• 56 results
  • 1
  • 2
#1 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

Rules:

  • Random Encounter
  • No Prep
  • Morals On
  • In Character
  • Basic Knowledge
  • Standard Gear
  • Win by Death, KO, or Incapacitation
  • No BFR
  • Start 100 feet apart

Fight here:

#2 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

While I'm no expert on Zatanna, I know that she has to speak the words of a spell backwards in order to cast it. Problems would arise, then, if she was unable to speak them. Blue Beetle should be able to help with that. He has sonic attacks which would drown out her words, and he has neural scramblers which would mess up her thought process.

#3 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

While I'm no expert on Zatanna, I know that she has to speak the words of a spell backwards in order to cast it. Problems would arise, then, if she was unable to speak them. Blue Beetle should be able to help with that. He has sonic attacks which would drown out her words, and he has neural scramblers which would mess up her thought process.

Actually Zatanna does not even need to speak to cast a spell, you didn't know?

How fast is his attacks? To do basic magic zatanna does not need to speak. Like she could disable him with EID!

Zatanna freezes a room filled with magical users-with a phrase

If the sonic attacks are not faster then a word then I do not see how they are working

#4 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn said:

Actually Zatanna does not even need to speak to cast a spell, you didn't know?

Do you have any evidence of this? Everything I've read indicates that she does, such as when Deathstroke punched her in the liver, causing her to vomit uncontrollably. She couldn't speak because of it, which made her unable to cast spells. Has she ever demonstrated the ability to do magic without speaking?

How fast is his attacks? To do basic magic zatanna does not need to speak. Like she could disable him with EID!

Jamie has very good reactions. He's fought characters with superhuman sped such as multiple Lanterns, and has dodged plenty of attacks, like energy blasts. Even if Zatanna managed to cast her "die" spell before Jamie could attack, the Scarab could help him to avoid the consequences. It's capable of rendering Jamie technically dead in the face of potentially fatal danger, and then reviving him unharmed.

So he could circumvent the effects of the spell because he does technically die, he just isn't stopped by it.

If the sonic attacks are not faster then a word then I do not see how they are working

Do Zatanna's spells always work instantaneously? And if they do, I've never seen her use a one-hit-kill spell in character, which she is here.

#5 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

Excuse me, but I mis said. She does not need to speak BACKWARDS to cast a spell. She mentions it here.

amie has very good reactions. He's fought characters with superhuman sped such as multiple Lanterns, and has dodged plenty of attacks, like energy blasts. Even if Zatanna managed to cast her "die" spell before Jamie could attack, the Scarab could help him to avoid the consequences. It's capable of rendering Jamie technically dead in the face of potentially fatal danger, and then reviving him unharmed.

Show me him dodging someone at Zatanna's level and I will take up this claim. Also, what if Zatanna did a freeze spell? Could he have Scarab come back and help him then if Zatanna froze time?

So he could circumvent the effects of the spell because he does technically die, he just isn't stopped by it.

I once again turn to Zatanna's feat of freezing a room filled with powerful magic users.

Do Zatanna's spells always work instantaneously? And if they do, I've never seen her use a one-hit-kill spell in character, which she is here.

#6 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn said:

Excuse me, but I mis said. She does not need to speak BACKWARDS to cast a spell. She mentions it here.

That's curious. How long was she "in balance" for? Because I'm fairly sure she was back in the fishnets by the end of the Old DCU. Also, in Seven Soldiers of Victory, Zatanna had a mental block preventing her from speaking backwards. She was unable to cast spells because of it. But either way, I only care about her having to talk to use magic. That slows her attack speed somewhat.

Show me him dodging someone at Zatanna's level and I will take up this claim.

Do you mean Zatanna's level of raw power? He's fought Eclipso, for one. And Kyle Rayner has some pretty ridiculous feats. Or are you talking about speed? Because as far as I know, GLs have better reactions, by and large, than Zatanna.

Also, what if Zatanna did a freeze spell? Could he have Scarab come back and help him then if Zatanna froze time?

The scan you posted won't enlarge for me. Would you mind posting it full-size? Thanks. And anyway, he has a couple of counters to a freeze spell. First of all, he can outreact Zatanna as far as I know. Deathstroke was able to blitz Zatanna in Identity Crisis, and he doesn't have nearly the travel speed that Jamie does. Second, the Scarab sees magic as just another form of energy. In the following scans, it's able to counteract a spell animating a bunch of magic tree monsters. So he should be able to just disrupt the freeze spell, if Zatanna's even able to cast it.

And what does your scan show? She's not using a 'killing' spell, and it's not even clear what effect her 'pots' spell is having from the one panel. And finally, it appears that she was already engaged in combat, so that spell isn't something she'll use right away, no matter how effective it is.

#7 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

hat's curious. How long was she "in balance" for? Because I'm fairly sure she was back in the fishnets by the end of the Old DCU. Also, in Seven Soldiers of Victory, Zatanna had a mental block preventing her from speaking backwards. She was unable to cast spells because of it. But either way, I only care about her having to talk to use magic. That slows her attack speed somewhat.

EID can kill someone or POTS can freeze someone in time. Has he showed any resistance to such a thing? If he hasn't then that swings the battle in Zatanna's direction. But as the feat says she does not need to speak backwards, she just just say "Die" instead of EID (Which is die backwards)

Do you mean Zatanna's level of raw power? He's fought Eclipso, for one. And Kyle Rayner has some pretty ridiculous feats. Or are you talking about speed? Because as far as I know, GLs have better reactions, by and large, than Zatanna.

I remember when Zatanna gave herself Black Canary's martial arts/abilities (The scan was on Imageshack but it was deleted) so this would tell me she could give herself Blue Beetle's abilities. So her current abilities with all of Blue Beetle's abilities and personality, that Zatanna should be dangerous already.

The scan you posted won't enlarge for me. Would you mind posting it full-size? Thanks. And anyway, he has a couple of counters to a freeze spell. First of all, he can outreact Zatanna as far as I know. Deathstroke was able to blitz Zatanna in Identity Crisis, and he doesn't have nearly the travel speed that Jamie does. Second, the Scarab sees magic as just another form of energy. In the following scans, it's able to counteract a spell animating a bunch of magic tree monsters. So he should be able to just disrupt the freeze spell, if Zatanna's even able to cast it.

Can't post it in full size, I have no idea how to, but it is proof Zatanna has froze that room with magic users capable of easily countering her spells.

How will he outreact her if she has his abilities and personality? As for this "Scarab" I feel like he's being used unfairly in this battle. If you use him I should use the supernatural demon Zatanna summoned. Zatanna can also counter spells

(I hate that imageshack won't load, here's the links: http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/2449/jla10216fcmt6.th.jpghttp://img158.imageshack.us/img158/8114/jla10217fcuo3.th.jpg ) The evil crice put a spell on the leauge members and Zatanna countered it.

And what does your scan show? She's not using a 'killing' spell, and it's not even clear what effect her 'pots' spell is having from the one panel. And finally, it appears that she was already engaged in combat, so that spell isn't something she'll use right away, no matter how effective it is.

POTS is Stop backwards. I just broke the myth that Zatanna must speak backwards to cast a spell, so she can just say "STOP!" and that stops her target, litterily. No questions asked.

Show me in any situation where Zatanna has not turned to her magic for aid? When the power went out, heck, she sent up a spell that provided years of solar energy.

So give me an example of Zatanna not turning to her magic right away in combat. Just because you say she won't doesn't mean she will.

#8 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn said:

EID can kill someone or POTS can freeze someone in time. Has he showed any resistance to such a thing? If he hasn't then that swings the battle in Zatanna's direction.

Jaime can counter the 'eid' spell by being literally dead with no permanent effects, as I showed above. He's actually done the same thing again in JL: Generation Lost. (Scans if you want them.) Do you have scans of 'pots' freezing someone in time? Does it essentially put them in suspended animation and Zatanna is still active? I'd like some more information on this before I try to counter it.

But as the feat says she does not need to speak backwards, she just just say "Die" instead of EID (Which is die backwards)

This is the problem with debating from respect threads. It seems obvious to me, both from my knowledge of Zatanna and the evidence I've already presented, that at some point either in that story arc or later on, she lost the ability to cast magic by speaking forwards. But since you took it from a respect thread and don't know the issue or story arc that scan is from, I can't check it. However, judging from the art, the issue is from roughly the late 90s. I've already mentioned how she couldn't use magic without speaking backwards in "Seven Soldier of Victory," which was published in 2004. So unless you can show a scan or direct me to an instance of her casting magic with forward-speak more recently than Seven Soldiers, I have to conclude that she does indeed have to speak backwards to cast spells.

This has very little impact on the battle, though, since she's been stated and shown to speak backwards almost as fluently as she speaks forwards.

I remember when Zatanna gave herself Black Canary's martial arts/abilities (The scan was on Imageshack but it was deleted) so this would tell me she could give herself Blue Beetle's abilities. So her current abilities with all of Blue Beetle's abilities and personality, that Zatanna should be dangerous already.

Here's the scan:

Green Arrow deduces that Zatanna has magically given herself Black Canary's personality, which evidently includes her martial arts knowledge. However, this can't be extended to her copying Jaime and becoming a Blue Beetle-powered magician for a couple of reasons. First, she only copied Black Canary's personality and skills. Not only does Green Arrow never mention Zay copying Dinah's powers, she never demonstrates the Canary Cry. So the only thing she could do is copy Jaime's personality and skills, which wouldn't be of much use without his armor. Second, Zatanna actually believes herself to be Black Canary, and is unable to use her magic because of it. Green Arrow has to trick her into saying something backwards in order to snap her out of this delusion and get her to use magic. So even if she could copy Jaime's powers, she wouldn't be able to use her magic as a consequence. She also seems momentarily confused when Oliver is talking to her, which would give Jaime an opening to launch an attack.

Can't post it in full size, I have no idea how to, but it is proof Zatanna has froze that room with magic users capable of easily countering her spells.

Here it is:

If you read the scan, Superman says "I think it's more the tone in Zatanna's voice than her spell that makes everybody freeze. That lady has quite a stage presence." Since the Scarab is a machine, it has no emotions and can't be intimidated. So her stage presence will be ineffective, even if Jaime himself is awed by it.

How will he outreact her if she has his abilities and personality?

Already covered this, but another problem is the fact that she'd have to cast a spell in order to copy his personality, and he can outreact that spell the same way he can outreact any other. As proof, I offer a few scans. Jaime can outdraw a Green, an Orange, and a Red Lantern at the same time, and then has the speed to dodge an attack from Kyle Rayner. He can also dodge energy blasts from multiple OMACS.

Zatanna, however, can't even cast a spell in the time it takes for the Joker to draw a gun and shoot her.

So Jaime's reactions seem to be much faster than the magician's, which would allow him to hit her with one of his many non-lethal weapons for a KO or Incapacitation.

As for this "Scarab" I feel like he's being used unfairly in this battle. If you use him I should use the supernatural demon Zatanna summoned.

The Scarab is the only thing that makes Jaime a superhero. He was bonded with a symbiotic piece of technology built by an alien race called the Reach. Here are a couple scans to explain:

Debating for Jaime without the Scarab is like debating for Green Lantern without the Ring or Cyborg without his cyborg parts. Not only is the Scarab his standard gear, it's literally his superpower.

If you feel that Zatanna can't win without it, you can debate for her summoning the demon, but it's not something that she often does in character and she can't start with it since it isn't standard gear.

Zatanna can also counter spells. The evil crice put a spell on the leauge members and Zatanna countered it.

All well and good, but since Blue Beetle doesn't cast spells this won't be of much use in this battle.

POTS is Stop backwards. I just broke the myth that Zatanna must speak backwards to cast a spell, so she can just say "STOP!" and that stops her target, litterily. No questions asked.

Again, I'd like to see a scan showing the effects of this spell. The one panel you posted only shows her casting the spell, not what it accomplishes.

Show me in any situation where Zatanna has not turned to her magic for aid? When the power went out, heck, she sent up a spell that provided years of solar energy. So give me an example of Zatanna not turning to her magic right away in combat. Just because you say she won't doesn't mean she will.

In the scan you posted of her countering Circe's spell, she doesn't think to use magic until Flash and Red Tornado are already fighting to the death. And here, she tries to beat Gorgonus using the environment and then tries to escape before resorting to magic:

But my point is less that she won't use magic and more that she'll wait until things are getting desperate before she tries anything really powerful like "eid" or "pots." Has she ever even used "eid" in a comic? I certainly can't remember it. The thing about Zatanna is that, as powerful as she is, she holds back all the time because she doesn't want to hurt people and because she often has issues with confidence. She won't resort to anything powerful right off the bat, and she doesn't really kill in-character, either, so unless you can show me an instance of her using a lethal spell like 'eid' when she's not mind-controlled or the like, we can discount that as an option entirely.

#9 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

This is the problem with debating from respect threads. It seems obvious to me, both from my knowledge of Zatanna and the evidence I've already presented, that at some point either in that story arc or later on, she lost the ability to cast magic by speaking forwards. But since you took it from a respect thread and don't know the issue or story arc that scan is from, I can't check it. However, judging from the art, the issue is from roughly the late 90s. I've already mentioned how she couldn't use magic without speaking backwards in "Seven Soldier of Victory," which was published in 2004. So unless you can show a scan or direct me to an instance of her casting magic with forward-speak more recently than Seven Soldiers, I have to conclude that she does indeed have to speak backwards to cast spells.

Before I respond to your long post, I uploaded those images myself..I know much of Zatanna, I only got 1 from a respect thread, which is the solar power one. Rest I uploaded, just for the record.

#10 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn: My mistake, sorry. Which story arc is the scan of her not needing to talk backwards from?

#11 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@MasterJohn said:

EID can kill someone or POTS can freeze someone in time. Has he showed any resistance to such a thing? If he hasn't then that swings the battle in Zatanna's direction.

Jaime can counter the 'eid' spell by being literally dead with no permanent effects, as I showed above. He's actually done the same thing again in JL: Generation Lost. (Scans if you want them.) Do you have scans of 'pots' freezing someone in time? Does it essentially put them in suspended animation and Zatanna is still active? I'd like some more information on this before I try to counter it.

But as the feat says she does not need to speak backwards, she just just say "Die" instead of EID (Which is die backwards)

This is the problem with debating from respect threads. It seems obvious to me, both from my knowledge of Zatanna and the evidence I've already presented, that at some point either in that story arc or later on, she lost the ability to cast magic by speaking forwards. But since you took it from a respect thread and don't know the issue or story arc that scan is from, I can't check it. However, judging from the art, the issue is from roughly the late 90s. I've already mentioned how she couldn't use magic without speaking backwards in "Seven Soldier of Victory," which was published in 2004. So unless you can show a scan or direct me to an instance of her casting magic with forward-speak more recently than Seven Soldiers, I have to conclude that she does indeed have to speak backwards to cast spells.

This has very little impact on the battle, though, since she's been stated and shown to speak backwards almost as fluently as she speaks forwards.

I remember when Zatanna gave herself Black Canary's martial arts/abilities (The scan was on Imageshack but it was deleted) so this would tell me she could give herself Blue Beetle's abilities. So her current abilities with all of Blue Beetle's abilities and personality, that Zatanna should be dangerous already.

Here's the scan:

Green Arrow deduces that Zatanna has magically given herself Black Canary's personality, which evidently includes her martial arts knowledge. However, this can't be extended to her copying Jaime and becoming a Blue Beetle-powered magician for a couple of reasons. First, she only copied Black Canary's personality and skills. Not only does Green Arrow never mention Zay copying Dinah's powers, she never demonstrates the Canary Cry. So the only thing she could do is copy Jaime's personality and skills, which wouldn't be of much use without his armor. Second, Zatanna actually believes herself to be Black Canary, and is unable to use her magic because of it. Green Arrow has to trick her into saying something backwards in order to snap her out of this delusion and get her to use magic. So even if she could copy Jaime's powers, she wouldn't be able to use her magic as a consequence. She also seems momentarily confused when Oliver is talking to her, which would give Jaime an opening to launch an attack.

Can't post it in full size, I have no idea how to, but it is proof Zatanna has froze that room with magic users capable of easily countering her spells.

Here it is:

If you read the scan, Superman says "I think it's more the tone in Zatanna's voice than her spell that makes everybody freeze. That lady has quite a stage presence." Since the Scarab is a machine, it has no emotions and can't be intimidated. So her stage presence will be ineffective, even if Jaime himself is awed by it.

How will he outreact her if she has his abilities and personality?

Already covered this, but another problem is the fact that she'd have to cast a spell in order to copy his personality, and he can outreact that spell the same way he can outreact any other. As proof, I offer a few scans. Jaime can outdraw a Green, an Orange, and a Red Lantern at the same time, and then has the speed to dodge an attack from Kyle Rayner. He can also dodge energy blasts from multiple OMACS.

Zatanna, however, can't even cast a spell in the time it takes for the Joker to draw a gun and shoot her.

So Jaime's reactions seem to be much faster than the magician's, which would allow him to hit her with one of his many non-lethal weapons for a KO or Incapacitation.

As for this "Scarab" I feel like he's being used unfairly in this battle. If you use him I should use the supernatural demon Zatanna summoned.

The Scarab is the only thing that makes Jaime a superhero. He was bonded with a symbiotic piece of technology built by an alien race called the Reach. Here are a couple scans to explain:

Debating for Jaime without the Scarab is like debating for Green Lantern without the Ring or Cyborg without his cyborg parts. Not only is the Scarab his standard gear, it's literally his superpower.

If you feel that Zatanna can't win without it, you can debate for her summoning the demon, but it's not something that she often does in character and she can't start with it since it isn't standard gear.

Zatanna can also counter spells. The evil crice put a spell on the leauge members and Zatanna countered it.

All well and good, but since Blue Beetle doesn't cast spells this won't be of much use in this battle.

POTS is Stop backwards. I just broke the myth that Zatanna must speak backwards to cast a spell, so she can just say "STOP!" and that stops her target, litterily. No questions asked.

Again, I'd like to see a scan showing the effects of this spell. The one panel you posted only shows her casting the spell, not what it accomplishes.

Show me in any situation where Zatanna has not turned to her magic for aid? When the power went out, heck, she sent up a spell that provided years of solar energy. So give me an example of Zatanna not turning to her magic right away in combat. Just because you say she won't doesn't mean she will.

In the scan you posted of her countering Circe's spell, she doesn't think to use magic until Flash and Red Tornado are already fighting to the death. And here, she tries to beat Gorgonus using the environment and then tries to escape before resorting to magic:

But my point is less that she won't use magic and more that she'll wait until things are getting desperate before she tries anything really powerful like "eid" or "pots." Has she ever even used "eid" in a comic? I certainly can't remember it. The thing about Zatanna is that, as powerful as she is, she holds back all the time because she doesn't want to hurt people and because she often has issues with confidence. She won't resort to anything powerful right off the bat, and she doesn't really kill in-character, either, so unless you can show me an instance of her using a lethal spell like 'eid' when she's not mind-controlled or the like, we can discount that as an option entirely.

Esquire here's all I can say, next time put characters in that are inside Zatanna's leauge. With this scarab this blue beetle seems to be unstoppable. From what I can see, Zatanna can do nothing to this guy, nothing at all.

Bye I suppose.

#12 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait wait wait, do you say she has to be mind controlled to say EID or POTS? What proof do you have of this? You are serously downgrading Zatanna, honestly.

#13 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn: Out of curiosity, what have I shown that makes you think that Blue Beetle is "out of Zatanna's league?" I've shown that he has decent reactions and sees magic as energy. Other than that, I've pretty much just refuted your assertions about Zatanna's character and power. I just reread what I've posted, and absolutely nothing I've shown puts him at all out of Zatanna's league.

Tell you what, if you still think BB is an unfair advantage for one of the most powerful magicians in the DC universe, I'll make a post refuting my points, just to show you that Blue Beetle is not only less powerful than Zatanna, she can realistically beat what I've shown of him. Then you can tell me if you still think Blue Beetle is out of Zatanna's league. Because she's actually quite a bit more powerful and versatile than he is. He has ways to beat her, but he's certainly not unstoppable nor out of her league.

#14 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn said:

Wait wait wait, do you say she has to be mind controlled to say EID or POTS? What proof do you have of this? You are serously downgrading Zatanna, honestly.

I've admitted that I'm no Zatanna expert, but I can't think of a single instance where she's used the 'eid' spell, in character or otherwise. If you have proof of her using it, I'd be happy to see it. And if I'm downgrading Zatanna so much, why can't you show me how she beats Blue Beetle?

#15 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@MasterJohn said:

Wait wait wait, do you say she has to be mind controlled to say EID or POTS? What proof do you have of this? You are serously downgrading Zatanna, honestly.

I've admitted that I'm no Zatanna expert, but I can't think of a single instance where she's used the 'eid' spell, in character or otherwise. If you have proof of her using it, I'd be happy to see it. And if I'm downgrading Zatanna so much, why can't you show me how she beats Blue Beetle?

Im asking for your proof, how has Zatanna used eid only when mind controlled?

#16 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn: That's not how debating works. First of all, I've already said that I haven't ever seen her use 'eid,' remember?

@Esquire said:

I've admitted that I'm no Zatanna expert, but I can't think of a single instance where she's used the 'eid' spell, in character or otherwise.

You can't just say "my character can do this! Prove that she can't!" I can say that Blue Beetle is actually a multiversal reality warper, that doesn't make it true. The burden of proof is on me to show that my claim is true. I've posted scans or feats to back up all of my claims regarding Blue Beetle, and I've posted scans or feats to back up all of my claims about Zatanna. I've said that, from both my experience reading comics with Zatanna in them and the research I've done, I have never seen Zatanna use an instant kill spell. If you can't show me a time she's used an instant kill spell, then I have no reason to believe that she's ever used one. Since the fight is in character, if she's never done something there's no reason to believe she'll do it now.

Again, the burden of proof is on you. I've showed you instances of all of my claims, but you haven't shown me proof to back up your claim that she can just say 'eid' and Jaime will die. Until I see some sort of evidence, I have no reason to believe that's something she'll do.

#17 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@MasterJohn: That's not how debating works. First of all, I've already said that I haven't ever seen her use 'eid,' remember?

@Esquire said:

I've admitted that I'm no Zatanna expert, but I can't think of a single instance where she's used the 'eid' spell, in character or otherwise.

You can't just say "my character can do this! Prove that she can't!" I can say that Blue Beetle is actually a multiversal reality warper, that doesn't make it true. The burden of proof is on me to show that my claim is true. I've posted scans or feats to back up all of my claims regarding Blue Beetle, and I've posted scans or feats to back up all of my claims about Zatanna. I've said that, from both my experience reading comics with Zatanna in them and the research I've done, I have never seen Zatanna use an instant kill spell. If you can't show me a time she's used an instant kill spell, then I have no reason to believe that she's ever used one. Since the fight is in character, if she's never done something there's no reason to believe she'll do it now.

Again, the burden of proof is on you. I've showed you instances of all of my claims, but you haven't shown me proof to back up your claim that she can just say 'eid' and Jaime will die. Until I see some sort of evidence, I have no reason to believe that's something she'll do.

As I said, this guy is unstoppable with this scaarab because your asking me for scans that have gotten deleted. So yes he is unstoppable and can kill Zatanna.

Happy? You win.

#18 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn said:

As I said, this guy is unstoppable with this scaarab because your asking me for scans that have gotten deleted. So yes he is unstoppable and can kill Zatanna.

Happy? You win.

And you can't even give me a story arc or issue number or victim to refer to? Even if she has used that spell, what was the context? From everything I've read with Zatanna and all I've read about her, she doesn't resort to particularly powerful or lethal attacks until the situation is already dire. I don't even need scans, can you just tell me someone that she's attacked with something really powerful like 'eid' without trying anything else first? There might be times it's happened, I just haven't seen it.

Blue Beetle isn't unstoppable. With morals off, he's maybe GL level or a little above Iron Man. He holds back a lot in character and would never resort to lethal attacks against Zatanna, so he's a lot less powerful than he could be at his peak. There are ways for him to beat Zatanna, yes. But I could make a good debate for Zatanna winning, and I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about her as you are. She's arguably the most powerful member of the Justice League, and she can't beat a teenager who's gotten beat up by Guy Gardner and Booster Gold? Zatanna won't stomp Blue Beetle, unless there's something really major I don't know about her. But Blue Beetle certainly won't stomp her, either. He's honestly a lot less powerful, and I haven't shown anything on the level of power Zatanna is capable of.

You've said I'm underestimating Zatanna, and I still think she has a good chance to beat Jaime. Why can't you show me how, if I'm underestimating her? I don't need scans, just some way to reference the context of when things happened.

#19 Edited by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@MasterJohn said:

As I said, this guy is unstoppable with this scaarab because your asking me for scans that have gotten deleted. So yes he is unstoppable and can kill Zatanna.

Happy? You win.

And you can't even give me a story arc or issue number or victim to refer to? Even if she has used that spell, what was the context? From everything I've read with Zatanna and all I've read about her, she doesn't resort to particularly powerful or lethal attacks until the situation is already dire. I don't even need scans, can you just tell me someone that she's attacked with something really powerful like 'eid' without trying anything else first? There might be times it's happened, I just haven't seen it.

Blue Beetle isn't unstoppable. With morals off, he's maybe GL level or a little above Iron Man. He holds back a lot in character and would never resort to lethal attacks against Zatanna, so he's a lot less powerful than he could be at his peak. There are ways for him to beat Zatanna, yes. But I could make a good debate for Zatanna winning, and I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about her as you are. She's arguably the most powerful member of the Justice League, and she can't beat a teenager who's gotten beat up by Guy Gardner and Booster Gold? Zatanna won't stomp Blue Beetle, unless there's something really major I don't know about her. But Blue Beetle certainly won't stomp her, either. He's honestly a lot less powerful, and I haven't shown anything on the level of power Zatanna is capable of.

You've said I'm underestimating Zatanna, and I still think she has a good chance to beat Jaime. Why can't you show me how, if I'm underestimating her? I don't need scans, just some way to reference the context of when things happened.

If I show you how all you are going to try to do is debunk the feats. I thought this would be productive and fun but I was dead wrong. I gave you a scan with proof that she doesn't need to speak backwards, you set a limit for 2006, and if I can't show you anything past that appearently it's irrelevant. I am finished.

You win, you happy?

#20 Posted by Dextersinister (5978 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn said:

@Esquire said:

@MasterJohn said:

As I said, this guy is unstoppable with this scaarab because your asking me for scans that have gotten deleted. So yes he is unstoppable and can kill Zatanna.

Happy? You win.

And you can't even give me a story arc or issue number or victim to refer to? Even if she has used that spell, what was the context? From everything I've read with Zatanna and all I've read about her, she doesn't resort to particularly powerful or lethal attacks until the situation is already dire. I don't even need scans, can you just tell me someone that she's attacked with something really powerful like 'eid' without trying anything else first? There might be times it's happened, I just haven't seen it.

Blue Beetle isn't unstoppable. With morals off, he's maybe GL level or a little above Iron Man. He holds back a lot in character and would never resort to lethal attacks against Zatanna, so he's a lot less powerful than he could be at his peak. There are ways for him to beat Zatanna, yes. But I could make a good debate for Zatanna winning, and I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about her as you are. She's arguably the most powerful member of the Justice League, and she can't beat a teenager who's gotten beat up by Guy Gardner and Booster Gold? Zatanna won't stomp Blue Beetle, unless there's something really major I don't know about her. But Blue Beetle certainly won't stomp her, either. He's honestly a lot less powerful, and I haven't shown anything on the level of power Zatanna is capable of.

You've said I'm underestimating Zatanna, and I still think she has a good chance to beat Jaime. Why can't you show me how, if I'm underestimating her? I don't need scans, just some way to reference the context of when things happened.

If I show you how all you are going to try to do is debunk the feats. I thought this would be productive and fun but I was dead wrong. I gave you a scan with proof that she doesn't need to speak backwards, you set a limit for 2006, and if I can't show you anything past that appearently it's irrelevant. I am finished.

You win, you happy?

We use most recent incarnations of the character so be this new 52 or pre he is right in that the limitations in Seven Soldiers trump scans that are as old as the ones you have presented. Esquire has come across as incredibly civil despite how childish you have been so enough with the cheek.

#21 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dextersinister said:

@MasterJohn said:

@Esquire said:

@MasterJohn said:

As I said, this guy is unstoppable with this scaarab because your asking me for scans that have gotten deleted. So yes he is unstoppable and can kill Zatanna.

Happy? You win.

And you can't even give me a story arc or issue number or victim to refer to? Even if she has used that spell, what was the context? From everything I've read with Zatanna and all I've read about her, she doesn't resort to particularly powerful or lethal attacks until the situation is already dire. I don't even need scans, can you just tell me someone that she's attacked with something really powerful like 'eid' without trying anything else first? There might be times it's happened, I just haven't seen it.

Blue Beetle isn't unstoppable. With morals off, he's maybe GL level or a little above Iron Man. He holds back a lot in character and would never resort to lethal attacks against Zatanna, so he's a lot less powerful than he could be at his peak. There are ways for him to beat Zatanna, yes. But I could make a good debate for Zatanna winning, and I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about her as you are. She's arguably the most powerful member of the Justice League, and she can't beat a teenager who's gotten beat up by Guy Gardner and Booster Gold? Zatanna won't stomp Blue Beetle, unless there's something really major I don't know about her. But Blue Beetle certainly won't stomp her, either. He's honestly a lot less powerful, and I haven't shown anything on the level of power Zatanna is capable of.

You've said I'm underestimating Zatanna, and I still think she has a good chance to beat Jaime. Why can't you show me how, if I'm underestimating her? I don't need scans, just some way to reference the context of when things happened.

If I show you how all you are going to try to do is debunk the feats. I thought this would be productive and fun but I was dead wrong. I gave you a scan with proof that she doesn't need to speak backwards, you set a limit for 2006, and if I can't show you anything past that appearently it's irrelevant. I am finished.

You win, you happy?

We use most recent incarnations of the character so be this new 52 or pre he is right in that the limitations in Seven Soldiers trump scans that are as old as the ones you have presented. Esquire has come across as incredibly civil despite how childish you have been so enough with the cheek.

Dex, stay out please? All you seem to do is give me backhanded insults on threads that invovle me. I have nothing more to offer, he won, how is this childish?

#22 Edited by Killemall (18536 posts) - - Show Bio

Contrary to how it was decided having read the thread its clear Esquire has won rather handily.

Although, i am quite sure her ability to cast forward spell have never been officially take away, its just seem to be forgotten or has gotten an implied retcon.

There are quite a bit of feats that could have been posted for Zatanna, like he ability to make herself such that any harmed thrown her way would affect the scarab instead, or her magical transmutation power she has.

Also she can write spells without actually saying it out loud. But if the scrab fries his mind before she reacts, or does anything, which is not really in character of Blue Beetle, then well thats that :p

#23 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn: The whole point of a debate is using valid feats to prove why one character is superior to another. If your feats can be debunked, they are by definition not valid. I'm open to continuing this debate with you, but if you really have so little faith in Zatanna, I understand why you want to concede. I'm sorry you didn't have fun, I certainly enjoyed myself. If you ever want to debate in the future, I'm always open to a good match.

Thanks for your kind words!

@Killemall: I've still got a few more feats for BB as far as magic goes. I'm no Zatanna expert, but I'd be interested to see where it would go if you wouldn't mind bringing up some of her better feats. This is an interesting fight to me, because both characters are extremely powerful but both also hold back a lot. Would you be interested in a quick debate?

#24 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12021 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, it's clear who the winner is, its also clear who the sore loser is ........ poor sportsman ship @MasterJohn:, poor indeed.....

Esquire FTW

#25 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ancient_0f_Days said:

Well, it's clear who the winner is, its also clear who the sore loser is ........ poor sportsman ship @MasterJohn:, poor indeed.....

Esquire FTW

You must not have anything better but to insult me.

#26 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@MasterJohn: The whole point of a debate is using valid feats to prove why one character is superior to another. If your feats can be debunked, they are by definition not valid. I'm open to continuing this debate with you, but if you really have so little faith in Zatanna, I understand why you want to concede. I'm sorry you didn't have fun, I certainly enjoyed myself. If you ever want to debate in the future, I'm always open to a good match.

Thanks for your kind words!

@Killemall: I've still got a few more feats for BB as far as magic goes. I'm no Zatanna expert, but I'd be interested to see where it would go if you wouldn't mind bringing up some of her better feats. This is an interesting fight to me, because both characters are extremely powerful but both also hold back a lot. Would you be interested in a quick debate?

I have much faith in her, I just can not get it through your head. A majority of my scans were discarded and deleted by Imageshack. If that wasn't the case i'd still be continuing this debate, if you can take comic book names and my word along with those names I'l be glad to continue this.

#27 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn said:

I have much faith in her, I just can not get it through your head. A majority of my scans were discarded and deleted by Imageshack. If that wasn't the case i'd still be continuing this debate, if you can take comic book names and my word along with those names I'l be glad to continue this.

As I said before, I don't need scans. If you can give me the names of the comics or the story arcs or something like that, then I'm happy to accept it.

#28 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12021 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn said:

@Ancient_0f_Days said:

Well, it's clear who the winner is, its also clear who the sore loser is ........ poor sportsman ship @MasterJohn:, poor indeed.....

Esquire FTW

You must not have anything better but to insult me.

aw boo hoo, calling you a sore loser isn't an insult, but your're just that sensitive I guess, so I'll ease up a little lol

#29 Posted by Killemall (18536 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: Sorry i dont think i would wanna take part in a CAV anytime soon, because i am rather occupied with reading Dr. Strange chronology as i intend to make a thread, as most people seem to just overhype Dr. Strange for whatever reason. Would love to have a CAV with you once i finish reading hopefully in about 2 weeks times. Also i am more of a Marvel person, have read marvel comics a lot more than DC, so yeah i think i'll be picking a marvel character for that debate when we have one :)

I used to have quite a substantive collection of Zatanna's feat before i laptop crashed, now its significantly smaller collection. Among which i have left here are few for you to see.

Zatanna Volume 2, Issue 01: Ice tomb, she can freeze people magically.

Zatanna Volume 2 Issue 03: Can make people renounce their soul, would that work on Scarab? meh not sure

Reign in Hell 06: Zatanna vs Lobo, she blocks her attack with magic, make him bleed with a spell, skins him, makes it such that everytime he attacks her he feel the pain and not her but eventually decides to leave Lobo there and leave.

JLA Volume 3 Issue 119: You question her ability to use POTS to freeze someone in time, here she does exactly that to Despero, i would certainly be surprised if Despero was dead stopped because he feared Zatanna or her voice :p, looks unlikely.

Among other minor feats i could try and put it, and assuming she doesnt get KOed by Scarab before she gets a chance to do anything, as her durability isnt as impressive as one would like, she has transmutation powers which is going to be very hard to counter. I certainly dont remember seeing Blue Beetle ever resisting transmutation.

Zatanna Volume 2, Issue 07: Some random transmutation

Zatanna Volume 2, Issue 06: Turned people into gold, not sure if Scarab has any answer to being turned into a giant statue of gold.

Zatanna Volume 2, Issue 04: Turned people into dove.

Zatanna Volume 2 , Issue 01: Turned people into rabbits

Zatanna Volume 2, Issue 04: Turns weapons into flowers

Zatanna Volume 2, Issue 15: Turns bullets into paper

the reason i posted multiple counts of transmutation was to show that its rather in character for Zatanna to actually use transmutation, and if you notice all these transmutation was done in volume 2, within a span of 15 comics :)

Justice League volume 1, 251 would go so far to explain that the way she achieves her magic is via altering reality.

So conclusion from where i see it, it can go either way. Most of Blue Beetles attack should be potent enough to outright KO her, she certainly lacks durability, not is she fast enough to actually contend with a seriously fighting Blue Beetle. That being said, she does have things in her arsenal to end the fight in one go like freezing him, making in stuck in ice tomb, or simply trans-mutating his armor to something less dangerous like rabbit.

#30 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Esquire: Sorry i dont think i would wanna take part in a CAV anytime soon, because i am rather occupied with reading Dr. Strange chronology as i intend to make a thread, as most people seem to just overhype Dr. Strange for whatever reason. Would love to have a CAV with you once i finish reading hopefully in about 2 weeks times. Also i am more of a Marvel person, have read marvel comics a lot more than DC, so yeah i think i'll be picking a marvel character for that debate when we have one :)

I used to have quite a substantive collection of Zatanna's feat before i laptop crashed, now its significantly smaller collection. Among which i have left here are few for you to see.

Zatanna Volume 2, Issue 01: Ice tomb, she can freeze people magically.

Zatanna Volume 2 Issue 03: Can make people renounce their soul, would that work on Scarab? meh not sure

Reign in Hell 06: Zatanna vs Lobo, she blocks her attack with magic, make him bleed with a spell, skins him, makes it such that everytime he attacks her he feel the pain and not her but eventually decides to leave Lobo there and leave.

JLA Volume 3 Issue 119: You question her ability to use POTS to freeze someone in time, here she does exactly that to Despero, i would certainly be surprised if Despero was dead stopped because he feared Zatanna or her voice :p, looks unlikely.

Among other minor feats i could try and put it, and assuming she doesnt get KOed by Scarab before she gets a chance to do anything, as her durability isnt as impressive as one would like, she has transmutation powers which is going to be very hard to counter. I certainly dont remember seeing Blue Beetle ever resisting transmutation.

Zatanna Volume 2, Issue 07: Some random transmutation

Zatanna Volume 2, Issue 06: Turned people into gold, not sure if Scarab has any answer to being turned into a giant statue of gold.

Zatanna Volume 2, Issue 04: Turned people into dove.

Zatanna Volume 2 , Issue 01: Turned people into rabbits

Zatanna Volume 2, Issue 04: Turns weapons into flowers

Zatanna Volume 2, Issue 15: Turns bullets into paper

the reason i posted multiple counts of transmutation was to show that its rather in character for Zatanna to actually use transmutation, and if you notice all these transmutation was done in volume 2, within a span of 15 comics :)

Justice League volume 1, 251 would go so far to explain that the way she achieves her magic is via altering reality.

So conclusion from where i see it, it can go either way. Most of Blue Beetles attack should be potent enough to outright KO her, she certainly lacks durability, not is she fast enough to actually contend with a seriously fighting Blue Beetle. That being said, she does have things in her arsenal to end the fight in one go like freezing him, making in stuck in ice tomb, or simply trans-mutating his armor to something less dangerous like rabbit.

You are such a better debater than me and came in more prepared then me.

#31 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ancient_0f_Days: I appreciate your vote of confidence, but no need to be unpleasant to anyone. Thanks for your time.

Wow, color me impressed. I'm especially surprised by her turning bullets into paper. The only encounter with bullets I'd seen was when Joker shot her. That's a pretty impressive reaction feat. Thanks for your time, and for the scans. Lots of impressive stuff in there.

#32 Posted by Killemall (18536 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: No problem , glad to help.

#33 Posted by Killemall (18536 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn: Thank you :)

#34 Posted by laflux (15316 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: FTW. MasterJohn did good tho.

BTW fancy doing a debate sometime?

#35 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

If you're still interested in debating this (and feel free to use some of the scans Killemall posted if you want, or you can just tell me the comics the feats are from), then here's a post about why I think Blue Beetle has a good chance here.

Jaime Reyes, as a teenage human superhero, has little tolerance for killing. Although he has access to weapons on the level of a tactical nuke or even above, he almost always opts for non-lethal solutions in-character. When times get especially desperate, he's shown to use weapons that may result in his opponent's death, such as the neural scramblers shown here:

Zatanna, although so powerful as to border on a reality warper, is somewhat hamstrung by her battles with low self-confidence and her reluctance to use her powers to kill people. Although she does resort to using extremely powerful magic, especially against powerful opponents, she rarely opens with it. The only two times I've seen her use the 'pots' spell were against Despero and Felix Faust. Despero had already spent most of the story arc kicking around the entire JLA and had taken over the minds of some of them. Zatanna was forced to stop Despero's mind control or else the Leaguers would have killed each other. So it was hardly normal circumstances. And against Faust, she didn't use her 'pots' spell until the magician had already spent several panels kicking Superman to the curb. She again had to use it to save her friend's life. Since Blue Beetle is neither as big a threat as Faust and Despero nor threatening her friends, she probably won't use her most powerful attacks at the beginning of the fight.

So if both combatants are holding back and not fighting their best, how do we know which character will resort to measures strong enough to win? First of all, Zatanna has pretty much normal human durability. So even Jaime's non-lethal attacks should have a good chance at KOing her. He can use sonics, drones, or non-lethal blasts, all of which have been capable of KOing people in the past.

But Blue Beetle also has one advantage when it comes to holding back. When faced with a powerful enough opponent, the Scarab is able to override Jaime's control and activate all necessary countermeasures. It did this when Jaime went up against 3 Lanterns. Although the fight ended without a winner when a bounty hunter took a cheap shot at Kyle, the Scarab was able to use countermeasures tailored to its opponents, such as cryo-blasters against Bleez, even without Jaime's consent.

Jaime has lots of abilities that can give Zatanna trouble, and even if he manages to keep the Scarab to non-lethal measures, he has power enough to spare while still not killing her. Zatanna is, however, an extremely powerful character, so I look forward to you showing ways that she can defeat Jaime and his armor.

#36 Posted by Needlebay (1935 posts) - - Show Bio

Zatanna.

#37 Posted by YoungJustice (6788 posts) - - Show Bio

Esquire, you are a very..very patient man. I respect that.

#38 Posted by Duct4pe (18 posts) - - Show Bio

Esquire FTW but it was a very good debate on both sides.

#39 Posted by The_Lunact_And_Manic (3286 posts) - - Show Bio

You did well Esquire, but, I still think Zatanna would win :P

#40 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice said:

Esquire, you are a very..very patient man. I respect that.

Thanks man. I appreciate it.

@Needlebay said:

Zatanna.

@The_Lunact_And_Manic said:

You did well Esquire, but, I still think Zatanna would win :P

It's so on, lol. Let's hear some reasons. I've still got some Blue Beetle feats in my corner I've been saving for a rainy day. How does Zatanna get past her in-character reluctance to use lethal spells? Jaime gets past his reluctance because the Scarab would take over if he was facing a threat of Zatanna's caliber.

#41 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't forget this debate isn't over, I am still prepping for you.

#42 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn: Psh, I'll take you all on. No quarter shall be given, it will be a last stand for the ages! Lol, but seriously, I don't mind fielding their points if they have something to contribute, as long as it's okay with you. I figure the more that I can learn about Zatanna and the more people I can educate about Blue Beetle, the better.

#43 Posted by Killemall (18536 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: Mate, i like your swag :p

#44 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Esquire: Mate, i like your swag :p

Lol, thanks! (I think.)

#45 Edited by Dextersinister (5978 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: Zatanna is more than powerful than BB but as you pointed out would almost certainly lose to his speed as she is effectively a class canon.

@MasterJohn: Saying "you win, you happy? at the end of a debate is most certainly childish

#46 Posted by The_Lunact_And_Manic (3286 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: Well, she refused to kill a guy that almost killed her when she was a child, and she also didn't kill Lobo, so, it's save to say that she'll never use a lethal spell with morals on. ( She never said "Eid", by the way. )

#47 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Lunact_And_Manic: That's always been my impression of her. And several of the stories I've read with her in them, like Identity Crisis and Seven Soldiers, have portrayed her as lacking confidence because of how easily her powers can go awry. I think she could beat Blue Beetle if they were both fighting to the best of their abilities, and even in-character she can pull out some wins. But from my limited Zatanna experience, I think Jaime is capable of taking the majority if they're both in-character.

#48 Posted by The_Lunact_And_Manic (3286 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: Agreed.

Her morals and lack of confidence can screw everything up sometimes...

#49 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Lunact_And_Manic: It's kind of a common theme with characters like hers, who really have no limits. For the most part, they're either terrified of their power and lack the confidence to use it, or are totally insane. Not a whole lot of stable well-adjusted high-tier reality warper types.

#50 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn: You still want to finish this?