Yoda versus Darth Maul

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Silver2467

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#51  Edited By Silver2467
@JediXMan said:
@Silver2467:   I think an Obi-Wan vs Maul fight would be interesting, personally. Perhaps we should make that thread (not as our thread, though. I'd rather do something different)
I could add that to our list, if nothing else. It is certainly debatable. 
 
On that subject, what do you want to debate anyway?
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#52  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator
@Silver2467
 
We could, but I'd rather leave that for open debate rather than just you and me. It doesn't interest me quite as much as the others we already have listed. 
 
Right now, I'm leaning toward something involving Bane, Zannah, or possibly Plagueis as soon as I'm done with it. Caedus wouldn't be bad, either.
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#53  Edited By Silver2467
@JediXMan: Plagueis vs Yoda, maybe? Or Plagueis vs Luke?

Or for Bane, maybe Bane vs NR era Luke? Or Bane & Zannah vs Dooku and Maul?
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#54  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator
@Silver2467 said:
@JediXMan: Plagueis vs Yoda, maybe? Or Plagueis vs Luke?Or for Bane, maybe Bane vs NR era Luke? Or Bane & Zannah vs Dooku and Maul?
Only one I don't like is Plagueis vs Luke. But that last one.... now that's intriguing. Me on Bane and Zannah and you on Dooku and Maul?
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#55  Edited By Silver2467
@JediXMan said: 
Only one I don't like is Plagueis vs Luke.
Really? I think as long as Luke isn't at his prime, there is a debate there somewhere. 
 
But that last one.... now that's intriguing. Me on Bane and Zannah and you on Dooku and Maul?
Sure.
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#56  Edited By Video_Martian

@jashro44 said:

Yoda. He stood up to the emperor himself.
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#57  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator
@Silver2467 said:
@JediXMan said: 
Only one I don't like is Plagueis vs Luke.
Really? I think as long as Luke isn't at his prime, there is a debate there somewhere. 
 
But that last one.... now that's intriguing. Me on Bane and Zannah and you on Dooku and Maul?
Sure.
Oh, not in his prime? I know you specified NR for Bane, but since you didn't for Plagueis, I assumed when you said Luke you meant Luke.
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#58  Edited By Silver2467
@JediXMan said:
@Silver2467 said:
@JediXMan said: 
Only one I don't like is Plagueis vs Luke.
Really? I think as long as Luke isn't at his prime, there is a debate there somewhere. 
 
But that last one.... now that's intriguing. Me on Bane and Zannah and you on Dooku and Maul?
Sure.
Oh, not in his prime? I know you specified NR for Bane, but since you didn't for Plagueis, I assumed when you said Luke you meant Luke.
Ah, sorry for the confusion. 
 
When would you like to start that thread?
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#59  Edited By acer51

Yoda would defeat Maul easily, not horribly easily but his TK would be just to much for him.

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#60  Edited By steelhound56

All out fight Yoda wins with moderate difficulty.

Maul is no slouch in saber combat, beating Qui Gon is a great feat, but Yoda is the best duelist in the Order.

Yoda displayed superior speed, agility and technique to Maul. He wins after Maul eventually makes a single mistake, and Yoda exploits it

Force wise, Yoda slaughters him.

Maul must have be strong in the Force for Sidious to recruit him, but Yoda has hundreds of years of study and training to draw upon, and is confirmed as having the most Force power/ability in the Order, exception of Anakin (who had the most potential, but didnt realize it due to Mustafar)

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#61  Edited By Montaq

Yoda drops a Brisk machine on him.

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#62  Edited By nickthedevil

Yoda

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#63  Edited By jasongil333

@jeanroygrant said:

@jashro44 said:

Yoda. He stood up to the emperor himself.
seriously nuff said^
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#64  Edited By jasongil333

@Silver2467: You said yoda is more powerful than mace and you know this for a fact huh??? well please state fact because heres how i see it

Mace>emperor (Mace lost because of PIS)

Yoda<Emperor

So wouldnt that mean Mace > Yoda????

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#65  Edited By Silver2467
@jasongil333: Yes, actually, I do know this for a fact. Yoda is factually and irrefutably a better duelist than Mace. 
 
Yoda is possibly the most skilled duelist in the history of the Jedi Order.

To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen.

--Taken from Insider #62 
  
Nick Gillard identifies Yoda as the best duelist in the Order. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m2yIAxeBHA&feature=player_embedded  

"We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda."

 
http://web.archive.org/web/20051125042817/http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/bts/production/news20000711b.html  

"Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda."


Yoda is noted as the most skilled lightsaber duelist on the Council. 

Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.

--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter


And Yoda has defeated Mace Windu in lightsaber combat. 

Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

--Taken from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook  

And since you want to use ABC logic: Dooku has beaten Mace before, and Yoda has beaten Dooku twice, one of which times occurred while Dooku was enhanced by the Force energies on Vjun. Therefore, Yoda>Dooku>Mace. 
 
Now isn't it better not to use ABC logic? 
 
Let's also not overlook the fact that Mace was amped to an ungodly degree when he fought Palpatine. So setting aside the fact that the entire duel may have been staged, even if he did legitimately win, he won because he was fighting at a level greater than usual. I will copy/paste what I have described before, which you can read in full here, but just to give the main summary. 
 
For the first point, let me show how this happened. Mace received a temporary, critical speed augmentation for this one duel. This happened because of the nature of Vaapad. Vaapad is an off-shoot of the Juyo form of lightsaber combat. Juyo is an aggressive and erratic fighting form, much more than even Ataru is, and it is this aggression that has made it a matter of discussion among Jedi whether Juyo is a safe style to learn. It relies on simply relentless strokes thrown continually until the user's opponent is defeated. The notable difference between Juyo and Vaapad is that Vaapad is a channel for darkness. It takes the user "through the penumbra of the dark side." Vaapad affords the practitioner the ability to harness their own inner darkness as a ferocity and drive in combat but does so without them falling victim to their darkness. Basically, Mace or Sora or Depa could draw on their darkness and still stay true to the light. Vaapad also works to turn the darkness of the enemy against them, but this has its limitations. It does not equate to an instant victory against any dark sider; if it did, Mace would not have lost his fight with Kar Vastor. The more darkness in the user, the more potent Vaapad will be. However, in Mace's duel with Palpatine, he achieved a fighting state he had never accomplished before, and this happened because, at that time, the darkness within him had been monumentally increased. It was increased because Mace had an attachment to the Republic that was shattered when Anakin told him that Palpatine, the Republic's Supreme Chancellor, was the Sith. The Republic he had been fighting for had already fallen under the Sith's influence, and this affected him at his core, heightening his darkness. On account of that, Mace managed to wield his own immensely accentuated darkness, Sidious' darkness, and Anakin's fear in order to enhance his speed so much that Anakin was unable to see the movements of Mace's blade and instead only saw the dozens of afterimages of it and the "nets" and "oblate sphere" he blurred from his lightsaber. Mace has never shown to be faster than Anakin or anyone of Anakin's speed class. Characters such as General Grievous, Asajj Ventress, Count Dooku, Saesee Tiin, Anakin, and others are all roughly even in speed (Anakin has demonstrated feats of speed that imply he could be faster when operating at his peak). Mace and Dooku dueled briefly on Boz Pity without Mace gaining any advantage. Ventress fought with Mace briefly before her being forced to flee, but he never outmatched her in speed. Grievous roughly stalemated Mace in a duel. Point is, Windu's consistent feats show that he is nowhere near the fighting speed depicted in his duel with Palpatine, and the book makes it very clear that he was amped in that fight.

Because Mace, too, has an attachment. Mace has a secret love. Mace Windu loves the Republic.
Many of his students quote him to students of their own: "Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace."
For Mace Windu, for all his life, for all the lives of a thousand years of Jedi before him, true civilization has had only one true name: the Republic.
He has given his life in the service of his love. He has taken lives in its service, and lost the lives of innocents. He has seen beings that he cares for maimed, and killed, and sometimes worse: sometimes so broken by the horror of the struggle that their only answer was to commit horrors greater still.
And because of that love now, here, in this instant, Anakin Skywalker has nine words for him that shred his heart, burn its pieces, and feed him its smoking ashes.
Palpatine is Sidious. The Chancellor is the Sith Lord.
He doesn't even hear the words, not really; their true meaning is too large for his mind gather in all at once.
They mean that all he's done, and all that has been done to him—
That all the Order has accomplished, all it has suffered—
All the Galaxy itself has gone through, all the years of suffering and slaughter, the death of entire planets—
Has all been for nothing.
Because it was all done to save the Republic.
Which was already gone.
Which had already fallen.
The corpse of which had been defended only by a Jedi Order that was now under the command of a Dark Lord of the Sith. Mace Windu's entire existence has become crystal so shot-through with flaws that the hammer of those nine words has crushed him to sand.

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own:an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once. 
The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine
Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening. 
Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts. 

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith   
 
As can be seen, Mace's own abilities were elevated for that one battle. To further solidify this point, Palpatine killed Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin before either could react. Both of them have speed feats that place them on an even level with Mace. So how is it they died so quickly, yet Mace, who is not faster than they are, could last? Another source even states that Palpatine killed Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto before Mace realized it, showing the difference in speed between Palpatine and Mace and showing that had Mace not tapped into a greater speed level/fighting state, he would have similarly been unable to match Palpatine's speed. 

Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary    
 
So no matter how you look at this, if Mace never improved his fighting capabilities, he would have been cut down just as quickly as Saesee, Agen, and Kit were. 
 
Next point: Mace only fought as a perfect equal with Palpatine. The novel is very clear that Mace, even when his speed and combat efficiency are so acutely aggrandized, is still only an equal with Palpatine in a duel. 

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue. 
Impasse.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith   
 
This proves that Mace is incontestably not a better duelist than Sidious regardless of what some may think. 
 
Which leads us to the next point: If Mace isn't a more skilled duelist, how did he win? Setting aside the possibility that Palpatine allowed him to, the novel shows that Windu won by exploiting Palpatine's fear which caused him to become distracted and slow down. Mace felt fear emanating around the office, which he believed was Palpatine's, and abused it by breaking the window, resulting in Palpatine hesitating when he stood near it for fear of falling down. This allowed Mace to land a blow that disarmed him. 

Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish. His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad. 
He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half. 
One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith  
 
So Mace capitalized on the fear. However, the fear he felt was not Palpatine's; it was Anakin's. Sidious seemed to somehow project Anakin's fear out through himself (either that, or Mace's Force senses are incredibly inaccurate, but it makes no sense to me that Mace would simply "miss" in detecting whose fear it was; it makes more sense that Palpatine misdirected it).  

"For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord," Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, "is under arrest." 
"Do you see, Anakin? Do you?" Palpatine's voice once again had the broken cadence of a frightened old man's. "Didn't I warn you of the Jedi and their treason?" 
"Save your twisted words, my lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never regain control of the Republic. It's over. You've lost." Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear." 
Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons. 
"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?" 
Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source. Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified. He fed the power with his pain. 
"Anakin!" Mace called. His voice sounded distant, blurred, as if it came from the bottom of a well. "Anakin, help me! This is your chance!" 
He felt Anakin's leap from the office floor to the ledge, felt his approach behind—And Palpatine was not afraid. Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
 
But if Mace won by manipulating Palpatine's fear, how did he win if he was never afraid in the first place? 
 
Even if Mace really did win, it makes no difference. Only being a perfect equal to Palpatine on raw skill even while augmented to a ridiculous extent does not in any way, shape, or form prove Mace is a better duelist than Palpatine or Yoda. 
 
So, yes, I know for a fact that Yoda is better than Mace.
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@jashro44 said:

Yoda. He stood up to the emperor himself.
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#67  Edited By SpidermanWins

@Silver2467 said:

@SpidermanWins: Yoda has never disarmed another Force sensitive with the Force during a duel. If he were to accomplish that, he would have to do so before he and Maul cross blades. Once they do, it will be a fight. Again, I have no idea why everyone assumes Yoda would easily win a duel when he has never shown to easily beat characters of Maul's skill class.

Before they cross blades? Fine, why can't he do that then. I mean, yes, it is like cheating, freezing someone in place before the battle even starts like he did with Asajj in that Clone Wars episode, but I don't see why he couldn't just do that or otherwise use his incredible force power.. Maul is not Dooku, he is more of a combat-centric fighter and has less force prowess. To me, considering his display of power, Maul is somewhere between Dooku and Ventress when it comes to power in force/skill in combat. But I think that Yoda could, at the very lest use the his force superiority to his advantage, as he often does.

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#68  Edited By Silver2467
@SpidermanWins said: 

Before they cross blades? Fine, why can't he do that then.

I never said he can't. I stipulated your point because it is not applicable in every situation. 
 

I mean, yes, it is like cheating, freezing someone in place before the battle even starts like he did with Asajj in that Clone Wars episode.

He never froze Ventress in place. He just took away her lightsabers. And in no way is it cheating. 
 

Maul is not Dooku, he is more of a combat-centric fighter and has less force prowess.

Dooku is more combat centric as well; so, no, if anything, Maul is very similar to Dooku. 
 

To me, considering his display of power, Maul is somewhere between Dooku and Ventress when it comes to power in force/skill in combat.

This is completely tangential, not to mention not altogether accurate. 
 

But I think that Yoda could, at the very lest use the his force superiority to his advantage, as he often does.

Often does? I have read every major appearance Yoda has, and the only, singular time Yoda has utilized his Force superiority to defeat an enemy rather than duel them was against Ventress in TCW. 
 
No one said that Yoda couldn't disarm Maul with the Force as he did with Ventress. The point I made was that he has to do that rather than engage Maul in a duel, because if they duel, Yoda has never removed an enemy's weapon with the Force in the midst of a fight, and a duel between them would be a decent battle.
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#69  Edited By SpidermanWins

@Silver2467 said:

1. true enough

2. Actually he freezes her in place when she tries to kill the leader of the Toydarians. Here, skip to 7:05. Excuse the fact that it's in Spainsh, not that it matters in this case anyway.

3. Okay, let me rephrase, Darth Maul does not use the force as strongly or show quite as much skill in that as Dooku. He focuses more on combat than the force where as Dooku also employs and demonstrates powerful skill in the force more often and is stronger in that respect. I'm not saying Maul has no skill in the force, I am aware of his abilities: a degree of telekinesis and force lightning generation, force lightning resistance, force push/choke abilities, etc. But he isn't capable of taking the place of Dooku in the Phantom Menace's display of power against Yoda, or do what he did to Obi-Wan in Revenge of the Sith.

4. And what was the purpose of that kind of retort? It was simply an understanding of where Maul's power level lies overall so that the things being talked about can be better used to compare to Maul, like this whole thing with Ventress and if Yoda could do that to Maul. Clearly you don't agree with my attempted ratio. Why not? What is your stand on that?

5. I meant in battle against enemies in general...

6.... ok then

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#70  Edited By m0ntyb0y

Yoda outclasses Maul, as cool as the latter is

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#71  Edited By AngelicPhoenix

what about robot maul?? is he stronger when he comes back??

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#72  Edited By ferteron

Of course, Yoda.

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#73  Edited By steelhound56

@Silver2467 said:

@jasongil333: Yes, actually, I do know this for a fact. Yoda is factually and irrefutably a better duelist than Mace.

Yoda is possibly the most skilled duelist in the history of the Jedi Order.

To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen.

--Taken from Insider #62

Nick Gillard identifies Yoda as the best duelist in the Order.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m2yIAxeBHA&feature=player_embedded

"We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda."


http://web.archive.org/web/20051125042817/http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/bts/production/news20000711b.html

"Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda."


Yoda is noted as the most skilled lightsaber duelist on the Council.

Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.

--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter


And Yoda has defeated Mace Windu in lightsaber combat.

Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

--Taken from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

And since you want to use ABC logic: Dooku has beaten Mace before, and Yoda has beaten Dooku twice, one of which times occurred while Dooku was enhanced by the Force energies on Vjun. Therefore, Yoda>Dooku>Mace.

Now isn't it better not to use ABC logic?

Let's also not overlook the fact that Mace was amped to an ungodly degree when he fought Palpatine. So setting aside the fact that the entire duel may have been staged, even if he did legitimately win, he won because he was fighting at a level greater than usual. I will copy/paste what I have described before, which you can read in full here, but just to give the main summary.

For the first point, let me show how this happened. Mace received a temporary, critical speed augmentation for this one duel. This happened because of the nature of Vaapad. Vaapad is an off-shoot of the Juyo form of lightsaber combat. Juyo is an aggressive and erratic fighting form, much more than even Ataru is, and it is this aggression that has made it a matter of discussion among Jedi whether Juyo is a safe style to learn. It relies on simply relentless strokes thrown continually until the user's opponent is defeated. The notable difference between Juyo and Vaapad is that Vaapad is a channel for darkness. It takes the user "through the penumbra of the dark side." Vaapad affords the practitioner the ability to harness their own inner darkness as a ferocity and drive in combat but does so without them falling victim to their darkness. Basically, Mace or Sora or Depa could draw on their darkness and still stay true to the light. Vaapad also works to turn the darkness of the enemy against them, but this has its limitations. It does not equate to an instant victory against any dark sider; if it did, Mace would not have lost his fight with Kar Vastor. The more darkness in the user, the more potent Vaapad will be. However, in Mace's duel with Palpatine, he achieved a fighting state he had never accomplished before, and this happened because, at that time, the darkness within him had been monumentally increased. It was increased because Mace had an attachment to the Republic that was shattered when Anakin told him that Palpatine, the Republic's Supreme Chancellor, was the Sith. The Republic he had been fighting for had already fallen under the Sith's influence, and this affected him at his core, heightening his darkness. On account of that, Mace managed to wield his own immensely accentuated darkness, Sidious' darkness, and Anakin's fear in order to enhance his speed so much that Anakin was unable to see the movements of Mace's blade and instead only saw the dozens of afterimages of it and the "nets" and "oblate sphere" he blurred from his lightsaber. Mace has never shown to be faster than Anakin or anyone of Anakin's speed class. Characters such as General Grievous, Asajj Ventress, Count Dooku, Saesee Tiin, Anakin, and others are all roughly even in speed (Anakin has demonstrated feats of speed that imply he could be faster when operating at his peak). Mace and Dooku dueled briefly on Boz Pity without Mace gaining any advantage. Ventress fought with Mace briefly before her being forced to flee, but he never outmatched her in speed. Grievous roughly stalemated Mace in a duel. Point is, Windu's consistent feats show that he is nowhere near the fighting speed depicted in his duel with Palpatine, and the book makes it very clear that he was amped in that fight.

Because Mace, too, has an attachment. Mace has a secret love. Mace Windu loves the Republic.
Many of his students quote him to students of their own: "Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace."
For Mace Windu, for all his life, for all the lives of a thousand years of Jedi before him, true civilization has had only one true name: the Republic.
He has given his life in the service of his love. He has taken lives in its service, and lost the lives of innocents. He has seen beings that he cares for maimed, and killed, and sometimes worse: sometimes so broken by the horror of the struggle that their only answer was to commit horrors greater still.
And because of that love now, here, in this instant, Anakin Skywalker has nine words for him that shred his heart, burn its pieces, and feed him its smoking ashes.
Palpatine is Sidious. The Chancellor is the Sith Lord.
He doesn't even hear the words, not really; their true meaning is too large for his mind gather in all at once.
They mean that all he's done, and all that has been done to him—
That all the Order has accomplished, all it has suffered—
All the Galaxy itself hasgone through, all the years of suffering and slaughter, the death of entire planets—
Has all been for nothing.
Because it was all done to save the Republic.
Which was already gone.
Which had already fallen.
The corpse of which had been defended only by a Jedi Order that was now under the command of a Dark Lord of the Sith. Mace Windu's entire existence has become crystal so shot-through with flaws that the hammer of those nine words has crushed him to sand.

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own:an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.
The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?
Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.
Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

As can be seen, Mace's own abilities were elevated for that one battle. To further solidify this point, Palpatine killed Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin before either could react. Both of them have speed feats that place them on an even level with Mace. So how is it they died so quickly, yet Mace, who is not faster than they are, could last? Another source even states that Palpatine killed Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto before Mace realized it, showing the difference in speed between Palpatine and Mace and showing that had Mace not tapped into a greater speed level/fighting state, he would have similarly been unable to match Palpatine's speed.

Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

So no matter how you look at this, if Mace never improved his fighting capabilities, he would have been cut down just as quickly as Saesee, Agen, and Kit were.

Next point: Mace only fought as a perfect equal with Palpatine. The novel is very clear that Mace, even when his speed and combat efficiency are so acutely aggrandized, is still only an equal with Palpatine in a duel.

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

This proves that Mace is incontestably not a better duelist than Sidious regardless of what some may think.

Which leads us to the next point: If Mace isn't a more skilled duelist, how did he win? Setting aside the possibility that Palpatine allowed him to, the novel shows that Windu won by exploiting Palpatine's fear which caused him to become distracted and slow down. Mace felt fear emanating around the office, which he believed was Palpatine's, and abused it by breaking the window, resulting in Palpatine hesitating when he stood near it for fear of falling down. This allowed Mace to land a blow that disarmed him.

Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish. His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.
He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half.
One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

So Mace capitalized on the fear. However, the fear he felt was not Palpatine's; it was Anakin's. Sidious seemed to somehow project Anakin's fear out through himself (either that, or Mace's Force senses are incredibly inaccurate, but it makes no sense to me that Mace would simply "miss" in detecting whose fear it was; it makes more sense that Palpatine misdirected it).

"For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord," Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, "is under arrest."
"Do you see, Anakin? Do you?" Palpatine's voice once again had the broken cadence of a frightened old man's. "Didn't I warn you of the Jedi and their treason?"
"Save your twisted words, my lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never regain control of the Republic. It's over. You've lost." Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."
Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.
"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel ismine?"
Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source. Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified. He fed the power with his pain.
"Anakin!" Mace called. His voice sounded distant, blurred, as if it came from the bottom of a well. "Anakin, help me! This is your chance!"
He felt Anakin's leap from the office floor to the ledge, felt his approach behind—And Palpatine was not afraid.Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith But if Mace won by manipulating Palpatine's fear, how did he win if he was never afraid in the first place? Even if Mace really did win, it makes no difference. Only being a perfect equal to Palpatine on raw skill even while augmented to a ridiculous extent does not in any way, shape, or form prove Mace is a better duelist than Palpatine or Yoda. So, yes, I know for a fact that Yoda is better than Mace.

Could not have summed it up better. A lot of SW fans insist that Mace is a better combatant than Palpatine. This is utterly untrue due to the reasons listed above

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Silver2467

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#74  Edited By Silver2467
@SpidermanWins said: 

2. Actually he freezes her in place when she tries to kill the leader of the Toydarians. Here, skip to 7:05. Excuse the fact that it's in Spainsh, not that it matters in this case anyway.


I stand corrected. 
 

3. Okay, let me rephrase, Darth Maul does not use the force as strongly or show quite as much skill in that as Dooku. He focuses more on combat than the force where as Dooku also employs and demonstrates powerful skill in the force more often and is stronger in that respect. I'm not saying Maul has no skill in the force, I am aware of his abilities: a degree of telekinesis and force lightning generation, force lightning resistance, force push/choke abilities, etc. But he isn't capable of taking the place of Dooku in the Phantom Menace's display of power against Yoda, or do what he did to Obi-Wan in Revenge of the Sith.

Maul does not know Force Lightning. 
 
I also never said Maul is as powerful as Dooku; I said, similar to Dooku, he is more combat centric. I understand and agree with your intended point, but it still makes little difference here. 
 

4. And what was the purpose of that kind of retort? It was simply an understanding of where Maul's power level lies overall so that the things being talked about can be better used to compare to Maul, like this whole thing with Ventress and if Yoda could do that to Maul. Clearly you don't agree with my attempted ratio. Why not? What is your stand on that?

I see no particular reason to derail this with a discussion about how powerful Maul is compared to Ventress, as that subject is rather complex; so let's address what is actually relevant here. 
 

5. I meant in battle against enemies in general...

Alright. 
 
Still, my point has been made: Yoda can disarm Maul with the Force, but if he chooses to duel him, it would be a closer match.
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izbighulk

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#75  Edited By izbighulk

no he can't this are movie versions when did yoda disarmed anybody whit the force in the movie

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#76  Edited By Silver2467
@izbighulk said:

no he can't this are movie versions when did yoda disarmed anybody whit the force in the movie

Hmm. Never noticed that. I thought these were EU versions the entire time. So shame on me for not paying enough attention to the OP. 
 
Point made. Movie versions, Yoda still wins in a decent duel.
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SpidermanWins

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#77  Edited By SpidermanWins

@Silver2467 said:

@SpidermanWins said:

2. Actually he freezes her in place when she tries to kill the leader of the Toydarians. Here, skip to 7:05. Excuse the fact that it's in Spainsh, not that it matters in this case anyway.

I stand corrected.

3. Okay, let me rephrase, Darth Maul does not use the force as strongly or show quite as much skill in that as Dooku. He focuses more on combat than the force where as Dooku also employs and demonstrates powerful skill in the force more often and is stronger in that respect. I'm not saying Maul has no skill in the force, I am aware of his abilities: a degree of telekinesis and force lightning generation, force lightning resistance, force push/choke abilities, etc. But he isn't capable of taking the place of Dooku in the Phantom Menace's display of power against Yoda, or do what he did to Obi-Wan in Revenge of the Sith.

Maul does not know Force Lightning.

I also never said Maul is as powerful as Dooku; I said, similar to Dooku, he is more combat centric. I understand and agree with your intended point, but it still makes little difference here.

4. And what was the purpose of that kind of retort? It was simply an understanding of where Maul's power level lies overall so that the things being talked about can be better used to compare to Maul, like this whole thing with Ventress and if Yoda could do that to Maul. Clearly you don't agree with my attempted ratio. Why not? What is your stand on that?

I see no particular reason to derail this with a discussion about how powerful Maul is compared to Ventress, as that subject is rather complex; so let's address what is actually relevant here.

5. I meant in battle against enemies in general...

Alright. Still, my point has been made: Yoda can disarm Maul with the Force, but if he chooses to duel him, it would be a closer match.

Fair enough

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MRAChakravartin

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Yeah Yoda wins. He is THE most powerful jedi besides NJO Luke.

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Erkan12

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Jedi Grand Master = Sith Master

his rival should be Sidious or Plagueis

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Edude117

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No, guys. Maul wins easily. He uses a batarang to disable Yoda's robe and then he uses his adamantium claws to cut through Yoda's spider senses. Either he does that, or he summons Jesus (as he did in episode one) and makes him walk on water which give Yoda such a mindf*ck that it kills him. Maul ftw.

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#81  Edited By Pharoh_Atem

Yoda wins every time.

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deathstroke19

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@mrachakravartin: that one year bump though. Lol.

I want to be a rebel and say Maul but i cant. Yoda FTW.

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nfactor1995

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Yoda wins with mid difficulty. Maul is pretty comparable to Dooku, but he also has a double sided lightsaber and is fueled by his rage so it may be a slightly closer fight then Yoda vs Dooku.

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Eisenfauste

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I'll give maul the nod here. He's definitely a skilled duelist since he's taken on both obi-wan and anakin combined. Not to mention pre prime maul was stated to be able to killa group of enemies in an eye blink. So there shouldn't be too much of a speed disparity to them though yoda could get the slight edge in this category.

Yoda has the power category of course but honestly he doesn't use the force too much in a duel so I don't see this being a problem for maul

Maul wins 5.001/10 times for the slimmest of majorities

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juiceboks

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#85  Edited By juiceboks  Moderator

Yoda handily by virtue of being better in..well..everything. This isn't debatable.

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NinjaWarrior268

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Yoda's short so he will probably cut off Maul's legs. If his new machine legs can't be cut, then Yoda jumps up and cuts Maul's head in the time it takes for Maul to swing his lightsaber at Yoda

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nerdchore

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@silver2467: im not a star wars expert. But id love to see whichever debate you guys decide to do.

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BeyondTOAA

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Yoda rapes

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Xargo

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@kcaz: technically he fled though yoda probably would have won

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007007007

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By Yoda, Darth Maul gets beaten

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alextheboss

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#91  Edited By alextheboss
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Silver2467

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#92  Edited By Silver2467

Yoda 10/10. Just plain better.

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HUGE mis-match. Yoda curbstomps. He's shown far more impressive feats. He took on Count Dooku and Dooku retreated because he couldn't contend with Yoda's lightsaber skill. He's also gone head to head with Darth Sidious, arguably the most powerful Sith. Especially since the only feats we've seen from Maul in the movies are beating an out of shape Qui-Gon and then losing to Obi-Wan as a padawan, I'd say Yoda is far superior.

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Chewbacca

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Yoda wins without his lightsaber, a force push from him could potentially cause serious injury to Maul.

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DaDivineKing

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Ummm, why was this bumped?

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WollfMyth209

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Yoda would not beat Maul easily, anymore than he didn't beat Dooku easily. Maul may not be as skilled as Dooku, but he is very close. There is no reason to assume Yoda would somehow perform with greater efficiency here. Maul would lose, but he can provide a decent challenge.

so yoda was superior to dooku and was able to stalemate sidious. both oh which who were far above obi-wan kenobi(the guy that killed maul) and yet this would be a challenge?

sidious himself stated dooku was stronger and even he couldn't touch yoda, literally. maybe you didn't see the movie, idk, but nothing dooku did could even compare to yoda. he even that a saber battle would be useless, and we all know dooku is an extremely skilled duelist, and that it would be decided by a force battle, which yoda then again went to show was use less as nothing he did even came close to harming yoda.

sidious threw yoda back and was able to match him where as dooku threw some lightning(that was easily countered) and threw some metal machinery(again countered) and literally had to resort to attempting to crush obi-wan and anakin to be able to even escape. if it was "close" he wouldn't have needed to even try to escape so badly.

dooku is great yes, thats a given. he was able to out duel a jedi knight twice(obi-wan) and then take on his padawan and win and then still take on a grand master and live to tell about it. but saying it was a close match is not that accurate. sidious versus yoda? THAT was close, even yoda admits that he almost died and sidious has a bit of a panic when he fights out there was no body found. he was genuinely surprised by yoga's strength when he was thrown back and countered in their fights.

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noobsnowman

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If Yoda starts by using the Force, yeah he one shots.

In a lightsaber clash, Maul could hold his own briefly before falling.

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Yoda TK's him immediately and he dies.

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#100  Edited By Erkan12

Against Dooku, despite Yoda was holding back, and despite Dooku's knowledge over Ataru, Dooku was no match for Yoda. Both comic-book and the novel confirms it. And Maul, physically superior to Dooku, and very close to him in terms of Force and dueling skills, he would get the same treatment. Maul doesn't know Yoda's style, but the same applies to Yoda, he doesn't know Maul's fighting style either, he would be cautious at first due to confronting with a Sith lord in combat, he wouldn't use his full power at the beginning, I am thinking it like Mace Windu duel in SoD, Mace failed to finish the duel due to circumstantial reasons, but he could eventually defeat Maul even if he loses Aayla in the duel. Yoda takes it slowly at the beginning and then he outduels Maul afterwards.

@gijoeymc said:

Maul in the movies are beating an out of shape Qui-Gon and then losing to Obi-Wan as a padawan, I'd say Yoda is far superior.

Seriously, these people aren't watching the movies...

First of all, Kenobi was knighted in TPM, and he even gets a padawan learner himself; Anakin, he was already a Jedi Knight according to his master Qui-Gon and he was ready.

Loading Video...
Loading Video...

Qui-Gon : Obi-Wan is ready.

Obi-Wan : I am ready to face the trials.

(...)

Yoda : Confer on you the level of Jedi Knight the council does.

- The Phantom Menace

I am just going with the movie feats in here, since OP says the movie versions, even then ;

No Caption Provided

The Phantom Menace Visual Dictionary : ''Maul is equal to two Jedi''

This is directly from the movie's dictionary.

Maul disarms TPM Kenobi twice times in their duel,

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Kenobi only cuts Maul in half because ;

A: Maul underestimates an unarmed and beaten TPM Kenobi.

B: Maul forgets Qui-Gon's lightsaber after he disarms Kenobi, which is why Kenobi surprises him with Qui-Gon's lightsaber and catches him off-guard.