Wolverine Vs Grey Hulk

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Boneapart

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#51  Edited By Boneapart
@erik:@erik said:
" @napoleon said:

" @erik:  hulk 181 hulk 340 wolverine 8 marvel comics presents 55 marvel comics presents 60-61 marvel fanfare vol 2 issue 2 hulk 454 wolverine145 wolverine /hulk 1 wolverine/ hulk 2 wolverine /hulk six hours 2 wolverine /hulk six hours 4 punisher 37 WWH-X-men 2 WWH -X-men 3 "

  • Wolverine's first appearance was incredibly underwritten. He did not even have any powers in that issue and his claws were unable to cut Hulk.
  • Wolverine won that fight. He was ripping Hulk to pieces until Hulk stopped fighting back. The fight was over. Hulk just healed, got up and tried to start something again and the second fight was interrupted.
  • Wolverine 145. Wolverine as Death. He also won this fight. Hulk was no longer resisting and Death was about to make the kill blow but Wolverine resisted the conditioning. Hulk was then given enough time to recover, knock Wolverine away and escape. Wolverine won that fight.
  • The rest as stalemates except WWHulk which you listed as two separate fights. It was not. WWHulk did beat Wolverine in this one.
"
you most likely know a hell of alot about them, but my opintion is still the same. the day wolverine kills hulk hell is going to frezze over first
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Erik

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#52  Edited By Erik
@napoleon: 
Wolverine will never kill Hulk just like Hulk will never kill Wolverine. They are part of Marvel's golden goose.
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#53  Edited By Boneapart
@erik: deffinatly.
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iLLituracy

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#54  Edited By iLLituracy
@erik said:
" @napoleon said:

" @erik:  hulk 181 hulk 340 wolverine 8 marvel comics presents 55 marvel comics presents 60-61 marvel fanfare vol 2 issue 2 hulk 454 wolverine145 wolverine /hulk 1 wolverine/ hulk 2 wolverine /hulk six hours 2 wolverine /hulk six hours 4 punisher 37 WWH-X-men 2 WWH -X-men 3 "

  • Wolverine's first appearance was incredibly underwritten. He did not even have any powers in that issue and his claws were unable to cut Hulk.
  • Wolverine won that fight. He was ripping Hulk to pieces until Hulk stopped fighting back. The fight was over. Hulk just healed, got up and tried to start something again and the second fight was interrupted.
  • Wolverine 145. Wolverine as Death. He also won this fight. Hulk was no longer resisting and Death was about to make the kill blow but Wolverine resisted the conditioning. Hulk was then given enough time to recover, knock Wolverine away and escape. Wolverine won that fight.
  • The rest as stalemates except WWHulk which you listed as two separate fights. It was not. WWHulk did beat Wolverine in this one.
"
Him not being able to cut Hulk was retconned in the issue where he fight Grey Hulk. He mentions that he thought Hulk's skin was impenetrable and comes to realize that it isn't that it was impenetrable but that he was healing almost instantaneously before any visible injury could form.  
 
I don't know which fight you're referring to in the second one, if we're talking about Wolverine's first fight against Grey Hulk in Hulk 340 then it was rather inconclusive, IMO. Wolverine stabbed through Hulk and Hulk got back up in a matter of panels and was healed. It was pretty much one fight that wound up interrupted though Wolverine did have the edge most of the fight due to his agility.  
 
I don't remember Wolverine winning most of his fight against Hulk as Death. He got a few licks in but Hulk was throwing him around the whole fight. Whilst he was doing so Wolverine held his own, but nothing suggested that Wolverine was going to win or kill Hulk with the blow he was going to deliver. In fact, due to Hulk's healing and previously inflicted wounds and factoring in his rising anger most blows that Wolverine could have inflicted would probably have healed over.  
 
I'm not sure if they're stalemates. Moreso inconclusive. Going based on that list--
 
Hulk 181 - The Hulk ultimately won, Wolverine tried to move out of the way of Hulk's fist, but got KOed. 
 
Hulk 340 - Wolverine had the edge due to agility, but he couldn't land any lasting damage. He had Fixit down for a couple panels early in the fight. 
 
Wolverine 8 - They didn't fight, they teamed up in Madripoor, Hulk hit him once when Wolverine [going by Patch in this issue], kept playing pranks on him. 
 
Marvel Comics Presents 55 - Wolverine attacked Fixit in a cave. Fixit didn't want to fight, so he smacked Wolverine around, they both fell over a waterfall.  
 
Marvel Comics Presents 60-61 - If memory serves, they didn't fight in 60. The Wolverine he fought in 60 was Mimic. There was no real fight in 61, either, I'll have to look back at those issues.  
 
Marvel Fanfare 2 - There's a scan from this issue that uneducated people on the situation spam where bone claw Logan lays into Hulk who is trying to talk him down and leaves him in a bloody heap. What they don't show is that he gets back up on the next page and puts the brakes to both Wendigo and Wolverine. There was heavy PIS seeing as how Wolverine's bone claws shouldn't be able to penetrate Hulk's flesh [which happens in Hulk 454].  
 
Hulk 454 - Wolverine tries to slice Hulk's neck open. Hulk thinks his neck is cut, then looks and notices that it isn't. Funny scene. He grabs Logan and tries to choke him out but a T-Rex interrupts. 
 
I personally don't have any of the Hulk/Wolverine mini-series, so I can't really give my input on those, but I've seen sources that say Wolverine pretty much got work for the majority of those issues. 
 
Punisher 37 - Wolverine gets smacked into the distance by Hulk. What we on ComicVine call BFR. 
 
WWH: X-Men - Wolverine gets worked. Thought it's really unfair to compare these issues to Grey Hulk/Fixit [I think it's unfair to compare his fights with Green Hulk, as well]. 
 
IMO, Hulk would take the strong majority. Even in his Grey incarnation his healing factor was too strong for Wolverine to do any lasting damage, the problem is that Grey Hulk has always had a problem with tagging Wolverine [a problem that even Green Hulk had]. But I believe in a conclusive fight, with Grey Hulk's strength, he would come out on top.
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#55  Edited By Erik
@iLLituracy: 
  • Where is this retcon?
  • Did you read Hulk 340? Hulk went down. He was done. Wolverine got up and was walking away and Hulk healed and tried to start the fight anew. That fight is clearly a Wolverine win. Just because Hulk survived the fight does not mean the fight was inconclusive.
  • Who cares how the fight was progressing? Wolverine is a great deal weaker than Hulk so of course Hulk was throwing him around. The point is that Wolverine still beat him despite being thrown around. Nothing alluded to the finishing blow being the killing blow except the narration......
  • I already addressed 181.
  • Except that he finished Hulk and was walking away when Hulk tried to start up again.
  • I did not even address #8.
  • Therefore #55 is a stalemate.
  • I also did not address #60-61.
  • There is enough evidence to say that Wolverine's claws can penetrate Hulk. Hulk gets cut and pierced all the time and Wolverine's bone claws have torn through various metals.
  • 454 is a stalemate.
  • Wolverine always gets thrown around against heavy hitters, that does not mean he is getting worked as it never has any lasting effects on him. 6 hours is no different.
  • Okay. I did say most were stalemates. Hulk getting a BFR in #37 would not discredit that.
  • I already said Wolverine lost the WWHulk encounter. I do not know why you felt the need to readdress it.
  • That is not true. Wolverine worked Grey Hulk in 340. He could have easily killed Hulk if he did not decide to walk away.
  • Characters with super strength have almost never been able to put Wolverine down. Wolverine is literally tailored to fight characters with super strength.
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Erik

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#56  Edited By Erik

Sorry, I meant Wolverine #145, not #150.

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#57  Edited By iLLituracy
@erik said:

" @iLLituracy: 

  • Where is this retcon?
In #340. Wolverine says that he thought Hulk's skin was impenetrable [during their first fight, back before his claws being Adamantium and being able to cut him was established]. Peter David was addressing why exactly he couldn't cut him during their first fight, the truth now was that he was cutting him and didn't realize it. 

         
No Caption Provided


    • Did you read Hulk 340? Hulk went down. He was done. Wolverine got up and was walking away and Hulk healed and tried to start the fight anew. That fight is clearly a Wolverine win. Just because Hulk survived the fight does not mean the fight was inconclusive.
    I have the issue right here. Hulk went down, yes. I'm not attributing the win to Wolverine due to the fact that Hulk went down, but how SOON Hulk got back up and how SOON it happened in their encounter. It literally happened a page or two into their fight. Hulk stabbed Wolverine, Wolverine started walking away and Hulk got back up, that's not really a win, especially when he couldn't really reproduce that supposed win the remainder of the issue. 


  • Who cares how the fight was progressing? Wolverine is a great deal weaker than Hulk so of course Hulk was throwing him around. The point is that Wolverine still beat him despite being thrown around. Nothing alluded to the finishing blow being the killing blow except the narration......

  • I think people should care how the fight was progressing, especially due to how it ended. You said Wolverine was ripping Hulk to pieces, but Hulk was equally laying into Wolverine if I recall.  
     
    Nothing in the narration alluded to the finishing blow, the narration was talking about the pain Hulk experienced when he was stabbed then it started describing Logan's hesitance. There was nothing in the narration that suggests that the blow could kill Hulk.
  • I already addressed 181.

  • Very well.
  • Except that he finished Hulk and was walking away when Hulk tried to start up again.

  • Hulk was far from finished, though. He fought out the rest of the fight. Matter of fact, the next page AFTER he gets up that wound where Wolverine drove basically both of his arms into Hulk and Hulk got up the wound is gone. 
  • I did not even address #8.

  • I was more or less addressing Napoleon's list of Hulk and Wolverine's fights.
  • Therefore #55 is a stalemate.

  • A stalemate is when two things, or in this case, people, are brought to a standstill. When two things are deadlocked and there's no sort of progression. That's not what happened. Hulk didn't want to fight, Wolverine tried to attack him, that's not a stalemate. That's barely a fight, I wouldn't have even bothered addressing it if Hulk didn't actually hit him once and toss him around once or twice.
  • I also did not address #60-61.

  • It was on the list.
  • There is enough evidence to say that Wolverine's claws can penetrate Hulk. Hulk gets cut and pierced all the time and Wolverine's bone claws have torn through various metals.

  • Hulk has taken strikes from harder without harm, I'm sure of it. 454 also establishes that Wolverine could and should not be able to cut him with his claws.
  • 454 is a stalemate.

  • Again, I disagree, both of them didn't go at it and get nowhere. Wolverine couldn't hurt Hulk in this instance and that's all that really happened. 
  • Wolverine always gets thrown around against heavy hitters, that does not mean he is getting worked as it never has any lasting effects on him. 6 hours is no different.

  • From the scans I saw where he was basically helpless against the Hulk, yes, I would say he was getting worked. 
  • Okay. I did say most were stalemates. Hulk getting a BFR in #37 would not discredit that.

  • I was going through all the listed issues. 
  • I already said Wolverine lost the WWHulk encounter. I do not know why you felt the need to readdress it.

  • I didn't readdress it. I said it was unfair to compare that fight, that was my point. World War Hulk is beyond Fixit by leaps and bounds. 
  • That is not true. Wolverine worked Grey Hulk in 340. He could have easily killed Hulk if he did not decide to walk away.

  • You're wrong in this instance. Wolverine TRIED to work Grey Hulk in 340 and yes, I agree, he had the edge for most of the fight. As for being able to EASILY KILL the Hulk and deciding not to? He was TRYING to most of the fight. In fact, that instance you're talking about where he stabbed Hulk through he thought he KILLED Hulk and walked away because he thought Hulk was dead. He spends most of the fight talking about how he's getting harder to hurt. 
  • Characters with super strength have almost never been able to put Wolverine down. Wolverine is literally tailored to fight characters with super strength. "
I won't disagree, but Hulk has put Wolverine down with his strength alone a number of times. The fact of the matter is this is Fixit, and all of Wolverine's fights with Fixit are inconclusive, not stalemates. They get interrupted or one party doesn't want to fight or continue. The most apparent of those fights was their first encounter in issue 340, where Wolverine, after Hulk got back up, was having trouble injuring and was losing his edge toward the end. 
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iLLituracy

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#58  Edited By iLLituracy

That totally didn't come out the way it was in the prompt...

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god_spawn

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#59  Edited By god_spawn  Moderator

i say give him the muramasa blade it might even it up
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iLLituracy

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#60  Edited By iLLituracy
@god_spawn said:
" i say give him the muramasa blade it might even it up "
He'd kill him with the Muramasa rather easily. 
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#61  Edited By Erik
  • Hmm.... I must have missed that part of his inner-monologue. Okay fine. Wolverine says that he was cutting without realizing it. Does that not sounds ridiculous for a man with enhanced senses to have missed such a thing? Also, Wolverine was reasoning, not stating facts.
 
I have the issue right here. Hulk went down, yes. I'm not attributing the win to Wolverine due to the fact that Hulk went down, but how SOON Hulk got back up and how SOON it happened in their encounter. It literally happened a page or two into their fight. Hulk stabbed Wolverine, Wolverine started walking away and Hulk got back up, that's not really a win, especially when he couldn't really reproduce that supposed win the remainder of the issue
  • That is the point. Hulk went down. Had Wolverine kept on going, there would have been nothing stopping him. Hulk was done at that moment. The only reason Hulk got up at all is because Wolverine stopped fighting. 
 
 I think people should care how the fight was progressing, especially due to how it ended. You said Wolverine was ripping Hulk to pieces, but Hulk was equally laying into Wolverine if I recall.  
  • No. You think just because Wolverine gets thrown around like he always does in nearly every battle against someone with superior strength, he is somehow losing? That is ridiculous. Wolverine always gets knocked around against an opponent with superior stats and most of the time, he clears wins. You are injecting irrelevant data.
 
 
Nothing in the narration alluded to the finishing blow, the narration was talking about the pain Hulk experienced when he was stabbed then it started describing Logan's hesitance. There was nothing in the narration that suggests that the blow could kill Hulk.
  • It specifically said that Hulk was not able to cope with the fury of Death. He was not even fighting back by the time it got to that panel. He was just getting cut. He was not doing anything until Wolverine held back that last attack. So I guess Hulk was just not in danger of death at all? He was just casually taking blow after blow? The only moment that Hulk was even able to react was when Wolverine hesitated. That was it. Had Wolverine not hesitated, Hulk would not have done a thing.

  • Hulk was far from finished, though. He fought out the rest of the fight. Matter of fact, the next page AFTER he gets up that wound where Wolverine drove basically both of his arms into Hulk and Hulk got up the wound is gone. 
  • Except for the part where he was finished. Just because he was allowed time to heal does not mean he did not lose that fight. If what you are saying is true, Deadpool is literally unbeatable, especially in battle threads. I even admitted that Hulk got up. I do not know why you try to debate that point. It is almost as if you are trying to discredit my argument WITH my argument. Hulk has a healing factor so of course the wound would heal. The point that you keep consciously overlooking is that Hulk was done until Wolverine got up and tried to leave.

  • I was more or less addressing Napoleon's list of Hulk and Wolverine's fights.
  • I see.

  • A stalemate is when two things, or in this case, people, are brought to a standstill. When two things are deadlocked and there's no sort of progression. That's not what happened. Hulk didn't want to fight, Wolverine tried to attack him, that's not a stalemate. That's barely a fight, I wouldn't have even bothered addressing it if Hulk didn't actually hit him once and toss him around once or twice.
  • Fine. They barely fought. Nitpick semantics if it pleases you so.

 Hulk has taken strikes from harder without harm, I'm sure of it. 454 also establishes that Wolverine could and should not be able to cut him with his claws.
  • Do not try to give me that. There are several occasions where Hulk is cut, stabbed or otherwise wounded from things far below adamantium. Things that Wolverine was still able to cut due to his bone density. Just because a Hulk writer did not know that about Wolverine does not mean that it should be labeled as fact.

  • Again, I disagree, both of them didn't go at it and get nowhere. Wolverine couldn't hurt Hulk in this instance and that's all that really happened. 
  • Again, writers screw things up sometimes by not knowing enough facts. They are called..... Plot holes. They happen. Something you should readily accept as something that happens. Hell you even countered me with information that rectified a previous plot hole.

  • From the scans I saw where he was basically helpless against the Hulk, yes, I would say he was getting worked. 
  • Wolverine always gets worked against foes with superior strength as I have said before. That does not mean he loses.

  • I didn't readdress it. I said it was unfair to compare that fight, that was my point. World War Hulk is beyond Fixit by leaps and bounds. 
  • Well, that is true.

  • You're wrong in this instance. Wolverine TRIED to work Grey Hulk in 340 and yes, I agree, he had the edge for most of the fight. As for being able to EASILY KILL the Hulk and deciding not to? He was TRYING to most of the fight. In fact, that instance you're talking about where he stabbed Hulk through he thought he KILLED Hulk and walked away because he thought Hulk was dead. He spends most of the fight talking about how he's getting harder to hurt.
 
  • I meant easily once Hulk had stopped fighting. If Wolverine had decided to continue, he would have easily killed Hulk because he already was doing just that.
 
I won't disagree, but Hulk has put Wolverine down with his strength alone a number of times. The fact of the matter is this is Fixit, and all of Wolverine's fights with Fixit are inconclusive, not stalemates. They get interrupted or one party doesn't want to fight or continue. The most apparent of those fights was their first encounter in issue 340, where Wolverine, after Hulk got back up, was having trouble injuring and was losing his edge toward the end. 
  • Just as Wolverine has shown that he could put Hulk down with his list of abilities a number of times.
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svtballa

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#62  Edited By svtballa

how about the 4 part series I think in alaska where hulk abosolutley tools wolvie???  he literaly rips him in half and throws his legs far away.  Wolvie has to use his sense of smell and claw back to his legs to put the back together??  I will come up with the issues when I get home.
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#63  Edited By Dark King

that is not even canon to 616 wolverine.. you are referring to the ultimate universe wolverine whose skeleton is able to be ripped apart which has bn tried to the 616 Wolvie by hulk, Ba'al and host of others and has always failed.
 
you are making a case with different characters and interchanging their feats and history to make a case...
 
i could just as easily use the What if? comic with Wolverine Killing Hulk in their 1st encounter by slitting his throat... its the same exact logic as yours.

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@iLLituracy said:

Hulk 181 - The Hulk ultimately won, Wolverine tried to move out of the way of Hulk's fist, but got KOed.

The events of the fight in Hulk 181 have been retconned. There is a retelling in Wolverine Origins 28. It's largely the same, Wolverine attacks the Hulk and Wendigo, teams up with Hulk to beat Wendigo and then attacks the Hulk... but the magic element isn't there, so the fight continues without Wolverine and the Hulk getting koed and chained up. Hulk decks Wolverine in the side of the face and knocks him flying. In the next panel Wolverine is pushing himself to his feet, but the military has arrived on the scene. They tell Wolverine to stand down, he says "I can take him," and then the soldiers finish off the Hulk. So in the most recent accounts, the fight was a stalemate.
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#65  Edited By iLLituracy
@erik said: 


"

  • Hmm.... I must have missed that part of his inner-monologue. Okay fine. Wolverine says that he was cutting without realizing it. Does that not sounds ridiculous for a man with enhanced senses to have missed such a thing? Also, Wolverine was reasoning, not stating facts.
As ridiculous as it sounds, it sounds equally as ridiculous for a man who has unbreakable claws to not not be able to break the Hulk's skin. Peter David was working with what he had and Wolverine had changed since his first appearance. He had to make it work somehow. This was how he saw it would work along with stating how fast Hulk's healing factor was at the time of their first encounter [or was at that very time during their second]. Whether it doesn't match up with Wolverine's senses is irrelevant, the first situation was retconned to have Wolverine cutting the Hulk. 


  • That is the point. Hulk went down. Had Wolverine kept on going, there would have been nothing stopping him. Hulk was done at that moment. The only reason Hulk got up at all is because Wolverine stopped fighting. 
You don't know that. This is speculation and speculation that is most likely wrong seeing how fast Hulk was healing the entire fight. One page of a halt isn't really a stop to fight, either.
  •  

    • No. You think just because Wolverine gets thrown around like he always does in nearly every battle against someone with superior strength, he is somehow losing? That is ridiculous. Wolverine always gets knocked around against an opponent with superior stats and most of the time, he clears wins. You are injecting irrelevant data.
What's irrelevant is to ignore it. So every fight that Wolverine is getting the snot knocked out of him is irrelevant? By those standards Wolverine never really loses. What's ridiculous is that you're choosing to ignore Wolverine getting pummeled on some pages while you're choosing to focus on the panels that Wolverine was laying into the Hulk and on top of that ignoring how fast the Hulk was healing from Wolverine's punishment.  
 
By that logic, Hulk can never really be on the winning end of a fight with Wolverine even if Hulk is pummeling the life out of Wolverine and Wolverine doesn't get a lick in. It's just bad logic.
 
FACT: Wolverine received an at the very least equal beating in this fight. What's irrelevant is how he fares against anyone else with superior stats. How he fares against other bricks doesn't matter because those other bricks are usually not as strong as the Hulk and don't have the Hulk's ability to heal from Wolverine's attacks.

     

    • It specifically said that Hulk was not able to cope with the fury of Death. He was not even fighting back by the time it got to that panel. He was just getting cut. He was not doing anything until Wolverine held back that last attack. So I guess Hulk was just not in danger of death at all? He was just casually taking blow after blow? The only moment that Hulk was even able to react was when Wolverine hesitated. That was it. Had Wolverine not hesitated, Hulk would not have done a thing.
    While I respect your opinion, I'm calling BS. 
     
    Hulk wasn't doing anything until Wolverine held back? He wasn't doing a thing? Hulk was LAYING INTO Death the whole fight. Matter of fact, nothing will convey this better than scans. 
     

    No Caption Provided


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    All of the pages where Hulk is laying into Wolverine, which is a good amount of pages compared to Wolverine's 2-3 pages where he was cutting into the Hulk. These scans are the majority of the fight save a good chunk of Wolverine's attacks [I'll post the whole fight, if you wish] and the last pages where Wolverine is laying into the Hulk and hesitates.
     
    According to you Hulk couldn't do a damn thing against Death, that is untrue. And like I said, there's nothing that remotely suggests that Hulk was about to die. It's possible I missed something, so feel free to point something out. The only thing that Hulk ever suggests is that Wolverine hurts him and inflicts pain, that's it. Wolverine hesitating isn't a sign that he was about to kill Hulk. I don't know where you got this from.
  •  

  • Except for the part where he was finished. Just because he was allowed time to heal does not mean he did not lose that fight. If what you are saying is true, Deadpool is literally unbeatable, especially in battle threads. I even admitted that Hulk got up. I do not know why you try to debate that point. It is almost as if you are trying to discredit my argument WITH my argument. Hulk has a healing factor so of course the wound would heal. The point that you keep consciously overlooking is that Hulk was done until Wolverine got up and tried to leave.
  • If he were finished the fight would not have continued. 
     
    What time was he given? Wolverine stabbed him, Hulk went down, Wolverine started walking away and Hulk stood back up. It's not as if an hour transpired. 
     
    You're clearly missing my point. I'm trying to discredit your point by saying that Hulk never really stopped fighting. Deadpool has been knocked out and killed, but he hasn't stood right back up on the next page. THAT is my point.  
  •  

  • Fine. They barely fought. Nitpick semantics if it pleases you so.
  • Call it nitpicking, but an inconclusive fight and a stalemate are two different things. On top of that, semantics is all we have men such as us who debate, for they can make all the difference.
  •  

    • Do not try to give me that. There are several occasions where Hulk is cut, stabbed or otherwise wounded from things far below adamantium. Things that Wolverine was still able to cut due to his bone density. Just because a Hulk writer did not know that about Wolverine does not mean that it should be labeled as fact.
  • I didn't say that adamantium was the only thing that could harm Hulk, so please don't make it out to be that way. And it depends on what you mean by far below. Also, there was two COMPLETELY different instances where Wolverine tried to cut him with bone claws and couldn't compared to that one in Marvel Fanfare. I don't know why you want to argue this, either, since he has adamantium in this fight. 


  • Again, writers screw things up sometimes by not knowing enough facts. They are called..... Plot holes. They happen. Something you should readily accept as something that happens. Hell you even countered me with information that rectified a previous plot hole.
  • See above.


  • Wolverine always gets worked against foes with superior strength as I have said before. That does not mean he loses.
  • And just because Hulk gets stabbed or Wolverine hesitates doesn't mean that he loses, either. 
  •  

    • I meant easily once Hulk had stopped fighting. If Wolverine had decided to continue, he would have easily killed Hulk because he already was doing just that.
Speculation. I would say you're wrong on the basis that he thought he had already killed Hulk and Hulk got back up in a matter of what seemed to be moments. 
 


  • Just as Wolverine has shown that he could put Hulk down with his list of abilities a number of times.
"
What number of times save that one time when he fought Fixit [in which Fixit got back up]? The majority of their fights, to my knowledge, end with either Hulk getting rid of Wolverine, someone interfering, or the two stopping on their own. 
 
@thegentlemanrogue said:
" @iLLituracy said:

Hulk 181 - The Hulk ultimately won, Wolverine tried to move out of the way of Hulk's fist, but got KOed.

The events of the fight in Hulk 181 have been retconned. There is a retelling in Wolverine Origins 28. It's largely the same, Wolverine attacks the Hulk and Wendigo, teams up with Hulk to beat Wendigo and then attacks the Hulk... but the magic element isn't there, so the fight continues without Wolverine and the Hulk getting koed and chained up. Hulk decks Wolverine in the side of the face and knocks him flying. In the next panel Wolverine is pushing himself to his feet, but the military has arrived on the scene. They tell Wolverine to stand down, he says "I can take him," and then the soldiers finish off the Hulk. So in the most recent accounts, the fight was a stalemate. "
I'll have to check it out, I must've missed that issue because I didn't enjoy Origins. I know Jeph Loeb did a retelling with Ed McGuinness that mirrored the Ultimate version of Wolverine Vs. Hulk, but I don't remember what issue it was, I feel like I should look it up, though.
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#66  Edited By Erik

 @iLLituracy:
As ridiculous as it sounds, it sounds equally as ridiculous for a man who has unbreakable claws to not not be able to break the Hulk's skin. Peter David was working with what he had and Wolverine had changed since his first appearance. He had to make it work somehow. This was how he saw it would work along with stating how fast Hulk's healing factor was at the time of their first encounter [or was at that very time during their second]. Whether it doesn't match up with Wolverine's senses is irrelevant, the first situation was retconned to have Wolverine cutting the Hulk.

  • Fair enough.
 
 You don't know that. This is speculation and speculation that is most likely wrong seeing how fast Hulk was healing the entire fight. One page of a halt isn't really a stop to fight, either.
  • I do know that because Hulk was done. There was no resistance at that point. None at all.
 
 What's irrelevant is to ignore it. So every fight that Wolverine is getting the snot knocked out of him is irrelevant? By those standards Wolverine never really loses. What's ridiculous is that you're choosing to ignore Wolverine getting pummeled on some pages while you're choosing to focus on the panels that Wolverine was laying into the Hulk and on top of that ignoring how fast the Hulk was healing from Wolverine's punishment.  
 
By that logic, Hulk can never really be on the winning end of a fight with Wolverine even if Hulk is pummeling the life out of Wolverine and Wolverine doesn't get a lick in. It's just bad logic.
 
FACT: Wolverine received an at the very least equal beating in this fight. What's irrelevant is how he fares against anyone else with superior stats. How he fares against other bricks doesn't matter because those other bricks are usually not as strong as the Hulk and don't have the Hulk's ability to heal from Wolverine's attacks.

  • No. Wolverine always gets beat on and tossed around with characters of similar power type. It is stupid to say that just because he is getting tossed around like a ragdoll, that he is somehow losing those battles. Especially when he often ends up winning them in the end. You act as though Wolverine getting beat on is somehow relevant information to indicate that he loses fights. This is obviously not the case. His power is to heal from damage so naturally he gets written as a character that gets to show this power. He heals, then hands out a beating of his own. This is consistent.
  • What you are saying makes no sense, especially when you try to apply it to my argument. If Wolverine is knocked out, the fight is over. The same goes for Hulk. If you really think what you said has any ties to my argument, you have not been paying attention.
  • How he fairs against other bricks is relevant information because the amount of strength Hulk has clearly does not matter. FACT: Wolverine has taken straight shots from Hulk without serious injury. 
 
 While I respect your opinion, I'm calling BS. 
 
Hulk wasn't doing anything until Wolverine held back? He wasn't doing a thing? Hulk was LAYING INTO Death the whole fight. Matter of fact, nothing will convey this better than scans.
All of the pages where Hulk is laying into Wolverine, which is a good amount of pages compared to Wolverine's 2-3 pages where he was cutting into the Hulk. These scans are the majority of the fight save a good chunk of Wolverine's attacks [I'll post the whole fight, if you wish] and the last pages where Wolverine is laying into the Hulk and hesitates.
 
According to you Hulk couldn't do a damn thing against Death, that is untrue. And like I said, there's nothing that remotely suggests that Hulk was about to die. It's possible I missed something, so feel free to point something out. The only thing that Hulk ever suggests is that Wolverine hurts him and inflicts pain, that's it. Wolverine hesitating isn't a sign that he was about to kill Hulk. I don't know where you got this from.  
 
  • What I find curious is that you chose to show all of the pages of this fight except for the ones that I was talking about. Who is posting BS now? I said... Forget it. I will just copy so you can read it again because obviously something became lost in translation: 
  • "It specifically said that Hulk was not able to cope with the fury of Death. He was not even fighting back by the time it got to that panel. He was just getting cut. He was not doing anything until Wolverine held back that last attack. So I guess Hulk was just not in danger of death at all? He was just casually taking blow after blow? The only moment that Hulk was even able to react was when Wolverine hesitated. That was it. Had Wolverine not hesitated, Hulk would not have done a thing." 
  • I put the part you ignored in bold so that you hopefully do not overlook it again. The way Hulk was pounding on Death during the entirely of the fight does not really matter because he was not significantly hurting Death. Death was just soaking damage and biding his time for an opening. I already admitted Hulk was laying into Death until the tables clearly turned and Hulk was helpless. Unable to defend himself. If you are going to say that Hulk's life was not in danger, you might as well just come out and say what you apparently want to say: That Hulk is invincible and unable to be killed by any means, especially not by having his head separated from the rest of his body or by taking something as superficial as brain trauma.
 
 If he were finished the fight would not have continued. 
 
What time was he given? Wolverine stabbed him, Hulk went down, Wolverine started walking away and Hulk stood back up. It's not as if an hour transpired. 
 
You're clearly missing my point. I'm trying to discredit your point by saying that Hulk never really stopped fighting. Deadpool has been knocked out and killed, but he hasn't stood right back up on the next page. THAT is my point. 
  •  Enough time had passed. Wolverine had enough time for some numerous self reflection and had gotten a good distance away before Hulk had healed. You act as though Wolverine pulled the claws out and Hulk stood right up.
  • I am not missing your point at all. I know what your point is. Tell me, what would have happened if Wolverine had chosen not to stop cutting?
  • Deadpool still loses those fights. Unconscious is unconscious and grounds for a win. It does not matter how quickly they recover. To say otherwise is literally saying beings like Wolverine, Hulk and Deadpool never EVER will lose fights. That is silly.
 
 Call it nitpicking, but an inconclusive fight and a stalemate are two different things. On top of that, semantics is all we have men such as us who debate, for they can make all the difference.
  • :)
 
I didn't say that adamantium was the only thing that could harm Hulk, so please don't make it out to be that way. And it depends on what you mean by far below. Also, there was two COMPLETELY different instances where Wolverine tried to cut him with bone claws and couldn't compared to that one in Marvel Fanfare. I don't know why you want to argue this, either, since he has adamantium in this fight.
  • As a matter of a fact, I did not want to argue this point. It was brought up though so I addressed it for the sake of being thorough. The fact of the matter is that Wolverine has cut several metals and other materials with his bone claws. Metals that have been shown to cut and pierce Hulk's body. A steel bar for example. All I am saying is that the Hulk writer did not seem to understand the full scope of Wolverine's bone density. You are right though, for this fight it is pointless.
 
 And just because Hulk gets stabbed or Wolverine hesitates doesn't mean that he loses, either.
  • In one fight, one stab was enough to drop Hulk. In another, he was taking several but could not fight back. Good enough for me.  
 
 Speculation. I would say you're wrong on the basis that he thought he had already killed Hulk and Hulk got back up in a matter of what seemed to be moments.
  • He thought he killed the Hulk so odds are that he did. Wolverine can tell a dead man from an alive one. Hulk just got better. Both he and Wolverine do it all the time.
 
 What number of times save that one time when he fought Fixit [in which Fixit got back up]? The majority of their fights, to my knowledge, end with either Hulk getting rid of Wolverine, someone interfering, or the two stopping on their own.
  • Just because no one was permanently killed does not mean that it could not happen.
 
I'll have to check it out, I must've missed that issue because I didn't enjoy Origins. I know Jeph Loeb did a retelling with Ed McGuinness that mirrored the Ultimate version of Wolverine Vs. Hulk, but I don't remember what issue it was, I feel like I should look it up, though. 
  • I think the one you remember was a dream he had. As far as Origins goes, I am unfamiliar with that series myself. I thought the art was terrible enough to make me not care.
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#67  Edited By CaptainRodgers

Bit of a weird one , i understand the function of Ares axe but why would wolverine have it :S 
Also erik's right , why is there no setting or morales or noting . 
I think wolverine but im not sure.
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CaptainRodgers

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#68  Edited By CaptainRodgers
@erik:
what comic is that scan from ? i know its when wolverine in horseman obv but what issue and series , it looks pretty awesome.
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@erik said:
" @napoleon said:
" @erik: not at all im just a realist, hulk outclasses wolverine in everyway, and most of the times they fight it is in heavly wooded areas where wolverine can hide, but seriously hulk is thousands of times stronger, is much faster, can heal faster, and all of his other atributes are WAY above anything wolverine has. if push comes to shove hulk could ethier throw wolverine in space or eat him "
Hulk does not outclass Wolverine in every way. Wolverine is faster, has a better healing factor, has more durable bones and is smarter than Savage Hulk by miles. Wolverine has never EVER hidden from Hulk.   The only things Hulk has over Wolverine is strength and general tissue durability. That is it.   Push comes to shove, Wolverine can just stab Hulk in the brain. Fight is done. "
Wolverine does not have a better healing factor than Hulk. 
 
And when push comes to shove all the Hulk has to do is punch him into outer space.
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#70  Edited By Erik
@CaptainRodgers said:
" @erik: what comic is that scan from ? i know its when wolverine in horseman obv but what issue and series , it looks pretty awesome. "
Wolverine Vol. 2, #145.
 
@Fist_of_Mandalore said:
" @erik said:
" @napoleon said:
" @erik: not at all im just a realist, hulk outclasses wolverine in everyway, and most of the times they fight it is in heavly wooded areas where wolverine can hide, but seriously hulk is thousands of times stronger, is much faster, can heal faster, and all of his other atributes are WAY above anything wolverine has. if push comes to shove hulk could ethier throw wolverine in space or eat him "
Hulk does not outclass Wolverine in every way. Wolverine is faster, has a better healing factor, has more durable bones and is smarter than Savage Hulk by miles. Wolverine has never EVER hidden from Hulk.   The only things Hulk has over Wolverine is strength and general tissue durability. That is it.   Push comes to shove, Wolverine can just stab Hulk in the brain. Fight is done. "
Wolverine does not have a better healing factor than Hulk.  And when push comes to shove all the Hulk has to do is punch him into outer space. "

Wolverine has the better healing factor.
 
Your second sentence has nothing to do with the exchange I was having with Napoleon.
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#71  Edited By iLLituracy
@erik said: 
  •  "  @iLLituracy:

    • I do know that because Hulk was done. There was no resistance at that point. None at all.
Done would be done, not back up on the next page. But I guess we're not going to agree. 


  • No. Wolverine always gets beat on and tossed around with characters of similar power type. It is stupid to say that just because he is getting tossed around like a ragdoll, that he is somehow losing those battles. Especially when he often ends up winning them in the end. You act as though Wolverine getting beat on is somehow relevant information to indicate that he loses fights. This is obviously not the case. His power is to heal from damage so naturally he gets written as a character that gets to show this power. He heals, then hands out a beating of his own. This is consistent.
So because he can soak damage and is seek soaking damage a lot of the time that means that people should ignore when he's getting taxed? I disagree strongly. Wolverine is somehow exempt from beatings because of his healing factor? C'mon. :\


  • What you are saying makes no sense, especially when you try to apply it to my argument. If Wolverine is knocked out, the fight is over. The same goes for Hulk. If you really think what you said has any ties to my argument, you have not been paying attention.
What I'm saying makes perfect sense, you choose to ignore it. Someone doesn't have to actually WIN a fight to be considered the WINNING party. They just have to have the edge in the fight. From an unfinished fight you can gauge HOW WELL each party faired in the fight.

 

  • How he fairs against other bricks is relevant information because the amount of strength Hulk has clearly does not matter. FACT: Wolverine has taken straight shots from Hulk without serious injury. 
Who's contesting his ability to take shots from Hulk? 

 

  • What I find curious is that you chose to show all of the pages of this fight except for the ones that I was talking about. Who is posting BS now? I said... Forget it. I will just copy so you can read it again because obviously something became lost in translation: 
I specifically SAID I was posting all the ones where HULK, whom you said "was not able to cope with the fury of Death" and "He was not doing anything until Wolverine held back on that last attack." In context, you were saying that HULK wasn't doing ANYTHING against Wolverine. That is untrue and you were wrong, THAT'S WHY I posted the scans that I posted and on top of that SAID that it wasn't the whole fight and offered to post the whole fight. Nothing was lost in translation, I feel like you're backtracking, to be honest.


  • "It specifically said that Hulk was not able to cope with the fury of Death. He was not even fighting back by the time it got to that panel. He was just getting cut. He was not doing anything until Wolverine held back that last attack. So I guess Hulk was just not in danger of death at all? He was just casually taking blow after blow? The only moment that Hulk was even able to react was when Wolverine hesitated. That was it. Had Wolverine not hesitated, Hulk would not have done a thing." 
Literally there was three consecutive blows by Wolverine. That's hardly the WORST Wolverine's done to Hulk, either.  
 
The fact of the matter is Hulk being in danger of death is YOUR speculation. Hulk being done is YOUR speculation. Hulk not responding to the blow that Wolverine hesitated to deliver if it was delivered is YOUR speculation. None of this is admissible and usable in this fight when it's so grossly unsupported by facts. 


  • I put the part you ignored in bold so that you hopefully do not overlook it again. The way Hulk was pounding on Death during the entirely of the fight does not really matter because he was not significantly hurting Death. Death was just soaking damage and biding his time for an opening. I already admitted Hulk was laying into Death until the tables clearly turned and Hulk was helpless. Unable to defend himself. If you are going to say that Hulk's life was not in danger, you might as well just come out and say what you apparently want to say: That Hulk is invincible and unable to be killed by any means, especially not by having his head separated from the rest of his body or by taking something as superficial as brain trauma . 
 He wasn't significantly hurting Death? That's why Death wound up face down right after the supposedly blow he hesitated on. That's why Death was showing pain.  


  •  Enough time had passed. Wolverine had enough time for some numerous self reflection and had gotten a good distance away before Hulk had healed. You act as though Wolverine pulled the claws out and Hulk stood right up.
Inner dialogue hardly reflects time passing and that good distance barely looks two steps in the actual panel. 


  • I am not missing your point at all. I know what your point is. Tell me, what would have happened if Wolverine had chosen not to stop cutting?
Why would Wolverine continue cutting if he thought he was dead? Either way Hulk would have gotten back up because of his increasing anger. What is more wounds inflicted on him going to do? Hulk's cells regenerate so fast that he most likely couldn't bleed out. 


  • Deadpool still loses those fights. Unconscious is unconscious and grounds for a win. It does not matter how quickly they recover. To say otherwise is literally saying beings like Wolverine, Hulk and Deadpool never EVER will lose fights. That is silly.
You've got it twisted. I wasn't arguing that Deadpool never loses. I was saying that Deadpool loses on the grounds that he's been KOed because you said by my logic Deadpool never loses due to a healing factor. In fact, that's more so your logic seeing as how Wolverine can't be noted as losing in a fight even though he is.

 

  • In one fight, one stab was enough to drop Hulk. In another, he was taking several but could not fight back. Good enough for me.  
If one stab which Hulk got right back up from is okay to throw into the debate and [I think you're talking about the Death instance] three or so stabs which Hulk got back up from and put Wolverine down then all the fights where Wolverine is getting smacked around for a long duration of the fight is also admissible. That is most of their fights that Hulk has either been on the winning end. 

    • He thought he killed the Hulk so odds are that he did. Wolverine can tell a dead man from an alive one. Hulk just got better. Both he and Wolverine do it all the time.  
 Again, this is speculation. Can Wolverine tell a corpse from someone who is very much alive, yes, I'm inclined to agree with you. Can he do it in every situation? Probably not. Can he do it in the middle of berserker? I doubt it.
  •  

    • Just because no one was permanently killed does not mean that it could not happen.
And on the other hand, just because it hasn't happen doesn't mean it could not. 


  • I think the one you remember was a dream he had. As far as Origins goes, I am unfamiliar with that series myself. I thought the art was terrible enough to make me not care.
I thought it was, I wasn't sure. It was still a rather entertaining book.
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#72  Edited By iLLituracy

Also, I was looking for the Hulk/Wolverine series, I only came across Six Hours, where Hulk savagely beats Wolverine in the last issue [their only fight in the series]. I'm still looking for the original mini.

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#73  Edited By sxgt

Wolverine does not have super human strength.
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#74  Edited By iLLituracy
@sxgt said:
" Wolverine does not have super human strength. "
He actually does.
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#75  Edited By Erik
@iLLituracy:
Done would be done, not back up on the next page. But I guess we're not going to agree.
  • So if someone is knocked unconscious or dies in a standard battle where death or unconscious is a win, somehow there is no victory as long as the felled opponent heals quickly from it?
 
So because he can soak damage and is seek soaking damage a lot of the time that means that people should ignore when he's getting taxed? I disagree strongly. Wolverine is somehow exempt from beatings because of his healing factor? C'mon. :\ 
  •  I have no idea where you got this idea in your head but it was not from reading my arguments. I never said that Wolverine is immune from beatings. I believe I readily said that he gets them often. Taking a greater overall beating does not equal a loss unless we are talking about the Mortal Combat video games.
 
What I'm saying makes perfect sense, you choose to ignore it. Someone doesn't have to actually WIN a fight to be considered the WINNING party. They just have to have the edge in the fight. From an unfinished fight you can gauge HOW WELL each party faired in the fight.
  •  Not true in cases like these two battle thread opponents. See above point as to why. Winning is literally the same as 'almost' in fights with these characters. Almost just does not matter.
 
Who's contesting his ability to take shots from Hulk?
  •  Apparently you if you think that taking a pounding from the Hulk is definitive proof that he was losing.
 
I specifically SAID I was posting all the ones where HULK, whom you said "was not able to cope with the fury of Death" and "He was not doing anything until Wolverine held back on that last attack." In context, you were saying that HULK wasn't doing ANYTHING against Wolverine. That is untrue and you were wrong, THAT'S WHY I posted the scans that I posted and on top of that SAID that it wasn't the whole fight and offered to post the whole fight. Nothing was lost in translation, I feel like you're backtracking, to be honest.
  •  At the point in which I was addressing. I was not talking about the previous scenes in the fight simply because I already admitted that Wolverine was getting beat on. In or out of context, my words were addressing a specific point in the battle. I am not wrong on the issue. You just think I am because you assumed something about my argument and now am unwilling to admit you 'read between the lines' when there was nothing to read.
 
Literally there was three consecutive blows by Wolverine. That's hardly the WORST Wolverine's done to Hulk, either.  
 
The fact of the matter is Hulk being in danger of death is YOUR speculation. Hulk being done is YOUR speculation. Hulk not responding to the blow that Wolverine hesitated to deliver if it was delivered is YOUR speculation. None of this is admissible and usable in this fight when it's so grossly unsupported by facts.
  •  No. They are the logical outcomes to those specific fights. Logically, if Hulk could not return blows, he would have fallen under them as Wolverine has the means to complete such a task.
 
He wasn't significantly hurting Death? That's why Death wound up face down right after the supposedly blow he hesitated on. That's why Death was showing pain.
  •  Face down does not equal significantly injured. He got up and was teleported back to base. Seems like you are the one who is injecting his own speculation into what was going on. Death hesitated and Hulk was finally able to react. Since Hulk is a great deal stronger than Death, Death wound up 'face down'. That does not mean he was hurt by any means. I can post scan after scan of Wolverine getting put 'face down' without being put into a position that he is unable to continue fighting.
 
Inner dialogue hardly reflects time passing and that good distance barely looks two steps in the actual panel.
  •  I never said it reflects time but it is just as good of an indication as any. Also, you may need to read that again if you think they were only two steps apart.
 
Why would Wolverine continue cutting if he thought he was dead? Either way Hulk would have gotten back up because of his increasing anger. What is more wounds inflicted on him going to do? Hulk's cells regenerate so fast that he most likely couldn't bleed out.
  •  Why indeed. Hulk was dead. According to normal battle thread rules, that is a win. Getting back up means little for the battle.
 
You've got it twisted. I wasn't arguing that Deadpool never loses. I was saying that Deadpool loses on the grounds that he's been KOed because you said by my logic Deadpool never loses due to a healing factor. In fact, that's more so your logic seeing as how Wolverine can't be noted as losing in a fight even though he is.
  •  Wrong. Deadpool being KO'd is just like Hulk being KO'd. Deadpool being killed is the same as Hulk being killed. In terms of battles, these are still loses despite their ability to recover from such things.
 
If one stab which Hulk got right back up from is okay to throw into the debate and [I think you're talking about the Death instance] three or so stabs which Hulk got back up from and put Wolverine down then all the fights where Wolverine is getting smacked around for a long duration of the fight is also admissible. That is most of their fights that Hulk has either been on the winning end.
  •   Admissible sure. Definitive? Not so much. I never said Wolverine will not get thrown around. Never once. If you somehow managed to glean that from my posts... Well then I am sorry.
 
Again, this is speculation. Can Wolverine tell a corpse from someone who is very much alive, yes, I'm inclined to agree with you. Can he do it in every situation? Probably not. Can he do it in the middle of berserker? I doubt it.
  • What does berserk have to do with hearing heartbeats? If anything, while operating on instinct, he would have an even easier time because he himself has said that death has a smell. I am not just talking about decay but some animal sense. In any case, when he got up, he was no longer a berserker and could have been able to tell then. 
 
And on the other hand, just because it hasn't happen doesn't mean it could not.
  • Sure. Just like just because Wolverine was not able to deliver the killing blow to Hulk as Death, does not mean he could not.
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#76  Edited By Boneapart
@erik: 
your very good.
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#77  Edited By EpitomeofCool

Wolverine..

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#78  Edited By god_spawn  Moderator
@sxgt:
he does i have scans for it if you want some showings on wolverine's strength.
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Boneapart

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#79  Edited By Boneapart
@god_spawn: 
cant he lift like 10 people over his head or something?. i read that he's slightly stronger than captain america
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superdemon

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#80  Edited By superdemon
@napoleon said:
" @erik:@erik said:
" @napoleon said:
" @erik: not at all im just a realist, hulk outclasses wolverine in everyway, and most of the times they fight it is in heavly wooded areas where wolverine can hide, but seriously hulk is thousands of times stronger, is much faster, can heal faster, and all of his other atributes are WAY above anything wolverine has. if push comes to shove hulk could ethier throw wolverine in space or eat him "
Hulk does not outclass Wolverine in every way. Wolverine is faster, has a better healing factor, has more durable bones and is smarter than Savage Hulk by miles. Wolverine has never EVER hidden from Hulk.   The only things Hulk has over Wolverine is strength and general tissue durability. That is it.   Push comes to shove, Wolverine can just stab Hulk in the brain. Fight is done. "
thats the thing, it wouldn't be done. hulk has a faster healing factor and it increaces with his anger. he has snatched missles out of the sky before, and can run 300 mph. he is so outclassed "
Captain America has also caught missiles out of the air.
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Boneapart

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#81  Edited By Boneapart
@superdemon: yeah, i know. he also bent the little flaping bit on the end of a plane once, he once held a car still while it was trying to drive off, he once hit a robot red skull so hard with his head that the ceilling came down, he even healed from a bullet being fired into his head (in not much time). and a lot more absurd sh*t. he is more powerfull than some give credit for. (or maybe he just more PIS than anyother character) i'll go for the first explanation. 
 
the point i was making in the quote was that hulk has the speed to bat wolverine away if he's on him or anywhere near him
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#82  Edited By superdemon
@napoleon said:
" @superdemon: yeah, i know. he also bent the little flaping bit on the end of a plane once, he once held a car still while it was trying to drive off, he once hit a robot red skull so hard with his head that the ceilling came down, he even healed from a bullet being fired into his head (in not much time). and a lot more absurd sh*t. he is more powerfull than some give credit for. (or maybe he just more PIS than anyother character) i'll go for the first explanation.   the point i was making in the quote was that hulk has the speed to bat wolverine away if he's on him or anywhere near him "
Understood.
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#83  Edited By god_spawn  Moderator
@napoleon said:
"@god_spawn:  cant he lift like 10 people over his head or something?. i read that he's slightly stronger than captain america "


 
 

I think without his adamantium he is about equal to cap maybe slightly above, but with the adamantium his skeleton's natural limit to support heavy weights is by passed so he can lift more and he would heal any muscle tears right away anyway. IMO he can lift up over a ton to two tons. The handbook always states him as excess of 800 pounds, but alot of his showings suggest otherwise
he can do more than 800 pounds.
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iLLituracy

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#84  Edited By iLLituracy
@erik said: 
  • " @iLLituracy:

    • So if someone is knocked unconscious or dies in a standard battle where death or unconscious is a win, somehow there is no victory as long as the felled opponent heals quickly from it?
Doesn't matter if they heal quickly from it. If they're really dead or KOed they wouldn't get back up for a while. There's a distinct difference from just healing over an injury after being downed and being injured, healing and getting back up. A fighter doesn't lose unless he's had the full 10 count, a wrestler if he's had the full 3.  
  •    

    •  I have no idea where you got this idea in your head but it was not from reading my arguments. I never said that Wolverine is immune from beatings. I believe I readily said that he gets them often. Taking a greater overall beating does not equal a loss unless we are talking about the Mortal Combat video games.
You're not reading my counter-argument correctly. I KNOW you're saying he's getting beatings, my point is what you said toward the end, that his beatings don't equate a loss. 
 
It may not be a loss, but it does reflect how well they fair in battle against a certain foe. Seeing how many Hulk and Wolverine have had and how many have wound up with Hulk overpowering and smacking around Wolverine I would say Hulk at the very least 7 times out of 10 will do that. The only instances where Wolverine wasn't somewhat overwhelmed is in 340 to my recollection. 
  •   

    •  Not true in cases like these two battle thread opponents. See above point as to why. Winning is literally the same as 'almost' in fights with these characters. Almost just does not matter.
Ignoring 'almost' is pretty silly seeing as how 'almost' is just about all we have, as I've said before. 


  •  Apparently you if you think that taking a pounding from the Hulk is definitive proof that he was losing.
If it isn't then being stabbed three times isn't taking a beating from Wolverine, either. Most of your arguments can be flipped and applied to what you're saying much worse. 


  •  At the point in which I was addressing. I was not talking about the previous scenes in the fight simply because I already admitted that Wolverine was getting beat on. In or out of context, my words were addressing a specific point in the battle. I am not wrong on the issue. You just think I am because you assumed something about my argument and now am unwilling to admit you 'read between the lines' when there was nothing to read.
I don't 'read between the lines.' The way you worded it made it seem like you were talking about the overall battle, I could point out where you made it seem as such, as well.


  •  No. They are the logical outcomes to those specific fights. Logically, if Hulk could not return blows, he would have fallen under them as Wolverine has the means to complete such a task.
Logical based on what? Hulk continuously healing from his berserker? Has the means to complete such a task based on what? Where has Hulk actually admitted that Wolverine could actually kill him or does anything to him other than inflict pain? Where does Wolverine himself state that he can? Most of the stories where he has or does aren't canon and most of the times they encounter one another Hulk doesn't really see him as a threat. 
 
There was the fight where Fixit was getting worked by Wolverine for a while after Wolverine put him down for a matter of panels, but it was hardly one-sided. 
 
There was the fight where he went up against Death, who was arguably augmented by Apocalypse and the only thing that suggests [but, alas, it doesn't at all suggest] Wolverine would have won was but one moment of hesitation. No dialogue states Hulk was dying or going to be killed, merely that he was in pain. The only thing the hesitation suggests is that Wolverine, for a moment, remembered himself. That's it. Anything further than that would be speculation to the highest degree.
  •  

    •  Face down does not equal significantly injured. He got up and was teleported back to base. Seems like you are the one who is injecting his own speculation into what was going on. Death hesitated and Hulk was finally able to react. Since Hulk is a great deal stronger than Death, Death wound up 'face down'. That does not mean he was hurt by any means. I can post scan after scan of Wolverine getting put 'face down' without being put into a position that he is unable to continue fighting.
"Finally" suggests that Wolverine was laying into Hulk for a prolonged time. Untrue. Three strikes and a noting of pain isn't going to keep the Hulk from reacting. 
 
Death was hurt. Wolverine has a healing factor, that doesn't mean that he's impervious to pain in any sort of way.  
 
And as for your scan, he was lying for the remainder of the comic. See, unlike Hulk back in Hulk 340, Wolverine, despite having a "better healing factor" didn't get back up as Hulk walked away. 


  •  I never said it reflects time but it is just as good of an indication as any. Also, you may need to read that again if you think they were only two steps apart.
How is it an indicator? I can find panels where Peter Parker is monologuing to himself while doing a task and the task still not be done by the time he's finished. Dialogue, sometimes, can reflect the passage of time, but inner dialogue isn't reliable unless it specifically states how much time has passed. For example, Wolverine goes on talking about how fatal a thunderclap is just before Wolverine gets his claws in him, it doesn't represent how much time is passing in that one panel, though. But this is pretty much semantics. If you want to count that as a win for Wolverine, have at it, 
 


  •  Why indeed. Hulk was dead. According to normal battle thread rules, that is a win. Getting back up means little for the battle.
If you want to count it as a win, have at it. There's no real proof that Hulk was dead or KO'd, the fact that he stood back up right after that suggests otherwise, but I don't feel like arguing that.


  •  Wrong. Deadpool being KO'd is just like Hulk being KO'd. Deadpool being killed is the same as Hulk being killed. In terms of battles, these are still loses despite their ability to recover from such things.
You're talking about in broad terms. I'm talking about instances. If Deadpool gets put down and gets back up right after because his opponent believes he's KO'd then it doesn't really count. The same way IMO it shouldn't count that Wolverine thought the Hulk was done when he clearly wasn't.


  •   Admissible sure. Definitive? Not so much. I never said Wolverine will not get thrown around. Never once. If you somehow managed to glean that from my posts... Well then I am sorry.
I never said you said that. But you're holding Wolverine and Hulk to two different standards. If Wolverine gets his claws into Hulk, that's a plus for Wolverine. If Wolverine hesitates, that's a plus for Wolverine. But since Wolverine tries to tank blows, no matter how much Hulk pummels him it's not really admissible, whatsoever. So in your mind Wolverine basically has all the wins when it comes to his fights with the Hulk despite the fact that Hulk had the edge in damn near all of their fights save 340.
 


  • What does berserk have to do with hearing heartbeats? If anything, while operating on instinct, he would have an even easier time because he himself has said that death has a smell. I am not just talking about decay but some animal sense. In any case, when he got up, he was no longer a berserker and could have been able to tell then. 
Because when he's crazed he doesn't pay attention to detail. The only times I remember him hearing heartbeats were when he was in his right of mind. 


  • Sure. Just like just because Wolverine was not able to deliver the killing blow to Hulk as Death, does not mean he could not.
"
Well, as delightful as this was, arguing details got old fast and no one is really presenting anything new, so I'm going to bow out. Good day, gents. 
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Fist_of_Mandalore

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@erik said:

 
@Fist_of_Mandalore said:
" @erik said:
" @napoleon said:
" @erik: not at all im just a realist, hulk outclasses wolverine in everyway, and most of the times they fight it is in heavly wooded areas where wolverine can hide, but seriously hulk is thousands of times stronger, is much faster, can heal faster, and all of his other atributes are WAY above anything wolverine has. if push comes to shove hulk could ethier throw wolverine in space or eat him "
Hulk does not outclass Wolverine in every way. Wolverine is faster, has a better healing factor, has more durable bones and is smarter than Savage Hulk by miles. Wolverine has never EVER hidden from Hulk.   The only things Hulk has over Wolverine is strength and general tissue durability. That is it.   Push comes to shove, Wolverine can just stab Hulk in the brain. Fight is done. "
Wolverine does not have a better healing factor than Hulk.  And when push comes to shove all the Hulk has to do is punch him into outer space. "
Wolverine has the better healing factor.  Your second sentence has nothing to do with the exchange I was having with Napoleon. "
I'm pretty sure he does have a better healing factor. 
 
The second does have to do what you said to Napoleon. You said that when push comes to shove, Wolverine can just stab in the head, fight over. But thats wrong. When push comes to shove all the Hulk would have to do is punch Wolverine to the next state. 
 
Can Wolverine survive Hulk's blows? Most certainly. His healing factor and unbreakable bones allow such a thing. 
 
Can Wolverine dodge around the Hulk utilizing his speed to stay in the fight longer? Absolutely. 
 
But when it comes down to it. One punch from the Hulk would knock Wolverine into the next state and knocked out. We have seen far weaker do so to Wolverine(Without the next state part, obviously). 
 
Note: I am talking about regular Hulk, not Joe Fixit.
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#86  Edited By Boneapart

ive never liked the fact that wolverine can even stay in a battle with the hulk (it allways seemed like a homage to me)
 
. but i do understand it, savage hulk is, lets face it, a retard and as ive said he really doesnt know how to fight. he fights in self defence only using the most basic punches, if he was a stone cold murderer and had skills he would tear wolverine to pieces (literaly), tear off his skin and organs or throw him in space. but since thats not what the hulks about i can kind of understand their fights. 
 
and it is true if hulk hit wolverine his hardest, if he was truly pissed off and prepared he should knock wolverine to a differnt country

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Erik

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#87  Edited By Erik
@iLLituracy: 
Doesn't matter if they heal quickly from it. If they're really dead or KOed they wouldn't get back up for a while. There's a distinct difference from just healing over an injury after being downed and being injured, healing and getting back up. A fighter doesn't lose unless he's had the full 10 count, a wrestler if he's had the full 3.  
  • Exactly. It does not matter at all if they heal from it. Once unconscious or dead, the fight is over. If there is some arbitrary amount of time required for you to consider otherwise, please clue me in. A fighter and a wrestler are both considered done fighting without a count if the fighters are knocked out or dead.
 
You're not reading my counter-argument correctly. I KNOW you're saying he's getting beatings, my point is what you said toward the end, that his beatings don't equate a loss. 
 
It may not be a loss, but it does reflect how well they fair in battle against a certain foe. Seeing how many Hulk and Wolverine have had and how many have wound up with Hulk overpowering and smacking around Wolverine I would say Hulk at the very least 7 times out of 10 will do that. The only instances where Wolverine wasn't somewhat overwhelmed is in 340 to my recollection.
  • If your intention is to illustrate how Wolverine will get smacked around in most cases, fine. That would be an accurate illustration. If you are trying to say that being smacked around somehow means that Wolverine is likely to lose, that is not accurate.
 
Ignoring 'almost' is pretty silly seeing as how 'almost' is just about all we have, as I've said before.
  • I never said we should ignore almost. I was trying to show you how 'winning' as you described it, is not definitive at all. Far from it in fact. 
 
If it isn't then being stabbed three times isn't taking a beating from Wolverine, either. Most of your arguments can be flipped and applied to what you're saying much worse.
  • Hmmm..... I must be silly to base my argument off of the narrative that comes from neither Hulk or Wolverine. Hulk was unable to react to Death's assault.
 
I don't 'read between the lines.' The way you worded it made it seem like you were talking about the overall battle, I could point out where you made it seem as such, as well.
  • Please do. Because I specifically remember saying "at that point" or moment or some other wording to indicate a specific point in the battle. 
 
Logical based on what? Hulk continuously healing from his berserker? Has the means to complete such a task based on what? Where has Hulk actually admitted that Wolverine could actually kill him or does anything to him other than inflict pain? Where does Wolverine himself state that he can? Most of the stories where he has or does aren't canon and most of the times they encounter one another Hulk doesn't really see him as a threat. 
 
There was the fight where Fixit was getting worked by Wolverine for a while after Wolverine put him down for a matter of panels, but it was hardly one-sided. 
 
There was the fight where he went up against Death, who was arguably augmented by Apocalypse and the only thing that suggests [but, alas, it doesn't at all suggest] Wolverine would have won was but one moment of hesitation. No dialogue states Hulk was dying or going to be killed, merely that he was in pain. The only thing the hesitation suggests is that Wolverine, for a moment, remembered himself. That's it. Anything further than that would be speculation to the highest degree.
  •  Logic based on the fact that Hulk's head is capable of being separated from the rest of his body. Logic based on the fact that should Hulk lose significant amounts of blood, he will fall. Logic based on the fact that should Hulk receive a blow to the brain, he will fall.
  • Wolverine has the means to kill Hulk. The means are identified as adamantium claws. 
  • Wolverine already did kill Hulk. Hulk just healed up within a page.
  • Hulk has never disregarded Wolverine as less than a threat except the Hulk issues where Wolverine had bone claws. Need I remind you that I pointed out the Hulk writer seemed oblivious to the nature of Wolverine's bone claws?
 
"Finally" suggests that Wolverine was laying into Hulk for a prolonged time. Untrue. Three strikes and a noting of pain isn't going to keep the Hulk from reacting. 
 
Death was hurt. Wolverine has a healing factor, that doesn't mean that he's impervious to pain in any sort of way.  
 
And as for your scan, he was lying for the remainder of the comic. See, unlike Hulk back in Hulk 340, Wolverine, despite having a "better healing factor" didn't get back up as Hulk walked away.
  • I never made a claim that Wolverine is unable to feel pain. Uninjured has nothing to do with pain.
  • Do not try to mislead with how long Death was put into the ground. It was one panel before Apocalypse lifted him from the ground and he was teleported back to his master. He was fully conscious and even starting to get up when he was dropped in front of Apocalypse.
 
How is it an indicator? I can find panels where Peter Parker is monologuing to himself while doing a task and the task still not be done by the time he's finished. Dialogue, sometimes, can reflect the passage of time, but inner dialogue isn't reliable unless it specifically states how much time has passed. For example, Wolverine goes on talking about how fatal a thunderclap is just before Wolverine gets his claws in him, it doesn't represent how much time is passing in that one panel, though. But this is pretty much semantics. If you want to count that as a win for Wolverine, have at it,
  •  I said it was just as good as any, not that it was definitive. Unless you can find me specific points of the passage of time, I can just as easily say that Wolverine stabbed Hulk and sat there for hours before getting up to walk away. Hell, I can even say that he was walking away at a snail's pace. 
 
If you want to count it as a win, have at it. There's no real proof that Hulk was dead or KO'd, the fact that he stood back up right after that suggests otherwise, but I don't feel like arguing that. 
  • Lol. Okay, Hulk was just fine and he only stopped fighting because Wolverine is just so cute. Like an angry kitten. Wolverine obviously thought that Hulk was slain or unconscious else he would not have stopped.
 
You're talking about in broad terms. I'm talking about instances. If Deadpool gets put down and gets back up right after because his opponent believes he's KO'd then it doesn't really count. The same way IMO it shouldn't count that Wolverine thought the Hulk was done when he clearly wasn't.
  • I am talking about how they relate to battles. If Deadpool gets knocked out or incapacitated by pseudo-death, he is not getting right back up anyway. Some recovery time is required. You act as though these characters can be knocked out or killed and instantly recover as if nothing had happened.
 
I never said you said that. But you're holding Wolverine and Hulk to two different standards. If Wolverine gets his claws into Hulk, that's a plus for Wolverine. If Wolverine hesitates, that's a plus for Wolverine. But since Wolverine tries to tank blows, no matter how much Hulk pummels him it's not really admissible, whatsoever. So in your mind Wolverine basically has all the wins when it comes to his fights with the Hulk despite the fact that Hulk had the edge in damn near all of their fights save 340.
  • I am saying I never said that. So if you want to prove me wrong, this would be an easy point for you to get. Simply quote the post where I said that Wolverine will never get thrown around by Hulk.
  • I never said hesitating was a plus for Wolverine? I said that Hulk was unable to do anything until Death did hesitate. That is what is stated in the comic. Getting his claws into Hulk is a plus for Wolverine. Just as every blow Hulk lands is a point for him.
  • You clearly need to read my posts again because I never said Hulk's blows are considered inadmissible. Are we even debating with one another here?
 
Because when he's crazed he doesn't pay attention to detail. The only times I remember him hearing heartbeats were when he was in his right of mind.
  • He got up and was walking away with a satisfied grin on his face. Never has he done this while berserk. That behavior comes prior to or after. Are you saying that Wolverine's senses are somehow muffled while he is berserk? Not so. In fact, even while berserk, he is easily able to make complex and strategic decisions in a compressed time frame as stated by Forge during an evaluation of Wolverine while in the throws of his berseker rage during a combat simulation. Berserk does not equal stupid.
 
Well, as delightful as this was, arguing details got old fast and no one is really presenting anything new, so I'm going to bow out. Good day, gents.  
  •  Okay.
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Vezok123

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#88  Edited By Vezok123

Hulks better in every aspect. the only way wolverine was even able to stay in the fight with green hulk is strategy, but since grey hulk is relativelly smart, wolverine has no hope.

This is almost spite.

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#89  Edited By Godsmackcancer

@Erik:

Oh yes hulk would get smoked you stupid faggot. Go eat a dick nigga.

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jeanroygrant

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#90  Edited By jeanroygrant

Wolverine

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Static Shock

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#91  Edited By Static Shock
@Godsmackcancer: Stop trolling, calling people names, and using inappropriate language. You've been warned. 
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#92  Edited By Blob

It's a lot closer then when Wolverine fights the normal Green Hulk but he still loses to Grey Hulk here.

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geraldthesloth

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#93  Edited By geraldthesloth

So much maturity right now.

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