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#1 Edited by Alak (924 posts) - - Show Bio

FIGHT SET-UP (PLEASE READ FIRST)

  • Pre-52 incarnations
  • Wonder Woman is de-powered (limited to max female human strength, durability, and speed feats)
  • No equipment for either combatant (they fight in training clothes)
  • Fight takes place in the UFC Octagon
  • Hand-to-Hand only
  • Fight ends when one fighter gets knocked out, submitted, or killed
  • This will be their first fight with one another
  • Both get a 1 year preparatory period. Batman coaches WW and Cheetah coaches Shiva.

Who do you guys think will come out on top as the better fighter? Batman himself has acknowledged that both women are superior to him in melee combat. Both have been raised since childhood as practitioners of two different, but effective, styles of fighting. I think it would be pretty close.

#2 Posted by Juiceboks (7796 posts) - - Show Bio

It would be very close indeed. However I believe Shiva would come out on top.

#3 Posted by Saren (25273 posts) - - Show Bio

Shiva wrecks.

And I don't know why Cheetah of all people is training her; Shiva can train herself for a year and still come out on top.

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#4 Posted by Alak (924 posts) - - Show Bio

The only reason why I included coaches is so that the fighter can get some insight on her opponent. Both Batman and Cheetah are worse than their trainees, but are considered to be rivals of the combatants' respective opponents. Therefore, they can give helpful tips based on past experiences in order to reduce the chance of being surprised in the ring. I could have just said that both fighters have full knowledge of one another, but I preferred to keep a little bit of uncertainty for the sake of entertainment. Otherwise, I think it would've been too close to call.

#5 Edited by Saren (25273 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman isn't worse than his trainee by any definition of the word. Wonder Woman has never done anything to suggest she is remotely on Batman's level. The only thing that supports that statement is some nonsense from McDuffie.

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#6 Posted by RBT (4041 posts) - - Show Bio

I hope you got this idea from Batman vs Iron Man thread.

I say Shiva.

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#7 Posted by Alak (924 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

I hope you got this idea from Batman vs Iron Man thread.

I say Shiva.

Nah, it was something that was on my mind. I tried to look it up but no results came up from the search function that answered my question. So, I decided to just ask the community :-)

#8 Posted by TDK_1997 (14456 posts) - - Show Bio

Shiva easily.

I don't see why does she need training at all and especially from Cheetah.

#9 Posted by RBT (4041 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by RBT (4041 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman isn't worse than his trainee by any definition of the word. Wonder Woman has never done anything to suggest she is remotely on Batman's level. The only thing that supports that statement is some nonsense from McDuffie.

I agree.

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#11 Posted by Pokeysteve (8025 posts) - - Show Bio

Wonder Woman is good but shouldn't be put at Shiva's level. Not many people are.

#12 Posted by Amaranth (8210 posts) - - Show Bio

Diana is skilled but Shiva is significantly more skilled and should be the victor here.

#13 Posted by dondave (34339 posts) - - Show Bio

Shiva ftw

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#14 Edited by BigCimmerian (7851 posts) - - Show Bio

Shiva kills her.

#15 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

Shiva stomps.

#16 Posted by SNascimento (438 posts) - - Show Bio

The problem with judging WW's h2h skills is that when her force stops and her skill start. For example, she beat Artemis in the last WW issue, and she did it with her skill and cunning. Artemis is extremely powerful and has fought for thousands of years. Now how you judge that compared to a normal person taking down a full squadron of soldiers of something like that?

#17 Edited by Theorder14 (1348 posts) - - Show Bio

@snascimento:

well, experience only get you so far, it depends. i know of a character that only had around 20 years combat experience and he easily won against some1 with thousands years of experience.

#18 Posted by THEOCITYLEGEND (1158 posts) - - Show Bio

Shiva wrecks Wonder Woman

#19 Posted by Nefarious (18646 posts) - - Show Bio

Shiva is the better H2H combatant.

#20 Posted by THEOCITYLEGEND (1158 posts) - - Show Bio

I am also yet to see a h2h feat that proves Wonder Woman to be on Batmans level.

#21 Edited by RBT (4041 posts) - - Show Bio

@THEOCITYLEGEND There are none.

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#22 Edited by Alak (924 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanks for all the feedback, guys! Looks like this fight is a lot more one-sided than I thought it would be. What actually surprised me the most is how people also seem to unanimously agree on that WW is not up to par with Batman in terms of fighting skill. I recall reading a 3-year old battle thread:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/no-powers-batman-vs-wonder-woman-523706/

Back then, it seemed like the opinion was fairly divided. Therefore, I assumed WW vs. Shiva would be a close match. Looks like public view has changed a lot since the creation of that topic. Again, thanks to everyone who took the time to give a response!

#24 Edited by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt:wonder woman without powers have defeated low level monsters,and other stuff so i think this isn't as one-sided as some people think,shiva would win but i don't think is a stomp.

#25 Posted by Enzeru (2954 posts) - - Show Bio

Shiva stomps :-|

Deathstroke made fun of Wonder Woman's out-dated fighting style.

#26 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (11782 posts) - - Show Bio

@enzeru: Then got promptly shoved into a trunk....

#27 Posted by comic_book_fan (5242 posts) - - Show Bio

Shiva wins pretty easily she is capable of fighting batman who has shown to give wonder woman a decent fight even with her powers without them I really don't see this lasting very long.

#28 Posted by RBT (4041 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt:wonder woman without powers have defeated low level monsters,and other stuff so i think this isn't as one-sided as some people think,shiva would win but i don't think is a stomp.

It kind of is. Even depowered Wonder Woman you're talking about is an amazon. They are way stronger than humans. Limiting her to human strength would get her in a lots of trouble. She would loose to most of the bat family. Shiva is way too much.

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#29 Posted by JayAaerow (450 posts) - - Show Bio

Shiva in my opinion.

#30 Posted by Enzeru (2954 posts) - - Show Bio

Then got promptly shoved into a trunk....

You as a Wonder Woman expert:
Do you think there is any value to that statement? That Wonder Woman strikes one as a skilled martial artist, but that in the end of the day it's out-dated and can easily be out-"played" by comic book standards?

Thinking logically about it... it doesn't matter. If someone hits you, you'll feel the pain and it doesn't matter what kind of a fighting style that person is using, but at the same time it can't be said that knockout power goes over technique. Good footwork and precise strikes will pick the opponent apart, who just tries to land that one shot.

#31 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (11782 posts) - - Show Bio

@enzeru: I'm just saying, Slade woke up in some dudes car after he tried to fight Wonder Woman....it is what it is

#32 Posted by greenteaforme (1826 posts) - - Show Bio

Wonder Woman has shown sufficient speed and ability to block bullets with no powers.

#33 Edited by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt:i just think that some people underestimates wonder woman's skills,i don't think this is a stomp,specially if the fightig skills that she showed in the late 60s are still considered part of the character standard,but some post crisis skills.

training with the JL.

training with batman.

without powers.

#34 Posted by Bat_Girl_CC (1477 posts) - - Show Bio

shiva wins easy

#35 Posted by Wolverine08 (38546 posts) - - Show Bio

shiva wins easy

Didn't really need a bump.

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#36 Edited by Experio (14100 posts) - - Show Bio

Shiva.

#37 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (4552 posts) - - Show Bio

Shiva.

#38 Posted by DarthAznable (5794 posts) - - Show Bio

Well if Bats can take Wonder Woman...Shiva definitely has this.

#39 Posted by Worlds_only_DC_fan (118 posts) - - Show Bio

As Deathstroke once stated in a videogame "Amazons are an obsolete race with predictable tactics."

-Deathstroke Injustice

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#40 Posted by Outside_85 (8110 posts) - - Show Bio

@worlds_only_dc_fan said:

As Deathstroke once stated in a videogame "Amazons are an obsolete race with predictable tactics."

-Deathstroke Injustice

Half of the way Deathstroke fights is to get people riled up by throwing insults like that around.

Anyways I will say Diana takes this through a mix of existing skill and determination, she will benefit the most from her teacher whom she already matches, and she is still peak human condition and shes the sort of character that will keep going until she is unconscious or dead. And (sadly perhaps) Shiva is a character thats more scary on paper than she is on page, sometimes we get to see glimmers of how good she is but quite a few times we see her defeated to help the story (like having some girl smash a chair over her head).

#41 Posted by Bat_Girl_CC (1477 posts) - - Show Bio

##

@worlds_only_dc_fan said:

As Deathstroke once stated in a videogame "Amazons are an obsolete race with predictable tactics."

-Deathstroke Injustice

Half of the way Deathstroke fights is to get people riled up by throwing insults like that around.

Anyways I will say Diana takes this through a mix of existing skill and determination, she will benefit the most from her teacher whom she already matches, and she is still peak human condition and shes the sort of character that will keep going until she is unconscious or dead. And (sadly perhaps) Shiva is a character thats more scary on paper than she is on page, sometimes we get to see glimmers of how good she is but quite a few times we see her defeated to help the story (like having some girl smash a chair over her head).

i agree, sadly lady shiva Pre-New 52 got beaten to many times, for someone that should be invencible!...i understand that DC can't have villains beating heroes to often, but they could have shiva beating black canary, and at some point in the fight canary using her bird call for the win...or shiva beating batman, and Batman using one of his gadgets fo the win...this would be "good writting"

i like the way new 52 lady shiva is being writted, she already defeated both Batman and robin (dick grayson) at the same time, on Nightwing zero year

and on Nightwing #13 i think, she beat nightwing after a good fight

i just hope DC continues to write lady shiva properly...and they could / should bring back cassandra cain...since shiva is now to young to be her mother, she could be her older sister, or something

#42 Posted by IcePrince_X (4849 posts) - - Show Bio

Wonder Woman for me. She has proven that even without power, her skills and training and smart fighter...she can crack Lady Shiva

#43 Edited by Lvenger (18274 posts) - - Show Bio

Shiva stomps. Diana has some pretty good skill feats, it's true but Shiva has stalemated a master of 127 martial arts styles and been involved in the retraining of said master. That alone is above what Diana can do in terms of skill.

#44 Posted by laflux (14118 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

Shiva stomps. Diana has some pretty good skill feats, it's true but Shiva has stalemated a master of 127 martial arts styles and been involved in the retraining of said master. That alone is above what Diana can do in terms of skill.

#45 Posted by dondave (34339 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@lvenger said:

Shiva stomps. Diana has some pretty good skill feats, it's true but Shiva has stalemated a master of 127 martial arts styles and been involved in the retraining of said master. That alone is above what Diana can do in terms of skill.

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#46 Posted by Outside_85 (8110 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

Shiva stomps. Diana has some pretty good skill feats, it's true but Shiva has stalemated a master of 127 martial arts styles and been involved in the retraining of said master. That alone is above what Diana can do in terms of skill.

She did pretty well in the above scan, since the unmentioned master can only be Batman.

#47 Posted by Lvenger (18274 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

Shiva stomps. Diana has some pretty good skill feats, it's true but Shiva has stalemated a master of 127 martial arts styles and been involved in the retraining of said master. That alone is above what Diana can do in terms of skill.

She did pretty well in the above scan, since the unmentioned master can only be Batman.

The above scan doesn't take into account the sheer extent of feats and showings Batman has against far more skilled opponents than Wonder Woman and even Shiva at times. What do you expect, he's DC's most popular character now so he can get more feats in his fights and that's the case here. Batman has way more and better skill feats than Diana yet Shiva always does well against Batman. Aside from in Public Enemies but that was Loeb writing the fight so what do you expect?

#49 Posted by Nothing2Lose (37 posts) - - Show Bio

Shiva is formidable, but Diana's martial training extends back to her childhood (like Leonidas in 300) and incorporates several styles, as well. Besides, I imagine sparring with Batman and other hand-to-hand combatants in the JLA have taught her how to be flexible and to account for differences in style. I do not mean to be contrary with many well-articulated opinions, but Wonder Woman wins it.

#50 Edited by Outside_85 (8110 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

The above scan doesn't take into account the sheer extent of feats and showings Batman has against far more skilled opponents than Wonder Woman and even Shiva at times. What do you expect, he's DC's most popular character now so he can get more feats in his fights and that's the case here. Batman has way more and better skill feats than Diana yet Shiva always does well against Batman. Aside from in Public Enemies but that was Loeb writing the fight so what do you expect?

I have to say that 'doesnt take into account of stuff that happened else where at some other time' isn't a very good argument, but only because it's ignoring whats actually happening on the page.

But I agree that if Batman wasn't busy multitasking several phone-calls at the same time, he might have done better, but I wonder how much considering that it's pretty much how he is always working. I also agree that Diana may not have the sheer amount of 'skill feats' Batman has, primarily because skills is all Batman has besides toys and Diana's foes tend to need less skill than brute force.

Fact however is that Diana, even when depowered, can kick a huge amount of ass with her skills (as Black Canary testied, who is also considered one of the greatest fighters within DC). What gets in the way of them really showing however is her colossal amount of strength and speed.

As for Shiva, yes she may, in the right hands, do well against Batman and loose because he's more popular. But her problem is also that her reputation sets her up as a target for someone to knock down to prove something; Like Drake not being super stupid, that she might be too focused on a target (Catwoman) at times, or Huntress being tougher than everyone thinks... and Cass Cain being well on the way to super MA stardom just from carrying Shiva's genes.