Yoda vs Emperor Vitiate

Yoda

Emperor Vitiate

Settings

• Legends and New Canon, with Legends taking priority.
• Speed is equalized, and no lightsaber or unarmed combat.
• No prior knowledge.
• In character, morals on.
• Fight to the death, knockout or incapacitation.

Location - Petranaki Arena (always a classic).

Bonus round- Vitiate as of Shadow of Revan.

@dccomicsrule2011@shootingnova@silentbat

..../blinks at ILS.

...why is that? I actually see Vitiate winning this.

@dccomicsrule2011: Cause don't Yoda have some varied powers in dealing with darkside forces? I'm not recalling much for Vitiate in terms of combat powers other than TK and Force Lighting. Although I haven't really been following Vitiate so.../shrug

..../blinks at wolfrazer

@dccomicsrule2011: IIRC, the consensus is that the vast majority of Vitiate's feats are with prep. I don't see him winning at all.

Yeah. but Vitiate has multiple impressive feats that don't include prep. It's also worth noting that Vitiate was the most powerful Sith Lord up into his time.

@dccomicsrule2011: Yoda was the most powerful Jedi up to his time and was winning/stalemating Sidious (the most powerful up to his time and ever) for quite some time. I don't see how Vitiate is going to overpower Yoda, with the force, without prep, when Sidious couldn't, unless you consider the lightning ordeal Sidious overpowering Yoda, but, even if that were true, Vitiate's is not that powerful.

I don't think Vitiate Sith Lightning is far from Sidious to be honest.

Vitiate's feat with no prep:

Vitiate has had a number of other impressive feats/accolades that required zero prep at all.

- He has collapsed an entire temple with TK.

- Defeated Revan with Sith Lightning.

-Has caused Scooge to have seizure like symptoms by being in his presence.

-He was stated to be much more powerful then Nyriss, who defeated Meetra and Scrooge

-Was stated to be the most powerful Sith Lord up until his time.

I'm not really seeing Yoda taking a very strong majority with the stipulation the OP set.

@dccomicsrule2011: I agree this is debatable- as I said in the PM, but I will go with Yoda because I think his edge in Force Power TK eclipses the edge that The Sith Emperor has in mental powers. I think that Yoda can hold him off long enough to beat him with Telekinesis. As for Sith Lightning, well Yoda was able to absorb Lightning from ROTS Sidious who's Lightning should be more powerful anyways.

I doubt Vitiate could actually win a majority, though. He could win a few rounds.

Yoda can repel Vitiate's TK or Lightning, and Vitiate can't win via TP unless he has prep, but considering that Yoda resisted Sidious and Dooku's ritual, I severely doubt Vitiate would have any more success. Yoda should win via superior TK.

Yoda will win the majority, if not all of them. Nothing stated gives the impression that Vitiate would be able to defeat Yoda through the use of force.

Edit: I'd also like to note that the Dark Temple was a Dark Force Nexus, so it is possible that he was amped when he destroyed the temple.

@imboredletsdebate: Yoda was never defeating Palpatine.

Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Source: The New Essential Chronology

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Although Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end the Sith bested him. He realized that continuing to directly confront Palpatine would mean failure. Defeated, Yoda slunk away into the shadow's of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Vitiate only has a few feats that don't require prep and don't require multiple other Force users helping him, or don't occur on a Dark Side nexus. In fact, the only feats he has shown without prep or being on a DS nexus would be the Lightning Storm he unleashed on the Jedi Strike Team, and then Mind Controlling them after they were KOed.

I think he was winning in the Lightsaber duel, but I could be wrong. Either way, he was still stalemating him at the least, and that is enough to fight Vitiate

@imboredletsdebate: He stalemated Palpatine in the lightsaber duel as per the film (seemingly) and the novel. The junior novel, and the graphic novel as well (I believe) do depict him as disarming Palpatine, based off the older script for RotS that was later discarded. He lost the Force-based fight, based on all sources.

@imboredletsdebate:

1) I'm not really seeing the big Difference in TK. Vitiate was half-way dead when he collapsed that Temple, that feat atleast rivals the feats you listed for Yoda.

2) As I've said before, I'm not seeing a big difference in Sidious Lightning, if there is one at all in fact. Revan was able to absorb/reflect Nyriss Lightning while he was drugged, and the latters lightning was able to tear through he Force dflection and turn her into ash. When Revan tried that same trick against Vitiate, he was burned to a crisp. On top of that, when did I claim Lightning would be his key to victory?

3) Strawman much? When did I ever say he was near Yoda? Considering Vitiate didn't even TRY to affect Scrooge or whatever his name is in the first place, that is an impressive feat.

4) Nonsense. Speaking out if ignorance doesn't help you self dude. The novel clearly stated Vitiate was much more powerful then Nyriss, when Revan was overwhelmed by Vitiate Lightning. And Nyriss is not featless, and no she didn't defeat them with her lightsaber. Nyriss was canotically stated to be one of the strongest Sith Lords of her time and on the Dark council. Quite frankly, her feats cleary show that--she has stomped Scrooge and Meetra, and powering through Force sensitives sheilds with Lightning and turning beings into ash.

5) Yoda never beat Sidious, neither did he stalemate him. Several canon sources have outright stated Sidious defeated Yoda.

All in all, I agree, Yoda may win, but I doubt he would do so everytime as they are close in many regards.

1. Yoda has better TK feats than the listed ones ie. TKing Palpatine, manipulating a pair of several hundred meter vessels at once. There shouldn't be a large disparity, but there should be one nonetheless.

2. Palpatine's Lightning has obliterated miniature armies and turned Sithspawn into ash, Dark Side prophets into skeletons, etc - presumably, he did advance in power following RotS, but he is still more powerful, because Vitiate's feat was accomplished on a potent dark side nexus, whereas Palpatine impacting a lightsaber with Lightning hard enough to knock it out of Yoda's hands with a single blast, or bending Mace's blade were not accomplished on any dark side residues or focal points.

3. Actually, he did. That was not a passive feat. The text explicitly describes Vitiate actively brushing his mind against Scourge, which caused that chilling effect on the latter.

5. To be fair, there are sources that have also explicitly stated Yoda stalemated Palpatine/was an even match for him.

I totally had this debate in the bag :'(

Not really.

@imboredletsdebate:

1) Even if Vitiate was amped, the man was half dead for christ sake. I hardly see if taking much away from the feat.

2) Nah. I never implied anything actually, you did. I was simply naming some of Vitiate's feats. Not once did I say he would be him with Lightning.

3)...wait what? That makes no sense, like, at all. The same could be said for a vast chunk on characters in fiction.

4) ....so after I GIVE you feats you and still spout the same Nyriss is featless crap again? Come on now, you can do better then that. Case and point, Nyriss is very powerful, and Vitiate is MUCH more powerful then she.

5) Alrgiht. Then, still Lightsaber combat is irrelevent with the stipulation that the OP set, as I agree 100 percent that Yoda would beat Vitiate with lightsaber combat. With it? I'm still not 100 percent convinced.

@shootingnova

1) I know. Manipulating and destroying several 100 meter vessels is by far Yoda's most impressive TK feat in terms of raw Force power.All in all I agree that Yoda should hold an edge here.

2) I could concede to that, but the thing about Darkside nexus though, is we don't know how much someone is amped when they feed off the power.

3) Meh. You're right.

4) True. But the most recent sources realesed in late 2013 stated Yoda was no match for Sidious and was forced to flee.

@dccomicsrule2011:

1 and 3. Alright.

2. He is amped, though, to a noticeable degree. Dromuund Kaas's dark side energies were powerful enough to attract Vitiate's Sith Empire from light years away and it manifested its power in the form of lightning storms, as per the Revan novel. That said, one of TOR's codex entries contradicted the novel and stated Vitiate's rituals were the cause of the lightning storms, not the inherent dark side power on Dromuund Kaas. You have to love how much TOR contradicts itself as much as other sources in continuity.

4. Technically, part of Yoda's loss can be attributed to being lighter than Palpatine, which is why he was knocked high into the air without anything to break his fall, as described in the junior novel. The novel itself does deviate away from the film and does not depict that explosion at the climax of their fight anyway.

Note: Sidious was not at his most powerful when he fought Yoda. He did not reach this point until about 30yrs later, after he was killed and returned in a younger clone body, and where he had access to outside sources to bolster himself with. No such sources were ever noted during the PT, either movies or books. So at those points, he never had them.

At current TOR timeline, Vitiate is around 1500yrs old. He was powerful enough at the age of 4 to drive people insane and kill them with his mind. At the age of 100 he acquired his title of Darth Vitiate from Marka Ragnos, who was perhaps the only one more powerful than Vitiate at the time, and perhaps why Vitiate never tried to usurp him.

Statements along the lines of "only impressive with prep" applies to the likes of Sidious as well as the majority of his feats required decades of prep and setups for them to function and be of benefit to him. So I hardly find such comments to be relevant.

The only issue about Vitiate is that much of his abilities are implied. Three centuries earlier, 10 of the 12 Dark Council members had been called to him following the incident with Darth Nyriss, and Vitiate single-handedly killed all of them as a warning to all future Sith not to plot against him, not even caring that the remaining members never had such plans. However the abilities of these Sith are completely unknown. We only know they were on the Sith ruling body, which is equivalent to the Jedi High Council.

We know Vitiate would've defeated Reborn Revan. Revan was the most powerful Jedi of his era prior to becoming a Sith Lord and only became stronger as such, and again as the Prodigal Knight before reacquiring all of his memories and abilities as Reborn Revan.

During the Jedi Knight campaign in SWTOR, Vitiate rather effortlessly smacked down four of the Jedi High Council without really having to get up from his chair and then dropped the Jedi Protagonist with hardly more than a flicked wrist. It wasn't until Vitiate was severely weakened by multiple outside forces and factors that the Jedi Protagonist was able to beat him. And even then we're all quite well aware that he can't permanently be killed and that The Hand are just prepping him a new body to inhabit.

Shoot, I have no knowledge of Vitiate. I'll watch and learn though.

The issue with Vitiate is not that his power is only implied, but that most of it is centered on dark side nexuses, and many of them are also rituals which involved preparation and/or the aid of other Force users, and a number of his showings (ie. the purging of the Dark Council) is heavily implied to be the result of such.

Hardly any of Sidious's feats occurred on an inherent dark side nexus or required preparation. He has some feats with rituals, but many of them occur from the get-go.

Vitiate has some impressive showings of TK, TP, Sever Force and Lightning without the aforementioned factors, but those are the only ones. He obviously isn't beating Yoda via Sever Force, as his only demonstration of it was on a featless character whom was never stated or implied to particularly powerful to begin with, so the chances of him even being approachable to Yoda is nil. Vitiate has only Mind Controlled with prep, or if the enemies were already beaten. The only other instance I recall was when he turned his father insane as a child, which is good, but Yoda resisting Sidious and Dooku's ritual is easily reflective of being able to resist any of Vitiate's telepathic abilities. Vitiate knocked out a team of Jedi with Lightning, but only one of them had feats at the time, and the rest were really accolades. We might draw on the others' feats after they were possessed, but they were still not very impressive, and they were amped as they were possessed.

Vitiate's only telekinetic feat without being on a dark side nexus or having prep or help is killing his father as a child, which is good, but not a match for Yoda's powers. Yoda has greater telekinesis by a significant margin.

Hmm. I'd take Vitiate in this confrontation. Really, Yoda's best shot would be destroying Vitiate by bending back his lightning, which I'm not sure he'd be able to do if the latter unleashed a lightning storm similar to that which he used against Revan.

Even if, theoretically, Yoda is superior to Vitiate in telekinetic potency, it shouldn't be by a grandiose margin. The latter has effortlessly disintegrating T3 and collapsing a portion of the dark temple as his best feats. The latter feat, while performed on a dark nexus, was also during a time in which Vitiate was significantly weakened due to expending much of his energy in his galaxy-spanning ritual, only to fail. This should, at the very least, equalize the feat (realistically Vitiate's force reserves would still be dwindling after partaking in battle, especially one in which he was slain.) Unless Yoda is somehow going to ragdoll Vitiate, telekinesis is not the way in which he'll win.

@xsupremeskillzx: Yoda is definitely superior to Vitiate telekinetically, but probably not by much. Both of the feats you listed for Vitiate were on a Dark Side nexus, although in the latter he was severely weakened and near-death (though the latter element may not be relevant because of the nature of Vitiate's possession).

Yoda might not be powerful enough to control Vitiate with telekinesis, but Yoda has directly TKed Palpatine, a character of significantly greater power than Vitiate.

Palpatine's Lightning is at least somewhat more potent than Vitiate's. Yoda would be able to repel Vitiate's, albeit with difficulty.

He's only, "definitely," superior if you use those OP OCW feats :P

But yeah, the latter portion (him being near death) probably isn't relevant. Although he was still alive (physically) when the feat was performed (If you choose the light side option, you opt not to kill him), I'm fairly certain that he transferred out of his body prior to the feat. The portion that is indeed relevant would be that Vitiate's force reserves wouldn't be at their highest after just taking part in an, "apocalyptic," battle, one in which he ultimately lost. Another facet that needs to be taken into consideration is Vitiate's resistance to TK. An Imperial Guard merely drawing on the Emperor's power resisted a force push from Revan. The only time he's ever been affected by telekinetic attacks are when he was diverting his attention to dominating Revan's will and the latter used force in balance, (stupid, stupid power -_-) and in the dark side ending when the Hero of Tython ragdolls him, a situation in which he was at the precipice of death.

Pushing Palpatine by catching him off guard doesn't strike me as something out of Vitiate's capabilities.

in regular lightning, probably. But his gathered lightning storm? Ehh, by ROTS I'm not so certain.

But by DE He's got those ridiculous force storms 0_o

@xsupremeskillzx:

1. He is better even by TKing Palpatine only. And OCW is not OP.

2. You're referring to different Force Storms.

@xsupremeskillzx:

Considering that Palpatine's standard FL is more powerful than Vitiate's force storms, then yes, Yoda would be more than capable of handling Vitiate's storm, given that he successfully absorbed and redirected a prolonged lightning attack from Sidious.

And yes, Palpatine's lightning as of ROTS is more powerful than Vitiate's. Palpatine has scorched a giant sith worm to ash, blasted Yoda unconscious with a very short blast, overwhelmed the saber defense of Yoda with one blast, and nearly overwhelmed the saber defense of Windu, who was fully submerged in vapaad, while pretending to be weak. In contrast, it took a 20 second long force storm attack from Vitiate plus another charged attack to overwhelm the saber defenses of HoT and Braga, both of whom haven't shown anything to suggest they approach Yoda or a fully submerged-vapaad-Windu in physical strength, which is the most important aspect in containing lightning with a saber.

In terms of TK, Yoda destroying over 100 meter long landing crafts and the fact that his TK is on par with Sidious's, the sith lord who force choked and levitated Dooku from a distance of light years and who has easily subdued both Maul and Savage simultaneously via TK despite their efforts to break free, would put Yoda above Vitiate in terms of TK, considering Vitiate was unable to handle Revan that well with TK despite being on a dark side nexus. As for Vitiate bringing down a portion of the temple, the fact that he was dying wouldn't make the feat as impressive as you're making it out to be considering that he was still on a dark side nexus and the fact that a dark sider's death releases large amounts of energy from their bodies.

Yoda is indeed the more powerful force user.

Also, why do most assume Palpatine was caught off guard by Yoda's force push?

Hmm. SIDIOUS66 I assume?

Regardless, I'll respond within the next few days.

@dominis

Palpatine's regular FL isn't necessarily as potent as Vitiate's FLS's.

Even Nyriss's charged lightning storms were capable of instantaneously incinerating powerful force users (i.e. Meetra/Scourge/herself), while her regular lightning was demonstrably much less potent (only turning guards into charred husks.) yet still, her charged lightning storm was easily redirected by Revan. Meanwhile, Vitiate unleashed the same attack and utterly overwhelmed Revan's tutaminis, and at that time his lightning is stated to be, "infinitely more powerful," than Nyriss's. And yes, while you can say these feats were performed within the parameters of a dark side nexus, Vitiate's power is noted to be "ever increasing," and plus he sapped Revan's reservoir of power while the latter was imprisoned. The nexus gap should be filled in 300 years of growing more powerful.

Now in regards to his annihilation of the strike team, you're over exaggerating the difficulty of the feat, which directly contradicts canon. The SWTORE specifically notes that Vitiate defeated the jedi strike team easily.

@xsupremeskillzx:

Still, though, the nexus Vitiate was on was very powerful, so while he may have grown in power since then, you'd need to provide evidence that his FL would match that of his nexus enhanced lightning that he used against Revan. So far, his best feat with lightning was against the strike team, which was quite powerful, but I still find Palpatine's lightning as being superior, considering it took a very short blast of Palpatine's standard lightning to KO Yoda instantly. Not to mention that Palpatine has blasted Yoda's saber right out of his hands, and nearly overwhelmed Mace Windu's saber defense despite pretending to be weak in order to manipulate Anakin. Windu was stopped dead in his tracks by a lightning attack that wasn't meant to defeat him, unlike Braga and HoT who managed to momentarily push through Vitiate's storm.

As for SWTORE stating that Vitiate defeated the strike team easily, it seemed to be referring to the entire confrontation in general. Vitiate did defeat them easily, as he was untouched by them and defeated them with two powerful attacks. Now I'm not suggesting that Vitiate required an awful amount of effort to defeat them, but the fact is, he did use his most powerful version of lightning (FLS), which was 20 seconds worth of spamming, and still didn't take them out until he charged up another attack. It would be like me getting into a fight with a guy, and my first power punch was incapable of knocking the guy down, so I follow through with another power punch, which completely knocks the guy out. The fight would still be an easy victory for me overall, but that doesn't mean I didn't put a lot of power in my attacks. As for the brothers, Palpatine prolonged that duel for his own amusement and sadistic thrill. He wasn't aiming for a quick win in order to enslave them, which is why he didn't use powerful force attacks the way Vitiate did against the strike team.

All I'm saying is Palpatine's standard lightning has shown to be just as potent as Vitiate's FLS, perhaps more so considering the ease in which he can rip sabers from the hands of force users who possess immense physical strength, with single bursts. The fact that Yoda has successfully absorbed and redirected a very prolonged lightning attack from Sidious, who was putting in a great deal of effort to overpower Yoda's absorption ability, should be enough to conclude that he could do the same with Vitiate's FLS.

As for your question about a dark sider's death, Starkiller's death destroyed the Emperor's tower on the death star, and Plagueis' death caused a tremor on Coruscant. Although Vitiate was in the process of bringing the temple down before he died, the energy released after his death could have been used to finish the job. Regardless, even if Vitiate is capable of the feat under normal circumstances, you already agree that Yoda is his superior with TK, so I'm not seeing how Vitiate would win a force contest, considering that a feat to feat comparison between his and Sidious' lightning, he has only been shown to rival Palpatine in that area while on a nexus. Scorching a giant sith spawn to ash, and rendering Yoda level force users unconscious with a very short blast are both lightning feats Palpatine can achieve without the use of a nexus amp.

Neph has accused me of using circular logic by using Palpatine's first lightning attack on Yoda as a feat, but it's not; it just shows that Palpatine is capable of one-shotting a force user as powerful as Yoda, who hasn't mastered the ability of force absorption.

Also, I'm not saying it's impossible for Vitiate to force push Sidious, but the force push Yoda used on Sidious wasn't by surprise, as Yoda was face to face with Sidious and even said a one-liner before he attacked. Evidently the power behind his force push was enough to cause Palpatine to rethink doing battle with him, something Sidious stated to have been waiting a long time for. However, I do agree that Sidious hold a slight advantage in TK on account of their senate pod chucking match.

source for it not being a ritual/amp/prep lmao

"Global cataclysms are not unheard of. Whole worlds teeming with life have been rendered lifeless by meteorites, broken apart by instability in the planet's own core--even atomized by the destructive force of a supernova. But the eerie calm of a world stripped of life yet left otherwise intact is another matter altogether. Whispered rumors have persisted of planets snuffed out through intricate Sith rituals or by way of deadly, arcane machines--such as the device Revan sought to employ on Yavin 4--but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme. In her address to the Galactic Republic, Supreme Chancellor Leontyne Saresh mourned the loss of life, vowing to "stop the mad Sith Emperor at any cost." Similarly, word has filtered through the Sith Empire that the Dark Council is actively hunting their former Emperor while also working with renowned Sith alchemists on a plan to destroy the one they call Vitiate for good."

Vitiate bruh. Always Vitiate.

Still Yoda.

Really?

That life draining won't help if his face is blown off with TK.

THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS BRUH

VITIATE DA BESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

@reikai

@i_like_swords said:

@highaccuser said:

@balee_dattttt said:

@highaccuser said:

Still Yoda.

Really?

That life draining won't help if his face is blown off with TK.

THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS BRUH

VITIATE DA BESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

There are better false gods.

Yoda won back then, and he still does now.

N'aw.. you guys are so set in your ways :)

Bump. I'd think Yoda wins a slight majority. Better duelist, faster, about as good as a combative Force user, and comparable in raw power.

That's one example. But look at Luke VS Caedus, Yoda VS Sidious, etc. So it is quite relevant.

Speed feats for Vitiate, please.

Yes, really.