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#1 Posted by jointron33 (1902 posts) - - Show Bio

The treatment of Captain Mar......um....Shazam...in the New 52 is atrocious. It's essentially made with the same idiotic thought process that fueled the Ultimate Universe, which is, "Nise peepelz? Nise peepelz suk!!! Too b reuhlizztick, you has to be an EXTREME MEAN BLOOD DOUCHE!!!!!" like it's some 90s Liefeld Anti-hero. How in the hell are "fans" happy about this? Mary's not even his sister? Ugh........And get rid of those damn kids!!!!

#2 Posted by DrEgonSpengler (512 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree that Shazam is meh right now. The Wizard was a fool to give the power to such a brat.

Online
#3 Posted by gotwillpower (679 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't really mind it. It leaves room for character progression. Besides, the only criticism I have ever heard anyone give Captain Marvel is that he's too "goody-goody," so now they don't have anything to complain about.

#4 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32993 posts) - - Show Bio
@jointron33: Sooo you don't want any character development in your comics?
#5 Posted by TDK_1997 (14486 posts) - - Show Bio

Why the heck don't you like it.It looks new and that's how it should feel and look because it is part of the New 52,a reboot.

#6 Posted by jointron33 (1902 posts) - - Show Bio

People who complain that he was a good kid before have problems of their own.

#7 Posted by Skunkstein (591 posts) - - Show Bio

I like him much more now than before. His character (besides his power) made no sense whatsoever before, he was a mary sue character.

I always liked the idea of Captain Marvel because his character is essentially every boys dream, however he made no sense because no boy in the world would react to getting superpowers like Captain Marvel used to do, instead most would do exatly what we see him doing now, yet it have also been established that even though Billy is having a hard time fitting into normal social situations he still fights for what is right and shows something very, very few 15 year olds have.

Im sure they are just establishing his character, we are seeing a character development, ofcause he is not going to charge the people he save forever, for me its a no brainer that he firts starts to get into his superhero personality when Black Adam attacks.

He is a 15 year old kid who just gained super powers, of course he should have fun with them at first, anything els would be dissapointing.

#8 Posted by cloudzackvincent (1026 posts) - - Show Bio

i never liked him..until the new 52

#9 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (5216 posts) - - Show Bio
@gotwillpower

I don't really mind it. It leaves room for character progression. Besides, the only criticism I have ever heard anyone give Captain Marvel is that he's too "goody-goody," so now they don't have anything to complain about.

This.
Him acting like A choir boy doesn't make for a good story there's nothing there. Seeing him go from a volatile ,paranoid kid with abandonment issues (from being orphaned, foster care etc. ) to someone who can realize his potential for good in himself and others is the best part of the story. Throw in him being 13 (?) in a grown mans superpowerful body and you've got a winner.
#10 Posted by Razero (336 posts) - - Show Bio

@WaveMotionCannon: He's 15.

#11 Posted by Kallarkz (3303 posts) - - Show Bio

He's awesome.

Justice League #0 was awesome.

His back stories have been awesome.

Awesome one last time for effect.

#12 Posted by Dernman (14790 posts) - - Show Bio

I would prefer it if they made him somewhere inbetween what was before and what is now.

#13 Posted by Dhor (282 posts) - - Show Bio

haters gonna hate

#14 Edited by finiteman (8 posts) - - Show Bio

@jointron33:

That was my initial thought as well, JT33, but I have cooled down a bit.

But only a bit.

<rant>

The reality is there have not been many good Captain Marvel stories since DC gained control of the characters. While it may tear up fans of the Fawcett stuff to read this take on Captain Marvel, it is all perspective.

I have a friend who is 10 years younger than me who is a fan of the NFL Saints. To me, I remember the "Aints" and their inability to break .500 in the 1970's. He thinks of them as one of the strongest teams in the NFL in his lifetime. Is he wrong? No. It is all perspective.

To a fan who grew up reading DC's various attempts to shoehorn Captain Marvel into the Batman Universe, this probably seems like a really good take. To that fan, the only Captain Marvel they have ever read is likely DC's various soulless attempts to revamp Captain Marvel. (I did like the 1970's Beck stuff alright and did like the 1970's& 1980's don newton stuff though..so maybe I can be "reasonable" on this.)

Generally Under DC's ownership, CM is a 3rd tier character on par with DC's equally empty interpretation of Captain Atom or Firestorm.

To a fan who has actually ready some of the better Fawcett CM stories, we understand why Captain Marvel was once doubling Superman's sales numbers. Captain Marvel was the Harry Potter of his day. Concepts that good have timeless appeals if they are treated with respect. It seems a total shame that DC has again totally blown the ability to make any money off this character.

This Billy isn't kind. There is very little likeable about him. He has lightning powers and apparently will have magic abilities. Freddy Freeman has blond hair. His sister may not be his sister. A different wizard gave him his powers. The flashpoint kids (who I don't particularly like) might be integrated into his mythos.

Oh yea....and he isn't "Captain Marvel"...

I think this is the part the people high up at DC really missed. He isn't Captain Marvel. At a certain point he just isn't the same character any more.

What DC may have been going for may have already been pulled off better in the Ultraverse's "Prime" series...especially the first 4-8 issues. The first few issues actually successfully captured a lot of the old CM magic and energy in a way that appealed to modern readers. That is what DC has been after. It went to hell quickly though.

DC would be smart to re-brand this take on Billy Batson as "Thunder" or "Captain Thunder" (wiki the name, it is an interesting history at DC) before they destroy their ability to backtrack from this character. (What I mean by this is that if you started putting out Batman comics after Flashpoint that starred totally different versions of those characters and they proved less popular than the earlier versions, you would feel some need to incorporate some elements of the new takes to satisfy fans of the new versions when you brought back the original. That could damage the uniqueness of the old versions. It is just a slippery slope.)

This take on CM may end up being as popular as say Firestorm, but a closer take to the original could be literally be the parent company Warner Brother's top comic character revenue generator. It was the Harry Potter of its day.

I am befuddled that DC's leadership can do something as insightful as a clean reboot wiping away all but about 400 characters to start the new 52 and then they immediately go back to the mistakes of the last 30 years.

They immediately start shaving back characters so they fit into a universe with Batman. They run out marginal characters like Cyborg and Hellstrike because certain creators like them, not because those characters ever sold or make a good foundation for a universe. That's just seems like bad business to me.

Some have likened some elements for the new52 to Heroes Reborn due to Lee's influence. I think the parallels between the treatment of the Marvel Family today and (Rob Liefield's) Captain America and Bucky then are pretty strong. Long time CA fans felt (and long time CM fans feel) a lot of disgust at what we feel are core conceptual underpinnings of the characters that have been shaved away to fit the resulting character into only a marginally entertaining story.

The new52 should have been about finding the DCU's key characters, carefully working to incorporate the key elements and supporting characters that were featured at the peak of those characters' popularity, and use all of that to build a more dynamic DCU. Strip out the clutter, but create a universe that can easily support all kinds of stories without making some stories seem contrived or forcing some creators to really limit their creativity to abide by the "rules of the universe".

To me that is just good business sense. WB should want an optimal backdrop in which to create stories. WB should want their characters exposed into the public in the best light possible.

With no spite meant to the creators who are doing their best to squeeze a square peg into what I see as a preconceived round hole, this take could potentially (and unintentionally) make a great replacement for the now non-existent Superboy prime - a petulant, one dimensional demi-god in a world of much more fragile characters.

There is a good bit of a risk here that new Billy becomes a "reboot Jason Todd"-type character. The fans hated JT and eventually voted for his death. It doesn't seem that unlikely that the fans will bail on this unlikeable take either and not buy issues featuring him. Unlikeable characters do not sell.

WB should not want the risk out there to overwrite what is potentially a very valuable asset.

Or if they insist on continuing down the path of trying to integrate him into the Justice League mythos, why not take the character far away from the CM mythos? Strip away all the "Captain Marvel" features. You want him to be a lightning bolt wearing, lightning crying, lightning throwing wizard named Shazam, that is fine, but drop all the Strength of Hercules, Power or Zeus, et all.

Like most I hate the costume, but if you take this path you can make it even more "lightningy" if you want without any long term ramifications. It only helps differentiate this take from the original CM, which is your valuable copy.

If you want differentiation from Superman, don't make "Shazam" anywhere near as strong as Superman. Make him the JLA's equivalency of Dr. Fate. (Fate once went through an incarnation where he was basically a somewhat strong flying hero with a touch of magic too, in order to similarly differentiate him from fellow JSA member, the Spectre.)

That leaves DC and WB to free to bring back the original Captain Marvel at any time in an alternate universe like the new Earth2. That would likely work much, much better for the parent company in movie terms anyway.

</Rant>

#15 Posted by jointron33 (1902 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyone who didn't like the REAL Captain Marvel(and not that blonde bimbo Danvers), go read Malibu's Prime and call it a day.

#16 Posted by Mbecks14 (2068 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm torn on the New Shazam. I like the story behind what they're doing, and the new look but I do NOT like the bratty Billy Batson. What I always loved about Billy was his optimism. But i like the new look and I am interested in where the story is going.

#17 Posted by Wboy (442 posts) - - Show Bio

I like him....but that cape....THE CAPE.

Anyway other than his fanboys who are always beating on Superman...it's just the cape....

#18 Posted by Z3RO180 (6348 posts) - - Show Bio

@jointron33:

#19 Posted by MadeinBangladesh (6221 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm loving SHAZAM in the new 52. Maybe beucz I'm new to cimcs.
Justice League #0 was Awesome 5/5

#20 Posted by 18batman (36 posts) - - Show Bio

I just wish Billy acted better than he did. He yells at another orphan whose parents didn't even want her saying "we're not family, I have a tragic past wah wah wah" There are so many people who suffered losses and yet they try to move on and they let the tragic experience turn them into good people. look at Harry Potter, his parents were murdered and does he spent the novels moping like a baby? no, he becomes a nice guy and tries to do the best with what life gave him.

#21 Posted by cameron83 (6753 posts) - - Show Bio

just a little heads up,but what importance does mary being his sister have,i swear the people who dislike the new 52 dislike it over the most insignificant things...it's ridiculous

#22 Posted by Ms. Omega (4404 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Billy in the new 52 will become a better person later on. Who knows after getting his powers might change him and make him the old Billy we used to know and his interaction with the Justice League might make him more empathetic towards humanity. I am actually enjoying it a lot, its still too early to tell give it time.

#23 Posted by jointron33 (1902 posts) - - Show Bio

@cameron83: Ok, COME ON!!!!! I understand some fans complain about stupid, but just DAMN. That's like making Sue and Johnny just friends or some crap.

#24 Posted by G_Money_Christmas (881 posts) - - Show Bio

I've never really known anything about Billy Batson but I really liked it. I hope they'll eventually give him his own series and I like how they chose a bratty kid. He even told the Wizard that there are no perfect people and he saw the good in the kid.

#25 Posted by MisterKetch (253 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow Im super glad I found this forum, I was wondering why everyone was yelling about Tim Drake's new origin yet the Shazam story was supposed to be popular while doing the same thing as what Lobdell did with Tim but a 1000% more.

I don't have much experience with the original Billy but from what I knew of his personality I loved it. He was a sweet kid who wanted to do right and had a strict moral code that fit in a child's black and white world view of good and evil. Whose to say how an average kid would react to getting super powers we can hypothesize sure but at the end of the day it would be an individual response not something across the board.

Even if he was way to nice and a mary sue character there definitely could have been a better middle ground then going to the polar opposite.

#26 Edited by finiteman (8 posts) - - Show Bio

Harry Potter is the CM of today. CM used to outsell superman by multiples.

The idea that a kind hearted Billy, what some fans disparingly refer to as a "pollyana" Billy, won't sell is disproved right there.

#27 Posted by Baberaham_Lincoln (921 posts) - - Show Bio

Billy evolves from a twat to an ANGELL hurhur... but seriously. I don't care, it's the New 52, thus it's normal for drastic changes since it's a reboot =/

#28 Edited by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

Dc seems to be trying its best to give Billy Batson some new personality to try to find new customers. I prefer another reboot and just make Billy an older teen or adult because child super heroes are already obsolete. Also have to fix the dumb disguise of Captain Marvel which was copied from the dumb disguise of Superman.

#29 Posted by cloudzackvincent (1026 posts) - - Show Bio

its too soon to throw a fit... let the character develop a bit before passing judgement

#30 Posted by RumbleMan_Exe (1543 posts) - - Show Bio

Maybe it will show how he becomes from an 'reason to abort kid' brat to a nice kid

character development

#31 Posted by jointron33 (1902 posts) - - Show Bio

@RumbleMan_Exe: there's never a reason to abort a kid

#32 Posted by Onemoreposter (3957 posts) - - Show Bio

@jointron33 said:

@RumbleMan_Exe: there's never a reason to abort a kid

Unless a magical genie shows you that your unborn child will act like new 52 Billy, at which point it's all aboard the abortion express.

#33 Posted by Video_Martian (5645 posts) - - Show Bio

Billy's a brat now but he might become more respectable later...

#34 Posted by Billy Batson (57802 posts) - - Show Bio

<.<
BB

#35 Posted by GunGunW (996 posts) - - Show Bio

Eh, I guess I have to see him for myself

#36 Posted by ComicStooge (12075 posts) - - Show Bio

@jointron33 said:

@RumbleMan_Exe: there's never a reason to abort a kid

Agreed.

#37 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29499 posts) - - Show Bio

@jointron33 said:

@RumbleMan_Exe: there's never a reason to abort a kid

Yes there are.

Lots of them.

#38 Posted by Cole_Mercer (214 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain Marvel/Shazam is one of the worst comic book characters ever, so i'm not surprised.

#39 Posted by Final Arrow (24359 posts) - - Show Bio

@Billy Batson said:

<.<
BB

>.>

FA

#40 Posted by SandMan_ (4528 posts) - - Show Bio
@Billy Batson said:

<.<
BB

Well what do you think? :P
#41 Posted by tomlikesfries (4629 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kallarkz said:

He's awesome.

Justice League #0 was awesome.

His back stories have been awesome.

Awesome one last time for effect.

Exactly.

Online
#42 Posted by jobbernos (1420 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dhor said:

haters gonna hate

#43 Posted by Hazlenaut (1960 posts) - - Show Bio

he suppose to be goody goody. That is what makes him. several bad stories were because they did not put that he is a goody goody. Is it so hard to make some one a nice person? there is reason why people went off comics and read manga for a while. the problem is that he was he looks too much like superman in combat wise and appearance which make it seem like a recolor. the lightning throw is a nice touch but he lost what made him character with the change of his personality. this can be fixed with plot device excuse. It has been done before in his series. you that is the excuse they are going with since it been use in his issues. how about blaming on the yellow scary bug again?

he needs a better name. Shazam is not working for several reasons one that is battle cry for his change or to summon lightning to attack. The joke cant say their name was already used for another character that is in the marvel group. I know Marvel has rights on the labeling of marvel name but you can try something a kid would think of. the change out fit works but name needs work.

#44 Posted by gotwillpower (679 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hazlenaut said:

he suppose to be goody goody. That is what makes him. several bad stories were because they did not put that he is a goody goody. Is it so hard to make some one a nice person? there is reason why people went off comics and read manga for a while. the problem is that he was he looks too much like superman in combat wise and appearance which make it seem like a recolor. the lightning throw is a nice touch but he lost what made him character with the change of his personality. this can be fixed with plot device excuse. It has been done before in his series. you that is the excuse they are going with since it been use in his issues. how about blaming on the yellow scary bug again?

he needs a better name. Shazam is not working for several reasons one that is battle cry for his change or to summon lightning to attack. The joke cant say their name was already used for another character that is in the marvel group. I know Marvel has rights on the labeling of marvel name but you can try something a kid would think of. the change out fit works but name needs work.

"he suppose to be goody goody." You're using circular reasoning. Look it up; its a logical fallacy. He was "goody goody" pre-New 52. Now that they have rebooted the universe, he is "supposed to be" whatever the writers want.

"That is what makes him." Being a boy scout was central to Shazam pre-New 52, but clearly that has changed. Now, far more complex relationships and motivations make up Billy Batson's character.

"several bad stories were because they did not put that he is a goody goody." Which stories? How are they bad? How can you be sure they are bad because of Billy Batson's demeanor? Couldn't there have been other factors which played a role in the story's failures?

"Is it so hard to make some one a nice person?" Whoever said that Billy Batson isn't a nice person? In the New 52, he uses his powers to stop crimes. He gives a crippled boy the opportunity to fly. I'd say he's rather nice.

I could go on. As is often true on comic book forums, fans that resist change often do so unreasonably.

#45 Posted by Hazlenaut (1960 posts) - - Show Bio

@gotwillpower: Growth is more desirable. There is a difference between growth and change. Growth is the development of obstacles he /she faced and either gain experience from that moment. Change is just taking a different route. Toss all the experience away as start from a clean slate only to redo them again. The characters are most likely taking Sisyphus route for that small change. Ok this new character named Billy Batson let’s roll with it. After while there will be comparison which we ask was it worth it. There are times when it is needed I cannot lie I about that for example: when several years have passed they need to start over as many nearly forgotten about them. There is some good ideas that come from the change as there are some things do not age gracefully.

You right we do judge it too soon after hearing the words going for sexier route for all the characters it does leave moment of unease as this feels like a pathetic attempt to be mature. We should give it time after several issues the judgment needs to be made. Is change worth it? We hope they and we learned from our mistakes. We do just very slowly.

The getting out of comfort zone is a problem for the fan and creators, so are forgetting stuff that get lost when the change is made. Is it making big change or are they just following same route, again. this kind of thing take while to figure

#46 Posted by Manute117 (57 posts) - - Show Bio

We need Shazam to be a bad ass ..not this little brat. I will say Adam looks pretty kool.....

#47 Posted by Ironhawk22 (320 posts) - - Show Bio

@jointron33 said:

The treatment of Captain Mar......um....Shazam...in the New 52 is atrocious. It's essentially made with the same idiotic thought process that fueled the Ultimate Universe, which is, "Nise peepelz? Nise peepelz suk!!! Too b reuhlizztick, you has to be an EXTREME MEAN BLOOD DOUCHE!!!!!" like it's some 90s Liefeld Anti-hero. How in the hell are "fans" happy about this? Mary's not even his sister? Ugh........And get rid of those damn kids!!!!

I am not a fan of new Billy Batson, it's unoriginal and cliché. I hate how people are saying "All teen characters must be extremely angst-y or they're lame!". However I am a huge fan of the Ultimate Universe, and the only really unlikable characters are the Ultimates. Peter, Miles, Kitty, Bobby and Johnny are extremely likable characters.

#48 Posted by Ironhawk22 (320 posts) - - Show Bio

@finiteman said:

Harry Potter is the CM of today. CM used to outsell superman by multiples.

The idea that a kind hearted Billy, what some fans disparingly refer to as a "pollyana" Billy, won't sell is disproved right there.

Harry Potter was never angst-y outside of the fifth book, which was the worst. Sure there was some angst sprinkled in(like most forms of media) but outside of the fifth book, the series was never as angst-y as new Billy Batson.

#49 Posted by BlackWind (5669 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ironhawk22: Not to mention Harry just lost another parent in his life. That's three. Harry had every right to angst.

Bad comparison.

#50 Edited by jphulk26 (1311 posts) - - Show Bio

@gotwillpower: @jointron33:

I have to say I really didn´t like it at first and most of my reactions to New 52 material, especially Wonder Woman has been with anger. But I think I´m starting to get what Johns is doing, and at least he has held on to most of the original origin, unlike Azzerrello with Wonder Woman. I want Billy to start getting nicer, showing he´s not a deuche, but reading Shazaam, I just think he´s trying to give Billy more dimesions and show how he grows into becoming a hero. But I do understand your frustrations with New 52. For me what they did to Wonder Womans mythology and origin is unforgivable, so I can see if you were a Shazaam or Captain Marvel fan before, making Billy seem like an angry little brat could be frustrating, cause after all why would the Wizard have picked him?

@Mbecks14 said:

I'm torn on the New Shazam. I like the story behind what they're doing, and the new look but I do NOT like the bratty Billy Batson. What I always loved about Billy was his optimism. But i like the new look and I am interested in where the story is going.

I always liked that as well and I think that´s what distinguished him and why he was always a hero I wanted to start reading. but I think John is trying to show him growing into that though. How he´s brave andhe´s really a good kid underneath, its just his parents abandoning him has been really hard on him. At least that the vibe I get. And as I said, changing someones attitude to fit more with the times is not anywhere near as brutal the act of vandalism that has been committed on Wonder Woman by Azzerrello.