@reaverlation: I did. Dos Doomsday is just a tad too weak for this battle. Then you said you didn't know who Magog Doomsday was, and I don't feel like explaining it. So we're going with Hunter Prey.
@ghostravage: @reaverlation: Team 2 won't win. New-52 Black Adam stalemated New-52 Ultraman in their second fight (Ultraman was amped in the first) and the new version of Ultraman isn't a jobber like the old version, he moved The Moon with one hand while weakened, tanked a blast from Parallax Sinestro (Parallax) and Geoff Johns stated he's a no-morals New-52 Superman.
Essentially, WW3 Adam > New-52 Adam = Ultraman (who Johns said was New-52 Superman with no morals). WW3 Teth fought over 20 heroes, Superman in contrast has been overpowered by alien dogpiles who did not use their powers.
@ghostravage: @reaverlation: Team 2 won't win. New-52 Black Adam stalemated New-52 Ultraman in their second fight (Ultraman was amped in the first)
I honestly dont see much of a difference between how Ultraman and Black Adam's fight went first time and the second time. Looked rather identical to me.
The idea of Black Adam being just as strong as Ultraman is further contradicted in the same issue where Black Adam needed Sinestro's help to move the moon while Ultraman did it alone.
As per Ultraman being amped, i dont think thats the case. Its akin to saying everytime Superman fights in a broad daylight, he is amped because of the sun. Is there really anything suggest the kryptonite amp Ultraman any further than say a broad daylight sun would amp Superman?
Essentially, WW3 Adam > New-52 Adam = Ultraman (who Johns said was New-52 Superman with no morals).
Well Hulk himself fought just as huge group of heroes before going all World Breaker, and lasted 2 issues. Adam performance wasnt much better, once the heavy weight joined the battle.
Its commendable how Teth fought the heroes and lasted as long as he did, but its not much different from what other characters like Hulk and say Thor (who fought a group of villians including some team busters themselves on his own) have done on occasions.
I honestly dont see much of a difference between how Ultraman and Black Adam's fight went first time and the second time. Looked rather identical to me.
How did you get that idea? Ultraman stomped the first fight. In the second fight, Mazahs' lightning took out Adam. They were trading punches and when it cuts back, Ultraman's face is bloodied.
In the first fight, he relied on magic, in the second he did not.
The idea of Black Adam being just as strong as Ultraman is further contradicted in the same issue where Black Adam needed Sinestro's help to move the moon while Ultraman did it alone.
There was never any indication that Adam needed Sinestro's help to move The Moon, rather that they just decided to do it together because previously they had teamed up together, they both disappeared after the lightning plan. Sinestro with Parallax would have no problem in moving The Moon, and Adam stalemating Ultraman leads me to believe they were of equal strength.
I can agree to this.
Glad to see we can agree on atleast something for a change :)
As per Ultraman being amped, i dont think thats the case. Its akin to saying everytime Superman fights in a broad daylight, he is amped because of the sun. Is there really anything suggest the kryptonite amp Ultraman any further than say a broad daylight sun would amp Superman?
Yes, Johns stated in an interview with Newsarama that Kryptonite makes him more powerful. It's not akin.
It's interesting because Johns stated it straight after the query of the Black Adam fight.
Well Hulk himself fought just as huge group of heroes before going all World Breaker, and lasted 2 issues. Adam performance wasnt much better, once the heavy weight joined the battle.
Adam was bound to fall eventually, that is all I can say. However, characters such as Superman have fought alien dogpiles and lost, namely Superman who lost quickly to an alien dogpile, Adam fought hordes of heroes which leads me to believe WW3 version was simply written to be more powerful.
He also trumped Martian Manhunter very casually, which is very questionable showing...
H/P Doomsday solo'd the Justice League, a team comprising of Flash, Martian Manhunter, Kyle Rayner, Wonder Woman, Orion, etc. He actually beat them, there is no way team 2 are taking on H/P Doomsday. Hulk is hopelessly outclassed by a being who could solo the Justice League, and Superman already has his hands full with WW3 Black Adam, let alone H/P Doomsday.
Superman needed a Motherbox enhancement to combat him.
How is it any different from the first fight? His face was bloodied just as well.
In the first fight, he relied on magic, in the second he did not.
Any evidence to suggest the fight would have gone any better had it not been interrupted, thats my question.
There was never any indication that Adam needed Sinestro's help to move The Moon, rather that they just decided to do it together because previously they had teamed up together, they both disappeared after the lightning plan.
Thats your interpretation though not a given fact. No where in the issue does it say either of them could have moved the moon alone. Its odd to think they would work together when one of them could have got the job done.
But then since we cant get a correct answer for sure, its better to agree to disagree on this one, this is more to do with our interpretation than anything else.
The way he was struggling against Ultraman then against Crime Syndicate certainly didnt suggest he was powerful anyways.
Gallery
Did you have anything to suggest Sinestro Parallax could move the moon on his own? I am interested.
Glad to see we can agree on atleast something for a change :)
Its normally just 1 topic we always disagree with..
Yes, Johns stated in an interview with Newsarama that Kryptonite makes him more powerful. It's not akin.
It's interesting because Johns stated it straight after the query of the Black Adam fight.
I wouldnt interpret John's word the same way you do. All he said is Kryponite empowers him, Sunlight depowers him, stark opposite to what happens to Superman.
It doesnt answer my question though, is there something suggesting Kryptonite would empower him beyond what sunlight does to Superman.
Adam was bound to fall eventually, that is all I can say. However, characters such as Superman have fought alien dogpiles and lost, namely Superman who lost quickly to an alien dogpile, Adam fought hordes of heroes which leads me to believe WW3 version was simply written to be more powerful.
I wasnt comparing his performance with Superman but rather Hulk. A morals off Superman here is better suited to fight Doomsday.
Hulk himself has fought a massive group of extended Avengers and other heroes twice, neither of which was as World War Hulk level.
So its not a feat done by Black Adam alone, Hulk himself has matched stuffs like that.
That is not what the comic showed, but let's see...
Yes, thats not the disagreement, how would you know the second fight would have gone any different had it not been interrupted by the black lightning?
Because if Ultraman could already beat Adam, he would have already done it. In the first fight, Adam did not throw many punches. In fact, he only threw one punch (not landed, threw). For the entire fight, all he did was spam lightning and blitz Adam into a building which was useless because magic did not affect Ultraman.
The second fight, they were seen trading punches, he blitzes him away on page 13 and they are seen trading punches on page 21. For 8 entire pages, off-panel they are trading punches and when it cuts back, Ultraman is visibly hurt.
That's pretty hard to fault.
They were trading punches in the first fight as well, the only difference i see is one was cut short, one wasnt. Not sure how you reached the stalemate part
No they weren't. In the first fight, which begins in Justice League #24, he blitzes away Ultraman, blitzes him through a building and spams lightning, in the second fight he does not.
How is it any different from the first fight? His face was bloodied just as well.
His face is bloodied from the punches traded. This bloodied face of your example was explained in the next page:
Any evidence to suggest the fight would have gone any better had it not been interrupted, thats my question.
Yes, because Ultraman would have already beaten Adam. Adam still had his jaw broken and they were trading punches for 8 pages, whereas the first fight he only threw 1.
Thats your interpretation though not a given fact. No where in the issue does it say either of them could have moved the moon alone. Its odd to think they would work together when one of them could have got the job done
It's actually pretty accurate. It's not like Sinestro said ''hey, I can't move The Moon'' - he just went along and did it with Adam. And I'll get to the Parallax part.
But then since we cant get a correct answer for sure, its better to agree to disagree on this one, this is more to do with our interpretation than anything else.
Okay.
Did you have a basis for this?
The way he was struggling against Ultraman then against Crime Syndicate certainly didnt suggest he was powerful anyways. Did you have anything to suggest Sinestro Parallax could move the moon on his own? I am interested.
Yes, because in chronology he still had Parallax within himself in the Forever Evil event. Hal Jordan with Parallax, went toe-to-toe with Spectre, and clearly Parallax level being operates on a much higher level.
To your question about suggestion, this was probably because Sinestro Parallax was underplayed. But, he was still Parallax.
Without Parallax, Adam would have moved 95% of The Moon, Lanterns do not really have super-strength unless they use constructs.
When Kyle helped Superman and co move The Moon in JLA/Titans, he used constructs. In the Forever Evil instance, constructs were not used, he was just pushing it physically, like Superman would do.
I wouldnt interpret John's word the same way you do. All he said is Kryponite empowers him, Sunlight depowers him, stark opposite to what happens to Superman.
It doesnt answer my question though, is there something suggesting Kryptonite would empower him beyond what sunlight does to Superman.
Well, yeah. His powers are not quite polar opposite of Superman's. With Kryptonite, he visibly gets stronger, like an amp. If Johns says, ''Kryptonite enhances him'', then that is what it does. I'm not sure how you can get around that. He did not say 'empower', he said 'enhance'.
Definition of enhance: intensify, increase, or further improve the quality, value, or extent of.
When sunlight depowered Ultraman in the last issue, he wasn't just depowered, he was the weakest being on the planet. Literally, he was heplessly and patheticly weak.
I wasnt comparing his performance with Superman but rather Hulk. A morals off Superman here is better suited to fight Doomsday.
Hulk himself has fought a massive group of extended Avengers and other heroes twice, neither of which was as World War Hulk level.
So its not a feat done by Black Adam alone, Hulk himself has matched stuffs like that.
H/P Doomsday solo'd the Justice League, and if we put that aside, WW3 Teth gave Martian Manhunter a beating, not a showing which sits well with me, but the OP stipulated this version.
@killemall: Also, let's get the time frame of the second fight.
On page 11, the timer is on 4:58
Adam blitzes him away on page 13, where a few seconds have passed (let's say, 15). The last timing is on page 21, the end of the fight.
We have a fight nearing 5 minutes, with physical punches traded. It is also mentioned in the final issue that Adam still had not healed properly from the first fight. With the last shot also showing Ultraman to be visibly hurt.
Its not much different from the second fight though, we merely see him throw 1 punch on panel. Thats it.
The second fight, they were seen trading punches, he blitzes him away on page 13 and they are seen trading punches on page 21. For 8 entire pages, off-panel they are trading punches and when it cuts back, Ultraman is visibly hurt.
That's pretty hard to fault.
Its not hard to fault when you look at it in a different way. You are simply assuming they kept trading punches for a reasonable time, when we have just 1 panel of them throwing punches at each other.
Anything beyond what was shown on panel, is your assumption, no one else is required to agree to that.
The fight was cut short without no evidence of who would win, all we also see is 1 panel of them trading punches and thats all. Anything beyond that is a mere assumption of what may and may not have taken off panel, which isnt entirely applicable in a debate.
His face is bloodied from the punches traded. This bloodied face of your example was explained in the next page:
No where on the panel says why his face was bloodied though.. thats another assumption you are making.
Yes, because Ultraman would have already beaten Adam. Adam still had his jaw broken and they were trading punches for 8 pages, whereas the first fight he only threw 1.
Again you are making your own assumption of time frame and everything beyond what is shown on panel. Thats personal interpretation not empirical evidence from comics.
It's actually pretty accurate. It's not like Sinestro said ''hey, I can't move The Moon'' - he just went along and did it with Adam. And I'll get to the Parallax part.
Thats against another interpretation you have made beyond what was shown in the panel. The way it stands it took 2 people to move the moon, without anything anywhere suggesting either of them could have done it alone.
Yes, because in chronology he still had Parallax within himself in the Forever Evil event. Hal Jordan with Parallax, went toe-to-toe with Spectre, and clearly Parallax level being operates on a much higher level.
To your question about suggestion, this was probably because Sinestro Parallax was underplayed. But, he was still Parallax.
Without Parallax, Adam would have moved 95% of The Moon, Lanterns do not really have super-strength unless they use constructs.
When Kyle helped Superman and co move The Moon in JLA/Titans, he used constructs. In the Forever Evil instance, constructs were not used, he was just pushing it physically, like Superman would do.
Neither of this answers my question thought.
If you are using say Hal as Parallax , you would need evidence to suggest they are on same level. Had it been nothing suggesting Sinestro isnt on the same level, i would have agreed with you thats not the case. Sinestro was nowhere close to Hal as Parallax in the said issue.
And i do not know why Sinestro being underplayed or otherwise would make a difference given we are talking about his performance in the same issue not a different issue altogether. If he is underplayed in the issue, any reason to believe all of a sudden towards the end of the issue, in order to move the moon, he got so much more powerful?
Well, yeah. His powers are not quite polar opposite of Superman's. With Kryptonite, he visibly gets stronger, like an amp. If Johns says, ''Kryptonite enhances him'', then that is what it does. I'm not sure how you can get around that. He did not say 'empower', he said 'enhance'.
Definition of enhance: intensify, increase, or further improve the quality, value, or extent of.
When sunlight depowered Ultraman in the last issue, he wasn't just depowered, he was the weakest being on the planet. Literally, he was heplessly and patheticly weak.
I think you are over-reading into his words. Fairly certain John didnt overthink the word enhanced when he used it.
Even if we go by the defination of enchance, what evidence do you have to suggest it even enchanced to a degree that would make a difference in a fight?
Look at other characters for example, when Zod was enhanced by Sunlight, he is drawn visibly different. When Superman was enhanced by Appollo they did the same.
Then when you look at Ultraman, there certainly isnt anything even visibly suggesting he is any different. Heck potrayal alone suggest he wasnt amped/ enchanced to any reasonable degree to a point he would stomp a character who he could merely stalemate.
I dont know what issue you are referring to, so i would prefer scans on the last part.
H/P Doomsday solo'd the Justice League, and if we put that aside, WW3 Teth gave Martian Manhunter a beating, not a showing which sits well with me, but the OP stipulated this version.
And the very writer said Superman without moral would match this version. Superman also held his own against Doomsday with a broken arm, as well as held his own again against Doomsday despite having a kid on his back.
Issue after Hunter/ Prey also portray Superman and Doomsday as being on same level.
I honestly dont see, why based on 1 mostly off panel fight , specially with both potrayal and writer statement backing they are on similar level, i would take Doomsday as so much more.
In regards to WW3, all he did was hurt Martian with a lightning when he was temporarily distraced by Teth pain, the second encounter in the same issue he TP him just fine.
And again, Hulk has done similar stuffs , a weaker version of said Hulk. So there's that.
@killemall: Also, let's get the time frame of the second fight.
On page 11, the timer is on 4:58
Adam blitzes him away on page 13, where a few seconds have passed (let's say, 15). The last timing is on page 21, the end of the fight.
We have a fight nearing 5 minutes, with physical punches traded. It is also mentioned in the final issue that Adam still had not healed properly from the first fight. With the last shot also showing Ultraman to be visibly hurt.
This ones actually pretty cool.
I might have to look up in the issue which i dont have, if panel one takes place after Black Adam flies Ultraman then i might agree.
Although it still doesnt change, all Adam did was held his own against Ultra man for what 5 mins. Thats hard to term as stalemate.
Had the fight continued he probably would have, how would we know. Its not like we are actually given a time frame of how long they fought.
Well, this is now nullified by the fact that we did. To recap: nearing 5 minutes.
Its not much different from the second fight though, we merely see him throw 1 punch on panel. Thats it.
I do not think this is as insignificant as you claim. That one punch was the cut back to the fight, that's what they were doing: trading punches.
Its not hard to fault when you look at it in a different way. You are simply assuming they kept trading punches for a reasonable time, when we have just 1 panel of them throwing punches at each other.
Except that my claim has base. The cut back to them was punching is what happened, it was a cut back. This gives us a good indication of what they were doing.
Anything beyond what was shown on panel, is your assumption, no one else is required to agree to that. The fight was cut short without no evidence of who would win, all we also see is 1 panel of them trading punches and thats all. Anything beyond that is a mere assumption of what may and may not have taken off panel, which isnt entirely applicable in a debate.
Again, we were shown evidence. It seems pretty unlikely that Ultraman was dominating that fight. Black Adam blitzes Ultraman away, 5 minutes pass, it cuts back and they are seen trading punches in the sky, when the shot shows Ultraman, he is visibly hurt and bleeding. I don't see it likely that it wasn't a stalemate considering a lot was done to show the fight was different.
If we look at previous canon, Black Adam had broken Captain Marvel's arm in their first encounter, but most subsequent encounters show them to be on relatively equal footing, from what we saw in Black Adam and Ultraman's second fight, I saw nothing which indicated Ultraman was going to stomp.
No where on the panel says why his face was bloodied though.. thats another assumption you are making.
.....How else would it be bloodied?
We can see his face is bloodied when he glares into the Dark Lightning, this is after the Dark Lightning KO's Adam. They are fighting for 8 pages. I do not see how else it would bloodied. It was Adam who he was fighting, unless another explanation was given, it's obvious who bloodied it.
Again you are making your own assumption of time frame and everything beyond what is shown on panel. Thats personal interpretation not empirical evidence from comics.
No I am not.
I posted the pages. A timer was on-panel, changing throughout the pages. The fight was nearing 5 minutes.
Thats against another interpretation you have made beyond what was shown in the panel. The way it stands it took 2 people to move the moon, without anything anywhere suggesting either of them could have done it alone.
No it isn't.
Parallax does not need help to move The Moon, frankly I find that quite ridiculous. Parallax is on equal footing with The Spectre, at Universal level.
If you claim it wasn't Parallax, then that basically means Adam moved 98% of The Moon considering Sinestro did NOT use constructs to move The Moon.
Neither of this answers my question thought.
It should do.
If you are using say Hal as Parallax , you would need evidence to suggest they are on same level. Had it been nothing suggesting Sinestro isnt on the same level, i would have agreed with you thats not the case. Sinestro was nowhere close to Hal as Parallax in the said issue.
Actually, not much evidence is needed beyond the obvious. Sinestro and Hal are on relatively equal footing. But, even if we discard that, the thought of Parallax, a universal level being not being capable of Earth's Moon is offensive to the power levels of Parallax and goes against Parallax in general and what he is. Even when Parallax lost to Spectre, it's not like he got stomped (when Joker was Parallax).
At the very worst, Parallax is far above, and I reiterate far above Moon level.
And i do not know why Sinestro being underplayed or otherwise would make a difference given we are talking about his performance in the same issue not a different issue altogether. If he is underplayed in the issue, any reason to believe all of a sudden towards the end of the issue, in order to move the moon, he got so much more powerful?
Technically he is Parallax throughout, that is what he was...and if we discard that, Adam moved more than 95% of The Moon, meaning basically Sinestro was thus not needed if he was not Parallax.
Sinestro did not even use constructs (which Lanterns use when moving celestial bodies, e.g. when Kyle helped Superman and others move The Moon or when Hal helped Superman move The Earth). The motion in which he moved The Moon does not match what a Lantern would do, unless it was a Kryptonian with a Lantern ring or something along those lines.
I think you are over-reading into his words. Fairly certain John didnt overthink the word enhanced when he used it.
I'm not. I'm simply taking his words. I see no discrepancies with Kryptonite amping him and what Johns said.
Even if we go by the defination of enchance, what evidence do you have to suggest it even enchanced to a degree that would make a difference in a fight?
Because it's like a sundip, essentially, that is what happens. When he inhales Kryptonite, he's high on Kryptonite. That was shown when he inhaled it.
Look at other characters for example, when Zod was enhanced by Sunlight, he is drawn visibly different. When Superman was enhanced by Appollo they did the same.
Different powerset essentially, Prime Earth do not work like Earth 3.
Then when you look at Ultraman, there certainly isnt anything even visibly suggesting he is any different. Heck potrayal alone suggest he wasnt amped/ enchanced to any reasonable degree to a point he would stomp a character who he could merely stalemate.
Yes there is, when he inhales Kryptonite he visibly becomes more powerful. In his first fight with Black Adam, sunlight started to affect him towards the end (that's why he started to bleed), and then he needs Kryptonite again.
I dont know what issue you are referring to, so i would prefer scans on the last part.
Same page in which Adam and Sinestro moved The Moon. The last issue of Forever Evil (7).
And the very writer said Superman without moral would match this version. Superman also held his own against Doomsday with a broken arm, as well as held his own again against Doomsday despite having a kid on his back. Issue after Hunter/ Prey also portray Superman and Doomsday as being on same level.
I honestly dont see, why based on 1 mostly off panel fight , specially with both potrayal and writer statement backing they are on similar level, i would take Doomsday as so much more.
Because to me, this just seems Jurgens thinks of a no-morals Superman as being superior to Justice League. That's how he wrote Superman's power levels. Superman was also amped via Mother Box.
In regards to WW3, all he did was hurt Martian with a lightning when he was temporarily distraced by Teth pain, the second encounter in the same issue he TP him just fine. And again, Hulk has done similar stuffs , a weaker version of said Hulk. So there's that.
He also resisted Martian's TP....which is....meh, he stomped Martian the first time.
In my opinion, I would favour Martian Manhunter over the likes of Thanos, Surfer or Darkseid due to his TP.
@killemall: Also, let's get the time frame of the second fight.
On page 11, the timer is on 4:58
Adam blitzes him away on page 13, where a few seconds have passed (let's say, 15). The last timing is on page 21, the end of the fight.
We have a fight nearing 5 minutes, with physical punches traded. It is also mentioned in the final issue that Adam still had not healed properly from the first fight. With the last shot also showing Ultraman to be visibly hurt.
This ones actually pretty cool.
I might have to look up in the issue which i dont have, if panel one takes place after Black Adam flies Ultraman then i might agree.
Although it still doesnt change, all Adam did was held his own against Ultra man for what 5 mins. Thats hard to term as stalemate.
No it does not. It takes place in the next issue, Alexander Luthor stomps Ultraman, Ultraman says he needs Kryptonite to match himself to Alexander and then Black Adam needs to carry out a plan by Lex.
@frozen: I can agree with a lot of rest, i think you mis-understood few of the things though expect Sinestro Parallax since we clearly see him not operating anywhere close to universal level in the same issue he moved the moon with help, but lets agree to disagree.
Because to me, this just seems Jurgens thinks of a no-morals Superman as being superior to Justice League. That's how he wrote Superman's power levels. Superman was also amped via Mother Box.
Regardless of his opinion on what power level is morals off Superman, a comparision can be made for Doomsday though because he is basically the only writer who wrote it.
I am not sure why Mother Box was important given they had a second find where Superman didnt have the mother box and faired pretty good as well, which also goes along the line that nothing in the issue suggest Mother Box would amp his physical attributes anyways.
No it does not. It takes place in the next issue, Alexander Luthor stomps Ultraman, Ultraman says he needs Kryptonite to match himself to Alexander and then Black Adam needs to carry out a plan by Lex.
I am asking about the timer and when was the first and last time the timer took place.. nothing to do with Alex Luthor.
@killemall: Okay even if we discard Parallax, it was basically Adam moving most of The Moon because Sinestro wasn't really using constructs, but regardless:
Regardless of his opinion on what power level is morals off Superman, a comparision can be made for Doomsday though because he is basically the only writer who wrote it.
He is but he wrote Doomsday beating the League. Doomsday was just that powerful, if he really is a 'multi-dimensional' threat, I never saw much evidence for Superman being up to par with Doomsday in that specific story (Hunter/Prey).
I am not sure why Mother Box was important given they had a second find where Superman didnt have the mother box and faired pretty good as well, which also goes along the line that nothing in the issue suggest Mother Box would amp his physical attributes anyways.
Mother-Box was clearly an amp during the fight, a lot was done to show that, and in that same fight, Superman would not stop commenting on Doomsday's adapatibility.
I am asking about the timer and when was the first and last time the timer took place.. nothing to do with Alex Luthor
@killemall: Okay even if we discard Parallax, it was basically Adam moving most of The Moon because Sinestro wasn't really using constructs, but regardless:
Regardless it still took 2 people to do what Ultra man himself did.
He is but he wrote Doomsday beating the League. Doomsday was just that powerful, if he really is a 'multi-dimensional' threat, I never saw much evidence for Superman being up to par with Doomsday in that specific story (Hunter/Prey).
Mostly off panel though.
And what evidence did you see to suggest Mother Box amped him, and how do you reconcile him doing just as well during Doomsday Wars without a mother box, heck Doomday has braniac tech helping him out there.
The timer was only prevalent in Forever Evil #6.
That i got. My question was when does the timer start or make its first appearence, before or after Adam grabs Ultraman, and when does it stop.
Because you know Black Adam and Ultraman start fighting at Black Adam takes Ultra man at page no 13, we would have no idea how much time passed between 11 and 13. thats what i am asking.
Beside, i personally dont see Black Adam not getting koed without 5 mins (even if that be the time frame) to suggest they stalemated, its too short a fight to make an interpretation over, but lets agree to disagree.
Regardless it still took 2 people to do what Ultra man himself did
It really didn't. They just decided to do it together. Parallax could have solo'd that, and without Parallax, Adam basically moved most of it, which would only make him marginally weaker than Ultraman.
It should also be noted with how Johns actually writes Black Adam. He wrote Adam to solo the JSA in previous canon.
Mostly off panel though.
But, we are shown a stomped Justice League. On the floor, beaten.
And what evidence did you see to suggest Mother Box amped him
Was it not stated on-panel? It was explained Mother Box technology makes him more efficient I believe.
and how do you reconcile him doing just as well during Doomsday Wars without a mother box, heck Doomday has braniac tech helping him out there
H/P version > Doomsday Wars.
That i got. My question was when does the timer start or make its first appearence, before or after Adam grabs Ultraman, and when does it stop.
It stops I believe when Adam and Ultraman stop fighting.
Because you know Black Adam and Ultraman start fighting at Black Adam takes Ultra man at page no 13, we would have no idea how much time passed between 11 and 13. thats what i am asking.
The timer starts on page 11. I went over the time pass and attributed it to 15 seconds, which is more than reasonable.
Beside, i personally dont see Black Adam not getting koed without 5 mins (even if that be the time frame) to suggest they stalemated, its too short a fight to make an interpretation over, but lets agree to disagree.
I do. Many comicbook fights have occured longer than that. Adam actually changed his tactic and went toe-to-toe with Ultraman rather than using useless magic. I saw no indication that Ultraman won or even dominated, the fight cuts back to punches (which, has been taking place for pages we can easily gauge) and it cuts back to Ultraman who is visibly hurt. The first few pages of the aftermath of the fight show Ultraman to be visibly tired.
Regardless it still took 2 people to do what Ultra man himself did
It really didn't. They just decided to do it together. Parallax could have solo'd that, and without Parallax, Adam basically moved most of it, which would only make him marginally weaker than Ultraman.
It should also be noted with how Johns actually writes Black Adam. He wrote Adam to solo the JSA in previous canon.
Mostly off panel though.
But, we are shown a stomped Justice League. On the floor, beaten.
And what evidence did you see to suggest Mother Box amped him
Was it not stated on-panel? It was explained Mother Box technology makes him more efficient I believe.
and how do you reconcile him doing just as well during Doomsday Wars without a mother box, heck Doomday has braniac tech helping him out there
H/P version > Doomsday Wars.
That i got. My question was when does the timer start or make its first appearence, before or after Adam grabs Ultraman, and when does it stop.
It stops I believe when Adam and Ultraman stop fighting.
Because you know Black Adam and Ultraman start fighting at Black Adam takes Ultra man at page no 13, we would have no idea how much time passed between 11 and 13. thats what i am asking.
The timer starts on page 11. I went over the time pass and attributed it to 15 seconds, which is more than reasonable.
Beside, i personally dont see Black Adam not getting koed without 5 mins (even if that be the time frame) to suggest they stalemated, its too short a fight to make an interpretation over, but lets agree to disagree.
I do. Many comicbook fights have occured shorter than that. Adam actually changed his tactic and went toe-to-toe with Ultraman rather than using useless magic. I saw no indication that Ultraman won or even dominated, the fight cuts back to punches (which, has been taking place for pages we can easily gauge) and it cuts back to Ultraman who is visibly hurt. The first few pages of the aftermath of the fight show Ultraman to be visibly tired.
Also, were the heroes Hulk fought up to par with the heroes Teth fought? Which include:
It really didn't. They just decided to do it together. Parallax could have solo'd that, and without Parallax, Adam basically moved most of it, which would only make him marginally weaker than Ultraman.
We agreed to disagree on this one.
Its personal interpretation.
But, we are shown a stomped Justice League. On the floor, beaten.
Yeah off panel, and he has the whole Braniac power flowing through him.
Was it not stated on-panel? It was explained Mother Box technology makes him more efficient I believe.
Not that i can recall, no.
And it still doesnt take away Superman actually fighting Doomsday without mother box, during Doomsday Wars.
H/P version > Doomsday Wars.
Where do you get this from, specially when the comics itself says Doomsday War was stronger.
Hunter Prey, Doomsday War and Our World At War are the same version of Doomsday, the Doomsday was killed in Our World at War, cloned and defeated by Superman in Action Comics because it has a vulnerability, it was scared of Death which weakened him. Doomsday then let go of the vulnerability by turning himself into a mindless brute in Infinite Crisis and still got beaten by 2 Superman , the scan Lev posted.
Beside you do realize beating JLA , the feat you keep quoting, its from Doomsday War as opposed to Hunter Prey story arc right?
The timer starts on page 11. I went over the time pass and attributed it to 15 seconds, which is more than reasonable.
But thats another of your assumption though not a fact.
Once something is not clearly on panel a lot can be argued against it.
I do. Many comicbook fights have occured shorter than that. Adam actually changed his tactic and went toe-to-toe with Ultraman rather than using useless magic. I saw no indication that Ultraman won or even dominated, the fight cuts back to punches (which, has been taking place for pages we can easily gauge) and it cuts back to Ultraman who is visibly hurt. The first few pages of the aftermath of the fight show Ultraman to be visibly tired.
Personal opinion though, doesnt change much.
Lets agree to disagree.
As per seeing no indication that Ultraman dominated or won, we basically see 2 panels of the fight.
Evidence of this. Not to mention you have to somehow reconcile Superman without the Motherbox, doing just as well against a more powerful version of Doomsday, despite Doomsday having extra equipment to back himself up.
Log in to comment