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#51 Posted by Wolverine08 (46009 posts) - - Show Bio

Without doubt they are superhuman.

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#52 Posted by SlimJ87D (11029 posts) - - Show Bio

Steve without a doubt is super human. A person that is around the peak of man is Bucky, yet he tells us that Steve is easily 3 times all his physicals.

Bucky knows Steve well, he's seen 3 to 4 years of Steve's feats on daily basis.

And if Cap running at 60 MPH doesn't prove he's superhuman to anyone here... then you must be blind unless if you can explain why running at 60 MPH is not a superhuman feat.

#53 Posted by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (5488 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes

#54 Posted by Farkam (5382 posts) - - Show Bio

In comicbookland supposedly normal human heroes do some pretty cray sh*t themselves. So peak humans seem superhuman, while normal humans seem peak human. Using real life standards, yes, he is superhuman.

#55 Posted by Wolverine08 (46009 posts) - - Show Bio

@farkam said:

In comicbookland supposedly normal human heroes do some pretty cray sh*t themselves. So peak humans seem superhuman, while normal humans seem peak human. Using real life standards, yes, he is superhuman.

Captain America is superhuman by comic book standards as well. Comic book peak humans can't run at 60 MPH casually. Comic book humans can't throw a shield so hard that it decapitates and turns over 16-20 ton tank turrets. Comic book peak humans brains dont' work so fast that bullets look live they are moving in slow motion to them after they have been fired. Comic book peak humans can't be throw by a class 100+ into a bullet proof 40 tonner and not go splat.

Steve's physical feats are just plain superhuman even in comic land.

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#56 Edited by Farkam (5382 posts) - - Show Bio

@farkam said:

In comicbookland supposedly normal human heroes do some pretty cray sh*t themselves. So peak humans seem superhuman, while normal humans seem peak human. Using real life standards, yes, he is superhuman.

Captain America is superhuman by comic book standards as well. Comic book peak humans can't run at 60 MPH casually. Comic book humans can't throw a shield so hard that it decapitates and turns over 16-20 ton tank turrets. Comic book peak humans brains dont' work so fast that bullets look live they are moving in slow motion to them after they have been fired. Comic book peak humans can't be throw by a class 100+ into a bullet proof 40 tonner and not go splat.

Steve's physical feats are just plain superhuman even in comic land.

Alright then, fair enough.

#57 Posted by Wolverine08 (46009 posts) - - Show Bio

@farkam said:

@wolverine08 said:

@farkam said:

In comicbookland supposedly normal human heroes do some pretty cray sh*t themselves. So peak humans seem superhuman, while normal humans seem peak human. Using real life standards, yes, he is superhuman.

Captain America is superhuman by comic book standards as well. Comic book peak humans can't run at 60 MPH casually. Comic book humans can't throw a shield so hard that it decapitates and turns over 16-20 ton tank turrets. Comic book peak humans brains dont' work so fast that bullets look live they are moving in slow motion to them after they have been fired. Comic book peak humans can't be throw by a class 100+ into a bullet proof 40 tonner and not go splat.

Steve's physical feats are just plain superhuman even in comic land.

Alright then, fair enough.

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#58 Posted by Twix_Right_Side (2375 posts) - - Show Bio

@farkam said:

In comicbookland supposedly normal human heroes do some pretty cray sh*t themselves. So peak humans seem superhuman, while normal humans seem peak human. Using real life standards, yes, he is superhuman.

Captain America is superhuman by comic book standards as well. Comic book peak humans can't run at 60 MPH casually. Comic book humans can't throw a shield so hard that it decapitates and turns over 16-20 ton tank turrets. Comic book peak humans brains dont' work so fast that bullets look live they are moving in slow motion to them after they have been fired. Comic book peak humans can't be throw by a class 100+ into a bullet proof 40 tonner and not go splat.

Steve's physical feats are just plain superhuman even in comic land.

Can I,like,build you a statue or something?

#59 Posted by Wolverine08 (46009 posts) - - Show Bio
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#60 Posted by Twix_Right_Side (2375 posts) - - Show Bio
#61 Posted by MuyJingo (2263 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

Steve without a doubt is super human. A person that is around the peak of man is Bucky, yet he tells us that Steve is easily 3 times all his physicals.

Bucky knows Steve well, he's seen 3 to 4 years of Steve's feats on daily basis.

And if Cap running at 60 MPH doesn't prove he's superhuman to anyone here... then you must be blind unless if you can explain why running at 60 MPH is not a superhuman feat.

I agree. But, by the same logic, Batman has also become superhuman. I mean, his feats more than show it.

Benchpressing 600 pounds after being tied in a straight jacket, dehydrated and tortured only to fight after doing so? Pretty Superhuman.

Getting smacked into skyscrapers and clocktowers and after with having the strength, the superhuman strength, to hold on inside a jet engine?

If that doesn't prove he is superhuman to anyone here...then you must be blind unless if you can explain why the aforementioned is not a superhuman feat.

#62 Posted by MuyJingo (2263 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America is superhuman by comic book standards as well. Comic book peak humans can't run at 60 MPH casually. Comic book humans can't throw a shield so hard that it decapitates and turns over 16-20 ton tank turrets. Comic book peak humans brains dont' work so fast that bullets look live they are moving in slow motion to them after they have been fired. Comic book peak humans can't be throw by a class 100+ into a bullet proof 40 tonner and not go splat.

Steve's physical feats are just plain superhuman even in comic land.

He was stated to run at 60mph only once. What makes you think he casually runs at that speed? Since it was only shown once, what makes you think it wasn't an isolated incident?

Cap said he "sees faster", which is open to interpretation. Has he ever been shown seeing bullets in bullet time?

#63 Posted by Wolverine08 (46009 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:
@wolverine08 said:

Captain America is superhuman by comic book standards as well. Comic book peak humans can't run at 60 MPH casually. Comic book humans can't throw a shield so hard that it decapitates and turns over 16-20 ton tank turrets. Comic book peak humans brains dont' work so fast that bullets look live they are moving in slow motion to them after they have been fired. Comic book peak humans can't be throw by a class 100+ into a bullet proof 40 tonner and not go splat.

Steve's physical feats are just plain superhuman even in comic land.

He was stated to run at 60mph only once. What makes you think he casually runs at that speed? Since it was only shown once, what makes you think it wasn't an isolated incident?

Cap said he "sees faster", which is open to interpretation. Has he ever been shown seeing bullets in bullet time?

No, he's been shown or stated to be able run at speeds near or at 60 MPH per hour two other times.

He said he"sees faster." What else does someone do when they are seeing things faster than averagd? Your brain processes auditory information for you, for Steve to be seeing things faster than that of a normal human his brain needs to be functioning at a faster rate than that of a normal human. Ergo, something a non metahuman wouldn't be able to do.

I haven't even touched on the fact that comic book peak humans can't recover at the rate Captain America does like when he does stuff like getting his leg smashed in half by a 40 ton John Steele and heals after a couple of moments.

You also forget to touch on the fact that Steve's consistent durability feats are unreplicable by comic book peak humans as well.

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#64 Edited by MuyJingo (2263 posts) - - Show Bio

No, he's been shown or stated to be able run at speeds near or at 60 MPH per hour two other times.


Heh. The first 2 are from a silver age comic where he is running at 50mph. I don't think silver age comics are a good source as they were written primarily for entertainment, (i.e. Thanos being handcuffed by the NYPD). So that's 2 incidents where his running speed is stated, as you won't find more than that. Hardly consistant, given that they are what, 40 years apart?

The third is a figure of speech. I won't have the same argument again on here, as it's a waste of time, but basically that guy is saying Steve has been BUSY. That's what it means when someone says you've been running a mile a minute. It's not a double entendre and it isn't meant to be taken literally. It's a sign of desperation to even include that scan.

He said he"sees faster." What else does someone do when they are seeing things faster than averagd? Your brain processes auditory information for you, for Steve to be seeing things faster than that of a normal human his brain needs to be functioning at a faster rate than that of a normal human. Ergo, something a non metahuman wouldn't be able to do.

That's one interpretation. I see it as he has is trained to the point where he can see someone reaching for a gun and firing, not that he sees the bullets coming at him, has time to react and then dodge them.

I haven't even touched on the fact that comic book peak humans can't recover at the rate Captain America does like when he does stuff like getting his leg smashed in half by a 40 ton John Steele and heals after a couple of moments.

You also forget to touch on the fact that Steve's consistent durability feats are unreplicable by comic book peak humans as well.

I disagree that other peak human feats don't match Steve's feats. I made a blog showing Batman matching or exceeding Cap's most famous feats. Even then, I'm sure it's easy to find PIS feats for Daredevil, Punisher, etc.

Getting smacked around by a super powered being is pretty standard fare for a lot of "peak humans". Not trying to claim Steve is peak, merely stating showing him getting smacked around by more powerful people doesn't prove anything.

#65 Edited by SlimJ87D (11029 posts) - - Show Bio
@wolverine08 said:

@muyjingo said:
@wolverine08 said:

Captain America is superhuman by comic book standards as well. Comic book peak humans can't run at 60 MPH casually. Comic book humans can't throw a shield so hard that it decapitates and turns over 16-20 ton tank turrets. Comic book peak humans brains dont' work so fast that bullets look live they are moving in slow motion to them after they have been fired. Comic book peak humans can't be throw by a class 100+ into a bullet proof 40 tonner and not go splat.

Steve's physical feats are just plain superhuman even in comic land.

He was stated to run at 60mph only once. What makes you think he casually runs at that speed? Since it was only shown once, what makes you think it wasn't an isolated incident?

Cap said he "sees faster", which is open to interpretation. Has he ever been shown seeing bullets in bullet time?

No, he's been shown or stated to be able run at speeds near or at 60 MPH per hour two other times.

He said he"sees faster." What else does someone do when they are seeing things faster than averagd? Your brain processes auditory information for you, for Steve to be seeing things faster than that of a normal human his brain needs to be functioning at a faster rate than that of a normal human. Ergo, something a non metahuman wouldn't be able to do.

I haven't even touched on the fact that comic book peak humans can't recover at the rate Captain America does like when he does stuff like getting his leg smashed in half by a 40 ton John Steele and heals after a couple of moments.

You also forget to touch on the fact that Steve's consistent durability feats are unreplicable by comic book peak humans as well.

Actually 3 times, don't forget Ed Brubaker's run. And don't bother addressing Muyjingo till you see his thread where Veshark and I bombarded him with logic he couldn't counter.

#66 Posted by Wolverine08 (46009 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: Ahhhhhh, that's true man. Thanks for the correction.

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#67 Posted by SlimJ87D (11029 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@wolverine08 said:

No, he's been shown or stated to be able run at speeds near or at 60 MPH per hour two other times.


Heh. The first 2 are from a silver age comic where he is running at 50mph. I don't think silver age comics are a good source as they were written primarily for entertainment, (i.e. Thanos being handcuffed by the NYPD). So that's 2 incidents where his running speed is stated, as you won't find more than that. Hardly consistant, given that they are what, 40 years apart?

The third is a figure of speech. I won't have the same argument again on here, as it's a waste of time, but basically that guy is saying Steve has been BUSY. That's what it means when someone says you've been running a mile a minute. It's not a double entendre and it isn't meant to be taken literally. It's a sign of desperation to even include that scan.

He said he"sees faster." What else does someone do when they are seeing things faster than averagd? Your brain processes auditory information for you, for Steve to be seeing things faster than that of a normal human his brain needs to be functioning at a faster rate than that of a normal human. Ergo, something a non metahuman wouldn't be able to do.

That's one interpretation. I see it as he has is trained to the point where he can see someone reaching for a gun and firing, not that he sees the bullets coming at him, has time to react and then dodge them.

I haven't even touched on the fact that comic book peak humans can't recover at the rate Captain America does like when he does stuff like getting his leg smashed in half by a 40 ton John Steele and heals after a couple of moments.

You also forget to touch on the fact that Steve's consistent durability feats are unreplicable by comic book peak humans as well.

I disagree that other peak human feats don't match Steve's feats. I made a blog showing Batman matching or exceeding Cap's most famous feats. Even then, I'm sure it's easy to find PIS feats for Daredevil, Punisher, etc.

Getting smacked around by a super powered being is pretty standard fare for a lot of "peak humans". Not trying to claim Steve is peak, merely stating showing him getting smacked around by more powerful people doesn't prove anything.

LMAO, you mean that blog where you BSed Batman's feats to match Steve's? I still remember that blog, where I showed you a feat of Steve falling 50+ stories without injury, and you tried to show a scan of batman gliding, using his grappling hook and landing without damage to say it was an equal feat.

#68 Posted by SlimJ87D (11029 posts) - - Show Bio
#69 Posted by Wolverine08 (46009 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: Haha, Steve appreciates your commitment soldier!

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#70 Posted by MuyJingo (2263 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@wolverine08 said:

@slimj87d: Ahhhhhh, that's true man. Thanks for the correction.

Here you go, one of the worst debates I had to ever endure.

http://www.comicvine.com/captain-america/4005-1442/forums/so-cap-isn-t-a-superhuman-but-is-he-enhanced-or-pe-1452472/?page=3

No, I mean a blog I made a few days ago. You can see it in my profile and it's in this forum as well.

You won't get much out of reading it, since I'm just elaborating on the same arguments I've made to you previously.

There's really no point in arguing with fanatics though. I mean, you don't understand what a double enterre is and tried to use a figure of speech as evidence that Steve can run consistently at 60mph. You had other amusing arguments, but none so ridiculous as that. I just got tired of arguing these points with people who are clearly one sided and go to such great lengths to exaggerate Cap's feats.

The blog I made a few days ago address the same tired old arguments and it's my final say on the matter. Of course, it's still fun to talk about, just not worth debating it.

While you're on the board though, since you are considered by some to be a cap expert, can you give your opinion on if Ultimate Cap is physically superior to 616 Cap or not? I've seen you and many other cap fans say that he was but would appreciate some clarification as some other posters told me I was being ridiculous for thinking that.

#71 Posted by MuyJingo (2263 posts) - - Show Bio
@slimj87d said:

Actually 3 times, don't forget Ed Brubaker's run. And don't bother addressing Muyjingo till you see his thread where Veshark and I bombarded him with logic he couldn't counter.

I'm sorry, what?

First of all, IIRC, you're studying engineering, so you should be ashamed for thinking your arguments even remotely resembled anything logical.

Your "logic" was based on extremely selective and biased interpretations not supported by evidence.

  1. Trying to argue a figure of speech should be taken literally because it was a double entendre, which it wasn't.
  2. Trying to argue a Talon had his wingsuit out when it was fighting with Bruce and they were freefalling. Your argument for this was a glint in the talons armpit, which is what all talons have even if the wingsuit isn't out. The wingspan is at least 3 feet in diameter and it is clearly not extended during the fall.
  3. Trying to argue that the Lazarus pits healed Bruce after he was stabbed with a shovel in a chest. They were near them, but that doesn't mean they get instantly healed.
  4. A reliance on silver age feats to try and argue consistency. If something is consistent, there should be many modern feats, yet you often rely on feats from an age where Thanos was arrested by the NYPD and sexism and racism were the norm.
  5. Many of your claims for Cap are actually due to his shield, not him.
  6. Coming up with amusing ways/assumptions to discredit Batman's feats. He's taken hits from god level entities, taken more physical damage than cap, has better strength feats than Cap...yet you find a way to dismiss them while clinging to your silver age feats as somehow valid.
  7. They're just the ones I recall, but I'm sure there's plenty more. In fact, I'll address vesharks comments tomorrow. I probably won't respond to yours as...well...you've shown it's futile.

It's hypocritical, and shows just how prone to confirmation bias you are. Honestly, it's like trying to explain the basic theory of evolution to a religious fanatic.

The thing is, I don't even have a dog in this race. I don't dislike Cap. I don't read his comic but I've read him in cross over events and enjoyed his movies. I just think it's ridiculous to say that he is superhuman. If I do have a dog in this race it isn't that Batman is better than Cap, it's just that Cap isn't that much ahead of batman -- they are physically equal in my book due to feats.

Some people can't even accept that possibility and need Cap to be 10 times better or their world falls apart.

#72 Edited by SlimJ87D (11029 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:
@slimj87d said:

Actually 3 times, don't forget Ed Brubaker's run. And don't bother addressing Muyjingo till you see his thread where Veshark and I bombarded him with logic he couldn't counter.

I'm sorry, what?

First of all, IIRC, you're studying engineering, so you should be ashamed for thinking your arguments even remotely resembled anything logical.

Your "logic" was based on extremely selective and biased interpretations not supported by evidence.

  1. Trying to argue a figure of speech should be taken literally because it was a double entendre, which it wasn't.
  2. Trying to argue a Talon had his wingsuit out when it was fighting with Bruce and they were freefalling. Your argument for this was a glint in the talons armpit, which is what all talons have even if the wingsuit isn't out. The wingspan is at least 3 feet in diameter and it is clearly not extended during the fall.
  3. Trying to argue that the Lazarus pits healed Bruce after he was stabbed with a shovel in a chest. They were near them, but that doesn't mean they get instantly healed.
  4. A reliance on silver age feats to try and argue consistency. If something is consistent, there should be many modern feats, yet you often rely on feats from an age where Thanos was arrested by the NYPD and sexism and racism were the norm.
  5. Many of your claims for Cap are actually due to his shield, not him.
  6. Coming up with amusing ways/assumptions to discredit Batman's feats. He's taken hits from god level entities, taken more physical damage than cap, has better strength feats than Cap...yet you find a way to dismiss them while clinging to your silver age feats as somehow valid.
  7. They're just the ones I recall, but I'm sure there's plenty more. In fact, I'll address vesharks comments tomorrow. I probably won't respond to yours as...well...you've shown it's futile.

It's hypocritical, and shows just how prone to confirmation bias you are. Honestly, it's like trying to explain the basic theory of evolution to a religious fanatic.

The thing is, I don't even have a dog in this race. I don't dislike Cap. I don't read his comic but I've read him in cross over events and enjoyed his movies. I just think it's ridiculous to say that he is superhuman. If I do have a dog in this race it isn't that Batman is better than Cap, it's just that Cap isn't that much ahead of batman -- they are physically equal in my book due to feats.

Some people can't even accept that possibility and need Cap to be 10 times better or their world falls apart.

Sure dude, Captain America went 12 years without aging, I'm sure we don't need logic to see that's not superhuman right? Move along or continue to troll, it's your choice.

#73 Edited by MuyJingo (2263 posts) - - Show Bio

For those who still think 616 Cap is stronger/more durable than Ultimate Cap, Slim does a good job of explaining why that isn't the case here

@slimj87d said:

@muyjingo said:
@slimj87d said:

Actually 3 times, don't forget Ed Brubaker's run. And don't bother addressing Muyjingo till you see his thread where Veshark and I bombarded him with logic he couldn't counter.

I'm sorry, what?

First of all, IIRC, you're studying engineering, so you should be ashamed for thinking your arguments even remotely resembled anything logical.

Your "logic" was based on extremely selective and biased interpretations not supported by evidence.

  1. Trying to argue a figure of speech should be taken literally because it was a double entendre, which it wasn't.
  2. Trying to argue a Talon had his wingsuit out when it was fighting with Bruce and they were freefalling. Your argument for this was a glint in the talons armpit, which is what all talons have even if the wingsuit isn't out. The wingspan is at least 3 feet in diameter and it is clearly not extended during the fall.
  3. Trying to argue that the Lazarus pits healed Bruce after he was stabbed with a shovel in a chest. They were near them, but that doesn't mean they get instantly healed.
  4. A reliance on silver age feats to try and argue consistency. If something is consistent, there should be many modern feats, yet you often rely on feats from an age where Thanos was arrested by the NYPD and sexism and racism were the norm.
  5. Many of your claims for Cap are actually due to his shield, not him.
  6. Coming up with amusing ways/assumptions to discredit Batman's feats. He's taken hits from god level entities, taken more physical damage than cap, has better strength feats than Cap...yet you find a way to dismiss them while clinging to your silver age feats as somehow valid.
  7. They're just the ones I recall, but I'm sure there's plenty more. In fact, I'll address vesharks comments tomorrow. I probably won't respond to yours as...well...you've shown it's futile.

It's hypocritical, and shows just how prone to confirmation bias you are. Honestly, it's like trying to explain the basic theory of evolution to a religious fanatic.

The thing is, I don't even have a dog in this race. I don't dislike Cap. I don't read his comic but I've read him in cross over events and enjoyed his movies. I just think it's ridiculous to say that he is superhuman. If I do have a dog in this race it isn't that Batman is better than Cap, it's just that Cap isn't that much ahead of batman -- they are physically equal in my book due to feats.

Some people can't even accept that possibility and need Cap to be 10 times better or their world falls apart.

Sure dude, Captain America went 12 years without aging, I'm sure we don't need logic to see that's not superhuman right? Move along or continue to troll, it's your choice.

He has an enhanced healing factor (which affects his aging) which I've acknowledge from the start, and that was in another dimension where time moves faster.

In any case his aging has little to do with physical superiority as far as strength, reflexes etc.

I think it's funny you accuse me of trolling just because I disagree with you. At least I haven't resorted to personal attacks. Pot, meet kettle.

#74 Posted by SlimJ87D (11029 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@slimj87d said:

@muyjingo said:
@slimj87d said:

Actually 3 times, don't forget Ed Brubaker's run. And don't bother addressing Muyjingo till you see his thread where Veshark and I bombarded him with logic he couldn't counter.

I'm sorry, what?

First of all, IIRC, you're studying engineering, so you should be ashamed for thinking your arguments even remotely resembled anything logical.

Your "logic" was based on extremely selective and biased interpretations not supported by evidence.

  1. Trying to argue a figure of speech should be taken literally because it was a double entendre, which it wasn't.
  2. Trying to argue a Talon had his wingsuit out when it was fighting with Bruce and they were freefalling. Your argument for this was a glint in the talons armpit, which is what all talons have even if the wingsuit isn't out. The wingspan is at least 3 feet in diameter and it is clearly not extended during the fall.
  3. Trying to argue that the Lazarus pits healed Bruce after he was stabbed with a shovel in a chest. They were near them, but that doesn't mean they get instantly healed.
  4. A reliance on silver age feats to try and argue consistency. If something is consistent, there should be many modern feats, yet you often rely on feats from an age where Thanos was arrested by the NYPD and sexism and racism were the norm.
  5. Many of your claims for Cap are actually due to his shield, not him.
  6. Coming up with amusing ways/assumptions to discredit Batman's feats. He's taken hits from god level entities, taken more physical damage than cap, has better strength feats than Cap...yet you find a way to dismiss them while clinging to your silver age feats as somehow valid.
  7. They're just the ones I recall, but I'm sure there's plenty more. In fact, I'll address vesharks comments tomorrow. I probably won't respond to yours as...well...you've shown it's futile.

It's hypocritical, and shows just how prone to confirmation bias you are. Honestly, it's like trying to explain the basic theory of evolution to a religious fanatic.

The thing is, I don't even have a dog in this race. I don't dislike Cap. I don't read his comic but I've read him in cross over events and enjoyed his movies. I just think it's ridiculous to say that he is superhuman. If I do have a dog in this race it isn't that Batman is better than Cap, it's just that Cap isn't that much ahead of batman -- they are physically equal in my book due to feats.

Some people can't even accept that possibility and need Cap to be 10 times better or their world falls apart.

Sure dude, Captain America went 12 years without aging, I'm sure we don't need logic to see that's not superhuman right? Move along or continue to troll, it's your choice.

He has an enhanced healing factor (which affects his aging) which I've acknowledge from the start, and that was in another dimension where time moves faster.

In any case his aging has little to do with physical superiority as far as strength, reflexes etc.

I think it's funny you accuse me of trolling just because I disagree with you. At least I haven't resorted to personal attacks. Pot, meet kettle.

So you're saying his suppressed aging doesn't qualify him as a superhuman? See, you're doing it again. And you wonder why people give you a hard time.

#75 Edited by Twix_Right_Side (2375 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d @wolverine08 I'm f*cking DYING here XD

Reading these posts make me cry.

I wonder if we're gonna start calling Punisher superhuman next....

#76 Posted by MuyJingo (2263 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

So you're saying his suppressed aging doesn't qualify him as a superhuman? See, you're doing it again. And you wonder why people give you a hard time.

People don't give me a hard time. A few bored cap obsessed kids try to give me a hard time, but they don't realize they're always playing catch up.

Are you really trying to argue that because Steve could be considered enhanced due to his suppressed aging, that that should be extrapolated to him having super strength and reflexes?

Come on now......

#77 Posted by Wolverine08 (46009 posts) - - Show Bio

@twix_right_side: Have you seen Frank and the way he fires em'? Boys definitely a meta :D

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#78 Edited by Twix_Right_Side (2375 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@twix_right_side: Have you seen Frank and the way he fires em'? Boys definitely a meta :D

LMFAO

I mean,Frank is definitely a peak human,but he's just that. A peak human.

Cap is a superhuman (unless we try to blatantly ignore/dismiss/lowball his feats). But hey,bias can make anyone believe idiotic things. It acts as a blindfold,whereas facts/logic/objectivity take a backseat. A person can easily say that Ultimate Cap is a peak human if they wanted to by using such tactics. I can argue that Batman is stronger than Superman by using such tactics.

In my opinion,though,Batman is borderline superhuman,or at least,directly underneath the mark.

People like Wolverine/Deathstroke/Cap are FAR past the superhuman mark.

#79 Edited by MuyJingo (2263 posts) - - Show Bio

@twix_right_side said:

@wolverine08 said:

@twix_right_side: Have you seen Frank and the way he fires em'? Boys definitely a meta :D

LMFAO

I mean,Frank is definitely a peak human,but he's just that. A peak human.

Cap is a superhuman (unless we try to blatantly ignore/dismiss/lowball his feats). But hey,bias can make anyone believe idiotic things. It acts as a blindfold,whereas facts/logic/objectivity take a backseat. A person can easily say that Ultimate Cap is a peak human if they wanted to by using such tactics. I can argue that Batman is stronger than Superman by using such tactics.

In my opinion,though,Batman is borderline superhuman,or at least,directly underneath the mark.

People like Wolverine/Deathstroke/Cap are FAR past the superhuman mark.

You would literally have to be TRYING consciously to ignore their feats or dismiss them as peak human,and even still,it would be desperate.

Nice use of commas there shatner.

So, Frank is peak human, Batman is superhuman or just under that mark, while Cap is FAR past the superhuman mark?

Not debating, just wanting to make sure I understood.

#80 Posted by Twix_Right_Side (2375 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:
@wolverine08 said:

Captain America is superhuman by comic book standards as well. Comic book peak humans can't run at 60 MPH casually. Comic book humans can't throw a shield so hard that it decapitates and turns over 16-20 ton tank turrets. Comic book peak humans brains dont' work so fast that bullets look live they are moving in slow motion to them after they have been fired. Comic book peak humans can't be throw by a class 100+ into a bullet proof 40 tonner and not go splat.

Steve's physical feats are just plain superhuman even in comic land.

He was stated to run at 60mph only once. What makes you think he casually runs at that speed? Since it was only shown once, what makes you think it wasn't an isolated incident?

Cap said he "sees faster", which is open to interpretation. Has he ever been shown seeing bullets in bullet time?

It means that his perception is slowed down to the point that he can see bullets,whereas for me and you (or at least,me lol) we wouldn't even be able to see a bullet when it is fired. Kind of like in Halo where Master Chief (and every Spartan) have their perception slowed down,and everything they see is in slow motion. What did you think that it meant?

And by the way,I want to see a strength feat of Batman from you. I am NOT discrediting you,I just want to see one. And by the way,it doesn't matter if a feat is from the Silver Age or not. What matters is if it's consistent and canon. You bring up the point on Thanos being arrested,but...wait,you know what? Just forget it. Just forget it. Dismiss this entire second paragraph.

However,after seeing more of your posts on this thread (no offense),I'm actually not convinced in the slightest....your opinion is,according to you,unpopular,and I can....see why. And there's also a difference between unpopular,and just blatantly ignoring/dismissing things that are clearly shown. It's like a leap of faith for me to actually believe just ONE of the things that you say regarding Steve and Bruce in their "comparisons". It's almost arbitrary,but that's just my opinion,and I might as well keep it to myself.

#81 Edited by Twix_Right_Side (2375 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@twix_right_side said:

@wolverine08 said:

@twix_right_side: Have you seen Frank and the way he fires em'? Boys definitely a meta :D

LMFAO

I mean,Frank is definitely a peak human,but he's just that. A peak human.

Cap is a superhuman (unless we try to blatantly ignore/dismiss/lowball his feats). But hey,bias can make anyone believe idiotic things. It acts as a blindfold,whereas facts/logic/objectivity take a backseat. A person can easily say that Ultimate Cap is a peak human if they wanted to by using such tactics. I can argue that Batman is stronger than Superman by using such tactics.

In my opinion,though,Batman is borderline superhuman,or at least,directly underneath the mark.

People like Wolverine/Deathstroke/Cap are FAR past the superhuman mark.

You would literally have to be TRYING consciously to ignore their feats or dismiss them as peak human,and even still,it would be desperate.

Nice use of commas there shatner.

So, Frank is peak human, Batman is superhuman or just under that mark, while Cap is FAR past the superhuman mark?

Not debating, just wanting to make sure I understood.

Wow,didn't know that this was language arts class....was it easy on your eyes? Good to know that this is the decency that I can expect from civilized viners....it truly is welcoming.

Depends on what you mean....because I think that I was pretty clear. Or are you going to say that,if Cap is "FAR" past the mark,that Batman is,too? Or are you going to say that Steve is under the mark? Just asking. Not debating.

#82 Posted by SlimJ87D (11029 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo: you're doing it again. People are starting to take notice. Stop it.

#83 Edited by Twix_Right_Side (2375 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@muyjingo: you're doing it again. People are starting to take notice. Stop it.

He's been doing it in every post I see him in. It's not that hard to spot,and you don't need to be Sherlock to see a certain trend.

#84 Posted by Twix_Right_Side (2375 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: lol that thread with you and veshark in it was a smackdown.

#85 Posted by FearTheLiving (4493 posts) - - Show Bio

@farkam said:

In comicbookland supposedly normal human heroes do some pretty cray sh*t themselves. So peak humans seem superhuman, while normal humans seem peak human. Using real life standards, yes, he is superhuman.

This. Marvel Comic standards peak human, Our standards superhuman.

#86 Edited by MuyJingo (2263 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@muyjingo: you're doing it again. People are starting to take notice. Stop it.

Kid. Please.

I'm not doing anything except debating this topic in a civil manner.

I've got you, krauser, and twix to do with who are a vocal minority and who tend to over exaggerate caps feats as previously mentioned not to mention resorting to personal attacks.

I'll continue to debate the topic because I think it's interesting, even if it's more poking holes in fallacious arguments than any actual reasoning.

@tg1982 was one of the few cap fans in these parts able to have a civilized debate. How I wish he were here.

@twix_right_side said:

Wow,didn't know that this was language arts class....was it easy on your eyes? Good to know that this is the decency that I can expect from civilized viners....it truly is welcoming.

Depends on what you mean....because I think that I was pretty clear. Or are you going to say that,if Cap is "FAR" past the mark,that Batman is,too? Or are you going to say that Steve is under the mark? Just asking. Not debating.

I don't want to debate this with you.

I just thought it was interesting that you consider Batman borderline superhuman and Cap FAR beyond superhuman, while Punisher is only peak.

It's a ranking I haven't seen people use before. I disagree, but each to their own.

@twix_right_side said:

@muyjingo said:
@wolverine08 said:

Captain America is superhuman by comic book standards as well. Comic book peak humans can't run at 60 MPH casually. Comic book humans can't throw a shield so hard that it decapitates and turns over 16-20 ton tank turrets. Comic book peak humans brains dont' work so fast that bullets look live they are moving in slow motion to them after they have been fired. Comic book peak humans can't be throw by a class 100+ into a bullet proof 40 tonner and not go splat.

Steve's physical feats are just plain superhuman even in comic land.

He was stated to run at 60mph only once. What makes you think he casually runs at that speed? Since it was only shown once, what makes you think it wasn't an isolated incident?

Cap said he "sees faster", which is open to interpretation. Has he ever been shown seeing bullets in bullet time?

It means that his perception is slowed down to the point that he can see bullets,whereas for me and you (or at least,me lol) we wouldn't even be able to see a bullet when it is fired. Kind of like in Halo where Master Chief (and every Spartan) have their perception slowed down,and everything they see is in slow motion. What did you think that it meant?

And by the way,I want to see a strength feat of Batman from you. I am NOT discrediting you,I just want to see one. And by the way,it doesn't matter if a feat is from the Silver Age or not. What matters is if it's consistent and canon. You bring up the point on Thanos being arrested,but...wait,you know what? Just forget it. Just forget it. Dismiss this entire second paragraph.

However,after seeing more of your posts on this thread (no offense),I'm actually not convinced in the slightest....your opinion is,according to you,unpopular,and I can....see why. And there's also a difference between unpopular,and just blatantly ignoring/dismissing things that are clearly shown. It's like a leap of faith for me to actually believe just ONE of the things that you say regarding Steve and Bruce in their "comparisons". It's almost arbitrary,but that's just my opinion,and I might as well keep it to myself.

The problem with that is that you're giving a definitive answer, when a definitive answer wasn't stated in the comics.

Steve said he sees faster. That's the only evidence we have. I don't think it means bullet time ala The Matrix (I don't play Halo but assume it's the same thing), but rather seeing things before they happen which is what you would expect from someone so highly trained.

If he could see bullets slowly coming toward him, don't you think they would have loved to show off that trait in comics? Not simply letting us imagine it by having him say he sees faster?

If you want to see Batman strength feats you can check the blog I wrote, it's about 10 threads under this one or you can see it by clicking on my profile. I took them from the batman feats blog, which is a pretty great collection of scans.

When I said my opinion is unpopular, I mean specifically here in the captain america forum, which isn't surprising. In the whole, my opinion is pretty common. You need only check the Batman vs Captain America thread from 2012 that was on the main site to see that people from both sides are equally represented.

Not sure where the leap of faith comes in. Can you give a specific example? If evidence or explanation is lacking, I will try to fix it.

#87 Posted by Jayc1324 (14183 posts) - - Show Bio

Its called being enhanced

#88 Edited by Twix_Right_Side (2375 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@slimj87d said:

@muyjingo: you're doing it again. People are starting to take notice. Stop it.

Kid. Please.

Wow...another insult.

I'm not doing anything except debating this topic in a civil manner.

Calling people "kid" or making condescending remarks towards their grammar is not "civil" in any sense of the word.

I've got you, krauser, and twix to do with who are a vocal minority and who tend to over exaggerate caps feats as previously mentioned.

uh huh. Vocal minority....whatever helps you catch Z's. But hey,you apparently took a census,right? And no one exaggerated any feats. If anything,I've only seen you lowball every feat at every turn.

I'll continue to debate the topic because I think it's interesting, even if it's more poking holes in fallacious arguments than any actual reasoning.

In my honest opinion,it looks quite the opposite. Everyone is supporting their opinion with valid arguments,and your supporting yours with ones that rely on tenuous links and leaps of faith. And in every thread I've seen you in,that trend has remained consistent. It's almost as if you consciously ignore the points,but whatever.

@tg1982 was one of the few cap fans in these parts able to have a civilized debate. How I wish he were here.

@twix_right_side said:

Wow,didn't know that this was language arts class....was it easy on your eyes? Good to know that this is the decency that I can expect from civilized viners....it truly is welcoming.

Depends on what you mean....because I think that I was pretty clear. Or are you going to say that,if Cap is "FAR" past the mark,that Batman is,too? Or are you going to say that Steve is under the mark? Just asking. Not debating.

I'm not going to say anything. I don't want to debate with you.

Good to hear. I'd rather not be insulted or have my intelligence insulted because of grammar.

I just thought it was interesting that you consider Batman borderline superhuman and Cap FAR beyond superhuman, while Punisher is only peak.

By feats,Punisher has only shown Peak human feats. It's pretty clear that you'll disagree.

It's a ranking I haven't seen people use before. I disagree, but each to their own.

@twix_right_side said:

@muyjingo said:
@wolverine08 said:

Captain America is superhuman by comic book standards as well. Comic book peak humans can't run at 60 MPH casually. Comic book humans can't throw a shield so hard that it decapitates and turns over 16-20 ton tank turrets. Comic book peak humans brains dont' work so fast that bullets look live they are moving in slow motion to them after they have been fired. Comic book peak humans can't be throw by a class 100+ into a bullet proof 40 tonner and not go splat.

Steve's physical feats are just plain superhuman even in comic land.

He was stated to run at 60mph only once. What makes you think he casually runs at that speed? Since it was only shown once, what makes you think it wasn't an isolated incident?

Cap said he "sees faster", which is open to interpretation. Has he ever been shown seeing bullets in bullet time?

It means that his perception is slowed down to the point that he can see bullets,whereas for me and you (or at least,me lol) we wouldn't even be able to see a bullet when it is fired. Kind of like in Halo where Master Chief (and every Spartan) have their perception slowed down,and everything they see is in slow motion. What did you think that it meant?

And by the way,I want to see a strength feat of Batman from you. I am NOT discrediting you,I just want to see one. And by the way,it doesn't matter if a feat is from the Silver Age or not. What matters is if it's consistent and canon. You bring up the point on Thanos being arrested,but...wait,you know what? Just forget it. Just forget it. Dismiss this entire second paragraph.

However,after seeing more of your posts on this thread (no offense),I'm actually not convinced in the slightest....your opinion is,according to you,unpopular,and I can....see why. And there's also a difference between unpopular,and just blatantly ignoring/dismissing things that are clearly shown. It's like a leap of faith for me to actually believe just ONE of the things that you say regarding Steve and Bruce in their "comparisons". It's almost arbitrary,but that's just my opinion,and I might as well keep it to myself.

The problem with that is that you're giving a definitive answer, when a definitive answer wasn't stated in the comics.

But...you just gave a definitive answer....

Steve said he sees faster. That's the only evidence we have. I don't think it means bullet time ala The Matrix (I don't play Halo but assume it's the same thing), but rather seeing things before they happen which is what you would expect from someone so highly trained.

How does seeing a person pull a gun mean that you can see the bullets faster? It takes a LOT more for me to believe that this was the implication,when this was hardly supported by the scan or the general implication. Guess that means that cops can see bullets faster than they can travel. And it's not really the same thing,but whatever

If he could see bullets slowly coming toward him, don't you think they would have loved to show off that trait in comics? Not simply letting us imagine it by having him say he sees faster?

It's quite clear actually. If you cannot see the implication,then......

If you want to see Batman strength feats you can check the blog I wrote, it's about 10 threads under this one or you can see it by clicking on my profile. I took them from the batman feats blog, which is a pretty great collection of scans.

The same blog that would even use PIS feats as evidence? That blog,while it has some good scans,would even put out of context scans into the light (for example,if Batman were to beat Etrigan in a fistfight,they would post it). But make no mistake,they do have some good scans.

When I said my opinion is unpopular, I mean specifically here in the captain america forum, which isn't surprising.

Really,because in my experience in the comic book community,I see people say the exact opposite,but okay....

But the forum that it's on doesn't necessarily mean anything. If that's the case,then I should go on a Flash forum and make claim that Quicksilver is just as fast (if not faster) than Wally West,and tell myself the same things...

In the whole, my opinion is pretty common.

Which is odd because this is one of the first times I've heard people say it,and I've even heard extreme Batfans (I know that they're extreme because I know them personally) say the exact opposite.

You need only check the Batman vs Captain America thread from 2012 that was on the main site to see that people from both sides are equally represented.

I highly doubt it,but forgive my cynicism.

Not sure where the leap of faith comes in. Can you give a specific example? If evidence or explanation is lacking, I will try to fix it.

It takes A LOT more effort for me to believe what you're saying about Cap based off of everything that I've read. Based off of what has always been shown,and what is currently being shown,the things that you're saying seem very inconsistent and poorly supported.Based off of everything I've read about Batman. All of it,basically. Still waiting for those Ultimate Captain America scans of yours,man.

#89 Edited by Twix_Right_Side (2375 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@muyjingo said:

@wolverine08 said:

No, he's been shown or stated to be able run at speeds near or at 60 MPH per hour two other times.


Heh. The first 2 are from a silver age comic where he is running at 50mph. I don't think silver age comics are a good source as they were written primarily for entertainment, (i.e. Thanos being handcuffed by the NYPD). So that's 2 incidents where his running speed is stated, as you won't find more than that. Hardly consistant, given that they are what, 40 years apart?

The third is a figure of speech. I won't have the same argument again on here, as it's a waste of time, but basically that guy is saying Steve has been BUSY. That's what it means when someone says you've been running a mile a minute. It's not a double entendre and it isn't meant to be taken literally. It's a sign of desperation to even include that scan.

He said he"sees faster." What else does someone do when they are seeing things faster than averagd? Your brain processes auditory information for you, for Steve to be seeing things faster than that of a normal human his brain needs to be functioning at a faster rate than that of a normal human. Ergo, something a non metahuman wouldn't be able to do.

That's one interpretation. I see it as he has is trained to the point where he can see someone reaching for a gun and firing, not that he sees the bullets coming at him, has time to react and then dodge them.

I haven't even touched on the fact that comic book peak humans can't recover at the rate Captain America does like when he does stuff like getting his leg smashed in half by a 40 ton John Steele and heals after a couple of moments.

You also forget to touch on the fact that Steve's consistent durability feats are unreplicable by comic book peak humans as well.

I disagree that other peak human feats don't match Steve's feats. I made a blog showing Batman matching or exceeding Cap's most famous feats. Even then, I'm sure it's easy to find PIS feats for Daredevil, Punisher, etc.

Getting smacked around by a super powered being is pretty standard fare for a lot of "peak humans". Not trying to claim Steve is peak, merely stating showing him getting smacked around by more powerful people doesn't prove anything.

LMAO, you mean that blog where you BSed Batman's feats to match Steve's? I still remember that blog, where I showed you a feat of Steve falling 50+ stories without injury, and you tried to show a scan of batman gliding, using his grappling hook and landing without damage to say it was an equal feat.

Did he.....really do that?

If that's the case,I really don't want to waste my time. I think it's clear that both feats don't have the same variables involved. I think we can all point them out..Even a 3rd grader can.Thus,they are not the same.

#90 Edited by MuyJingo (2263 posts) - - Show Bio

@twix_right_side Um. That's a mess of a reply. Not blaming you either, I don't think these forums make it easy to break apart quotes.

I'm just going to reply with some bullet points. I hope you don't mind.

  1. Yes, I called him a kid. Because he was accusing me of trolling, as well as personal attacks earlier in the thread. He was, IMO, acting like a kid. Given that he's a student, that isn't surprising to me. For the most part I've tried not to personally attack anyone and when I have, it's been as a response.
  2. I call you part of a vocal minority because your opinion is not representative of the average cap fan, yet you are very vociferous about it.
  3. You've said a few times now that you feel everyone who agrees with you is making good claims and supporting it with evidence, while I am not. I feel the evidence presented is weak at best. Silver age scans, one off PIS feats and feats served with a whole side of assumption.
  4. I made a pretty detailed blog with evidence, and directed you how to find it. If that doesn't constitute supporting my claims with evidence, I'm not sure what would satisfy you.
  5. When I called you Shatner I wasn't insulting your intelligence.I'm sorry you took it that way. It was meant to be a joke as Shatner is known for pausing when he speaks, and so reading your paragraph with the many commas would make it sound shatner-esque.
  6. I don't disagree that Punisher has shown only peak human feats. Not sure why you think I would disagree with that.
  7. You seem set on taking Steve saying he can see faster literally, as though that is the only valid interpretation. That doesn't make sense to me, as i said, if he could see in bullet time I think they would take many opportunities to show that within the panels. That they have not is suspect.
  8. To give you an example...Black Widow could be said to "see faster" as well. By seeing who is going to fire, where they are going to aim etc....
  9. I've told you a few times, it wasn't the same blog you are thinking of, it's one I wrote a few days ago. Do you not read what I write before replying?
  10. The batman feats blog doesn't claim to categorize feats by canonization or continuity, it just shows them. I chose only canon feats to use as evidence.
  11. This is what bugs me in this whole debate. Why when Batman does something is it PIS, but when Cap does something it isn't?
  12. You know what would make this debate easy peasy? Show a feat being repeated 5 times for it to be considered valid/consistent/not PIS
  13. Then you're experience is limited. You need only look at this thread, from 2008, where the issue is being discussed passionately. I joined this forum 4 years later. There are numerous threads with people debating caps physicals in both directions on both sides of the debate. To say one stance is unpopular is disingenuous.
  14. If you doubt it and you have your doubts, why don't you check the thread to alleviate them?
  15. What Ultimate Captain America scans could you possibly be waiting for? I never said I would provide any. I linked to a thread where Slimj87d argues that ultimate cap is superior to 616 cap.
  16. If someone on your side of the debate has already made that argument for me, why would I bother when it would be needlessly antagonistic?

#91 Posted by MuyJingo (2263 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

Did he.....really do that?

If that's the case,I really don't want to waste my time. I think it's clear that both feats don't have the same variables involved. I think we can all point them out..Even a 3rd grader can.Thus,they are not the same.

No, I didn't do that.

You keep making comments like this.

It seems your not actually interested in looking at any evidence that may challenge your opinion since you keep finding reasons not to.

My view, my only view since I ever started debating this is that Steve and Bruce are physically equal, with Steve having an enhanced healing factor and better running speed. Strength, durability etc, they are equal.

I've provided my reasoning and scans each time, only to have Cap's few PIS feats highballed and exaggerated and Batman's feats dismissed or lowballed.

I mean, hanging on inside a jet engine, pulling open a locked car trunk under water, bending a gun barrel, lifting 1200 pounds....somehow these feats and others just get flat out dismissed.

#92 Edited by Twix_Right_Side (2375 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@twix_right_side Um. That's a mess of a reply. Not blaming you either, I don't think these forums make it easy to break apart quotes.

I'm just going to reply with some bullet points. I hope you don't mind.

  1. Yes, I called him a kid. Because he was accusing me of trolling, as well as personal attacks earlier in the thread. He was, IMO, acting like a kid. Given that he's a student, that isn't surprising to me. For the most part I've tried not to personally attack anyone and when I have, it's been as a response. Yet it's still a pretty rude thing to say,and it doesn't matter if it was a response. Petty=Petty. If you called me an idiot (this is hypothetical),should I react by calling you stupid? We both would be in the wrong. It's also not really a necessary response.
  2. I call you part of a vocal minority because your opinion is not representative of the average cap fan, yet you are very vociferous about it. I never really said that my views in particular are representative of the average Cap fan (or at least,that's not what I meant),but I have seen most that share a consistent view.
  3. You've said a few times now that you feel everyone who agrees with you is making good claims and supporting it with evidence, while I am not. I feel the evidence presented is weak at best. Silver age scans, one off PIS feats and feats served with a whole side of assumption. Not really what I meant. Not everyone that agrees with me will necessarily support their argument. I've seen you in,well,countless threads (many before I even joined),and that's why I feel so. And can you give me one of those scans,and then tell me where the assumption comes into play? By the same token,many of the things you've said (particularly the "seeing faster feat",in this case) seem to be based off of assumption.
  4. I made a pretty detailed blog with evidence, and directed you how to find it. If that doesn't constitute supporting my claims with evidence, I'm not sure what would satisfy you. The evidence doesn't seem very well supported to me....or at least,the support for the claims,but I am not completely done reading,so I must reserve this comment.
  5. When I called you Shatner I wasn't insulting your intelligence.I'm sorry you took it that way. It was meant to be a joke as Shatner is known for pausing when he speaks, and so reading your paragraph with the many commas would make it sound shatner-esque. The way it sounded,it definitely sounded condescending and rude. Sorry if that wasn't the intent,but that isn't exactly my fault (and not yours either,I guess).
  6. I don't disagree that Punisher has shown only peak human feats. Not sure why you think I would disagree with that.
  7. You seem set on taking Steve saying he can see faster literally, as though that is the only valid interpretation. That doesn't make sense to me, as i said, if he could see in bullet time I think they would take many opportunists to show that within the panels. At the same time,I feel that not everything is really open to interpretation. It's comics. It doesn't matter if it makes sense to you. It doesn't make sense to me that everyone in Gotham is borderline psychotic,yet so many people live in one of the worst cities in history,and it doesn't make sense to me that being irradiated with Gamma rays doesn't instantly kill you.....it's fiction. All of the "why's" and whatnot are completely irrelevant. We can spend hours with countless "why didn't they...",but they will get us nowhere. They stated what they needed to. They expressed what the writer tried to express.
  8. To give you an example...Black Widow could be said to "see faster" as well. By seeing who is going to fire, where they are going to aim etc.... None of that translates into "seeing bullets" after someone asks you how you can easily dodge them. And that's based off of your claim. Has it been stated,on panel (by Widow or anyone else) that she can "see faster" than them? And again,none of that is supported or shown by the panels.
  9. I've told you a few times, it wasn't the same blog you are thinking of, it's one I wrote a few days ago. Do you not read what I write before replying?
  10. The batman feats blog doesn't claim to categorize feats by canonization or continuity, it just shows them. I chose only canon feats to use as evidence. I've been visiting the blog consistently for 3-4 years. I know how it works.
  11. This is what bugs me in this whole debate. Why when Batman does something is it PIS, but when Cap does something it isn't? That is not what I said at all,so I have no idea where you got that from. I don't think anyone has said that here. And you called some of Cap's feats PIS,so...
  12. You know what would make this debate easy peasy? Show a feat being repeated 5 times for it to be considered valid/consistent/not PIS Why 5? Why is this the decided limit? Can you show me where,by Comicvine standards,that it's stated that this must be the case for something to be considered canon or consistent? Or was it decided to be 4? Or 3? Put simply,that's not the necessary comicvine forum standard....unless it is actually stated on the forum rules. Does it state so?
  13. Then you're experience is limited. You need only look at this thread, from 2008, where the issue is being discussed passionately. I joined this forum 4 years later. There are numerous threads with people debating caps physicals in both directions on both sides of the debate. To say one stance is unpopular is disingenuous. So to undermine my experience as a comic fan by observing and absorbing other opinions as "limited" isn't disingenuous? Really? Must I point out the obvious contradiction? Even if that wasn't your intent,it was incredibly disingenuous in my opinion. And here on the vine,and on most sites in general,this is the experience that I've had. Especially my many years reading on the vine before I made an account. But you know what? Limited.
  14. If you doubt it and you have your doubts, why don't you check the thread to alleviate them?
  15. What Ultimate Captain America scans could you possibly be waiting for? I never said I would provide any. I linked to a thread where Slimj87d argues that ultimate cap is superior to 616 cap. You made a claim about his superiority a page or two back. You made the claim,thus I am asking you to support it. I cannot say "Batman is stronger than Deathstroke",yet not provide any scans to support a claim that I made.
  16. If someone on your side of the debate has already made that argument for me, why would I bother when it would be needlessly antagonistic? Pardon?

You know what? Never mind. It's not you,it's just that it's 3:15 right now in Florida,and I have to wake up at 6:00. I have a very busy day ahead of me tomorrow,so I cannot continue right now. Not only that,but after being in a few threads and having 1 too many experiences,I don't think that I want to be in a "debate". It's not you,though. I just truly don't have the time or the energy. Perhaps tomorrow. Perhaps later. Perhaps not. I don't know. The point of a debate is to look at things from an objective standpoint to make a conclusion based off of the facts presented. Clearly,that is not happening,especially when one's mind is already made up. Thus I am not wasting my time (this is not directed at you in the negative sense,so please don't take it the wrong way)

somehow I know that you may still reply with open-ended questions that demand an answer...

#94 Edited by Twix_Right_Side (2375 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@twix_right_side said:

@slimj87d said:

Did he.....really do that?

If that's the case,I really don't want to waste my time. I think it's clear that both feats don't have the same variables involved. I think we can all point them out..Even a 3rd grader can.Thus,they are not the same.

No, I didn't do that.

You keep making comments like this.

It seems your not actually interested in looking at any evidence that may challenge your opinion since you keep finding reasons not to.

For the record,it seems that you actually do make comments like this and try to pass them off as "PIS" or dismiss them in some way,shape,or form.So excuse me if I was cynical,and remain so. And by the way,I've already seen your "evidence", and this entire thread,and in the other,they seem to continue to follow this trend. I think I've seen what I've needed to. Don't try to tell me that I'm not interested in "looking at any evidence that may challenge my opinion",that is a completely baseless and weak assertion. If that's the case,I can say that you did the exact same thing when you said that you "didn't want to debate me",even though that would've been an assumption based on nothing but speculation. And honestly,it doesn't matter. I doubt that anything I say will get accepted or won't be dismissed,so me not saying anything will have the same effect.

My view, my only view since I ever started debating this is that Steve and Bruce are physically equal, with Steve having an enhanced healing factor and better running speed. Strength, durability etc, they are equal.

Cannot say I agree,but to each their own.

I've provided my reasoning and scans each time, only to have Cap's few PIS feats highballed and exaggerated and Batman's feats dismissed or lowballed.

And I cannot say that your reasoning or the arguments presented are supported by the scans, and seems to be backed by speculative information. It isn't very convincing to me,and it almost requires me to make a leap of faith to believe. And to be completely honest,I have seen you do that very exact same thing to Captain America (dismissing them as "exaggerated" or "PIS" or any of the other ways you dismissed them) in this thread and multiple others in your arguments,while doing the inverse for Batman. It's a bit ironic in my opinion.

I mean, hanging on inside a jet engine, pulling open a locked car trunk under water, bending a gun barrel, lifting 1200 pounds....somehow these feats and others just get flat out dismissed. I recognize those feats (the second one isn't canon because of DC's reboot.....unfortunately,but that is another thorn in my side),and in no way are they low showings or anything of the sort. I also believe that he slowed down a car with a Batcable that was speeding away from him. Batman is one of the strongest peak humans in comics in my opinion,but he isn't on Cap's level in mine. Still,his feats (some are pretty high showings,like the airplane one,but that doesn't matter in my opinion if it's a "high showing" since it's still in line with what the character has performed) are pretty consistent.

#95 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm glad the majority of people are viewing Cap in the correct manner. He is a super human like Deathstroke. Accept his feats in strength are much better then Slade.

The only silly idea in this thread is saying that Batman is a true Superhuman which is irrational that poster mujingo likes to post and even sillier saying his strength and durability is equal to Captain America.

#96 Edited by SlimJ87D (11029 posts) - - Show Bio

@twix_right_side: @veshark

Batman is impressive, there's no doubt. But compared to Captain America he's never

1. Fallen from heights that cause craters and cars to get smashed in half. Last scan, he even gets propelled by War Machine to go at speeds far faster than gravity would have made him.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3208722-8132737048-36314.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3208719-9619062058-18106.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3208721-8293842126-page3.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3208718-0235873803-20234.jpg

2. Been shown to take and survive an explosion like Cap has. Batman has walked out of a explosion but we never saw the context behind what happened, we've seen cap actually take an explosion that destroyed and blew apart trees.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3220577-avx-zone_007.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3220578-avx-zone_008.jpg

3. Batman has never thrown and pitched objects hard enough to destroy and slice vehicles in http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3220577-avx-zone_007.jpghalf. Cap has. He's destroyed tanks, cars, helicopters, etc. His shield weighs 12 lbs. Cap has also thrown a 150+ piece of concrete through a 2 story building destroying it and also sending 2 160+ pound men through it.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/105240/3235607-0696992506-32086.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/105240/3235608-4073448227-32086.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/104108/3538877-captruck.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3369162-8655695450-CAPAL.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/60791/3514296-4716225840-22770.jpg

4. Batman has never leaped 2 stories high like Captain America has nor has he propelled himself using gymnastics 20 stories high or a front flip with a 100 lb piece of ice on his legs

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3220546-4102109216-12691.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3208684-7914068983-22770.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3220547-1532380217-22770.jpg

5. Ran at 60 MPH while holding 160 lbs of weight in his arms and back (Shield and Bucky).

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3210072-1591878496-29869.jpg

6. Ripped a large chunk of his chest out and then hours later survived a fall of 100s of feet onto the ground after fighting Jet and Zola.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/101999/3064038-carved+chest1.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/101999/3064039-carvedchest.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3209571-captain+america+v7+009-015.jpg

7. His shield card states he's enhanced:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3220611-7025730439-0040_.jpg

These are points I all pointed out in this thread: http://www.comicvine.com/captain-america/4005-1442/forums/so-cap-isn-t-a-superhuman-but-is-he-enhanced-or-pe-1452472/?page=3

Now this @muyjingo jokester claims I disagree with him, but it's more like he disagrees with the majority. Feel free to read through that thread and see how he desperately tries to find reasons why Captain America doesn't run at 60 MPH, even though Steve has done it on panel 2 times and has been claimed to do it. He convinces no one and ends up abandoning the thread, only to reappear in threads like this one to follow the same patterns previously. That is, he regurgitate the same points he's made before while receiving the same responses from people to point out that Captain America hasis enhanced

On top of that, we have a writer that wrote Captain America, Daredevil, Batman, Catwoman and Commissioner Gordon for years. That man's name is Ed Brubaker, and he flat out says that Steve is enhanced.

"I agree with parts of a lot of people's comments here and elsewhere. But I think it's a bit funny to see people get so bent out of shape when a guy who's given something called the "Super Soldier Serum" turns out to be a bit more than the average human. He's been leaping out of the windows of eight story buildings and across city streets in NYC, dodging bullets, doing amazing feats of speed and strength, since I started reading the book in the early 70s.

My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can. If it was just about having an olympic-level athlete, do you really think all these groups and scientists would have been wasting 50 plus years trying to replicate the SSS?

All I've done is have him say outloud what's always been pretty clear to me as a fan of the character. He's always been a lot stronger and faster than the average well-trained athlete. And I've always hated the Batman comparisons. Batman trained himself, Cap got given a miracle serum. I'm not making that up or changing anything.

Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze. As for Cap running 60mph. In the comic, I think he says he can run a mile in a little over a minute when he HAS to. It's not even implied that he can keep that up all day. It's a full-on burst of speed, when he has to."

So at the end of the day, there's really no debate about it.

#97 Edited by Twix_Right_Side (2375 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@twix_right_side: @veshark

Batman is impressive, there's no doubt. But compared to Captain America he's never

1. Fallen from heights that cause craters and cars to get smashed in half.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3208722-8132737048-36314.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3208719-9619062058-18106.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3208721-8293842126-page3.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3208718-0235873803-20234.jpg

2. Been shown to take and survive an explosion like Cap has. He's walked out of a explosion but we never saw the context behind what happened, we've seen cap take an explosion that destroyed and blew apart trees.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3220577-avx-zone_007.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3220578-avx-zone_008.jpg

3. Batman has never thrown and pitched objects hard enough to destroy and slice vehicles in http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3220577-avx-zone_007.jpghalf. Cap has. He's destroyed tanks, cars, helicopters, etc. His shield weighs 12 lbs. Cap has also thrown a 150+ piece of concrete through a 2 story building destroying it and also sending 2 160+ pound men through it.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/square_avatar/6/60791/3208680-0699251987-22774.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/square_avatar/6/60791/3208681-0608025657-22774.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/square_avatar/6/60791/3208683-5866335778-23231.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3369162-8655695450-CAPAL.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/60791/3514296-4716225840-22770.jpg

4. Batman has never leaped 2 stories high like Captain America has nor has he propelled himself using gymnastics 20 stories high or a front flip with a 100 lb piece of ice on his legs

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3220546-4102109216-12691.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3208684-7914068983-22770.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3220547-1532380217-22770.jpg

5. Ran at 60 MPH while holding 160 lbs of weight in his arms and back (Shield and Bucky).

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3210072-1591878496-29869.jpg

6. Ripped a large chunk of his chest out and then hours later survived a fall of 100s of feet onto the ground after fighting Jet and Zola.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/101999/3064038-carved+chest1.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/101999/3064039-carvedchest.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3209571-captain+america+v7+009-015.jpg

7. His shield card states he's enhanced:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3220611-7025730439-0040_.jpg

These are points I all pointed out in this thread: http://www.comicvine.com/captain-america/4005-1442/forums/so-cap-isn-t-a-superhuman-but-is-he-enhanced-or-pe-1452472/?page=3

Now this @muyjingo jokester claims I disagree with him, but it's more like he disagrees with the majority. Feel free to read through that thread and see how he desperately tries to find reasons why Captain America doesn't run at 60 MPH, even though Steve has done it on panel 2 times and has been claimed to do it. He convinces no one and ends up abandoning the thread, only to reappear in threads like this one to follow the same patterns previously. That is, he regurgitate the same points he's made before while receiving the same responses from people to point out that Captain America hasis enhanced

On top of that, we have a writer that wrote Captain America, Daredevil, Batman, Catwoman and Commissioner Gordon for years. That man's name is Ed Brubaker, and he flat out says that Steve is enhanced.

"I agree with parts of a lot of people's comments here and elsewhere. But I think it's a bit funny to see people get so bent out of shape when a guy who's given something called the "Super Soldier Serum" turns out to be a bit more than the average human. He's been leaping out of the windows of eight story buildings and across city streets in NYC, dodging bullets, doing amazing feats of speed and strength, since I started reading the book in the early 70s.

My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can. If it was just about having an olympic-level athlete, do you really think all these groups and scientists would have been wasting 50 plus years trying to replicate the SSS?

All I've done is have him say outloud what's always been pretty clear to me as a fan of the character. He's always been a lot stronger and faster than the average well-trained athlete. And I've always hated the Batman comparisons. Batman trained himself, Cap got given a miracle serum. I'm not making that up or changing anything.

Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze. As for Cap running 60mph. In the comic, I think he says he can run a mile in a little over a minute when he HAS to. It's not even implied that he can keep that up all day. It's a full-on burst of speed, when he has to."

So at the end of the day, there's really no debate about it.

Which is why,in my opinion

Batman<Deathstroke<Captain America<<Midnighter

I personally think that there's not much room for interpretation,but that's just me.

You've presented your case well,and with points that the panels actually support. In my opinion,the physical gap is so large that it's almost arbitrary with what has consistently been shown.

But please,no insults. They aren't necessary :)

Any way,I've been following Cap for,like,years and every scan I've seen supports it (even though I was a follower of Batman first,still am,and he's the guy that got me into comics). So I concur. There's more than enough evidence,so much so that it's basically a core aspect of the character over the years. His feats that have been a core aspect of him since his beginning and leave no room for debate,and the writer quote is just icing on the cake. Anyway,I'm on my little break,but I've gotta go real soon.

I wonder if someone is going to claim that I have a bias.

#98 Edited by Twix_Right_Side (2375 posts) - - Show Bio

@krauser99 said:

I'm glad the majority of people are viewing Cap in the correct manner. He is a super human like Deathstroke. Accept his feats in strength are much better then Slade.

The only silly idea in this thread is saying that Batman is a true Superhuman which is irrational that poster mujingo likes to post and even sillier saying his strength and durability is equal to Captain America.

While I agree that his feats are better than Deathstroke's (well,for one,Cap's been around a lot longer,and is more of a focus in his universe),I believe that it's not just strength,but more than that,too. Personally,everything in my opinion. But the gap isn't exactly Spider-man far. In a fight,it can definitely be argued for either side,but this isn't a fight,so....anyway,I agree that his feats are much better.

However,it can be said that,by feats,that Batman is a borderline superhuman or directly underneath the mark. By FEATS. On paper,he's definitely a peak human,and I don't think that that's changing anytime soon. But it isn't too far fetched to say that he's borderline,or at least,directly below the mark....like DIRECTLY below (because it can be argued). :)

#99 Posted by tg1982 (2733 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@tg1982 was one of the few cap fans in these parts able to have a civilized debate. How I wish he were here.

Here I am... and for the record, I'm actually kind of embarrassed to be a Cap fan right now...One guy (@muyjingo) has a different, and debatable, if not valid, opinion. And he gets ganged up on and bullied? It's kind of pathetic...I've debated with muyjingo on this topic at length and in depth, and not ONCE has a mod needed to come in here and tell us to calm down. Yet it happened here. I hope that you guys (some of which are my friends) can just take a step back and calm down, then be civil towards each other.

The only silly idea in this thread is saying that Batman is a true Superhuman which is irrational that poster mujingo likes to post and even sillier saying his strength and durability is equal to Captain America.

See, this is what I'm talking about. No where did muyjingo say Batman was super human. So that's wrong, and then you insult him by calling him irrational? The irony is that your tag team buddy is the one trying to make a claim of Batman being superhuman...

However,it can be said that,by feats,that Batman is a borderline superhuman or directly underneath the mark. By FEATS. On paper,he's definitely a peak human,and I don't think that that's changing anytime soon. But it isn't too far fetched to say that he's borderline,or at least,directly below the mark....like DIRECTLY below (because it can be argued). :)

Are you people so insecure that they can't handle someone with a disagreeing opinion? I'm mean for crying out loud, does it REALLY matter if a poster, whom you don't really know, thinks that Cap isn't superhuman? Will it mean the end of the world? This is why I hardly ever come on here any more...

@muyjingo if you want to hang out and talk you'll find me at another forum...if you want, let me know. I'll PM it to you, (I think it would be rude to post it on another comic forum).

Also, I think the comic in which the scan for Cap throwing the rock at snipers...is from Captain America: The Chosen and I'm pretty sure it's non-cannon, I might be wrong, but since at the end of it Cap dies by getting stabbed in the eye with a screw driver, by a terrorist.

There now my rant is done.

One last thing, if anyone is curious, my belief is that I think that Cap is in fact Peak of Human Potential, meaning no other human can be physically better than him (and still be human), but there are many that could be, and are, in his range/class, Batman being one of them.

#100 Edited by tg1982 (2733 posts) - - Show Bio