#151 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus:

LK is a top tier meta-human with GREAT Martial Art skill, trained since he was born practically, easily one of the best martial artists in fiction generally speaking considering who he's defeated and easily top 3 in the MKU period.

That's a very subjective and biased opinion (even if LK trained since he was a toddler, he's still not trained as long as Logan has).

Let's see if I've got this right, you're assuming 1) the MK verse houses among the best hand to handers in all of fiction and 2) as a result, LK being (in your opinion) top 3 in said realm holds a more prestigious martial hold than a top 3 martial master would at Marvel? And you're basing a lot of this on the hyperbole comment that states; "Goro was undefeated in Mortal Combat for 500 years" as though we're all suppose to "oh and aw"? Jeez, I'll flip through a recent Wolverine read where a far from 100% Logan (a portion of his martial training under Master Po had been lost, devoured by Dr. Rot's tampering) defeated an undead Mystic Kung Fu Martial Master called "Murderous Lion" who was likewise supposed to be "undefeated" throughout centuries of time. Using skill and all kinds of 'mystical' powers to take out Logan ... and yet Wolverine still fed him his teeth. And again, that's just one recent read. But just saying this "Murderous Lion" was undefeated, or such a great martial legend, is absolutely meaningless unless his conquests are fleshed out through feats. So Wolverine defeating him doesn't mean much at all as Murderous Lion's infamy remains hyperbole.

I call foul to your not so subtle, unproven and highly subjective, suggestions there. I've sifted through what's been said and shown of Goro herein and remain unimpressed - and for what it's worth, I played the crap out of the original Mortal Combat and while not an expert, am at least cursorily familiar with the lore and core material. I'm not saying he's a push over, or couldn't score a few wins as Wolverine can be KO'd and taken out. Just not for a majority win.

But at this point, I don't think this is the issue we disagree with most. I take exception to some of your blanket comments that you pawn off as 'fact' yet reek of highly subjective fan wankery or are flat out not true. Take this comment for example;

Wolverine is not considered top 3 in MU, not even close.

While I might shy away from seeing him top 3 in Marvel, I wouldn't completely discount the possibility. I do take exception to the "not even close" portion of your comment. If you know so much about the martial masters in Marvel and Wolverine's standing amongst them, where pray tell do you place him and who do you rate above him? Black Panther? Who he had pinned and at his mercy before BP was saved via distraction (read: plot)? Or maybe Iron Fist, who Wolverine got the better of in a sparring session in the pages of New Avengers? Perhaps Captain America, who Wolverine took down via aneurism / pressure point in Origins? The aforementioned Shang Chi who Logan walloped in two panels? Who's above Wolverine? Daredevil? Elektra? Please enlighten.

#152 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii:

Well, thanks for the info, but it doesn't change my feelings. IMO, Wolverine is Marvel's golden boy. I like him all right as a character, but a lot of the time it seems that they give him far too much plot immunity and favoritism to be believable (I know, I know. Comic book and believability don't really go together). It's an all too common occurrence amongst all the more popular characters. Which is probably why I tend to favor the lesser known characters.

Fair enough. Everyone is most certainly entitled to their opinion!

Though, I'd rank Wolverine below Spider-Man insofar as Marvel's "Golden Boy" is concerned. ;P

#153 Posted by DWrathborne (403 posts) - - Show Bio

@dwrathborne said:

@super_soldierxii:

Well, thanks for the info, but it doesn't change my feelings. IMO, Wolverine is Marvel's golden boy. I like him all right as a character, but a lot of the time it seems that they give him far too much plot immunity and favoritism to be believable (I know, I know. Comic book and believability don't really go together). It's an all too common occurrence amongst all the more popular characters. Which is probably why I tend to favor the lesser known characters.

Fair enough. Everyone is most certainly entitled to their opinion!

Though, I'd rank Wolverine below Spider-Man insofar as Marvel's "Golden Boy" is concerned. ;P

Depends on where you do the poll I guess. ;)

#154 Posted by Enzeru--defunct (2969 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine is not considered top 3 in MU, not even close.

While I might shy away from seeing him top 3 in Marvel, I wouldn't completely discount the possibility. I do take exception to the "not even close" portion of your comment. [...] Who's above Wolverine? Daredevil? Elektra? Please enlighten.

Gamora, Champion of the Universe, Gorgon, Mantis, Karnak, Shang-Chi, Black Panther, Mr X and I would say even few of the people you count out.

With that being said: Wolverine defeats Liu Kang. LK might have the versatility advantage, but he would go down eventually, because Wolverine is just so durable.

#155 Posted by nick_hero22 (8318 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: Goro wouldn't get any wins on Wolverine at all; Goro has nothing as far as feats are concerned outside of his ambiguous tenure as champion of Mortal Kombat which was held once every generation, and the characters he fought were no-named fodder outside of the Great Kung Lao, who defeated the Shang Tsung, who is a horrendous fighter by MK standards. I wouldn't be surprised if Wolverine is capable of one-shotting Goro.

#156 Posted by nick_hero22 (8318 posts) - - Show Bio

Here we have Ed Boon in an interview stating that Scorpion who would thrash Goro would be beaten by Batman in a straight up fight.

Loading Video...

#157 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

@enzeru said:
@super_soldierxii said:

Wolverine is not considered top 3 in MU, not even close.

While I might shy away from seeing him top 3 in Marvel, I wouldn't completely discount the possibility. I do take exception to the "not even close" portion of your comment. [...] Who's above Wolverine? Daredevil? Elektra? Please enlighten.

Gamora, Champion of the Universe, Gorgon, Mantis, Karnak, Shang-Chi, Black Panther, Mr X and I would say even few of the people you count out.

With that being said: Wolverine defeats Liu Kang. LK might have the versatility advantage, but he would go down eventually, because Wolverine is just so durable.

You're including cosmics now are ya? Champion of the Universe? He'd win more due to power levels than anything else. As far as pure skill is concerned, heck, didn't She-Hulk beat him down?

Funny thing with Gamora, Wolverine took her out too ... and this despite her Class 100 ranking. Her skill remains in the realm of hyperbole more so than anything else as well. She too "might" win, but again, due to power-set more than skill IMHO.

Mister X is a Lol. Yeah, I know his first appearance was to make a big "splash" ... he did indeed. Then he sunk. Fast. Last they met, Logan kicked his arse once his power to map onto brainwaves was neutralized via berserker rage.(or some such hogwash). Splash of realism, the bloke should have broken a hand on Logan's metal skull. Even Scarlet Spider (a 20 tonner) commented recently on having nearly broken his punching Logan in the face.

Black Panther is a maybe ... though he was not looking so sharp in their one encounter. I am on the fence with that one. On skill alone ... I think it's a close call.

Shang-Chi is a no. C'mon ... haven't you been paying attention?

Gorgon is an obvious yes. The only obvious yes you posted. Due to power as much as skill. Though he too seems to suffer of late from being tossed to and fro from writer to writer. Last I read of him, DD knocked him cold with a kick to the head. Silliness.

#158 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: Goro wouldn't get any wins on Wolverine at all; Goro has nothing as far as feats are concerned outside of his ambiguous tenure as champion of Mortal Kombat which was held once every generation, and the characters he fought were no-named fodder outside of the Great Kung Lao, who defeated the Shang Tsung, who is a horrendous fighter by MK standards. I wouldn't be surprised if Wolverine is capable of one-shotting Goro.

Maybe. Though Wolverine's inconsistency works against him here. While they are indeed "low end" showings, Wolverine can be KO'd by someone of Goro's demonstrable strength levels based on said 'low end' showings. I don't like them, nor can I deny they're there nonetheless. Not inconceivable Goro could KO Wolverine once or twice on ten outings.

#159 Posted by nick_hero22 (8318 posts) - - Show Bio

@nick_hero22 said:

@super_soldierxii: Goro wouldn't get any wins on Wolverine at all; Goro has nothing as far as feats are concerned outside of his ambiguous tenure as champion of Mortal Kombat which was held once every generation, and the characters he fought were no-named fodder outside of the Great Kung Lao, who defeated the Shang Tsung, who is a horrendous fighter by MK standards. I wouldn't be surprised if Wolverine is capable of one-shotting Goro.

Maybe. Though Wolverine's inconsistency works against him here. While they are indeed "low end" showings, Wolverine can be KO'd by someone of Goro's demonstrable strength levels based on said 'low end' showings. I don't like them, nor can I deny they're there nonetheless. Not inconceivable Goro could KO Wolverine once or twice on ten outings.

I serious doubt it, humans with standard physiology like Liu Kang had no trouble tanking multiple hits from Sheeva (A Shokan) like they weren't nothing in a brawl. That car smashing feat is from the comic series which is non-canon, even Vaeternus admitted this on the previous page.

#160 Posted by onilordasmodeus (2861 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus likes to suggest otherwise. What does he have to prove otherwise? A whole bunch of "nothing" showings, flawed logic and personal opinion, that dismiss the above delineated conclusions as though he's somehow proving a point.

As to the rest, disagreeing with you on this sits just dandy with me.

I like how I've "proven nothing," and how you've seemingly proven everything, yet there is nothing concrete that you can point to to prove anything you argue.

"Flawed logic"?

It is flawed logic to assume something is unbreakable when the evidence doesn't support you just because it hasn't been broken. If we follow your logic we can assume that Catwoman's toes are unbreakable just because they have never been broken, or...

...that MK3 Jax (yes, another mortal Kombat character), that his arms are completely and utterly indestructible just because they have never been broken. (Though according to the pic above, Jax's implants are stronger than Logan's ligaments just because it says so.)

However you look at it, in the end it isn't me who is assuming, it is you, and until you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that indeed you are right (just find something say says it), then, and only then, can you say you are right.

TL;DR

The arguments and scans you've posted don't support your theories...and that is just fact. "Skeletal material" (as your central scan states explicitly) is defined as bone by science, ligaments are not defined to be bone by science. You are trying to overlap them.

#161 Edited by Vaeternus (9558 posts) - - Show Bio

@nick_hero22: Now I'm convinced you're misunderstanding something I'm saying or just have VERY selective reading...

Did you NOT read the part about me saying "that's not even my entire collection?" lol I already proved I own more then you, you have to DL digital because you're obviously too lazy to go out and buy it like most people do and/or just so you can say "I read comics" either way, yes I'm an avid comic book reader and based off of your little collection which consists mostly of Batman then anything else I'd say a much more versatile reader then yourself as well. Notice my New 52 consists of Earth 2, JL, JLA, JLD, Superman/Batman, Superman, Superman Unchained, Every issue of Trinity War thus far, Earth One Superman, Earth One Batman, you have nothing on me...

Also, apparently you have trouble counting? Who said I had a total of 30 comics? That post I posted has 39 alone in total...I'm thinking you didn't even click the images I posted, since that total is 39(that I posted today) NOT counting the rest of my huge collection....OMG, dude they're in plastic SLIP covers to protect them...wow lol. Do you want me to post the plastic pack I have too for you? Cause you know when you buy comics, it's logical to oh I don't know protect them from dust? Oh wait, you wouldn't know that since your "comics" are all digital, my fault....

I'm more then willing to be my total collection surpasses yours, you posted the same thing as last time unlike me where in that old video that was only UP to that point in time which was how many months ago? Now you figure you add about 50 to that counting my other comics I follow...if anything you're the "casual" reader and I'm more serious since you dl some digitals, where as I go to the shop and buy each series I follow because I enjoy them that much. As for Scorpion taking out Goro, of course Scorpion is one of the more powerful, relentless MK characters not to mention has more powers then Goro does....besides while it wasn't canon, we already saw Batman defeat Scorpion, he didn't defeat Sub-Zero however. Sub-Zero has defeated both Batman and Scorpion(the younger one, not the older one)

For the record, LK isn't a normal human with normal physiology...the guy punched a hole through someone's chest...nothing normal about that, if anything that's pure meta-human/super human strength. A fact people tend to ignore about him for whatever reason, he's not just a great fighter, possesses chi powers but apparently is very, very strong. A lot stronger then a normal human for sure.

@super_soldierxii said:

@vaeternus said:

@nick_hero22, since you asked here's my New 52 collection thus far....total of 37 which is one more then your New 52 collection, 39 if you count Earth One Superman and Batman. Keep in mind that's not even my entire collection, I left out anthologies, other series from image, Marvel, JL Classified from long before New 52 etc. Anymore questions?

@onilordasmodeus said:

@super_soldierxii said:

I realize it was posted over 3 months ago, but I cannot help but lol at the poster above who stated Goro wins by grappling with a mutant who has six twelve inch blades protruding from his hands. And then stating Goro would tear Wolverine apart ... when his entire infrastructure is unbreakable. Hulk has tried and failed ... how will Goro succeed? Goro gets close enough to grapple, he gets skewered and goes down hard. Like wrestling a dude with blades for hands. Try it, see how well that works out for ya.

Are you still trying to hold up that Wolverines ligaments are unbreakable? Didn't me and you go around this issue once before...

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/scorpion-mk-vs-wolverine-1450762/?page=2

Exactly, beat me to it...for one Bone Logan was shown to be indeed BREAKABLE. The only reason he's durable as hell is due to his ability to heal constantly and have adamantium injected within his entire body. That doesn't mean he can't be defeated. This is something some people don't seem to get, they think he'll just slice Goro and that's it...because Goro will totally just stand there and hasn't shown to have greater power then Wolverine...not at all lol.

To add to that @ super soldier, there is no "horse S#%&" only facts concerning Goro and Logan(no need to get upset and hope you're not). That's just my point, it seems you're quick to dismiss Goro's feats, again perhaps you skipped over the oh I don't know 500 years STRAIGHT of owning the MK title defeating Earthrealm's best warriors over centuries? If I may, when has Logan did remotely that in MU which he surely has not. All he did was go to Japan, train a little which made him a better fighter, meditate etc. Big deal, like I said the only reason he's resistant half the time is because of his healing ability. The Shokan's/Goro are born to fight practically, born warriors if you will. They have their own honor just different being not human(half human/half dragon) race.

Let's take another look here for a second concerning a general scenario if I may.....let's take away Logan's healing ability and Goro's magic(therefore both having a disadvantage). So therefore it's a fight of pure H2H Mortal Kombat. You really believe "Wolverine will whip the hell out of Goro" in that fight? I just don't see that.Liu Kang beat him yes, but he also beat Shang Tsung, Shao Kahn and it took 500 years for a human victor to overcome Goro lol. LK is a top tier meta-human with GREAT Martial Art skill, trained since he was born practically, easily one of the best martial artists in fiction generally speaking considering who he's defeated and easily top 3 in the MKU period. Wolverine is not considered top 3 in MU, not even close. I'm not saying he "can't fight" I just don't feel he's a known character for his "martial arts" ability. All I'm saying.

Ok that's fine, I just wanted to address your assumptions thinking I was a "kid" when clearly I'm not for one, I've been around since before the original MK so definitely not a kid lol..it's also one reason why I'm familiar about it besides @onilordasmodeus and a few others clearly majority on here don't know much about gaming characters from what I can tell much less MK series, it's so obvious(not saying you per-se but just a general observation). But hey I can't fault them too much given that it's a comic site. Also if you read my initial post as I've told nick, I NEVER said Wolverine or Goro wins. I said it depends on the scenario and rules honestly.

Wolverine obviously is durable and touch, that being said Goro is one strong guy and not to be taken lightly either. The experience factor I can see being overrated at times, I just feel centuries is a while to learn from. All I'm saying.

That being said, I can respectfully agree to disagree with you if you wish. I don't see this fight as a "stomp" in either direction like some folks here think.

Beat you to what??

Bone Wolverine?? Who the heck is talking about "Bone" Wolverine? OP makes no mention of "Bone" Wolverine. Discussion has nothing to do with bone Wolverine. The dude is trying to argue himself purple again ... stating that Wolverine can be 'ripped' apart, when there are far more scans and evidence pointing toward that 'not' being the case. Hulk has tried and failed, as has Bhaal. Goro ain't tearing Wolverine apart.

Additionally, on numerous occasions (once in an early X-Men annual, again with Nitro and most recently in AoU to name a few off the top of my head) it's been shown that Wolverine's skeleton remains completely intact when he's taken damage that's reduced him to such. It was mentioned his skeletal structure is bonded on a molecular level with adamantium, his mutant physiology and healing factor creating a new compound called "beta" adamantium which prevents the metal from inhibiting his bones natural functions. This, coupled with the fact he does not get blown apart in explosions, cannot be torn apart by one of Marvel's strongest (i.e. Hulk) and as his skeleton remains completely intact when he takes damage that leaves only bone, the conclusion is his connective tissue is likewise strengthened by molecular bonding with the indestructible metal.

@onilordasmodeus likes to suggest otherwise. What does he have to prove otherwise? A whole bunch of "nothing" showings, flawed logic and personal opinion, that dismiss the above delineated conclusions as though he's somehow proving a point.

As to the rest, disagreeing with you on this sits just dandy with me.

I was referring to the point of Logan not being "unbreakable" when I addressed @onilordasmodeus's post. My point being Wolverine can die on a technical level. I was just referring to Bone Logan concerning something else, since someone said "Adamantium or no adamantium, Wolverine stomps" I very much disagree with that comment(I forgot who said it) that's all.

I have a bunch of Wolverine issues via an anthology but I don't recall him being ripped apart, maybe he's saying Wolverine can potentially be ripped apart? There was that one story vs. I think World Breaker Hulk who literally ripped Wolverine apart but I don't own that strip, wasn't that an alternate universe or something? I will not quote it since I'm not entirey sure I just remember Hulk picking up and ripping Logan in half literally. I never said though Goro will rip him apart, I do think Goro outclasses him in physical strength though. But you sound familiar concerning that story so I will take your word for it. I just remember a picture of Hulk ripping Wolverine in half(how he could have survived that I don't know lol) but perhaps you can post the scan or I can find it the one I'm referring to.

As for Wolverine being top 3 in his universe, while I still feel the same he'd be able to dish it out due to his healing ability but I was really focusing more so on his pure fighting ability rather then overall ability and durabilty.

You have to realize a gaming series that doesn't have comics and hundreds of panels is harder to judge then a comic book which has a better source material, that being said they have given us enough to judge via Goro's bio, his past, who he's defeated one of them being the great original Kung Lao who was considered one of Earthrealm's best fighters ever...so that is a good feat honestly. He not only defeated him though but killed him.

As for my opinion being biased I disagree there, I feel I'm not being anymore or less then anyone else in this topic. Liu Kang is a very good martial artist and very strong, in fact super human strength punching holes through people's chests aside from defeating both Goro and Shang Tsung in Mortal Kombat. I really believe he can go toe to toe with anyone else who 's a good h2h fighter in comics or fiction really. Now, am I saying he's "the most powerful" hardly but again speaking strickly from H2H perspective here, the rest is actually fact though the Shaolin Monks were trained from birth practically their entire life as a monk via the White Lotus Society(who Liu Kang and Kung Lao represent in Earthrealm) LK being recognized and factually the best fighter within the first two MK sagas isn't hyperbole, but fact. Now, as I said in all of fiction I said I believed he's ONE of the best martial artists, comics you have to know by now is more about "powers" then fighting, same in anime like DBZ. Chi power levels are obviously varied, interpreted differently. Not to diss on Wolverine and believe me I like the character, while I prefer DC I actually find Wolverine interesting along with Spiderman and his villians. Thing is from what I've read on Wolverine, most of his feats are due to his relentlessness combined with his healing abilities. He's a very feral, aggressive character. This does not make him a "great H2H" fighter however, just durable and persistent.

Also I just want to point out that it sounds like you're slightly contradicting your previous post concerning experience, allow me to elaborate while LK has trained since birth and isn't as old as Wolverine, that same very experience is what I'm referring concerning Goro who is far older and more experienced then both Logan and LK, yet LK beat him(only too 500 years worth of Earthrealm warriors) but still non the less. You just told me experience, age etc is overrated earlier now with Wolverine and LK, you're saying that makes a difference? If anything LK would be greater against Wolverine then Goro being as how Goro got defeated by LK.

So my point being, experience should be considered but isn't everything(you also said this when you mentioned Thor earlier). I'd wager as far as pure H2H LK can hold his own if not defeat Wolverine, obviously the adamantium is the game changer. Plus that's why I had mentioned, LK is factually one of the best MK fighters in MKU where as Wolverine is not. He's not bad but he's not the best or let's just say one of the best like say Shang Chi, Iron Fist, Captain A, DD etc, etc are in MU. Wolverine is as someone else mentioned one of the faces of Marvel so he has a lot of votes based on popularity alone.

While I don't feel I'm biased, just more educated on MK here then most I have said I felt the same way concerning people who automatically feel "Wolverine stomps Goro" without actually examning what Goro can do here..

There was also I believe another story concerning Wolverine where Magneto ripped out his endooskeleton adamantium and another arch where someone literally burned all of Wolverine's flesh off yet his adamantium body and claws remained. But sure, I'm glad you're ok with respecting an opposing perspective and agreeing to disagree. For some reason when I ask that some people go nuts on me and insist on fighting(why I don't know) but I'm sure you know what I mean if you've been on here a while now.

Sidenote, Wolverine to defeat cosmic is obviously PIS, in H2H Liu kang would beat Logan. The only reason or way Logan would win is due to him constantly healing, unless Liu Kang burns his brain literally via his Chi abilities. Doubt Logan would heal from that, he'd be brain dead.

#162 Posted by DWrathborne (403 posts) - - Show Bio

Here we have Ed Boon in an interview stating that Scorpion who would thrash Goro would be beaten by Batman in a straight up fight.

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Ed picks Batman because and he doesn't want to seem arrogant in picking a character he created to win. He states as much. And he doesn't mention Goro or Wolverine at all, which makes this completely pointless to the topic.

#163 Edited by nick_hero22 (8318 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii said:

@onilordasmodeus likes to suggest otherwise. What does he have to prove otherwise? A whole bunch of "nothing" showings, flawed logic and personal opinion, that dismiss the above delineated conclusions as though he's somehow proving a point.

As to the rest, disagreeing with you on this sits just dandy with me.

I like how I've "proven nothing," and how you've seemingly proven everything, yet there is nothing concrete that you can point to to prove anything you argue.

"Flawed logic"?

It is flawed logic to assume something is unbreakable when the evidence doesn't support you just because it hasn't been broken. If we follow your logic we can assume that Catwoman's toes are unbreakable just because they have never been broken, or...

...that MK3 Jax (yes, another mortal Kombat character), that his arms are completely and utterly indestructible just because they have never been broken. (Though according to the pic above, Jax's implants are stronger than Logan's ligaments just because it says so.)

However you look at it, in the end it isn't me who is assuming, it is you, and until you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that indeed you are right (just find something say says it), then, and only then, can you say you are right.

TL;DR

The arguments and scans you've posted don't support your theories...and that is just fact. "Skeletal material" (as your central scan states explicitly) is defined as bone by science, ligaments are not defined to be bone by science. You are trying to overlap them.

Why are you using a non-canon bio?

Loading Video...

#165 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

I like how I've "proven nothing," and how you've seemingly proven everything, yet there is nothing concrete that you can point to to prove anything you argue.

What the "f" do you mean there's nothing concrete? Are you for real? To combat extremely stubborn, irrational linear thinkers like yourself on the Vine, I will construct a very simple true or false questionnaire based on all the the concrete comic book facts I've shown to prove my point versus the absolute nothingyou've shown to contradict;

1. Adamantium is billed as 'unbreakable' in Marvel 616 canon. True or false?

2. Wolverine's "skeletal materials" are bonded at the molecular level with adamantium and Hulk, Marvel's incarnation of brute, physical strength, couldn't tear 616 Wolverine apart. True or false?

3. Bhaal, a 70 tonner, likewise couldn't tear Wolverine apart. True or false?

4. Skeletal "materials" do not remain intact as one cohesive unit when all flesh, organs, ligaments (etc.) are completely stripped away. True or false?

5. There exist numerous scenarios wherein Logan's skeletal "materials" have been shown to remain completely intact after all fleshly (and etc.) components had been stripped away. True or false?

6. The one most plausible reason for consistent showings as proven existent between points two through four, would be to say that Wolverine's connective tissue is likewise reinforced on a molecular level by what was defined as "beta" adamantium. True or false? If you say false, the burden to supplant a more plausible reason why Hulk (for example) cannot tear him apart rests with you. If you cannot supply a more reasonable reason, then you are being, in a word, "unreasonable".

And it really doesn't matter what "skeletal material" refers to via your "Google" definition. You're hanging to a useless lifeline in trying to refute what you cannot.

"Flawed logic"?

Yes. Extremely. Actually, more akin to non-existent. Banging ones head against a wall is less futile than arguing a point with you.

It is flawed logic to assume something is unbreakable when the evidence doesn't support you just because it hasn't been broken. If we follow your logic we can assume that Catwoman's toes are unbreakable just because they have never been broken, or...

It's very damned flawed to assume you've made a counter argument to refute a series of facts (see above) and events that go far farther to prove you wrong - when what you've stated to the contrary is a whole lot of nothing.

And no, it's not "just because it hasn't been broken" (damn man, are you for real?). It's because he hasn't been torn apart or "broken" despite the likes of Hulk trying to. Get it? If Hulk jumped down and yanked on Catwoman's toe, and it didn't pop off? Damn straight I'd start to think it were unbreakable. Can't believe the absurd examples you proffer as though you're actually saying something of worth.

You are a real piece of work. You exemplify why I avoid this site more and more. I really wish you would just go away ... but I won't pretend to be able to ignore you, or that I will ignore your responses, because I cannot let complete and utterly silly, unsound comments go answered.

However you look at it, in the end it isn't me who is assuming, it is you, and until you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that indeed you are right (just find something say says it), then, and only then, can you say you are right.

Nah. Above I just took a fairly complete "look at it" thank you very much and the conclusions I made remain the same. You're completely out of your mind with regards this topic. I don't have to prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt and can scarcely believe you think so. Given evidence delineated, it stands far more to reason Wolverine cannot be "torn apart" by most physical forces that exist on 616 earth (outside of powers wielded by Magneto or some such).

#166 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

@nick_hero22 said:

@vaeternus said:

@nick_hero22: Now I'm convinced you have reading issues or VERY selective reading...

Did you NOT read the part about me saying "that's not even my entire collection?" lol I already proved I own more then you, you have to DL digital because you're obviously too lazy to go out and buy it like most people do and/or just so you can say "I read comics" either way, yes I'm an avid comic book reader and based off of your little collection which consists mostly of Batman then anything else I'd say a much more versatile reader then yourself as well. Notice my New 52 consists of Earth 2, JL, JLA, JLD, Superman/Batman, Superman, Superman Unchained, Every issue of Trinity War thus far, Earth One Superman, Earth One Batman, you have nothing on me...

Also, apparently you have trouble counting? Who said I had a total of 30 comics? That post I posted has 39 alone in total...I'm thinking you didn't even click the images I posted, since that total is 39(that I posted today) NOT counting the rest of my huge collection....OMG, dude they're in plastic SLIP covers to protect them...wow lol. Do you want me to post the plastic pack I have too for you? Cause you know when you buy comics, it's logical to oh I don't know protect them from dust? Oh wait, you wouldn't know that since your "comics" are all digital, my fault....

I'm more then willing to be my total collection surpasses yours, you posted the same thing as last time unlike me where in that old video that was only UP to that point in time which was how many months ago? Now you figure you add about 50 to that counting my other comics I follow...if anything you're the "casual" reader and I'm more serious since you dl some digitals, where as I go to the shop and buy each series I follow because I enjoy them that much.

@super_soldierxii said:

@vaeternus said:

@nick_hero22, since you asked here's my New 52 collection thus far....total of 37 which is one more then your New 52 collection, 39 if you count Earth One Superman and Batman. Keep in mind that's not even my entire collection, I left out anthologies, other series from image, Marvel, JL Classified from long before New 52 etc. Anymore questions?

@onilordasmodeus said:

@super_soldierxii said:

I realize it was posted over 3 months ago, but I cannot help but lol at the poster above who stated Goro wins by grappling with a mutant who has six twelve inch blades protruding from his hands. And then stating Goro would tear Wolverine apart ... when his entire infrastructure is unbreakable. Hulk has tried and failed ... how will Goro succeed? Goro gets close enough to grapple, he gets skewered and goes down hard. Like wrestling a dude with blades for hands. Try it, see how well that works out for ya.

Are you still trying to hold up that Wolverines ligaments are unbreakable? Didn't me and you go around this issue once before...

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/scorpion-mk-vs-wolverine-1450762/?page=2

Exactly, beat me to it...for one Bone Logan was shown to be indeed BREAKABLE. The only reason he's durable as hell is due to his ability to heal constantly and have adamantium injected within his entire body. That doesn't mean he can't be defeated. This is something some people don't seem to get, they think he'll just slice Goro and that's it...because Goro will totally just stand there and hasn't shown to have greater power then Wolverine...not at all lol.

To add to that @ super soldier, there is no "horse S#%&" only facts concerning Goro and Logan(no need to get upset and hope you're not). That's just my point, it seems you're quick to dismiss Goro's feats, again perhaps you skipped over the oh I don't know 500 years STRAIGHT of owning the MK title defeating Earthrealm's best warriors over centuries? If I may, when has Logan did remotely that in MU which he surely has not. All he did was go to Japan, train a little which made him a better fighter, meditate etc. Big deal, like I said the only reason he's resistant half the time is because of his healing ability. The Shokan's/Goro are born to fight practically, born warriors if you will. They have their own honor just different being not human(half human/half dragon) race.

Let's take another look here for a second concerning a general scenario if I may.....let's take away Logan's healing ability and Goro's magic(therefore both having a disadvantage). So therefore it's a fight of pure H2H Mortal Kombat. You really believe "Wolverine will whip the hell out of Goro" in that fight? I just don't see that.Liu Kang beat him yes, but he also beat Shang Tsung, Shao Kahn and it took 500 years for a human victor to overcome Goro lol. LK is a top tier meta-human with GREAT Martial Art skill, trained since he was born practically, easily one of the best martial artists in fiction generally speaking considering who he's defeated and easily top 3 in the MKU period. Wolverine is not considered top 3 in MU, not even close. I'm not saying he "can't fight" I just don't feel he's a known character for his "martial arts" ability. All I'm saying.

Ok that's fine, I just wanted to address your assumptions thinking I was a "kid" when clearly I'm not for one, I've been around since before the original MK so definitely not a kid lol..it's also one reason why I'm familiar about it besides @onilordasmodeus and a few others clearly majority on here don't know much about gaming characters from what I can tell much less MK series, it's so obvious(not saying you per-se but just a general observation). But hey I can't fault them too much given that it's a comic site. Also if you read my initial post as I've told nick, I NEVER said Wolverine or Goro wins. I said it depends on the scenario and rules honestly.

Wolverine obviously is durable and touch, that being said Goro is one strong guy and not to be taken lightly either. The experience factor I can see being overrated at times, I just feel centuries is a while to learn from. All I'm saying.

That being said, I can respectfully agree to disagree with you if you wish. I don't see this fight as a "stomp" in either direction like some folks here think.

Beat you to what??

Bone Wolverine?? Who the heck is talking about "Bone" Wolverine? OP makes no mention of "Bone" Wolverine. Discussion has nothing to do with bone Wolverine. The dude is trying to argue himself purple again ... stating that Wolverine can be 'ripped' apart, when there are far more scans and evidence pointing toward that 'not' being the case. Hulk has tried and failed, as has Bhaal. Goro ain't tearing Wolverine apart.

Additionally, on numerous occasions (once in an early X-Men annual, again with Nitro and most recently in AoU to name a few off the top of my head) it's been shown that Wolverine's skeleton remains completely intact when he's taken damage that's reduced him to such. It was mentioned his skeletal structure is bonded on a molecular level with adamantium, his mutant physiology and healing factor creating a new compound called "beta" adamantium which prevents the metal from inhibiting his bones natural functions. This, coupled with the fact he does not get blown apart in explosions, cannot be torn apart by one of Marvel's strongest (i.e. Hulk) and as his skeleton remains completely intact when he takes damage that leaves only bone, the conclusion is his connective tissue is likewise strengthened by molecular bonding with the indestructible metal.

@onilordasmodeus likes to suggest otherwise. What does he have to prove otherwise? A whole bunch of "nothing" showings, flawed logic and personal opinion, that dismiss the above delineated conclusions as though he's somehow proving a point.

As to the rest, disagreeing with you on this sits just dandy with me.

I was referring to the point of Logan not being "unbreakable" when I addressed @onilordasmodeus's post. My point being Wolverine can die on a technical level. I was just referring to Bone Logan concerning something else, since someone said "Adamantium or no adamantium, Wolverine stomps" I very much disagree with that comment(I forgot who said it) that's all.

I have a bunch of Wolverine issues via an anthology but I don't recall him being ripped apart, maybe he's saying Wolverine can potentially be ripped apart? There was that one story vs. I think World Breaker Hulk who literally ripped Wolverine apart but I don't own that strip, wasn't that an alternate universe or something? I will not quote it since I'm not entirey sure I just remember Hulk picking up and ripping Logan in half literally. I never said though Goro will rip him apart, I do think Goro outclasses him in physical strength though. But you sound familiar concerning that story so I will take your word for it. I just remember a picture of Hulk ripping Wolverine in half(how he could have survived that I don't know lol) but perhaps you can post the scan or I can find it the one I'm referring to.

There was also I believe another story concerning Wolverine where Magneto ripped out his endooskeleton adamantium and another arch where someone literally burned all of Wolverine's flesh off yet his adamantium body and claws remained.

1) Are you stupid or illiterate? I said that every little icon in my library houses in between 10 - 20 issues in them, I'm somewhat caught up on my Batman, Dark Knight, and Detective Comics based off the last time that I bought some comics, and they house close to 20 issues each, so how does that imply you read more comics than me unless you don't have basic mathematical skills.

I also read more ongoing series than you such as Batman, Dark Knight, Red Hood and the Outlaws, Justice League, Aquaman, Action Comics, Superman, Detective Comics, Birds of Prey, Green Lantern, Green Lantern Corps, Green Lantern: New Guardians, Batman and Robin, Suicide Squad, Ultimates, and Wonder Woman. So, please drop the lies and bullshit! You don't even have a fraction of the issues in those ongoing series, you have a couple of issues all over the place from a few NEW 52 series.

2) You claimed that you had around some 30 odd comics; I'm going by what you claimed that you had in another thread. You don't have a huge collection! My collection of Batman, Dark Knight, Detective Comics are probably bigger than your entire comic book collection. Again, I see right through your lies and bullshit! Why is half your comic book collection wrapped up in plastic like a mummy and the other half without plastic packaging?

3) Why do you keep bringing up digital comics, they are comic books nonetheless. Are you jealous or something that you don't have digital comic books at your convenience or something. Do you not think that they aren't comic books or something? I'm not understanding your problem with digital comics, and how in the wholly hell is your illogical vendetta against digital comics even relevant here. I don't care what you think about digital comic books; I didn't ask for your stamp of approval on my comic book collection especially when 3 or 4 of the series in my collection outnumber your entire collection, so you can go somewhere with that crap.

Seriously. What does it matter who reads more comics than whom? Can't believe you're both getting into a hotly contested pissing contest over something so trivial as that. We all read comic books here. Who cares. Let's keep this on topic. Moving on ... suggest you both do the same. If you don't care for my advice, then please do me the extreme pleasure of removing my name from your responses to one another on the matter. Thanks.

#167 Edited by Vaeternus (9558 posts) - - Show Bio

@ nick_hero22,

Right, until you prove it that could be a bunch of bull for all I know but I honestly don't care at this point and you never said that anything housed 10-20 until now. So it is not me that's stupid or illiterate, especially when you keep saying "I have 30 odd comics" over and over like a broken record. Ok, so that's great you have other comics most of which don't even consist of the new 52 much like some of my collection. I'm not lying, you're trying to feed everyone the same bs that "I don't read comics" when clearly I do, and REAL comics no less not lazy digital crap...anyone can dl a comic and say "I read comics" or follow them. And you don't have a fraction of the series I happen to follow no where in there did I see JL, Trinity War, Earth 2 so don't even start. Like a mummy? Obviously you have bad eyesight if you can't tell I put them in slip covers...which again, they exist to PROTECT THE COMICS FROM DUST AND KEEP THEM IN MINT CONDITION!

Can you make a post without insulting someone or cursing? Seriously? Clearly you have much difficulty doing this and further proves you're reaching and getting desperate for an argument. Jealous? lol Hardly. I can easily dl any comic now, but choose to buy it, feel it in my hands and read it like a good old book. I don't take the lazy route. Obviously you have time to feud with people on here several days a week so I highly doubt your "time schedule" is a reason why you DL comics and don't buy them. Most of your follows are Batman, everyone knows Batman by now. And no, I highly doubt your DC comics are bigger then my entire collection but honestly I don't care, my point is I read tons of comics regardless of what "you think" is irrelevant. In fact I already proved you wrong in the video I made which consisted of 40 comics months ago(again not even all of them) Who said I have a vendetta against digital comics? I just said, a true comic book reader will have a GOOD collection of pb comics or still buy them some at least. You have yet to prove you actually PHYSICALLY own any comics, which makes me wonder how much you really read or have. You hardly outnumber me, you wish you do. You're just pissy because I proved you wrong before with the video and now since you claimed "I have no 52 issues" which obviously I proved you WRONG. Deal with it...you don't know jack about what I follow or read, and you don't know much about MK as usual. You really need to stop posting in these topics lying about what's canon and not. Jax's bio from MK3 is still canon as it's the same as MK9's he got metal arms due to an accident, the only difference is in the original timeline they didn't go into detail "how he lost his arms" but in MK9 did. That's merely a different perspective since it was established that he lost his arms in MK2 at some point...

@super_soldierxii: I agree, however nick has known to come at me with ridiculous accusations like "I don't read any comics" then when I prove him wrong with actual images, videos showing my collection he rants and insists how his is bigger then mine etc, etc. He goes off topic and apparently has a potty mouth(as you'll notice)

#168 Edited by nick_hero22 (8318 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii said:

@nick_hero22 said:

@vaeternus said:

@nick_hero22: Now I'm convinced you have reading issues or VERY selective reading...

Did you NOT read the part about me saying "that's not even my entire collection?" lol I already proved I own more then you, you have to DL digital because you're obviously too lazy to go out and buy it like most people do and/or just so you can say "I read comics" either way, yes I'm an avid comic book reader and based off of your little collection which consists mostly of Batman then anything else I'd say a much more versatile reader then yourself as well. Notice my New 52 consists of Earth 2, JL, JLA, JLD, Superman/Batman, Superman, Superman Unchained, Every issue of Trinity War thus far, Earth One Superman, Earth One Batman, you have nothing on me...

Also, apparently you have trouble counting? Who said I had a total of 30 comics? That post I posted has 39 alone in total...I'm thinking you didn't even click the images I posted, since that total is 39(that I posted today) NOT counting the rest of my huge collection....OMG, dude they're in plastic SLIP covers to protect them...wow lol. Do you want me to post the plastic pack I have too for you? Cause you know when you buy comics, it's logical to oh I don't know protect them from dust? Oh wait, you wouldn't know that since your "comics" are all digital, my fault....

I'm more then willing to be my total collection surpasses yours, you posted the same thing as last time unlike me where in that old video that was only UP to that point in time which was how many months ago? Now you figure you add about 50 to that counting my other comics I follow...if anything you're the "casual" reader and I'm more serious since you dl some digitals, where as I go to the shop and buy each series I follow because I enjoy them that much.

@super_soldierxii said:

@vaeternus said:

@nick_hero22, since you asked here's my New 52 collection thus far....total of 37 which is one more then your New 52 collection, 39 if you count Earth One Superman and Batman. Keep in mind that's not even my entire collection, I left out anthologies, other series from image, Marvel, JL Classified from long before New 52 etc. Anymore questions?

@onilordasmodeus said:

@super_soldierxii said:

I realize it was posted over 3 months ago, but I cannot help but lol at the poster above who stated Goro wins by grappling with a mutant who has six twelve inch blades protruding from his hands. And then stating Goro would tear Wolverine apart ... when his entire infrastructure is unbreakable. Hulk has tried and failed ... how will Goro succeed? Goro gets close enough to grapple, he gets skewered and goes down hard. Like wrestling a dude with blades for hands. Try it, see how well that works out for ya.

Are you still trying to hold up that Wolverines ligaments are unbreakable? Didn't me and you go around this issue once before...

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/scorpion-mk-vs-wolverine-1450762/?page=2

Exactly, beat me to it...for one Bone Logan was shown to be indeed BREAKABLE. The only reason he's durable as hell is due to his ability to heal constantly and have adamantium injected within his entire body. That doesn't mean he can't be defeated. This is something some people don't seem to get, they think he'll just slice Goro and that's it...because Goro will totally just stand there and hasn't shown to have greater power then Wolverine...not at all lol.

To add to that @ super soldier, there is no "horse S#%&" only facts concerning Goro and Logan(no need to get upset and hope you're not). That's just my point, it seems you're quick to dismiss Goro's feats, again perhaps you skipped over the oh I don't know 500 years STRAIGHT of owning the MK title defeating Earthrealm's best warriors over centuries? If I may, when has Logan did remotely that in MU which he surely has not. All he did was go to Japan, train a little which made him a better fighter, meditate etc. Big deal, like I said the only reason he's resistant half the time is because of his healing ability. The Shokan's/Goro are born to fight practically, born warriors if you will. They have their own honor just different being not human(half human/half dragon) race.

Let's take another look here for a second concerning a general scenario if I may.....let's take away Logan's healing ability and Goro's magic(therefore both having a disadvantage). So therefore it's a fight of pure H2H Mortal Kombat. You really believe "Wolverine will whip the hell out of Goro" in that fight? I just don't see that.Liu Kang beat him yes, but he also beat Shang Tsung, Shao Kahn and it took 500 years for a human victor to overcome Goro lol. LK is a top tier meta-human with GREAT Martial Art skill, trained since he was born practically, easily one of the best martial artists in fiction generally speaking considering who he's defeated and easily top 3 in the MKU period. Wolverine is not considered top 3 in MU, not even close. I'm not saying he "can't fight" I just don't feel he's a known character for his "martial arts" ability. All I'm saying.

Ok that's fine, I just wanted to address your assumptions thinking I was a "kid" when clearly I'm not for one, I've been around since before the original MK so definitely not a kid lol..it's also one reason why I'm familiar about it besides @onilordasmodeus and a few others clearly majority on here don't know much about gaming characters from what I can tell much less MK series, it's so obvious(not saying you per-se but just a general observation). But hey I can't fault them too much given that it's a comic site. Also if you read my initial post as I've told nick, I NEVER said Wolverine or Goro wins. I said it depends on the scenario and rules honestly.

Wolverine obviously is durable and touch, that being said Goro is one strong guy and not to be taken lightly either. The experience factor I can see being overrated at times, I just feel centuries is a while to learn from. All I'm saying.

That being said, I can respectfully agree to disagree with you if you wish. I don't see this fight as a "stomp" in either direction like some folks here think.

Beat you to what??

Bone Wolverine?? Who the heck is talking about "Bone" Wolverine? OP makes no mention of "Bone" Wolverine. Discussion has nothing to do with bone Wolverine. The dude is trying to argue himself purple again ... stating that Wolverine can be 'ripped' apart, when there are far more scans and evidence pointing toward that 'not' being the case. Hulk has tried and failed, as has Bhaal. Goro ain't tearing Wolverine apart.

Additionally, on numerous occasions (once in an early X-Men annual, again with Nitro and most recently in AoU to name a few off the top of my head) it's been shown that Wolverine's skeleton remains completely intact when he's taken damage that's reduced him to such. It was mentioned his skeletal structure is bonded on a molecular level with adamantium, his mutant physiology and healing factor creating a new compound called "beta" adamantium which prevents the metal from inhibiting his bones natural functions. This, coupled with the fact he does not get blown apart in explosions, cannot be torn apart by one of Marvel's strongest (i.e. Hulk) and as his skeleton remains completely intact when he takes damage that leaves only bone, the conclusion is his connective tissue is likewise strengthened by molecular bonding with the indestructible metal.

@onilordasmodeus likes to suggest otherwise. What does he have to prove otherwise? A whole bunch of "nothing" showings, flawed logic and personal opinion, that dismiss the above delineated conclusions as though he's somehow proving a point.

As to the rest, disagreeing with you on this sits just dandy with me.

I was referring to the point of Logan not being "unbreakable" when I addressed @onilordasmodeus's post. My point being Wolverine can die on a technical level. I was just referring to Bone Logan concerning something else, since someone said "Adamantium or no adamantium, Wolverine stomps" I very much disagree with that comment(I forgot who said it) that's all.

I have a bunch of Wolverine issues via an anthology but I don't recall him being ripped apart, maybe he's saying Wolverine can potentially be ripped apart? There was that one story vs. I think World Breaker Hulk who literally ripped Wolverine apart but I don't own that strip, wasn't that an alternate universe or something? I will not quote it since I'm not entirey sure I just remember Hulk picking up and ripping Logan in half literally. I never said though Goro will rip him apart, I do think Goro outclasses him in physical strength though. But you sound familiar concerning that story so I will take your word for it. I just remember a picture of Hulk ripping Wolverine in half(how he could have survived that I don't know lol) but perhaps you can post the scan or I can find it the one I'm referring to.

There was also I believe another story concerning Wolverine where Magneto ripped out his endooskeleton adamantium and another arch where someone literally burned all of Wolverine's flesh off yet his adamantium body and claws remained.

1) Are you stupid or illiterate? I said that every little icon in my library houses in between 10 - 20 issues in them, I'm somewhat caught up on my Batman, Dark Knight, and Detective Comics based off the last time that I bought some comics, and they house close to 20 issues each, so how does that imply you read more comics than me unless you don't have basic mathematical skills.

I also read more ongoing series than you such as Batman, Dark Knight, Red Hood and the Outlaws, Justice League, Aquaman, Action Comics, Superman, Detective Comics, Birds of Prey, Green Lantern, Green Lantern Corps, Green Lantern: New Guardians, Batman and Robin, Suicide Squad, Ultimates, and Wonder Woman. So, please drop the lies and bullshit! You don't even have a fraction of the issues in those ongoing series, you have a couple of issues all over the place from a few NEW 52 series.

2) You claimed that you had around some 30 odd comics; I'm going by what you claimed that you had in another thread. You don't have a huge collection! My collection of Batman, Dark Knight, Detective Comics are probably bigger than your entire comic book collection. Again, I see right through your lies and bullshit! Why is half your comic book collection wrapped up in plastic like a mummy and the other half without plastic packaging?

3) Why do you keep bringing up digital comics, they are comic books nonetheless. Are you jealous or something that you don't have digital comic books at your convenience or something. Do you not think that they aren't comic books or something? I'm not understanding your problem with digital comics, and how in the wholly hell is your illogical vendetta against digital comics even relevant here. I don't care what you think about digital comic books; I didn't ask for your stamp of approval on my comic book collection especially when 3 or 4 of the series in my collection outnumber your entire collection, so you can go somewhere with that crap.

Seriously. What does it matter who reads more comics than whom? Can't believe you're both getting into a hotly contested pissing contest over something so trivial as that. We all read comic books here. Who cares. Let's keep this on topic. Moving on ... suggest you both do the same. If you don't care for my advice, then please do me the extreme pleasure of removing my name from your responses to one another on the matter. Thanks.

Sorry about that :(

But, he has to be one of the worst users on this site.

#169 Edited by Vaeternus (9558 posts) - - Show Bio

I love that, the guy curses me out and "I'm one of the worse users"? right, Only someone who can't handle being corrected or difference in opinion would honestly say that.

@super_soldierxii: I agree, however he's always comes at me with ridiculous accusations like "I don't read any comics, I don't know anything blah, blah" then when I prove him wrong with actual images, videos showing my collection he rants and insists how his is bigger then mine etc, etc or flat out uses foul language. I enjoy a good debate but once people start cursing, insulting I just have no time for that. I appreciate the responce but I just want you to be fully aware. There are other users in here who can even attest to this but I don't even want to get into that. This topic has pretty much been heard to death at this point, people losing their cool, some folks are for Wolverine, some for Goro. May just be beneficial to kill the topic at this point.

#170 Edited by onilordasmodeus (2861 posts) - - Show Bio

1. Adamantium is billed as 'unbreakable' in Marvel 616 canon. True or false?

2. Wolverine's "skeletal materials" are bonded at the molecular level with adamantium and Hulk, Marvel's incarnation of brute, physical strength, couldn't tear 616 Wolverine apart. True or false?

3. Bhaal, a 70 tonner, likewise couldn't tear Wolverine apart. True or false?

4. Skeletal "materials" do not remain intact as one cohesive unit when all flesh, organs, ligaments (etc.) are completely stripped away. True or false?

5. There exist numerous scenarios wherein Logan's skeletal "materials" have been shown to remain completely intact after all fleshly (and etc.) components had been stripped away. True or false?

6. The one most plausible reason for consistent showings as proven existent between points two through four, would be to say that Wolverine's connective tissue is likewise reinforced on a molecular level by what was defined as "beta" adamantium. True or false? If you say false, the burden to supplant a more plausible reason why Hulk (for example) cannot tear him apart rests with you. If you cannot supply a more reasonable reason, then you are being, in a word, "unreasonable".

We've done this before, but OK...

1) True

2) Wolverine's bones are adamantium - True; Hulk couldn't tear Logan apart...False. Hulk didn't tear Logan apart because Logan escaped...period.

3) False.

Ba'al wasn't trying to tear "Logan" apart, Ba'al really wasn't even trying to kill Logan as he was just trying to get 'some human' out of his way. Bottom line of that encounter is that Ba'al thought Logan was a being of normal human durability, and as such only put the amount of power necessary to kill a normal human into it...Logan is more durable than that (that much is clear), Ba'al underestimated Logan...period.

To prove you Ba'al point, why don't you show me where Ba'al goes around using his "70 ton strength" in everything he does? When you do that then maybe you could build a case that Ba'al put 70 tons worth of power into this one instance. Until then you can only go by what was shown on that one panel, that he underestimate Logan and got kicked in the face.

4) I don't even get this question.

5) False. The Nitro scandidn't show Logan still intact and together, it was the cover art that did...not the same thing. You say you have another scan that shows this? I'd like to see it.

6) I'll ask you, when did the Hulk vs Logan scan say Hulk "couldn't" tear Logan apart? The scan clearly shows that he didn't do it, but it never said that he couldn't. In fact, the scan clearly looks like he was about to until Logan escapes Hulk's grasp by retracting his claws.

Bottom line is you wan't me to prove that 616 Logan can be ripped apart when you and I both know he hasn't been, but all you can provide to show that he "can't" be, are scans that don't say either way. Logan's ligament durability is a logical fallacy at it's best; fact is though, Logan's bones are laced with adamantium...and that is all. You can infer all you want to try to give Logan's ligaments adamantium properties, but there is nothing that says that, therefore you have nothing to prove that theory.

@nick_hero22: The Red Herring.

I might end up regretting this, but why are you trying to bring up something that isn't even relevant? My statement was about MK3 Jax specifically, not MK9 Jax, or Special Forces Jax, I was speakeing about MK3 Jax and his bio specifically, irregardless of whether he is canon or not. Why are you trying to derail the argument?

#171 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus said:"unreasonable".

We've done this before, but OK...

We've done this before. Sure. And both @jashro44 and I shut you down hard on all your flawed hypothesis (cannot use that word enough in dealing with your "notions") which is why I left well enough alone. But like I said, I cannot help but respond to complete absurdity (an admitted weakness) so yeah, here we go again;

2) Wolverine's bones are adamantium - True; Hulk couldn't tear Logan apart...False. Hulk didn't tear Logan apart because Logan escaped...period.

Oh. OK. So some regular dude would have remained intact while Hulk was pulling on both arms. Gotcha. Wolverine was obviously grunting against the strain and Hulk was just merrily holding him in place for three panels because he enjoyed the opportunity it provided to stare wistfully into Logan big brown eyes? I don't care to argue the sky is blue with someone all too interested in taking the "least obvious" route just cuz he can, ignoring all evidence to the contrary cuz it doesn't suit his fancy.

Hulk tried to tear Logan apart (both combatants were straining), couldn't, Wolverine warned him to let him go, Hulk didn't comply, then Wolverine retracted his claws and made him. Hulk was TRYING to tear Logan apart but didn't, THEN Logan escaped is what really happened. Y'see, panels happen in sequence in comics to relay events ... you want to ignore the story telling elements evident in said panels to promote an argument for arguments sake, then realize doing so only really makes you look foolish. Believe what you will. The showing is obvious for all who choose to see the obvious. You just keep right on doing your thang.

3) False. Ba'al wasn't trying to tear "Logan" apart, Ba'al really wasn't even trying to kill Logan as he was just trying to get 'some human' out of his way. Bottom line of that encounter is that Ba'al thought Logan was a being of normal human durability, and as such only put the amount of power necessary to kill a normal human into it...Logan is more durable than that (that much is clear), Ba'al underestimated Logan...period.

Just so we're clear, your use of "period" equals "denial" with a significant splash of silly logic and belligerent stubbornness. What it isn't is a sign of "case closed" which only exists in your strange view of the subject. Now that that's cleared away here's the scan again;

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/80103/2955268-2640175-bondedskeletonlo1.jpg

Here's where you contradict yourself again, and where you need to make up your mind. Ba'al was trying to RIP WOLVERINE APART. He was obviously struggling. Which, for a 70 tonner to struggle indicates he's using significantly more force than would be needed to tear, say, Captain America apart.

And how is this not trying to kill Logan? Only in your selective, and very special world, is this not trying to kill Logan. Now, where's your contradiction you ask? Glad you asked. Even if we want to believe your half baked supposition that Ba'al placed "just enough" force to tear a regular human apart, and that this is why he couldn't tear Logan apart, the fact he could not is an admission on your part that Wolverine cannot be torn apart as easily as a human (which you kinda, sorta admitted in a roundabout way), and that his joints and ligaments do not evidence regular durability. Here's the kicker; the main reason Wolverine's infrastructure is more durable than a regular human's, is due to the adamantium bonded to said infrastructure. You choosing a different answer (oh, his base durability is what prevented a 70 tonner from tearing him apart, not the metal), is extreme grasping to say the least. Again, why do you insist on choosing the least plausible route? To frustrate? To remain in denial?

4) I don't even get this question.

Convenient. Means that a human skeleton does not remain intact without ligaments, joints (etc.) holding it together. True or false. I'll supplant the answer. False. Relevant of course, due to point #5 reiterated below.

5) False. The Nitro scandidn't show Logan still intact and together, it was the cover art that did...not the same thing. You say you have another scan that shows this? I'd like to see it.

You mean true of course. Unless you're arguing a showing that you haven't even read? That's some audacity. But given your treatment of the obvious thus far, wouldn't put it past you.

Logan is flash fried, nothing but the adamantium bits remaining. And they remain intact. Get a nice view of his shoulder joint bottom right.

Here's a showing where Logan is knocked into a vat of lava and climbs his way out. Mostly skeleton. His hand bones/joints and arm remain connected.

And here, in Days of Future Past, a Sentinel flash fries him and what you do see remaining of him is no ordinary skeleton but one that remains, and is obviously, connected.

As for the latest showing, I already gave you a comic and reference number in Age of Ultron #9. There are two pics I can find, but they aren't the clearest;

Here, he's standing on the skeletal remains of his left leg. And all bones remain intact.
Here, you get a clearer view of the leg and foot bones ... and yes, they're intact.
#172 Edited by onilordasmodeus (2861 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii:

Yeah, you guys shut me down hard. Right.

1) Hulk scan: Question, how much time occurs in a single panel? A few minutes? Seconds? Fractions of a second? The Hulk scan shows Logan getting stretched (look again if you don't believe me), and then showed Logan escaping in the final moments just after the close up on Hulk's eyes. You can't dispute that...but I know you'll try.

2) Ba'al scan: I'm contradicting myself? You even saying that I'm contradicting myself proves you don't know the context of the scan you so vehemently defend.

Ba'al didn't know who/what Wolverine was at the time...and that much is clearly stated in Logan's thought bubble. Ba'al was undisputedly trying to rip apart a normal human,which is why it didn't/wouldn't work, since, as we both know, Wolverine is alittle more than a normal human in the durbility department. But with just that little fact still you haven't proven the ultimate point. There is a BIG leap from 'more durable than a normal human' to 'virtually indestructible'.

Regardless, if you are so sure that Ba'al was trying to put Logan apart,

  • Provethat Ba'al knew Logan wasn't some random human, and that he was actively trying to kill Wolverine (the extra durable mutant) specifically at the time.
  • Prove that Ba'al used 70 tons worth of strength to attempt to pull Logan apart (note: not that Ba'al is a 70 tonner), and that even at the peak of his strength he failed to pull Logan apart.

Can you? Was it stated somewhere? Or are you assuming that that was the case based on what you want to believe.

Bottom line is you can't paint the context and the facts of the scan as you want it to be. The given context of that scan says something very different than what you are trying to portray...period.

Lastly, and I find this a little funny, you repost the Nitro scan to say "Logan was still together though all his muscle tissue was burned away," but in those scans (which I have already disputed mind you) muscle tissue, and even eye tissue, are still visible at all times throughout the panels. In the subsequent scans you posted, you show no different as while you are trying to say "Logan's skeleton stays together," you are completely discounting Logan's HF, and the fact that he is still very much alive and regenerating at all times in each one of them.

In the lava scan inparticular, are you actually trying to argue that the lava burned away all his tissue yet he was still together? How is Logan even moving if he doesn't have a brain? Or a heart for that matter? What about a nervous system? All those questions completely fly in the face of the Nitro scan, as when he laid there in that scan he couldn't do anything but see and think until those things grew back.

In the last couple scans, your "new info," are actually going to argue that Logan's foot was reduced to a skeleton? Really?? In what world do you see only bone? In that scan there is muscle all over his leg...albeit a lot of it was missing...but undoubtedly his leg was still together because of his HF and the fact that enough of his leg's muscle was still intact.

The one scan I can give any credence to is the Sentinel scan...but even then things are way off. If that is Logan (which I don't doubt but...) why are his bones more like a T800? That isn't skeleton isn't drawn like a human skeleton as there are no ligaments or human joints in that scan. Just look at the elbow and the forearm; the bones are joined like mechanical hinges...but hey, that is the way the drew him back then, and regardless, since then they have changed/updated his skeletal look completely.

__

Seriously man, the more and more you present scans and arguments, the more and more I see that you give Logan's indestructiblity WAY more credit than it deserves. Logan is a cool character no doubt, but his HF is stupid, and the fact that he can regen while in lava is a serious piece of PIS. Logan not being pulled apart yet in the 616, isn't a testiment to his indestructibility, it can only be attributed to PIS/WIS as it has never been thoughtfully addressed any time it has been encountered in his comics.

I said it before, if the were going to present a reason for Logan's frame being so durable, they should attribute it to his HF more so than anything else. At least then there would be a "real" somewhat established reason.

#173 Posted by jashro44 (30270 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus: I'm only responding to this part. And I also only plan on making one post (we will see if I do).

2) Ba'al scan: I'm contradicting myself? You even saying that I'm contradicting myself proves you don't know the context of the scan you so vehemently defend.

Ba'al didn't know who/what Wolverine was at the time...and that much is clearly stated in Logan's thought bubble. Ba'al was undisputedly trying to rip apart a normal human,which is why it didn't/wouldn't work, since, as we both know, Wolverine is alittle more than a normal human in the durbility department. But with just that little fact still you haven't proven the ultimate point. There is a BIG leap from 'more durable than a normal human' to 'virtually indestructible'.

Regardless, if you are so sure that Ba'al was trying to put Logan apart,

Can you explain why Ba'al wouldn't use his full strength? Why would he not use all of his class 70 strength? The burden of proof is on you. Also wolverine states in the scan he wasn't ripped apart because of adamantium. Not because he is slightly more durable then the average human, he says the adamantium bones are held together.

  • Provethat Ba'al knew Logan wasn't some random human, and that he was actively trying to kill Wolverine (the extra durable mutant) specifically at the time.
  • Prove that Ba'al used 70 tons worth of strength to attempt to pull Logan apart (note: not that Ba'al is a 70 tonner), and that even at the peak of his strength he failed to pull Logan apart.

The burden of proof that Ba'al wasn't trying to kill Logan is on you. We don't have to prove anything. The scan shows him trying to rip wolverine apart. As is the proof that Ba'al wasn't using his full strength.

The fact that Ba'al would make a "{Uhh}" sound is enough to indicate he was putting some muscle into it. He wouldn't be making that noise if he wasn't using anywhere near his full strength. He is clearly straining. Not only that but he says he can't rip wolverine apart. He doesn't say wolverine is harder to rip apart then the average human, he specifically says that he can't rip wolverine apart period. So honestly the sentence alone is enough proof.

Can you? Was it stated somewhere? Or are you assuming that that was the case based on what you want to believe.

Bottom line is you can't paint the context and the facts of the scan as you want it to be. The given context of that scan says something very different than what you are trying to portray...period.

Why do you think Ba'al wouldn't use all his strength on wolverine? What evidence do you have that Ba'al doesn't use his full strength when he rips apart average humans?

We are basing this on Ba'al saying he can't rip wolverine apart and the fact that wolverine states Ba'al can't rip him apart due to adamantium. Honestly I think @super_soldierxii has enough evidence to indicate wolverine can't be ripped apart. I can't really see how the Ba'al scan is debatable. Ba'al says he can't rip him apart and wolverine says the reason is because of adamantium.

#174 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus:

Entire retort was pure nonsense and all your points were already addressed more than adequately. You're just not worth the effort of further debate because you add nothing. Congrats. You're the first bloke I've said that to outright on the Vine. You literally argue just for arguments sake.

Your Ba'al and Hulk argument do deserve a special call out for going out of their way in being especially ridiculous though. Your other counterarguments (if they can be called such) are beyond ludicrous and not worthy of a retort. I leave you to your thankfully wholly subjective denial.

Moving on ...

#175 Edited by onilordasmodeus (2861 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

You and I have gone through this exact same same song and dance in the past, and all the points you bring up now were addressed and explained back then. There is no need to retread old stuff as nothing has changed since then. If you really want my answers to your questions, just re-read what I wrote then:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/scorpion-mk-vs-wolverine-1450762/?page=3

@super_soldierxii:

This is where I accept your concete on this issue. While you say I'm arguing for the sake of arguing, or that I'm the one in denial, both of these claims can be led straight back to the fact that you can't prove the theory of Logan's indestructibilty. That there is doubt.

You can't deny that Hulk was stretching Logan in that scan; you can't deny that Ba'al underestimated Logan's durabilty; and though I know you would do you best to dispute these points, the bottom line is you can't show or point to concrete proof that supports the claims being made.

We can end this debate, that is fine, but know that until this issue is addressed specifically, there will always be doubt, so the argument of it not being a possiblity can only be backed and supported by a certain amount of PIS and WIS...both of which can't fly in a real debate.

#176 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus said:

@jashro44:

You and I have gone through this exact same same song and dance in the past, and all the points you bring up now were addressed and explained back then. There is no need to retread old stuff as nothing has changed since then. If you really want my answers to your questions, just re-read what I wrote then:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/scorpion-mk-vs-wolverine-1450762/?page=3

@super_soldierxii:

This is where I accept your concete on this issue. While you say I'm arguing for the sake of arguing, or that I'm the one in denial, both of these claims can be led straight back to the fact that you can't prove the theory of Logan's indestructibilty. That there is doubt.

You can't deny that Hulk was stretching Logan in that scan; you can't deny that Ba'al underestimated Logan's durabilty; and though I know you would do you best to dispute these points, the bottom line is you can't show or point to concrete proof that supports the claims being made.

We can end this debate, that is fine, but know that until this issue is addressed specifically, there will always be doubt, so the argument of it not being a possiblity can only be backed and supported by a certain amount of PIS and WIS...both of which can't fly in a real debate.

For the record, I concede to nothing you have said.

I feel I am right, and feel you are stubbornly attaching to a conveniently subjective element of "doubt", just to be difficult. The doubt rests with you ... as does the burden of proof. And this last is of the most import. Deny it all you like. It remains obvious for all with a just, and rational perspective of the obvious.

Far more has been shown to highlight Wolverine is unbreakable in all respects. To prove the contrary, you have shown nothing.

#177 Posted by pea55 (382 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine is superior to Goro in every department!!

#178 Posted by leonkarlen123 (8819 posts) - - Show Bio

With claws Wolverine cuts his arms of but without claws there is another story, he is big and strong enough to break his back.

#179 Posted by pea55 (382 posts) - - Show Bio

@leonkarlen123: First off, I doubt that Goro will lay a hand on Wolverine, but let's say that Goro does get a hold of Wolverine and "break Wolverines back". What makes you think that breaking Wolverines back will stop him??

#180 Posted by dondave (40102 posts) - - Show Bio

Logan