Wonder Woman vs. Lady Shiva

Only because Batman has fought and even defeated skilled opponents with better feats than Diana has in the skill department. That's why that showing doesn't tell the whole picture and thus stands as an argument when Diana faces Batman in a H2H fight. Plus how do we know where her skill starts and her brute force ends?

Well given that she faces gods, monsters and creatures from mythology on a regular basis, I'd say one needs to be pretty physically powerful to deal with them as well as having good skill feats too.

I agree, her skill feats have been portrayed quite well under the right writers. As I said though, who knows where her skill starts and brute force ends in her super powered skill feats.

Not really given that Shiva has effortlessly owned Nightwing, Connor Hawke who are both respectable fighters and Post Husg Killer Croc ie after the amp he'd been given in that arc. Diana hasn't shown that level of skill whilst depowered against superhuman foes to my knowledge.

This is I should say one really unfair matchup.Diana is skilled enough to take some martial artists that are good but not that much and Shiva is way more skilled than that much.In such conditions and in any kind of conditions in which Wonder Woman is depowered,Shiva would whoop her ass.

@lvenger: When skill stops and brute force starts is pretty much impossible to say and also applicable to Batman (peak human condition) and Shiva and everyone else who doesn't have some weird superpower. Also, perhaps we should take into account that without gadgets, skill is really all Batman has (it's rare he has to be smarter rather than skilled to overcome someone in a fight).

But not exceptionally so, and I say that only because most of Diana's physical foes rely on brute force rather than skill, those that aren't are either never really engaged or have some other means of attack.

And like I said, it still requires a good amount of strength to pull off the stuff these people do. But I remember one instance of Simone's WW where the Queen of Fables had taken over her movie shoot and depowered Diana, tied her up and thrown her in the arena with two centaurs. Diana frees herself by antagonizing the pair and by knowing where to stand, she arms herself with the axes of one of the centaurs and is at the end ready to fight the Queen who (predictable) turns into a dragon... but ends up with a pair of axes in her eyes.

Also, we might be able to judge Diana by her sisters. Like we know Diana is the greatest of all Amazons as a fact, or she wouldn't be WW. And we've seen in (yes) Amazons Attack, that unnamed Amazons can shoot down jet fighters with arrow, and that two nameless Amazons nearly managed to cream Batman in Arlington (I think it was).

I have to admit I don't consider Nightwing or Hawke anywhere near the top 10 combatants (but I know next to nothing about Hawke), Nightwing is the greatest acrobat in DC, but honestly Damian is a better fighter than him, or was. As for Croc... well he gets beat up by just about everyone because his strength and durability is never quite enough to offset the various gadgets the bats carry around. Unfortunately for him, his greatest physical achievement will be his time as the Hydra... where he faced Diana.

sorry xD

Wonder Woman's miliennia worth of training & brutal battles against humanity, gods & goddesses, soccerress, demons, and villians & superheroes themselves prove to me that she is a much better combatant against a street level characters--who was taken down by the Black Canary. Lady Shiva is normally a character that's underused, but she possess the necessary skills & fighting prowness to fight against Diana for just 2-5 minnutes maximum untile she has been KO.

Shiva.

WW.

shiva

Wonder Woman is younger than Batman. She has been younger than Batman for decades now. Jesus Christ, why do people keep insisting she's thousands of years old?

Also, I dunno, in a straight 1v1 I'd say Shiva wins, but Diana has a year of training from a martial arts master who knows how Shiva fights, while Shiva is for some reason spending a year with Cheetah.

@saren: Both Wonder Woman & Superman fought in Asgard for over 1,000 years.

Shiva Ftw.

Doesn't time work differently in Valhalla? A thousand years was probably a couple of hours in earth time.

@phoenixdiamond616: No, no she doesn't.

First scan, sparring with Batman is irrelevant as Diana had her powers there.

Second, killing some fodder while depowered is something Shiv does every time she appears in a comic.

Third, same as the second scan, Shiva has done it more often and has done it better.

Fourth, PIS, Flash or MMH alone would give her a solid fight, both of them together against a blindfolded Diana during a training session with them clearly holding back to a huge degree doesn't help Diana's case for skill.

Let alone Shiva's

Shiva one-shots.

@paragonnate: maybe you are right. But that would be an incredible fight

Heck I haven't seen anything that would put her on Nightwing's level.

@phoenixdiamond616: I wouldn't say that, Shiva is superior to Diana in every way. It's more like Shiva walks in, hits Diana once or twice, and Diana won't be able to stop her. End fight.

Standing: Lady Shiva via head kick (ko)

Ground: Wonder Woman via armbar. I am actually not joking. Diana's wrestling could really help in this situation.

Shiva stomps. Diana's skill is very vague and implied, a lot of the time people rank her as one of the top 10 martial artists in DC and she just isn't.

Shiva stomps

Considering the fact that Diana is the best of all the Amazons who are trained martial arts masters (at least two have fought batman and given him a hard fight) and she herself keeps up with Batman in any sparring fight they've ever had...her skill should be on the level. She simply doesn't have the same feats, but by statements and fights against others, it's close.

WW has defeated batman quite a few times in H2H battles in skill only, besides, she has been training her fighting skills for atleast 2 millenium, and with the batman as her coach, i'm pretty sure he would figure he would show WW how to defeat shiva, along with about 2 dozen fighting styles

There are some other aspects we might have to consider here.

• Diana's depowered condition. Diana has been depowered to a normal human, Cheetah as never really fought Diana other than when she has been superpowered, so she can't really help Shiva on that account, especially not when Batman might insist on having Diana learn a different kind of fighting rythm, just to throw Shiva off (who will have to make do with recordings now).
• The second thing is that, as mentioned before, Cheetah is of next to no use to Shiva as a trainer. Shiva is one of the highest ranked fighters on the planet, while Cheetah fights exclusively like an animal, all rage, teeth and claws. Batman however can give Diana an extensive two week course in Shiva before they even hit the mat.
• Last thing, while some (like Slade) call Amazons outdated, there is an element to them that everyone else needs to consider before trying to engage one in a fight: stubbornness. Like their sport of origins is wrestling, the real kind, from a time when a winner was decided when the opponent stopped moving. Like, it was on display when Diana fought Superman and he broke her wrist and burnt her face, she kept going. And we saw it again with Donna Troy after Prometheus had nailed her arms to the wall:

• My point is that Shiva has to make damn sure Diana is either dead or unconscious, because otherwise Diana is just going to catch her off guard and cream her.

I was leaning more towards Shiva but wonder woman could is not an easy defeat even under these conditions,

No, Diana has never beaten Bruce using just her skill. Good God, Diana is not thousands of years old, she's been younger than Batman for decades now. In the New 52 she's only in her 20s for God's sake. I don't know how Bruce can teach her how to beat Shiva in only a year, seeing as he has been training for decades and he still has the fight of his life on his hands every time he faces her.

Always wanted to reply to this thread but got lazy.

Diana has no feats that put her above or even in the class as Deathstroke or even Black Canary. I'd put them both above her in h2h skill. For every feat of Diana "using" skill they'll be loads of feats of her fighting like a brute and punching till someone gives up, like Cheetah. Both before mentioned characters are more consistent due to being street leveler or so.

Anyways, Shiva stomps her tbh. Though Cheetah will be pretty useless unless she wants to hear that one time where Cheetah almost died after an encounter with Diana. Or the time she lost to her and got her tail ripped off even though Diana was still feeling the effects of Genocide's wrath.

xoxo, -Saint Sophie

I'm late, I know, but I put her in that skill position not due to feats since she lacks, true, but to stats and how a lot of writers and some comic character places her in pure skill... and since she doesn't have enough showings (or is at least being seriously underestimated) while depowered, I also checked for some GA and SA feats... might not be enough, but still good...

What I mean, currently...

Shiva wins by feats, Diana wins by comic logic and reputation writers give her...

After doing more research, I actually found interesting Amazons' strength and speed (which is a lot since Artemis shouldn't be that above the average Amazon stats), which are result of their training and skill...

With that said, we couldn't possibly say something like 'stats equalized to human stats' for fighters like Karate Kid (which stats are high due to his training and skills as well), Wonder Woman or Artemis, due to their high stats being result of their training and skill (this of course without the boost that was given to Diana by the Gods when she entered Man's World)... saying so would be like eliminating part of their skill so they can adapt to lower stats...

In all case, the battle would be more like Lady Shiva vs Wonder Woman with her base stats (her Amazon stats)... WW might still be stronger by a considerable amount but it be because of her training and skill... tho this is more for her current version... her Post-Crisis version strength was given since birth... while current Diana's powers were given when she entered Man's World...

And we can assume Diana (pre-Gods' visit) had Amazon stats (a bit higher due to being the best Amazon) due to the fact the other Amazons could catch up and have great matches with her in the Island... and even in recent comics it's been shown Diana was not always as strong as she has been now...

Shiva obviously.

Lady Shiva.

Shiva stomps in h2h combat.

To be honest, i understand why most of you say shiva has a bigger chance, since she has so many feats in comics that revolves the notion that shiva is one of the top martial artists in the world ever. It has been the focus and center of her story and her fight scenes as she has no superpower at all. So the story we’ve read richly and extensively features the excellence of her fighting skills, which is why it really seems that lady shiva is the most powerful combat fighter in the world. That said, what most people don’t how about is how skilful Wonder Woman actually is, thanks to lack of feature in her comics throughout the years by her writers. It’s not completely inexplicable though when we consider the fact that Wonder Woman has so much more superpowers to explore than her skilfulness. But the fact is, she had trained for thousands of years by both the God of War himself and the Amazons. The former personifies all martial arts spirits, warriors of all ages, who had been there as anchor to all the best warriors and fighters ever since the creation of humans(for million years) , thus literally the combination and origin of all kinds of martial arts on earth itself. He who trained Diana to one day take on the mentor as God of War(controlling and becomes war itself), definitely outmanoeuvre Lady shiva with mortality. To say nothing of the fact that Wonder Woman had also trained with the best Amazons, the best race of warriors the world has ever known for THOUSANDS of years. Throughout that time, before Wonder Woman even got superpowers, she fought with countless of the world’s most dangerous ancient monsters and put them on their knees. Not only Batman himself said she is the best fighter in the whole dc universe, but also Geoff Johns, one of the lead executive of the DC universe, made it very clear. We also have to remember the warrior spirit inside Wonder Woman is unparalleled throughout the universe. I mean, it is no doubt that i know most of you agree that batman could defeat lady shiva in skills. Yet Wonder Woman could is said to be able to defeat batman too in skill, only that batman could outthink Wonder Woman to get a better chance of winning. I believe she could definitely defeat shiva if she really wants it. It is just unfortunate that her writers had not extended on those facts and demonstrated how skilful Wonder Woman could be and didn’t do her justice