Zeus(marvel) VS Raiden(MK)

Either this topic have 5 Pages of pure fanboyism or full of good arguments...

The main reason why this is still talked about is simple, some people realize that there's two different Raiden's and some have no idea and think Raiden is just a "mortal with electrical powers". Obviously, Zeus is impressive but then so is Raiden when you think about what he's done and capable of.

@onilordasmodeus said:

@isaac_clarke:The named realms of the MKU are: ChaosRealm, Earthrealm, Edenia, Heaven, Netherrealm, Orderrealm, Outworld, Vaeternus, and Zaterra. The expanded MKU includes: Hinpar, Ilkan, Nightmare Realm, and Xaa.The Nexus is a realm as well, but it seems that it is just more of a personal audience chamber, or a watch tower, from where the EGs watch and conduct business the the gods who reside in the realms. The EGs themselved exist in the void between the realms.There is also a mysterious realm called the Rellim Ocanep which really hasn't played a part but is still counted as a realm in existance.And I know your last post was directed at @Vaeternus, but it just seems you are missing the whole point and scope of what the Elder Gods did and who the One Being is. The EGs don't sit back and just choose not to fight because their lazy or "too powerful", even though they do feel the petty squabbles that go on between mortals are just beneath them; no. Since the Realms are comprised of the One Being's essence, they know that it is still "alive" and that it want's to be reborn. They don't get involved for fear/respect of its power, and the possiblity that they could be corrupted and Fall like Shinnok did. The EGs are the ONLY true defense that the Universe has to stave off the One Being from reforming, or defeating it if/when it does.That being said, the EGs do appoint persons to uphold their will in the realms such as Raiden, Fujin, Scorpion, and others. When things start getting out of control, like in Armageddon or when Onaga got the Kamidogu, they will give power to those they deem worthy and able to carry out their will. They are omnipotent for all intents and purposes as their combined power was able to over power all the power of the universe focused into one entity. You seem to want to quantify the One being as a "strong guy" when in reality the EG's defeated TOAA and became the NEW TOAA.Check out the MK Decpetion Onaga Ending:

Loading Video...

In this ending the EGs loose, but you think Odin and the Odin force could have beaten him? You say that Odin and his brothers did what the EGs did? I can't find anything stating that Odin beat a TOAA level being.

Well said, haha I was going to post that video! I just watched it, of course Onaga's Ending isn't canon(but i does show a GOOD interpretation and explanation of just how powerful the Elder Gods are and the Kamidogu granting reality warping) is pretty crazy and taking over the entire Universe.

If it's mortal Raiden, then yeah. But in Raiden's MK1 ending (for what it's worth), he turns the tournament into an immortal one after he gets bored and Earth is literally destroyed. Have a nice day!

@FourthDeity said:

This is still up for debate? Jesus...

Still no quantifiable feats from the Mortal Kombat side I see with idiots claiming that the Elder Gods are on the level of The One Above All? Considering how Mortal Kombat barely counts as a multiverse and said previous TOAA can be defeated without specific details involving the Kamidogu, how the hell is that 'proof' of being TOAA level.

"Obviously, Zeus is impressive but then so is Raiden when you think about what he's done and capable of."

Okay.... what did Raiden do that's so impressive that can be quantifiably compared to Zeus instead of a vague interpretation of what his other people managed to do in the past?

@onilordasmodeus said:

@Lou_Cypher: You seem to be trying to pick a fight, but sorry, and maybe it's me, but I don't uderstand a anything that you wrote. It seems though that you have a problem with me using the term TOAA. Just to reiterate, I'm not saying a single Elder God is/was TOAA, I said the collective strength of the Elder Gods was able to overpower the One Being, the "TOAA" of MK, and that THEY essentially became the new TOAA of the MKU. What is your issue with that?

But they were in fear of their lives when Onaga was going to fuse together the kamidogus to overthrow them, the One Being and the Elder Gods can't be both omnipotent, that would be a contradict to the definition of the term, but I do agree they are much more powerful than a Skyfather level being. They are Eternal in it's total sense and have been shown to work on a universal scale, Onaga's ending described him as omnipotent when he fused the kamidogus to gain the power of the One Being, I disagree with the term being used to describe him due to the fact that the One Being was defeated by the Elder Gods, but it does give us a good gauge of what his power level is like and I believe the video even went on to state that he had the abilities to alter and recreate the realms as he saw fit.

Regular Raiden gets one-shotted by one of Zeus's lackys, while Elder God Raiden should win.

@onilordasmodeus said:

@nick_hero22:We agree, but a question though: What does fear have to do with anything, and why can't their be multiple omnipotent entities?The way I understand it, Omnipotence is nothing more than unlimited power and influence. I haven't seen or read anything saying that there can only be one omnipotent being.

om·nip·o·tent

[om-nip-uh-tuhnt] Show IPA

adjective1.almightyorinfiniteinpower,asGod.

2.havingverygreatorunlimitedauthorityorpower.

@onilordasmodeus said:

@nick_hero22:I understand with the definitoin is saying, but that definition is in regards to the Christian notion of God. If 2 entities (yin and yang) are essentially equal in omnipotence, meaning they both can do what ever then want, but yang finds a way to shatter yin, were they both not omnipotent?

Omnipotence mean all-powerful, you can't be all-powerful when another entity is omnipotent as well, so therefore a contradiction lies. Only one entity can be all-powerful.

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:

If it's mortal Raiden, then yeah. But in Raiden's MK1 ending (for what it's worth), he turns the tournament into an immortal one after he gets bored and Earth is literally destroyed. Have a nice day!

Yeah, Raiden was pretty much a D%$ in MK 1 lol with his ending.

@Lou,

Obviously you don't follow MK...

Actually, yeah there are and we've posted them again Elder Gods creating the entire MKU is easily on par with anything Presence or TOAA have done...how is that not a quantifiable feat? This is how I know some people don't know much about MK or are simply ignoring facts here. And how is MK not a Universe exactly? Besides, that's merely a "title" it means little. Example, every series has a "God" in their respected series. In DC it's Presence, Marvel it's TOAA, LOTR it's Eru, MK it's the Elder Gods, so on and so forth. The whole "well they don't have 200 feats like this comic character does" means little when you're omnipotent. I don't see what the point is of the Kamidogu and TOAA is supposed to mean, the Kami were merely weapons made by the Elder Gods eons ago it's not like that's their only weapon...

As for Raiden what he's done? Well, let's see here the normal version alone has defeated Shao Kahn, Shinnok(Fallen Elder God, but not A Elder God) still powerful in MK 4's plot, defeated Shinnok and his armies and banished him to Netherrealm for centuries if not longer before Shinnok came back, he resurrected Liu Kang to do his bidding when he was Dark Raiden, protected Earthrealm for god knows how long...probably longer then Centuries as the Elder Gods confirm before promoting him to one of them in MK4. He has to reform himself and demote his power levels to a mortal form just to fight fairly...

I'm not asking for a resume, I'm asking for quantifiable feats. And don't give me that omnipotent crap. The fact that they can be challenged and threatened by others already disqualifies all of them from omnipotence, even more so when you're talking about a single Elder God who doesn't even have the same feats as the Elder Gods who defeated the One Being.

Give me the destructive capacity for Elder God Raiden. How hard does he hit? What's the most powerful blow he can tank based on what he's done? How fast is he?

Those are quantifiable. Not x character beat y character a long, long time ago without any details about the circumstances of how it's done.

Trust me, if you read the feats I've provided among other people in here instead of referring to "resume" comments, you'd see for yourself.

Yes, I will give you that "omnipotent" crap as part of my argument, for one do you even know what the word means? Uh, no they ARE omnipotent, get it? It's a FACT. They created everything and existed long before everything, the only thing that challenged them was the One Being which they defeated and made the realms from. What do you not get about this?

A Single Elder God? What? Dude, Elder God is an Elder God. Raiden chose to demote himself to get directly involved because of that power being far too ridiculous not to mention commuting with the mortals easier. Tell you what, to make it simple for your to understand. Raiden in Elder God Form much less ANY Elder God period, has NEVER been defeated...threatened and defeated are entirely two different animals guy.

I gave you the facts concerning the war with the One Being, choose to ignore it or accept it. Either way it happened.

LARRY THE CABLE GUY

@Lou_Cypher said:

I'm not asking for a resume, I'm asking for quantifiable feats. And don't give me that omnipotent crap. The fact that they can be challenged and threatened by others already disqualifies all of them from omnipotence, even more so when you're talking about a single Elder God who doesn't even have the same feats as the Elder Gods who defeated the One Being.

Give me the destructive capacity for Elder God Raiden. How hard does he hit? What's the most powerful blow he can tank based on what he's done? How fast is he?

Those are quantifiable. Not x character beat y character a long, long time ago without any details about the circumstances of how it's done.

They aren't omnipotent, once Onaga fused the kamidogus he had the Elder Gods in hiding.

@Vaeternus said:

Actually, the realms were created from the One Being's essense(not a planet ^) the One Being they defeated eons ago and is more or less the devil of MKU. It's influence is dark, controlling and evil among everyone in the MKU.

Calling it "more or less" the devil kinda means it isn't the devil. Considering it has no similarities with the devil - thats a good place to say "it is not the devil".

Of course being Video Game characters they'll have less feats, but again Elder Gods=God of MKU and creation of everything, not losing to Zeus here who is far from God level in MU much less top 5 powerful character in MU.

A skyfather is far from 'god' level? Are you just ignoring he is infact a leader God of a pantheon of Gods? What makes them so powerful again?

@Isaac, No more like the Elder Gods just don't feel like being bothered half the time because they show no "bias" but if they feel the need to get involved they will take care of business...yes, they are unbeatable because they've uhh never been beaten... Ah, so in other words I'm right and you're bringing up Odin randomly(and btw doing it better that's relative) until Odin creates worlds literally and realms as well as the power to destroy them and defeat the Devil of Marvel Universe at least for a while, talk to me.

Unbeatable beings that someone in the MKU is always threatening to usurp. Makes sense. Marvel has like half a dozen devils - Surtur for the longest time was depicted as a devil and Odin has been fighting him for ages.

And again, Shinnok IS NOT an Elder God...he's a FALLEN Elder God, and thus does NOT have their power....I don't get why this is such a difficult concept to understand? You think Shinnok=Elder God still, he's not....in fact Raiden defeated him and banished him in MK4's intro years ago. So obviously if normal Raiden did such, Shinnok isn't anywhere near an Elder God being as how an Elder God could easily destroy Raiden, Shinnok etc And yes the Elder Gods are as powerful actually probably surpass Asura given how they created the entire MKU. But again feel free to ignore this...How many worlds/realms about 8 if you count ones that aren't talked about, but what relevance does that have? In the entire MKU, you're not higher then Elder Gods...like mentioned before, the only thing to ever challenge them was the One Being years ago which they defeated then came back and they dealt with it by powering up Scorpion, but Shujinko beat him to it...How is the Devil small exactly? lol Too funny.

I think it's the part where there is nothing distinguishing a fallen elder god from an elder god. Apparently shaping their cosmos from a being they had beaten makes them uber powerful; completely ignoring Franklin Richards can create universes under his bed sheets and play god in them. Seriously a little boy does God better than the Elder Gods do.

Well, I was just listing other powerful characters in Bayonetta, I never said she was "the most powerful" but hey at least video games are more realistic with people in space for the most part, and not "magically able to breath" like in Wonder Woman's case...among other characters. Well, then you just admitted that you know you're wrong and don't want to look at the power chart because you're obviously not aware of MK...so you should probably just leave this topic then.

So Asura and Bayonetta not requiring any air in space is more realistic as they shout and talk to folks? It's just as realistic as it is in a comic book - trying to pretend otherwise is silly.

Yeah, guy without feats who is equal to those beings who only created the entire MKU...yeah, you don't need feats when you're that powerful...this is like the classic "Superman One Million vs. Galactus argument" well Galactus has far more feats,therefore he'd win...even though he's going up against someone who would destroy him easily....I love how you're completely ignoring the fact that the Elder Gods CREATED the entire MKU, yet you're questioning them hitting hard? lol you make no sense. They wouldn't have to "hit hard" given their abilities...

"You don't need feats when you're that powerful" - then how in god's name do you know he's powerful if under your own admission he's done squat. Oh because a completely different cast of characters did something without any context behind it. Awesome argument.

@onilordasmodeus said:

@isaac_clarke:The named realms of the MKU are: ChaosRealm, Earthrealm, Edenia, Heaven, Netherrealm, Orderrealm, Outworld, Vaeternus, and Zaterra. The expanded MKU includes: Hinpar, Ilkan, Nightmare Realm, and Xaa.The Nexus is a realm as well, but it seems that it is just more of a personal audience chamber, or a watch tower, from where the EGs watch and conduct business the the gods who reside in the realms. The EGs themselved exist in the void between the realms.There is also a mysterious realm called the Rellim Ocanep which really hasn't played a part but is still counted as a realm in existance.And I know your last post was directed at @Vaeternus, but it just seems you are missing the whole point and scope of what the Elder Gods did and who the One Being is. The EGs don't sit back and just choose not to fight because their lazy or "too powerful", even though they do feel the petty squabbles that go on between mortals are just beneath them; no. Since the Realms are comprised of the One Being's essence, they know that it is still "alive" and that it want's to be reborn. They don't get involved for fear/respect of its power, and the possiblity that they could be corrupted and Fall like Shinnok did. The EGs are the ONLY true defense that the Universe has to stave off the One Being from reforming, or defeating it if/when it does.That being said, the EGs do appoint persons to uphold their will in the realms such as Raiden, Fujin, Scorpion, and others. When things start getting out of control, like in Armageddon or when Onaga got the Kamidogu, they will give power to those they deem worthy and able to carry out their will.

Okay.

They are omnipotent for all intents and purposes as their combined power was able to over power all the power of the universe focused into one entity. You seem to want to quantify the One being as a "strong guy" when in reality the EG's defeated TOAA and became the NEW TOAA.

The problem with omnipotence is - multiple beings can't all be omnipotent in the same food chain. It doesn't make sense. The problem is the One Being and the Elder Gods are no TOAA. The TOAA in marvel is a creator that has absolute control over it's creations; namely when the fantastic four visited the TOAA was jotting down a bunch of random events for said characters - essentially writing their stories as it happened - controlling their reality. What the Elder God's defeated was at best a Ymir type character and really nothing more.

Check out the MK Decpetion Onaga Ending.

Big blank spot under this.

In this ending the EGs loose, but you think Odin and the Odin force could have beaten him? You say that Odin and his brothers did what the EGs did? I can't find anything stating that Odin beat a TOAA level being.

Sure - the Elder Gods in that scenario found themselves again unable to fight their own power. Odin fighting himself was destroying galaxies; but that's besides the point. Odin can't beat a TOAA level being - problem is no one in MK is a TOAA level being. Onaga wasn't even an Eternity level being in that instance.

Beating down a celestial being and creating a number of realms from it's corpse? Yep Odin and bros did that.

@onilordasmodeus said:

@isaac_clarke: Isaac, this is a response to the post you addressed to me on page 4.1) That was my point. Speed, intellegence, fighting skill, etc. are paramount in all fights unless the combatants are equal in thos areas, at which point they cancel out. You are essentially saying that Zeus is stronger physically than Raiden is, and negating the strengths Raiden has over Zeus. That is kind of ignorant (I'm an not calling you ignorant BTW), how can you pass judgement on anything without weighing all the facts.

The problem is it isn't just physical strength - overall the power of the character is much more in Zeus' favor. There's nothing to suggest he can't strip Raiden of his godhood, just as easily as he could restore Hercules to Godhood.

2) I can't get around the vagueness of some parts of the MK story, so if you don't want to get behind the argument based on that, I can't say anthing to sway you. The details may be fuzzy, but the larger picture is pretty clear.

Okay,

3) It's not worth trying to debate Hulk vs Kahn speed wise, so I won't. I'm sure, just like you said, that Hulk has some zanny feats that are completely ridiculous. Intelect wise though, Kahn has a God level intellect and awareness. Without some PIS means, Hulk isn't besting him in a cosmic chess match.

What does god level intellect and awareness mean? I could think of a few dozen character packing a slightly more diverse mental processing power, knowledge and overall perception of the cosmos they're in.

4) I hear you when you say all gods aren't created equal, and I comepletely agree. And those vids/scans were put up for no other purpose than to show that mortals in MK are like nothings to the Gods of MK. They weren't meant to wow you with graphics, or for you to compare with Zeus puting down the Hulk. They just prove that to Shinnok, someone like Liu Kang is nothing more than a nuisance when he is not restricted to mortal form.

Okay.

And you asked the question if "you'd have to de-godify said Gods[?]" to make it a fair MORTAL KOMBAT match? That answer would be yes. I understand your position that Marvel Gods are Gods that's it, but it's not that cut and dry in MK and you are damning the MK Gods for that reason. You hold it against characters like Raiden and Shinnok that they were beaten by the likes of Liu Kang or some other mortal, but the fact is they were essentially stripped of their "power" at the time of their loss. How can you say God A lost to human B and thus the God A is weak when God A wasn't a "God" at the time? And it's not like God A is flipping a switch and *poof*, their in moral form, the EG deem it so and thus that God is essentially cut off.

I'm just not sure I understand what such ridiculous stipulations would be put on Zeus when these rules that Raiden or Shinnok are potentially binded to don't reflect on characters of his stature in said universe.

Mortal Kombat isn't just the name of a tournament, it is a Universal Law in the MKU put in place by the Gods. The TOAA basically says, "this is how it is", and everyone else follows suit because they must. That is why what Shinnok did was so special when he fought Raiden, he stood up and matched the power of TOAA in that fight.

The TOAA is completely omnipotent - there are no challenges to that position. That's why what he's writing / drawing becomes reality for the Marvel universe as shown when the Fantastic Four met the TOAA. Shinnok could challenge him all he wants for example and it would be pointless as the TOAA simply write him slipping on a banana peel and dying. MK doesn't quite have a being like that.

Another one?

"Sky Father" is not a level of power.

Zeus is around DC Ares's level, possibly a little under.

People saying Zeus wins without any feats to back it up (there aren't any/many) are going off forum hype. This is incorrect.

That being said, I think Mortal Kombat is stupid and should stay out of my Comic Vine.

@nick, yes they are omnipotent and Onaga didn't make the Elder Gods hide, they chose Scorpion as their champion but Shijunko beat him first and killed Onaga before Scorpion could...besides, that video with Onaga vs. the Elder Gods =not canon.

@green, MK is awesome but sadly people on CV are ignorant to it so I agree that MK topics shouldn't be made because it proves people don't know much about anything outside of comics...some, some do, most don't. But hey, I guess not everyone is a gamer. I will say at least games are more practical and original then comic stories at times with their PIS outcomes..

@Isaac, considering that that video that was posted isn't canon but just a scenario showing you how powerful the Elder God's weapons are....wouldn't exactly say "the Elder Gods did lose" there, since they didn't. That was made for "what if purposes" and isn't canon. BTW, the One Being is more or less the Devil of MK because of it's evil, dark, controlling influence...it wants to take over everything by corrupting everyone. Sounds a lot like the Devil or ultimate darkness if you ask me. BTW, what makes them so powerful? Oh I don't know creators of the entire MKU...omnipotent, never been defeated, can do virtually anything...do you just ignore this?

Again, like I told the other guy...threatening and actually defeating. Are two entirely different animals...you can threaten me right now, doesn't =you actually defeating me however...

Except for the fact that Shinnok being a Fallen Elder God is more so a status then power analogy...obviously since normal Raiden defeated him and banished him during MK4's arch, he is NOT an Elder God powerwise. Far from it, he's more on Raiden's level at best just evil...no a little boy does not do a better job being as how Franklin didn't create the entire MU, TOAA did...the difference. Oh and I'm pretty sure he has more weaknesses then the Elder Gods last time I checked. He's a mere powerful mutant, they're are omnipotent entities. Dumb comparison.

Asura or Bayoneeta are uber powerful, as well as the Elder Gods or Raiden(as we saw in MKDC), but my point is if you're powerful enough or a godly like being obviously it makes sense. I'm referring to the Comics having "normal" people in space like nothing, that's so dumb. Yeah, again if you're like Superman where it don't matter or GL's protected by their auras, it makes sense. Someone on here said "Zoom could exist in Space via the speed force and beat Superman" no. As for WW, she's still a powerful human at the end of the day, even the cartoons had her in a space suit....

Ok, again so if I ask you Superman Prime One Million vs. Galactus(who has ton more feats) you're going to tell me "Galactus wins due to having feats"? Even though he's going up against someone 100 billion times more powerful then he is...? right...Besides I gave you feats anyway, you chose to ignore them as usual.

@nick_hero22: Just letting you know we have responses.

@onilordasmodeus said:

@isaac_clarke:Edit: True omnipotence is a paradox in itself because being truly omnipotent breaks all the laws of logic. But anyway...

I'm not following.

I agree that 2 omnipotent beings in the same food chain can't exist; you and Nick have made your points. In Marvel, the TOAA is a character who has/uses unlimited power and it is unmatched in that power. My issue is that we are talking about MK where there are 2 entities who arenotof the same food chain, yet still reside in the same Universe. Marvel's TOAA exists as the supreme being of its reality because it created the Living Tribunal, the Celestials, the Old Gods, the New, and everything below and in between. The One Being didn't create the EGs, nor did the EGs create the One Being. They have just existed since the beginning. Whether that means they willed themselves into existence, or whatever, I don't know, but there isn't, and never was, anything above them (other than NRS). The One being existed here, and the EGs existed there, as 2 separate yet "equal" entities.

If they were equal the One Being wouldn't have lost.

It'd be like if the Presence and TOAA met in a void space and had a fight, who would win? Who would have advantage? That answer would be neither. Everything may be created, and and simulatiously be destroyed. The fight might change shape, scope, etc., but it would go on forever in some form or another for the rest of eternity.

TOAA - the Presence is an actual character rather than the writers themselves.

The fact that you wrote you saw a "blank-spot" where the video was supposed to be suggests that you didn't (couldn't) watch what was posted. I believe if you had you wouldn't be saying the One Being was at most a Ymir, or a Celestial being. Google Onaga Deception Ending. That is the One Being - it is one consciousness, it is everything. I guess technically if there were Celestials or Ymir in MK, the OB would be them, but it would be all of them and also everything else at once. In that Onaga Ending (which I urge you to watch), Onaga "consumes" everything including the EGs Kamidogu, and thus becomes more powerful than the EGs because of it. The Kamidogu are what shattered the OB, and what kept the OB from reforming. With them now a part of OB itself, it had become whole and had taken a significant enough portion of the EGs power.

I looked it up since I couldn't see it - it's the video posted earlier here. It pretty much was a Ymir - the Gods showed up and took him down to create everything from him; it's clear MK borrows from a lot of pagan / other faiths to create their history.

In an attempt to be clearer and go deeper for those who say MK is stupid, the EGs couldn't destroy the OB, and the OB can't destroy the EGs. They can get one up on each other, i.e. the OB consumes the EGs, or the EGs shatter the OB, but one isn't necessarily more powerful than the other. We've all heard that energy isn't destroyed, only transformed; in essence these 2 entities can simply push each other around, but can't erase/destroy/kill the one another. When the EGs shattered the OB, they "weakened" it by spreading it to thin. They didn't de-power it, it didn't die, it is still fighting; it is now just that the war is being fought by lesser beings, splinters of the OB's consciousness. That is the whole thing about MK, each of the characters (Scorpion, Subzero, Liu Kang, etc.) are tapping into the power of the One being (the power of reality) which is what gives them their abilities.
...

That kinda kills the case for either of them being omnipotent in any sense over one another.

1) Their is nothing to suggest that Zeus could strip Raiden of his power. Zeus has authority over Hercules as he is in his pantheon. Can Zeus strip Thor of his power? Can Odin strip Ares of his power?

Yea, both Zeus and Odin could strip other gods of their divinity. It's not like there is anything to prevent them from doing so at all.

3) When I say God level intellect and awareness, I just mean high level of cosmic knowledge and awareness. In general, if a being enters a Gods dominion/jurisdiction, that God would know and anticipate what was to come; Kahn has shown that level of awareness and foresight (there are exceptions to this general statement of course). There most definitely are individuals in Marvel and in MK with a higher, more expansive cosmic, and/or even general, knowledge and awareness than Shao Kahn...none of which are the Hulk however.

That's reasonable.

And my only point with those "ridiculous stipulations" is that as ridiculous as they might be, they do exist in MK and you hold it against the characters (Raiden, Shinnok, etc.) that they are subject to the supreme rule of the EGs. If TOAA said, "Zeus, fight Iron Fist, and oh...and I'm taking your divinity", Zeus would be helpless against the decree of TOAA. In reality would TOAA do that, probably not; could he though, yes; and if he did, what would Zeus do...fight Iron Fist with no powers.

The example is a bit off - it wouldn't be the TOAA applying any stipulations - it would be the other all-fathers. The only one they have is more or less not playing god for humanity.

If TOAA did do that to Zeus though, and Zeus lost the fight, would you hold it against him? Would you say Zeus is weak because he lost to a Iron Fist who is only a mortal, and thus he'd loose to God 'B'?

I just don't see how this scenario applies here.

And yes, MK does have TOAA-like characters; the EGs are omnipotent just like the OB. If the EGs said, "we want to spare the universe some heart ache. Shao Kahn, you slip on a banana peel and die...now;" they could. They can manipulate every aspect of the weakened OB (the people; the realms; the expanded universe) to an omnipotent degree (even a single EG could the banana peel thing). But at each moment that the EGs intervene in the realms, they run the risk of being "infected" by it's influence, a force not of there creation; the One Being itself. That is why they distance themselves from the "minor stuff", that is why they work as one because separate they can fall. Just look at Shinnok and Raiden, the 2 Fallen Elder Gods.

That is a contradiction; best bet is to argue perhaps the EG are part of the One Being or an aspect of it's power. Outside that you can't claim they're all omnipotent - as it doesn't make sense.

@Vaeternus said:

@nick, yes they are omnipotent and Onaga didn't make the Elder Gods hide, they chose Scorpion as their champion but Shijunko beat him first and killed Onaga before Scorpion could...besides, that video with Onaga vs. the Elder Gods =not canon.

Saying a bunch of people are omnipotent doesn't make sense. Much-less make it true.

Gallery

@green, MK is awesome but sadly people on CV are ignorant to it so I agree that MK topics shouldn't be made because it proves people don't know much about anything outside of comics...some, some do, most don't. But hey, I guess not everyone is a gamer. I will say at least games are more practical and original then comic stories at times with their PIS outcomes..

Yep, we just don't know and games are totally more practical and original then comic stories - give me break. Speaking as someone who plays games, this isn't remotely true. It isn't at all hard to find examples of this in gaming; God of War has clear inspiration being drawn from Marvel's Thor, Darksiders is challenging Zelda and calling them more practical is hopping mad.

@Isaac, considering that that video that was posted isn't canon but just a scenario showing you how powerful the Elder God's weapons are....wouldn't exactly say "the Elder Gods did lose" there, since they didn't. That was made for "what if purposes" and isn't canon. BTW, the One Being is more or less the Devil of MK because of it's evil, dark, controlling influence...it wants to take over everything by corrupting everyone. Sounds a lot like the Devil or ultimate darkness if you ask me. BTW, what makes them so powerful? Oh I don't know creators of the entire MKU...omnipotent, never been defeated, can do virtually anything...do you just ignore this?

I wasn't referring to a video - in general the Elder God's position as the pinnacle of their cosmos is always seems in peril. Again the Devil isn't anything like One Being. We could pull scan after scan where Odin is referred to as omnipotent or something more ridiculous like shaking the multiverse in a fight. Then scans of equality between Zeus an Odin. All without much hope that the Elder Gods have even been referred to as omnipotent in their histories.

Again, like I told the other guy...threatening and actually defeating. Are two entirely different animals...you can threaten me right now, doesn't =you actually defeating me however...

Once grunts stop saving them - the Elder Gods are going to be in quite a pickel

Except for the fact that Shinnok being a Fallen Elder God is more so a status then power analogy...obviously since normal Raiden defeated him and banished him during MK4's arch, he is NOT an Elder God powerwise. Far from it, he's more on Raiden's level at best just evil...

He's the only Elder God that's seen kombat and it isn't the fault of the audience to be wholeheartedly unimpressed.

no a little boy does not do a better job being as how Franklin didn't create the entire MU, TOAA did...the difference. Oh and I'm pretty sure he has more weaknesses then the Elder Gods last time I checked. He's a mere powerful mutant, they're are omnipotent entities. Dumb comparison.

Except Franklin can materialize an entire universe effortlessly under his bed-sheets and exceedingly hop into it to play god. What weaknesses exactly? Future Franklin was immortal bar beings of similar statue (The Mad Celestials planning to take over the multiverse) gave him a bit of grief that him and Galactus overcame. He'll it's implied when the cosmos ends him Galactus are going to merge or something of the sort. And yes he will survive the end of creation.

Not bad for a mutant.

Asura or Bayoneeta are uber powerful, as well as the Elder Gods or Raiden(as we saw in MKDC), but my point is if you're powerful enough or a godly like being obviously it makes sense. I'm referring to the Comics having "normal" people in space like nothing, that's so dumb. Yeah, again if you're like Superman where it don't matter or GL's protected by their auras, it makes sense. Someone on here said "Zoom could exist in Space via the speed force and beat Superman" no. As for WW, she's still a powerful human at the end of the day, even the cartoons had her in a space suit....

Wonder-Woman isn't human and lets not get into dumb things in regards to gaming or comics - there is a heaping of stupid written in both - this idea games are remotely any better isn't factual. It's beyond silly for you to tout that while praising Bayonetta and Asura.

Ok, again so if I ask you Superman Prime One Million vs. Galactus(who has ton more feats) you're going to tell me "Galactus wins due to having feats"? Even though he's going up against someone 100 billion times more powerful then he is...? right...Besides I gave you feats anyway, you chose to ignore them as usual.

The difference being Galactus is much more powerful than One Million is. That iteration of Superman has never done anything Galactus hasn't on panel, more easily. Not to mention Galactus doesn't sport rings to accomplish feats and nearly busts the universe as byproducts of his high-end skirmishes. Hell of a lot more impression than shiny golden men.

You can't call someone more powerful because they're shiny gold - especially in comparison to the guy that has him beat in every area.

@isaac_clarke:

1) True omnipotence is a paradox in it's self. You say TOAA is the almighty, supreme being in marvel? Can TOAA create a object so heavy that He himself can't pick it up?

If so, is He really omnipotent if there is something that He can't pick up?

And the paradox is, If He can't make something so heavy that He can't pick it up, then is He not omnipotent because it has a limit.

Both scenarios break logic and thus break the definition of omnipotence.

After doing a bit of reading, there are plenty of theories that surround this very concept. The one that makes the most "sense" to me, is that "God" (or whatever omnipotent being we are talking about) created everything, and thus existed before logic itself. Trying to quantify the un-quantifiable is a moot point from the start, as we are trying to understand and put limits on something that is truly beyond our level of comprehension.

2) You say the OB lost, but the fact is that the battle is still being fought; the OB and the EGs never stopped fighting. The scope of there war may have changed; the pace of there war changed; but there war is very much still active. A "loss" in this case is relative.

3) I think you know what I mean when I said TOAA vs Presence, but let me change the scenario to something that you would more readily accept at face value. The unitary Christian God vs TOAA, who would win? Lets forget that "God" created everything including the the writers who created the Marvel universe and thus TOAA. For the sake of this, TOAA is real. Who wins? Or would you agree that it would be a stalemate.

4) Borrows doesn't mean the same. The MK creation story makes it clear the the OB and the EGs are the Yin and Yang of the universe. Where in Marvel, the Yin and Yang would be apart of one body, the singular TOAA, here in MK that body is 2. Where the omnipotence paradox is spread over just one entity in Marvel, here in MK it is spread over the 2.

...

1) So you are saying that Zeus can/has stripped Thor of his power without any interference or any exchange of authority with Odin?

2) Your saying you still don't see how the "stipulations" apply; your argument is has basically been, "Zeus is stronger physically, and Raiden has lost to mortal (humans)". By acknowledging that the stipulations exist and played/play a major role in the outcome of fights, you can do nothing but say Raiden/Shinnok lost in those situations due to PIS and thus you can not hold it against them.

3) This goes back to the inherent paradox within all truly omnipotent beings.

That is a contradiction; best bet is to argue perhaps the EG are part of the One Being or an aspect of it's power. Outside that you can't claim they're all omnipotent - as it doesn't make sense.

You are trying to apply logic to the illogical. The text in MK is clear, in the beginning the were only the 2 entities, nothing else at all. No being above them, no singular creator. They were, and have always been, separate thus one didn't not come from the other, and one cannot be the aspect of the other. They were 2 equal beings, the yin and yang of infinity.

There you go, the answer to all our questions, what is half of infinity? Is half of infinity any less than infinity?

Edit: Those scans of Odin vs Galactus said it all. From the 3rd scan...

"Tis not for the likes of you and me to comprehend. We may be gods (Thor talking), but this matter is for those more godly than we."

Thor knew it was beyond him so he didn't even try to explain it, or rather the writers of the comic (TOAA) side stepped the paradox that they (He) created.

Another Edit: I've been thinking/reading more about Norse mythology and contrasting it with the mythology of MK, and yeah, the OB is definitely not the Ymir of MK. In Norse mythology, Ymir was created by the interaction between the 2 worlds Niflheim and Muspellsheim, which in turn formed in (or rather were just mentioned after) the void. Further more, Odin and his bothers defeated Ymir and created Earth (that was it); that is not what the EGs did.

Looking at Greek mythology, as well as Egyptian Mythology, all the primordial Gods in those creation myths came from an existing chaos.

From the MK official story:

In the beginning before existence, there was the One Being and the Elder Gods. The One Being fed off the Elder Gods. He was everything, and then the six Elder Gods with the use of the six Kamidogus smashed the one being’s consciousness into many realms, including the realms of Earthrealm, Netherrealm, Orderrealm, Chaosrealm, Edenia, and Outworld as well as the rest of existence. All of existence is the shattered consciousness of the One Being, as if the One Being was dreaming.

Inferring from MK's text:

In the beginning were 2 distinctly separate entities: the OB and the EGs. Between them was, or rather fromthem came, chaos, and from their chaos came existence.

If anything, the EGs and the OB can be compared to the Norse worlds of Niflheim and Muspellsheim, or the Chaos itself that the Greek and/or Egyptian Gods came from. The OB and the EGs are the purest forms of the everything and the nothing that existed in the void before existence.

@onilordasmodeus said:

@isaac_clarke:

1) True omnipotence is a paradox in it's self. You say TOAA is the almighty, supreme being in marvel? Can TOAA create a object so heavy that He himself can't pick it up?

If so, is He really omnipotent if there is something that He can't pick up?

And the paradox is, If He can't make something so heavy that He can't pick it up, then is He not omnipotent because it has a limit.

Both scenarios break logic and thus break the definition of omnipotence.

After doing a bit of reading, there are plenty of theories that surround this very concept. The one that makes the most "sense" to me, is that "God" (or whatever omnipotent being we are talking about) created everything, and thus existed before logic itself. Trying to quantify the un-quantifiable is a moot point from the start, as we are trying to understand and put limits on something that is truly beyond our level of comprehension.

Bad example: The TOAA doesn't have a set physical form to begin with. So could the TOAA create something he can't lift? Sure - but in the same breathe the TOAA could lift it any time he wants. Could the TOAA put himself in the hospital if the Juggernaut runs him down? Sure. Could the TOAA decide he wants to eat a hotdog? He's done that too.

2) You say the OB lost, but the fact is that the battle is still being fought; the OB and the EGs never stopped fighting. The scope of there war may have changed; the pace of there war changed; but there war is very much still active. A "loss" in this case is relative.

Not much of a war if the war consists of preventing said being from simply restoring himself. That is pretty much beaten in my book.

3) I think you know what I mean when I said TOAA vs Presence, but let me change the scenario to something that you would more readily accept at face value. The unitary Christian God vs TOAA, who would win? Lets forget that "God" created everything including the the writers who created the Marvel universe and thus TOAA. For the sake of this, TOAA is real. Who wins? Or would you agree that it would be a stalemate.

In terms of actual power showings - God is taking days to create Earth and then takes a day off after the effort. Dozens of reality warpers far below the TOAA have already beaten most of Bible God's showings - if we're running under the perception of actual showings of power - God loses. But religious debates tend to get locked - so let's not go there.

4)Borrows doesn't mean the same. The MK creation story makes it clear the the OB and the EGs are the Yin and Yang of the universe. Where in Marvel, the Yin and Yang would be apart of one body, the singular TOAA, here in MK that body is 2. Where the omnipotence paradox is spread over just one entity in Marvel, here in MK it is spread over the 2.

Well we've got here Odin and his brothers punking out a celestial being, creating the cosmos and realms from his body. And creation myths aren't at all unique for the most part to begin with - but it's clear that Mortal Kombat is getting a good deal of inspiration from these myths to shape their universe.

So now the Elder Gods and One Being are a single being - rather than competing entities for control?

1) So you are saying that Zeus can/has stripped Thor of his power without any interference or any exchange of authority with Odin?

No I'm saying he can. There is absolutely no reason to believe otherwise. You don't even need to be a Skyfather to de-godify a god:

Gallery

2) Your saying you still don't see how the "stipulations" apply; your argument is has basically been, "Zeus is stronger physically, and Raiden has lost to mortal (humans)". By acknowledging that the stipulations exist and played/play a major role in the outcome of fights, you can do nothing but say Raiden/Shinnok lost in those situations due to PIS and thus you can not hold it against them.

Not just physically - just an overall far more powerful being. It doesn't even matter if Raiden gets punked out by mortals - he has nothing on Zeus in this fight that is worth mentioning. While Zeus could arguably turn him into a mouse.

3) This goes back to the inherent paradox within all truly omnipotent beings.

The paradox isn't quite so much a paradox.

You are trying to apply logic to the illogical. The text in MK is clear, in the beginning the were only the 2 entities, nothing else at all. No being above them, no singular creator. They were, and have always been, separate thus one didn't not come from the other, and one cannot be the aspect of the other. They were 2 equal beings, the yin and yang of infinity.
There you go, the answer to all our questions, what is half of infinity? Is half of infinity any less than infinity?
Edit: Those scans of Odin vs Galactus said it all. From the 3rd scan...

You seem to be applying the concept of omnipotence requires one to be at the beginning of all things - that isn't quite the case.

Half of infinity? Marvel's already addressed that.

Thor knew it was beyond him so he didn't even try to explain it, or rather the writers of the comic (TOAA) side stepped the paradox that they (He) created.

I'm not seeing this paradox from this bit of writing - Odin and Galactus are reality warpers - the entire process of warping one another is redundant.

Another Edit: I've been thinking/reading more about Norse mythology and contrasting it with the mythology of MK, and yeah, the OB is definitely not the Ymir of MK. In Norse mythology, Ymir was created by the interaction between the 2 worlds Niflheim and Muspellsheim, which in turn formed in (or rather were just mentioned after) the void. Further more, Odin and his bothers defeated Ymir and created Earth (that was it); that is not what the EGs did.
Looking at Greek mythology, as well as Egyptian Mythology, all the primordial Gods in those creation myths came from an existing chaos.

The heavens and the Earth from Ymir - not simply the Earth. I think you need to re-read the Norse creation myth.

From the MK official story:
Inferring from MK's text:
In the beginning were 2 distinctly separate entities: the OB and the EGs. Between them was, or rather fromthem came, chaos, and from their chaos came existence.
If anything, the EGs and the OB can be compared to the Norse worlds of Niflheim and Muspellsheim, or the Chaos itself that the Greek and/or Egyptian Gods came from. The OB and the EGs are the purest forms of the everything and the nothing that existed in the void before existence.

Not in the least.

@onilordasmodeus said:

@isaac_clarke:You say "not in the least" that the Elder Gods of MK are the purest forms of the everything and the nothing that existed in the void before existence, yet that is exactly what the text alludes to and thus what they must be. You are disagreeing with the creators of MK, not me, on what their story says because you're not/can't believe what you are reading. Nothing is above them, as illogical as that may sound, as they are the the Alphas and the Omegas. They didn't come from anything and (to cap it all off) the everything to come came from them. The creator(s), the one(s) from which all things flows, they are omnipotent because they weren't just at the beginnning, they were the beginning, just as they to will also be the end.1) Overall good showing on the scans, but you have far from disproved the omnipotence paradox, in fact, I think you supported my the argument that I presented. Your scan and example of TOAA being in the hospital shows that TOAA defies logic. He can do as he chooses, so in the same breath he/it can be weak and strong; how is that not a paradox?Also, you say that being at the beginning isn't a requirement of omnipotence yet that is precisely why TOAA is top dog (according to you). According to your argument, 2 cannot be omnipotent if they are in the same food chain. In Marvel, everything came from TOAA because he was the one in the beginning that wrote everything, and he (according to you) can make beings stronger than him (the rock) as well as everything else, yet he is still top dog because he chooses to be,that sir is a paradox.2) What is war but choices and calculations. On one hand you can have a war that can consist of 2 individuals, and on the other it can encompass thousands. War is relative and you can try and diminish their war, but war is war; struggle is struggle.3) You comic guys are crazy. True omnipotence vs true omnipotence equals stalemate. Power showings? How can one "win" if the other choose not to loose.4) Single being? Where did that come from? In the beginning their were 2 beings equal in omnipotence; chaos ensued when one began to feed of the the other; in that chaos existence was created. I said the paradox is spread over the 2 entities as akin to how it is spread over the one in Marvel, period....1) I think you may have to explain your use of those scans. Thing was possessed by the power of the Hammer of Angrir and transformed in to something different. Thing may have become God-like, but that power wasn't divinely bestowed upon him , it was a borrowed power. Further more by the time Franklin used his powers, Thing was weakened. How does that prove that Zeus has authority over Thor's divinity?2) You haven't presented anything saying such, and have shown no evidence of this. If you can show Zeus turning Thor into a mouse, and thus rendering him completely useless in a fight, then I'd conceed.3) Levels of infinity is a logical concept, and it is this very concept about which we are debating. The EGs have shown no limitations as they have no superior in the MK universe to prove anything contrary to them being infinitely infinite. Their power is only matched by the omnipotent and equally infinite OB as both of them have absolute control over time, space, and matter. You are trying to quantify your infinite character as being more infinite than mine and I don't even see how that is possible. TOAA is infinite in power and has absoulte control in his space, but even he has no authority over, and thus isn't more powerful than, an entity that he didn't create and thus cannot re-write. TOAA has no power in DC or MK or any other universe, and the same concept goes for for MK. The only thing is in MK there were 2 in the beginning in the same space, where in Marvel, TOAA was the only one at the beginning and thus only he is the only alpha.4) Yeah, my source was incomplete. Odin and his bros did create the Earth and Heavens of Earth...but what about the other planets and other peoples through out the universe? Ymir was a celestial from which Heaven and Earth were created but Odin seems to have no ties with the rest of the universe and its creation. Through the EGs and the OB everthing was created; Earth, Heaven, and all the other realms in the universe (all 17 realms in one instance). All the planets were given life through them and all life through out the universe is "powered", rather comprised, of the infinity that is the OB; physical, spiritual, and everything else in between. How is Odin slaying a Celestial and creating Earth and its Heaven, even remotely on the same level as not just creating, but actually being equal to the infinite potential that is the universe?Like I said before when I compared MK to Norse mythology, the EGs and the OB are like the 2 planets in the beginning. From those 2 planets came everything else, only in MK those planets would be sentient, actively using thier power to create, manipulate, and destroy.Like what is described in Greek mythology, an infinite chaos spawns everything, an infinite chaos with infinite potential. The EGs and the OB are the abstract chaos of creation and death.

The fact that Onaga was capable of posing as a threat and defeating the Elder Gods would suggest that aren't omnipotent in it's literal sense, and the fact that Shinnok a Fallen Elder God thought that he would be capable of overthrowing the Heavens including the Elder Gods despite being a former Elder God would suggest that they aren't truly omnipotent because if so they wouldn't have been able to demote Shinnok nor would he try to challenge them if that was the case, but MK fanboys aren't exactly known for their rationality nor intellectual honesty.

@onilordasmodeus said:

@nick_hero22: So you are calling me irrational and a liar without any proof. Same old Nick I see.first off:"Onaga" wasn't capable and didn't pose a threat the the EGs, the threat always was, and still is, the One Being. The EGs made it possible to aquire the Kamidogu by putting them in the realms, and through the OB Onaga learned of them and their where abouts. Upon merging them, Onaga would have become the vessel for the OB's consciouness and ceased to exist. Direct conflict in the realms over this matter would have went against all the rules by which the EGs abide.Second:Shinnok was corrupted by the thought of power and thus he devised a plan to try and negate the other EGs and take the realms. IDK, maybe he thought if he could control the OB, or an aspect of it, he would be stronger than the rest of the EGs. Regardless, Shinnok was wrong as he was weaker than the EGs, and wasn't strong enough alone to take the realms. Shinnok alone is not omnipotent...and I never said he was.The "thought" of being omnipotent, or being more powerful than your piers, doesn't mean anything other than just that; he thought. I fail to see the point of your entire post other than an attempt to slight me and call names...again.

I like how to continuously ignore evidence and flat out fabricate events and situations to fit your prerogative. The video speaks for itself, it stated that once the kamidogus were fused Onaga was capable of overthrowing the Elder Gods which would highly suggest that they are in fact not omnipotent, and you still haven't addressed the whole Shinnok situation, if he thought he could negate the Elder Gods despite being a former Elder God wouldn't that suggest that they are omnipotent as well?

If the One Being was more powerful or capable of "over throwing the Elder Gods" then they would have done so already, based on overall evidence while Omni is right both are more like the ying and the yang of MKU, both are omnipotent and I'd say the EG's have the edge if anything being as how they made the realms from the One Being's conscience years ago....with Earth being the center of power.

@Isaac,But it does since it is true....I don't see why you're still arguing over this topic of Elder Gods and One Being being omnipotent, both are but both are practically equal, although so far when both fought EG prevailed which tells me they're slightly more powerful, the One being's "presence" is still out there however.

The original comics were off base anyway, but not canon...but was more for fun if anything(their powers in the comics were pretty accurate although the "battles" were not since they weren't canon. Example, Raiden never fought Kano...in the comics they fought. In the games/canon story, never happened and if it did would last few seconds if that long. GOW is obviously based off of original mythologies, greek mostly but Kratos is a made up character within that saga. Like comics, some games draw ideas off of greek mythology

It's not always in peril, most of the time it's not and they don't want to be bothered...but if most, they're just threatened and usually tell or power up others to "deal" with it, if that don't work they deal with it themselves. Devil is very much like the One Being, the One Being=evil and wants to corrupt everyone and everything....like it did with Onaga's non-canon ending "what if scenario" I don't see how the EG being omnipotent has to do with you thinking the One being isn't more or less MKU's devil influence.

Huh? Hardly dude, the EG's defeated the One Being, and created the entire MKU from it years ago...how are they in a pickel? They just don't want to be bothered...that's all. He's the only Elder God that's seen kombat and it isn't the fault of the audience to be wholeheartedly unimpressed.

So what exactly if Raiden was the only Elder God at one point? Well, that's because the audience you refer to aren't familiar with MKU...it's a comic site. So could the EG, they did so years ago from the One Being's essense...again. lol you're right it's not bad for a mutant but realistically speaking Franklin isn't top 4 most powerful in MU is he?

I agree and you're right WW isn't human but I think she should still be able to "breath" in space...that's what I'm saying considering Flash and people like Cheetah have hurt her or can hurt her...yet space doesn't effect her? Ok...even other WW fans on here said the DS omega beams feat was pis, yet in one arch Zoom owns her and the JL, then in another she beats Zoom blindfolded then drags him with her lasso(great consistency there lol)

Ok, while you bring a fair point on the "feats" gig I'm pretty certain Superman One Million would defeat and destroy Big G....as that topic explained, When you're THAT much more powerful who cares about "well Galactus has more feats" but is he top 4 most powerful MU character? Nope....I'm sure he's top 10 but not top 3 or 4, Superman Prime ONe Million however is considered by DCU to be top 5 when I checked. He just has few feats but still, all knowledge of the universe? Has his own universe? No weaknesses? Come on...Galactus can't even eat without heralds doing his work for him...I'm a little confused with your ring thing, Prime used rings? You're talking about the lois gig when he needed her dna? outside of that, he had no trouble doing anything else and unlike Big G, needs no food to live...

im just going to say it the MK gods SUCK THE BIG ONE at being GODS.

I think they're pretty original actually since it's based off some greek and japanese mythology. I'll take that over PIS comic characters any day...and I enjoy DC comics but sometimes in comics, the stories suck or are just ridiculous.

@nick_hero22:

Again I state, "Onaga" didn't pose a threat to the EGs. The One being was using Onaga to futher its goals. When the Kamidogu were fused, all life would cease, including Onaga, but except the EGs and the OB.

You are right though, in the video Onaga clearly did stated, "I have become the One Being."

Shinnok: from MKM:Subzero... (http://www.mksecrets.net/index.php?section=mkmsz&lang=eng&contentID=4010)

Shinnok existed as an Elder God. The Elder Gods are the true rulers of all realms. They watch as worlds are created and destroyed and govern the realms with untold eons of wisdom. Shinnok, however, gave in to greed and illusions of false power by the new realm of Earth. If he could have that realm to himself, he would have power unmatched (illusions of power). He first would have to face the young god of thunder known as Rayden, who was appointed as Earth's guardian by the Elder Gods themselves. Their battle for the realm of Earth was fierce; causing the planet's near destruction and plunging it into centuries of darkness. But, the thunder god eventually won as Shinnok's overconfidence proved to be his undoing.

Shinnok wasn't stripped of his power by the EGs, he relinquished it when he stepped down. He falsely thought he would be more powerful, but was wrong.

But why/how was he wrong? If he was an EG...how could that be? He's suppose to be beyond reproach?

Rayden discovered that Shinnok entered the realm through the powers of a mystical amulet. It allowed Shinnok to enter the realm without challenge and keep the other Elder Gods from intervening. The amulet could only be created once, and Rayden stripped it from Shinnok's possession. With the aid of the true Elder Gods, he banished the fallen god into a place known as the Netherealm. Rayden buried the amulet deep within the mountains of Asia, determined to keep it from ever falling into the wrong hands. He then created a massive temple within the mountain to house the amulet. As long as the amulet remained on Earth, Shinnok would be trapped, forced to remain dormant for the rest of eternity.

Through the Amulet Shinnok found/created he became corrupted by "illusions of false power". It did however allow him access to his powers as an EG when he entered the realms, but when he was stripped of it, he was cut off and became trapped within them. As I said, the EGs didn't strip him of his power, Shinnok let them go in hopes of becoming the One ruler of Realms. He was wrong.

@nick_hero22 said:

@onilordasmodeus said:

@nick_hero22: So you are calling me irrational and a liar without any proof. Same old Nick I see.first off:"Onaga" wasn't capable and didn't pose a threat the the EGs, the threat always was, and still is, the One Being. The EGs made it possible to aquire the Kamidogu by putting them in the realms, and through the OB Onaga learned of them and their where abouts. Upon merging them, Onaga would have become the vessel for the OB's consciouness and ceased to exist. Direct conflict in the realms over this matter would have went against all the rules by which the EGs abide.Second:Shinnok was corrupted by the thought of power and thus he devised a plan to try and negate the other EGs and take the realms. IDK, maybe he thought if he could control the OB, or an aspect of it, he would be stronger than the rest of the EGs. Regardless, Shinnok was wrong as he was weaker than the EGs, and wasn't strong enough alone to take the realms. Shinnok alone is not omnipotent...and I never said he was.The "thought" of being omnipotent, or being more powerful than your piers, doesn't mean anything other than just that; he thought. I fail to see the point of your entire post other than an attempt to slight me and call names...again.

I like how to continuously ignore evidence and flat out fabricate events and situations to fit your prerogative. The video speaks for itself, it stated that once the kamidogus were fused Onaga was capable of overthrowing the Elder Gods which would highly suggest that they are in fact not omnipotent, and you still haven't addressed the whole Shinnok situation, if he thought he could negate the Elder Gods despite being a former Elder God wouldn't that suggest that they are omnipotent as well?

Again, what am I fabricating to fit my prerogative?

@onilordasmodeus said:

@nick_hero22:

Again I state, "Onaga" didn't pose a threat to the EGs. The One being was using Onaga to futher its goals. When the Kamidogu were fused, all life would cease, including Onaga, but except the EGs and the OB.

You are right though, in the video Onaga clearly did stated, "I have become the One Being."

Shinnok: from MKM:Subzero... (http://www.mksecrets.net/index.php?section=mkmsz&lang=eng&contentID=4010)

Shinnok existed as an Elder God. The Elder Gods are the true rulers of all realms. They watch as worlds are created and destroyed and govern the realms with untold eons of wisdom. Shinnok, however, gave in to greed and illusions of false power by the new realm of Earth. If he could have that realm to himself, he would have power unmatched (illusions of power). He first would have to face the young god of thunder known as Rayden, who was appointed as Earth's guardian by the Elder Gods themselves. Their battle for the realm of Earth was fierce; causing the planet's near destruction and plunging it into centuries of darkness. But, the thunder god eventually won as Shinnok's overconfidence proved to be his undoing.

Shinnok wasn't stripped of his power by the EGs, he relinquished it when he stepped down. He falsely thought he would be more powerful, but was wrong.

But why/how was he wrong? If he was an EG...how could that be? He's suppose to be beyond reproach?

Rayden discovered that Shinnok entered the realm through the powers of a mystical amulet. It allowed Shinnok to enter the realm without challenge and keep the other Elder Gods from intervening. The amulet could only be created once, and Rayden stripped it from Shinnok's possession. With the aid of the true Elder Gods, he banished the fallen god into a place known as the Netherealm. Rayden buried the amulet deep within the mountains of Asia, determined to keep it from ever falling into the wrong hands. He then created a massive temple within the mountain to house the amulet. As long as the amulet remained on Earth, Shinnok would be trapped, forced to remain dormant for the rest of eternity.

Through the Amulet Shinnok found/created he became corrupted by "illusions of false power". It did however allow him access to his powers as an EG when he entered the realms, but when he was stripped of it, he was cut off and became trapped within them. As I said, the EGs didn't strip him of his power, Shinnok let them go in hopes of becoming the One ruler of Realms. He was wrong.

@nick_hero22 said:

@onilordasmodeus said:

@nick_hero22: So you are calling me irrational and a liar without any proof. Same old Nick I see.first off:"Onaga" wasn't capable and didn't pose a threat the the EGs, the threat always was, and still is, the One Being. The EGs made it possible to aquire the Kamidogu by putting them in the realms, and through the OB Onaga learned of them and their where abouts. Upon merging them, Onaga would have become the vessel for the OB's consciouness and ceased to exist. Direct conflict in the realms over this matter would have went against all the rules by which the EGs abide.Second:Shinnok was corrupted by the thought of power and thus he devised a plan to try and negate the other EGs and take the realms. IDK, maybe he thought if he could control the OB, or an aspect of it, he would be stronger than the rest of the EGs. Regardless, Shinnok was wrong as he was weaker than the EGs, and wasn't strong enough alone to take the realms. Shinnok alone is not omnipotent...and I never said he was.The "thought" of being omnipotent, or being more powerful than your piers, doesn't mean anything other than just that; he thought. I fail to see the point of your entire post other than an attempt to slight me and call names...again.

I like how to continuously ignore evidence and flat out fabricate events and situations to fit your prerogative. The video speaks for itself, it stated that once the kamidogus were fused Onaga was capable of overthrowing the Elder Gods which would highly suggest that they are in fact not omnipotent, and you still haven't addressed the whole Shinnok situation, if he thought he could negate the Elder Gods despite being a former Elder God wouldn't that suggest that they are omnipotent as well?

Again, what am I fabricating to fit my prerogative?

Pretty much everything you said is irrelevant, you still haven't addressed Onaga's ending where it is clear that he defeats the Elder Gods and he even states that he is the solo ruler of all the realms. The fact that Shinnok a former Elder God thought he could defeat the Elder Gods who are "supposedly" omnipotent would support theory that they are not as strong and powerful as they are played out to be, and Shinnok never relinquished his status it was stripped away from him when he was defeated by Raiden a primary god despite Shinnok being a Elder God during this time period, after he was defeated by Raiden he was casted out of the Heavens into the Netherrealm were he was tortured and humiliated by the former ruler of the Netherrealm Lucifer unil Quan Chi helped conquer the wastelands of Netherrealm. You think Shinnok a being who was a former Elder God would at least have some understanding of the power levels of the other Elder Gods. Those scans from Shujinko bio is irrelevant to anything I'm talking about, even in Li Mei's ending it was stated that Onaga with the kamidogus was able to slay most of the Elder Gods and force the rest of them into hiding.

@nick_hero22:

Wow! Now...who is lying?

Pretty much everything you haven't addressed Onaga's ending where it is clear that he defeats the Elder Gods and he even states that he is the solo ruler of all the realms.

As the one being he would have had the power to match the EGs, but the fact that he also absorbed the Kamidogu, all the Gods that the EGs had created in the realms, plus 2 fallen EGs, would suggest he had already absorbed enough of the EGs power to get enough of a 1up to "consume them" as well.

From the video, "he used their power against them and merged everything into himself."

The fact that Shinnok a former Elder God thought he could defeat the Elder Gods who are "supposedly" omnipotent would support theory that they are not as strong and powerful as they are played out to be

FALSE. All that it would suggest/prove is that Shinnok "gave into false illusions of power."

Shinnok never relinquished his status it was stripped away from him when he was defeated by Raiden a primary god despite Shinnok being a Elder God during this time period

If by stripped you mean that he was stripped of his amulet, the key to his EG powers in the realms, then yes he was stripped of his power. The amulet was the way he had access to his power as he gave that power up when he entered the realms. Think about Raiden. Did he keep his power when he left his EG post? No. Same thing here. Shinnok gave it up.

And for the record, Shinnok lost to Raiden because he was overconfident...that was in the text too.

...

Banished into the Netherrealm, tortured by Lucifer, Quan Chi...yada yada yada...all that is true, but the fact that you seem to want to ignore that the reason all this started was because "Shinnok gave in to greed and illusions of false power" and you want to replace it with your own story is beyond me.

Fact: Onaga was being influenced by the One Being who was the true mastermind behind collection of the Kamidogu and the merging of the realms.

Fact: Shinnok's Godhood was tied to his amulet and once he was stripped of it, he was stripped of most of his power.

Fact: The EGs had nothing to do with Shinnok loosing his power. Shinnok left his post; Shinnok created the Amulet (the key to his power in the realms); Shinnok lost the amulet due to his overconfidence and thus lost his power.

Why are you ignoring, or rather re-writing these facts? Why did he think he could take the EGs? Because he was stupid...period. It's ridiculous that you think because one god thought he could become stronger, now they all have to be less than. And the fact that he lost proves that they are weak?

If Odin said, "Hey, I feel like beating TOAA today," does that automatically make TOAA weaker? That's plain idiotic.

Zeus...

@onilordasmodeus said:

@isaac_clarke:You say "not in the least" that the Elder Gods of MK are the purest forms of the everything and the nothing that existed in the void before existence, yet that is exactly what the text alludes to and thus what they must be. You are disagreeing with the creators of MK, not me, on what their story says because you're not/can't believe what you are reading. Nothing is above them, as illogical as that may sound, as they are the the Alphas and the Omegas. They didn't come from anything and (to cap it all off) the everything to come came from them. The creator(s), the one(s) from which all things flows, they are omnipotent because they weren't just at the beginnning, they were the beginning, just as they to will also be the end.

Purest forms of everything? Eternity is quite literally the walking embodiment of the Marvel Multiverse - yet his various personas or equals have the awful habit of nearly destroying him and sometimes actually succeeding. The One Being can't even make the claim of being on his level. If the Elder Gods were the pinnacle of everything - they wouldn't have to deal with these constant threats from below whenever folks are about to boot their rears off the high-seat.

Smashing their opposition into the realms is hardly creation coming from the Elder Gods. They may be 'omnipotent' in the sense of being the top dogs of their cosmos most of the time, but they are simply small fish in terms of the fictional deities. There is no honest reason that the introduction of beings such as Eternity, Death, Oblivion, Galactus or Earth's various pantheons wouldn't dramatically warp the balance of power in their cosmos and have them free-fall off the totem pole.

1) Overall good showing on the scans, but you have far from disproved the omnipotence paradox, in fact, I think you supported my the argument that I presented. Your scan and example of TOAA being in the hospital shows that TOAA defies logic. He can do as he chooses, so in the same breath he/it can be weakandstrong;how is that not a paradox?
Also, you say that being at the beginning isn't a requirement of omnipotence yet that is precisely why TOAA is top dog (according to you). According toyourargument, 2 cannot be omnipotent if they are in the same food chain. In Marvel, everything came from TOAA because he was the one in the beginning that wrote everything, and he (according to you) can make beings stronger than him (the rock) as well as everything else,yet he is still top dog because he chooses to be,that sir is a paradox.

I don't see this paradox. In the sense we're discussing everything is the way it is because said being wants it to be that way - if they wanted to be a feeble old man and at the same time remain in absolute control - they do it. No the TOAA is the top dog because the TOAA has been depicted as having absolute control over reality. Simply being there first isn't grounds to call something omnipotent - tell that to Ouranos or Kronos.

2) What is war butchoicesand calculations. On one hand you can have a war that can consist of 2 individuals, and on the other it can encompass thousands. War is relative and you can try and diminishtheirwar, but war is war; struggle is struggle.

I'd actually attribute 'war' actually involving some measure of conflict - rather than having one's intentions to keep things as they are.

3) You comic guys are crazy. True omnipotence vs true omnipotence equals stalemate. Power showings? How can one "win" if the otherchoosenot to loose.

Yep, it is insane to base off one's arguments off feats and showings of power.

4) Single being? Where did that come from? In the beginning their were 2 beings equal in omnipotence; chaos ensued when one began to feed of the the other; in that chaos existence was created. I said the paradox is spread over the 2 entities as akin to how it is spread over the one in Marvel, period.

I'm sorry this argument where they're can be multiple omnipotent beings doesn't make sense with the actual term of omnipotence. At best someone in this scenario has to be nigh-omnipotent. You can't have two omnipotent beings in the same narrative.

1) I think you may have to explain your use of those scans. Thing was possessed by the power of the Hammer of Angrir and transformed in to something different. Thing may have become God-like, but that power wasn't divinely bestowed upon him , it was a borrowed power. Further more by the time Franklin used his powers, Thing was weakened.How does that prove that Zeus has authority over Thor's divinity?

He wasn't transformed into something different - he was someone different. The Worthy were all Asgardian Gods that the Serpent right before Odin one-shot kicks him separated into those magic hammers. If it was borrowed power the Thing would have some say in his actions, for the most part he at best prevented himself from butchering a few folks - outside that Angrir was in the driving seat, much like Thor is over Donald Blake.

Angrir was dying - not weakened. Franklin effortlessly restored the Thing to his normal form and essentially destroyed everything of Angrir in the process.

2) You haven't presented anything saying such, and have shown no evidence of this. If you can show Zeus turning Thor into a mouse, and thus rendering him completely useless in a fight, then I'd conceed.

Gallery

He had no issues turning Ares into a Gremlin / back or Zapping Thor himself straight back to Asgard. Simply put this argument where Zeus is powerless to do anything to Thor or at the very least the same he did to Dionysus(?) doesn't have any basis anywhere in reality. Zeus is already scoffing off the Odin enchantments of Mjolnir, blasting Thor into submission and what have you.

3) Levels of infinity is a logical concept, and it is this very concept about which we are debating. The EGs have shown no limitations as they have no superior in the MK universe to prove anything contrary to them being infinitely infinite. Their power is only matched by the omnipotent and equally infinite OB as both of them have absolute control over time, space, and matter. You are trying to quantify your infinite character as being more infinite than mine and I don't even see how that is possible. TOAA is infinite in power and has absoulte control in his space, but even he has no authority over, and thus isn't more powerful than, an entity that he didn't create and thus cannot re-write. TOAA has no power in DC or MK or any other universe, and the same concept goes for for MK. The only thing is in MK there were 2 in the beginning in the same space, where in Marvel, TOAA was the only one at the beginning and thus he is the only alpha.

If they had no limitations they wouldn't have nearly the number of issues threatening their supremacy that they do. Oh dear lord you're blowing the Elder Gods to epic proportions when you're claiming them to be infinitely infinite. I'm not trying to argue anything at this point - Zeus is without question far more powerful than Raiden has ever been depicted as - the Elder Gods themselves have nothing on a plethora of skyfathers that sit around Earth.

What someone that wrote something at Marvel can't hop ship and write up narrative for either? This argument "They were in the begining!" or "They're all omnipotent!" lacks a great deal of substance.

4) Yeah, my source was incomplete. Odin and his bros did create the Earth and Heavens of Earth...but what about the other planets and other peoples through out the universe?Ymir was a celestial from which Heaven and Earth were created but Odin seems to have no ties with the rest of the universe and its creation. Through the EGs and the OBeverthingwas created; Earth, Heaven, and all the other realms in the universe (all 17 realms in one instance).Allthe planets were given life through them andall life through out the universeis "powered", rather comprised, of the infinity that is the OB; physical, spiritual, and everything else in between. How is Odin slaying a Celestial and creating Earth and its Heaven, even remotely on the same level as not just creating, but actually being equal to the infinite potential that is the universe?

So you're arguing how non-existent beings in Norse Mythology must be there on other worlds and not have originated from Norse myth.

Like I said before when I compared MK to Norse mythology,the EGs and the OB are like the 2 planets in the beginning. From those 2 planets came everything else, only in MK those planets would be sentient, actively using thier power to create, manipulate, and destroy.
Like what is described in Greek mythology, an infinite chaos spawns everything, an infinite chaos with infinite potential. The EGs and the OB are the abstract chaos of creation and death.

No they aren't. They sure as hell aren't Nyx, Gaea or the heavens / cosmos themselves in a physical form.

@Vaeternus said:

If the One Being was more powerful or capable of "over throwing the Elder Gods" then they would have done so already, based on overall evidence while Omni is right both are more like the ying and the yang of MKU, both are omnipotent and I'd say the EG's have the edge if anything being as how they made the realms from the One Being's conscience years ago....with Earth being the center of power.

Clearly you two have a great deal of confusion as to what Omnipotence means to begin with when you start claiming multiple individuals - as well as the being they combined their efforts to defeat are all omnipotent. It's nonsensical.

@Isaac,But it does since it is true....I don't see why you're still arguing over this topic of Elder Gods and One Being being omnipotent, both are but both are practically equal, although so far when both fought EG prevailed which tells me they're slightly more powerful, the One being's "presence" is still out there however.

Saying more than a single being is omnipotent in the same continuity is inherently contradicting.

The original comics were off base anyway, but not canon...but was more for fun if anything(their powers in the comics were pretty accurate although the "battles" were not since they weren't canon. Example, Raiden never fought Kano...in the comics they fought. In the games/canon story, never happened and if it did would last few seconds if that long. GOW is obviously based off of original mythologies, greek mostly but Kratos is a made up character within that saga. Like comics, some games draw ideas off of greek mythology

If that was the case - they did a pretty poor job of representing said characters. In that sense - it is based off the original myth as much as Wrath of the Titans was - which more or less channels GOW. There is a reason the staff jumped for joy when Stan-Lee visited them as they made GOW3.

It's not always in peril, most of the time it's not and they don't want to be bothered...but if most, they're just threatened and usually tell or power up others to "deal" with it, if that don't work they deal with it themselves. Devil is very much like the One Being, the One Being=evil and wants to corrupt everyone and everything....like it did with Onaga's non-canon ending "what if scenario" I don't see how the EG being omnipotent has to do with you thinking the One being isn't more or less MKU's devil influence.

Their universe is always in some form of peril (mainly due to it's small size) the Elder Gods resorting to sending someone else to defend them or empowering Raiden with their power to fight Shao Kahn does exactly scream in one's mind how 'Omnipotent' they are. Implying the Devil is "very much like" the devil - despite that not at all being the case - implies you might not entirely be all that informed on the devil.

Huh? Hardly dude, the EG's defeated the One Being, and created the entire MKU from it years ago...how are they in a pickel? They just don't want to be bothered...that's all. He's the only Elder God that's seen kombat and it isn't the fault of the audience to be wholeheartedly unimpressed.

The moment they don't have someone coming to their rescue - then you have a pickle. That's exactly right; it isn't the audiences fault that the only Elder God to see action has thus far been rather unimpressive.

So what exactly if Raiden was the only Elder God at one point? Well, that's because the audience you refer to aren't familiar with MKU...it's a comic site. So could the EG, they did so years ago from the One Being's essense...again. lol you're right it's not bad for a mutant but realistically speaking Franklin isn't top 4 most powerful in MU is he?

Toss Raiden into the MU and he wouldn't even make it to the top 100. No matter how you slice it Franklin plays god a lot better than the Elder Gods do and without showings where they make their own universes in the palm of their hands (with only their own power, rather than OB being involved in the process in anyway) to put in a closet and be god.

I agree and you're right WW isn't human but I think she should still be able to "breath" in space...that's what I'm saying considering Flash and people like Cheetah have hurt her or can hurt her...yet space doesn't effect her? Ok...even other WW fans on here said the DS omega beams feat was pis, yet in one arch Zoom owns her and the JL, then in another she beats Zoom blindfolded then drags him with her lasso(great consistency there lol)

There's nothing to breath in space to begin with - why some characters with insane levels of stamina would require air doesn't particularly matter. No idea why Zoom and the Flash are being brought up.

Ok, while you bring a fair point on the "feats" gig I'm pretty certain Superman One Million would defeat and destroy Big G....as that topic explained, When you're THAT much more powerful who cares about "well Galactus has more feats" but is he top 4 most powerful MU character? Nope....I'm sure he's top 10 but not top 3 or 4, Superman Prime ONe Million however is considered by DCU to be top 5 when I checked. He just has few feats but still, all knowledge of the universe? Has his own universe? No weaknesses? Come on...Galactus can't even eat without heralds doing his work for him...I'm a little confused with your ring thing, Prime used rings? You're talking about the lois gig when he needed her dna? outside of that, he had no trouble doing anything else and unlike Big G, needs no food to live..

Being certain of anything would require some basis in fact; otherwise it's an assumption - a claim. Galactus on panel has done everything SOM has done and in his higher end fights has simply shown a considerable amount more power to boot. Prime would have issues in a debate against Odin.

Superman Prime One Million isn't in the top five, hell the most powerful iteration of Superman isn't even Superman but the Thought Robot.

• 1. Primal Monitor
• 2. Presence.
• 3. Thought Robot
• 4. Mandrakk
• 5. Michael / Lucifer
• 6. Death - though she is arguably a lot higher than this.
• 7+. The Endless come to mind, so do 5D Imps galore, the Spectre and what have you.

Where you came to the conclusion that he was anywhere close I wouldn't have any idea how. Galactus is sporting a hunger that exceeds the energy the entire universe will provide for it's entire existence - a star can't sustain him in any shape or form; namely why he took off a billion years from the Sol System star in a fairly short amount of time. You act like bringing back the long deceased is a big deal - Galactus didn't need DNA to bring back a korbinite for Bill to love or Franklin.

@isaac_clarke:

Eternity?! Eternity is quite literally Time. All of time. That is still a far cry from everything. Death, oblivion, eternity, etc., they are all aspects of what the OB is; nothing more.

1) The fact that you are refusing to acknowledge that an omnipotence paradox exists sums up this debate. Close you eyes and ears all you want, logically 2 opposite things cannot happen at the same time in the same space to the same entity. You can't be upside down AND right side up at the same time, or make a 5 sided triangle...unless you defy logic and make your own rules. At which point any argument against, or for, must be thrown out the window due to logic not being a viable method for which to judge. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradoxhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox

2) By that token, sure you can have 2 beings who are omnipotent existing in the same space. Them both being able to defy logic and make their own rules, they could exist together ifthey chose to coexist.

3) Transformed, possessed, it really doesn't matter. At that time, Thing wasn't a god. Your example doesn't work.

...

1) Wow. Zeus transporting Thor to a different place and time is the same as taking his divinity now, and Zeus exercising authority over someone in his pantheon is everything that we are talking about...OK. Zeus has no authority over Thor. Zeus may be more powerful, but he has not authority over Thor's divinity, period.

3) How many threats to the EGs are their? One? The one I've been talking about this whole time. Their equal? Wow.

4) No. In Marvel, are you saying that due to Odin slaying Ymir that this act was the genesis of all the 9 realms? Did Odin create the other celestials as well? Did Odin create eternity? Did Norrin Radd and his planet get his life from Odin? No. That is what I am saying. You say the EGs are small fish when in reality, they did much more than what Odin, or any Sky-father did, as what they created encompassed everything (infinite space) while what Odin did can only be encompassed by some things.

Go ahead and close you eyes and cover your ears. Go back to being as you were.

@Vance Astro said:

Zeus...

Zeus.

Zeus

@onilordasmodeus said:

Yeah dude, a few people in here seriously downplaying the EG and MK in general...but what else is new right? lol

@Isaac,

On the contray, clearly you mustn't understand fully what Omnipotent means being as how again...yes the Elder Gods and One Being are both...they've existed long before the realms were even a thought much less created and long before the MK tourney was even a concept, that is a rule requested by Raiden to the Elder Gods to give Earthrealm a chance...that being said. I don't see how it's nonsensical when it's just fact.

Saying more than a single being is omnipotent in the same continuity is inherently contradicting.

No it's not, again The Elder Gods and One Being are the ying and the yang, I don't see what's so difficult about such a simple concept or contradicting. Obviously you're not a fan of MK and don't follow it so I guess I can see how that's tough for you to understand however...

And yes WOTT is based off of Greek mythology...as are the DC and Marvel Gods....Odin, Zeus etc. Everything gets an idea from someone else with one already done or from some where...afterall, comics included.

No it's not, EARTHREALM is always in peril, NOT the MKU...big difference....yeah while the EG are omnipotent, it's called PLOT. Just like when you have stories like Dr. Doom stealing Galactus's power or Pre-ret beyonder then ret-coning everything...some plots are due to story or flat out PIS, but in reality in MK's case the Elder Gods simply don't want to be bothered it doesn't mean they're any less omnipotent because they are, and again they've dealt with every "threat" ever and never lost so yeah...Did you not see the ending of MK(? They merely possessed Raiden for a little bit and healed him instantly, but then escaped his body into one of their ethereal forms and killed Kahn instantly...

Actually, I'm well aware of what the devil is being a Christian, perhaps you're not aware of what "darkness" means or evil is in that sense....since the One being is both...

Wrong, they CHOOSE to power up others as their champion because IF that fails then they'll get directly involved. simple concept really...and if anything is impressive. Sounds to me like You're just hating on MKU(shocker)

Oh I'm sure that's debatable but if you're talking normal Raiden, perhaps who knows...EG Raiden would be top tier however for obvious reasons but Still, what you fail to understand is the EG and OB in MKU=TOAA and Presense of MKU. There is always a "God like" character or characters in fiction. Franklin doesn't play better then EG, for one he's a mutant who can be killed in his sleep so humor me...not even close. You just seem to be downplaying their feats or not realizing they don't have to get more involved because they're so powerful....

Yes, exactly mere humans on Earth need oxygen which is why it's retarded for them to "exist" in space...whether it's Flash or WW. You obviously aren't aware of past Zoom/Flash topics or the Flash in space scans...

.

Superman Prime One Million isn't in the top five, hell the most powerful iteration of Superman isn't even Superman but the Thought Robot.

And yet funny, in that Superman Prime One million topic you and like one other guy are the only two people trying to explain and justify why Galactus can beat Prime when in reality, he won't...Prime is in another league far above Galactus and he's nothing without his drones to do work for him or heralds rather....also, actually you're wrong. Prime One Million IS the most powerful version of Superman. Not a robot Superman. Then SA, Kal etc, etc The only one who's comparable to Prime One mill and SA would be SOS and perhaps All Star. There is no robot version more powerful then either of them. And yes, Prime is top 5. And no, no Galactus doesn't need DNA he only needs others to do his work for him in order to survive and eat planets...since he can't do it on his own...Prime doesn't need to eat, hell he doesn't even need Lois technically he CHOSE to have her back...

That list is off btw.

Presence

Spectre

AM

Prime One Million

Lucifer, Death

Everyone else

Do you not know that Presence=God of DCU? You don't seem to understand the concept of God characters I've noticed...

@venomoushatred1001 said:

@Vance Astro said:

Zeus...

Why was there a huge argument in here? Is it not obvious that Zues wins? 

@onilordasmodeus said:

@isaac_clarke:

Eternity?! Eternity is quite literally Time. All of time. That is still a far cry from everything. Death, oblivion, eternity, etc., they are all aspects of what the OB is; nothing more.

I'd check again:

There's a reason why his various equals (Chaos King) or parts (Abraxas) are capable of destroying him / the multiverse.

1) The fact that you are refusing to acknowledge that an omnipotence paradox exists sums up this debate. Close you eyes and ears all you want, logically 2 opposite things cannot happen at the same time in the same space to the same entity. You can't be upside down AND right side up at the same time, or make a 5 sided triangle...unless you defy logic and make your own rules. At which point any argument against, or for, must be thrown out the window due to logic not being a viable method for which to judge. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradoxhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox

I'm not refusing to acknowledge anything - I don't see this paradox. The entire concept of a truly omnipotent being isn't logical to begin with; the only rule is anything said being wants goes. No, I'd say what sums up this debate is MK fans really pulling at straws here. The reality of the matter is Zeus creams Raiden - nothing said here is remotely convincing to say otherwise.

2) By that token, sure you can have 2 beings who are omnipotent existing in the same space. Them both being able to defy logic and make their own rules, they could exist together ifthey chose to coexist.

I'm somewhat tired of arguing the obvious - you cannot have two omnipotent beings. That is the entire reason for the term nigh-omnipotence's use. You simply cannot have more than one truly omnipotent being.

3) Transformed, possessed, it really doesn't matter. At that time, Thing wasn't a god. Your example doesn't work.

Gallery

Notice that guy up there that looks a little like the Thing? That's Angrir and this was long before the Thing actually existed - right before Odin boots the Serpent into the ocean. Angrir - much like the other Worthy - are Gods. Continuing to argue otherwise is pointless.

1) Wow. Zeus transporting Thor to a different place and time is the same as taking his divinity now, and Zeus exercising authority over someone in his pantheon is everything that we are talking about...OK. Zeus has no authority over Thor. Zeus may be more powerful, but he has not authority over Thor's divinity, period.

You keep insisting Zeus for whatever reason is powerless to use his powers on Thor. Him transporting Thor seemed like a pretty obvious "no, that isn't remotely true." This argument that insists Zeus is powerless to do what Odin and Zeus have done to gods in the past because Thor is from a different pantheon is nonsensical. There is absolutely no reason Zeus cannot take away Thor's divinity just as easily as he did to Dionysus.

3) How many threats to the EGs are their? One? The one I've been talking about this whole time. Their equal? Wow.

Seems like just about every game someone is threatening their position of power in the cosmos. You have an odd definition of equal.

4) No. In Marvel, are you saying that due to Odin slaying Ymir that this act was the genesis of all the 9 realms? Did Odin create the other celestials as well? Did Odin create eternity? Did Norrin Radd and his planet get his life from Odin? No. That is what I am saying. You say the EGs are small fish when in reality, they did much more than what Odin, or any Sky-father did, as what they created encompassed everything (infinite space) while what Odin did can only be encompassed by some things.

Now we're back to discussion the Marvel iterations. Here's the thing Odin has an entire hierarchy of cosmic beings above him - some of which define the very cosmos. That's the main difference between Marvel and Mortal Kombat - there is no reason to think if you dropped Odin off there at full power he couldn't warp the hell out of the cosmos. But back to the whole Ymir bit - which I like to point as a good example of there being someone more tangible (despite how untrue it is) that Odin created the cosmos with his brothers - than the Elder Gods did; that's the hilarity of it all.

Infinite space? Our universe is finite - despite ever expanding - it is not infinite however. And there is nothing to indicate that the MKU is even as large or really resembling our cosmos in many ways at all.

Go ahead and close you eyes and cover your ears. Go back to being as you were.

Oh the irony that is Mortal Kombat fans in regards to these discussions.

@Vance Astro said:

Why was there a huge argument in here? Is it not obvious that Zues wins?

It is - but select folks are trying to place non-existent restrictions or pulling from the sky how powerful a particular iteration of Raiden is.

@Vance Astro : The argument devolved into something different, but to answer your question, no, it isn't clear that in a fight between Elder God Raiden and Zeus who would win. Zeus would more than likely take majority over Regular Raiden, despite the lack of feats shown on the Zeus side, but whatever.

@Vance Astro said:

Why was there a huge argument in here? Is it not obvious that Zues wins?

It is - but select folks are trying to place non-existent restrictions or pulling from the sky how powerful a particular iteration of Raiden is.

Zeus

@onilordasmodeus: I don't want to intervene in this debate, I just wanted to correct something. All abstracts constitute "everything" except Oblivion who is "the nothingness" and the opposite of "everything".

Also how does EG Raiden has better fighting skills when he's formless? I mean, when you're formless you basically don't exist in a physical body to interact with the world.