I just want to know what everyone else thinks of this.
Yoda, Mace Windu and Obi Wan Kenobi all for revenge of the sith vs Sidious and Vader from rotj and maul from phantom menace .
Who do you think will win ?
Yoda,Mace and Obi wan vs Sidious, Vader (rotj) and Maul
I'm assuming your talking about the movie versions (for future reference, insert pictures of the versions you are talking about).
If these are in fact the movie versions, the Jedi stomp.
Sidious from Ep. 6 was amazingly weak. Not even 30 minutes of shock time could kill Luke or even knock Luke out cold. A taser could be more effective. Vader was cool and I kind of liked his style but he wasn't as nearly good as any of those 3 Jedi. Luke hit him in the shoulder when he was still a noob/unexperienced Jedi. As for Maul, he isn't on their level of skill either. But he's probably the best out of the Sith in that team. He may have killed Qui-Gon but Obi-Wan in Ep. 3 was Obi-Wan in his prime. And Obi-Wan in his prime freaking beat General Grievous who could swing his lightsabers as if they were helicopter blades. Plus movie Darth Maul has extremely bad reaction time for a highly trained Sith.
If these were the Expanded Universe (EU) versions than Palpitine would solo.
Also welcome to the Vine. :)
Ugh. A match-up with the same redundant SW characters, on a forum I hardly even post on anymore, in an undefined setup. I should just let this go....
If this is RotJ Palpatine, then no one on Team 1 can defeat him. As he can survive purely as a spirit, the best they could hope for is a stalemate by killing his physical vessel, leaving his spirit disembodied (unless physical death counts as a victory, in which case, the OP needs to clarify this). The only means by which they could eliminate his Essence would be overwhelming it with manifestations of pure light or by banishing it to Chaos (or both, as Brand did). Beldorian described to Leia that Yoda was adept at Force Light; however, his application of it was minimal, as Beldorian went on to explain that Yoda could only produce a glow from pins and the like, which should not be sufficient to incapacitate Palpatine's spirit. Empatojayos Brand generated a significant amount of Light, and even then, he stated that he was being eaten from the inside by Palpatine's Essence. Neither Mace nor Obi-Wan have ever demonstrated a power such as Force Light to accomplish a similar effect; so that tactic is unusable here. As for casting his spirit into Chaos, none of them have demonstrated this capability, and even collectively, I have to call into question whether they have the knowledge to or not. Jedi during the RotE era had forgotten techniques that allowed Force sensitives to cheat death by transcending their physical form and continuing their existence as a spirit (mainly due to their restrictive ideologies pertaining to love and attachment), and if they were without sufficient knowledge to even attain eternal life on their own, I doubt they would know of a countermeasure for a Sith cheating death with an inferior method, such as Essence Transfer. As well, given that Sidious has repeatedly shown the ability to control other people's spirits besides his own (as in Sithisis, when he drew out multiple Sith spirits during a ritual, and in Darksaber, when he moved Bevel Lemelisk's spirit into new bodies), he should be more defended from someone else attempting the same spiritual control on him. All in all, they just have no way to beat Sidious permanently, and this assumes they can even killed him physically.
On the other hand, Palpatine possessed Jeng Droga, one of his Hands, to return to Byss. Droga was overwhelmed by the sheer amount of darkness and power that resonated from Palpatine's spirit upon the possession. If that was the case with him, I have no reason to believe it would be any different with Obi-Wan or Mace. Yoda may be a different case and a very subjective and complicated one; so I'll just let that go. Kenobi and Windu though should be susceptible to a similar influence.
On the fight itself, Sidious is the most powerful character here, followed by Yoda, and then Vader. Honestly, had Vader fought competently on Mustafar, he would have won. This has been noted in several sources, and on their duel aboard the Death Star, in the ANH novel and comic, Obi-Wan said that his skills had increased since they last met. Yet the two were equal for the duration of their duel. Vader's dueling feats are simply better, such as: beating Celeste Morne without much effort, defeating the Dark Woman, easily beating Roan Shryne, easily beating Sardoth, effortlessly cutting down the six/seven Jedi who accompanied Olee Starstone, beating Bol Chatak while still inexperienced in his new armor, killing Sha Koon, and so on. Vader's form is a combination of Djem So with added motions of multiple other styles. And honestly, Vader's movement speed is highly underrated. People tend to think he can barely walk, even though he regularly moves like this.
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As for combat speed, Vader fights Jedi on a regular basis, all of whom have superhuman fighting speed, and he has also fought characters such as Rebellion era Luke, Obi-Wan, and Darth Maul, all of whom are very fast. Obi-Wan is just outclassed. Vader's Deflection is better, his telepathic abilities are better (Vader can twist other people's thoughts, implant fear in other minds, probe other minds, etc.), his telekinetic powers are outclassed, and his skills are outclassed. Vader has a number of telekinetic feats which place him on a tier well above Obi-Wan or Mace, such as the following respectively: collapsing a structure, hurling away creatures all around him, knocking over huge trees, hurling people across entire alleyways, using Lightsaber Throw to kill soldiers all around him, throwing V-Wings, destroying buildings, etc. etc.
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In a contest of the Force, Vader could beat Mace or Obi-Wan. Only Yoda could outclass him in that area, and in a duel, he can edge out Obi-Wan.
Regarding a duel between the others, this is harder to say. Obi-Wan may well beat Maul as he progressed considerably in the time since Maul defeated him. His Soresu had been refined to the extent that he has literally deflected blaster bolts fired from entire armies at once. Maul is a Juyo practitioner, which renders him more offensive. Whether he could penetrate Obi-Wan's defenses may be more difficult to say, but I would grant Obi-Wan a larger majority of him than not, especially since Obi-Wan's Force skills are also greater (such as being able to use Force Deflection to block Force blasts and telekientically move a Jedi starfighter).
If it came down to Yoda vs Palpatine again, Sidious would win as he did before. Two sources have stated outright that Yoda is incapable of winning against Palpatine. The general consensus seems to be that the environment (the Senate Arena) favored Sidious, when I have seen nothing to substantiate this. Delegation pods are a neutral advantage; either one could employ them as an attack, thusly removing the possibility that they could play to Palpatine's strengths rather than Yoda's (especially since Yoda has more impressive telekinetic feats than Palpatine anyway). If anything, fighting in the Senate Arena, particularly on the Chancellor's podium, hindered Sidious because it restricted his mobility. While Yoda was simply able to leap and flip around in his Ataru attack form as he always does, Sidious stood virtually stationary on the podium itself while Yoda jumped around him. This would require greater speed on Palpatine's part to compensate, and it also prevents use of his full Force Speed. As we have seen in Sidious' duel with Mace and both his duels with Luke, Palpatine prefers utilizing his movement speed to the max extent, running toward and around his opponents while he slashes at them. But he could never do this in a senate pod or on the Chancellor's podium, and as the movie showed, Palpatine stood still in the podium while Yoda performed his usual acrobatics. In an even battle ground where Palpatine can move more freely, he should have a speed advantage over Yoda. This is further cemented by the fact that Yoda has been combated by Dooku on more than one occasion. Now, we know that Sidious can move his lightsaber too fast for Anakin to even see (in fact, all Anakin could see was the blurring and residual motions of his lightsaber, not the actual strokes themselves), and we know that Dooku is around Anakin's speed level (whether he is greater or lesser depends on Anakin's emotional state and mindset; in the RotS novel, when he tapped into the dark side, he moved his lightsaber so fast that Tyranus' entire line of sight was covered in blue light). Now, if the AotC comic and novel are to be trusted, Yoda is faster than Dooku but not to such an extent that Dooku is incapable of fighting him. However, despite the fact that Force sensitives don't have to be perfectly equal with one another in speed in order to fight because of their various Force senses compensating for the speed gap, if Yoda were really so much faster than Dooku that the latter can never see the blows of Yoda's blade, then Yoda would have stomped him. Based on consistent displays, Palpatine is faster, just not so much faster that Yoda can never challenge him. All in all, in an area where Sidious can use his Force Speed in the manner he usually does, he should have an edge over Yoda in speed, and the two were roughly equal in lightsaber skill.
Quotes stating that Yoda cannot beat Palpatine.
--Taken from The New Essential ChronologyYoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
--Taken from Revenge of the SithIn that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force. Finally, he saw the truth.
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...
just—
didn't—
have it.
This also fails to address what I said earlier about Palpatine's spirit. Even if Yoda could beat him, he could still never really beat him. So the duel is largely irrelevant anyway. Yoda could, at the very best, stalemate him. And we should also consider canonicity. In Lucas' vision, powers such as Force Drain are nonexistent. However, in the EU, shortly after the fall of the Republic, Palpatine began populating and feeding on the life energies of Byss, which eventually grew to a population of nearly twenty billion. In Lucas' setting, Sidious would never manifest this power in a fight, but if the movies+EU continuity is being counted, Sidious could well do so here. The only point that potentially detracts from that is the fact that we have never seen Palpatine use Drain in a fight before. However, if he did, he could very well solo Team 1. We know for a fact that Obi-Wan knows no defense for life draining effects, as he was helpless to fight against the Dark Reaper. Mace Windu, similarly, should have no such knowledge as the Jedi of their time had no teachings to give Anakin about resisting Drain. Anakin had to learn from a hologram/spirit of Ulic Qel-Droma. By extension, Yoda should be susceptible as well.
As for Mace, let's establish this here and now: Whether you believe Mace definitively beat Palpatine or not is irrelevant. We know for a fact that Mace is not a better duelist than Sidious is, as the two reached a perfect impasse in their duel based on pure skill, and we know that Mace was radically amped during that duel, granting him greater speed and power for that one occasion. To put that into context: Vaapad is an off-shoot of Juyo that allows the user to channel darkness in order to harness it without becoming enslaved to it. The potency of this is decreased or magnified by the amount of darker emotions present in the user. When Mace discovered that Palpatine was a Sith, his attachment to the Republic shattered, and because of that, there was a colossal increase in the darkness within Mace. That coupled with Palpatine's darkness and Anakin's power allowed Mace to augment his abilities for that one fight. He reached a fighting state he had never managed before, and we know that Vaapad does not normally amp the user as it did there. If it did, Mace would never have lost to Kar Vastor or lost to Dooku or only stalemated General Grievous or only fought evenly with Sora Bulq. In every other instance, Vaapad had limitations based on what the darkness within Mace was usually. However, in RotS, the darkness in Mace was drastically increased, giving him a temporary power amp.
Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.
Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.
Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.
--Taken from Revenge of the SithVaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.
So one way or another, whether Mace truly beat Palpatine or not, it was a circumstantial showing that does not validate the idea that he could beat Sidious in a standard, random encounter. His speed was amped, and even then, he only reached an impasse with Sidious. In a standard, random encounter, Mace would be blitzed by Palpatine as Saesee and Agen were, seeing as he is only roughly as fast as they are under normal circumstances. As well, Palpatine could have defeated Mace anytime he wanted with Lightning. Vaapad or no Vaapad, Mace himself noted that Sidious' Lightning output would have beaten him. Palpatine projected so much Lightning that Mace's lightsaber was bending back toward his face.
Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.
Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"
--Taken from Revenge of the SithThis was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.
As for Maul, Yoda could casually beat him. Mace, harder to say. Most people would say Mace would win but never give a real reason why. Maul has beaten Qui-Gon who could fight evenly with Mace. Not to use A>B>C logic, but Maul was very skilled. It would not be as easy as people exaggerate for Mace to defeat Maul.
All things considered, Team 2 has this, just about every time. At the very most, a stalemate could be argued for because of Palpatine's Transfer Essence.
@JediXMan said:
I'm not doing this anymore. I'm done. I will say this, and nothing more. I'm right, I know it, and many others know it, too. I can't be bothered arguing this. Palpatine > Mace. Goodbye.
It warms my heart to know Star Wars is discussed here occasionally. :) And as much as I love Obi-Wan, I have to say he and the Jedi lose this one.
I believe ROTJ Sidious could solo Mace and Obi-Wan. I know people believe ROTJ Sidious is weak because his Force Lightning didn't do much damage to Luke in comparison to other showings of Force Lighting, but I always though Sidious was torturing Luke and so was restraining himself. I think Sidious only tried to kill Luke shortly before Anakin reemerged because his facial expressions gave the look of exertion. All the moments before that made Sidious look as if he were hardly putting anything behind his attacks.
Yoda could solo Maul and Vader. So it would come down to Yoda against Sidious, and I believe Sidious would win just as he did in ROTS.
@JediXMan said:
Palpatine > Mace. Goodbye.
If we're talking about ROTS versions of both, how can people believe Mace is better? I'm not a fan of the prequels but they made it fairly obvious that even after expending the energy he used to kill Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto, Palpatine was still holding back against Mace until Anakin converted to the Dark Side ("I'm too weak, help me Anakin. *a moment later* UNLIMITED POWER!!!"). Now if someone believes ROTJ Sidious is weaker than ROTS Sidious and they are matching those two up, sure, I suppose an argument could be made.
I verified your point with my post. So no need. All taken care of, man.I'm not doing this anymore. I'm done. I will say this, and nothing more. I'm right, I know it, and many others know it, too. I can't be bothered arguing this. Palpatine > Mace. Goodbye.
@Fetts said:
I'm assuming your talking about the movie versions (for future reference, insert pictures of the versions you are talking about). If these are in fact the movie versions, the Jedi stomp. Sidious from Ep. 6 was amazingly weak. Not even 30 minutes of shock time could kill Luke or even knock Luke out cold. A taser could be more effective. Vader was cool and I kind of liked his style but he wasn't as nearly good as any of those 3 Jedi. Luke hit him in the shoulder when he was still a noob/unexperienced Jedi. As for Maul, he isn't on their level of skill either. But he's probably the best out of the Sith in that team. He may have killed Qui-Gon but Obi-Wan in Ep. 3 was Obi-Wan in his prime. And Obi-Wan in his prime freaking beat General Grievous who could swing his lightsabers as if they were helicopter blades. Plus movie Darth Maul has extremely bad reaction time for a highly trained Sith. If these were the Expanded Universe (EU) versions than Palpitine would solo. Also welcome to the Vine. :)
..................This^
@JediXMan said:True. I just made my post before yours :PI'm not doing this anymore. I'm done. I will say this, and nothing more. I'm right, I know it, and many others know it, too. I can't be bothered arguing this. Palpatine > Mace. Goodbye.I verified your point with my post. So need. All taken care of, man.
But I think your wall of text will scare most people off. NOTE to anyone reading this: If you are going to argue with him, you must read EVERY. SINGLE. WORD. No skimming.
PS: I should be ready to do that Bane thread soon. I know, I know. I've just been busy and haven't been able to dedicate my time to a long debate. I'm still not, but we'll see.
PS: I should be ready to do that Bane thread soon. I know, I know. I've just been busy and haven't been able to dedicate my time to a long debate. I'm still not, but we'll see.All good.
@Silver2467: I'm pretty sure these are movie versions. I'm just assuming that's what he means when he says "(rotj)" or "revenge of the sith" or "phantom menace". If these are movie versions then I personally say Team Jedi. But if they're not then ya your right.Not really convinced of that. People have a tendency to remove the EU from the movies more than they should, when in fact the movies are part of the EU. There are two universes: Lucas' vision, which is the movies, and the Expanded Universe, which is the movies plus everything else.
(Even though I hardly read it because you like to make ridiculously long posts that almost nobody reads fully............I just know you well enough to know that your always right when it comes to Star Wars -_-)I never claimed infallibility.
@Fetts said:Some clarification would of been nice...But either way, I still say movie versions: Jedi stomp, EU: Sith spite.@Silver2467: I'm pretty sure these are movie versions. I'm just assuming that's what he means when he says "(rotj)" or "revenge of the sith" or "phantom menace". If these are movie versions then I personally say Team Jedi. But if they're not then ya your right.Not really convinced of that. People have a tendency to remove the EU from the movies more than they should, when in fact the movies are part of the EU. There are two universes: Lucas' vision, which is the movies, and the Expanded Universe, which is the movies plus everything else.
Ha. You didn't have to claim it. :)(Even though I hardly read it because you like to make ridiculously long posts that almost nobody reads fully............I just know you well enough to know that your always right when it comes to Star Wars -_-)I never claimed infallibility.
Some clarification would of been nice...But either way, I still say movie versions: Jedi stomp, EU: Sith spite.To be honest, the OP needs to be updated with more information than simply whether this G-Canon or EU continuity. It would also help to know the battle setting, the starting distance, whether standard character morals/mindsets apply, and so on.
But fair enough.
Ha. You didn't have to claim it. :)Eh. I have been wrong on Star Wars related discussions before. No reason to assume it would never happen again.
@Fetts said:This is true.Some clarification would of been nice...But either way, I still say movie versions: Jedi stomp, EU: Sith spite.To be honest, the OP needs to be updated with more information than simply whether this G-Canon or EU continuity. It would also help to know the battle setting, the starting distance, whether standard character morals/mindsets apply, and so on.
But fair enough.
@Silver2467 said:
Ha. Its ok. You still have my respect. :)
Ha. You didn't have to claim it. :)Eh. I have been wrong on Star Wars related discussions before. No reason to assume it would never happen again.
@Silver2467: Personally I thought that was awesome. I like reading long posts as long as they're well written, and especially if they're about something I don't know much about and want to learn more about.
I think the OP is trying to say that Yoda, Windu, and Kenobi are all as seen in ROTS, Sidious and Vader as in ROTJ, and Maul as in PM. So movie world exclusively. Personally I tend to think that if you are going just from the movies, Sidious is not shown to be as powerful in ROTJ as he is in ROTS. So if you saw ROTJ without seeing ROTS (as many people in my generation did), then Sidious is somewhat weaker. This is still possibly the (incorrect) point of view of some of us: we can think of them as exclusive sets of movies. In that sense, Sidious' powers in ROTJ are only the feats he shows in that movie, and nothing else. But really, as long as you see them in chronological order, then no matter what, ROTJ Sidious still has all the history of the ROTS Sidious, and we can see his powers in a greater context--he is ROTS Sidious plus ROTJ Sidious. The same is true about Vader--he's more powerful in ROTJ if you look at him in the context of ROTS.
I could see Yoda winning against a purely ROTJ Sidious, and ROTS Kenobi beating Maul. I think ROTS Windu and a purely ROTJ Vader might be a stalemate, maybe Windu wins, but in any case once Yoda and Kenobi come to his side, the Jedi win. Or even if we switch the last partners, and Windu beats Maul and a purely ROTJ Vader beats Kenobi, then Mace and Yoda will beat Vader.
But if we more correctly take ROTJ Sidious to be ROTS plus ROTJ (i.e. all the feats from both movies count), then I see him beating ROTS Yoda and the overall battle changes. Sidious cleans up whatever Jedi are remaining from the other fights.
1. Palpatine is the one that told Anakin to alert the Jedi (or at least pushed him into it)
2. Palpatine telepathically taunted Anakin into coming to his "rescue."
3. Now I respect Mace Windu's ability and I credit him with being a good duelist. But come on. Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar, and Kit Fisto fell within seconds. Mace is above them, yes, but they're also legendary Masters in their own right.
4. Palpatine rarely utilized Force powers in the entire duel until the end, when Anakin was there.
5. Anakin arrived at the exact moment when Palpatine was "losing."
6. People keep saying that Mace did scar Palpatine because his use of vaapad redirected Palpatine's lightnight back on him. However, explain why this scarred face is identical to his dark side withered face that occurred when his clone bodies couldn't hold his power. It's likely he used Force concealment - or a variation thereof - to hide his true face.
7. In one of the Star Wars insiders (you'll have to take my word for it right now, since I can't find the issue), it calls Mace Windu the second best lightsaber duelist on the Council, the best being Yoda. Palpatine beat Yoda in the lightsaber portion of their duel.
I actually do think Obi-Wan could beat ROTJ Sidious. Like I said his lightning was weaker than a taser. He was electrocuting Luke for about 30 seconds and that didn't kill him, knock him out, or even physically weaken him. It only gave him extreme pain while he was using Force Lightning. But mind you Luke threw away his lightsaber. Had he not he could of possibly deflected the lightning and maybe even kill him. ROTJ (movie) Palpitine is weaker than ROTS (movie) Palpitine.
Mace Windu is actually one of my favorite Star Wars characters too. I remember reading something (somewhere over the rainbow) about how Mace Windu could of survived. Luke was shocked for a longer period of time than Mace Windu and there are billions of speeders going by that he could of landed on. Then again Movie ROTJ Sidious is weaker than ROTS Sidious. But it in the EU, Palpitine was equally, if not more powerful as he was older. So in the EU, if Luke was shocked by Palpitine for a longer period of time and survived, Mace could of survived too. But that's only logically. At least my logic. Its possible I could be wrong. There is no evidence Mace Windu survived. But who knows. Maybe one day somebody will write a comic book telling how he survived.
Ah. Thank you for posting that list; I haven't been able to find it and I was too lazy to type it up again.
For the lightning thing, however, Palpatine was trying to torture Luke, not kill him. His lightning was powerful enough to knock Yoda to the ground at one point.
If Mace starts off fighting Maul he would finish him rather quickly. Obi-Wan and Yoda can hold off their opponents still Mace comes in.
I see the Jedi winning this because Yoda and Mace can handle Vader and Maul rather easily while on the other team on Palpetine can handle Obi-Wan rather easily but Obi-Wan can hold his own against Vader and Maul by himself.
@JediXMan: No problem. Wait but didn't he said "And now young Jedi, you will die."? Unless of course by torture you meant give Luke a slow and painful death.Exactly. He was going to die, but Palpatine was going to give him a very slow and painful death. So of course it wasn't going to kill him right away. But the fact that it immobilized Luke is still a decent feat.
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