Zoom & Flash Vs. X-Men

Phoenix?

@CitizenBane said:

@spiderbuck said:

@CitizenBane said:

@spiderbuck said:

@CitizenBane said:

@spiderbuck said:

Was Black Hand grabbing Flash in Blackest Night PIS?

Which issue?

I don't know the issue, but Barry was having a run at Nekron and was stopped just short by BH. He was held down by ghouls and was aboIut to be impaled when Wally saved the day.

Black Hand was functioning as Nekron's tether to that reality at the time (since Nekron's main problem is that he cannot exist in a universe of the living). He presumably had some kind of power upgrade, Barry himself remarked that Black Hand had gone through more than just a wardrobe change. And he wasn't bloodlusted in that instance, he is here. A couple of issues prior to that, Barry was running circles around the Black Lantern Martian Manhunter.

Him and the Atom both, lol. But yeah, that's a nice feat. I was more impressed with how he snatched a black ring right off Firestorm's finger.

But yeah, I think Hope has a chance here, and if the Pheonix Force amp up Kiden's "stop" powers she'd win, imo if the X-Men had prep and Flash and Zoom were not blood lusted.

Flash wins. With Zoom it's just not fair.

Is Kiden even alive anymore? I think she died in Second Coming or something.

You're right. Seeing as how proximity alone is enough for Hope to mimic their powers, she could theoretically use those powers (among others) against them if she could mimic non mutants. Which is still up in the air. Until then, yeah she loses then without Kiden, and Velocidad's powers are limited by the negative side effects. Unless the power of the Phoenix Force could negate the adverse side effects? That's all too speculative though. Flash wins, with Zoom they stomp.

X-MEN

Phoenix?

Is it the current X-Men?

Or is it all the X-Men ever?

Because, that makes a pretty big difference. I'm gonna say that Zoom and Flash win if its the current X-Men, but lose if it's the entire X-Men roster ever.

I think Zoom and Flash is overkill here lol. One is hard to deal with, two at once vs. all X-men? I think they'd blow thru everyone just about.

@blackadamFTW said:

Is it the current X-Men?

Or is it all the X-Men ever?

Because, that makes a pretty big difference. I'm gonna say that Zoom and Flash win if its the current X-Men, but lose if it's the entire X-Men roster ever.

they don't. the speedsters win either way. seeing as how wally has done this:

you're not going to tell me the X-men roster has more than half a million people.

@stonerthps said:

@GhostRider29 said:

Phoenix?

This. You can't tell me one of the top psychic wouldn't feel or sense them and instantly do something about it. She would know. Then they wouldn't exist.

BFR'ed or dead before they could compute what object went through their brains.

@mark5 said:

@Supermanwithatan01 said:

This is spite...

agreed.

@CitizenBane said:

Is Kiden even alive anymore? I think she died in Second Coming or something.

Kind of. Her future self died in Messiah War. But it's not clear when she was taken to the future, and her current self appeared in one of the X-23 oneshots. So it's possible she's still alive in the present timeline.

Not that it matters - she was never one of the X-Men.

@JediXMan said:

@CitizenBane said:

Is Kiden even alive anymore? I think she died in Second Coming or something.

Kind of. Her future self died in Messiah War. But it's not clear when she was taken to the future, and her current self appeared in one of the X-23 oneshots. So it's possible she's still alive in the present timeline.

Not that it matters - she was never one of the X-Men.

i doubt her power works on the same level as Zoom anyway.

and without morals, Wally could transfer his speed to Zoom, and theoretically.... that'd be so unstoppable...

@nickthedevil:

True.

However, X-Man would be a serious problem for them - and I believe this thread was made before Nate's depower. And Shaman Nate can't be beaten physically.

@JediXMan said:

@nickthedevil:

True.

However, X-Man would be a serious problem for them - and I believe this thread was made before Nate's depower. And Shaman Nate can't be beaten physically.

BFR?

@nickthedevil:

How?

@JediXMan said:

@nickthedevil:

How?

Speed Force?

I'm just gonna go ahead and say they can be as fast as they want, but there's no way they can kill Iceman.. He might not be able to touch them in return, but they won't be ridding the fight of Bobby any time soon.

@XEL820:

@XEL820 said:

I'm just gonna go ahead and say they can be as fast as they want, but there's no way they can kill Iceman.. He might not be able to touch them in return, but they won't be ridding the fight of Bobby any time soon.

Flash can turn him into an ice sculpture

I agree, there's no way Iceman can tag Flash or Zoom. Plus Flash could just vibrate his molecules and go intangible

Neither of them could do anything to Iceman, either. He's a consciousness. His body is just a meat or ice puppet to him. That's the thing with omega-level mutants, they all have limitless potential and "immortality." Neither Flash nor Zoom could do crap to Iceman because as fast as they can move, as strong as they can punch, etc., they can't touch a consciousness. And seeing as this is normal Bobby, it'll stay just that. Neither side will KO the other, but seeing as the duo take out pretty much every other X-Men, I'll just cave and give this victory to them.

oh and @vuviper

By the same token, Iceman can do the same thing haha. Freeze the battlefield to near Absolute Zero, stopping nearly all kinetic movement in molecules. Doesn't matter how much speed is there. When there is a lack of entropy, there is no speed. But alas, Bobby always has a grand showing of CIS and would probably never think of that. Restating my previous point, neither side can do anything to the other.

@Vaeternus

Never said he could haha. I said "He might not be able to touch them in return, but they won't be ridding the fight of Bobby any time soon."

Besides, read what I said to vuviper above. Iceman's power doesn't lie within ice, really, at all. He's a hydrokinetic with thermo and cryokinesis.That means even if the Flash is intangible his molecules are still there. Take away the energy from those molecules and the Flash is just another popsicle. Now keep in mind I'm not saying this is how Iceman will win, but merely that, that's the way his powers work and it's the potential that lies within it. But Iceman is afraid of his own power so he always fights on a level much lower than what he is capable of. As a result, I'd place 50 on Iceman trying to hit the duo with ice shards instead of actually doing something.. powerful, for lack of a better term.

@XEL820: It doesn't matter much since Flash could do it to iceman first. And he'd be familiar with the tactic because of Captain Cold. Along that note, I think you have to actually go to absolute 0 to slow down the Flash.

@vuviper

But the thing is, Iceman doesn't need a physical body. He can exist as ambient water vapor simultaneously everywhere on the planet, or anywhere with water, for that matter. The next point I'm going to bring up is based purely on what he has potential to do, not what he is currently capable of, so don't take it to heart to seriously haha. Anyways, as vapor, Iceman can sense water anywhere, and transfer his consciousness from one body of water to another. If he were written that powerful, Iceman could easily will himself into Flash's body and freeze it from within. But again, simply potential. There really is no way Bobby would do something like that unless the rules state he's bloodlusted. Even then, I'm not sure if his mind could keep up with the speed Flash can travel at. As for your second point about absolute zero; to be honest, I wouldn't doubt that lol.

Shaman Nate existing as pure psionic energy could have a plethora of waves in regard to ending zoom and the flash

he could warp reality, step in and out of time, incinerate the flash and zoom on the atomic level

destroy their minds, ect

and while doing those, there is no way they can physically harm him

Not sure why people are bringing up Shaman Nate when this thread was made after he was depowered in Dark X-Men.

@CitizenBane said:

Not sure why people are bringing up Shaman Nate when this thread was made after he was depowered in Dark X-Men.

this was after ?

had no idea

@XEL82, how is Iceman going to touch Flash or Zoom though when he's no where near their speed much less tag them if they go intangible though? I just don't see it happening. I think they K.O. bobby before he knows what hit him honestly. That's true that Flash may still be there(unless he goes full out speed force then bobby's dead) but still, he's like a billion times faster then Bobby. As for Zoom, well he can stop time and such so I think that explains itself. Flash also holds back half the time, Zoom however not so much. Perhaps in some stories he could "do better" but he's a villian, he won't think twice to kill Bobby.

@Vaeternus

In my post at the top of this page I already mentioned "I'm not sure if his mind could keep up with the speed Flash can travel at," so I'm not going to bother arguing that.

That aside, I don't think you understand the fact that you can't kill Iceman through normal means. And yes, vibrating into his body or exploding it are both normal means. Bobby is an Omega level mutant. That means his mutation grants him limitless potential along the lines of Jean Grey, Franklin Storm, and David Haller to name a few. He is also a consciousness. I can't stress that enough. His human body is a meat puppet to him. His ice bodies are ice puppets to him. He is water. As long as there is ambient water, he can transfer his mind into it. He can reform himself from just a single H2O compound, Iceman can slowly reform himself. and As far as we know there will always be water, at least on this planet. Water has even been discovered in space. The only way for them to get rid of him, is Flash creating a vortex to suck Bobby into an alternate dimension, thereby BFRing him and "defeating" him.

@XEL82, I understand full well. I'm merely saying Iceman isn't a god or something like you're making him out to be. Sure, he's impressive but he's not the most powerful X-man, and he's still not faster then Zoom or Flash. They're meta-humans which usually are far more powerful then the typical, average mutant.

Omega to me just means more powerful but can still be killed. Like someone mentioned in the Jean vs. Superman topic, if Superman is "serious" he can merely speed blitz her and good night Jean before she can think of doing anything telekinetically.

You do know that Flash and Zoom are both faster then Superman right? And I'm pretty sure Superman would destroy Iceman in a few different ways. And Iceman being able to slowly heal himself just proves that Flash or Zoom can take him apart in seconds and toss his body all over the place. Even if that's true about them getting rid of Bobby that way which I'm not 100% convinced that's the only way, what is Bobby going to do to Flash and Zoom? Guys who have taken on people like Superman, Doomsday, the rest of the JL at times etc among other people that surpass Bobby...

My whole argument isn't that Bobby can defeat Flash and Zoom. My argument is they they can't hurt him. Superman could fly him into the sun, but he'd just find a source of water somewhere in the universe and reform himself. This might take seconds, it could take centuries. Who knows. All I'm saying is that they can't kill him, per say. Iceman isn't a God, I recognize that. However, he's far closer to immortality than a non-Phoenix Jean Grey will ever be. But at the same time, Bobby, even at his peak, is doubtful to be able to attack or react at the speed Flash and Zoom can move. So like I said in my first post, stalemate. Like I said in my last post, Flash can BFR him. But he won't kill him. That's all haha.

@XEL820 said:

My whole argument isn't that Bobby can defeat Flash and Zoom. My argument is they they can't hurt him. Superman could fly him into the sun, but he'd just find a source of water somewhere in the universe and reform himself. This might take seconds, it could take centuries. Who knows. All I'm saying is that they can't kill him, per say. Iceman isn't a God, I recognize that. However, he's far closer to immortality than a non-Phoenix Jean Grey will ever be. But at the same time, Bobby, even at his peak, is doubtful to be able to attack or react at the speed Flash and Zoom can move. So like I said in my first post, stalemate. Like I said in my last post, Flash can BFR him. But he won't kill him. That's all haha.

Flash could still speed steal him and turn him into a statue which would then render him helpless.

@Supermanwithatan01 said:

This is spite...

This.

@chriconz123

I really don't know how to be any more clear with what I'm saying. Iceman doesn't need a body. His body is a puppet to him. He is ambient water. He is a consciousness that can transfer his mind into any body of water, no matter how large or small. What's Flash going to do? Steal the speed of all ambient water? That just makes it ten times easier for Iceman to create Absolute Zero temperatures in which even the Flash wouldn't be able to move.

@XEL820 said:

@chriconz123

I really don't know how to be any more clear with what I'm saying. Iceman doesn't need a body. His body is a puppet to him. He is ambient water. He is a consciousness that can transfer his mind into any body of water, no matter how large or small. What's Flash going to do? Steal the speed of all ambient water? That just makes it ten times easier for Iceman to create Absolute Zero temperatures in which even the Flash wouldn't be able to move.

No, he's going to steal the speed of Iceman. He will not be able to think to transfer his body elsewhere or to do anything for that matter, thus being incapacitated

@vuviper

Ohhh. I wasn't aware he could do that. I thought his speed steal was along the lines of simply stopping kinetic motion.

@XEL820 said:

@vuviper

Ohhh. I wasn't aware he could do that. I thought his speed steal was along the lines of simply stopping kinetic motion.

Well to be fair, I haven't read too much Flash, so I don't know if he's ever actually done so. But I was under the impression that the Inertia example he purposefully left Inertia mind at normal speed so he could suffer. When he lends speed though he can speed up their minds and body so I don't know why it'd be any different.

@XEL820: Also now that I think about it, I don't know if Iceman has ever cooled something with as much kinetic energy as the Flash would have anyway, when running at light speed Flash would have the kinetic energy or a 100 megaton explosion (Ignoring his increased mass)

@Xel82, Ok well my argument is that Flash and Zoom can hurt or rid Iceman via their abilities, their kinetic energy surpasses Iceman by far...despite his class of mutant power. Speed Force>>>OM on top of that Zoom can stop time, and thus freeze bobby while they kill him(no pun intended lol) As for killing, Flash you're right won't just like Bobby wouldn't kill Flash most likely but Zoom however? Different story...he'd probably not hesitate to kill someone if he had to.

THIS IS COMPLETE SPITE!!!

Professor Zoom or Wally West solos.

Noone on the X men can even see anyone on Team 1, let alone touch them.

Xavier couldn't do anything because Wally is immune to telepathic attacks because he thinks at light speed.

X-men + Zoom and Flash solo's.

@majestic99 said:

THIS IS COMPLETE SPITE!!!

Professor Zoom or Wally West solos.

Noone on the X men can even see anyone on Team 1, let alone touch them.

Lol really so many X men can take them down

If every single X-men, then this should be locked for spite; as the speedster would get stomped.

X-Men curbstomp

Zoom and flash could literally solo.

Are they aware of each other? Can zoom and the flash go faster than the speed of...thought? Do any of the x men have the phoenix force?

There are a few omega level mutants that would be a problem for the speedsters, iceman/Bobby Drake and Jean Grey with the phoenix, most omega level mutant can not be killed in the conventional way. Iceman would reassemble his atoms if they get destroyed, or make copies of himself, and Jean has auto TK shields, cosmic awareness and strong molecule disintegration.