So, you are using Cornell's Wolverine. The team stomps.
In round one it says wolverine still has his healing factor, and in round two it says he isn't fighting like a wuss. It doesn't sound like its Cornelleverine.
Wolverine's handled multiple opponents before. He's beaten Sabretooth, Daken, Lady Deathstrike, New Silver Samurai, etc. all at the same time in a small room under Jason Aaron. Rick Remender had him beat Omega Red, Omega White, and Skinless Man during Uncanny X-Force. He's managed to simultaneously deal with, and eventually get the better of Nuke and Captain America during Origins while dealing with exhaustion from multiple days of fighting without rest and working with a healing factor that wasn't actively healing his combat injuries.
Wolverine's every bit as skilled as the team(Katana doesn't even have skill feats on par with his to begin with), can soak large amounts of damage from them, and one hit will end either member of the team, and they will be hit. It's not like the team has fabulous team work either.
@wolverine08: I know Wolverine can take multiple opponents, I just think THESE opponents specifically will prove too much for him.
Wolverine is NOT as skilled as the Team IMO, he's a notch below.
He might be above Katana because of her lack of showings, and he might be ALMOST up there with Batman, but combined he definitely isn't their equal.
And in my opinion both Bats and Katana have ways to put him down.
Katana has her mystical sword, which has magical properties and can apparently summon the people she's killed (someone showed me a scan recently, I'll try to find it). Not to mention it's been stated multiple times that her sword is indestructible because of its mystical properties. So it should be able to do some damage to Logan, it is magical after all.
I know Wolverine can take multiple opponents, I just think THESE opponents specifically will prove too much for him.
If he can take on multiple opponents whom are overall more potent than Batman and Katana like Omega Red(Whom has taken on teams of X-Men) and Sabretooth, etc. at the same time, there's no reason why he can't do so here.
He might be above Katana because of her lack of showings, and he might be ALMOST up there with Batman, but combined he definitely isn't their equal.
Unless you can bring showings that suggest otherwise, Wolverine's combined training history, technical feats, overall knowledge, and combat feats are substantially better than Katana's. Dealing with one top tier fighter in Batman and another fighter that isn't even comparable to him isn't out of Wolverine's capabilities
Katana has her mystical sword, which has magical properties and can apparently summon the people she's killed (someone showed me a scan recently, I'll try to find it). Not to mention it's been stated multiple times that her sword is indestructible because of its mystical properties. So it should be able to do some damage to Logan, it is magical after all.
Wolverine has disarmed opponents with bladed weapons before like Silver Samurai, Deadpool, Elektra, etc. and when one considers that all three of those people named have better skill feats than Katana, especially Silver Samurai and Deadpool, along with the fact that Katana doesn't really have physical feats of speed nor feats of skill with a blade comparable to Wolverine's(Breaking down the flaws in the form of a master swordsman like Silver Samurai) there's nothing stopping him from disarming her.
Oh, and Bats has pressure points.
Sans one instance under Garth Ennis(Who cared enough about consistency in that story to have Wolverine one shot Spider-Man) pressure points aren't a viable way of taking down Wolverine. Echo, someone whom has a skill copying ability similar to that of Taskmaster's great enough to let her slap around with Daredevil copied Matt's skill with pressure points and only made him mad, during the original Wolverine mini by Chris Claremont(In which Wolverine's healing factor was no where near as powerful as it was today) he resisted multiple death inducing pressure points from Shingen while on the verge of death from poison, a kick to a nerve cluster on his head from Psylocke didn't do anything more than a normal kick, etc.
The team on the other hand has no feats that suggest that they won't be one shotted by claw stabs that have three shotted Sabretooth(Someone whom heals faster than Wolverine) have dropped Grey Hulk when rammed through his chest, etc.
If he can take on multiple opponents whom are overall more potent than Batman and Katana like Omega Red(Whom has taken on teams of X-Men) and Sabretooth, etc. at the same time, there's no reason why he can't do so here.
I would disagree with this statement overall.
Considering that he is familiar with both Sabretooth and Omega Red, I wouldn't put it past him being able to predict what they're going to do, therefore making him more capable of taking them with multiple opponents.
And besides, Sabretooth has also managed to beat Wolverine solo, and Omega Red has consistently done the same.
In fact, IIRC there was a showing where he held his own against Wolverine and Colossus while he was in a weakened state with no armor.
Overall, his battles with them are very inconsistent, and therefore prove nothing IMO. Especially not against Bats and Katana.
Unless you can bring showings that suggest otherwise, Wolverine's combined training history, technical feats, overall knowledge, and combat feats are substantially better than Katana's. Dealing with one top tier fighter in Batman and another fighter that isn't even comparable to him isn't out of Wolverine's capabilities
As far as training history/overall knowledge, she was trained by Batman. Enough said there.
For combat feats, she fought pretty evenly with Deathstroke in Outsiders #19, stalemated Ra's Al Ghul in a sword fight in Outsiders #20, and IIRC had a fight with Shiva where she performed decently well (Shiva did win that fight though I think, by stabbing her with her own sword. Still though, she was doing well up to that point, just had one slip-up).
Plus she has a bunch of great feats where she takes out hordes of ninjas, metahumans, fodder, etc.
So while she may not be Wolverine, she definitely isn't COMPLETELY out of his league.
Wolverine has disarmed opponents with bladed weapons before like Silver Samurai, Deadpool, Elektra, etc. and when one considers that all three of those people named have better skill feats than Katana, especially Silver Samurai and Deadpool, along with the fact that Katana doesn't really have physical feats of speed nor feats of skill with a blade comparable to Wolverine's(Breaking down the flaws in the form of a master swordsman like Silver Samurai) there's nothing stopping him from disarming her.
Ra's is arguably a better swordsman than everyone listed (besides maybe Deadpool). And again, she stalemated him. I really don't see Wolverine disarming her.
Sans one instance under Garth Ennis(Who cared enough about consistency in that story to have Wolverine one shot Spider-Man) pressure points aren't a viable way of taking down Wolverine.
I'd disagree. The logic behind it is sound, Wolverine's muscles aren't adamantium coated. So I don't see why not.
Echo, someone whom has a skill copying ability similar to that of Taskmaster's great enough to let her slap around with Daredevil copied Matt's skill with pressure points and only made him mad,
Who's to say Echo copied the best pressure points? Copying Matt's skill doesn't mean she necessarily got his BEST pressure points.
during the original Wolverine mini by Chris Claremont(In which Wolverine's healing factor was no where near as powerful as it was today) he resisted multiple death inducing pressure points from Shingen while on the verge of death from poison, a kick to a nerve cluster on his head from Psylocke didn't do anything more than a normal kick, etc.
All fine and good, but Shingen doesn't have the technical skill of Matt, let alone Bruce.
And a kick to the head wouldn't work because his skull is protected by adamantium. His nerves, muscles, tendons, etc....are not.
The team on the other hand has no feats that suggest that they won't be one shotted by claw stabs that have three shotted Sabretooth(Someone whom heals faster than Wolverine) have dropped Grey Hulk when rammed through his chest, etc.
Katana may or may not (I honestly don't know, my knowledge on her is just ehhh at best). But Bruce definitely does.
Not to mention, Bruce won't be getting stabbed in the first place. He'll see those claws and avoid them at all cost.
Logan, on the other hand, will likely do what he normally does and tank hits like an idiot, which would allow Bruce to get him with one of his signature one-shot moves.
And that's without even bringing Katana and her magical sword into the picture!
Considering that he is familiar with both Sabretooth and Omega Red, I wouldn't put it past him being able to predict what they're going to do, therefore making him more capable of taking them with multiple opponents.
Unless you can show that this is indeed what allows Wolverine to fight them along with other opponents. This is just pure speculation on your part.
And besides, Sabretooth has also managed to beat Wolverine solo, and Omega Red has consistently done the same.
The vast majority of Victor's wins over Wolverine have occurred in flashbacks before Wolverine had either his adimantiuum skeleton or martial training. In the modern era, Victor has a massive losing streak against Wolverine with loses like getting obliterated by bone claw Wolverine while he had an adimantium skeleton and enhanced physicals, and his last 6/6 bouts with Wolverine have seen him suffer embarrassing loses. Omega Red on the other hand has picked up wins over Wolverine that are mostly contained to his first appearances and subsequently been given hell and picked up stalemates with Wolverine.
In fact, IIRC there was a showing where he held his own against Wolverine and Colossus while he was in a weakened state with no armor.
Doesn't exist.
Overall, his battles with them are very inconsistent, and therefore prove nothing IMO. Especially not against Bats and Katana.
No, his battles with them aren't consistent. Pointing towards one or two loses amid hordes of victories over them doesn't make it so, and when you consider that Omega Red alone is substantially more dangerous than Batman or Katana alone in a random, it does prove a lot. This doesn't take into account his other victories against multiples like Captain America/Nuke, Daken/New Silver Samurai/Lady Deathstrike/Sabretooth, etc.
For combat feats, she fought pretty evenly with Deathstroke in Outsiders #19, stalemated Ra's Al Ghul in a sword fight in Outsiders #20, and IIRC had a fight with Shiva where she performed decently well (Shiva did win that fight though I think, by stabbing her with her own sword. Still though, she was doing well up to that point, just had one slip-up).
Neither New 52 Deathstroke nor New 52 Lady Shiva have the feats to say they are skilled as Wolverine, if those are the versions you are using. You also forgot the context in that that fight only lasted two pages, Katana had back up, and Slade was in the middle of trying to complete a job when it all occurred.
Ra's is arguably a better swordsman than everyone listed (besides maybe Deadpool). And again, she stalemated him. I really don't see Wolverine disarming her.
Wouldn't really say Ra's is a better swordsman than Silver Samurai. He's a bonafide Iaijuitsu master whom has managed to train Wolverine in kenjutsu, and he's been disarmed by him and even had flaws in his form pointed out.
I'd disagree. The logic behind it is sound, Wolverine's muscles aren't adamantium coated. So I don't see why not.
The adimantium isn't what protects him from pressure points. The healing factor has been attributed to what deals with them.
Who's to say Echo copied the best pressure points? Copying Matt's skill doesn't mean she necessarily got his BEST pressure points.
Considering that the bits and pieces of Matt's style where enough to hang around with him, she was copying high end stuff.
All fine and good, but Shingen doesn't have the technical skill of Matt, let alone Bruce.
And a kick to the head wouldn't work because his skull is protected by adamantium. His nerves, muscles, tendons, etc....are not.
Pressure points meant to cause death are among the highest showings of technical precision because one needs a high degree of it to able to do something as intricate killing somebody, and when you consider that Wolverine's healing factor at this time(1982) was a joke compared to what it is now, and was being taxed further by poison, the showing is an excellent showing of pressure point resistance on Wolverine's part.
Wolverine's skin(Where nerve clusters are) aren't protected by adimantium, so they have no play there.
Katana may or may not (I honestly don't know, my knowledge on her is just ehhh at best). But Bruce definitely does.
Batman has showings of stabbing damage that will prove he can soak claw stabs that have greatly impaired/incapacitated people with healing factors strong enough to do things like complete atmosphere reentry and such? I'd like to see this.
Not to mention, Bruce won't be getting stabbed in the first place. He'll see those claws and avoid them at all cost.
Doesn't really matter if he wants to avoid. Wolverine can and most definitely will hit him eventually. Sure, Bruce can evade a few strikes but to say he won't be getting hit at all in the first place is most definitely stretching.
Logan, on the other hand, will likely do what he normally does and tank hits like an idiot,
Actually, Wolverine is morals off here, not in character, so this doesn't apply.
And that's without even bringing Katana and her magical sword into the picture!
A magical sword wielded by someone less skilled than Wolverine with the possibility of disarming looming.
Unless you can show that this is indeed what allows Wolverine to fight them along with other opponents. This is just pure speculation on your part.
Lol, it's pretty solid speculation. It's not like I'm really shooting wayyyy left field here.
Battling your opponent a large number of times allows you to become familiar with them. It's not rocket science, it's a common thing in Comics and on these forums.
The vast majority of Victor's wins over Wolverine have occurred in flashbacks before Wolverine had either his adimantiuum skeleton or martial training. In the modern era, Victor has a massive losing streak against Wolverine with loses like getting obliterated by bone claw Wolverine while he had an adimantium skeleton and enhanced physicals, and his last 6/6 bouts with Wolverine have seen him suffer embarrassing loses. Omega Red on the other hand has picked up wins over Wolverine that are mostly contained to his first appearances and subsequently been given hell and picked up stalemates with Wolverine.
A win is a win my friend.
Victor has shown that he CAN beat Logan, and that the opposite is true as well. So while on any occasion it's likely that Wolverine will beat Sabretooth, it's also entirely possible that Sabretooth beats Wolverine. It really all depends on what plot wants.
Omega Red, on the other hand, has beaten Wolverine more times than Wolverine has beaten him. I think. I THINK. Don't hold me to that, but from the encounters I remember that's the case.
Doesn't exist.
Are you sure about that? Coulda sworn...
Eh. Either way, Omega has consistently shown to be Wolverines superior, or at the very least equal. The fact that Wolverine was able to take them both on isn't very consistent IMO.
No, his battles with them aren't consistent.
I concur! Thanks for agreeing with me.
Pointing towards one or two loses amid hordes of victories over them doesn't make it so,
Hordes of victories? C'mon now. Aren't you being just a wee-bit generous there?
I mean, with Sabretooth, sure. I guess you could say that.
But he really doesn't have "hordes" of victories over Omega.
and when you consider that Omega Red alone is substantially more dangerous than Batman or Katana alone in a random,
Define "dangerous." Stronger? Sure. But more dangerous? I wouldn't say so.
it does prove a lot. This doesn't take into account his other victories against multiples like Captain America/Nuke, Daken/New Silver Samurai/Lady Deathstrike/Sabretooth, etc.
All valid feats. But nothing that Bruce hasn't seen before.
Neither New 52 Deathstroke nor New 52 Lady Shiva have the feats to say they are skilled as Wolverine, if those are the versions you are using.
Fairly certain that was Pre52.
Wouldn't really say Ra's is a better swordsman than Silver Samurai. He's a bonafide Iaijuitsu master whom has managed to train Wolverine in kenjutsu, and he's been disarmed by him and even had flaws in his form pointed out.
Not a very good teacher if your student is able to find flaws with your form.
The adimantium isn't what protects him from pressure points. The healing factor has been attributed to what deals with them.
May I see proof of this, sir? If you don't mind!
Considering that the bits and pieces of Matt's style where enough to hang around with him, she was copying high end stuff.
High end stuff, yeah, but not necessarily any one-shot moves.
Pressure points meant to cause death are among the highest showings of technical precision because one needs a high degree of it to able to do something as intricate killing somebody, and when you consider that Wolverine's healing factor at this time(1982) was a joke compared to what it is now, and was being taxed further by poison, the showing is an excellent showing of pressure point resistance on Wolverine's part.
Or it's an excellent showing of the fact that Shingen is basically featless, and therefore holds no real weight here.
Plussss, I'm fairly certain that Wolverine knew that Shingen could potentially kill him if he struck the right spot with his pressure points. That's why Wolverine resorted to using his claws....
Wolverine's skin(Where nerve clusters are) aren't protected by adimantium, so they have no play there.
Valid point! But at the same time, what technical knowledge does Psylocke have as far as pressure points go? And even if she does, you can't really have pinpoint accuracy whilst using your foot.
Batman has showings of stabbing damage that will prove he can soak claw stabs that have greatly impaired/incapacitated people with healing factors strong enough to do things like complete atmosphere reentry and such? I'd like to see this.
Well, first off I'd like to point out that a stab wound is a stab wound. It doesn't matter WHAT stabs you, it only matters how big the stab wound IS and how deep it goes.
So, now that we got that out of the way...
First off, this happens:
Batman gets freaking stabbed right in the guts. Notice how the sword goes straight through, and how deep the wound is!
I'd like to point out that prior to this, Batman was ambushed by the Court of Owls, and imprisoned. He stayed there for more than a week, was tortured psychologically by the Court, forced to wade multiple times through the labyrinth while being chased by the Talon, hallucinating because the only source of water is drugged, and THEN stabbed through the gut.
Then, he was beat down by Talon:
Gallery
Beaten horribly by Talon until the Court of Owls come to finish the job.
And after ALL that punishment (which included a wicked stab wound) Batman was able to fend off the Court, soundly defeat Talon and make his escape (withstanding an explosion he himself causes, in the process).
Gallery
So yes. He can take the punishment of a couple claw stabs, IF Wolverine manages to get any that is.
Doesn't really matter if he wants to avoid. Wolverine can and most definitely will hit him eventually. Sure, Bruce can evade a few strikes but to say he won't be getting hit at all in the first place is most definitely stretching.
Even if he hits, which Bruce will actively be avoiding of course, Bruce can just block the claws with his gauntlets. Much like he does against enemies with swords.
Actually, Wolverine is morals off here, not in character, so this doesn't apply.
Morals have nothing to do with him tanking blows. That's just his character. Morals off, I expect him to tank even MORE, it's just now he'll do it while going for the kill.
A magical sword wielded by someone less skilled than Wolverine with the possibility of disarming looming.
Batman picks up the sword, now its a magical sword wielded by someone more skilled than Wolverine. Good plan!
Here is the fight against deathstroke and katana. Deathstroke was fighting an entire team and more focused on his job...His encounter with katana only lasted 2 pages, she did show some good stealth:
@wolverine08: Mentally off like berserk kind of crazy? Or just different in personality wise? I know a decent amount of Wolverine, but thought I should ask you for good info. Halo is more my strong suite
@wolverine08: Mentally off like berserk kind of crazy? Or just different in personality wise? I know a decent amount of Wolverine, but thought I should ask you for good info. Halo is more my strong suite
He's been mentally off in that he's forgotten his martial skill and has been hesitant while approaching combat. Horribly written when you consider that he has numerous feats of being able to fight without the healing factor as a back up.
The same problem exists here as it does in every Batman/Wolverine Fight...in a random encounter...Bruce doesn't have what it takes to put down Logan. Adding Katana doesn't change anything because she also doesn't have what it takes.
Batman or Kitana by themselves could potentially beat him if not then they give him a huge run for his money. Both of them is to much for Wolverine by himself.
@testament: first of all why did you bump this just to say such a useless statement to me? And yes he is, magnets. He can use magnets.
Ok chill dude. You don't have to be so hostile. It's only a two month old thread. I can understand you getting mad if I bumped a 3 year thread but it's only 2 months. Alright as for the magnets argument, the OP states the team has standard equipment, I don't think magnets are apart of Batman's standard equipment.
@testament: He's used them before in battle against a small group of thugs. I am not sure if it's really possible to prove if its in his standard gear or not though
A morals of batman could take wolverine any day of the week imo. He carries some nasty stuff. If he has basic knowledge of wolverine, he'll bleed him out like x23 did then ko him. Explosive, shock, and acid batarangs and to the fun, as well as anesthetic gas. Katana serves as a nice distraction though.
@testament: He's used them before in battle against a small group of thugs. I am not sure if it's really possible to prove if its in his standard gear or not though
Wasn't he prepped for them though? I'll have to find that scan
A morals of batman could take wolverine any day of the week imo. He carries some nasty stuff. If he has basic knowledge of wolverine, he'll bleed him out like x23 did then ko him. Explosive, shock, and acid batarangs and to the fun, as well as anesthetic gas. Katana serves as a nice distraction though.
A morals off Batman would still need prep any day of the week. Even Basic knowledge isn't enough considering he's only got standard equipment. Also you're forgetting Wolverine's morals are off as well and that may not seem like much but believe me it is. Wolverine is a man of restraint, always trying to keep the animal inside, always ignoring his instinct to kill but when he gives into the animal, he's able to take on entire Alien and Demonic armies, beat the Grey Hulk so bad that he almost killed him, incapacitate his own Demonic Martial Arts master. I'm willing to bet Wolverine's more scarier with his morals off. P.S anesthetic gas is absolutely nothing to him, you're severely underestimating his healing factor.
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