#1 Posted by highaccuser (7446 posts) - - Show Bio

No prep 
all at full force 
assuming they all have perfect knowledge of how to use their power

Kubik 
Kosmos
 Shaper of worlds
Parallax 
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#2 Posted by darkelf35 (518 posts) - - Show Bio

zhp

#3 Posted by New_World_Order (13290 posts) - - Show Bio

Zero Hour Parallax.

#4 Posted by highaccuser (7446 posts) - - Show Bio

when u say that, give more reasoning. cubes are able to best galactus like a bug.

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#5 Posted by Killemall (18635 posts) - - Show Bio

I dont think Kubik, Shaper or Kosmos are that high up in terms of power, despite being cosmic cube beings. I would personally favor Zero Hour Parallax given his multiversal feat, albiet done via channeling the energy of entropy.

My answer would have been different had you put it the two unrestricted cosmic cube beings in the equation, namely Molecule Man and Beyonder.

#6 Posted by highaccuser (7446 posts) - - Show Bio
@Killemall said:

I dont think Kubik, Shaper or Kosmos are that high up in terms of power, despite being cosmic cube beings. I would personally favor Zero Hour Parallax given his multiversal feat, albiet done via channeling the energy of entropy.

My answer would have been different had you put it the two unrestricted cosmic cube beings in the equation, namely Molecule Man and Beyonder.

so ur saying the cubes have a chance if post retcon MM and beyonder r on their team? makes sense.
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#7 Edited by Killemall (18635 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

so ur saying the cubes have a chance if post retcon MM and beyonder r on their team? makes sense.

Had either one been on the team i would have made a case for cosmic cube beings :)

EDIT: If you are interested i made a case for Post Retcon MM in Molecule Man vs Ion Thread

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/post-retcon-molecule-man-vs-classic-ion/741214/

Not sure if this helps.

#8 Posted by highaccuser (7446 posts) - - Show Bio
@Killemall said:

@highaccuser said:

so ur saying the cubes have a chance if post retcon MM and beyonder r on their team? makes sense.

Had either one been on the team i would have made a case for cosmic cube beings :)

EDIT: If you are interested i made a case for Post Retcon MM in Molecule Man vs Ion Thread

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/post-retcon-molecule-man-vs-classic-ion/741214/

Not sure if this helps.

Oh it helps, and also confuses me. Do cube beings access their full potential normally? or is that just MM? another thing,  ZHP is omnipotent, but i always felt he was below phoenix, chaos king, and anti-monitor. I mean he is multiversal, but he didnt create a universe with his own  power, he did it by making time malleable and using the guardians knowledge. are u saying u think beyonder and MM are stronger than pheonix, but weaker that the celestials?  
Ok, thats rather confusing so u just need to answer this: who do u believe is directly one spot below and above ZHP, the cubes, beyonder, and MM?
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#9 Edited by Killemall (18635 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

Oh it helps, and also confuses me.

Thats the beauty of cosmic beings in marvel and its whacked up hiearchy ;) We have 3 different origins of 616 universe, thats how awesome marvel universe is.

Do cube beings access their full potential normally? or is that just MM?

Cubes and cube beings dont normally have access to their full potential. This is because at some point they impose limitations on their powers. This was explained by Mephisto, now given he is the prince of lies, you tell me how much you believe in him :p

So upon maturity Cosmic cube put self imposed limitation on themselves. Then we know Kubik , Shaper and Kosmos are being evolved after a cube gained sentience so reasonable to believe the limitation cube puts upon itself would apply to them.

Beyonder and Molecule Man powers are a bit different.

Beyonder's origin is hard to understand as it has gone through so many different things, but most talked about Origin is a being imbued with the powers from Beyond , the source of all cosmic cube powers. Molecule Man is similar and got his powers by mistake. The difference between these 2 and beings that evolved from cosmic cube is they likely evolved from a cube who already put restriction on its own, while the same cant be said for molecule man and Beyonder.

NOTE: This is just an assumption made to explain the difference between 2 power level, a reasonable assume i would say, but i havent seen a issue or bio that explains why the power level is different, so take it as you will.

another thing, ZHP is omnipotent, but i always felt he was below phoenix, chaos king, and anti-monitor. I mean he is multiversal, but he didnt create a universe with his own power, he did it by making time malleable and using the guardians knowledge.

Zero Hour Parallax, channeling energies that do not belong to him was a multiversal power house , capable of affecting multiverse. That would put him above Phoenix though, Chaos King and Anti Monitor, assuming we are talking about COIE counterpart are above ZHP. The main source of ZHP is the left over energy of COIE, and with the left over energy you can be above the source of such energy can you?

Zero Hour 00: Explains he got his powers fromleft over energy from COIE

are u saying u think beyonder and MM are stronger than pheonix, but weaker that the celestials?

I am saying Beyonder and MM, post retcon, without plagued by Bendis are above both Phoenix and Celestial, their fight affected reality on trans-multiversal scale. We also know that after realising their full potential both Beyonder and MM are more powerful than other cosmic cube beings, who were said to be below celestials, and even that i find it hard to believe i think thats just one off statement which makes little sense.

Ok, thats rather confusing so u just need to answer this: who do u believe is directly one spot below and above ZHP, the cubes, beyonder, and MM?

The way i see it.

1. Molecule Man

2. Beyonder (Cosmic cube at true potential)

3. Zero Hour Parallax

4. Kubik, Kosmos and Shaper (Cosmic cube being with restrictions)

If you are interested, as i had to explain someone the entire showing of Parallax powers, here is the whole complete list of what happened to Zero Hour Parallax copy paste from another thread where i had to post everything.

Green Lantern Volume 3 , Issue 50 One shots the Guardians of OA, everyone (including Guardians and the GL corps members on OA) is killed barring Ganthet

Emerald Night Issue 1: Stomps Cyborg Superman and trap him inside the source wall.

These are feats from Parallax that appeared during Zero Hour before the actual Zero Hour series began.

Now lets look at feats and explanation for what happened during Zero Hour Itself.

Legionnaires 18: The effect of Hal's action are felt all the way up to 31st century, 1000 years in the future

Zero Hour 04: Stomped time trapper in his own realm, where he is nigh-omnipotent

Zero Hour 04: Erased 71st century from Existence

Zero Hour 04: 57th Century is destroyed as well

Zero Hour 04: Multiverse (infinite universe) dies because of Hal Jordan

Zero Hour 01: Put Extant in his place, who soloed JLA and JSA in Zero Hour

Zero Hour 01 and 00: Erase DC continuity and tried to start over anew

Dc 52, Week 7 and 8: Bio Confirms that Zero Hour destroyed and re-created entire DC timeline.

Zero Hour 00: Explains he got his powers from GL central battery and left over energy from COIE (i know this isnt a feat just putting it out there)

Zero Hour 00: Defeated Jim Corrigan , Spectre, in a straight up fight. The only other people i have seen beat Spectre in a straight up fight with plots like lack of soul, would be Mandrax and COIE AM , i think it says heaps about his power level. Note this was after Hal used a lot of power to erase and try and re-create entire DC continuity.

Zero Hour 00: Damage gets energy from Spectre, Parallax , Wave Rider and various heroes and finally defeats Parallax who has not only spent most of his energy re-constructing DC continuity but also has just fought Spectre.

So the reason we think Zero Hour Parallax is extremely powerful is because :

1. His actions affected the multiverse.

2. He was capable of erasing entire universes, which of course happened because he unleased entrophy wave on them, which he could do so in this fight, not sure how celestial could respond to that.

3. He fought and beat Spectre in a straight combat (arguable)

4. He erased entire DC continuity, thats puts him at a multiversal power level which Celestial are yet to show anything remotely close towards.

So now you know most of the feats from cosmic cubes and cosmic cube beings without restriction, and virtually ever feat from Zero Hour Parallax, so i let you decide what you think.

#10 Posted by X_insignia1 (1394 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

@Killemall said:

@highaccuser said:

so ur saying the cubes have a chance if post retcon MM and beyonder r on their team? makes sense.

Had either one been on the team i would have made a case for cosmic cube beings :)

EDIT: If you are interested i made a case for Post Retcon MM in Molecule Man vs Ion Thread

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/post-retcon-molecule-man-vs-classic-ion/741214/

Not sure if this helps.

Oh it helps, and also confuses me. Do cube beings access their full potential normally? or is that just MM? another thing, ZHP is omnipotent, but i always felt he was below phoenix, chaos king, and anti-monitor. I mean he is multiversal, but he didnt create a universe with his own power, he did it by making time malleable and using the guardians knowledge. are u saying u think beyonder and MM are stronger than pheonix, but weaker that the celestials? Ok, thats rather confusing so u just need to answer this: who do u believe is directly one spot below and above ZHP, the cubes, beyonder, and MM?

Are you implying that the phoenix made her own universe?

#11 Posted by thanobomb1124 (2015 posts) - - Show Bio

Zero hour parallex, I guess.

#12 Edited by highaccuser (7446 posts) - - Show Bio
@Killemall said:

@highaccuser said:

Oh it helps, and also confuses me.

Thats the beauty of cosmic beings in marvel and its whacked up hiearchy ;) We have 3 different origins of 616 universe, thats how awesome marvel universe is.

 
That's what attracts me to it in the first place.

Cubes and cube beings dont normally have access to their full potential. This is because at some point they impose limitations on their powers. This was explained by Mephisto, now given he is the prince of lies, you tell me how much you believe in him :p    


 I believe him as he had no reason to lie, though it is wierd that he told warlock and thanos that the cubes were MORE powerful than they thought if he wanted 1 in exchange for helping them.

So upon maturity Cosmic cube put self imposed limitation on themselves. Then we know Kubik , Shaper and Kosmos are being evolved after a cube gained sentience so reasonable to believe the limitation cube puts upon itself would apply to them.

Beyonder and Molecule Man powers are a bit different.

Beyonder's origin is hard to understand as it has gone through so many different things, but most talked about Origin is a being imbued with the powers from Beyond , the source of all cosmic cube powers. Molecule Man is similar and got his powers by mistake. The difference between these 2 and beings that evolved from cosmic cube is they likely evolved from a cube who already put restriction on its own, while the same cant be said for molecule man and Beyonder.

 The source of the cubes power is nigh-omnipotent called the beyonders. It is they who gave molecule man and beyonder the extra energies that they had in their pre-retcon forms. I believe your theroy, because unlike the other cube beings, beyonder and MM are not the matured cubes, rather they share the power of 1 cube, but not its limitations

Zero Hour Parallax, channeling energies that do not belong to him was a multiversal power house , capable of affecting multiverse. That would put him above Phoenix though, Chaos King and Anti Monitor, assuming we are talking about COIE counterpart are above ZHP. The main source of ZHP is the left over energy of COIE, and with the left over energy you can be above the source of such energy can you?

 I always thought phoenix was above multiverse destroyers(COIE AM, chaos king) but maybe i was doing something i greatly hate; overblowing phoenix. Remember, ZHP only toke SOME of the COIE energy, so i believe he is below AM. 

I am saying Beyonder and MM, post retcon, without plagued by Bendis are above both Phoenix and Celestial, their fight affected reality on trans-multiversal scale. We also know that after realising their full potential both Beyonder and MM are more powerful than other cosmic cube beings, who were said to be below celestials, and even that i find it hard to believe i think thats just one off statement which makes little sense.

 Give the celestials a break, they did beat the goblyn force with only the fourth host(exitar may or may not have been there) I think its reasonable that phoenix is above the cube beings. Though i suspect u disagree.
The way i see it.

1. Molecule Man

2. Beyonder (Cosmic cube at true potential)

3. Zero Hour Parallax

4. Kubik, Kosmos and Shaper (Cosmic cube being with restrictions)

 1 thing i have to say about this, Kubik beat beyonder. what explanation is there for that?

If you are interested, as i had to explain someone the entire showing of Parallax powers, here is the whole complete list of what happened to Zero Hour Parallax copy paste from another thread where i had to post everything.

Zero Hour 04: Stomped time trapper in his own realm, where he is nigh-omnipotent

 Hes nigh-omnipotent yet even with primes power he was beat by a ton of alternate legions (not trying to demean ZHPs power) 


3. He fought and beat Spectre in a straight combat (arguable)

 I do believe that spectre wasnt at full power but have no means of supporting that.

4. He erased entire DC continuity, thats puts him at a multiversal power level which Celestial are yet to show anything remotely close towards.

 So phoenix isnt multiversal. i can live with that im not a fan of her or anything.

So now you know most of the feats from cosmic cubes and cosmic cube beings without restriction, and virtually ever feat from Zero Hour Parallax, so i let you decide what you think.

 
lol u gave me those scans 1 day after i read zero hour. So do u believe ZHP made a universe with his own power? If so does it put him above abstracts?(freindless, chaos and order, love and hate) Who i believe are well above Chaos king and AM? also do u believe the (normal) cube beings exceed phoenix?
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#13 Posted by WillPayton (9558 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

The way i see it.

1. Molecule Man

2. Beyonder (Cosmic cube at true potential)

3. Zero Hour Parallax

4. Kubik, Kosmos and Shaper (Cosmic cube being with restrictions)

If you are interested, as i had to explain someone the entire showing of Parallax powers, here is the whole complete list of what happened to Zero Hour Parallax copy paste from another thread where i had to post everything.

Green Lantern Volume 3 , Issue 50 One shots the Guardians of OA, everyone (including Guardians and the GL corps members on OA) is killed barring Ganthet

Emerald Night Issue 1: Stomps Cyborg Superman and trap him inside the source wall.

These are feats from Parallax that appeared during Zero Hour before the actual Zero Hour series began.

Now lets look at feats and explanation for what happened during Zero Hour Itself.

Legionnaires 18: The effect of Hal's action are felt all the way up to 31st century, 1000 years in the future

Zero Hour 04: Stomped time trapper in his own realm, where he is nigh-omnipotent

Zero Hour 04: Erased 71st century from Existence

Zero Hour 04: 57th Century is destroyed as well

Zero Hour 04: Multiverse (infinite universe) dies because of Hal Jordan

Zero Hour 01: Put Extant in his place, who soloed JLA and JSA in Zero Hour

Zero Hour 01 and 00: Erase DC continuity and tried to start over anew

Dc 52, Week 7 and 8: Bio Confirms that Zero Hour destroyed and re-created entire DC timeline.

Zero Hour 00: Explains he got his powers from GL central battery and left over energy from COIE (i know this isnt a feat just putting it out there)

Zero Hour 00: Defeated Jim Corrigan , Spectre, in a straight up fight. The only other people i have seen beat Spectre in a straight up fight with plots like lack of soul, would be Mandrax and COIE AM , i think it says heaps about his power level. Note this was after Hal used a lot of power to erase and try and re-create entire DC continuity.

Zero Hour 00: Damage gets energy from Spectre, Parallax , Wave Rider and various heroes and finally defeats Parallax who has not only spent most of his energy re-constructing DC continuity but also has just fought Spectre.

So the reason we think Zero Hour Parallax is extremely powerful is because :

1. His actions affected the multiverse.

2. He was capable of erasing entire universes, which of course happened because he unleased entrophy wave on them, which he could do so in this fight, not sure how celestial could respond to that.

3. He fought and beat Spectre in a straight combat (arguable)

4. He erased entire DC continuity, thats puts him at a multiversal power level which Celestial are yet to show anything remotely close towards.

So now you know most of the feats from cosmic cubes and cosmic cube beings without restriction, and virtually ever feat from Zero Hour Parallax, so i let you decide what you think.

ZH Parallax DID NOT erase the entire DC continuity, he only destroyed the universe... the one universe, and then create a new one. This is shown right there in the scans you posted. When characters refer to destroying the "timestream" they mean all of time which exists within the universe. Everything in the past, present, and future are still all just part of the universe.

The only one talking about destroying the multiverse is Wave Rider, who was talking about the COIE.

Also notice that if Hal had indeed destroyed all DC continuity, then Spectre wouldnt be there to fight him afterwards, would he?

Read your scans again. When they talk about the timeline and "all of existence", they're talking about the one universe. Even Hal says that the universe was messed up and he wanted to fix it.

#14 Posted by highaccuser (7446 posts) - - Show Bio
@WillPayton said: 
ZH Parallax DID NOT erase the entire DC continuity, he only destroyed the universe... the one universe, and then create a new one. This is shown right there in the scans you posted. When characters refer to destroying the "timestream" they mean all of time which exists within the universe. Everything in the past, present, and future are still all just part of the universe.

The only one talking about destroying the multiverse is Wave Rider, who was talking about the COIE.

Also notice that if Hal had indeed destroyed all DC continuity, then Spectre wouldnt be there to fight him afterwards, would he?

Read your scans again. When they talk about the timeline and "all of existence", they're talking about the one universe. Even Hal says that the universe was messed up and he wanted to fix it.

 
Where is this coming from? Just because all time periods are in the same universe dosent mean destroying the universe is the same as destorying the continuity. Also if u really do believe he made a universe, ur saying hes MORE powerful than everyone thinks, because universe making is a higher feat than all this.
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#15 Posted by Killemall (18635 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton said:

ZH Parallax DID NOT erase the entire DC continuity, he only destroyed the universe... the one universe, and then create a new one. This is shown right there in the scans you posted. When characters refer to destroying the "timestream" they mean all of time which exists within the universe. Everything in the past, present, and future are still all just part of the universe.

The only one talking about destroying the multiverse is Wave Rider, who was talking about the COIE.

Also notice that if Hal had indeed destroyed all DC continuity, then Spectre wouldnt be there to fight him afterwards, would he?

Read your scans again. When they talk about the timeline and "all of existence", they're talking about the one universe. Even Hal says that the universe was messed up and he wanted to fix it.

Two things contradicts that, one this:

Zero Hour 04: Multiverse (infinite universe) dies because of Hal Jordan

But you are saying Waverider doesnt know what he is talking about right, well bio verifies that.

Dc 52, Week 7 and 8: Bio Confirms that Zero Hour destroyed and re-created entire DC timeline.

Look at this scan for instance

As it reads "Every world, every plane of existince you knew would be eliminated.

Or read this scan:

As it reads: "He would have created multiple universes, with multiple earths, unwittingly restoring much of what existed before the crisis."

And finally this:

As per one universe being stated, DC continuity at that time had one universe, which had spawned various future timelines, all of which was affected. Zero Hour would have brought back the entire multiverse had he not been stopped. He was indeed affecting the multiverse with his action, and hence his power was multiverse.

He did affect the entire timeline in DC at that time, because there are only 1 time line in DC. The multiverse was erased to all but 1 universe during COIE, and restored to 52 universe during Infinity Crisis, thanks to Alex Luthor.

#16 Posted by WillPayton (9558 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

@WillPayton said:
ZH Parallax DID NOT erase the entire DC continuity, he only destroyed the universe... the one universe, and then create a new one. This is shown right there in the scans you posted. When characters refer to destroying the "timestream" they mean all of time which exists within the universe. Everything in the past, present, and future are still all just part of the universe.

The only one talking about destroying the multiverse is Wave Rider, who was talking about the COIE.

Also notice that if Hal had indeed destroyed all DC continuity, then Spectre wouldnt be there to fight him afterwards, would he?

Read your scans again. When they talk about the timeline and "all of existence", they're talking about the one universe. Even Hal says that the universe was messed up and he wanted to fix it.


Where is this coming from? Just because all time periods are in the same universe dosent mean destroying the universe is the same as destorying the continuity. Also if u really do believe he made a universe, ur saying hes MORE powerful than everyone thinks, because universe making is a higher feat than all this.

I have no idea what you're even asking.

In any case, it's not my opinion that he made a new universe. It's what happens in the scans above:

Hal says "Time for a new start, clean slate. A re-made universe, my universe. Who knows? Maybe one universe... one world-- won't be enough."

So he had the power to destroy the universe, and create at least one new one. But that still doesnt mean he destroyed the entire multiverse. It doesnt mean he destroyed the entire DC continuity, which clearly he didnt. It doesnt say he did anywhere, and the fact that Spectre was still around demonstrates that he didnt. ZH Hal just didnt have that kind of power.

#17 Posted by highaccuser (7446 posts) - - Show Bio
@X_insignia1 said:

Are you implying that the phoenix made her own universe?

No she is completely unable to do that. im saying im not sure ZHP used his own power to do so.
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#18 Posted by WillPayton (9558 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

Zero Hour 04: Multiverse (infinite universe) dies because of Hal Jordan

But you are saying Waverider doesnt know what he is talking about right, well bio verifies that.

I didnt say Waverider didnt know what he was talking about, I said that Waverider was talking about COIE. He'd never heard of it and was stunned when he found out what had happened.

Waverider: "A 'Crisis'... I have not heard of such a thing"

@Killemall said:

Dc 52, Week 7 and 8: Bio Confirms that Zero Hour destroyed and re-created entire DC timeline.

Look at this scan for instance

As it reads "Every world, every plane of existince you knew would be eliminated.

Or read this scan:

As it reads: "He would have created multiple universes, with multiple earths, unwittingly restoring much of what existed before the crisis."

When they're talking about "worlds" and "planes of existence" they're talking about planets and dimensions within the universe.

Yes, Hal might have created multiple universes. He said so himself, he wanted to create one or maybe more universes.

Also, destroying the entire "timeline" just means destroying all time. Time exists within the universe. Other things like Spectre or The Presence exist outside of time, hence outside the universe. Therefore... even if there's only 1 universe in DC, it doesnt meant everything in DC is destroyed if the universe is destroyed. I already pointed out that the Spectre was still around after what Hal did.

@Killemall said:

And finally this:

As per one universe being stated, DC continuity at that time had one universe, which had spawned various future timelines, all of which was affected. Zero Hour would have brought back the entire multiverse had he not been stopped. He was indeed affecting the multiverse with his action, and hence his power was multiverse.

He did affect the entire timeline in DC at that time, because there are only 1 time line in DC. The multiverse was erased to all but 1 universe during COIE, and restored to 52 universe during Infinity Crisis, thanks to Alex Luthor.

So we both agree, Hal only destroyed one universe. But as I pointed out above, the DC continuity includes things that are not inside the universe, and Hal didnt destroy those. Also, just because DC only had 1 universe and Hal destroyed it, it doesnt imply that Hal can destroy any number of universes that would exist. If DC had 100 universes, Hal still could only destroy 1.

#19 Posted by dondave (38555 posts) - - Show Bio

Zero Hour Parallax ftw

#20 Posted by X_insignia1 (1394 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

@X_insignia1 said:

Are you implying that the phoenix made her own universe?

No she is completely unable to do that. im saying im not sure ZHP used his own power to do so.

oh alright, thanks for the clarification.

#21 Posted by Killemall (18635 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton said:

When they're talking about "worlds" and "planes of existence" they're talking about planets and dimensions within the universe.

Yes, Hal might have created multiple universes. He said so himself, he wanted to create one or maybe more universes.

Also, destroying the entire "timeline" just means destroying all time. Time exists within the universe. Other things like Spectre or The Presence exist outside of time, hence outside the universe. Therefore... even if there's only 1 universe in DC, it doesnt meant everything in DC is destroyed if the universe is destroyed. I already pointed out that the Spectre was still around after what Hal did.

There is 1 earth in each universe at any given time. Its the earth that seperates DC universes.

The last paragraph you are blaming me for saying something i never said. He did erase DC continuity (i.e. the one and only universe that existed). Anything outside it was not deleted.

So we both agree, Hal only destroyed one universe. But as I pointed out above, the DC continuity includes things that are not inside the universe, and Hal didnt destroy those. Also, just because DC only had 1 universe and Hal destroyed it, it doesnt imply that Hal can destroy any number of universes that would exist. If DC had 100 universes, Hal still could only destroy 1.

Not sure how any of this is relevant to what i was saying. 0-o

#22 Posted by WillPayton (9558 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@WillPayton said:

When they're talking about "worlds" and "planes of existence" they're talking about planets and dimensions within the universe.

Yes, Hal might have created multiple universes. He said so himself, he wanted to create one or maybe more universes.

Also, destroying the entire "timeline" just means destroying all time. Time exists within the universe. Other things like Spectre or The Presence exist outside of time, hence outside the universe. Therefore... even if there's only 1 universe in DC, it doesnt meant everything in DC is destroyed if the universe is destroyed. I already pointed out that the Spectre was still around after what Hal did.

There is 1 earth in each universe at any given time. Its the earth that seperates DC universes.

The last paragraph you are blaming me for saying something i never said. He did erase DC continuity (i.e. the one and only universe that existed). Anything outside it was not deleted.

So we both agree, Hal only destroyed one universe. But as I pointed out above, the DC continuity includes things that are not inside the universe, and Hal didnt destroy those. Also, just because DC only had 1 universe and Hal destroyed it, it doesnt imply that Hal can destroy any number of universes that would exist. If DC had 100 universes, Hal still could only destroy 1.

Not sure how any of this is relevant to what i was saying. 0-o

Maybe the problem here is our definitions of "continuity". To me the continuity is everything in DC comics. To me Hal destroyed the universe, but not the entire continuity. This is different from COIE where the entire DC continuity was changed... i.e. all the universes and everything that existed in DC, except of course for a few things they decided to not change.

#23 Posted by Killemall (18635 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton said:

Maybe the problem here is our definitions of "continuity". To me the continuity is everything in DC comics. To me Hal destroyed the universe, but not the entire continuity. This is different from COIE where the entire DC continuity was changed... i.e. all the universes and everything that existed in DC, except of course for a few things they decided to not change.

Fair enough, the way i see in continuity refers to Dc universe , or unvierses that exist at a point in time. After all thats the canvus where their stories are based on. Above and beyond the universe DC/ Vertigo has void outside creation and Heaven/ Hell, neither of which was touched by COIE or Parallax.

Point i was putting forward was his power is multiversal, as in he could affect multiverse. Therefore a being who can do so would be similar in power level, i.e. cosmic cube beings at full potential, give the latter have other better feats they likely are more powerful.

So i was trying to draw a parallel on power level of cosmic cube beings and Zero Hour Parallax.

#24 Posted by WillPayton (9558 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@WillPayton said:

Maybe the problem here is our definitions of "continuity". To me the continuity is everything in DC comics. To me Hal destroyed the universe, but not the entire continuity. This is different from COIE where the entire DC continuity was changed... i.e. all the universes and everything that existed in DC, except of course for a few things they decided to not change.

Fair enough, the way i see in continuity refers to Dc universe , or unvierses that exist at a point in time. After all thats the canvus where their stories are based on. Above and beyond the universe DC/ Vertigo has void outside creation and Heaven/ Hell, neither of which was touched by COIE or Parallax.

Point i was putting forward was his power is multiversal, as in he could affect multiverse. Therefore a being who can do so would be similar in power level, i.e. cosmic cube beings at full potential, give the latter have other better feats they likely are more powerful.

So i was trying to draw a parallel on power level of cosmic cube beings and Zero Hour Parallax.

I agree that he's multiversal, but I'd put him at low multiversal level... compared to people like IG Thanos, who is a higher level multiversal threat.

#25 Posted by Killemall (18635 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton said:

I agree that he's multiversal, but I'd put him at low multiversal level... compared to people like IG Thanos, who is a higher level multiversal threat.

Fair enough, i would do the same. IG > Cosmic cube, has been thus far.

BTW, IG might come out looking very ordinary after the current Hickman series, so not too sure on the current power level of IG. I am certain they are not going to potray it on classic level as that would end the story right there and then.

#26 Edited by highaccuser (7446 posts) - - Show Bio
@Killemall said:

BTW, IG might come out looking very ordinary after the current Hickman series, so not too sure on the current power level of IG. I am certain they are not going to potray it on classic level as that would end the story right there and then.

Getting off topic here. U still havent explained how kubik beat beyonder. Another thing, i find it wierd that beyoner an MM are above al other cube beings, yet they are only HALF a cube. it seems i have too long underestimated the cosmic cubes. Do u believe that ZHP made a universe on his own power, and does that put him above low/mid level abstracts? Do u believe individual cube beings(sans MM and beyonder) surpress the phoenix? if not i imagine they do so collectively. Also, u may not like it, but Kubik said he is DRAWFED by the celestials, but goblyn force made a good fight.
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#27 Posted by Killemall (18635 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

Getting off topic here. U still havent explained how kubik beat beyonder.

Kubik beats or rather stalemates Beyonder before he reaches his potential, in the same issue by merging with Molecule Man and forming a cosmic cube. Once the merging with Molecule Man is done, his power seem to have skyrocketed.

Another thing, i find it wierd that beyoner an MM are above al other cube beings, yet they are only HALF a cube.

They began as half of the cosmic cube their power slowly increases throughout, we dont know how.

So molecule man goes all evil for 1 issue and this is the conversation he has with Beyonder:

and this:

So make sense of it what you will.

Do u believe that ZHP made a universe on his own power, and does that put him above low/mid level abstracts?

Zero Hour was trying to make a universe, in fact re-created the perfect universe and had he not been stopped he would have created the multiverse had he not been stopped. So he had the power to create the universe, but never created one.

That being said yes i believe Zero Hour Parallax should be up around with the cosmic compass (4 pillars of universe: Eternity, Infinity, Death and Oblivion), but then its just my assumption, definitely not a fact.

Do u believe individual cube beings(sans MM and beyonder) surpress the phoenix? if not i imagine they do so collectively.

Ok this is hard. Cosmic cube being apart from MM and Beyonder dont have feats to show their superiority over Phoenix. They have versatility, not sure if they have the raw power, specially considering White Phoenix.

Beyonder and MM i would put above Phoenix anyday, i would also put a CCU (cosmic containment universe, or just a cosmic cube itself) above Phoenix.

Phoenix has a lot of potential, and even more hyperbole, on panel feats puts it at universal power level and thats about it.

Also, u may not like it, but Kubik said he is DRAWFED by the celestials, but goblyn force made a good fight.

I think that statement is bull. Because when Kubik fights Beyonder, he is hit by a bunch of planets and he doesnt even buzz. He even goes on to warp the universe in his palm, certainly more impressive than celestials i would say (barring Scanthan, that dude was too powerful).

Goblin Force actually fought a whole bunch of Celestial, while the statement from Kubik was made in regards to 1 celestial.

#28 Posted by highaccuser (7446 posts) - - Show Bio
@Killemall said:

Zero Hour was trying to make a universe, in fact re-created the perfect universe and had he not been stopped he would have created the multiverse had he not been stopped. So he had the power to create the universe, but never created one.

That being said yes i believe Zero Hour Parallax should be up around with the cosmic compass (4 pillars of universe: Eternity, Infinity, Death and Oblivion), but then its just my assumption, definitely not a fact.

 As you pointed out in my first forum, the cornerstones are capable of making universes. I put ZHP below chaos and order, but above any abstracts beneath them.

Do u believe individual cube beings(sans MM and beyonder) surpress the phoenix? if not i imagine they do so collectively.

Ok this is hard. Cosmic cube being apart from MM and Beyonder dont have feats to show their superiority over Phoenix. They have versatility, not sure if they have the raw power, specially considering White Phoenix.

 I always thought white phoenix was simply achieveing full potential WHILE having a human host and can do so without 1. That being said, i have nil to back this up.

Beyonder and MM i would put above Phoenix anyday, i would also put a CCU (cosmic containment universe, or just a cosmic cube itself) above Phoenix.

Phoenix has a lot of potential, and even more hyperbole, on panel feats puts it at universal power level and thats about it.

Agreed

Also, u may not like it, but Kubik said he is DRAWFED by the celestials, but goblyn force made a good fight.

I think that statement is bull. Because when Kubik fights Beyonder, he is hit by a bunch of planets and he doesnt even buzz. He even goes on to warp the universe in his palm, certainly more impressive than celestials i would say (barring Scanthan, that dude was too powerful).

 I read the statement (possibly just part of it though) and it seems people are assuming it means one celestial which would be unreasonable, but it could easily be the WHOLE RACE of celestials, which seems reasonable



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#29 Posted by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

ZHP has this.

#30 Posted by lol (5388 posts) - - Show Bio