Women Warriors Bracket Battle: Streetlevel

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#1  Edited By owie  Moderator

This is the first of several all-female bracket battles.

This bracket is all streetlevel women in hand-to-hand combat.  I will give the specifics on each character, but generally none of them have any of their powers, except any that are directly involved in hand-to-hand combat, such as speed/strength/regeneration etc.
 
I should note that this is obviously does not include all of the top female fighters, I left a lot out even though I doubled my normal bracket size.
 
Choose the winner of each first-round fight, then choose the winners of the women who move up to the second round  fights, and so on.  The last one standing is the winner.

WHO WINS EACH BATTLE?


The battle takes place in the depopulated village of Hobbiton (rolling hills, scattered trees).  Each battle has a starting distance of 10'.

Win by any means. Each participant is completely re-energized and repaired before each new battle. Morals off, but otherwise in character.
 
I should note that this is a pretty big field and I don't expect everyone to know all the characters in detail.  Please feel free to guess when necessary.  It is a lot more interesting to have several partially-confident comments than 1 or 2 perfectly-knowledgeable comments.

Versions:

Unless otherwise noted, the characters are current/most recent living version.  For DC, this means they are New52 versions unless otherwise noted, but feel free to use pre-52 feats when there are few new-52 feats.

Gamora is pre-enhancement (normal strength etc. levels).  Elektra has no chi scream.  Mantis is classic, with no powers.  Shuri has the powers of the herb.  Psylocke has no powers.  Mockingbird has the super-soldier-serum.  Misty Knight's arm has no abilities other than strength.  Ana Kravinoff has her father's potion.  Stephanie Brown is Pre-52 Batgirl era.  Silk Spectre is Laurie Juspeczyk and can use old or new Watchmen feats.  Typhoid Mary is in her standard persona and has no powers.  Shanna is classic, not the alternate universe super-powered version.

Weapons:

Every woman has the option of fighting unarmed, or with a pair of katanas.
 
Some women may also use their standard personal weapons, as listed here (or they may choose to use the katanas instead):
Elektra: 2 sais.  Miho: 1 katana, 1 kusari-gama.  Finesse: 2 batons.  Cass Cain: 5 batarangs.  Christine Spar: electrified "fork" spear.  Huntress: crossbow with normal bolts, metal staff.  Red Sonja: 2 longswords.  Shuri: normal metal claws.  Batwoman: 5 batarangs.  Cheshire: claws.  Mockingbird: 2 batons/staff.  Stephanie Brown: 5 batarangs.  Hellcat: claws.  Barbara Gordon: 5 batarangs.  Shanna: knife and bolo.  Catwoman: claws and whip.  Scarlett: crossbow with normal bolts, knife.  Harley Quinn: sledge hammer.

No one has any extra equipment other than what is listed: no utility belts, etc.  Shuri does not have the vibranium armor.  Black Widow does not have her Widows' Bite.
 
THE BRACKET:
 
No Caption Provided
 
Lady Shiva
Lady Shiva

Gamora
Gamora

Elektra
Elektra

Black Canary
Black Canary

Miho
Miho

Finesse
Finesse

Cassandra Cain
Cassandra Cain

Mantis
Mantis

Psylocke
Psylocke

Cheshire
Cheshire

Mockingbird
Mockingbird

Misty Knight
Misty Knight

Ana Kravinoff
Ana Kravinoff

Black Widow
Black Widow

Stephanie Brown
Stephanie Brown

Katana
Katana

Christine Spar
Christine Spar

Huntress
Huntress

Red Sonja
Red Sonja

Shuri
Shuri

Batwoman
Batwoman

Lady Bullseye
Lady Bullseye

Echo
Echo

Hit Girl
Hit Girl

Hellcat
Hellcat

Silk Spectre
Silk Spectre

Batgirl
Batgirl

Typhoid Mary
Typhoid Mary

Shanna the She-Devil
Shanna the She-Devil

Catwoman
Catwoman

 Scarlett
 Scarlett

Harley Quinn
Harley Quinn



Here's a list of the first round (with links) so you can just copy/paste it into your post:

You'll have to write them out as you answer each round after the first one. Please do answer each round if possible.  Thanks for your comments!
Lady Shiva v Gamora
Elektra v Black Canary
Miho vs Finesse
Cassandra Cain v Mantis
Psylocke v Cheshire
Mockingbird v Misty Knight
Ana Kravinoff v Black Widow
Stephanie Brown v Katana
Christine Spar v Huntress
Red Sonja v Shuri
Batwoman v Lady Bullseye
Echo v Hit Girl
Hellcat v Silk Spectre
Barbara Gordon v Typhoid Mary
Shanna the She-Devil v Catwoman
Scarlett v Harley Quinn
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#2  Edited By RumbleMan_Exe

Would not put gamorra and mantis (maybe psylocke) on street level

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#3  Edited By Pokeysteve

Can anyone here beat Cassandra Cain?........

That is probably the sexiest bracket I've ever seen. I don't mean the combatants but the actual bracket itself lol. Nice work.

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#4  Edited By owie  Moderator
@RumbleMan_Exe said:

Would not put gamorra and mantis (maybe psylocke) on street level

Their skills enable them to do crazy things, but they've got no powers, at least as involve hand to hand fighting.  Different people have different definitions of streetlevel, but that's why I put them (and similar folks) in here.  If you want a different title, this is a bracket battle among largely-non-powered hand-to-hand combatants.
 
@Pokeysteve said:

Can anyone here beat Cassandra Cain?........

That is probably the sexiest bracket I've ever seen. I don't mean the combatants but the actual bracket itself lol. Nice work.


Thanks!  I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that Gamora, Mantis, Elektra, Shiva, Finesse, maybe Miho, maybe Shuri, could beat Cass.  Not saying they would or wouldn't, but most of those characters would have their partisans in a fight against Cass.  For me personally, I like all the nitty-gritty individual fights leading up to the eventual winner more than I care about who the actual winner is.
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#5  Edited By owie  Moderator

Alright, maybe we'll get some comments/disagreements if I post my thoughts!
 
Here's how I see round 1.  I feel like a lot of these are very close.
Lady Shiva v Gamora: Shiva.  I feel like Gamora's skills are somewhat (not entirely) based more on rep than on-panel feats.
Elektra v Black Canary: Elektra.  She's more hard core and I feel like she's more agile and able to go for nerve hits, etc.
Miho vs Finesse: This is pretty hard to call.  I feel like Finesse could go far here.  On the other hand Miho is pretty bad a$$ and very mentally tough.  I think Finesse may ultimately take it.
Cassandra Cain v Mantis: I'm going with Mantis.  She's beaten a lot of high-level super-powered foes in addition to normal ones.  Obvioulsy a very tough fight.
Psylocke v Cheshire: Also hard to say.  Psylocke has had some crazy ninja moves recently.  In one of the AvX tie-ins, she was jumping around like crazy dodging stuff.  Cheshire may be more skilled.  I know less about her, so I could be persuaded to change my mind, but I am going with Psylocke right now.
Mockingbird v Misty Knight: Mockingbord has just never impressed me, even with the SSS.  Misty can be pretty tough--she took down Colleen Wing--and her arm gives her an edge.  Mockingbird is way more agile, but I think Misty beats her eventually.
Ana Kravinoff v Black Widow: I think Widow takes her down eventually.  Widow's SSS-like serum is not as good as Ana's, but she's had more experience.
Stephanie Brown v Katana: I'm less knowledgable about Katana, but I think she's got the skills edge on Steph and could take her out.
Christine Spar v Huntress: Huntress has far more training and skills.  But Christine has a pretty good weapon.  I think she'd do pretty well against Huntress but go down eventually.
Red Sonja v Shuri: Both are enhanced.  Shuri is probably more agile.  Shuri is probably more skilled in a refined sense, but Sonja has an insane amount of battle experience, basically killing all day long for years (a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the idea).  I think Sonja may actually take it out of pure hard-core killer-ness.
Batwoman v Lady Bullseye: I hear great things about Batwoman, and from what I've seen, she's pretty solid.  Lady Bullseye is also a top-tier fighter, described by DD as "at least as good as Bullseye."  But DD took her down fast on at least one occasion.  I'm leaning toward Batwoman.
Echo v Hit Girl: Echo should be able to mimic any skills HG has, plus she has plenty already stored up.  But Hit Girl is just nuts, which counts for a lot.  I'm really not sure who wins.  I want to say Hit Girl.  I didn't read all of the recent Moon Knight run, but Echo didn't seem as tough as she might be in the ones I did read.
Hellcat v Silk Spectre: Hellcat is probably more skilled.
Barbara Gordon v Typhoid Mary: Typhoid Mary's insanity and hard-core approach, plus her experience with bladed weapons, may give her the win here, although I could be persuaded otherwise.
Shanna the She-Devil v Catwoman: Catwoman has way more experience fighting in the metahuman world.  But Shanna has a lot of experience fighting in the survival of the fittest world of nature.  Catwoman probably has more skills in a traditional sense and probably wins by a teeny tiny bit.
Scarlett v Harley Quinn: Scarlett's training should give her the win.
 
ROUND 2:
Shiva vs Elektra: Shiva.  More skilled.
Finesse vs Mantis: Mantis.  Just too much skill and experience for Finesse to deal with. I think.
Psylocke vs Misty Knight: Psylocke's skills plus agility win here.
 Black Widow vs Katana: I'm torn.  I think I'm going for Katana, but again I'm basing this less on direct knowledge than rep.
Huntress vs Red Sonja: Red Sonja.  Too battle-hardened.
Batwoman vs Hit Girl: I think Batwoman would be more mentally prepared for Hit Girl than Echo, and would overwhelm her.
Hellcat vs Typhoid Mary: definitely Typhoid Mary.
Catwoman vs Scarlett: I think Scarlett has more skills and way more battle experience.
 
ROUND 3:
Shiva vs Mantis: This is in my mind the top female fighters of DC vs Marvel.  I honestly don't know who wins.  I think I'm going with Mantis out of pure gut intuition.
Psylocke vs Katana: Again, I think Psylocke has had some crazy agility stuff and wins based on that. Probably close to equal skills. I'm going with Psylocke, although I honestly hadn't expected her to get this far in the bracket.
Red Sonja vs Batwoman: for whatever reason, I think Batwoman can beat Red Sonja, even though I said Shuri couldn't.   It may not make logical sense, it's just my feeling.
Typhoic Mary vs Scarlett: I think Typhoid Mary by a bit.
 
ROUND 4:
Mantis vs Psylocke: Mantis.
Batwoman vs Typhoid Mary: Batwoman
 
ROUND 5:
Mantis vs Batwoman: Mantis for sure.
 
Where do you agree and where do you disagree?

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#6  Edited By Evil-Incarnate

@Pokeysteve said:

Can anyone here beat Cassandra Cain?........

That is probably the sexiest bracket I've ever seen. I don't mean the combatants but the actual bracket itself lol. Nice work.

Mantis, Gamora, Elektra...

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#7  Edited By queenfrost_

Love this battle!

ROUND 1

Lady Shiva v Gamora: Gamora. I wanted to say Lady Shiva because I am in LOVE with her, but the New52 Shiva took a hit from Nightwing. However, had this of been Pre-52 Shiva, she would have stomped Gamora's alien ass!
Elektra v Black Canary: Well...idk about this one. I'm gonna say Elektra, purely based on Dinah's fight with White Canary (who is very similar to Elektra). Elektra could strike Dinah's throat and thus eventually kick her down after a tough battle.
Miho vs Finesse: Finesse! Duh! She can fight like Iron Fist,
Cassandra Cain v Mantis: Cass. Gut instinct. Whilst Mantis may be better at fighting skills, Cass just knew how the human body worked. She understood it and would beat Mantis eventually.
Psylocke v Cheshire: Cheshire. Cheshire was regarded as second-to-Shiva in pre-52 (which is her current version). She would dodge all of Psylocke's 'usual' skills and poison her eventually.
Mockingbird v Misty Knight: Mockingbird. She is basically the female Captain America now. Still love my Misty though!
Ana Kravinoff v Black Widow: An easy win for Black Widow.
Stephanie Brown v Katana: Katana. I loved Steph, but Katana uses a sword as fluently as she breaths.
Christine Spar v Huntress: Huntress simply because she was trained by Batman and Catwoman in Earth-2.
Red Sonja v Shuri: Red Sonja. She basically lives to slay.
Batwoman v Lady Bullseye: Batwoman's amazing, but her fighting skills only go as far as the military. Lady Bullseye would be too cunning for her.
Echo v Hit Girl: Echo because she would mimic Hit Girl and just take that bitch out.
Hellcat v Silk Spectre: Silk Spectre because she's tougher than Patsy.
Barbara Gordon v Typhoid Mary: Babs! Babs is clever and would take down Typhoid Mary after a hard battle.
Shanna the She-Devil v Catwoman: Catwoman. As much as I hate it, the New52 Catwoman has a mystical element about her and would counter-act Shanna's animalistic type attacks.
Scarlett v Harley Quinn: Harley Quinn. Only because I know the Suicide Squad wouldn't allow her to be part of the team if she wasn't perfectly capable. Also she is like mentally unstable.

ROUND 2

Gamora vs Elektra: Gamora can do everything Elektra can do but with 5 different methods.
Finesse vs Cassandra Cain: Cass. Finesse would go to punch her and be dead in the next 4 seconds.
Cheshire vs Mockingbird: Mockingbird. Cheshire's poisons wouldn't affect her as much as they should do and Mockingbird's enhanced strength would take Cheshire off guard.
Black Widow vs Katana: Black Widow. Simply because she is faster and could quickly dis-arm Katana and take her down.
Huntress vs Red Sonja: Red Sonja. Had this been Helena, then it wouldve been a Huntress stomp.
Lady Bullseye vs Echo: Lady Bullseye. Echo would find it hard trying to mimic her - due to Bullseye's movements constantly changing - and Bullseye would take that opportunity to take her out.
Silk Spectre vs Barbara Gordon: no question its Babs.
Catwoman vs Harley Quinn: Catwoman. It would be a fair fight but Harley isn't as slick as Selina.

ROUND 3

Gamora vs Cass: This would be an epic fight. Both are the best female fighters in their respective universe. I would have to go with Gamora, because Cass wouldn't be able to interpret the moves Gamora is delivering.
Mockingbird vs Black Widow: People often pit them against eachother...Black Widow takes it becaue of experience and her slight edgy side.
Red Sonja vs Lady Bullseye: Red Sonja. Sonja would pummel Bullseye.
Barbara Gordon vs Catwoman: So tough! So evenly matched! But Babs because she was trained by Bruce. And you don't forget that!

ROUND 4

Gamora vs Black Widow: Gamora. C'mon now.
Red Sonja vs Barbara Gordon: Sonja. I'm telling you, Sonja's a menace.

ROUND 5

Gamora vs Red Sonja: Well duh. Gamora. Red Sonja somehow made it to this but Gamora would kill her so quick, she wouldn't even know what was happening.
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#8  Edited By Pokeysteve

@Evil Incarnate said:

@Pokeysteve said:

Can anyone here beat Cassandra Cain?........

That is probably the sexiest bracket I've ever seen. I don't mean the combatants but the actual bracket itself lol. Nice work.

Mantis, Gamora, Elektra...

I don't know who Mantis or Gamora are. What puts Elektra above Cass?

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#9  Edited By Floopay

Awwwww, my favorites aren't in here :(

Laura Kinney or Jessica Drews were going to be my picks.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#10  Edited By Evil-Incarnate

@Pokeysteve said:

@Evil Incarnate said:

@Pokeysteve said:

Can anyone here beat Cassandra Cain?........

That is probably the sexiest bracket I've ever seen. I don't mean the combatants but the actual bracket itself lol. Nice work.

Mantis, Gamora, Elektra...

I don't know who Mantis or Gamora are. What puts Elektra above Cass?

Mantis is like a female Karate Kid. I don't think Elektra is leaps above Cass, but I can see a battle between them going either way.

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#11  Edited By robertloucksjr

Gamora. Gamora does not have that much of a volume of comics, but she put down a TP (nano virus?) raped Terrax, spars with a holding back Thanos, and is considered the most dangerous female assassin in the Milky Way galaxy. She is also great with bladed weapons and one of the few here that is meta-human in strength and speed.

She is also a lovely shade of sea foam.

Taking on small army including tanks - http://imageshack.us/a/img224/7084/army4cl4.jpg

Wolverine says her healing factor (after he clawed her in the stomach) is as good as his - http://imageshack.us/a/img241/1937/possiblehealingfactor5zk0.jpg

Powerful enough to one-shot Rage (durable 75+ tonner) - http://imageshack.us/a/img224/6626/rageoneshotcm0.jpg

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#12  Edited By jobbernos

wonder woman solos.

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#13  Edited By Pokeysteve

@Evil Incarnate said:

@Pokeysteve said:

@Evil Incarnate said:

@Pokeysteve said:

Can anyone here beat Cassandra Cain?........

That is probably the sexiest bracket I've ever seen. I don't mean the combatants but the actual bracket itself lol. Nice work.

Mantis, Gamora, Elektra...

I don't know who Mantis or Gamora are. What puts Elektra above Cass?

Mantis is like a female Karate Kid. I don't think Elektra is leaps above Cass, but I can see a battle between them going either way.

After looking up both of them and rereading the OP to see that they keep their strength, me thinks Gamora should win in a massive stomp.

@jobbernos said:

wonder woman solos.

.....Can't tell if you're kidding or didn't even read the first post lol

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#14  Edited By owie  Moderator
@queenfrost_: Thanks for the really detailed post.  Looks like we disagree on almost every fight  :)  But I think you make a lot of good points.  Good to see someone else give props to Red Sonja, I wasn't sure if she would get ignored here.
 
@Floopay said:

Awwwww, my favorites aren't in here :(

Laura Kinney or Jessica Drews were going to be my picks.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay


They'll both be in the next bracket round, which should be up within the week.  It will deal with low-to-mid super-powered women fighters.  Stay tuned...!
 
@robertloucksjr
@Pokeysteve
Ah hell I didn't realize that Gamora had been enhanced.  I'll edit the OP to make this old-school, pre-enhancement Gamora.
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#15  Edited By Killemall

@Pokeysteve said:

I don't know who Mantis or Gamora are. What puts Elektra above Cass?

Elektra is by no means above Cassy, like at all. Cassy has better reaction feat, i mean much better reaction feats, skills feats and she's all around top fighter. Anna Kravinoff, is the biggest problem, but the OP says powers are taken away, does that take away Anna's physical stats too? She's a 20 tonner based on bio and she above Peter is most aspect, same with Gamora her stats are amped up.

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#16  Edited By Pokeysteve

@Killemall said:

@Pokeysteve said:

I don't know who Mantis or Gamora are. What puts Elektra above Cass?

Elektra is by no means above Cassy, like at all. Cassy has better reaction feat, i mean much better reaction feats, skills feats and she's all around top fighter. Anna Kravinoff, is the biggest problem, but the OP says powers are taken away, does that take away Anna's physical stats too? She's a 20 tonner based on bio and she above Peter is most aspect, same with Gamora her stats are amped up.

I didn't think Elektra was above Cass at all lol not for a second.

That's kind of what I'm thinking. Strength is a big factor in a fight no matter how skilled you are. If Gamora's strength is reduced than the other fighters with above peak human strength should be reduced too. Superhuman strength is a power any way you look at it.

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#17  Edited By ThanoStomp

I'd have to say Gamora takes this, but then she's not really street level.

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#18  Edited By sandiego008

i want to do this bracket so bad ... just working 70+ hour weeks and the research time on all of them will take awhile. tagging this to get back to it.

Didnt read your entire breakdown just ending ... and yea I see gamora or mantis winning it all even w/o powers but i'll save that until i break it down.

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#19  Edited By owie  Moderator

@Killemall said:

Anna Kravinoff, is the biggest problem, but the OP says powers are taken away, does that take away Anna's physical stats too? She's a 20 tonner based on bio and she above Peter is most aspect, same with Gamora her stats are amped up.

@Pokeysteve said:

That's kind of what I'm thinking. Strength is a big factor in a fight no matter how skilled you are. If Gamora's strength is reduced than the other fighters with above peak human strength should be reduced too. Superhuman strength is a power any way you look at it.

Kraven has traditionally been listed as a 2 tonner, despite often being colloquially described as being at Spidey's strength level. He's more "strong as a gorilla" than the kind of strength you see from Spidey--I've never seen him lift a car, for instance. So I'm assuming Ana is the same. Most of the descriptions I read of her say she is "superhumanly strong to an unknown level." She is also superhumanly agile too, but again not really at Spidey level, probably more like Vermin I think. She's also something like 12 years old. I'd like to think that those stats aren't beyond the ability of many of those in this bracket to take on. The peak human characters are all still peak human (Shuri, Red Sonja, Mockingbird) here. Misty's arm is bionic and is rated around a couple tons, but the rest of her body isn't bionic so she can't really use it for lifting, just punching. I changed the OP to put Gamora back to her original non-amped form.

While super-strength is a factor, on the other hand there are multiple characters here who can take on people at these levels of strength. For instance Mantis took on Karnak pretty effectively, who's obviously an excellent fighter, plus his weakness-finding power, plus he's a couple-tonner. (scans here) Mantis has also physically done a pretty good job against people like Thor, for that matter!

@sandiego008 said:

i want to do this bracket so bad ... just working 70+ hour weeks and the research time on all of them will take awhile. tagging this to get back to it.

Didnt read your entire breakdown just ending ... and yea I see gamora or mantis winning it all even w/o powers but i'll save that until i break it down.

No problem man, it'll still be here!

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#20  Edited By Pokeysteve

@Owie said:

@Pokeysteve said:

That's kind of what I'm thinking. Strength is a big factor in a fight no matter how skilled you are. If Gamora's strength is reduced than the other fighters with above peak human strength should be reduced too. Superhuman strength is a power any way you look at it.

Kraven has traditionally been listed as a 2 tonner, despite often being colloquially described as being at Spidey's strength level. He's more "strong as a gorilla" than the kind of strength you see from Spidey--I've never seen him lift a car, for instance. So I'm assuming Ana is the same. Most of the descriptions I read of her say she is "superhumanly strong to an unknown level." She is also superhumanly agile too, but again not really at Spidey level, probably more like Vermin I think. She's also something like 12 years old. I'd like to think that those stats aren't beyond the ability of many of those in this bracket to take on. The peak human characters are all still peak human (Shuri, Red Sonja, Mockingbird) here. Misty's arm is bionic and is rated around a couple tons, but the rest of her body isn't bionic so she can't really use it for lifting, just punching. I changed the OP to put Gamora back to her original non-amped form.

While super-strength is a factor, on the other hand there are multiple characters here who can take on people at these levels of strength. For instance Mantis took on Karnak pretty effectively, who's obviously an excellent fighter, plus his weakness-finding power, plus he's a couple-tonner. (scans here) Mantis has also physically done a pretty good job against people like Thor, for that matter!

A character that "physically did a good job against people like Thor" is in with these street levelers. There is just something wrong with that.

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#21  Edited By Killemall

@Pokeysteve: @Owie: I think the 2 tonner tag on Anna would be very unfair given what she did to Vermin, Spiderman and Vin with MGH in Kraven's first hunt. Spiderman tied her up in his webbing, even claimed only someone with superstrength can break free, given this was much thicker webbing, and similar webbing has held cars and trucks, yet Anna breaks its effortlessly.

And the comparison with Vermin sounds odd given the fact that same series she beat Vermin rather handily to a point he was bleeding and ran away.

So if she's not nerfed out i would say Anna takes most of them here with relative ease, apart from Mantis and Gamora.

Lastly, Mantis actually got a lucky shot on distracted Thor, its not like she fought him in a straight up fight. That why i think showing only one panel as opposed to the whole fight or at least the complete page can be misleading.

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#22  Edited By Pokeysteve

@Killemall: I think the ones with superhuman strength and durability should be reduced to peak human at the most.

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#23  Edited By owie  Moderator

@Killemall said:

@Pokeysteve: @Owie: I think the 2 tonner tag on Anna would be very unfair given what she did to Vermin, Spiderman and Vin with MGH in Kraven's first hunt. Spiderman tied her up in his webbing, even claimed only someone with superstrength can break free, given this was much thicker webbing, and similar webbing has held cars and trucks, yet Anna breaks its effortlessly.

And the comparison with Vermin sounds odd given the fact that same series she beat Vermin rather handily to a point he was bleeding and ran away.

So if she's not nerfed out i would say Anna takes most of them here with relative ease, apart from Mantis and Gamora.

Lastly, Mantis actually got a lucky shot on distracted Thor, its not like she fought him in a straight up fight. That why i think showing only one panel as opposed to the whole fight or at least the complete page can be misleading.

bold--Granted. But if you go to that link I showed for Karnak, there's a whole fight there where she takes on all the West Coast Avengers, including Wonder Man--although he does grab her in the end and that stops the fight.

Your webbing point makes sense. On the other hand I guess I just don't see Vermin as being the toughest opponent. I think a lot of the people here could take him honestly.

All I was trying to say is that super strength isn't automatically a deciding factor. I think skill is a bigger factor (although the Mantis/West Coast Avengers fight can be seen both ways). Spider-man often has a hard time against fairly normal humans like Daredevil, Kingpin, the original powerless Tombstone, Iron Fist, Wolverine (obviously he has some advantages over normal humans), etc., because he isn't an incredibly skilled fighter (or at least wasn't pre-Spidey-fu). Or, to go the opposite direction, we see Spidey beat folks like Rhino despite a huge disadvantage in strength because he's a smarter fighter. Ana is pretty skilled, but I would say less-so than a lot of the women in the upper-left side of the grid.

but,...

@Pokeysteve said:

@Killemall: I think the ones with superhuman strength and durability should be reduced to peak human at the most.

...if you want, please feel free to figure out the bracket with her at peak human rather than super-human strength. I was originally going to have this bracket go up to a couple tons, and then cut most of them and put them in the next bracket, so for symmetry's sake making her peak human is fine with me.

As regards whether Mantis is street level, it depends on how you define street level. I'm aware of at least 3 definitions people use:

1: people who literally fight in city streets on Earth fighting muggers and whatnot

2: people who fall below a certain level of strength and speed, usually defined as Spider-Man or below

3: people whose total effectiveness (power PLUS skills) falls below a certain level--so for instance Mantis doesn't have super powers that really effect her H2H skills, but her skills are so high she can fight extremely powerful characters, so under this definition she would not be streetlevel. Same with, say, Gamora or Karate Kid.

When I think of the battle forums, I tend to think in terms of #2. When am just thinking of comic characters randomly outside of that context, I think more in terms of #1. So to me, Gamora, Mantis, Karate Kid are all streetlevel when it comes to the battle forums, but they are not streetlevel in terms of how they think of themselves.

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#24  Edited By Pokeysteve

@Owie said:

@Pokeysteve said:

@Killemall: I think the ones with superhuman strength and durability should be reduced to peak human at the most.

...if you want, please feel free to figure out the bracket with her at peak human rather than super-human strength. I was originally going to have this bracket go up to a couple tons, and then cut most of them and put them in the next bracket, so for symmetry's sake making her peak human is fine with me.

As regards whether Mantis is street level, it depends on how you define street level. I'm aware of at least 3 definitions people use:

1: people who literally fight in city streets on Earth fighting muggers and whatnot

2: people who fall below a certain level of strength and speed, usually defined as Spider-Man or below

3: people whose total effectiveness (power PLUS skills) falls below a certain level--so for instance Mantis doesn't have super powers that really effect her H2H skills, but her skills are so high she can fight extremely powerful characters, so under this definition she would not be streetlevel. Same with, say, Gamora or Karate Kid.

When I think of the battle forums, I tend to think in terms of #2. When am just thinking of comic characters randomly outside of that context, I think more in terms of #1. So to me, Gamora, Mantis, Karate Kid are all streetlevel when it comes to the battle forums, but they are not streetlevel in terms of how they think of themselves.

I think of number 2 also. Karate Kid and anyone like him I don't take seriously. People legitimately put him up against Superman level characters and think he can win. If Mantis is like that than she shouldn't be here. Any one in the 2 ton+ strength range and has the fighting skills needed to even be here, probably can't be beat. Like Gamora.

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#25  Edited By Strafe Prower

I'll be happy to answer questions about some of these, but I don't know enough about half of them to comment on the whole tourney.

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#26  Edited By owie  Moderator
@Strafe Prower said:

I'll be happy to answer questions about some of these, but I don't know enough about half of them to comment on the whole tourney.

Feel free to do the brackets giving an automatic loss to the characters you don't know (or, to put it another way, give the characters you do know a "bye" if they go up against someone you don't know).
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#27  Edited By robertloucksjr

@Killemall said:

@Pokeysteve said:

I don't know who Mantis or Gamora are. What puts Elektra above Cass?

Elektra is by no means above Cassy, like at all. Cassy has better reaction feat, i mean much better reaction feats, skills feats and she's all around top fighter. Anna Kravinoff, is the biggest problem, but the OP says powers are taken away, does that take away Anna's physical stats too? She's a 20 tonner based on bio and she above Peter is most aspect, same with Gamora her stats are amped up.

Electra now has limited TK/TP and can block assault rifle bursts with her Sais. She even has weak version of Black Canary's cry. She has been amped somewhat.

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#28  Edited By Pokeysteve

@robertloucksjr said:

@Killemall said:

@Pokeysteve said:

I don't know who Mantis or Gamora are. What puts Elektra above Cass?

Elektra is by no means above Cassy, like at all. Cassy has better reaction feat, i mean much better reaction feats, skills feats and she's all around top fighter. Anna Kravinoff, is the biggest problem, but the OP says powers are taken away, does that take away Anna's physical stats too? She's a 20 tonner based on bio and she above Peter is most aspect, same with Gamora her stats are amped up.

Electra now has limited TK/TP and can block assault rifle bursts with her Sais. She even has weak version of Black Canary's cry. She has been amped somewhat.

We were talking straight Hand to Hand. No extra abilities.

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#29  Edited By robertloucksjr

@Pokeysteve said:

@robertloucksjr said:

@Killemall said:

@Pokeysteve said:

I don't know who Mantis or Gamora are. What puts Elektra above Cass?

Elektra is by no means above Cassy, like at all. Cassy has better reaction feat, i mean much better reaction feats, skills feats and she's all around top fighter. Anna Kravinoff, is the biggest problem, but the OP says powers are taken away, does that take away Anna's physical stats too? She's a 20 tonner based on bio and she above Peter is most aspect, same with Gamora her stats are amped up.

Electra now has limited TK/TP and can block assault rifle bursts with her Sais. She even has weak version of Black Canary's cry. She has been amped somewhat.

We were talking straight Hand to Hand. No extra abilities.

I know, but her Sais blocking machine gun fire while in midair feat stands.

http://s593.beta.photobucket.com/user/elektrarespectthread/media/Speed/Elektra_Speed_v2_03_09.jpg.html

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#30  Edited By Pokeysteve

@robertloucksjr: Still don't think she beats Cass.

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#31  Edited By owie  Moderator

@robertloucksjr said:

I know, but her Sais blocking machine gun fire while in midair feat stands.

http://s593.beta.photobucket.com/user/elektrarespectthread/media/Speed/Elektra_Speed_v2_03_09.jpg.html

I think Elektra goes down in the second round against Shiva or Gamora, but I do think she gets underestimated on these boards a lot. The machine gun bullet blocking feat is good. In addition to her classic fights with Daredevil, I also like some of the ones below, in which she shows: (1) the ability to bypass DD's radar sense, showing stealth and skill (2) a fight with Wolverine where he's hard pressed to deal with her speed, and in which she successfully uses nerve-style strikes to temporarily incapacitate him twice, (3) a scene where she has the skill to cut a guy's limbs off but still keep him standing up until he's moved, (4) another scene where she has the speed and skill to take the Punisher's gun away from him without him even realizing it, (5) another scene where she shows the crazy skill to cut the ribbon on another skilled ninja's headband during a jumping flip, without cutting the other woman, and (5) finally she is able to penetrate Red-She-Hulk with a sai (which may be partially PIS but I think is arguably not; in the same way real high-level sword fighters can cut down full-grown trees in one stroke, she could potentially do the same even given Red She Hulk's durability).

This is mostly from her respect thread on KMC, which is solid. Anyway, I think she's got a lot of speed and skill. Enough for Cass? Maybe not. But it would be a good fight.

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#32  Edited By owie  Moderator

Bumparoo.
 
Any other takers?  Try to focus on the specific battles in the brackets, rather than abstract match-ups between characters that may never meet up the way the bracket is set up.  But, if you don't know a character, just give them an auto loss, and move the characters you do know up a notch in the brackets.