#1 Edited by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

Esquire at Kingdom of the Key

Kingdom of the Key

DakRaiden, your team is setup in the Red Defense Zone of the Island Castle.

You can position any of your troops anywhere within the Red Defense Zone.

You also have access to your Country's Strategic Reserve of Trick Arrows. You can use any arrow that Green Arrow has used as long as it is roughly street level so no Nuke Arrow. You also get free Bows as well.

You must protect your Leader, Sora_TheKey from being killed or taken. He is within a special room that cannot be teleported into and is hardened.

You are ready for an attack but know nothing else.

Esquire

You start at the Blue Insertion Zone of the Northern Docks.

You have 1 Hour of Prep (Unless you have the Big Blue Box) to use within the Blue Insertion Zone.

You must kill or capture the enemy Leader, Sora_TheKey. To access the room, you need to get the access card from the enemy Commander.

You know where your target is but you know nothing of the defenses.

Rules:

You cannot Tele-BFR or Tele-Dismember or Tele-Drop.

You only have 4 posts to make your case. Any posts seeking clarification on an issue will not count so long as no debate is being had.

Prep may not interfere with your opponent only scout from the Insertion Zone.

Civilians are not present.

This is war, no other rules apply.

List Teams:

@darkraiden

Commander - Gambit (Staff, 5 Decks of Cards, Horse and Rooster Talisman)

Lieutenant - Composite Solid Snake (Thorn of Thunderbolt, Neptune's Helmet, Bandana, Stun Grenades, Chaff Grenades, Grenades, WP Grenades, Nikita Missile Launcher, AK-47, Pistol, Combat Knife, Anti-Material Rifle, Railgun, Sneaking Suit, Octocamo, Solid Eye, Stealth Camo, Fatman with Mininuke, Minigun)

  • Infantry - 12 Bullseyes (3 Fatmen with 1 Mininuke[4], 12 Cheytac Interventions [1])

Lieutenant - Wolverine (Muramasa Blade, Rabbit Talisman)

  • Infantry - 12 Bullseyes (Container of Toothpicks, 12 Miniguns [2])

Lieutenant - Sabretooth (Ox Talisman, Fancy Feet)

  • Infantry - 12 Taskmasters (Container of Toothpicks, 11 Miniguns [2], 12 Infrared Goggles [1])

Lieutenant - Spider-man (Spidey Suit, Webshooters, Pig Talisman, Eye of Dashi)

  • Infantry - 12 Taskmasters (Standard Gear)

The T-Troop [3C] - Horse, Rabbit, Ox, Pig, Rooster Talisman

Emperor Scorpion [2C] - Eye of Dashi, Fancy Feet, Thorn of Thunderbolt, Neptune's Helmet

vs.

@esquire

Commander - Prometheus (CFJ Gear)

  • 12 Daredevils (Billy Clubs, Black Shadowland Suit w/ Wrist Blades, 12 Captain America Shields [3], 12 Dragonskin Armors [1])

  • 15 Batmans (Batsuit with Empity Utility Belt, 12 Grappling Guns, 12 Swords [1])

  • 6 Deadshots (Wrist Guns, Helmet 6 M82A1 .50 Cals with Anti-Armor Ammunition [2])

Lieutenant - Archangel

  • 6 Deadshots (Wrist Guns, Helmet, 6 M82A1 .50 Cals with Anti-Armor Ammunition, 6 Goblin Gliders [4])

Lieutenants - Daken (Muramasa Claws, Wolverine Costume, 1 Speeder Bike[5]), Shriek (Suit, 1 Speeder Bike), Deathstroke (Armor, Sword, Assault Rifle, Staff, 1 Speeder Bike, 6 T-Spheres [4], Grenades)

  • 9 Snake Eyes (Twin Katanas, Twin Uzis, 9 Speeder Bikes)

Strike Package Bravo [1C] - 10 UAVs with Missile and 1 AC-130 Strike

Joker's Kitchen Sink [3C]

Radioshack Pack [1C]

#2 Posted by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio
#3 Posted by DarkRaiden (6909 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire I believe you should start since you're attacking.

#4 Edited by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden: Okay, let's do this.

First order of business is Team Chemistry. My officers are made up of four villains and an anti-hero with no moral compass in Archangel. Deathstroke, Daken, and Archangel are all very used to being part of teams of killers, and Shriek is not a strong personality so he won't be a problem. Prometheus is a tactical genius who will have no trouble keeping everyone in line. My troops are mostly composed of heroes, but thanks to Joker Venom injections they are all totally cooperative. My army is also equipped with communications devices, and will operate like a well oiled machine.

Your team, on the other hand, is a mess of conflict before the battle even begins. You have Wolverine and Sabretooth as lieutenants, who will try to kill each other on sight. You have Spider-Man ordering around Taskmaster and Bullseye, even though both of them have tried to kill him in the past. Bullseye has also tried to kill Gambit. Spider-Man and Gambit will take issue with Bullseye's and Taskmaster's penchant for killing people without remorse, and Lester and Tony will chafe under orders not to kill. Snake, Wolverine, and Sabretooth also kill without hesitation, which Parker especially is not going to be okay with. Your team is hardly going to be functional, and two of your officers have one of the most feral rivalries in comics. I don't see how you expect to operate with any sort of cohesion or efficiency, especially when Gambit isn't really known for his leadership abilities. From my experience with him, he's more of a loner, not a leader. Your team is composed of wildly varying moral stances and is a hotbed of rivalries and hatred, which is not going to translate to an effective army.

On the match itself:

During my hour of Prep, I'll have Daken, Deathstroke, a Batman and a Daredevil scout out your team's positions. With Daredevil's and Daken's enhanced senses, plus Batman's and Deathstroke's strategic minds, I'll have a good idea of your team, gear, and your position plus its weak points. Prometheus and Deathstroke will then form a strategy, while Shriek and Archangel drill with the troops and Daken coats the speeder bikes and Snake Eyes' in his scent-countering pheromones.

When the battle starts, my team will be split into the sections listed in the OP; Main Force, Aerial Force, and Mobility Force. They will deploy as follows:

  • Main Force is in Red
  • Aerial force is in Green
  • Mobility Force is in Blue
  • Yellow Arrows each represent 4 UAVs
  • Orange Arrow represents an AC-130

The Main force will march along the road until it reaches the closest piece of cover outside of Mini-Nuke Range, which is that large house. The Aerial force will fly to the closest sniping location, which they will take cover behind and wait for orders. The Mobility force will stay out of visual range and use their speeder bikes to round the island undetected, idling in a secluded plaza out of sight of your team.

Prometheus will then call in 4 UAVs, two from either side of the map, and my AC-130. As the 130 approaches firing range, the UAVs will sweep in from the sides, firing their missiles into your flanks and forcing you to stay corralled in the center of the island while the AC-130 rains cannonfire on your army. As this happens, the Deadshots from the Aerial force will peek out from behind cover and use their .50 cals to start killing your army, focusing on your lieutenants and the Bullseyes with mini-nukes. As this onslaught is happening, the last six UAVs will sweep in from the sides, firing more missiles into the chaos to kill even more of your team.

Also as the AC-130 opens fire, the Main Force will move to the road, charging forward under cover of the rain of gunfire. The 12 Daredevils will lead, using their Captain America shields to block any gunfire or trick arrows that may come their way. The Deadshots will fire between the gaps in the Daredevils, focusing on lieutenants and Bullseyes, taking down your team with .50 Cal anti-armor rounds. Prometheus and the Batmans will follow closely in the formation, keeping behind the cover of the Cap Shields.

As the AC-130 finishes its sweep, the last two UAVs will sweep across from the right while Archangel makes a sweep from the left, spraying neurotoxin-coated feathers over your surviving team members. The Mobility force will attack unheralded from behind while my Main force will engage up front as soon as the last missiles have hit. I'll have you massively outnumbered after the killing spree that was my opening salvo. None of your infantry has the armor to stand up to any of the attacks I'm bringing to the table, and neither do Snake and Spider-Man. You don't have enough space to give 53 people room to dodge massive explosions and sustained fire from high-caliber rounds, especially when it's backed by a dozen snipers and Archangel's numerous feathers.

In h2h, my Main Force can clean up with ease. Bullseye is outclassed by both Batman and Daredevil in close combat, and although Taskmaster can give either of them a good fight, any Taskys remaining will be hugely outnumbered and probably wounded, and will also have to deal with sniper fire from the Aerial Force and with the Main force Deadshots using their wrist guns closer in.

From the rear, I'll have a completely unexpected attack by a dozen mounted assailants. Shriek's suit has sound control, and he can emit counter-soundwaves to silence any noise he wants. He'll use this power to render my speeder bikes totally silent before the match begins. Daken will have coated them and the riders with pheromones to mask scent, so Wolverine won't be able to track them that way, either. Deathstroke and Daken will each have half of the T-Spheres, which project a field that blocks technological detection, so scanners will be useless to find them, as well. The only way you can sense them is old-fashioned visual detection, and they've carefully stayed out of sight the whole match. You have no idea they're on the battlefield, and you won't know until they hit your from behind without warning, your first hint when blaster cannons are tearing your remaining characters to shreds. If anyone is especially resilient, my riders can ram them at 300 miles per hour, which should be enough to pulverize anyone except Wolverine.

With the second stage of my attack in progress, I expect to almost immediately be down to Wolverine, Sabretooth, and Gambit. Sabretooth should probably be dead already, either because Wolverine kills him as soon as the fight starts, (as is in-character for both of them), or because his brain should have been mushed by a bullet or 5 since he doesn't have adamantium post-resurrection. Gambit should be killed the same way, since the Horse Talisman has never regenerated a character from actual death and Gambit doesn't have the Dog Talisman to keep him alive with his brain destroyed.

This leaves Wolverine against my whole team, and a speed boost isn't going to let him pull this one out. Deadshot has tagged speedsters, so he'll be able to pound Wolverine with bullets. The Daredevils will be able to use their agility and indestructible shields to keep him contained, and Deathstroke can help using T-Sphere forcefields. With Wolverine's movement limited, Archangel can pelt him with neurotoxin. The toxin was able to temporarily stop Deadpool's healing factor in X-Force, so this will slow Wolverine down enough that Daken, backed by Prometheus, Deathstroke, and 24 bloodlusted Batmans and Snake Eyes, will have no problem killing Wolverine using his Muramasa Claws.

#5 Edited by DarkRaiden (6909 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire: Pretty sure troops aren't the actual personalities, just the abilities. Not sure though, I'll ask @diredrill are they?

Ok, I've seen nothing saying Gambit is opposed to killing in self-defense, especially since he's done it before. He's also been trained since he was like 10 to be the leader of that thieves guild, but hey, that's fine with me. He doesn't need to lead much, just say "do your thing" and it's fine. I almost prefer it. Now where he can come in, is with his "hypnotic" charm power and kinetic explosion power, he can easily separate Sabertooth and Wolverine when they go to fight the first time. Spider-man will help as well. He'll simply tell them to guard opposite sides of the city/area. Now while Spider-man's opposed to killing, he can't really do anything to Sabretooth or Wolverine or snake, and would voice his concerns to Gambit, and Gambit would say he'd "try to do something" aka ask them not to kill as much, and Spider-man would do as he always does, try not to kill. There, there's the whole personality thing.

Now for your assault, bullets and missiles? That will hit exactly 0 people on my team.

Reasons why:

Gambit: dodged gunfire, lasers, etc. with the upmost ease. he now also has telekinesis and can easily just stop your missiles mid-air and throw them back at your team. This backfires.

Not to mention he can charge things, with his eyes, from afar, your UAVs will be exploded as will your missiles. Not to mention his accuracy as shown below.

So Gambit alone takes out your first "assault", as does Snake, Bullseye, Taskmaster, and Wolverine all with extreme accuracy and the weapons to do so.

Even better, Bullseye has adamantium ammo, so the UAVs are going down with anything from the sniper rifles (Bullseyes, Taskmasters, and Snake will all be set up sniping to defend our area, each in different areas) to the toothpicks, and certainly the mini-guns.

Now, as for why the bullets won't do anything even if your team gets them off and even why explosions won't work:

Sabertooth tanks bullets and explosions from Boom Boom and even trades blows with Ms. Marvel. Nothing in your arsenal will even hurt him. ESPECIALLY with the Ox talisman and his newfound speed.

Wolverine dodging bullets, tanking bullets, tanking hits from Hulk, fro Phoenix, Huk's nuclear THunderlcap, and more. You're not hitting him, nonetheless putting him down.

Spiderman dodges bullets as well:

bullets, rockets, webbing these things, laser, etc. He'll survive as well.

Taskmaster catching and blocking a bullet with a chain (dressed up as deadpool).

Now, to address your "sneak attack" with the soundless bikes or w/e.

Wolverine smelling people, hearing heartbeats, and even sensing adrenaline from distances. Now you said you'd disguise the bikes, but I don't remember you saying the riders. Even if you did, Spidey's Spider sense warns him of danger, even when he can't see it and sometimes points out people hiding and even directs him to places. So no, no sneak attack for you unfortunately.

And don't forget, we get Trick arrows such as:

And remember Bullseye is even better or even with arrows, and Taskmaster literally has Hawkeye's skill as well. So you have to counter tear gas, tasers, explosive arrows, and more.

Also you said you had the advantage hand 2 hand? No you don't.

Taskmaster taking on avenger teams, showing he can use al of his moves at once, beating Cat, beating Elektra (who's beaten Daredevil) with his eyes closed. And there's over 20 of these guys. 12 with impact resistant Captain America Suits and he has other feats like holding his own against Venom and Captain America and Bucky.

Wolverine taking on Bucky with ease, taking on Shang Chi and winning, beating Gamora, showing nerve strikes and pressure points, and has also beaten Iron Fist and other top notch martial artist. This is without super speed. Yeah you're doomed.

And Spider-man, well I'm sure you know no one on your team can match his agility and strength so I'll let it go with only a few scans:

And Sabretooth beats Wolverine's ass daily almost (sometimes they trade), and Snake will be shown with videos.

Snake:

Hand to Hand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjGtkX3nazY

Dodges bullet at 2:38 after fired: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFgzKRoQ5OA

As an old man, dodges Railgun projectile, aka Mach 7 at 3:18: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjgVBVHc9hQ

Durability and Agility, with Hind D missiles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXTPS5pfeFI

Tanks tank rounds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXATTNSxZFg

Agility, dodging explosions and bullets up to 3:40, starting at 0:00: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrfwia92kBo#t=214

Sniping and agility: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMoS2mesiLs

infinite ammo around :15: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJVHt3QIS0k

Talismans:

Rabbit:

5:38-5:40, 6:30-6:36

Horse talisman 20-:26

Rooster Talisman:

1:00-1:20:

1:19-1:26:

3:20-3:36:

Ox talisman:

1:58-2:00:

2:06:

pig talisman: 1:40-1:45, 2:04

17:50:

Shen Gong Wu:

Eye of Dashi: 16:42-16:48

Fancy Feet: 15:56-16:05

Thorn of Thunderbolt: 18:55-19:05

18:16-18:23

http://xiaolinpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Neptune_Helmet

Notice the words "walking hurricane" so that can come into play.

So to recap:

1. We're all too fast to be hit by bullets and missiles. Gambit can charge and explode them, or stop it with TK.

2. Wolverine, Sabretooth, Bullseye's skull are too durable to be hurt by bullets and explosions,as well as the Taskmasters in Captain America's impact and bullet resistant/proof suit.

3. Wolverine and Spider-man are too fast and too skilled to not take out nearly your entire team, especially with Superspeed given to Wolverine and Sabretooth

4. Spider-man has nifty eye beams and projectile to help with this fight

5. Sabretooth is far stronger and more durable (see as in one video the little girl couldn't affect the big guy, but with the talisman she kicked him into the building and collapsed it)

6. Gambit can charge and TK people

7. Bullseye with adamantium ammo takes out your people. Remember he has toothpicks, Sniper guns, and Miniguns.

8. Snake is incredibly fast, with infinite ammo and powerful gear, also sniping.

9. Taskmaster is sniping and hand to hand he's better than your entire team.

#6 Edited by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire: @darkraiden: Like I was telling TTBA, Morality and Team Chemistry do come into play but there are stipulations.

Every participant has been heavily indoctrinated indoctrinated into thinking their foes are evil much like the Skrulls during Secret Invasion. They won't just kill without reason and they are in no way bloodlusted but they won't quibble over murder as this is war. Characters who would normally go out of their way to solve a problem without killing won't take that route here if killing saves the lives of their team. For example, Superman wouldn't hesitate to put his heat vision through Lex's skull if he knew it would directly save his teammates.

Every Participant here is also a willing member of the team. Unless the rivalry is significant or the character has specific flaws that would prevent them from working with another, they will try and make it work. Don't expect Red Skull and Captain America to walk hand in hand, they will be looking to settle scores.

Does this help you?

#7 Edited by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden

Pretty sure troops aren't the actual personalities, just the abilities. Not sure though, I'll ask diredrill are they?

There is no reason to believe that this is the case, and it would defeat the purpose of the Joker's Kitchen Sink perk.

Ok, I've seen nothing saying Gambit is opposed to killing in self-defense, especially since he's done it before. He's also been trained since he was like 10 to be the leader of that thieves guild, but hey, that's fine with me. He doesn't need to lead much, just say "do your thing" and it's fine. I almost prefer it.

The Thieves Guild is nothing like an army, but if that's the way you want to run your team, fair enough.

Now where he can come in, is with his "hypnotic" charm power and kinetic explosion power, he can easily separate Sabertooth and Wolverine when they go to fight the first time. Spider-man will help as well. He'll simply tell them to guard opposite sides of the city/area.

Show me his supposed 'charm power' having an effect on hatred as fierce as what Wolverine and Sabretooth feel for each other. And even if Spider-Man is able to restrain Wolverine while Gambit keeps Sabretooth back with his 'kinetic explosion power,' that's not going to make either of them very likely to follow orders. Seriously, your strategy is to throw grenades at Sabretooth until he obeys you? Not a good plan. Somebody's getting killed.

Now while Spider-man's opposed to killing, he can't really do anything to Sabretooth or Wolverine or snake, and would voice his concerns to Gambit, and Gambit would say he'd "try to do something" aka ask them not to kill as much, and Spider-man would do as he always does, try not to kill. There, there's the whole personality thing.

Spider-Man is going to put himself in harm's way trying to stop people from being killed. You think he's just going to stand there and watch while Bullseye -- who Parker knows to be a sadistic sociopath -- is running around with a mini-nuke launcher? He's going to be disarming the supervillains before they starts using WMDs. That's who Spider-Man is. And if Gambit steps in and tells him to stop, he'll alienate Peter, who will either not stop, or will leave because he wants no part in mass murder. You can't have Peter Parker's personality coexisting with Bullseye's and Sabretooth's. And you can't just say he would ignore the fact that they're planning to kill lots of people. That's about as out-of-character for Peter as you can get.

Now for your assault, bullets and missiles? That will hit exactly 0 people on my team.

A bit ambitious, considering you've got 50 people packed into a space generously the size of Nuketown.

Reasons why:

Gambit: dodged gunfire, lasers, etc. with the upmost ease.

But he's not going up against a couple shooters from one direction, he's going up against sustained rapid fire, large-volume explosions, and precision sniper fire from multiple directions. He's good, but even Gambit will be hard-pressed not to get hit when he's being attacked from multiple sides. He doesn't have 360 degree vision or anything, so attacks from behind or beside have a good chance of taking him unawares.

he now also has telekinesis and can easily just stop your missiles mid-air and throw them back at your team. This backfires.

It's been a long time since I watched Jackie Chan Adventures, but I don't remember anything like the precision needed to grab a missile moving at mach 1, much less the power to overcome the sort of momentum behind a 100-lb missile moving at 800 miles per hour. From everything I can remember of the Talismans, including the showings you posted, this is a massive overestimation of what Gambit is actually capable of.

Not to mention he can charge things, with his eyes, from afar, your UAVs will be exploded as will your missiles.

He burned out this part of his power in the battle with New Sun. Unless he's gotten re-upgraded in the last year or so, this isn't a power he currently possesses.

Not to mention his accuracy as shown below.

Accurate or not, he isn't going to hit an airplane with thrown cards.

So Gambit alone takes out your first "assault", as does Snake, Bullseye, Taskmaster, and Wolverine all with extreme accuracy and the weapons to do so. Even better, Bullseye has adamantium ammo, so the UAVs are going down with anything from the sniper rifles (Bullseyes, Taskmasters, and Snake will all be set up sniping to defend our area, each in different areas) to the toothpicks, and certainly the mini-guns.

Sniper Rifles are going to take a loooong time to take out an airplane. And if your characters are all set up in sniping positions, they won't really be in a position to be dodging. Makes it easier to kill them via aircraft. Also, what is Taskmaster using to snipe? Sniper Rifles, or really rifles of any sort, are not 'standard gear' for Taskmaster. Pistols, perhaps, but they're hardly long range weapons.

Miniguns are perhaps more dangerous, but they're also shorter range, incredibly inaccurate, and the recoil will make it basically impossible for anyone without substantial superhuman strength to sustain fire at such an elevated target. Unfortunately, neither Bullseye nor Taskmaster have substantial superhuman strength.

And I would really like to hear how you intend to take out an AC-130 with toothpicks.

Now, as for why the bullets won't do anything even if your team gets them off and even why explosions won't work: Sabertooth tanks bullets and explosions from Boom Boom and even trades blows with Ms. Marvel. Nothing in your arsenal will even hurt him. ESPECIALLY with the Ox talisman and his newfound speed.

I find it interesting that you didn't post any scans of post-resurrection Sabretooth, since that's the version you have. You also didn't specify which of your scans involve Sabretooth with Adamantium, since you don't have it here. And you also didn't post any feats of Sabretooth tanking a 20mm cannon round through the skull, or really any substantial penetrative durability. Certainly nothing to compare with .50 cal anti-armor or anything the AC-130 is packing. Creed has good blunt force durability, I'll give you that. But he's been much less impressive in general since his resurrection, and he's been taken down by claws to the brain more than once. A much greater amount of bullet-related trauma through the cranium will take him down easily. And just like Gambit, he can't watch every direction at once. And most of the time, he doesn't even bother dodging. That's a recipe for Deadshot blowing his brains out. And that's good enough for a KO.

Wolverine dodging bullets, tanking bullets, tanking hits from Hulk, fro Phoenix, Huk's nuclear THunderlcap, and more. You're not hitting him, nonetheless putting him down.

Wolverine is tough. He has a penchant for tanking, which will hurt against the caliber of ammo he's facing here, but he'll probably survive the initial onslaught mostly intact. His healing factor should be taxed a fair bit, but he'll at least be alive.

Spiderman dodges bullets as well: bullets, rockets, webbing these things, laser, etc. He'll survive as well.

But he's still going to struggle with the sheer volume of fire. The multi-directional hail of bullets will overload his spider-sense, and dodging so many things will leave him vulnerable to being shot in mid-air, a flaw in his style that Punisher and others have exploited. Deadshot has tagged speedsters, he'll be able to do the same. Spider-Man is quick, but he's not tough at all against penetrative damage. One shot to the torso will slow him down enough that the rest of the hail will kill him dead. With the Deadshots focusing on your lieutenants, Spider-Man is eventually going to leave himself open and get tagged. And it only has to happen once.

Taskmaster catching and blocking a bullet with a chain (dressed up as deadpool).

Which is all well and good, but then you realize anti-armor .50 cal ammo is going to be going 3 times the speed of those handgun bullets and is being fired by an expert marksman while Taskmaster is simultaneously forced to deal with explosions and a rain of 20mm cannon fire and those feats suddenly become much less relevant.

Now, to address your "sneak attack" with the soundless bikes or w/e. Wolverine smelling people,

Too bad I already told you that Daken can mask them from Wolverine's sense of smell using pheromones, which he's shown multiple times in the past. This is irrelevant and had been countered before you posted it.

hearing heartbeats,

Which will be masked by Shriek's counter-sound generator, so he won't be hearing anything.

and even sensing adrenaline from distances.

This seems to merely be an extension of his sense of smell, unless you think he has some sort of sixth "adrenaline sense." So Daken will counter it with pheromones.

Now you said you'd disguise the bikes, but I don't remember you saying the riders.

I thought it was implied, seeing as all of the methods I'm using to render the bikes undetectable extend organically to the riders.

Even if you did, Spidey's Spider sense warns him of danger, even when he can't see it and sometimes points out people hiding and even directs him to places. So no, no sneak attack for you unfortunately.

Parker's Spider Sense will already be going off in a frenzy from multiple directions, due to the UAVs, Deadshots, circling Gunship, and the attacking Main force. He won't be able to keep track of everything and distinguish that my Mobility force is going to attack. And even if somehow, against every showing of Spider-Sense, he was able to do so, what is he going to do about it? Shout it over the automatic gunfire and explosions? Your island is a chaos of death and destruction. You have no communications equipment. Even if Parker was somehow able to sense my strike team before they attack, which he can't, he won't be able to do anything more than alert a Taskmaster or two. And while he's distracted with that, Deadshot will shoot him. There's no way that Peter is going to mess up my surprise attack.

And don't forget, we get Trick arrows such as:

And remember Bullseye is even better or even with arrows, and Taskmaster literally has Hawkeye's skill as well. So you have to counter tear gas, tasers, explosive arrows, and more.

You actually get Green Arrow's trick arrows, not Hawkeye's, but it's not a big deal either way. My Daredevils with shields+armor will be able to tank any thing you fire at my main force, and my Aerial task force is out of effective range, as well as all riding gliders which can move then out of the way at 90 mph. You don't know about my Mobility force, so you won't really be shooting at them. And Deadshot was able to shoot multiple arrows out of the air against Green Arrow, so most of your trick arrows won't even make it to the point where I have to either tank or dodge them.

Also you said you had the advantage hand 2 hand? No you don't. Taskmaster taking on avenger teams, showing he can use al of his moves at once, beating Cat, beating Elektra (who's beaten Daredevil) with his eyes closed. And there's over 20 of these guys. 12 with impact resistant Captain America Suits and he has other feats like holding his own against Venom and Captain America and Bucky.

Most of the Taskmasters will be dead from gunfire and explosions long before it goes h2h, and the rest will be battered and slowed. But even if they weren't, I have 15 Batmans, 12 armed with swords. Ra's al Ghul has been mastering swordfighting for centuries, and is one of the most deadly swordsmen on the planet. Batman outdueled him casually as part of a larger plan. And this is a bloodlusted Batman who won't be holding back. He has moves like the Leopard Blow which can oneshot a human. Taskmaster doesn't have superhuman durability, he'll get taken down in a single hit. Taskmaster has copied a lot of good h2h moves, but Batman has mastered every style of martial arts on the planet. He's got more moves than Tasky, and he's developed his own style that Taskmaster has never seen before. He's also got the Batsuit, which is extremely durable, and most of them have swords, which makes them even more lethal.

One on one, Batman would take a slight majority over Taskmaster in a random encounter. But now, thanks to the fact that I have Daken scouting during my prep, Batman will have been told all about Tasky before the match even begins, so he'll know his powers and abilities, while Taskmaster will have no such luxury. Batman is also bloodlusted and will immediately go all out for the kill, using every dirty trick in his arsenal.

Taskmaster's mindset is nowhere near as clear-cut, and it's one of his biggest problems. He plays around, he gets scared, he loses confidence...he just isn't as effective as his powerset should make him, because he's got mental issues. Batman has made a career out of using the Gotham rogues' mental issues against them, and he'll do the same thing to Taskmaster here. Masters has a lot of skill and a lot of good feats. But this is a Batman who's not holding back and who knows what he's up against. Even counting ones that somehow aren't wounded, Taskmaster is going down, hard.

Also, why would some of the Taskmasters have Captain America suits? That's not listed in your gear, and I don't remember it even being an option for purchase.

Wolverine taking on Bucky with ease, taking on Shang Chi and winning, beating Gamora, showing nerve strikes and pressure points, and has also beaten Iron Fist and other top notch martial artist. This is without super speed. Yeah you're doomed.

Daredevil has the reflexes to tangle effectively with Spider-Man, and they all have indestructible shields. They can contain Wolverine, and Deathstroke can do the same with his T-Spheres' forcefields. Slade could even use them to make holograms of Wolverine's enemies like Lady Deathstrike and Romulus, since Daken knows what they look like. Normally, Wolverine would know they were fake, since they don't have a scent or heartbeat. But none of my mobility force has that and they'll be killing your team like real people, so Wolverine will have no choice but to assume the holograms are real. While he's chasing them, I can clean up the remains of your army and then deal with him as a team.

A Vulcan-forged bullet went straight through a Kryptonian. It should punch through his adamantium skull just fine, and Prometheus' battle computer will figure that out pretty quickly. Deathstroke should be able to use his sword skill to take Wolverine apart like Lady Deathstrike did in X-Force. With Deathstroke's tactical mind, he'll be able to figure out the best ways to take out a healer, and he's got the stats, skill, and T-Spheres to make them count. And a .50 cal bullet to the head should knock Wolverine dizzy for a moment from the sheer force alone, plenty of time for anyone on my team to take out an eye or shred some tendons. Wolverine's deadly, no doubt about it. He's tough to take down. But I've got plenty of ways to do it.

And Spider-man, well I'm sure you know no one on your team can match his agility and strength so I'll let it go with only a few scans:

But Daredevil's taken him on effectively a couple of times, and Deathstroke with T-Spheres would be a pretty decent matchup on his own. Daken would have killed him if he'd been allowed to, and both Prometheus and Deadshot have tagged speedsters. Spider-Man is very dangerous. But he'll be off balance mentally after being forced to work with these killers, and he'll be lucky to make it through the opening barrage without getting sniped, anyway. Again, I have lots of people who will be effective against Spider-Man. He's good, but he's not good enough to turn things around for your army.

And Sabretooth beats Wolverine's ass daily almost (sometimes they trade),

Post-ressurection, Wolverine has stomped Sabretooth in their past 5 showings. Sabretooth has almost no skill, and he doesn't have the adamantium to keep Deathstroke or even Batman from decapitating him. Daken will dominate him one-on-one thanks to his disappearing trick and Muramasa Claws stopping Creed's healing factor. Prometheus will incapacitate him or just plain shoot him in the head. Deadshot will do the same thing. If Wolverine hasn't already killed him before the battle starts, my team will have little trouble doing the dirty work themselves.

and Snake will be shown with videos.

Snake is good, but I didn't see any durability to penetrative damage. That's the type of damage my team is dealing. How will Snake deal with it when he gets a bullet to the head, or gets hosed by an AC-130, or gets sliced to pieces by Daken or Deathstroke or Batman? He's good in h2h, I'll admit, and he's tough. But he can still be cut up or shot up, and I have the characters and air support to do both.

So to recap: 1. We're all too fast to be hit by bullets and missiles. Gambit can charge and explode them, or stop it with TK.

Disagree because of small space, sheer volume of bullets, accuracy of Deadshot, and the fact that you're being shot from all sides. Also, I think you're overestimating Gambit.

2. Wolverine, Sabretooth, Bullseye's skull are too durable to be hurt by bullets and explosions,as well as the Taskmasters in Captain America's impact and bullet resistant/proof suit.

Still don't understand where Taskmaster is getting those suits, but they won't stop a .50 cal, 20mm cannon, or blaster cannons. Bullseye can be taken down easily by bullets, as shown by Ronin, and his vital organs are hardly protected by his bonding. Sabretooth can be shot in the head, decapitated, or taken down by other means. Deathstroke has 6 T-Spheres with energy blasts powerful enough to one-shot a tank. How's Sabes going to hold up to a salvo of that? He'll be vaporized, as would be Wolverine's flesh and organs, letting anyone on my team get a clear shot at his brains.

3. Wolverine and Spider-man are too fast and too skilled to not take out nearly your entire team, especially with Superspeed given to Wolverine and Sabretooth

I strongly, strongly disagree. But I've stated many reasons already, I won't bore you by recapping them all here.

4. Spider-man has nifty eye beams and projectile to help with this fight

Not really what I'm seeing as a massive gamechanger.

5. Sabretooth is far stronger and more durable (see as in one video the little girl couldn't affect the big guy, but with the talisman she kicked him into the building and collapsed it)

But he can still be dismembered and his brain mushed, so it's not going to make a big difference.

6. Gambit can charge and TK people

Not if he's killed in the opening salvo, sniped from behind by a Deadshot.

7. Bullseye with adamantium ammo takes out your people. Remember he has toothpicks, Sniper guns, and Miniguns.

But he also doesn't have the durability to stand up to the missiles and AC-130, so he'll go down the fastest. Especially if he remains stationary long enough to try sniping, he's going to get perforated by aircraft fire and the Deadshots.

8. Snake is incredibly fast, with infinite ammo and powerful gear, also sniping.

Again, sniping isn't a good strategy when my team is raining high caliber bullets on your position. Since there's no stipulation, it's pretty much assumed that all of the regular weapons in the tournament have infinite ammo, anyway. Not really a selling point.

9. Taskmaster is sniping and hand to hand he's better than your entire team.

Again, sniping is a recipe for getting killed. You've got all of your Bullseyes and Taskmasters in stationary positions trying to get a stable shot off at my team. But my main force is in cover behind indestructible shields and my aerial force is mostly behind cover and moving around rapidly when they aren't, so you'll have trouble actually sniping anyone. And while you're trying, my UAVs and AC-130 will be tearing your snipers to shreds, even moreso since they aren't focused on dodging. And Deathstroke, Daken, Prometheus, and Batman can all take your Taskmasters in h2h. Snake Eyes and Daredevil would both do well, also. Not that this battle will really be decided in h2h, since most of the Taskmasters will get killed as they try to snipe.

You've massively undersold the versatility and sheer deadliness of my team. My opening barrage will be almost impossible to avoid from your enclosed location, and the tactical advantage of my Mobility force ambush is enormous. Your team will be massively outnumbered by the time our armies actually engage, and my wealth of skill and destructive power will be more than enough for the victory.

#8 Edited by DarkRaiden (6909 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire:

1. Look above, Spider-man thinks your team is evil and will see it as necessary. This also takes care of Taskmaster's "problems" and what you think will be conflict amongst my team.

2. So, everyone on my team has shown that they dodge and block bullets with ease, yet somehow YOUR bullets will be too much. Yeah right.

3. Gambit can still charge your UAVs, and if he can block and dodge and react to bullets, why wouldn't he be able to stop them via TK? It's as simple as reacting fast enough, which HE as a character has already shown.

4. I listed the Captain America suits in my gear LONG ago to confuse any Marvel people as to who exactly was fighting. And standard gear was for the tournament, as in an Ak-47, bullet proof armor and a few other things as said by @diredrill

5. I'm sorry Sniping doesn't mean kneeling down, and taking aim, by Sniping I was using vernacular as in, being hidden from sight and shooting down all that come close. Bullseye and Taskmaster by extension don't need to actually take sniping position to "snipe".

Speaking of that,

That's Hawkeye taking down a Helicopter in 1 arrow. There's effectively 48 Hawkeye's on my team as infantry (Taskmaster copied his abilities, Bullseye has similar or better aim). Your UAVs will be taken down immediately. There will be a mix, probably 6 Bullseyes using arrows, 6 using mini-guns, 6 using sniper rifles, 6 using Aks and toothpicks. And yeah toothpicks and sniper rounds will destroy a UAV when they're Adamantium as in they pierce anything. All bullets, toothpicks, etc. will be ripping through your people and UAVs with ease. Only those with Cap America shields will be ALMOST safe, as I've shown Bullseye (and by extension Taskmaster) can ricochet shots.

Also,

This is happening, ricocheting arrows via Hawkeye as well, and arrows into your guns, plugging them. I know Deadshot's had that happen to him via Green Arrow before, and it will happen here as well.

6. I get Green arrow's trick arrows? Ok so these?:

Well that's great. So one hit by a freeze arrow (which would also be adamantium I suppose) takes out your UAVs via freezing them. Cap's shield? Cool, you get frozen by a ricochet arrow or trapped by a net arrow or a time bomb arrow (which i don't believe I showed, but have the scans for). So now not only are your UAVs taken out immediately, but your team is now assaulted by net arrows to keep them busy as Wolverine and Sabretooth slice and dice and Spider-man KO and for Gambit to charge.

7. I don't remember Gambit being powered down since them, maybe provide proof? Same with Sabertooth. Because I have scans that say different and IIRC Sabertooth has been upgraded since some of those scans (the Ms. Marvel, old school ones)

8. Spidey being overwhelmed by bullets? Really?

So he can catch bullets in his web, dodge them point blank, dodge lasers, dodge machine gun fire, and multiple other things, and hit quicksilver, but he'll be overwhelmed by bullets. Right. Also take a look at his webbing. "In the space between heartbeats" he webs up that debris. His webbing can tank bullets. He'll be fine. Easily. Also, as for anyone of your people beating him, he's webbed up Iron Man before and kept him tied up. That's class 100+. No one in your team can break that web.

As for Daredevil,

Spidey's too fast for him, Gambit has tagged him, and there's Spidey dealing with that shield. Not to mention, them being open to freeze arrows, explosive arrows, net arrows, ricochet of said arrows, timebomb arrows and more by the greatest marksmen in comics. 48 of them to be exact.

9. You greatly underestimate Taskmaster. He can not only copy and analyze Batman's style, but use Spidey, Hawkeye, Daredevil, etc. against him all at once. Many people consider Captain America to be =>Batman.

There's him taking on Cap and Iron Man, Cap and Bucky, using a heart punch/chi move, tanking a hit from spider-man (and a car), some speed of his disarming people and catching their guns before they hit the ground. If you want I have him going against Iron Man as well and, well I have nearly everyone on my team fighting Daken at one point.

10. Kryptonian =|= to Adamantium. It's not really comparable to say that a Kryptonian's as dense either. Thor, Hulk, others people say are equal to or >Superman and other Kryptonians and people we all agree can hurt Kryptonians, they can't pierce or break Adamantium. It takes Skyfather+ IIRC, so no the Vulcan-forged bullets won't be hurting Wolverine at all. Not that they'll hit him considering he dodges bullets easily and now has a speed burst.

11. You forget, Sabretooth has the Ox talisman, raising his durability to much higher levels now. He's strong and fast enough to easily kill Daken, and if Jet explosions and those giant Explosions from Boom Boom didn't kill him, and neither did Deadpool lighting him up, why would a simple headshot?

He took that, didn't die, and is now more durable due to his talisman, and much faster due to his shen gong wu.

12. Snake dodged a mach 7 railgun projectile. He dodged helicopter fire, dodged and tanked missiles. He's also invisible via stealth camo and has infinite ammo with a mini-gun. Snake alone will take down a good number of your people and I don't see anyone taking him down really.

13. vs. Daken time:

Taskmaster handing him his ass, hope he got that heat thing fixed by the way or these explosions are REALLY gonna handicap him.

Spider-man beating him, gets over the pheromone thing

Gambit did that

Wolverine hands him it twice.

14. What does your team do about superspeed Wolverine hitting them with his claws that cut everything, nerve strikes, pressure points, etc.? I've seen no counters to that. Also what happens if you happen to take out members of my team and Wolverine takes their talismans, making him even more powerful and heal even faster? Which btw is another reason Gambit will be fine. Not only can he dodge, stop with TK, block bullets etc. He has the horse talisman that can heal gaping holes in people's chests. That'll work fine.

15. So you gotta counter the freeze, net, arrows with accuracy that Hawkeye had to take down an aircraft in one arrow, from12 or so people. You have to worry about mini-gun fire from them, and sniper fire, also Snake blindsiding you as he's invisible with his sniper fire, anti-material that is, mini-gun, railgun, stun grenades, chaff grenades (counters t-spheres), and infinite ammo.

16. Gotta counter Sabretooth with MORE durability and MORE strength, his speed, his viciousness all coming at you, counter Spider-man who's too fast, too powerful, too agile and has eyebeams and the Eye of Dashi now. Counter Gambit charging any and everything from range who can now TK and heal indefinitely.

17. Gotta counter Wolverine speedblitzing ad with his muramasa blade for Deathstroke, his nerve strikes, pressure points, metal breaking strength, unbreakable skeleton, etc.

18. And remember Bullseye's ammunition is Adamantium. As in 1 hit 1 kill and they ricochet.

#9 Edited by sora_thekey (8159 posts) - - Show Bio

Gaaah! Protect me!!!

Moderator
#10 Edited by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill

I spent 3 command points to make my team cooperative and willing to kill. The other two benefits are fluff since there's no offensive TP and almost no characters would run from a fight where death is a possibility. Now you're telling us, long after the team creation phase has ended, that all characters are automatically cooperative and willing to kill? That was never indicated in the sign-up thread or in the PM, and it almost completely removes the use for Joker's Kitchen Sink. Your ruling essentially wastes 3 of my command points, and does the same for the 5 other participants who chose the perk. The entire purpose is all but defeated by a ruling that wasn't in the rules. I find that irksome.

@darkraiden

1. Look above, Spider-man thinks your team is evil and will see it as necessary. This also takes care of Taskmaster's "problems" and what you think will be conflict amongst my team.

Spider-Man will kill to protect his team. Does that mean he's going to be happy about sociopaths running around with nukes? I'm skeptical. And Wolverine will still start the match by killing Sabretooth, since feuds are unaffected. Also, this has no bearing on Taskmaster's mental issues. He thinks my team is evil. Great. He's still a mercenary and a coward and likes to play around. He doesn't care about evil, he cares about saving his own skin. Taskmaster is not a soldier, and hating an enemy won't change that.

2. So, everyone on my team has shown that they dodge and block bullets with ease, yet somehow YOUR bullets will be too much. Yeah right.

Since my bullets are faster and more powerful than any they've dealt with and are coming in far greater volume, are supplemented by missiles and blaster fire, and many of them are being fired by Deadshot, who has tagged faster than anyone you've got, and you have no cover and have elected to attempt return fire rather than focusing on avoidance, yes they will. Sure ,a few of your team members might survive. But most of them will get tagged, and when you're talking about .50 cal anti-armor and 20mm cannon, one shot is all it takes for most of your troops.

3. Gambit can still charge your UAVs, and if he can block and dodge and react to bullets, why wouldn't he be able to stop them via TK? It's as simple as reacting fast enough, which HE as a character has already shown.

Gambit cannot charge the UAVs, since he lost that power at the end of the New Son arc. He can indeed block bullets, but these bullets are much faster than what he usually deals with, and the sheer force of them is going to wear down his arm strength, while the multiple angles of fire are going to be trouble since he can only focus on one direction at a time. And his TK has never shown the power or precision necessary to stop a Hellfire missile. And even if it had, it requires concentration that he needs for blocking bullets. If he wants to lose focus and try to use TK, he'll get taken out by a Deadshot anti-armor round through the head. And he forgot the immortality talisman, so his healing factor isn't going to bring him back from that.

4. I listed the Captain America suits in my gear LONG ago to confuse any Marvel people as to who exactly was fighting. And standard gear was for the tournament, as in an Ak-47, bullet proof armor and a few other things as said by diredrill

They aren't in the OP, and they aren't Tasky's standard gear. But I don't care if you have them, they won't stand up to the caliber of bullets I'm firing. They also won't confuse my team, since Daredevil can recognize Cap and Tasky by their heartbeats and Daken can do it by smell. Both of them are scouting before the battle, so I'll know you have Taskmasters and no Captain Americas. AK-47s have an effective range of less than 400 yards, they are hardly effective sniper weapons. And a bullet proof vest is no better than paper against the anti-armor and air-to-ground ammunition I'm using.

5. I'm sorry Sniping doesn't mean kneeling down, and taking aim, by Sniping I was using vernacular as in, being hidden from sight and shooting down all that come close. Bullseye and Taskmaster by extension don't need to actually take sniping position to "snipe".

There is nowhere to hide on that island, and nobody will be coming close until the AC-130 and UAVs have finished their sweep. And if your team is trying to keep hidden from my ground troops, they'll be stationary. That's how hiding works. But I'm coming after them from the sky with an AC-130, and 6 of my Deadshots plus Archangel can move to elevated positions and snipe from high in the sky, where any hiding places are ineffective. Deadshot even has infrared in his helmet, so your attempts to hide will be useless, and his rifle can shoot straight through any sort of cover you find on that island. Sniping, including the way you're trying to do it, is a terrible strategy against my assault. You can't hide from Deadshot, Daredevil, or my airplanes, I have communicators to tell the rest of my team where you're hiding, and if you're hiding then you won't be moving around in an attempt to dodge. If I've understood your plan correctly, you've got all 48 of your troops trying to snipe, which means they'll all be stationary, so they'll all get slaughtered.

Speaking of that, That's Hawkeye taking down a Helicopter in 1 arrow. There's effectively 48 Hawkeye's on my team as infantry (Taskmaster copied his abilities, Bullseye has similar or better aim). Your UAVs will be taken down immediately.

UAVs will be flying at a far higher altitude than a helicopter, they'll be moving quickly instead of hovering in place to fire, and they don't have the obvious and easy weakness of the exposed motor. In addition, they only have to fire one missile. Although after that, they can crashland into your team since they're unmanned and have no further use. If you shoot one down while it's divebombing your team, that won't change the fact that momentum carries it straight into your team. Good luck dodging that.

There will be a mix, probably 6 Bullseyes using arrows, 6 using mini-guns, 6 using sniper rifles, 6 using Aks and toothpicks. And yeah toothpicks and sniper rounds will destroy a UAV when they're Adamantium as in they pierce anything. All bullets, toothpicks, etc. will be ripping through your people and UAVs with ease. Only those with Cap America shields will be ALMOST safe, as I've shown Bullseye (and by extension Taskmaster) can ricochet shots.

AK-47s, miniguns, toothpicks, and arrows don't have the range to be effective against my aircraft, which attack from a mile up in the sky. I'm doubtful that even a sniper rifle will reach that high straight up, but I don't feel like doing the calculations to confirm it right now. Maybe later if I have time. And as far as adamantium projectiles are concerned, you still have to put a lot of force behind a toothpick to penetrate body armor. All of my troops are accomplished bullet dodgers and most of them deflect bullets with ease. So everything except your sniper rifles will be easy pickings for them to dodge. And with the massive barrage I'm bringing down on your snipers at the beginning of the match, most of those sniper rifles should be taken out of play before anyone is exposed to their fire, regardless.

On the subject of ricocheting projectiles around Daredevil's defenses, this is the guy who has made a career out of chumping Bullseye, and he did that without an indestructible shield that will cover half of his body at once. Daredevil is better prepared for ricochets than perhaps anyone in comics, thanks to his radar sense and experience fighting against the master of ricochets himself.

Also, This is happening, ricocheting arrows via Hawkeye as well, and arrows into your guns, plugging them. I know Deadshot's had that happen to him via Green Arrow before, and it will happen here as well.

Yeah, it did happen to Deadshot. When he was blinded, a nice bit of context you conveniently left out. When he can see straight, this won't be a problem. There's also the small matter of him being maybe 50 feet away from Ollie at the time, far closer than he'll be here. And my Deadshots are either sniping from out of arrow range while riding gliders that can move at 90 mph, or they're protected by Daredevils who can react to the arrows and block them with Captain America shields. Either way, this isn't much of an issue. And if you want to mention that fight, when Deadshot could see again he shot Green Arrow's bowstring, removing the threat of arrows.

6. I get Green arrow's trick arrows? Ok so these?:

The OP says all the street level ones, yes.

Well that's great. So one hit by a freeze arrow (which would also be adamantium I suppose) takes out your UAVs via freezing them.

UAVs will be waaay out of arrow range. Effective range of an arrow is less than 100 yards. No way you're hitting a medium altitude airplane. But even if you could hit one, freezing part of a man when he's been soaked in water is not a good enough feat to oneshot a 27 foot aircraft. And even if that was somehow a possibility, the UAV only has to fire one missile and then divebomb. Freezing it in mid-dive won't change the trajectory, it still hits in the middle of your army and goes boom.

Cap's shield? Cool, you get frozen by a ricochet arrow or trapped by a net arrow or a time bomb arrow (which i don't believe I showed, but have the scans for). So now not only are your UAVs taken out immediately, but your team is now assaulted by net arrows to keep them busy as Wolverine and Sabretooth slice and dice and Spider-man KO and for Gambit to charge.

Deadshot, when not blind, shot almost every arrow Green Arrow fired at him. My Deadshots can do the same here. Or I can just dodge, since all of my main force have excellent dodging feats. But regardless, Daredevil and Batman have blades to cut through nets and the reflexes to catch arrows, so they can keep the trick arrows from detonating on contact and throw them away or back. Not a big deal.

7. I don't remember Gambit being powered down since them, maybe provide proof?

It was the end of the New Son arc. He was powered up by Sinister giving him extra brain tissue, and then he fought an alternate version of himself and burned out most of his powers, returning them to normal levels. I don't have that arc on hand, but if you've actually read it you should know. Perhaps it's not the most reliable source, but the CV wiki backs me up, for what it's worth. It's under the heading "The Sunset Dawn" if it's really that important to you. Even if you didn't read that arc, I would think you would have been tipped off by the fact that he never used that power in anything, including his 2012 ongoing, the X-23 ongoing he starred in, AvX, and all the other X-Men comics he's been in over the last several years. He was only capable of charging by line-of-sight for a few months, and that was more than a decade ago.

Same with Sabertooth. Because I have scans that say different and IIRC Sabertooth has been upgraded since some of those scans (the Ms. Marvel, old school ones)

But post-resurrection, his feats are lackluster. There's a reason you haven't posted any recent feats. It's because there aren't any good ones. He's spent most of his time getting stomped by Wolverine. He also no longer has adamantium, which makes several of your durability showings irrelevant. Current Sabretooth just isn't that great. If you've got some decent post-resurrection feats, then please mention them. But from everything I've read over the last couple of years, he's not good for much these days.

8. Spidey being overwhelmed by bullets? Really? So he can catch bullets in his web, dodge them point blank, dodge lasers, dodge machine gun fire, and multiple other things, and hit quicksilver, but he'll be overwhelmed by bullets. Right. Also take a look at his webbing. "In the space between heartbeats" he webs up that debris. His webbing can tank bullets. He'll be fine. Easily. Also, as for anyone of your people beating him, he's webbed up Iron Man before and kept him tied up. That's class 100+. No one in your team can break that web.

So a bunch of scans of his webbing, and a couple of him dodging or blocking pistol rounds from a single assailant. Nothing about dodging multiple aircraft-mounted high-caliber multi-barrel rapid-fire machine guns while simultaneously dealing with multiple snipers from multiple angles, all of whom are more accurate than gunmen like the Punisher, who's tagged Spidey with handguns, not even needing to use a sniper rifle. The problem is that the sheer volume of bullets will get Spidey airborne during a dodge, and Deadshot will then take advantage of his limited midair mobility, like Punisher did. If Spidey is focusing on weaving a web, he'll leave himself open to gunfire from an angle the web is not facing.

As for Daredevil, Spidey's too fast for him,

Which is belied by the fact that Daredevil has kept up with Spider-Man on multiple other occasions.

Gambit has tagged him,

He's done the same to Gambit. By feats, Daredevil has comparable speed and agility coupled with much greater hand-to-hand skill. He's got blades to work on Gambit's healing factor and a shield to focus his striking power for a KO, plus his classic billy clubs to distract with ricochets or tie up for an incapacitation. One-on-one, a bloodlusted Daredevil has a decent chance against Gambit, even with the healing factor. And that's just one of my troops going against your commander.

and there's Spidey dealing with that shield.

Daredevil's been able to fake out the Spider-Sense with billy club ricochets before, so adding in the shield to that dynamic is bad news for Parker. Not that DD will be throwing it much since he has his billy clubs, but it's an option if necessary.

Not to mention, them being open to freeze arrows, explosive arrows, net arrows, ricochet of said arrows, timebomb arrows and more by the greatest marksmen in comics. 48 of them to be exact.

Already addressed this. Dodging, blocking, catching arrows, tracking ricochets with Radar Sense, Deadshot shooting the arrows and the bowstrings and the bowmen, Batman catching arrows... I have plenty of ways to deal with the arrows.

9. You greatly underestimate Taskmaster. He can not only copy and analyze Batman's style, but use Spidey, Hawkeye, Daredevil, etc. against him all at once. Many people consider Captain America to be =>Batman.

Taskmaster has copied a lot of moves, yes. But Batman has mastered every fighting style on the planet. He's mastered 127 styles of martial arts, and from those he's made his own. Taskmaster has never shown even close to that amount of styles. He also forgets some of the moves because he remembers too much for his brain to handle, as is shown in Taskmaster: Unthinkable. He's also got mental issues and is going up against someone who's made a career out of beating people using their mental issues. See: Almost every member of the Gotham Rogues Gallery.

Batman is also bloodlusted, a state more deadly than any we have seen him in. He has the advantage in close combat weaponry, since 12 are armed with swords and Taskmaster only has a combat knife. The Batsuit also gives Bruce an advantage in durability. And finally, Daredevil and Daken can give Bruce an extremely good picture of what Taskmaster is capable of before the fight begins. Tasky will have no such luxury, which will make a big difference. Bruce has easily enough skill to compete straight up with Taskmaster, but every other advantage is in Batman's corner. Wayne will take a huge majority in this scenario, regardless of the fact that most of the Taskmasters will be shot to pieces before any hand-to-hand engagements.

And most people only consider Cap to be greater than or equal to Batman solely because of his physical stats. Bruce is widely regarded to have the edge in skill, but not the same level of physical prowess. Taskmaster doesn't have Cap's high end strength and speed feats, though, so the comparison falls through.

10. Kryptonian =|= to Adamantium. It's not really comparable to say that a Kryptonian's as dense either. Thor, Hulk, others people say are equal to or >Superman and other Kryptonians and people we all agree can hurt Kryptonians, they can't pierce or break Adamantium. It takes Skyfather+ IIRC, so no the Vulcan-forged bullets won't be hurting Wolverine at all. Not that they'll hit him considering he dodges bullets easily and now has a speed burst.

Perhaps, perhaps not. But Prometheus can stun him with neural chaff and put rounds through his eyeballs, so the penetration of the rounds isn't really an issue.

11. You forget, Sabretooth has the Ox talisman, raising his durability to much higher levels now. He's strong and fast enough to easily kill Daken, and if Jet explosions and those giant Explosions from Boom Boom didn't kill him, and neither did Deadpool lighting him up, why would a simple headshot?

To the best of my knowledge, the Ox talisman has never shown to make someone bulletproof. It mostly just amped blunt force durability. And unlike your scans vs Deadpool, Sabretooth doesn't have adamantium to protect his brain. A bullet can go straight through his head, like Wolverine has done with his claws. Explosions don't penetrate the same way a high-caliber bullet will. Sabretooth has fantastic durability against blunt trauma, I'm not trying to deny that. But my team doesn't rely on blunt trauma to get the job done. They use penetrative damage for the most part, and his durability against that sort of thing is lackluster. Even your scans show submachine gun rounds penetrating him just fine, and that was when he had adamantium. The .50 cal and 20mm and 40mm rounds I'm using will be far more lethal, and will also be able to get to his brain since his skull isn't currently reinforced.

12. Snake dodged a mach 7 railgun projectile. He dodged helicopter fire, dodged and tanked missiles. He's also invisible via stealth camo and has infinite ammo with a mini-gun. Snake alone will take down a good number of your people and I don't see anyone taking him down really.

Dodged a railgun projectile. One single projectile. That's not what he's facing here. And he never tanked a missile full-on, at least not in anything you've posted or that I've seen. He only gets hit by the edge of the explosion, and that's enough to toss him to the ground for several seconds, during which time a sniper or AC-130 could shoot him to death. Miniguns aren't accurate at long ranges, which is where most of the engagements are going to take place, and Deadshots have infrared to target him despite his camo. Daredevils have Radar Sense to pinpoint him and comm gear to call out his position to snipers, the AC-130, Prometheus for a UAV strike, or the mobility force for a blaster cannon strafing run. Stealth isn't a good option against a team with 12 Daredevils.

13. vs. Daken time: Taskmaster handing him his ass, hope he got that heat thing fixed by the way or these explosions are REALLY gonna handicap him.

Sheesh, you could at least try to pretend you aren't pasting scans from respect threads. If you'd read the story, which you obviously haven't, you would know that Daken is high and hallucinating from a superpowered drug called Heat. His healing factor is barely functioning, he's not popping his claws because there's a clawed murderer running around and he would be labelled prime suspect, he can't trust his senses because of the hallucinogen, and he isn't even trying to win this 'fight.' He lets Taskmaster kill the gang members and stab him so that he can fake his death and run away with a huge stash of drug money. Seriously, anyone with knowledge of Taskmaster or Daken would know that this isn't a usable showing for either of them.

Spider-man beating him, gets over the pheromone thing

Nice job posting the second half of the fight, ignoring the part where Daken slices Pete open and then sheaths his claws because Osborne wants Parker alive. Daken could have decapitated Spidey, but he wasn't allowed to do it. Parker's Spider-Sense will be on overload here because of bullets from all directions and the Mobility force ambush, so he won't have much luck using it to track Daken. He'll get killed because there's too much going on for his danger sense to keep up with. Post the whole fight or don't post it at all.

Gambit did that

Funny, first you won't post the first half of a fight and then you won't post the end of this one. (Or the first half, for that matter.) If you post the last scan, you'll realize that Daken in fact manipulated Gambit and distracted him using X-23 so that he could get the drop on Remy. But of course that doesn't help your case, so you'll just pretend it didn't happen and hope I haven't read the fight in question. But I have. Post whole fights or don't post them at all. You're just trying to mislead voters, and I'll call you out on it all day.

Wolverine hands him it twice.

He's also beaten Wolverine multiple times. And in the last fight, he was fighting in berserker mode. Consistently, Daken has been shown to fight far worse when he's going feral and lets his emotions take control. He was roflstomping Deadpool until Wade got his emotions into play, and then DP actually landed some hits. But once he got his emotions under control, he finished Wilson in a couple of moves. In the scenario here, Daken will be prepared to encounter his father after the scouting trip, and he's also fighting as part of an army, much like in Siege when he was fighting at an extremely high level. He'll also have backup by the time things go h2h, since your team will be outnumbered after the sniper-backed airstrike.

14. What does your team do about superspeed Wolverine hitting them with his claws that cut everything, nerve strikes, pressure points, etc.? I've seen no counters to that.

Then maybe you should try reading my posts. He can be contained by Daredevils with shields, since they have the reflexes to fight Spider-Man and can block his claws. He can be trapped by a T-Sphere forcefield. He can be distracted by T-Sphere holograms of his greatest enemies, since Daken basically has full knowledge on him. He can be pulverized by a T-Sphere at 14 miles per second, far faster than he can react to. It will vaporize his flesh, brain, and organs, KOing him. He can be tagged by a flurry of Archangel's neurotoxin feathers, each hit slowing him down and making him an easier target for the next one. Once he's totally paralyzed, he'll be killed with his own Muramasa Blade. He can be taken down effectively by Deathstroke or Daken when combined with one or two of my troops. His enhanced hearing makes him vulnerable to sonic blasts or disorienting signals from Shriek. He can be dazed by a .50 cal headshot from behind, and then shot through the eye sockets by a Deadshot from the front. Or Daken could use a T-Sphere to make himself invisible, Shriek would make him silent, and his pheromones would make him impossible to scent. Wolverine couldn't detect him, and he could incapacitate Wolverine with his Muramasa Claws while Logan is unable to tag him. I have plenty of options for dealing with Wolverine, and I'm sure I can come up with quite a few more if for some reason you choose to ignore all of these.

Also what happens if you happen to take out members of my team and Wolverine takes their talismans, making him even more powerful and heal even faster?

Or what happens if I take out members of your team and I take the talismans, making my team even more powerful? Is this as a concession that my airstrike will indeed kill your officers, since that's the only way Wolverine would be around and my team wouldn't? Because if they're being taken down in close combat, then my team is much nearer the talismans than Wolverine is.

And to answer your question, most of the same strategies apply. The first options used would probably be distraction or containment, followed by a T-Sphere smash at 14 mps to KO and finally either Daken using the M-Claws to shut down Logan's healing factor or someone taking the Muramasa Blade from his skeleton and using that to kill him.

Which btw is another reason Gambit will be fine. Not only can he dodge, stop with TK, block bullets etc. He has the horse talisman that can heal gaping holes in people's chests. That'll work fine.

Unless headshots destroy his brain, since he doesn't have the Dog Talisman for immortality. And he can still be KO'd, or Daken can kill him with the Muramasa Claws.

15. So you gotta counter the freeze, net, arrows with accuracy that Hawkeye had to take down an aircraft in one arrow, from12 or so people. You have to worry about mini-gun fire from them, and sniper fire, also Snake blindsiding you as he's invisible with his sniper fire, anti-material that is, mini-gun, railgun, stun grenades, chaff grenades (counters t-spheres), and infinite ammo.

I've countered most of this multiple times already. But to go into specifics, most of the trick arrows are useless for a while because of how far away my team is when the engagement starts. Once I get closer, the shields plus agility and reflexes make them not a big deal. Same with minigun fire. Snake is easily detected by scent, which Daken can do, or by Radar Sense, which the 12 Daredevils can do, and probably by infrared, which the Deadshots can do. Chaff won't bother T-Spheres since they have multiple sensors including the entire electromagnetic spectrum and are controlled mentally, so unless you can shut down Deathstroke's and Daken's senses, you won't be able to stop them from controlling the T-Spheres to do what they need to do. Infinite ammo is nothing significant, everyone has it.

16. Gotta counter Sabretooth with MORE durability and MORE strength, his speed, his viciousness all coming at you,

Wolverine kills him before the fight begins. He gets overwhelmed by bullets and his brain gets pulped. He gets outskilled and outmatched by Deathstroke's superior reach and reflexes and decapitated. Daken uses disappearing trick and Muramasa Claws to remove his limbs like he did to Deadpool. He gets vaporized by a T-Sphere's anti-tank blast or a T-Sphere moving at 14 mps, and doesn't have the adamantium structure to let him regenerate. Prometheus blasts him like he did Jay Garrick, and puts bullets through his skull. A couple of Snake Eyes' dismember him with swords that slice through steel limbs with ease. He gets pieces blown off by a hail of blaster cannon fire from the speeder bikes. He gets incapacitated by high-frequency sound blasts when Shriek takes advantage of his enhanced hearing, and then gets his head disintegrated by sound waves powerful enough to destroy huge concrete blocks. He gets pelted with Archangel's feathers, coated with a paralyzing neurotoxin that works despite powerful healing factors. He then gets decapitated while he can't move. Sabretooth isn't much of an issue.

counter Spider-man who's too fast, too powerful, too agile and has eyebeams and the Eye of Dashi now.

Some of the same strategies apply, especially overwhelming his spider sense with air-to-ground fire from Archangel and the AC-130, and then sniping him with Deadshot. If that doesn't work, the obvious solution is to pulp him with a T-Sphere.

Counter Gambit charging any and everything from range who can now TK and heal indefinitely.

Seeing as he can't actually do that, I'm not too worried. And if he's concentrating to use TK, he'll get headshotted and he can't heal from that. Or if he gets decapitated. Or Archangel can paralyze and dismember him. Most of the things I listed for Sabretooth work just as well for Gambit.

17. Gotta counter Wolverine speedblitzing ad with his muramasa blade for Deathstroke, his nerve strikes, pressure points, metal breaking strength, unbreakable skeleton, etc.

You already brought up Wolverine trying to kill my team, and I already wrote a paragraph of counters. I'm not going to bother copy/pasting it.

18. And remember Bullseye's ammunition is Adamantium. As in 1 hit 1 kill and they ricochet.

Only if it's a clean hit to a vital organ. And I have 12 Daredevils with unbreakable shields, which is a pretty solid counter. Plus, Bullseye has never ricocheted bullets or toothpicks. I can't even think of him ricocheting arrows, although I wouldn't be surprised if he's done so. He doesn't use ricochets very often, but since most of my team blocks bullets with ease, they can react to anything he's throwing, anyway. And you're so proud of how your adamantium stuff goes through anything it hits, but how are you going to ricochet something if it goes right through the first thing it hits? Seems a little bit unintuitive to me. Also, Wolverine's claws are consistently blocked by non-adamantium blades, so it's not like Adamantium is unblockable.

And a final note: Sora_the_key is in a room in the house on your island. I have an airplane circling your island, armed with 40mm and 105mm cannon. I know that Sora is in that house. So the AC-130 will shred the house to bits. Just how 'hardened' is this room? Is it going to shrug off 105mm cannon? Because if it can't, then your leader is dead before most of the engagement even happens. So that's a pretty easy victory for my team.

#11 Posted by Dextersinister (5940 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire: @diredrill: If you want I could make 2 3 point command packages for those who aren't satisfied with Jokers kitchen sink if they want to change it.

It may hold things back a bit but I see Esquires point.

#12 Edited by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister: @diredrill I would be willing to switch JKS out for an Aperture Science Crate and another Strike Package Bravo. I wouldn't use the crate this match, since it would change my strategy somewhat, and I could use the Strike Package to supplement the one I already have. So I wouldn't change my strategy, just make it more effective, so things wouldn't be slowed down.

But on second thought, it's probably easier all around if I stick with the same stuff in this match, just so that the debate retains continuity. I'm confident in my strategy right now, anyway, and it keeps the structure from getting cluttered with edits and retroactive clarifications. My other match hasn't really started, though, and many of the other debaters with JKS haven't started debating yet. Would it be possible to switch the command options only for those who aren't already entrenched in a debate?

#13 Edited by DarkRaiden (6909 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire:

1. Your bullets are mach 7? Your bullets are so much faster than the bullets Wolverine have dodged that they compensate for the Rabbit Talisman speed boost? You speak as if Wolverine and Sabretooth don't have speed boosts. You speak as if TK can't form a protective shield and block bullets around Gambit, and you speak as if Spidey hasn't tagged speedsters like Quicksilver and Speed Demon before. Just face it, your bullet barrage is utterly useless against this team.

2. UAVs will be shot down with ease, Sniper rounds back in the day, with old school rifles have reached over 1 mile and a half. To say Snake, who's beaten the best Sniper in the world, and Bullseye/Taskmaster can't take down your UAVs all together is ridiculous. Did you see what Bullseye did with a toothpick from that range? He pierced a window and killed a woman. Now it's adamantium, that's doing much more damage with much more range. Taskmaster gets this benefit.

3. Again, "Sniping" in this case means hiding and aiming. I don't know what your used to, but you can easily be shooting, notice a bullet coming, and dodge as they do many times in comics while attacking others. Hell Snake dodged a sniper round while just walking, then noticing the bullet and dodging. Same with the mach 7 railgun projectile. If you think someone who can dodge mach 7 with ease isn't gonna dodge your much, much slower bullets, barrage or not, you're sadly mistaken. They know they're in war being attacked, they're not preparing for a picnic. Spidey's dodged more, and again could create a simple web shield around him and others to block said bullets and even missiles. How do you account for the missiles being shot down by many projectiles? The missiles being webbed up before they get close to my team? The UAVs being webbed up and brought down.

4. Deadshot's hit like 1 speedster ever. He's also missed Green Arrow constantly in a shoot out. He's nearly died against Slade, he's utterly missed Batman who disappeared from his sight and more. Neither of these people have the reflexes of Wolverine, Spider-man, Gambit, etc. especially with the enhancements.

5. You keep saying Sabretooth doesn't have adamantium anymore but at least several of those scans, he doesn't have it either. Not sure what the argument's about. Do I need to show boneclaw Wolverine's regen feats to show that brainshots don't kill? And how does being blown up to nearly the skeleton in a jet explosion NOT account for regenerating a brain? I posted the scans for a reason to show what Sabretooth can take. Regardless of your opinion, Ox talisman amps durability, so Sabretooth now has an extra layer essentially of durability to add to his regeneration. And extra strength to easily slice through your team. And no Wolverine's not getting Sabretooth. Gambit has TK and more to separate them to different sides.

6. Gambit has reacted to, dodged, blocked, etc. bullets with ease. Now he has a healing factor and TK and he suddenly fails against them? Explain that logic. And you say constantly Daredevil has Cap America shields. Guess what stops that? TK. Freeze Arrows, Explosive arrows, net arrows (they'd be Adamantium by the way since the ammo is, so uncuttable), web nets, web constructs and more. Daredevil dodges the arrows, so? We weren't aiming to hit him, just hit near him and freeze him in place or keep him trapped to the ground, or blow him up from behind as he thinks he's dodged successfully. We don't even need ricochet tbh. Also like to point out that with the Rocket Arrow, the range is far enough to hit your UAVs and even Deadshot.

7. Miniguns aren't accurate at long range. Either are toothpicks, obviously, but Bullseye makes it work. He's a marksman like no other and I have essentially 48 of him with Miniguns and powerful Sniper rifles taking out your team with ease. Deadshot's gonna be taken out by Bullseye, who's a much better shot, as will Bats, and Daredevil as explained before. Bats suit might add protection, but not against adamantium projectiles. He has to get to Taskmaster first.

8. Taskmaster is shown fighting 2 Captain America's at once and holding his own. That's 2 batmans and he did fine. I showed him taking entire teams of super powered avengers, and he did fine. He took on Iron Man AND Captain America, and did fine. His fighting skills clearly outweigh Batman's if he's constantly beating and hanging with people much better, faster, stronger, more durable, etc. Not to mention he can do his super-speed thing.

9. I need proof that the scans I used are from the upgrade. To my knowledge, that's all Gambit afterwards, he can still do it from range, just not New Son level. I also need proof that you can hit Wolverine who dodges bullets plenty on his own, and yet all of a sudden, now, with a speed boost, he's getting hit. prove you can hit Sabretooth who's tanked and used human shields to get past bullets, who's blitzed Wolverine, who now has a speed boost, prove you can hit him enough to put him down. Also I posted Wolverine's skeleton still moving after being dipped in lava. That'd be no brain, no organs, and yet he was still going. He's survived nukes, same situation. Wolverine can go without anything but his skeleton at times. Sabretooth has shown similar with the jet explosion feat, where he was burned down to the core and still going.

10. If the talisman can heal a hole in the heart, a hole in the brain is likely as well, not that Gambit will be hit, as said before with TK, and his reflexes. The talisman doesn't need conscious thought to use, it at times has activated on it's own with special circumstances (like the user being hurt). It'd be an auto heal, once again, not that Gambit needed it.

11. Spidey beat Daken. He had to adjust and just use Spidey Sense, now he knows that, the first half is irrelevant. Tasky beat Daken w/o his claws, not as good but still relevant. Wolverine beats him far more often than not and in this exact situation, Muramasa claws vs. Blade, he won. Now he has a speed boost. congratulations. And so you know, the talisman speculation was a deeper counter of a just in case scenario. Your UAV and sniping will kill literally 0 people on my team. 0.

12. Chaff grenades are essentially EMPs and should disrupt all EM vision of a T-sphere. The holograms will be run through at superspeed, along with the real people by Wolverine and Sabretooth, while Spidey does his agility thing, KOing everyone on your team in one hit or less. His webs will protect sora (make a protective orb) and will aid him in easily defeating any person he sees and any attacks/bullets he comes across. He's dodged bullets point blank, he can dodge yours from a range.

13. At the end of the day, Wolverine could easily use his super speed to locate Snake, tell him to spam nukes on the capital, as he speeds of with Sora, killing everyone except Gambit, Snake, Wolverine, Sora, and Sabretooth. It's not needed, but definitely a viable and easy to win (with infinite ammo spamming it) if backed into a corner. He could also operate it himself, and even use his super speed to save Spidey if need be, from it as well.

14. Still see no counter for Wolverine who's now exponentially faster, Sabretooth who's exponentially faster and stronger and more durable, and Gambit with TK and regeneration. I've seen nothing countered except "lol that won't work, Deadshot hits speedster!" when we both know, he's also missed and just saying that, isn't a viable counter.

15. I've seen literally no proof of any of your claims either.

EDIT: Forgot, Snake has Octocamo which renders him invisible to Thermal technology. So no go on seeing him in stealth mode.

#14 Posted by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire: I suppose I wasn't clear enough. Team Chemistry and Morality arguments can still be made. Without the Joker's Kitchen Sink, your team would be very much so open to these arguments. I wouldn't have put it at 3 points if it was useless.

Ultimately, this was less a ruling than it was an advisement. I am not saying that your arguments are invalid and I am not saying that his dismissal of your argument is valid. I am leaving the judgement on the validity of the argument in the hands of the judges. @darkraiden does need to make sure that he has posted enough of an argument to convince the judges that your argument is invalid.

If after this round you still feel as though it is not worth the points, I will allow you to switch things out. I am sorry for the difficulties that this has caused.

#15 Edited by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill

Thank you for the clarification. I probably overreacted, I'm happy to keep my Command Options as is for the duration of the tournament. I apologize for any inconvenience.

@darkraiden I'm going to put a number before each of my points, so you can reply to those you want to and we can see exactly which ones you're addressing in your final response.

Addressing your last statement first:

15. I've seen literally no proof of any of your claims either.

1. I don't usually post scans, because they're so easily abused. A good example of this is you posting the scans of Taskmaster vs Daken. That's an absurd thing to post in a debate between the two of them, and I explained why. But you had no idea what was going on in it, you only saw that 'Taskmaster won' and 'Daken's healing factor is slowed by heat.' If I were a little less knowledgeable on Daken, your false assertions would have been accepted as valid, which would have damaged the integrity of the debate. Even after I've explained it you're still ignoring most of the context, preferring instead to rely solely on what you see in the scans rather than discarding it as irrelevant. Without context, scans are useless and in fact detrimental, and that is unfortunately the way they are often used. I refuse to take part in such conduct, so I generally don't post scans. It's not like they add anything of value to a debate, anyway.

But since you seem upset by the lack of pretty pictures in my debate, I'll make sure to load my post with an excessive amount of them to help you feel better.

1. Your bullets are mach 7?

2. No, but Snake only dodged one such projectile. This is a totally different scenario.

Your bullets are so much faster than the bullets Wolverine have dodged that they compensate for the Rabbit Talisman speed boost?

3. I think you're overestimating the speed boost, but I'll get to that later. The point is as much the volume and accuracy of the fire as it is the velocity. The AC-130 is packing multiple rapid-fire high caliber guns, which will be able to drench the whole island in bullets. This will force your team to either focus on dodging or attempt to seek cover. Either way, they'll have to pay attention to the rain of bullets. That's when Deadshot, one of the best snipers in comics, gets to use his sniper rifle while they're distracted. But I don't really expect Wolverine to be taken down by bullets, his soaking feats are too good. He might be slowed down by them, but unless Deadshot gets an eyeshot they won't take him down. Which is why I listed a bunch of other ways to take him down.

You speak as if Wolverine and Sabretooth don't have speed boosts.

4. I don't really think either Wolverine or Sabretooth will be killed by the opening barrage, largely because of healing factors. Sabretooth's brain is more vulnerable, but even so I wouldn't be surprised if he survived the airstrike. I actually doubt he'll even get that far because he wont' survive Wolverine, but he might be able to survive the bullets. However, I have plenty of other ways to take them both down.

You speak as if TK can't form a protective shield and block bullets around Gambit,

5. When has the Rooster Talisman ever showed such an ability? I've been skimming episodes since our match started, and all I've seen is basic lifting feats. What feats do you have that back up the ability of the Rooster Talisman to create a TK shield strong enough to stand up to repeated hits by anti-armor ammunition from multiple directions?

and you speak as if Spidey hasn't tagged speedsters like Quicksilver and Speed Demon before.

6. He tagged Quicksilver by sticking out his arm and clotheslining him, because Piotr fights like an idiot. Before that, Spidey was getting blitzed pretty easily by a Quicksilver who was much slower than his modern incarnation. The only time I can remember Spidey tagging Speed Demon, the exact same thing happened. And Speed Demon was also able to blitz Superior Spider-Man without issue, which backs up that tagging him before wasn't really a reflex feat.

Just face it, your bullet barrage is utterly useless against this team.

7. The biggest problem with your line of reasoning is that you've only been able to make any sort of reasonable defense for your officers. Perhaps they can survive the attack, although I find it unlikely that none of them will be taken down, (especially Snake, since he'll be trying to stealth with his camo and not know that half of my team can detect him regardless), but even if they all survive the attack, your 48 infantry will not fare so well. Most of them should be taken out, which gives me a massive numbers advantage in mop-up and in taking down your surviving lieutenants. Your army is simply too densely packed into a location with negligible cover. You're being attacked from the air by the AC-130, hemmed in by missiles, flanked by airborne Deadshots and strafed by Archangel with his neurotoxin-coated feathers, hit from the north by more Deadshots, and hit from behind by ambushing speeder bikes.

The ambush is a lot more lethal than you've given in credit for. Not only does it add rapid blaster cannon fire to the crossfire, it comes from a direction your team is not paying attention to. Shriek can cancel the sounds of blaster fire, so your first warning will be when the blaster bolts rake through your team, killing any infantry they hit. Snake Eyes can use his Uzi to supplement the strafing runs with automatic bullets, and he's a very accurate shot. Deathstroke also has guns and his blast staff, and he's an even better shot. Shriek can use his suit to fire powerful sonic blasts, enough to destroy walls. Having that group speeding through your unprotected rear would rack up quite a few kills even if you weren't already being hit from two sides and above.

2. UAVs will be shot down with ease, Sniper rounds back in the day, with old school rifles have reached over 1 mile and a half. To say Snake, who's beaten the best Sniper in the world, and Bullseye/Taskmaster can't take down your UAVs all together is ridiculous.

8. But this is horizontally, not straight up, directly defying gravity. But either way, the UAVs can fire their payloads from 5 miles out, so that's not nearly enough range to stop them from doing their job. After they've fired the missiles, they will head straight for your team to divebomb, since they're unmanned and I don't need their scouting abilities. You might be able to hit them as they're coming in, but your rifles don't have nearly the stopping power to throw a 2000 pound aircraft off-course. They'll still crash into the island and explode beautifully.

9. And if Bullseye is looking at the sky through a scope, he's just leaving himself open to getting sniped by a Deadshot. You'll also have to deal with Deadshot removing your weapons from play. Floyd often goes for disarming shots, and is extremely good at it.

Stinger is a skilled mercenary with tech powerful enough to let him take on Superboy. Deadshot outdraws him and disarms him, twice.

He does the same thing to Deadline, a metahuman with enhanced stats and advanced tech who is regarded as one of the greatest assassins in the DCU. Deadshot casually dominates him, dodging his energy blasts and removing his gear.

Deadshot casually snipes someone with an assault rifle:

Deadshot non-lethally snipes a flying Enchantress from long range, unperturbed by the threat of death if he misses or kills her.

Did you see what Bullseye did with a toothpick from that range? He pierced a window and killed a woman.

10. "From that range?" He threw it 100 yards. UAVs aren't going to be attacking from 100 yards away. By the time they get 100 yards away, it will be far too late for a toothpick to change their flight paths, and they'll crash just as intended.

Read the scan: "from a hundred yards away"

Now it's adamantium, that's doing much more damage with much more range. Taskmaster gets this benefit.

11. Taskmaster doesn't have Adamantium Ammunition listed in his gear. Neither does Bullseye, for that matter. I'm assuming you spent the 10 MIA points on Adamantium Ammo for Bullseye, since you've mentioned it so often, but you don't have enough points for both Bullseye and Taskmaster to have Adamantium Ammunition.

3. Again, "Sniping" in this case means hiding and aiming. I don't know what your used to, but you can easily be shooting, notice a bullet coming, and dodge as they do many times in comics while attacking others.

12. Hiding will be impossible since you have no cover and my marksmen all have infrared targeting. Daredevils can also call out targets if necessary. If they're trying to hide, though, some of them will place themselves in positions where dodging isn't plausible, making them easier kills.

Hell Snake dodged a sniper round while just walking, then noticing the bullet and dodging. Same with the mach 7 railgun projectile. If you think someone who can dodge mach 7 with ease isn't gonna dodge your much, much slower bullets, barrage or not, you're sadly mistaken.

13. Out of curiosity, where are you getting your Mach 7 number? Is that in the game? The only reference I've been able to find for a mach 7 railgun projectile is a 33 megajoule launch by a Navy prototype railgun far larger than the man-portable one used against Snake. Is there any quantification of the speed of the projectile within the game itself?

And as I've said before, the volume of bullets combined with the marksmanship from multiple directions is what will give Snake problems, along with his misplaced sense of security because of his confidence in his cloaking device.

They know they're in war being attacked, they're not preparing for a picnic. Spidey's dodged more, and again could create a simple web shield around him and others to block said bullets and even missiles.

14. He has nothing on which to anchor such a web shield. The only structure on the island is the house, and destroying that is the first thing the AC-130 will do, since it contains your leader.

How do you account for the missiles being shot down by many projectiles?

15. None of your characters have shot anything moving in excess of mach 1, as far as I know. And while they're focused on shooting at the missiles, they leave themselves more vulnerable to sniper fire.

The missiles being webbed up before they get close to my team?

16. They're far faster than anything I've seen Spider-Man web up, (He didn't use webs against either of the speedsters you mentioned, for example), and a lot larger than any missiles I've seen him web, although I'm not the most avid Spider-Man reader. And they'll be hitting both sides of the island and in multiple places simultaneously, so Spidey can't get to them all. And again, weaving webs is a distraction from dodging bullets.

The UAVs being webbed up and brought down.

17. Like with the toothpicks, the UAVs will be way outside the range of the webs for most of their flight path. Only when they're about to crash into your team will they be within range of the webs. If Parker tries to dispense enough web to smother an airplane, he'll leave himself open to Deadshot, and he doesn't have any way to anchor a webbing net to catch the planes.

4. Deadshot's hit like 1 speedster ever.

18. He also could have shot Owen Mercer, but didn't because Owen was a teammate on the Suicide Squad. And 1 is still more speedsters than Bullseye has hit.

He's also missed Green Arrow constantly in a shoot out.

19. Wrong. He shot all four of Green Arrow's opening arrows, then got blinded. While blinded, he was still able to hit close enough that he got Ollie with collateral damage. When his vision came back, he shot Queen's bowstring and then shot another arrow out of the air. The only shots he missed were while blinded, stunned by sonics, and while his optics were still adjusting from the blinding. The only reason Green Arrow is alive is plot armor. If Deadshot shoots him instead of the bowstring, Ollie is dead. This isn't a bad showing for Lawton, I don't know why you try to keep using it as one. Scans:

Since Deadshot will be further away from your marksmen in this battle, he can shoot the flashbang arrow far enough away that it won't blind him, possibly setting it off soon enough that it hurts your team instead. He's no stranger to turning his opponents' weaponry against them:

He can do the same with explosive arrows and the sonic arrow.

20. Or Shriek can cancel out the sonic frequency, if need be.

Shriek explains his sound cancelling tech, with a quick demo. Watch from 0:00 to 0:25

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEBxjanOhJg

Shriek cancels a factory's-worth of noise, and then amplifies Batman's footsteps. Watch from 0:00 to 0:35

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYzJWkCjqnM

He's nearly died against Slade,

21. You mean the quickdraw where he matched a metahuman who has reflexes enhanced far above that of a human? And during that confrontation, he was able to take down that metahuman despite Deathstroke's armor and healing factor? And you're trying to play this off as a bad showing?( Also, Deadshot has a death wish and wants to be killed by someone better with a gun than he is. That's why he simply challenged Slade to a quickdraw instead of using cover or trying to dodge the bullets. However, because of the Joker's Kitchen Sink perk, his death wish won't exist in this match. So this showing is only relevant as a reflex feat, and it's a very good one.) Or perhaps you're referring to the time when he tricked Slade, unloaded into Deathstroke's chest, and left the Terminator himself for dead? Because that also happened.

he's utterly missed Batman who disappeared from his sight and more.

22. Batman reminds him of his older brother who he hero-worshipped, so he pulls his shots and doesn't actually try to hit Bruce.

So that's why he hasn't killed Bats. Not that it stops him from tagging Batman when he wants to. Like Bruce said, Floyd put 2 rounds in his chest earlier in that story. Or another example:

And he's had Batman at his mercy in other instances, most notably during his early appearances when he was strictly a Batman rogue.

Lowball harder.

5. You keep saying Sabretooth doesn't have adamantium anymore but at least several of those scans, he doesn't have it either. Not sure what the argument's about.

23. I simply take issue with the scans where he does have Adamantium, since they aren't necessarily representative of his current capabilities. I wouldn't mind so much if you specified which ones are when he was bonded and which aren't, but as it is you're trying to mislead voters again, which I find objectionable.

Do I need to show boneclaw Wolverine's regen feats to show that brainshots don't kill?

24. I would prefer you showing when boneclaw Wolverine stabs Sabretooth in the brain, KOing him for hours and causing long term changes in his personality. I don't have those scans, so if you want to post them, I would appreciate it. The fight is from Wolverine Volume 2, #90. The aftermath is seen in X-Factor. I do, however, have some scans of current Sabretooth getting taken down by penetrative damage. Wolverine doesn't press the advantage, but my team will have no such qualms.

25. And Deadshot knows how to deal with people who just won't die:

He also came across an Amazon with a healing factor at one point, and he didn't have much issue there, either.

She regenerates limbs, which means she has a healing ability at least comparable to Sabretooth's. But a quadruple tap to the forehead takes her down easy. His experience with healing factors will be valuable against your officers.

And how does being blown up to nearly the skeleton in a jet explosion NOT account for regenerating a brain? I posted the scans for a reason to show what Sabretooth can take.

26. Sabretooth was in much better shape after the crash than Logan was. Much of Logan's skeleton was showing, but only a little of Creed's. Nothing to show brain damage, certainly. His skull wasn't even showing, there was no indication his brain had been affected.

In the instances that I do know of where healers have specifically been brain-damaged, it's been very effective. Wolverine stabbing Sabretooth, which I mentioned earlier, and Daken was KO'd by Bucky shooting him in the head from behind. It was stated that he would have regenerated from it in a few minutes had the bullet not been carbonadium, but the shot itself was enough to KO him despite the fact that he's been nearly vaporized by explosions multiple times, instances which seem to be comparable to Sabretooth's jet explosion feat.

Regardless of your opinion, Ox talisman amps durability, so Sabretooth now has an extra layer essentially of durability to add to his regeneration. And extra strength to easily slice through your team.

27. I've never disputed that the Ox talisman amps durability. I've acknowledged the fact that it enhances blunt force durability to a fairly substantial degree. But I can't remember any feats of it amping penetrative durability, which is most of what my team uses. I don't disagree with the fact that his strength is amped, either.

And no Wolverine's not getting Sabretooth. Gambit has TK and more to separate them to different sides.

28. Not sure if you've read any comics with Wolverine or Sabretooth, but Gambit grabbing one of them isn't going to stop them from killing each other. First of all, can Gambit grab both of them with TK to separate them? I can't remember using the Rooster on multiple large objects at once. Second, what happens if he moves them apart? They just forget about each other? Wolverine says "well, it's not worth running 100 feet to attack the person I hate most in the world?" Gambit will have to continuously keep them apart, and I don't think he has the TK strength to do that. And having them trying to fight the whole time will mess with Spider-Man's and Taskmaster's heads, since Spidey kind of adores Logan and Taskmaster will be chafing enough under the restraints of being a subordinate as it is. Sabretooth and Wolverine will spend the whole fight trying to kill each other, and they have speed boosts to make it harder for Gambit to catch them. They aren't exactly going to be happy with Remy for trying to stop them from fighting, and since they're in charge of the army, the Bullseyes and Taskmasters will have to deal with contradictory orders from Creed, Logan, and Remy all at the same time. Not exactly a recipe for good teamwork. My point is, even if Gambit somehow manages to keep Logan and Creed from outright slaughtering each other, their feud is still going to tear your team apart.

6. Gambit has reacted to, dodged, blocked, etc. bullets with ease. Now he has a healing factor and TK and he suddenly fails against them? Explain that logic.

29. I would think you're tired of hearing it by now, but the logic is in the combination of volume and top tier marksmanship. The AC-130 is coating the army in lead, while the Deadshots and Archangel take out targets of opportunity with their sniper rifles, and then the Mobility force ambushes from behind. The Rooster Talisman's TK has no relevant showings against anything like a hail of bullets and the healing factor should be invalidated by headshots. If it's impossible to kill Gambit, then there's no point to the Dog Talisman granting immortality. A headshot should kill him, or at least be good for a KO. But again, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if most of your officers can survive the bullet rain. It's mostly your infantry that will go down.

And you say constantly Daredevil has Cap America shields. Guess what stops that? TK.

30. Gambit concentrates on that, he gets shot. Or the Daredevil being assaulted can richochet a billy club for a headshot. And the Rooster isn't used at any significant range, so he wouldn't even be able to try for a shield until after my team had closed much of the distance and the ranged battle was largely over.

Freeze Arrows, Explosive arrows, net arrows (they'd be Adamantium by the way since the ammo is, so uncuttable),

31. Freeze arrows aren't nearly as powerful as you're making them out to be. There's no reason they can't simply be blocked by a shield, since they don't have much AoE. All they would do is make the shield cold, and Daredevil wears gloves. (Also, your only Freeze Arrow scan is New-52, whereas all the others are Pre-52.) Explosive arrows aren't much better, since Cap blocks explosives with his shield all the time. Net arrows can be escaped from easily with wrist blades, or help from Batman's swords.

32. Deadshot was able to hit almost every one of Green Arrow's arrows in their fight, so he'll be able to take a lot of arrows out of the air. Just because they're adamantium doesn't mean they won't get redirected harmlessly away. And with his penchant for disarming, he'll shoot bows and bowstrings and quivers, along with shooting the archers themselves.

33. And Deadshot, Batman, and Daredevil all have good dodging feats, if worse comes to worst. A few scans for your perusal:

Deadshot: dodges a sniper round and headshots the sniper, dodges repeated blasts from Fire of JLA, JLI, and Checkmate fame, and dodges automatic gunfire from an impersonator. Final two scans, he dodges Marauder's automatic fire while killing people, all while blindfolded.

Daredevil: dodges machine gun fire at close range and oneshots his assailant with a billy club throw, dodges repeated fire from multiple weapons wielded by Punisher, closing the distance to get into h2h. (Punisher scans are swapped in order.)

Fights Deadpool: Disarms him, bullet dodges, showcased agility, and makes an impressive baton throw to trip up Wade.

Blocks projectiles from Bullseye and disarms him with a billy club throw, blocks throwing stars from Bullseye again, swats away two bullets with one swing. This is all with a slim billy club. Imagine him with a shield that covers half his body.

Batman: dodges lightspeed blasts from Doctor Light, dodges a helicopter-mounted gun designed to fire 5,000 rounds per minute, shows of his agility in close range dodging, casually ducks under three bullets, and threads his way through a laser grid.

All this to say that if they want to avoid some arrows, they'll have no trouble doing so.

web nets, web constructs and more.

34. Relying an awful lot on Spider-Man making web nets, aren't you? He can't be everywhere at once, especially when he's constantly trying to dodge gunfire from several directions.

Daredevil dodges the arrows, so? We weren't aiming to hit him, just hit near him and freeze him in place or keep him trapped to the ground, or blow him up from behind as he thinks he's dodged successfully.

35. Daredevil's radar sense lets him predict the trajectory of projectiles as they're being fired, which is why he can deflect bullets so accurately. He'll know if you're aiming to hit the ground right beneath him, and so he can get out of the way. He also has radar sense and massively enhanced hearing and sense of smell to detect which arrows are being fired when. If you're trying to get cute with a time bomb arrow or a freeze arrow, he can catch it and throw it back either before the the timer goes off or before it hits anything to detonate. Radar Sense makes this strategy pretty much useless.

Daredevil and Batman catching arrows:

We don't even need ricochet tbh.

36. Not really an ability unique to your team, anyway. Deadshot can ricochet bullets and Daredevil can ricochet his billy clubs. (Also a nice bullet-blocking feat for Daredevil.)

Also like to point out that with the Rocket Arrow, the range is far enough to hit your UAVs and even Deadshot.

37. You mean this rocket arrow?

Because that's one of Hawkeye's trick arrows. I've never seen Green Arrow use one, and I wasn't able to find any record of him doing so when I Googled around for it. Are you sure that Green Arrow has these? Because you don't get Hawkeye's trick arrows.

7. Miniguns aren't accurate at long range. Either are toothpicks, obviously, but Bullseye makes it work. He's a marksman like no other and I have essentially 48 of him with Miniguns and powerful Sniper rifles taking out your team with ease.

38. None of your characters have the strength to keep a minigun on target. There's a reason they're vehicle mounted, and it's because they're heavy and kick like a mule on steroids. Bullseye doesn't have peak human strength. He doesn't even have olympic level. His bio lists him as having "athlete" strength. By comic book standards, that's positively scrawny. He'll have trouble even holding a minigun, much less firing it in the direction he wants it to go. Taskmaster is stronger, but he also doesn't have the same level of accuracy feats. A minigun is simply not an accurate weapon, and Bullseye is not the character to make it so.

Deadshot's gonna be taken out by Bullseye, who's a much better shot,

39. This is absurd. Bullseye is better with random objects, yes, although Deadshot is no slouch with those. But with a gun in his hands, Deadshot has feats Bullseye can't even dream of. I've posted some incredible showings, and I've got a lot more. For example, he shoots the seams of bulletproof armor while it's in mid flight, and then shoots the cracks once armors have been compromised by extreme temperatures:

Bullseye gets schooled by Daredevil all the time, who blocks and dodges his projectiles all day. But even though he has a compulsion not to kill Batman, Deadshot has tagged him repeatedly, pretty much whenever he wants.

Floyd has taken down a team of nine metahuman villains, solo, even though they had him trapped and had a battle plan to beat him. He's also soloed most of the Suicide Squad.

Show me anything Bullseye has done to compete with this:

Deadshot's feats with guns are more numerous and more impressive than Bullseye's. There is an argument to be made that Lester is Floyd's equal or even superior in overall marksmanship, but with guns, Deadshot is clearly superior. Since guns are what are being used here, the advantage is Lawton's.

I'm not trying to downplay Bullseye, he's an excellent shot with most anything, and one of the nastier street level villains to go up against. But to say he's a 'much better shot' than Deadshot is nothing more than an insult to Lawton.

as will Bats, Bats suit might add protection, but not against adamantium projectiles, and Daredevil as explained before. He has to get to Taskmaster first.

40. Batman won't have to worry about most of the adamantium projectiles, at least for a while. The front rank of a dozen Daredevils can block any and all bullets and toothpicks that are directed at the Main force, and most of the trick arrows. Daredevils may occasionally have to dodge trick arrows rather than engaging with them, but most of the arrows can be shot out of the air by Deadshots. If a Daredevil does have to dodge some, he can catch them and throw them back. And if they somehow get through the rank of Murdocks, Batman has arrow catching feats and has deflected bullets with his gauntlets, so he can catch the arrows and throw them away, too. Not a problem.

41. And even though he doesn't have batarangs here, Batman still isn't totally useless at range. He has his Grapnel Gun, with which he is an absolute expert, and he's no stranger to using it in combat.

Reading right to left: He incapacitated a Man-Bat-Enhanced Zsasz in one shot, despite the Man-Bat serum enhancing Zsasz' speed and strength. Bruce catches a fleeing thug with one shot, tangling him up and bringing him down. Batman tags a Ninja Man-Bat in flight, then yanks the 600-pound superhuman out of the air. Finally, and most impressively, Batman avoids bullets from David Cain while in freefall, catches Cain's hands with the grapnel gun, and rescues both Cain and the Cop.

It may not be a sniper rifle, but Batman's expertise with the grapnel gun is still enough to make it a factor in the ranged engagement, at the very least forcing some of your attackers to dodge, momentarily stopping them from attacking.

42. When my main force closes the distance to the point where hand to hand becomes plausible, the Daredevils will split into pairs 6 pairs, each with a Deadshot and 2 Batmans. The other three Batmans will be with Prometheus.

So within the units, I still have the cover of two Daredevils with indestructible shields, and a Deadshot for cover fire and to take down arrows. The units will pursue any knots of 3-5 enemy infantry, with the intent of engaging them in melee combat. With cover fire from Deadshot and shields in front, they should be able to close distances pretty consistently.

43. Shooting Daredevil before he closes on your marksmen isn't an easy proposition, I assure you. Here he detects a sniper aiming at him, disappears and closing the distance almost instantly, repeatedly disarms the sniper, and takes him down with a pressure point.

Daredevil's engagements with Bullseye almost exclusively end in hand-to-hand, and if Bullseye can't keep Murdock away when Matt has less gear and no cover fire, he certainly won't be able to do it here.

8. Taskmaster is shown fighting 2 Captain America's at once and holding his own. That's 2 batmans and he did fine.

44. But let's look at the whole fight. I'll post the scans for reference:

He only engages both of them in the two panels on the second page. After that, Steve knee-strikes him in the gut and leaves. Tasky never went hand-to-hand with both of them at the same time. And as both Steve and Taskmaster note, Tasky has the advantage of having studied both Bucky and Rogers. He knows many of Cap's moves and quite a few of Bucky's, so he knows what to expect and how to counter. He doesn't have that luxury with Batman, and he's never faced an opponent who fights like Bruce since Wayne created his own hybrid fighting style unique to himself. And finally, Taskmaster was geared up with a sword and shield, which he won't have here.

This isn't a bad feat for Taskmaster by any means, but saying he held his own against two Captain Americas at once is overselling it a bit. (Also, Bucky isn't on the same skill level as Batman, regardless.)

I showed him taking entire teams of super powered avengers, and he did fine. He took on Iron Man AND Captain America, and did fine. His fighting skills clearly outweigh Batman's if he's constantly beating and hanging with people much better, faster, stronger, more durable, etc.

45. And I can post scans of Batman soloing most of the Justice League, including things like one-shotting Wonder Woman and taking down Flash. He's stomped Cheetah three times, even though she consistently gives Flash and Wonder Woman problems. He took down Sela, a Wonder Woman villain, with one hit. He's oneshotted Metallo, a Superman villain. He single-handedly killed and Amazo in the Watchtower, took down an Amazo prototype in Gotham with Nightwing's help, and was able to temporarily defeat Kid Amazo singlehandedly, causing KA ot retreat. He took down more than a dozen Manbats (flight, super strength, claws, enhanced reflexes, enhanced durability) while completely unarmed and in his Bruce Wayne persona. Taking down groups of metas isn't something that Batman struggles to do, either, even when they're much, much better, faster, stronger, more durable, etc than Taskmaster. But that stuff isn't really relevant, since that's not at all the kind of threat Taskmaster and Batman face in each other. Far more important are their showings against other street levellers, and their relevant hand-to-hand abilities. Batman is also so learned in Martial Arts styles that he can recognize the style his enemy is using as the fight is going on, which will be useful against Taskmaster.

I've gone into a lot of depth about why Batman should beat Taskmaster here, and I'll touch on it a little more later, but I've already made most of my case.

46. Daredevil, however, I haven't gone over in as much depth. Tasky and Daredevil are pretty much even in physical stats. Both are peak human in strength, but don't really use strength much. Both dodge bullets with ease. Both have reacted to bullets, although Daredevil does it much more often. Both have the toughness to take quite a beating. Daredevil's advantages lie in his radar sense and his equipment. Radar Sense lets him keep much better track of the battlefield, and even gives him a low-level form of movereading by tracking his opponent's heartbeat and muscle contractions. His most important equipment bonus is, of course, the shield. This allows him to block most of the blows Taskmaster can throw, as well as any projectiles he tries to use, and it also amplifies Murdock's already impressive striking power. In addition, he has his billy clubs, which are a good striking weapon, an effective projectile, and have a cord which he can use to trip and wrap and incapacitate. Finally, he has wrist blades to add slicing damage to his possible output. With Joker venom bloodlusting him, he won't hesitate to use the blades in lethal fashion.

Taskmaster and Daredevil have met before, interestingly enough. Scans:

After a nice demonstration of the billy club, Daredevil and Taskmaster are pretty evenly matched for several pages, before Daredevil tricks Tasky and gets him KO'd by a car. A bloodlusted Daredevil with better gear would doubtless be more effective, and probably have the edge over Taskmaster without resorting to outsmarting him.

47. When it comes to outsmarting and trickery, nobody is better than Batman. He's outsmarted the Key, (a superhuman escape artist), tricking him into entering an inescapable trap of Batman's own design. He's tricked Metron, the smartest of the New Gods, into turning to human form, at which point Bruce punched him out. He's outsmarted the Spectre, he's outsmarted Joker when the clown was omnipotent, and he makes a career out of outsmarting geniuses like Riddler, Ra's al Ghul, and Hugo Strange. He even outsmarted the Sensei, arguably the best martial artist in the DCU, by fighting effectively against him despite taking tons of punishment and then manuevering the battle so that he was able to knock Sensei into a fountain filled with holy water that would be his defeat. Taskmaster is nowhere near the level of intelligence that Batman routinely outwits, and his relative lack of smarts is just another weakness for the Bat to exploit.

48. Taskmaster has one last disadvantage against both Batman and Daredevil, and it is a big one: pressure points. With barely a touch, both Bruce and Matt are capable of shutting down limbs, paralyzing, or even killing an opponent. And with both of them bloodlusted, trying to kill as fast as possible, they won't hesitate to use these techniques.

Daredevil explains his knowledge of nerve strikes, paralyzes a policeman with a jab, overwhelms Punisher's ridiculous pain tolerance by taking out his arm, takes down an opponent with a move that can easily kill, and oneshots Mister Hyde, a 75 tonner with durability to match. (Scans are left to right.)

Batman is also extremely skilled with nerve strikes. Reading from right to left: Nightwing mentions that he knows every possible nerve strike, he interrogates a villain and describes the levels of pain he can inflict, he oneshots with a jab, oneshots again, 3 pokes to KO a bouncer, paralyzes Green Arrow's arm, and demonstrates a pair of lethal strikes.

Taskmaster doesn't have a sword or shield to keep his opponents at a distance, and both Daredevil and Batman can shut him down with a single touch. In his fight with Taskmaster, Daredevil was able to land multiple strikes. When bloodlusted, these strikes will be targeted at nerve clusters to shut down Taskmaster as quickly as possible. Taskmaster doesn't try to dance around street levellers, and he doesn't have the speed advantage to do it effectively here, anyway. Batman and Daredevil will land hits, and they'll be either blades or nerve strikes, taking Taskmaster apart with precision and without mercy.

Not to mention he can do his super-speed thing.

49. Which let him catch a bullet, a very impressive feat. Batman, however, is no stranger to beating opponents with superhuman speed. Zeiss is a cyborg assassin whose perceptions are so advanced that he sees the world in slow motion. He extensively studies Batman's combat techniques to get another edge over him, but despite his advantages, in their first two meetings Batman stalemates him. In their third, Bruce takes him down with an impressive display of skill, tactics, and pain tolerance.

Bruce defeats Zeiss again in their final encounter, but he used gadgets instead of h2h, so I won't bother posting it.

Zeiss is hardly the only fast martial artist Batman has fought, however. Even discounting metahumans, he was able to fight evenly with Cassandra Cain, a character who absolutely toys with bullets and moves in bursts of near-bullet speed. She also has body language reading which lets her predict an opponent's moves almost perfectly, something Taskmaster cannot, and she's even demonstrated the same move-copying ability Taskmaster has, all backed by the striking power to oneshot a metahuman. But Batman was able to counter her moves and take her down with a nerve strike.

In a later fight with Batgirl, when she was more experienced after training and working with the Bat Family for several months and was given a drug by Doctor Death that made her willing to kill without affecting her skill, Batman was able to stalemate her, and later reveals that he was in control of the fight the whole time. (Fight is 20 pages, so I'm not going to post scans. It's from Batgirl #50.)

He's also defeated Azrael during Jean Paul's tenure as Batman, when Valley had a slew of advanced gear and gadgets while Bruce had none. Despite the massive gear edge, Valley's multi-ton strength and all-around superhuman stats, and his high level of skill and years of training, Batman still beat him down using just his greater skill and intelligence. (Not posting scans because it's almost 30 pages. Different parts of the fight are shown in Batman #510 and Shadow of the Bat #30.)

All of these characters are superhumanly fast. They can do everything in a fight at super speed. Taskmaster, on the other hand, can only do a very small selection of moves at superspeed, the ones he's watched at double speed. This has only been demonstrated for a tiny subset of his fighting skill, meaning that if he tries to use double speed, most of his skill will go out the window. He beat someone with no suggestion of training who didn't demonstrate any martial arts knowledge. It's not much of a gamechanger, since Taskmaster is sacrificing his most important advantage, skill, for the speed increase.

And even though Batman shouldn't struggle against the speed boost, Taskmaster would be rather foolish to use double time, anyway, since it exhausts hima dn more than a few seconds of it tears his body apart. He can't go all out in such a way here, since he's fighting a prolonged battle, not a single one-vs-one engagement.

9. I need proof that the scans I used are from the upgrade.

50. I don't own any of the Official Handbooks to give the official definition of Gambit's powers, but I know the source of most of your scans and I can pretty much prove it. Although I don't own the New Son arc, I was able to track down this website which categorizes most of Remy's impressive showings along with the issue numbers in which they appear.

I'm going to repost the scans you've posted which actually show Remy charging objects from a distance:

  1. Uncanny X-Men 313: Gambit charged the anchor and then Storm hit it with lightning, which is why it's no longer attached to the ship and why it's yellow instead of purple. No charging from a distance involved.
  2. Uncanny X-Men 266: Charges a plate. This one seems to have something to do with his eyes, but since he's also holding it in his hands, it's hardly definitive. It's also only a couple months after Gambit's introduction, so writers and artists didn't have as firm a grasp on his powers and how to draw them. It's very ambiguous at best.
  3. Gambit #22: Gambit charges a balcony. Gambit was upgraded here, as this is during the New Son arc.
  4. Gambit #19: Gambit uses his powers to blow up part of a collapsed building in order to escape. Also from the New Son arc.
  5. Gambit #23: Gambit blows up an Ego Spore. Late in the New Son arc.
  6. Gambit #16: Gambit fights off Batroc the Leaper, who had been hired by New Son to assassinate him. Obviously, this is also from the New Son arc.

So of those 6 scans, 1 of them has nothing to do with distance charging, 1 of them is ambiguous at best, and the other 4 are from the New Son arc. At the end of the New Son arc, this happens:

"I released all of my newfound powers. Felt somethin' inside my head scream an' die. Let every erg of biokinetic energy flood out of me...an' into him!"

Gambit's powers were enhanced by Mister Sinister when Sinister implanted extra brain matter in Remy's head. Gambit had to use up all of it up to take down New Sun, and he feels it die. So all of those New Son arc showings are no longer valid for his current version, which is the one in this battle. So all you've got is one showing from 23 years ago when Gambit had barely been introduced, and where he's actually holding the object he's charging. Forgive me if I'm not exactly blown away by your evidence.

To my knowledge, that's all Gambit afterwards, he can still do it from range, just not New Son level.

51.

...Not a single one of those scans was of Post-New Son Gambit. The UXM ones were from 1990 and 1994, respectively, and New Son was in 2000. "To my knowledge, that's all Gambit afterwards." Seriously, dude?

I also need proof that you can hit Wolverine who dodges bullets plenty on his own, and yet all of a sudden, now, with a speed boost, he's getting hit.

52. This is literally impossible to prove, since Wolverine has never had the Rabbit Talisman in continuity, or any other speed boost, as far as I know. (Maybe when he was infected by the symbiote in Carnage USA? Although I don't remember Carnage amping his victims in that story, so probably not.) I've made my argument on this score, and more importantly I've given you I think 8 counters to Wolverine that are unrelated to bullets and which you haven't rebutted.

prove you can hit Sabretooth who's tanked and used human shields to get past bullets, who's blitzed Wolverine, who now has a speed boost, prove you can hit him enough to put him down.

53. This is much the same as above. Sabretooth has never had a speed boost, so there aren't any showings to accurately divine his performance with one. With regards to human shields, there are no civilians here. The thought of Sabretooth grabbing a Taskmaster to block bullets is highly entertaining, though, and not really out of character, especially since Sabretooth will hate any team with Wolverine on it. As for taking him down, I've brought up three instances of healers being put down by brain trauma, including one of Sabretooth himself. I've showed Deadshot taking down a healer by repeated headshots and him decapitating a vampire with bullets. Sabretooth is excellent against blunt trauma, but handgun bullets penetrate him pretty consistently. Deadshot is using much more powerful bullets, and Sabretooth really isn't that great against penetrative damage. I already posted Wolverine dominating him in a single page using his claws, but here's a couple showings against swords:

And a .50 cal bullet is going to do a lot more damage than that. Penetrative damage is effective against Sabretooth, and I have a lot of ways to deal that damage. But even if bullets aren't effective, I've listed several other counters for Sabretooth. Pretty much everything I can do to Wolverine will be effective against Creed as well, and Victor's vulnerability to decapitation and dismemberment makes him an easier mark than Logan.

54. I'd also like to make one more comment about this speed boost you've said so much about. Here's a video of the Fancy Feet in action, actually the one you already posted.

Watch from 15:46 to 16:04. (10 seconds before you specified.)

Omi and Jack Spicer are normally pretty evenly matching in speed, but after Jack uses the Fancy Feet, he has a clear advantage. Even so, Omi is able to react to and block his first attempt at a blitz, and dodge another attack after taking a couple of hits. The Fancy Feet don't even enhance Jack to a level where Omi can't react to him; they simply aren't that big of an amp. Will Sabretooth be faster? Yes. Will he be as fast as Spider-Man, even? Probably not.

Also I posted Wolverine's skeleton still moving after being dipped in lava. That'd be no brain, no organs, and yet he was still going. He's survived nukes, same situation. Wolverine can go without anything but his skeleton at times.

55. I haven't been able to track down the issue number for the molten metal feat, but the Nuke feat is from Venom: Run, which was published in 2004. The other famous instance of Wolverine regenerating from a skeleton is when Nitro vaporized him in Wolverine #48, which was published in early 2007. Your jet explosion feat is also from early 2007, during Jeph Loeb's run on Wolverine. The reason this is important is what happened in late 2007, during Wolverine issues #57-61. The story arc is entitled "Logan Dies." Obviously, Wolverine dies in the story, and he goes to a sort of limbo where he fights Lazear, the Angel of Death. This also happened when Nitro vaporized him. It's revealed that the reason Wolverine is able to regenerate from such damage is that when he actually dies, he is able to fight the Angel of Death for the right to return to life. This time, he loses the will to live before he dies and things don't go properly. Long story short, Doctor Strange gets involved and Wolverine is returned to life, but without the privilege to fight the Angel of Death. So he is no longer capable of surviving in those situations where he should truly be dead.

Because of this, I assume the lava/molten metal feat is pre-2007, or else it has to be disregarded as inconsistent with Logan's character development. Much like with Gambit, you're trying to pass of high end feats that have been invalidated by later occurrences. I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to do so.

Sabretooth has shown similar with the jet explosion feat, where he was burned down to the core and still going.

56. As I said above, there is no indication that Sabretooth was reduced to a skeleton, or anything close. His skull wasn't even exposed. There isn't really much reason to assume brain damage, especially when a claw to the brain has KO'd Sabretooth in the past.

10. If the talisman can heal a hole in the heart, a hole in the brain is likely as well, not that Gambit will be hit, as said before with TK, and his reflexes. The talisman doesn't need conscious thought to use, it at times has activated on it's own with special circumstances (like the user being hurt). It'd be an auto heal, once again, not that Gambit needed it.

57. If the Horse Talisman was actually able to heal a character from brain-death, there would be no need for the Dog Talisman. It doesn't seem consistent with the show. But even if that were the case, a headshot is still going to KO Gambit while he heals, and he can be taken out by Muramasa Claws while he's down, decapitated, or just shot a bunch more in the head to keep him from waking up. This is of course assuming that he is indeed shot in the head, which I understand you disagree with.

11. Spidey beat Daken. He had to adjust and just use Spidey Sense, now he knows that, the first half is irrelevant.

58. Only if he knows it's Daken. A T-Sphere can be used to make him invisible, as I've mentioned before, which would stop Spidey from identifying him as Wolverine's son. And as I've also said before, there's a lot of dangerous stuff going on. Parker's Spider-Sense has to keep him aware of bullets from multiple directions, billy club ricochets -- which have tripped him up before --, speeder bikes and their blaster cannons, the various hand-to-hand fights that are going on around him and threaten incidental injury, and more. His spider sense will be going crazy, and he'll be hard-pressed to avoid all of the bullets, much less keep perfect track of someone who can disappear at will. When he fought Daken the first time, all he had to pay attention to was Daken. If he only pays attention to Daken here, he'll get shot. There's too much going on for him to track one person with Spider Sense. And Daken won't be holding back, unlike last time. He'll have his claws out and be going for killshots.

Tasky beat Daken w/o his claws, not as good but still relevant.

59. Do you actually read my posts and consciously ignore the content, or are you just skimming and don't know what I've said? Here, I'll quote it for you.

@esquire said:

If you'd read the story, which you obviously haven't, you would know that Daken is high and hallucinating from a superpowered drug called Heat. His healing factor is barely functioning, he's not popping his claws because there's a clawed murderer running around and he would be labelled prime suspect, he can't trust his senses because of the hallucinogen, and he isn't even trying to win this 'fight.' He lets Taskmaster kill the gang members and stab him so that he can fake his death and run away with a huge stash of drug money. Seriously, anyone with knowledge of Taskmaster or Daken would know that this isn't a usable showing for either of them.

Seriously, of the four points that make this showing irrelevant, you ignored the three most important ones in favor of him not using his claws.

1. Daken is hallucinating and can't trust his senses. He doesn't know what's real and what's not. You think that makes a difference in a fight? It actually does. A big one. It helps if you can be sure your opponent exists, and that he's attacking you when you think he is.

2. Daken's healing factor is barely functioning. In a normal scenario, Daken can tank an explosion that blows up a house and walk away without issue. Here, he can barely soak more damage than a normal human. That also makes a pretty big difference in a fight.

3. And the big one: Daken isn't trying to fight Taskmaster. He's trying to fake his death. It's not just that Daken is holding back, he's not trying to win the fight at all. This is a really big deal. If Daken's goal is to get 'killed,' then he's not going to fight at his best, or really even fight at all. Taskmaster beat him because Daken wanted him to do so. This isn't a fight at all, much less one that can be used to say Taskmaster beats Daken.

Wolverine beats him far more often than not

60. Of the four fights they've had, Daken has had the edge in 2 and Wolverine has had the edge in 2. In another encounter, Daken oneshotted Wolverine in one page when Logan wasn't expecting him to attack. So Wolverine hardly beats him "far more often than not." I'm curious to know where you're getting your 'facts.'

and in this exact situation, Muramasa claws vs. Blade, he won. Now he has a speed boost.

61. But that wasn't Daken fighting smart and trying to kill. He holds back against Logan, because deep down he cares about his father. Here, he's bloodlusted because of the Joker venom, so he won't have any such qualms. Now that he's seen what happens when he goes up against the Muramasa Blade, he'll know better than to engage Wolverine head-on, like he did in that fight. (It wasn't really even a fight. It was only a couple of blows, very little skill was showcased on either side. Wolverine took advantage of Daken not being adamantium-bonded, and now that Daken knows that strategy, he can avoid such a direct strength-to-strength confrontation.) Daken will use his disappearing trick to avoid Wolverine's attacks and take Logan down with his Muramasa Claws. It's worked before, so when Daken isn't holding back the M-Claws, he should be able to take Wolverine down pretty easily.

(First two are Daken holding back the M-Claws, second pair is him using his disappearing trick against Wolverine.)

And in addition, by the time things go hand-to-hand, I expect to have a substantial numbers advantage. If Daken is backed by a couple of Snake Eyes' or Batmans, he'll have a much better chance of taking down Logan.

congratulations.

62. Thank you!

And so you know, the talisman speculation was a deeper counter of a just in case scenario. Your UAV and sniping will kill literally 0 people on my team. 0.

I'm not going to get into how horrifically I think you're lowballing Deadshot, but for the record I do think you're massively lowballing Deadshot. However, just for the sake of being thorough, let's examine the battle if my UAVs and AC-130 are magically eliminated, and my Aerial Force just stays in cover and doesn't shoot anybody.

63. At the start of the battle, Wolverine and Sabretooth's enhanced senses will let you locate my Main Force and my Aerial Force. They would likely be able to identify Daredevil and Archangel from previous experience, but outside of that, all the characters are from the DCU and so would be unknown to your team since none of them are DC characters. My Mobility Force would get into position undetected because of the various cloaking mechanisms which I've already explained, so your team would be under the impression that they were facing a much smaller force than their own. Since I've only got 7 characters in my Aerial Force and 34 in my Main Force, your team would more than likely send a large majority of their number to attack my Main Force, while leaving 5-10 soldiers behind to defend against the threat of Archangel's mysterious task force. This isn't a very sophisticated strategy, but Gambit's not a very sophisticated tactician.

64. Faced with the majority of your team attacking at once, my Main Force will focus on staying defensive. The Daredevils will make a shield wall, shield on one arm, billy club in the other hand, blocking any and all projectiles aimed at them. Deadshots will focus on suppressing fire, laying down large amounts of bullets in accurate patterns to keep as many as possible of your infantry focused on dodging rather than shooting. Batmans will use their grapnel guns to do the same thing, while catching any trick arrows that the Daredevils dodge. Prometheus will fire at targets of opportunity using his normal bullets. They'll move slowly towards your team, sticking to cover as much as possible to maximize their defensive capacity.

65. While this engagement is happening, Prometheus and Deathstroke will be in constant discussion over their radios, coordinating the best possible moment for an ambush. Once your attacking team is sufficiently separated from your small defensive force, my Mobility Force will sweep silently in from your rear, using blaster cannons, bullets, and tank-destroying T-Sphere blasts to take down the unsuspecting force monitoring Archangel. With this accomplished silently because of Shriek, most of your main force will be unaware it occurred at all. As soon as your defenders are killed, Archangel and his Deadshots will move out of cover and open fire on your main force from their left flank, while the Mobility Force ravages them from their rear. They won't know what's going on until many of them have been wounded or killed, and even once they realize they're being attacked from three sides, they really can't do anything about it. You have no defensive positions or options, all your team can do is try to shoot in all three directions at once before they all get shot to death. But being attacked from three sides is not conducive to living very long, so they won't fare all that well in this attempt, especially since most of their targets can block bullets and the few that can't are riding vehicles capable of flying at 90 or 300 mph.

As an example of the power of a T-Sphere's blast, here it is oneshotting a tank:

66. -- You might claim that the ambush will be unsuccessful because your team will leave a few people to guard the other entrance to the island, but there are three problems with this as a counter.

First, you have no idea that there are any other attackers coming. You have no reason not to trust Wolverine's senses, and he's been able to locate everyone else on the battlefield. There's no reason to suspect he missed someone, much less a dozen mounted soldiers. With a large force attacking one side of the island and no indication of forces even available to attack the other side, it would be foolish of Gambit to commit any soldiers, much less a large number, to defend against an attack he has every reason to believe won't be coming.

Second, any defenders you were to station there would be focused on the bridge and the terrain just past it, monitoring the opposite side of the field from where the battle is taking place. Without watching to know it's coming, they'll have no way to react to my Aerial Force Deadshots sniping them in the head. I have six available Deadshots who can each take a shot at once. There is hardly any reason for Gambit to post a single guard on that side, much less more than six. All defenders posted on the south bridge should be taken unawares by bullets to the backs of their heads. Even if someone sees the Deadshots break from cover, you have no communications devices to let the bridge defenders go. Anyone you post there will get killed by sniper fire.

Third and lastly, the Mobility Force's speeder bikes aren't limited to traveling over land. They can fly 30 feet in the air, plenty of height to cross the surrounding waters and enter the island from a different direction, probably the west side, where they could ambush the bridge defenders and then continue on to attack from the rear as planned. Unless you guard every part of the island, the speeder bikes can get in. And you don't have the manpower to do such a thing and still fight a pitched battle against my Main Force. So posting guards won't do anything but hurt your team's chances at damaging my Main Force.--

67. As soon as the Mobility Force begins attacking your main force from the rear, Daken and Deathstroke will unleash their T-Spheres at 14 miles per second, greater than mach 66, to obliterate your officers. Daken's nose will let him pinpoint Snake and all of your other officers will be plainly visible, so targeting won't be an issue. None of your officers can dodge a homing projectile moving at even half that speed, and the impact will vaporize most of their body mass on contact. Spider-Man and Snake will be killed instantly. Gambit and Sabretooth will likely be as well, or at the very least KO'd for a long time. Wolverine's adamantium skeleton gives him the best chance to survive, but the impact should liquefy his brain, something which post-Logan Dies Wolverine should be killed by. Regardless, Daken will use his speeder bike to quickly reach each of your officers and decapitate them with his Muramasa Claws, killing them for certain. (Scans left to right.)

68. Ambushed and attacked from three sides, and without your officers to keep some semblance of order, the Taskmaster will splinter and lose any coordination they had. The Bullseyes will handle things a little better, but not much. Your team will stop fighting as a unit and your infantry will engage essentially at random, getting cut down by the coordinated efforts of my team, thanks to Joker's Kitchen Sink and our radio communications.

69. After your officers are killed, my Main Force will split into groups as I explained above, 2 Daredevils, 2 Batmans, and a Deadshot. They'll chase down your remaining Bullseyes and Taskmasters as they are trying to avoid Archangel's sweeps, Deadshot's sniping, and the speeder bikes strafing them. Deadshot will excel in this situation, his draw speed and rapid-fire accuracy lending themselves perfectly to fighting groups of enemies. Here, for example, he gunblitzes 5 thugs before they can react and in the space between their leader's words. After tanking a bullet to the head, (using the same helmet he has here), Floyd makes a nice disarming shot to end the confrontation. (Right to left)

And in an even more impressive showing, he takes down a pair of armed gangs by himself, showing impressive rate of fire, accuracy, and some solid dodging and tactical skill. (Right to left)

He'll have a field day with the chaos and scattered enemies, forcing them to either focus solely on evasion or get gunned down.

70. Daken and Deathstroke will ram their speeder bikes repeatedly into Bullseyes at 300 miles per hour, smashing Lesters and their organs to a pulp while my officers have healing factors and/or armor keeping them intact. When the bikes are no longer functional, Daken will dismount, use the last T-Sphere to cloak himself from detection, and run around slaughtering your team while undetectable. Deathstroke will dismount and use his superior gear and stats to run around slaughtering people.

71. Prometheus will take the remaining 3 Batmans and go hunting for infantry to kill. One of his suit's functions is to create disguises so authentic that he was able to fool even the super senses of a Kryptonian with one. He'll use it to appear as Gambit, confusing your already splintered team as they try to figure out if their leader betrayed them. When they come across any of your infantry, things will go badly for your team. Prometheus is the deadliest martial artist on the battlefield, having the skills of the top 30 fighters in the entire DCU. In addition to this, he's packing loads of powerful weaponry, tech so well built that he was able to walk through a Justice League team that included Supergirl, Donna Troy, Jay Garrick, Red Tornado, Firestorm, and Shade, as well as several other heroes. Finally, Prometheus' suit contains ways to disrupt his opponents' cognitive functions, destroying their combat effectiveness. Backed by a trio of bloodlusted Batmans, Prometheus is a force to be reckoned with indeed. (Right to left)

72. Shriek will orbit the battlefield, staying away from direct confrontation. He'll scramble any attempts at your team coordinating by blocking out Bullseye's and Taskmaster's voices, and he'll take potshots with sonic blasts to damage your infantry and disrupt their brains.

73. -- Another option my team has: Before the Mobility Force springs its ambush, any one of the members can take his speeder bike to the house containing Sora, enter, open the room, and kill your leader for the win. Deathstroke and Shriek both have the power to blow through walls, so if it doesn't have a door to open, they can still get in and kill your leader for the victory. Daredevil or Daken can figure out exactly where Sora is, and your team won't know anyone is attacking your leader until they blow the wall, and by then it will be far too late to stop them. --

12. Chaff grenades are essentially EMPs and should disrupt all EM vision of a T-sphere.

74. While they might be able to temporarily disrupt th T-Spheres' integrated sensors, the Spheres themselves are controlled mentally by whomever they're assigned to. Daken and Deathstroke will be able to sense your officers regardless of chaff grenades, so they can keep the T-Spheres on target by themselves.

But Snake won't know the Mobility Force exists until it's attacking, and he won't know the T-Spheres are dangerous until they're already killing people. And even in the event that he does throw a chaff grenade at them, Daken and Deathstroke can avoid it easily with their speeder bikes, and it will give people without enhanced senses a better idea of Snake's location. Chaff grenades are unlikely to hit the T-Spheres, and even if they do, it won't stop Deathstroke and Daken from directing them. Not an effective counter.

The holograms will be run through at superspeed,

75. These are actually hard light constructs which can interact on a physical level, as shown when Kobra decapitated a hologram of Sand. But even if they weren't, the T-Spheres are capable of moving far faster than Wolverine is, so they can have the holograms of his enemies dance around him and avoid his attacks, keeping him distracted as long as Deathstroke wants.

(Right to left)

76. And it's not like Wolverine's speed boost has turned him into anything like Quicksilver, either. When it was used in the clip you posted, it made a thug who was capable of beating Jackie into a thug who was capable of mildly blitzing Jackie. Not a massive upgrade. It might push Wolverine's speed up to Spider-Man levels, but even if it doubles his speed, he'll only be running at around 60 mph. That's not really that fast.

along with the real people by Wolverine and Sabretooth,

77. All of the real people who Logan and Sabretooth can't sense properly are in the Mobility Force, which means they're all riding speeder bikes. These bikes are capable of traveling at 500 kph, several times the speed either Logan or Creed can achieve. Trying to "run through" the characters you can't sense will only result in frustration as they accelerate away at speed your officers can't hope to match.

while Spidey does his agility thing, KOing everyone on your team in one hit or less.

I'm curious how Spider-Man intends to KO people in less than one hit. Wisecrack them to death, maybe?

78. The problem with this is, despite his massive strength advantage, Spider-Man has never run around one-shotting people, even people far below his strength level. He's not bloodlusted here, he's just very protective of his teammates, even to the point of killing as a last resort. If the options are a) kill one of my team or b) a teammate dies, he'll pick option A. But that's not going to be his first instinct, no matter how evil he thinks the enemy is. Even in Grim Hunt, where he was about as close to bloodlusted as he's been in recent memory and had the advantage of stealth, Spidey wasn't oneshotting the Kraven family members. Kraven was even able to tag him multiple times, including a shot good enough to dislocate Pete's shoulder. A near-bloodlusted Parker is not an untouchable one, and he won't be KOing people in one hit, either. It's not the way he works, even when he's vengeful to the point he's almost lost control.

79. But even if Spidey isn't holding back, my characters have the durability to go a round or two with him, regardless. Batman has tanked hits from Kid Amazo and Amazo, both of whom have the strength of Superman, and was still in good enough shape to outwit both of them and gain the victory, although he only made Kid Amazo flee. He tanks hits from superhumans on an almost daily basis, and his suit lets him take repeated bullets without even flinching. He's even tanked sniper rounds, like in No Man's Land. (No scan.) Bruce is even able to survive for a time in the vacuum of space. For a peak human, his durability is unbelievable. (Right to left)

Although Spider-Man has the strength to take him down a majority of the time one-on-one, to say Spider-Man oneshots him is to disregard both characters' histories.

80. Spidey and Daredevil have fought about 7 times, with Spidey exhibiting various levels of morals, and he has never to my knowledge one-shotted Matt.

81. Deathstroke's Promethium Armor and his healing factor will let him soak plenty of hits, and he has the reflexes to tag Spidey if Parker goes h2h.

82. Daken has soaked hits from Thing and Skaar, and his healing factor will keep him in the game long enough for pheromones and the distractions of the battle to come into play.

Spidey is a formidable opponent, but his history and the durability of my characters show pretty clearly that he won't be running around and oneshotting people with impunity.

His webs will protect sora (make a protective orb)

83. Sora starts out in a hardened room. The room has to be in the one building on your island, since that's the only building in which a room can be located. If Spider-Man is going to place Sora in a web-cocoon, he'll have to go to the house, navigate it, open the room, web up Sora, return through the house, and return from there to your team. This is going to take at least 30 seconds to a minute to accomplish. During that time, your team is getting airstriked. One of your main arguments is that Spidey webs up everything that's being shot at you, and he can't do that while he's indoors. In the long run, webbing up Sora will just get more of your team killed in the initial salvo.

and will aid him in easily defeating any person he sees and any attacks/bullets he comes across.

84. Spidey doesn't often lead with his webs. Almost without fail, he tries punching his opponents rather than webbing them up as a first resort. He might web up one or two people, but he should be killed by a T-Sphere blitz before he starts trying to use webbing in any great quantity.

He's dodged bullets point blank, he can dodge yours from a range.

85. Maybe. But with a rain of bullets coming from several directions, he'll try some aerial dodges at some point. What's to stop a Deadshot from doing this?

"He nailed me in mid-leap, when I couldn't dodge!"

Deadshot is a better marksman than Frank, is equipped with better weapons than Frank was, and Spidey is distracted here, unlike he was there. What's to stop Deadshot from shooting him in mid-leap?

13. At the end of the day, Wolverine could easily use his super speed to locate Snake, tell him to spam nukes on the capital, as he speeds of with Sora, killing everyone except Gambit, Snake, Wolverine, Sora, and Sabretooth. It's not needed, but definitely a viable and easy to win (with infinite ammo spamming it) if backed into a corner. He could also operate it himself, and even use his super speed to save Spidey if need be, from it as well.

86. While you could attempt such a strategy, it will only lead to you losing even more quickly. If Wolverine takes Sora and runs, he'll doom your team almost immediately. While carrying Sora, Wolverine won't be able to run more than 60 miles per hour, give or take a few. My speeder bikes, meanwhile, can move at 300 miles per hour, 5 times the speed Wolverine is capable of. My Goblin Gliders are capable of 90 mph, 1.5 times as fast as Logan. Archangel is capable of faster than all of that, flying around mach 1 on a good day. So Logan will be caught very quickly by a large contingent of my team, and agile though he is, it's only a matter of time before the combination of 12 blaster cannons, 12, wrist guns, and Archangel's feathers are able to take Sora down. Meanwhile, Snake won't be able to use the nuke launcher to save Wolverine, since he can't fire it at my attackers without killing Sora in the explosion. You have nobody to catch my much faster team, and no way for Wolverine to eternally defend Sora from the onslaught of projectiles, especially when they're fired by people so skilled.

87. And on the subject of infinite nuke spamming, I'm not sure I agree with the feasibility. First of all, the nuke launchers were specifically limited to one projectile each, and there was no provision given for getting more. This leads me to believe than an infinite ammo exploit shouldn't apply to the deliberately limited number of nukes. Second, has Snake ever had the ability to conjure infinite ammo for a weapon as powerful as the Fat Man? Because if it hasn't, then there's no reason to believe it's able to, outside of a no-limits fallacy.

EDIT: Forgot, Snake has Octocamo which renders him invisible to Thermal technology. So no go on seeing him in stealth mode.

88. Fortunately for me, all 12 Daredevils still has Radar Sense and they and Daken can also track people's locations by scent, so I'll have no problem keeping tabs on Snake's location at all times, regardless of his thermal camo. This is symptomatic of our debate. You countered one of three ways I've brought up to detect Snake, and then dismissed detection of Snake completely, even though you haven't been able to counter scenting and Radar Sense. This is the reason I bring up multiple ways to do things and address multiple contingencies. I'm not reliant on one single thing working. I've got backups for most of my strategies, and your team has to be able to counter each of the ways they can happen before you can dismiss that strategy.

14. Still see no counter for Wolverine who's now exponentially faster, Sabretooth who's exponentially faster and stronger and more durable, and Gambit with TK and regeneration. I've seen nothing countered except "lol that won't work, Deadshot hits speedster!" when we both know, he's also missed and just saying that, isn't a viable counter.

If this is legitimately all you've gotten out of my debate, then I have no regrets about this being my final post. After your response, we'll go to voting. Good luck.

#16 Posted by beatboks1 (7097 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire: @diredrill: Can I vote now cause I cant see anyway the last post is going to change my choice??

#17 Edited by DarkRaiden (6909 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire: Really? 88 points? That's just excessive an unnecessary.

My counter below, summary below that.

1. Taskmaster beat Daken hand to hand, it's a fact that he's better. True, Daken didn't have healing factor or claws, but there also weren't 24 Taskmasters with an arsenal. Think about that.

2. Dodging 1 mach 7 projectile means he has mach 7 reaction times. the fastest your bullets likely move is mach 3-4. That's many times slower than Mach 7. Snake should thus have no trouble dodging said bullets. Clearly. Especially since he can jump out of the path of fire.

3. Again, Wolverine dodged bullets and helicopter bullets when he wasn't even 60mph running speed. Now he's at least mach speed and reaction. The boost is tremendous and he could literally just run out of the path of the bullets. He'll also hear any bullets Deadshot shoots at least feeling the air pressure it displaces. Not that bullets can take down Wolverine. Also, remember, Gambit, my 48 other marksman, Spider-man's webs and eye beams can all take out the UAVs immediately. No scrambling to dodge or focus on the UAVs or anything. They go down immediately.

5. Shield as in....he stops the bullets mid air as Shen du stopped the big guy and then threw him through the building 100+meters away? Gambit has the reaction speed to react to bullets, and can block them. Instead, he uses telekinesis to stop the bullets and throw them away/back.

6. Nope Spidey tagged him with webs.

7. You greatly underestimate the wind displacement, the pressure the blasters will make, and spider-sense. The AC-130s will be taken out immediately, and then my team will be on alert. It won't take all 48 infantry to take out 3 or w/e helicopters when they have Bullseye's feats. A toothpick flew a ways and killed a woman, cracking a window. He has guns and mini-guns, sniper rifles (no scope) all with adamantium bullets. This is the guy who killed invulnerable mutants, who beat Daredevil with a paperplane. He's not to be underestimated. He's also dodged and blocked bullets and Taskmaster has as well. Not to mention the adamantium skull/skeleton (depending on how recent).

You may kill 3-5 infantry, the rest can literally take out your entire team by themselves. 43-44 people with intense aim, moreso than anyone on your team and adamantium bullets will take down anyone. Deathstroke's armor is pierced, Snake Eyes headshotted, anyone within a mile range is dead. There's just too many people with too good ammunition and guns with too good aim shooting at your team. And of course, Wolverine and Sabertooth won't just stand still and defend, they'll go and attack and then people like Slade and Snake Eyes are very, very dead.

8. A Railgun can completely explode them, Gambit can stop them with TK or explode them with his card, Wolverine can leap up and destroy them with his claws, as can Sabertooth especially with his increased strength, Snake also has Thorn of Thunderbolt, he has a helmet that creates a walking hurricane, Spider-man can catch them with webs or hit them with webs and throw them elsewhere, a minigun can completely obliterate them. We have many options to destroy them before they divebomb us successfully.

9. Deadshot can't disarm 48 people before one of them, with superior aim, headshots him. We know that, and that's a ridiculous thing to claim. And no, they're not using a scope for this, since apparently your UAVs are now 5 miles in the sky (your words not mine), they're on alert for other attacks and ready to kill anything else that moves.

10. Addressed already

11. Bullseye has it, Taskmaster doesn't. I listed it earlier for Bullseye in the original thread. Don't know why it wasn't transferred.

12. Again, they've blocked bullets and jumped out the way of them. Everyone on my team has. Taskmaster has caught bullets. You don't need much room to catch a bullet or move your head to the side to dodge them. Also, again Captain America's suit is essentially bullet proof. Taskmaster has this on.

13. Mach 7 is the speed for a real life railgun. MGS is in the future with better tech and cyborg ninjas and the like. I lowballed and took the Navy's numbers as it'd likely be faster, but it'd be speculation. Anything other than mach 7 is speculation. And no, a barrage of projectiles much slower than mach 7 shouldn't affect him as they're several times slower. As said before, he can jump out the path of the fire at mach 7 reaction speeds. And no, his octocamo stops infrared sensing.

So it's not misplaced confidence.

14. He can make a web dome, use the trees, or just make web constructs as he's done before. A lot of options

15-16. Spider-man webs up bullets, rockets, etc. all the time. I showed them in my scans. He also webbed up speed demon as I showed above. Spider sense helps him dodge the other bullets.

17. Deadshot can't be targeting everyone, you have to pick. Either way Gambit can stop it with tk or throw some charge cards at it. A minigun can obliterate it, etc. As said before. Also spider sense will warn him.

18-19. He's not shooting 24 simultaneous arrows out of the air at the same time, most not even targeting him. He's never shown such a feat and simply isn't fast enough. He's also missed Slade, Bronze Tiger, etc. and they're just regular/slightly meta humans no faster than anyone on my team.

20. Videos don't show in spoilers.....

21.Bullseye has a better shot than Slade. Taskmaster does as well and has nearly as good reflexes. Wolverine has as good reflex pre Rabbit talisman. Either way, my people can tag him and kill him and he has trouble with people with good reflexes.

23. No misleading at all, I don't even know which ones, and apparently you don't either.

24. So you choose lowballing for Sabertooth? that's like choosing that one time Wolverine put Hulk down with a stab to the brain. Not representative of their actual durability/healing factor.

25. Too bad they're mach speed, Wolverine's neck can't be blown off, and Sabertooth is explicitly more durable due to the Ox talisman.

26. All that means is Sabertooth is at base more durable than Wolverine since he took the explosion and no skeleton was showing. Or his healing factor already kicked in since Adamantoum makes it slower. Either way shows explosions and extensive damage ain't doing much.

28. He has strong TK, he moves them far apart, uses his charms, reminds them the threat is evil/they want to kill us. It's not that hard. Stop exaggerating the effects.

29. A hole in the chest didn't kill him, a headshot likely won't since it's not even instant death irl.

30. Gambit has reflexes to block and dodge many bullets and lasers. He routinely focuses on multiple targets. What are you talking about? He'd dodge the billy club or stop that as well, letting the shield down, now no one has it. It's simple.

31. Nets will be adamantium as the rest of the ammo is. No escaping. Freeze arrows and explosive arrows will PURPOSELY MISS! what didn't you get about that. They miss so that the AOE affects still hit whoevever's close. Your daredevils will be frozen.

32. already addressed, duplicate point.

33. Again, arrows purposely miss. We want them to dodge to be caught in the aoe affects.

34. He makes those web nets in "the space between heartbeats", yeah he can web pretty much everything at once.

35. He can't throw it as far as it's thrown, the timebomb arrow can be cooked like a grenade to explode in say, 2 seconds, his hearing will be destroyed by constant gunfire and explosions, he can't smell the arrows cause he has no idea what they are.

37. No, Green Arrow used an arrow that had a rocket propelling it further than usual.

38. Snake handles a railgun and has super human strength. Bullseye has 350 pound strength and miniguns weigh 80 pounds:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minigun

I personally lift 350+ and I can lift an 80 pound thing with one arm nonetheless two. I think he'll be fine.

39. His toothpick thing, he took out daredevil with a paper airplane, he's ricocheted arrows and more. His gun feats are pretty much equal.

40. Batman can't deflect arrows made to explode in his face, again, can't throw them back fast enough, and Deadshot can't shoot 24 simultaneous arrows out the air every second. He'd at least have to reload after shooting down maybe 5. I've already addressed Daredevil.

41. That's....pretty much a non factor

42. Again 24 arrows at once (Hawkeye can actually shoot around 3 arrows at once, maybe more, and thus so can Taskmaster, so it'd be more). Freeze, net, etc.

43. Daredevil has also been taken out by a paperplane from bullseye. Let's call it even. And if he gets close with Taskmaster there, he dies.

44. So he took them 2v1 then? cool. Not to mention Iron man and Cap, avenger teams, etc.

45. Taskmaster has better showings I'd say...he's even bested Spider-man a few times.

46. Well now Taskmaster has an impact resistant suit, he also now has experience fighting Daredevil and will do better this time, and has beaten faster, better people. Also, pretty sure the car didn't KO him, just....eh w/e.

47. Outsmarting him won't do much good in this war zone, especially when he can read his next move.

48. Taskmaster can do the very same moves that Daredevil can. He can also use chi and has taken Jessica drew's Venom blast with ease.

49. Taskmaster's already superior to batman hand to hand, so the speed advantage is just that, an extra advantage he can use if he needs it (he won't).

50. So.....he can charge things with his eyes and it's never been retconned. Cool.

52. Simple point,he dodges pretty much any and all bullets he wants to dodge. Now he's faster. That's it.

53. Already addressed, increased durability, healing factor usually is better, etc. Speaking of wolverine, he' usually lets himself be stabbed and is unaffected and Sabertooth should function the same way with no jobbing:

Wolverine also had a similar thing happen in his fight with blade. He just takes it and smiles.

54. Probably yes. That's just a testament to Omi's skills. The description of Fancy Feet is that it gives it's user sonic speed, so it's at least as fast as sound. He'll be much faster.

55. Multiple high end feats? That are consistent? Not really misleading if it happens a lot. Also the fighting angel of death thing seems stupid and I have no idea about if that's even canon. Also....Sabertooth survived the same explosion so....

56. Again, only a testament to his durability then or his healing factor. It was the same explosion for both.

57. Again, it healed a hole in the heart instantly. No time taken to heal, it's instant.

58. Spider-man will also be going for kill shots and going all out. Not holding back at all. and T-spheres are taken out by chaff grenades.

59. Reading the scans he looked like he tried to fight, and thought he would heal but he didn't. Still means Tasky is better h2h. Regardless, point already addressed.

60. Wolverine's victories seem easier from what I've seen. Just saying.

61. Wolverine now has a speed advantage, nullifying everything you just named as all of them get sliced and diced immediately before they can react. Except maybe Daken, who still loses.

63. Nope, my infantry doesn't even have to go out and meet your main force, they're marksman, snipers, they'll simultaneously take out your aerial and main force.

64. addressed, freeze arrows, net arrows, spider-man web nets take care of them, as does Wolverine and Sabertooth speed blitz.

65. Snake's sniping and invisible, Wolverine and Sabertooth can both take out aerial, infantry takes out aeral, Spider-man (since his web takes very little time to make) takes out aerial, as does Gambit

66. Already addressed, chaff grenades take out t-spheres

67. Addressed via chaff grenades as is 68.

69. How will my officers die? Especially Snake who's hidden and sniping and invisible to thermal sensing? Dareevils are busy dying/being trapped by nets and webs and being frozen, Daken's either going for Wolverine or getting destroyed by Snake hand to hand and via stun grenades and other equipment. Also, the helmet that can create a WALKING HURRICANE!"

70. Ram Bullseye who can headshot you with a toothpick, and the many guns he has? Good luck with that.

71. Chaff....Grenade. Disrupts all of that. Literally

72. Seriously, chaff Grenade

73. The web dome? Did you forget about that? Also Snake snipes them

74. But no extra sensors and it'd mess up their function and the mental connection since it's a form of technology communication (radio, which chaff grenades mess up) or sensing. Plus they only respond mentally to Terrific because of his tech but...w/e chaff grenades counter it. Chaff grenades are no joke.

75. Proof they're faster than Wolverine at mach speeds?

76. It allowed a turtle to outrun an explosion mid explosion. Mach speeds

77. Faster than mach speeds Wolverine and Sabertooth? Did you forget about the speed boost?

78. Kraven's closer to super human than people on your team. He even beat Black Panther head up before. Spider-man not even bloodusted hit Wolverine with a shot hard enough to bust a car.

Spiderman also busted up Iron Man's suit.

79. Pure PIS as Deathstroke has put him down with ease, and killer croc is "too strong for him":

80. He's never gone all out. We know he MO. This time, he's thinking daredevil is evil and is going to put him down.

81. Maybe, Deathstroke's not faster than Spider-man though. He has eye beams also now and Deathstroke can't avoid the webs that Iron Man can't.

82. Again, can't escape the webs or survive hits from the Muramasa blade + speed blitz

83. Or he can put a web dome around the building which takes less time than the space between heartbeats.

84. Chaff grenades take out t-spheres, Spidey can dodge T-spheres until I see proof otherwise which you haven't provided.

85. PIS. Punisher's full of it. Spidey's dodged much more and done much better. No lowballing

What should happen

86. Why can't he move at mach speeds? The video showed them moving people at mach speeds and them being fine. Same should work here.

87. Yes, in gameplay, everything has infinite ammo, and the cutscene showed it. But regardless, he does have infinite stun grenades, chaff grenades, railguns, etc. and can't be sensed. You could take out the rest of my team and Snake would clean house.

88. Daredevils are busy doing the shield line thing, Daken's messing with Wolverine or Spidey or w/e according to you. Also Stun grenades stop sound, and mess up all senses including smell. WP Grenades help burn them to a crisp as well. Not to mention his natural h2h skills.

And you still actually haven't countered Wolverine's speed, Sabertooth's speed, Snake's stealth, Spidey's webs, marksman ship of my infantry. Gambit's charging and regen. What if he throws the "whole deck" at Daken and takes him out? or immobilizes him with TK and charges his head, arm, leg, body, etc. None of these have been countered.

Ok, caught up in the 88 points I need to summarize:

A. The unmanned drones can be taken down by Railgun fire, chaff grenades, webs and we nets, Gambit Tk, Gambit charging things and throwing them, Wolverine with a wrenche, Snake shooting Thorn of thunderbolt, or him creating a walking hurricane. If it tries to divebomb, webs will catch it, miniguns can destroy it.

B. The sound thing I never saw, but assuming it's tech, Chaff grenades can take that out, as well as prometheus's armor, T-spheres and their radios and communication, rendering them dead technology wise.

C. Snake's Octocamo is invisible to thermal, and he's invisible to the naked eye. The only ones that can possibly see him are Daredevil via sound and Daken via smell, but both are busy lining up in a shield line and advancing , and fighting other lieutenants, leaving them ripe to be sniped. Bullseye and Wolverine could even warn/tell Snake about them so he can dull them/blind/deafen them with a stun grenade or few.

D. Spider-man's webs easily block bullets and he can make giant nets and constructs in less than a second (less than a heartbeat actually) and he can easily protect any unsuspecting teammates with his webs and take down any of his enemies as the webs have taken down Iron Man (he couldn't move) before.

E. Gambit's charging his cards have taken down Sentinels, Gladiator, Mr. Sinister and more, and they should do fine against his infantry and lieutenants (especially when they're flustered as their plan falls apart with no tech due to chaff grenades)

F. Wolverine and Sabertooth speedblitz and take out any and all of his team with ease. Wolverine via his claws and nerve strikes, Sabertooth via his strength and speed, both enhanced and his claws.

G. Infantry takes out people hiding behind shields with freeze arrows and net arrows (adamantium when used by Bullseye, which will be 50% of them), and take out the rest with their superhuman aim. Even Taskmaster shoots bullets into other guns, so with him outnumbering Deadshot, he can take him out this way. He's also seen getting triple headshots. Bullseye can take people out with anything, and has a mini-gun now and the strength to use it (as does Taskmaster). Not to mention a cooked timebomb arrow, rocket arrow, and more.

H. All members of my team dodge and catch bullets with ease, and some are enhanced now, making it easier. An assault or barrage of bullets won't affect us much, and likely no casualties will be suffered

I. Most of all, Wolverine has fought people like Cap America (Bat's equal), Daredevil, Daken, and others on his team or like them and been victorious without the enhancement. With the enhanced speed it's even easier. Let's say Daredevil blocks a claw strike, as he does Wolverine zips around him and decapitates him with his mach speeds. Same happens to the rest of the infantry and lieutenants like Bats, Snake Eyes, Deathstroke, and Deadshot. Sure Deadshot hit speedsters but not people who have dodged bullets and THEN got faster. Before he dodged bullets, now he's as fast as them as one of the most skilled martial artists in the Marvel Universe. Not to mention the Muramasa blade, at that speeds neutralizes Daken. He's already beaten him Muramasa Blade to Muramasa claws, and now he's, again faster and at mach speeds.

J. Sabertooth is similar where he's taken on people like Wolverine himself and won and punked him a lot before his speed boost. Daken's about equal or worse than Wolverine, and with his speed advantage, people him, Daredevil, Bats, are all helplessly destroyed by is increased strength and speed aka momentum gain.

K. Just like to remind everyone that Gambit has TK that can throw a large man through a building over 100m away, bullet reflexes and regen enough to heal an entire hole in his chest. And Spidey dodges sniper rounds, webs up missiles and bullets and even tags speedsters with his webs.

#18 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio
#19 Edited by DarkRaiden (6909 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill there are judges? Or just tag anyone?

#20 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden: There are designated judges. I think I tagged all of them already.

#21 Posted by DarkRaiden (6909 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire said:

@darkraiden: There are designated judges. I think I tagged all of them already.

Oh ok then. And now we wait.......

#22 Edited by beatboks1 (7097 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill: Am I a judge as @esquire seems to think? I wasn't aware there were judges, when I asked if I could vote I assumed standard tourney practice of players and spectators voting

#23 Edited by Dextersinister (5940 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire: After slogging through this my vote goes to Esquire, he effectively utilized his range advantages and pointing out the correct context of his opponents showings.

You did say that Shriek can silence vehicles, was he among them or is that an actual ability?

I would go into detail but there would be an excessive 88 points

#24 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister: Shriek was riding one of the speeder bikes, which I forgot to specify, although it's listed in the OP. He can cancel any sound he wants, which is one of his powers. I posted a couple videos in spoiler blocks, but apparently putting them in spoilers deletes them, which I didn't know. Here they are if you're interested.

#25 Edited by beatboks1 (7097 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire: @darkraiden: My Vote, which is also for Esquire. Darkraiden failed to address the team cohesion issues he presented which IMO cost him greatly as they were very valid points. He also failed to address in a meaningful way some of the attack points Esquire made while esquire IMO adequately addressed all of his.