his chest of his own will. Batman was impaled by Ra's in the chest. You seem to be ignoring the important details that add the context and make all the difference.

See my reply to Slim above. But you also seem to be ignoring that Bruce was tired and starved and had already been fighting before being impaled deep in the chest with a shovel, which yes leaves a huge gaping wound.. Again,the same factors are not involved,and are nowhere even close. In fact,the wounds weren't even the same size. Again,ignoring important details to try and chalk them up as the same.

Didn't he just provide a direct quote?

There is a block of text attributed to him that could have come from anywhere. The original forum it comes from is no longer up.

If you don't understand why that's a problem, then I can show you a different quote by Brubaker where he states Steve is not superhuman, only peak human and physically equal to Batman except for running speed and healing.

Again,saying that others seem like trolls,or claiming that they have a bias or any of that doesn't help your argument at all. I believe that,to the ones providing evidence,that they are doing it and coming to conclusions that are directly supported by the scans. Your evidence for your arguments doesn't seem supported by the scans shown,and the evidence for them seems to be stretching it. Like the bullet feat. I don't think that your conclusion is shown or supported by the scan.

The thing is, my case doesn't need help. I've supported it thoroughly enough, no matter how much you vaguely claim otherwise. You are right,you have supported it....but your "support" is actually desperate. It's tenuous. It's like me trying to dismiss every Spider-man strength feat in an attempt at trying to say that Batman and Spider-man are physical equals. That was a rough comparison,but you get the idea. So....your case is pretty much as "thoroughly" supported by the facts as saying that the moon is made out of cheese,or that Santa Claus exists....the leap of faith is too great for each of your "support".

It's funny you specifically chose the bullet feat, a feat I didn't provide an equivalent scan for. The bullet scan is open to interpretation and there is no changing your view that yours is the only correct one. I'd be curious to see why you think a Batman feat I posted isn't equivalent though. I won't reply but I'd be curious to see it.

You may gladly go see,once you stop throwing names,and you actually keep relevance :)

And no,it isn't. Unless there is actually an interpretation that is actually supported by the facts. And the reason that I chose it is not relevant -__-

Except I don't believe that they are equal. And I had an open discussion with a Batfan some time before,and he argued that by feats,Batman can be considered borderline superhuman or directly underneath the mark (and he supported his case well),which is why I basically think that his argument was well supported by the scans. That was his opinion (that I think stands on rational ground),and it's not that I agree with him,it's that I think that it can be argued. This is yours.

It's hard to know what rational ground is if you've never made it there. That was almost too pathetic. But again,considering that not a single thing has penetrated ,who am I to say? After all,I'm just an aggressive kid,right? Or was it a Cap fan? Well...at least,according to you (not with the facts,but that isn't really new). That was about as relevant as calling me an Alien Warlord from another dimension.

Yeah,except that I am considering what you are saying. That is a ridiculous and false claim that is on faulty ground.

Really? I haven't said WHY I disagree? I haven't said that I think that your interpretation of the scan isn't supported and why? Have you a read a single argument of mine??? And when you made a claim,I say why I agree/disagree,and why it is/isn't supported by the evidence.

No, it isn't. You have only made vague claims in the thread. You know what? I'll collect them all and post them for you after this, just for fun :) Again,it's like I'm bashing my head into a brick wall....

:) <-----(inserts fake smiley to pretend that things are civil)

He used his wealth to travel the world,did he not? Or did he just board a plane without paying?

You can travel without having wealth, yes. He may have taken a small amount of money, but certainly had no access to any kind of fortune while training. And Cap could never do that because he was poor.

Krauser is giving you feats (although he's being a bit insulting),Slim is doing it,and you dismiss them as Cap fans with some bias ,and you do the same to me essentially because I disagree with you?!?!'

Krauser doesn't make arguments he just posts scans occasionally and blindly agrees with anyone procap. Slim and I have been having a civil debate the last few posts and you've been continually claiming I haven't supported myself, that my conclusions are not supported without ever saying why. Don't worry, I'll show you in the next post :)

.....so you've claimed,like,what,5 times that I make vague claims and don't explain why? Except the funny part is that I have,so I doubt that you've done anything other than skim over what I've said. As I said,I'm not repeating myself.

Yes,you gave reasons,and you gave scans,but they DO NOT seem to be supported by the feats,or even by your logic in my opinion. I'm not exactly following any of it,and I don't see any of it stated or supported by scans.

Lol, see. No specifics. I've provided many scans too, which I think is funny. The rest of your post is more of the same.

It's referring to your arguments in general. For example,the Gambit one,The Car hood being crushed,the---just forget it. This has honestly gone nowhere. It's like you barely addressed much of what I said,and everything slim and the others say you dismiss or you make some sort of comparison as to them being equals,when the factors are completely different (The Car Hood being damaged). This has honestly gone nowhere,and it's like I am ramming my head into a brick wall in this back-forth argument. I knew that I wasn't even going to be able to convince you anyway,since nothing they said would be able to....this has honestly been an unproductive use of my time,and as I said,it's better to agree to disagree...because NOTHING I say,or anything anyone says in this thread,will convince you because you are trying WAY too hard to make them seem as equals. Put simply,your "facts" and reasoning is hardly supported by what is actually shown,and is just a ridiculous,wishful interpretation of what is actually shown in the scan(s). You are quite literally being stubborn and pushing the assertion that they are physical equals. But at the same time,you've probably deluded yourself into thinking that everyone shares your view....

@krauser99

Liar. You say Batman has also become superhuman.

No, I didn't. I called something he did practically superhuman, and in the other post I paraphrased Slim's argument with Batman to show it was fallacious.

All your estimations are wrong.

They are not estimations and they are not wrong.

I think it's funny that you still think 616 cap is stronger than ultimate cap though. You should ask slim about that.

@frozen said:

@slimj87d: Just ignore him, he clearly isn't listening to reason.

I think I just might take that advice,because this has been a HUGE waste of my time. I'm almost convinced that no one read my argument,so I just give up. I honestly give up. His argument mainly consists of calling every feat that doesn't fit his personal standards and expectations for the character as PIS,while unfairly comparing feats by ignoring factors to fit his view (not even counting how he throws around names and such,while telling others not to do the same thing). Not only that,but,it's like he doesn't even try to listen to what other people say (well,so long as it doesn't contradict his views). He is free to his views,but his view basically is supported by nothing but the conclusion,and the feats are simply half-truths that he bends to fit his view.

And now a collection of posts from twix vaguely dismissing my argument and saying I have not supported my argument, which he denies making.

@twix_right_side said:

And can you try to,you know,support your baseless claims (alt accounts...Really? Wow...). Or your nonsensical argument that Batman is just as strong as Steve? Or just as fast? Or just as durable?

Please,I am waiting......Actually,no,I'm not. I don't have time for this.I've come across too many people like this on other forums. You're probably just going to be stubborn,and stick to your ignorant opinion...which is probably just Batbias combined with wishful thinking.

--

I don't understand what's so vague or hard to understand about any of that,but okay....

@twix_right_side

No you didn't. You just made a ridiculous claim,and failed to support it. That's not the same thing. But by your standards,that really MUST mean that the moon is made out of cheese. And Santa must really be real

--

Again,I'm not sure what's hard to explain. You made a claim about their physical abilities,and,as it says here,fails to support it. But I guess I should actually say that it's poorly supported by the evidence,rather than just speculation. You know,like those claims about me that were nothing but conjecture. Which ones? Every one of them.

@twix_right_side

And by the way,I want to see a strength feat of Batman from you. I am NOT discrediting you,I just want to see one.

---

It's like a leap of faith for me to actually believe just ONE of the things that you say regarding Steve and Bruce in their "comparisons". It's almost arbitrary,but that's just my opinion,and I might as well keep it to myself.

---

Again,nothing hard to understand. I actually wonder if you're purposely trying to misunderstand them (if at all). I don't understand where your confusion lies,so I guess that we have that in common.

@twix_right_side

In my honest opinion,it looks quite the opposite. Everyone is supporting their opinion with valid arguments,and your supporting yours with ones that rely on tenuous links and leaps of faith. And in every thread I've seen you in,that trend has remained consistent. It's almost as if you consciously ignore the points,but whatever.

---

I highly doubt it,but forgive my cynicism.

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Based off of what has always been shown,and what is currently being shown,the things that you're saying seem very inconsistent and poorly supported.

---

@twix_right_side

The evidence doesn't seem very well supported to me....or at least,the support for the claims,but I am not completely done reading,so I must reserve this comment.

---

You made a claim about his superiority a page or two back. You made the claim,thus I am asking you to support it. I cannot say "Batman is stronger than Deathstroke",yet not provide any scans to support a claim that I made.

---Wtf was so hard to understand about that?? Usually in a debate,you provide evidence for any claim that you make.....

@twix_right_side

And I cannot say that your reasoning or the arguments presented are supported by the scans, and seems to be backed by speculative information. It isn't very convincing to me,and it almost requires me to make a leap of faith to believe.

---

@twix_right_side

The point is that I read his responses,read his blog,etc and then see if I agree/disagree with his argument and why. I've already stated that I disagree with his argument,and why that is the case with each one (he didn't).Personally,I don't find his argument to be one (at least,the ones about Cap,not the ones that are exclusively about Batman) supported by the facts,that's my prerogative...

So as you can see, it was said quiet a few times. It's posters like you that are bringing down the quality of this forum and why tg1982 left and why I'm about to follow. Please,by all means. No one is holding you back. I mean,it's not like you:

  • Accuse me of having a bias based off of,well,nothing really valid. Basically because I agreed with others rather than with you,and thought that I was dismissing your argument in spite. It seems that you like to label those that disagree with you as "Cap fans",and you seem to like claiming that a lot of people that disagree with you are Cap fans,or that they have some sort of bias..... Well,I guess most comic fans have a bias,because I see most people (comic fans and non-comic fans alike) admit that Captain America is physically superior. You haven't convinced of any reason as to why he isn't.....
  • Call me and others "trolls" and "kids",right after you complain about how I'm "bringing down the quality of the forums" and try to complain about the behavior of other users and insults. Hardly anything I said was "vague" (which apparently to you,most everything I said was vague),but at the same time,you never explained what was so hard to understand about them. I mean,it's like I am literally talking into thin air,because nothing that I'm saying seems to be getting through. In some cases (like the collection of "vague things" that I've said,or any of the other things you've called vague),it's like you didn't even try to understand them.
  • I don't know if you thought that you were a psychologist or something,but apparently you tried to do some sort of analysis on me (hint: it wasn't anywhere close to accurate) and it was nothing but conjecture. Good job keeping relevance to my points,though....isn't that something you told me?
  • Everything presented to you has been dismissed in some way or another,so I'm not going to even bother. It's like you were making a desperate attempt at trying to dismiss them each time. Nothing that,well,anyone said has gotten through,and hardly any of what I've been saying has been payed attention to (clearly),so I give up.
  • Your arguments for them being "physical equals" based on feats is stretching,and relies mainly on speculation to lowball a feat (or just calling it PIS despite their consistency), or involves you ignoring the factors involved and just saying that they're the same. They are hardly supported by any of the scans in my opinion. However,I doubt you were able to pick up on the fact that I was generally speaking,since that is usually what is meant to be assumed. But again,agree to disagree,becausethis has literally gone nowhere (and you already said that you were not replying anymore,so I guess that I'm wasting my time anyway considering how this "debate" of yours is just one big stretch). It's not supported by the facts,it's just wishful thinking that you are telling everyone that is a fact. You seem to be one of the only people I've seen with this view,meanwhile most others claim otherwise.

But it's not like you are leaving anyway.

Take that as a victory if you like.

#125 Posted by tg1982 (2715 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

You're the only one that argues this, I've never seen anyone else try and deny that Captain America has ran at 60 MPH. @tg1982, defend your friend here. You said he debates fairly.

First, I want to apologize for the lateness of my reply, I hardly ever come on these boards anymore. Now to get right to it...I don't think @muyjingo is denying that Cap can run at 60mph, the question is can he do it consistently? To my knowledge he's only done it twice (at least specifically stated), once when Bucky was shot and Cap even stated only when he has to... the second was from a bird that was said to have a top speed of 50mph. I'm not even going to comment on scan with Bucky saying "You've been running a mile a minute since..." due to the fact that it's just a figure of speech, not something to be taken literally. I'd like to think of you as my friend too, but in some instances we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Just like I disagree with @muyjingo about Cap's statement about how he's able to dodge bullets, I believe he does mean he can see faster than bullets. But we agree to disagree on it. I wish I knew the topic where we (muyjingo and I) had our debate about this...it really was a good debate...

#126 Posted by Twix_Right_Side (2321 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

#127 Posted by cameron83 (7421 posts) - - Show Bio

Well...this is an interesting thread.