Darth Sidious > Yoda, and according to common belief, Palpatine allowed Windu to put him in that vulnerable position so that he could turn Anakin. Otherwise he would have killed Windu as well. So, team Sith should take this.
On the other hand, all Yoda needs to do is claim to be Anakin's son and cry out "FATHER, please!" and the Jedi will win.
#3
Posted by Dane
(10162 posts)
- 2 years, 7 months ago
- Show Bio
@puiwaihin said:
" Darth Sidious > Yoda, and according to common belief, Palpatine allowed Windu to put him in that vulnerable position so that he could turn Anakin. Otherwise he would have killed Windu as well. So, team Sith should take this. On the other hand, all Yoda needs to do is claim to be Anakin's son and cry out "FATHER, please!" and the Jedi will win. "
Incorrect. Lucas himself has stated that Sidious was going all out in his duel with Mace Windu. Windu was just the better duellist. Either of the Jedi masters would have defeated an Episode III era Anakin easily. Yoda was quite evenly matched with Sidious and Windu, despite not having the same level of force powers, could defeat him in a duel.
#4
Posted by karrob
(4207 posts)
- 2 years, 7 months ago
- Show Bio
@Dane said:
" @puiwaihin said:
" Darth Sidious > Yoda, and according to common belief, Palpatine allowed Windu to put him in that vulnerable position so that he could turn Anakin. Otherwise he would have killed Windu as well. So, team Sith should take this. On the other hand, all Yoda needs to do is claim to be Anakin's son and cry out "FATHER, please!" and the Jedi will win. "
Incorrect. Lucas himself has stated that Sidious was going all out in his duel with Mace Windu. Windu was just the better duellist. Either of the Jedi masters would have defeated an Episode III era Anakin easily. Yoda was quite evenly matched with Sidious and Windu, despite not having the same level of force powers, could defeat him in a duel. Yoda and Mace Windu would win. "
" Darth Sidious > Yoda, and according to common belief, Palpatine allowed Windu to put him in that vulnerable position so that he could turn Anakin. Otherwise he would have killed Windu as well. So, team Sith should take this. On the other hand, all Yoda needs to do is claim to be Anakin's son and cry out "FATHER, please!" and the Jedi will win. "
Incorrect. Lucas himself has stated that Sidious was going all out in his duel with Mace Windu. Windu was just the better duellist. Either of the Jedi masters would have defeated an Episode III era Anakin easily. Yoda was quite evenly matched with Sidious and Windu, despite not having the same level of force powers, could defeat him in a duel. Yoda and Mace Windu would win. "
I believe that is correct, and both the Jedi could take Anakin down easily.
@Dane: Incorrect. Lucas himself has stated that Sidious was going all out in his duel with Mace Windu. Windu was just the better duellist. Either of the Jedi masters would have defeated an Episode III era Anakin easily. Yoda was quite evenly matched with Sidious and Windu, despite not having the same level of force powers, could defeat him in a duel.
Incorrect. Lucas himself has stated that Sidious was going all out in his duel with Mace Windu. Windu was just the better duellist. Either of the Jedi masters would have defeated an Episode III era Anakin easily. Yoda was quite evenly matched with Sidious and Windu, despite not having the same level of force powers, could defeat him in a duel. Yoda and Mace Windu would win. "
Which is irrelevant given the fact that Yoda is canonically a more skilled duelist than Windu is, and he failed to defeat Sidious.
Question. Is Sidious in his Revenge of the Sith levels, or is he in his prime?
" thats not true, windu was the best duellist en all entire saga, yoda was the best with the force. there's no sith who can beat windu in a fair contest "
Yes, it is true. It has been stated in canon sources that Yoda is more skilled than Windu. And I am getting sick and tired of hearing this myth that Windu can never be defeated. There are better duelists than Windu.
@Silver man: that is false both Dooku and Yoda could match him but not beat him.
@Silver2467: Yes, it is true. It has been stated in canon sources that Yoda is more skilled than Windu. And I am getting sick and tired of hearing this myth that Windu can never be defeated. There are better duelists than Windu.
and im tired of hearing palpatine lost the battle with mace on purpose. yeah right.....
" and im tired of hearing palpatine lost the battle with mace on purpose. yeah right..... "
If you read my posts, I never said he did. I said that it makes no difference given the fact that Yoda, a more skilled duelist than Windu, failed to defeat him.
Care to name one? And quit saying Yoda is the best at dueling. It's never stated he's the best with a lightsaber, just that he's the most in-tune with the Force.
I personally think this fight could go either way but its all situational, there are a number of ways this could go down.
And for the record Dooku caused a distraction to get away so that he can bring the blue prints and plans back to Sidious. had Dooku not escaped Yoda would have defeated him in a good duel. IMO
@demifiend:"Perhaps only Master Mace Windu equaled him in skill and reputation-though Master Windu argued that he was still but a Padawan compared to Master Yoda." -Taken from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook
It has been stated in other sources also. Dueling skill, Yoda>Windu.
" Darth Sidious > Yoda, and according to common belief, Palpatine allowed Windu to put him in that vulnerable position so that he could turn Anakin. Otherwise he would have killed Windu as well. So, team Sith should take this. On the other hand, all Yoda needs to do is claim to be Anakin's son and cry out "FATHER, please!" and the Jedi will win. "
Incorrect. Lucas himself has stated that Sidious was going all out in his duel with Mace Windu. Windu was just the better duellist. Either of the Jedi masters would have defeated an Episode III era Anakin easily. Yoda was quite evenly matched with Sidious and Windu, despite not having the same level of force powers, could defeat him in a duel. Yoda and Mace Windu would win. "
@necronomicon187: Alright. Not sure I can answer this then. In Dark Empire, Sidious stated that his death in Return of the Jedi was not his first death. I honestly am not sure at what point exactly he learned Essence Transfer. That said, if he knew it during Revenge of the Sith, he solos. Neither Yoda nor Windu ever demonstrated the ability to affect Essences. They have done nothing to prove they could banish his Essence into Chaos. He could possess either one if they killed him. If Sidious did not know Essence Transfer during Revenge of the Sith, Windu and Yoda win. Anakin is the weak link.
Here is the scan where Sidious says it was not his first death, just for the record.
" @necronomicon187: Alright. Not sure I can answer this then. In Dark Empire, Sidious stated that his death in Return of the Jedi was not his first death. I honestly am not sure at what point exactly he learned Essence Transfer. That said, if he knew it during Revenge of the Sith, he solos. Neither Yoda nor Windu ever demonstrated the ability to affect Essences. They have done nothing to prove they could banish his Essence into Chaos. He could possess either one if they killed him. If Sidious did not know Essence Transfer during Revenge of the Sith, Windu and Yoda win. Anakin is the weak link.
Here is the scan where Sidious says it was not his first death, just for the record.
"
@Silver2467: Nice Piece of Footage you got there... Wow the Emperor is quite the powerful one isn't he lol, with this i would have to agree that if Sidious did know this ability in Ep 3 then for sure team sith wins, but if he didn't have the ability then it goes to Yoda & Mace. Thanks for providing the Info and Scan, your thoughts and opinions are greatly appreciated. X )
Palpatine can easily kill Mace before Windu realizes it happened. He is also superior to Yoda, having defeated him already, and if Sidious is in his prime, he beats Yoda with less difficulty. Anakin noticeably supersedes Mace in raw power and at least approaches him in raw skill. Yoda can beat Anakin, but Mace is is the weak link.
Palpatine and Anakin win. Palpatine>Yoda, Palpatine>Mace Windu. If this is DE Sidious he would murder Mace and beat Yoda with slight ease perhaps, but still beat him.
@ComicStooge said:
@Silver2467: Are there any two people from the ROtS era that could take Palpatine and Anakin on as a team and win?
I find that unlikely. Yoda and Plagueis would lose, really.
Actually, don't bother with the above because Plagueis died in TPM era. He isn't ROTS era because he died at the same time Maul got bisected.
Palpatine can easily kill Mace before Windu realizes it happened. He is also superior to Yoda, having defeated him already, and if Sidious is in his prime, he beats Yoda with less difficulty. Anakin noticeably supersedes Mace in raw power and at least approaches him in raw skill. Yoda can beat Anakin, but Mace is is the weak link. Sidious and Anakin win just about every time.
Even incorporating his performance against Dooku, Anakin has to be in a very specific state of mind to defeat someone of Windu’s caliber. Before he was goaded into rage, Dooku was handling him and Obi-Wan simultaneously.
Palpatine can easily kill Mace before Windu realizes it happened. He is also superior to Yoda, having defeated him already, and if Sidious is in his prime, he beats Yoda with less difficulty. Anakin noticeably supersedes Mace in raw power and at least approaches him in raw skill. Yoda can beat Anakin, but Mace is is the weak link. Sidious and Anakin win just about every time.
Even incorporating his performance against Dooku, Anakin has to be in a very specific state of mind to defeat someone of Windu’s caliber. Before he was goaded into rage, Dooku was handling him and Obi-Wan simultaneously.
Dooku was handling Anakin and Obi-Wan while the two of them were employing forms aside from their respective preferred styles to mislead Dooku. Once Obi-Wan adopted his Soresu stance and Anakin adopted his Djem So stance, Dooku was the one on the defensive and was even becoming desperate, enough that he directed battle droids to distract Obi-Wan for a moment, after which Dooku resolved to remove Kenobi from the equation as quickly as possible which he did. Anakin also defeated Dooku's Doppelganger, but yes, I do recognize that a Doppelganger is inferior to the genuine article. Regardless, your point is well received. I said that Anakin approaches Mace. Whether he matches or exceeds him is debatable. His performance as a whole in RotS is fairly impressive though, and the case could be made for Anakin's skill to rival Windu's. Would I personally formulate that case for the purposes of this thread? No. Honestly, I'm unconvinced that Anakin equaled Mace as a duelist and am also unconvinced that Mace outmatches him. Even establishing that Mace is superior to Skywalker as a swordsman, the OP never specified whether the thread stipulates Anakin before or after his fall. If after, Anakin would be in a rage comparable to that which he experienced against Dooku. If not, then I take no issue with your statement since I am undecided on the subject.
However, none of this changes anything about my point. Anakin's greater power in comparison to Mace's could service him well enough to win a minority of matches against him or conceivably level his chances against Mace. Either way, Mace can be killed by Sidious rather quickly without a power amp, and Anakin can at least occupy Mace if all else fails.
Palpatine can easily kill Mace before Windu realizes it happened. He is also superior to Yoda, having defeated him already, and if Sidious is in his prime, he beats Yoda with less difficulty. Anakin noticeably supersedes Mace in raw power and at least approaches him in raw skill. Yoda can beat Anakin, but Mace is is the weak link. Sidious and Anakin win just about every time.
Even incorporating his performance against Dooku, Anakin has to be in a very specific state of mind to defeat someone of Windu’s caliber. Before he was goaded into rage, Dooku was handling him and Obi-Wan simultaneously.
Dooku was handling Anakin and Obi-Wan while the two of them were employing forms aside from their respective preferred styles to mislead Dooku. Once Obi-Wan adopted his Soresu stance and Anakin adopted his Djem So stance, Dooku was the one on the defensive and was even becoming desperate, enough that he directed battle droids to distract Obi-Wan for a moment, after which Dooku resolved to remove Kenobi from the equation as quickly as possible which he did. Anakin also defeated Dooku's Doppelganger, but yes, I do recognize that a Doppelganger is inferior to the genuine article. Regardless, your point is well received. I said that Anakin approaches Mace. Whether he matches or exceeds him is debatable. His performance as a whole in RotS is fairly impressive though, and the case could be made for Anakin's skill to rival Windu's. Would I personally formulate that case for the purposes of this thread? No. Honestly, I'm unconvinced that Anakin equaled Mace as a duelist and am also unconvinced that Mace outmatches him. Even establishing that Mace is superior to Skywalker as a swordsman, the OP never specified whether the thread stipulates Anakin before or after his fall. If after, Anakin would be in a rage comparable to that which he experienced against Dooku. If not, then I take no issue with your statement since I am undecided on the subject. However, none of this changes anything about my point. Anakin's greater power in comparison to Mace's could service him well enough to win a minority of matches against him or conceivably level his chances against Mace. Either way, Mace can be killed by Sidious rather quickly without a power amp, and Anakin can at least occupy Mace if all else fails.
About the Jedi driving Dooku on the defensive when they used their preferred forms, you are talking about when they forced Dooku backwards and eventually his own saber back on his own shoulder, right?
I agree with the rest. Anakin is certainly approachable to Windu without the amp, but whether he can match or defeat Windu (I find the latter more unlikely) that is debatable. If Anakin is raging, yes I find it possible for him to defeat Windu but also, Djem So/Strength is effective against Makashi, which was also an element as to how Anakin defeated Dooku. However, Vaapad lacks weakness to Djem So and physical strength, that isn't to say that Djem So and Anakin's strength is useless against Vaapad though.
" Darth Sidious > Yoda, and according to common belief, Palpatine allowed Windu to put him in that vulnerable position so that he could turn Anakin. Otherwise he would have killed Windu as well. So, team Sith should take this. On the other hand, all Yoda needs to do is claim to be Anakin's son and cry out "FATHER, please!" and the Jedi will win. "
Incorrect. Lucas himself has stated that Sidious was going all out in his duel with Mace Windu. Windu was just the better duellist. Either of the Jedi masters would have defeated an Episode III era Anakin easily. Yoda was quite evenly matched with Sidious and Windu, despite not having the same level of force powers, could defeat him in a duel. Yoda and Mace Windu would win.
Both of you are incorrect. Mace Windu got onto the level of Sidious because of an extreme amp by Vaapad. If not, Sidious would have defeated him. Without the amp, Mace Windu could never defeat Sidious and neither could Yoda match Palpatine.
@demifiend said:
@Silver2467: that Yoda, a more skilled duelist than Windu debatable
Not debatable. Yoda is canonically stated to be > to Windu.
@demifiend said:
@Silver man: Yoda failed to defeat Dooku and Sidious in his fights.
Yoda would have defeated Dooku in his fight had Dooku not threatened the fallen Jedi to escape.
Mace only got to the level of Sidious during the duel because of an amp. Without it, Sidious>>>>>Mace Windu.
@demifiend said:
@Silver2467: Canon fact>your take on the matter. Care to name one? And quit saying Yoda is the best at dueling. It's never stated he's the best with a lightsaber, just that he's the most in-tune with the Force.
Never is it stated Mace was the greatest duelist either. Yoda has canonically been stated to be above Windu in the duelling department, and neither is he the most powerful in the Force, Grand Master Luke Skywalker takes that title.
@demifiend said:
@Silver man: that is false both Dooku and Yoda could match him but not beat him.
@Silver2467: Yes, it is true. It has been stated in canon sources that Yoda is more skilled than Windu. And I am getting sick and tired of hearing this myth that Windu can never be defeated. There are better duelists than Windu. and im tired of hearing palpatine lost the battle with mace on purpose. yeah right.....
Both have defeated him.
@demifiend said:
@Silver2467: Which is irrelevant given the fact that Yoda is canonically a more skilled duelist than Windu is, and he failed to defeat Sidious. thats not true, windu was the best duellist en all entire saga, yoda was the best with the force. there's no sith who can beat windu in a fair contest
This is absolutely incorrect and I have no idea where you get this garbled mess from.
1. Windu isn't the best duelist in the entire saga. Yoda>Windu in duelling.
2. Yoda isn't the best in the Force. Luke Skywalker>Yoda.
3. Palpatine could defeat Windu in a fair contest, its actually the other way around, in a fair fight without amps, Windu cannot possibly even match Sidious. He needed and amp to do so.
I could join the discussion... but Silver can testify that I've had my fair share of this topic. That combined with my general laziness is a deadly combo.
I could join the discussion... but Silver can testify that I've had my fair share of this topic. That combined with my general laziness is a deadly combo.
Being that it took Mace all he had to even win the duel, he wins against Sidious in saber but in force using? Not so much, and since Yoda lost his fight before it even began I don't seem him winning at all. Anakin meanwhile....he beat Dooku, who could only be stalemated by Yoda or Mace I am unsure if he would be able to beat Mace seeing as he has Vapaad and shatterpoint but, Vapaad is also a double edged sword. Anakin's rage, could send Mace over the edge into the darkside seeing as in the movie Mace is pretty much on the boarder line crossing over to the darkside when he is about to strike down Sidious, compared to when he entered the chambers.
Sidious pretty much beats all 3 of them in using the force, while Mace beats Sidious in saber dueling. Yoda can't win against Sidious, he could most likely could probably win against Anakin but by ROTS he was one of the top jedi duelists in the whole order. Anakin vs Mace...I'm iffy on that, but Mace probably could win however he might cross over to the darkside at the end of it all because he would be consuming both darkside energies from both Palpatine and Anakin.
Mace "winning" against Sidious was dependent on his achieving a tremendous speed and power amplification, with which he never even beat Palpatine by virtue of being a better duelist; he only stalemated him. That said, Mace would be killed instantly against Sidious without that amp. He is too slow to even see Palpatine move, and his Force power is considerably lower.
Mace "winning" against Sidious was dependent on his achieving a tremendous speed and power amplification, with which he never even beat Palpatine by virtue of being a better duelist; he only stalemated him. That said, Mace would be killed instantly against Sidious without that amp. He is too slow to even see Palpatine move, and his Force power is considerably lower. Palpatine and Anakin still win.
Mace "winning" against Sidious was dependent on his achieving a tremendous speed and power amplification, with which he never even beat Palpatine by virtue of being a better duelist; he only stalemated him. That said, Mace would be killed instantly against Sidious without that amp. He is too slow to even see Palpatine move, and his Force power is considerably lower. Palpatine and Anakin still win.
This is true.
@Wolfrazer said:
Being that it took Mace all he had to even win the duel, he wins against Sidious in saber but in force using? Not so much, and since Yoda lost his fight before it even began I don't seem him winning at all. Anakin meanwhile....he beat Dooku, who could only be stalemated by Yoda or Mace I am unsure if he would be able to beat Mace seeing as he has Vapaad and shatterpoint but, Vapaad is also a double edged sword. Anakin's rage, could send Mace over the edge into the darkside seeing as in the movie Mace is pretty much on the boarder line crossing over to the darkside when he is about to strike down Sidious, compared to when he entered the chambers. Sidious pretty much beats all 3 of them in using the force, while Mace beats Sidious in saber dueling. Yoda can't win against Sidious, he could most likely could probably win against Anakin but by ROTS he was one of the top jedi duelists in the whole order. Anakin vs Mace...I'm iffy on that, but Mace probably could win however he might cross over to the darkside at the end of it all because he would be consuming both darkside energies from both Palpatine and Anakin.
If Mace used all he had he would still be no match for Sidious. He needed an massive amp to match Sidious, otherwise Sidious could just speedblitz. Yoda has beaten Dooku. Vaapad and Shatterpoints is not enough to defeat Sidious. Mace doesn't beat Sidious in a duel at all, without the amp he would just get murdered by Sidious rushing in with a speed above his eye. I don't know what you are talking about consuming Dark Side energies from the other two and that is almost irrelevant. Yoda would obviously win against Anakin.
Mace "winning" against Sidious was dependent on his achieving a tremendous speed and power amplification, with which he never even beat Palpatine by virtue of being a better duelist; he only stalemated him. That said, Mace would be killed instantly against Sidious without that amp. He is too slow to even see Palpatine move, and his Force power is considerably lower. Palpatine and Anakin still win.
This is true.
@Wolfrazer said:
Being that it took Mace all he had to even win the duel, he wins against Sidious in saber but in force using? Not so much, and since Yoda lost his fight before it even began I don't seem him winning at all. Anakin meanwhile....he beat Dooku, who could only be stalemated by Yoda or Mace I am unsure if he would be able to beat Mace seeing as he has Vapaad and shatterpoint but, Vapaad is also a double edged sword. Anakin's rage, could send Mace over the edge into the darkside seeing as in the movie Mace is pretty much on the boarder line crossing over to the darkside when he is about to strike down Sidious, compared to when he entered the chambers. Sidious pretty much beats all 3 of them in using the force, while Mace beats Sidious in saber dueling. Yoda can't win against Sidious, he could most likely could probably win against Anakin but by ROTS he was one of the top jedi duelists in the whole order. Anakin vs Mace...I'm iffy on that, but Mace probably could win however he might cross over to the darkside at the end of it all because he would be consuming both darkside energies from both Palpatine and Anakin.
If Mace used all he had he would still be no match for Sidious. He needed an massive amp to match Sidious, otherwise Sidious could just speedblitz. Yoda has beaten Dooku. Vaapad and Shatterpoints is not enough to defeat Sidious. Mace doesn't beat Sidious in a duel at all, without the amp he would just get murdered by Sidious rushing in with a speed above his eye. I don't know what you are talking about consuming Dark Side energies from the other two and that is almost irrelevant. Yoda would obviously win against Anakin.
GL stated himself, that Mace Windu won the duel against Sidious you can't argue that.
@Wolfrazer: Did I say I did? You obviously didn't even read my post. He won the duel because of a MASSIVE amp, without it he wouldn't have been able to even see Sidious.
@Wolfrazer: Did I say I did? You obviously didn't even read my post. He won the duel because of a MASSIVE amp, without it he wouldn't have been able to even see Sidious.
Ya sorry, mixed up with what I was saying. I read your post though.
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