WW2 Germany vs WW2 America

This is a what if scenario where Germany had beaten Russia and its only target now is the USA. atom bomb does not exist and is not being invented. Germany replenished its losses after beating Russia. 1st round is in mainland Europe. 2nd round is on U.S soil.

Hitler solo :P

Both at their peak? Germany and it isn't very close. They were dominating all the allies combined on both fronts until hitler made some stupid decisions.

@thedailybagel: How are they going to invade USA though?

Depends on how much losses Germany took after defeating Russia, and where the battle takes place (on mainland Europe or US soil).

Germany was the clear #1 superpower at the time, but they were spread too thin taking on all the other top super powers at the time. One on one, they would have crushed the US.

Germany, duh.

Do your research.

I have done my research, im just curious to see what people think.

With what Navy is Germany going to defeat the US with? Germany didn't even have the navy to cross the english channel, let alone the atlantic ocean.

US Production and Manpower was far superior to any nation of the time. The US was entirely self sufficient in resources as well. Germany could never beat them. The US would win every time, eventually.

Anyone who thinks Germany stands a chance, has no idea what they're talking about. German military doctrine was failing as early as 1941 when they failed to win with Barbarossa. Their tactics were supreme, but they had no strategical way to beat the USSR and they would be even worse off against the US.

And in 1944, the USSR completely encircled and destroyed Army Group Center and Army Group North during Bagration. These weren't old men and young boys the Germans were throwing at them either, these were trained, proper military units that had been in combat for years.

@fallschirmjager: Thank you very much.

Essentially this, although I'd argue that Germany had a superior army at their peak, compared with US forces. That, and Hitler Youth managed to ensure a supply of healthy and strong new recruits.

I thought only army group center was destroyed.

@bullettimer: I wasn't making the case the US army was better, it was just good enough. Germany's army wasn't unbeatable by any means. And It doesn't matter if their army is superior if it has no way to go where it needs to go.

@fallschirmjager: But in round 1 it is only in mainland Europe.

@johnfrank120: Army Group North got cut off in the Baltic area. They renamed it Army Group Courland and it surrender on May 8. While technicially not destroyed, it was effectively cut off and removed from the equation.

They renamed what remained of the mostly destroyed AGC to Army Group north which continued to fight through East Prussia until Surrendering later in the war.

@fallschirmjager: Ah, ok. Thanks for clearing it up.

@johnfrank120: And Germany still gonna lose. Even say the manage to kick the US out of europe, so what? The US had air and naval supremacy by the end of the war and could come back any time they wanted. Hence why I said "eventually".

WW2 was for unconditional surrender, and Germany never had a way to enforce that on the US.

What's really funny is the US never declared on Germany. Japan attacked and we declared on Japan but not Germany. We probably would have not directly confronted Germany if Hitler had not declared war on the US.

Granted, we were still supplying the Brits and the Soviets and the Germans were sinking our supply ships so it might have happened eventually, but it would have been later.

Germany's mistakes in WW2 was basically made prior to the war. They spent way too much time and money building their surface fleet to try and be what it use to be. Had they built the 300 U-boats Donitz wanted, they would have easily obliterated the British merchant fleet (they almost did twice, and they started the war with like 30~ subs, only like 6 of which were modern). Defeat the Brits and the US would NEVER even consider entering the war. You also save manpower and resources of the Luftwaffe avoiding the Battle of Britain and then you can really throw 100% of your might into Russia and maybe do something. Maybe.

Most people will say not capturing Moscow was their mistake, but if you think about, Germany was all ready stretched to the limit at the end of Barbarossa. Keep in mind Moscow is bigger than both Stalingrad and Lenningrad and they failed to capture both of those cities with far better resources then they would have had at Moscow. If Germany tried to start a siege of Moscow in winter of 1941 they still lose.

You could also point to Hitler sending Guderian's panzerkorps south to deal with the Urkainian front as a mistake, but I also wouldn't want Army group Center advancing to moscow iwth an entire flank open to that said flank. The soldiers in the Ukraine had to be dealt with and Rundstedt's Army Group South was not capable of defeating it, since about 50% of his men were Romanian, Hungarian, Bulgarian and Italians aka not reliable.

Again who knows though. Not wasting 6 weeks of Spring in 1941 to deal with Yugoslavia and Greece could have helped too. And of course you get Rommel and the Afikakorps ramapaging in Europe. I still doubt Germany wins 1v1 vs USSR, but who knows.

@fallschirmjager said:

I agree with what you have said, but I think what the OP means is that in round 1 if they drive the US out of mainland Europe they win, as they could concentrate vast amounts of troops, have access to huge amounts of resources, etc into Europe, but to make sure:

@harriso: What are the win conditions for round 1?

@johnfrank120: Germany would get stuck at Sicily. All the US has to do is bring some aircraft carriers and they can bunker down indefinitely. Assuming they got pushed that far anyway.

Hell, they might not even need carriers. Just a sizable navy and air presence.

@harriso: In round 1 what lands does the US hold?

@fallschirmjager: Fair enough, however with all the resources and labour they can get from the USSR, they could have enough to then make a two pronged attack or consistently raid them to try and wear them down, before launching the attack and if they were very desperate they could invade Spain and Morocco or call on their Spanish allies and blockade any reinforcements.

@johnfrank120: Germany basically screwed themselves over when they started killing people in the USSR. Most of the people welcomed them as liberators. But occupying the USSR would take an enormous amount of manpower and partisan activity would be even more insane than it all ready was.

Their gain in manpower and resources would have been very negligible. I mean, they hadn't even subdued Poland by 1944. In fact it just got worse every year.

Just look what happened in WW1. Germany had to leave some 1m+ troops to garrison the territory the won from Russia after their surrender. Bet those 1m men would have come in handy in Spring of 1918.

@johnfrank120: The problem with capturing USSR is, the greater territory they gain results in a larger front to cover and Germans, or any other single nation, simply cannot achieve it due to manpower.

@mandarinestro: @fallschirmjager: Fair enough. Occupying such large areas with determined partisans is a huge drain on manpower and resources, Vietnam, Afganistan, Iraq are all prime examples, and for nations at the time, China held up vast amounts of Japanese forces.

@johnfrank120: Btw, didn’t you say your grandfather fought in the Chinese Civil War?

@mandarinestro: Yes I did, what about it?

@johnfrank120: Yep. Japan's didnt matter too much though. The islands we fought on were too small to field large forces. The pacific war was won with the navy

The fact that there was like no Japanese surrenders were insane. Was it Iwo Jima? Japs put 22,000 men on the island and only 200 surrendered? Every other one had to be killed.

Absolutely insane. It happened on other battles too like Pelilieu and stuff. Usually big battles you kill 10-25% of the men, the rest surrender. Like the huge battles on the Eastern front, most causalities were captured. Japanese forces...didn't surrender.

It just shows insane devotion to the emperor, there were mass suicides before the Americans arrived as they feared they would be raped and tortured.

@johnfrank120: I figured you'd know a lot about it since your grandparents would have passed on the knowledge firsthand.

@mandarinestro: I do know quite a bit, but he doesn't remember too much since he was only 16.

@johnfrank120: Pretty young eh. Many Nazi ground troops were that age, though so not much surprise.

Usa would win

This.

America wins. People her forget America fought on two war fronts too. We beaten both fronts handily too.

With the superior naval forces America has, add in the Marines that were so battle harden with the hard island hopping battles, we take this.

would be a better fight with both on their prime, probbaly the most stupid decision of germany was 1. going into war with UDSSR 2. starting the war to early, if they would have created all their super-weapons they would have won, most of them came to late when they did not have the ressources any more

Of course there is going to be more support for the us of a, but i think the Germans will win eventually. By the end of the war they had some scary stuff that they couldn't properly put to use in their situation, stuff that the Americans can't counter. If they got plane production up then there is no question, their jets literary fly circles around USA planes.