" @thegentlemanrogue: Durge also has powerful weaponry, you forgot about that. I know who Durge is, I'm simply not knowledgeable on who exactly he's beaten. Incorrect, I'm simply pointing out that their losses are completely understandable given certain circumstances. You clearly don't understand what the word evidence means. I don't mean you rambling on about Wolverine, I want actual scans and such. Although I honestly can find Wolverine being KOed by less for every time you post him getting nuked. "
Wolverine's feats are well documented, asking me to proof he is better than Durge, is like asking someone to prove that Superman is stronger than Rogue. Seriously, this is Wolverine not Night Thrasher, or someone without much fan service who's feats can't be verified. Take two minutes and browse a respect thread or something...
I should hope so, he has only eaten two nukes in his 30+ year career.
The afore mentioned All Ages Wolverine First Class which I already mentioned. All Ages Wolverine can't cut lose and go berserker, not really at least. So his rage, a well documented characteristic, becomes a detriment to the plot of the book that needs to be addressed. "
Eh? I don't think so, the instance I have in mind was from his main book, back when he still had bone claws and Sabretooth had just gotten adamantium. It involved Wolverine having to marry Viper for some reason, and Shadowcat was there as well.
" And boom goes the dynamite. Wolverine get's KO'd via Force Choke. Maul's every bit as capable of choking someone mid-air as Darth Vader (though Vader has much greater overall telekinetic feats). Even Wolverine needs to breath. "
@thegentlemanrogue: So in other words you have no evidence then? You yourself have even just pointed out the contradiction of your own words with actual cannon. You claimed that Wolverine was more skilled when berserk, but then you pointed out that in the past this was not the case. So then, why in the world would his instincts change? Don't answer that it's a rhetorical question used to emphasize my point. The answer is that it can't. It's an impossibility, so in other words, you're entire argument that Wolverine is more skilled when berserk contradicts the very cannon you just referred to!
Not to mention you're still avoiding that things that keep Durge and Wolverine from being the same person. Strength, weaponry, and experience. And an argument could still be made for a healing factor difference due to Wolverine's inconsistent healing factor.
"The entire point of formal martial training, is to practice over and over, for the moves to become like instinct, second nature. It isn't second nature for Wolverine, it is first nature (another thing he himself has said), Berserker Wolverine is what every martial arts spends their life time to become, only his combat instinct is innate. When he came out of the wilderness of Alberta after leading the wolf pack, he was the perfect fighter. The Forge quote was made while he was monitoring Wolverine's vitals in the Danger Room after he lost his Adamantium, to test his current abilities.No the Obi-wan who released the weakness in his combat abilities after Maul killed his master and became the greatest master of Form III light saber combat Soresu in the history of the force, and Anakin who was one of the most powerful and skilled Jedi of all time. "
True and Correct. Wolverines beserker mode is an purely instinctive and ultimately calculated state of mind. It's like a Lion chasing it's prey. The lion bites at the rite spot, at the perfect moment, with the needed amount of pressure & lethality. A lion does not just chase and bite, it's nature is to get it done effectively. At the moments in which the prey is assisted or the circumstances change the lions instincts will take either strike appropriately, end it's pursuit, or if needed run away.
Yes the purpose of constant training is to make the techniques natural and instinctive.
@ThaMessenger07: A lion doesn't know to dodge a gun. The instinct = skill argument is horribly flawed, and I will not accept such a flimsy case as evidence that Wolverine is more skilled when berserk.
@Decoy Elite: Your right because it is not in the lions common day to day life style. Nor does the Lion have the speed to dodge some guns. But instinctively if it hears a gun shot which would be more common to it and has been near poachers taking down other animals or lions from it's pride then it's natural reaction would be to run the opposite way. If it can take a bullet and this is instinctively embedded in it's subconscious then the lion would take the bullet to get the kill rather then run.
Instinct Doesn't= Skill it is Superior to skill. That is the reason a Martial Artist trains to make the skill Instinctive. In battle the course and flow is hard to determine especially against an enemy that you have never battled before. Adapting and being able to strike instinctively is the only way to gain victory. The instinct is to be dropped and the analitical mind is to take over if you are headed into battle with an opponent that you know of and know more or less what he is bringing to the the table. Problem is you still do not know what will occur during battle so the last thing that should be going through your mind is how to properly throw a jab. It needs to be instinctive for you to execute techniques properly.
@ThaMessenger07: Bull crap. I'm sorry, but you're just rambling here trying to make what is honestly nothing but a flimsy excuse for why Wolverine won't be able to properly fight, sound legit. It's not. If everyone were instinctively a perfect fighter their would be no need for training, or any thing of the sort. Wolverine is not some perfect fighter when berserk, that makes no sense and as I've pointed out contradicts other comics with Wolverine.
Maul but not by much, he is going to limp away with some bad wounds. Logical reasoning, he can cut muscle tissue off of Logan and slow him down tremendously. Logan cant get close to Maul as much as he would like because Maul has telekinesis
@Decoy Elite: My statements truth and far from rambling but I will let your blurred tunnel vision see what it wants. Once again you are correct it doesn't make him a better fighter, it makes him a perfect killer where every step he takes his a perfect stroke to the mural of death he will pain. He is bloodlusted and going to kill that is his specialty and that is what he was made for. It has been only used on occasions in the comics and only for the sake of plot as a weakness. In fact it can be said that his Beserker has been shown more times as an improvement then a weakness. It is the sole reason wolverine lost so often to Creed, because Creed's combat was more natural, while Logan trained to suppress that side. He was consider lesser the Logan because Logan's Primal instincts are superior to Victors.
You keep asking for evidence but there is tons of it through his history. It's like your complaining cause you found out last minute you need to wear a suit to a job interview. It doesn't need to be posted and they don't need to tell you, It's Implied!
" @thegentlemanrogue: So in other words you have no evidence then? You yourself have even just pointed out the contradiction of your own words with actual cannon. You claimed that Wolverine was more skilled when berserk, but then you pointed out that in the past this was not the case. So then, why in the world would his instincts change? Don't answer that it's a rhetorical question used to emphasize my point. The answer is that it can't. It's an impossibility, so in other words, you're entire argument that Wolverine is more skilled when berserk contradicts the very cannon you just referred to! Not to mention you're still avoiding that things that keep Durge and Wolverine from being the same person. Strength, weaponry, and experience. And an argument could still be made for a healing factor difference due to Wolverine's inconsistent healing factor. "
*sigh*
"He's regressed to the emotional response pattern of a berserker killer ape... but he retains highly sophisticated combat skills and is capable of complex strategic decisions with in a compressed time frame! The equivalent of an olympic gymnast doing a gold medal routine while simultaneously beating four chess computers in his head!"
Seriously. How is this news to you? The fact that the Berserker is better than Wolverine in every way is an essential part of the Wolverine mythos. It is why Ogun was training him, and the primary reason why Wolverine was eventually able to beat him. Berserker Wolverine is the perfect killer, the absolute pinnacle of not just Wolverine's potential as a fighter but anyones, his combat instincts are flawless... he just also happens to kill with complete indiscretion. Wolverine's training as a fighter as always been to develop the discipline to control the beast, not to become the best fighter, this is what defines the character. The fundamental themes that Wolverine struggles with, Man vs Nature, Nature vs Nurture, Evolution vs Science, Instinct vs Conditioning, Man vs Self, Hero vs Villain are all embodied by the struggle between the Samurai and the Berserker. It is the external manifestation of all the characters internal conflicts, and the Berserker being better and Wolverine still refusing to give in, is an - if not the - essential aspect of his character. Wolverine struggles to control the Berserker because it makes him too good, not because it makes him sloppy. The character's struggle to control the beast in spite of the fact that it makes him better in every conceivable way, is paramount to the character. Now, there are obviously a few isolated cases where certain writers didn't understand the character and implied otherwise, but that can be said about about virtually every aspect, of every character in all of comicdom. Just look at Claremont, he has written extreme character contradictions of his own writing. He has had Rogue steal Colossus' powers while in Organic Steel form several times, but he has also has Colossus be immune to Rogue's powers so that the two of them could make out. Contradictions happen from time to time.
Durge uses guns and a bola. Not exactly a devastatingly powerful arsenal. He also has some wrist mounted shields for blocking light sabers. I'd take Wolverine's Adamantium claws any day of the week. Durge beat Jedi because he was faster, stronger, he had a healing factor and was stealthy enough to get the drop on them. Wolverine is at least the equal of Durge in every way, and by most accounts superior. It's true Durge might be stronger, he did use a swoop bike as club in the Clone Wars cartoon... but that is really his only strength feat, he didn't do much strength wise in the comics. Either way Wolverine has used a tree trunk as a club so he has comparable strength feats regardless. Even if limit our selves to using Wolverine's most tame healing factor feats, he still has a far superior healing factor.
"Guns" can be elaborated a great deal. He had different kinds of guns, a flamethrower, dart launcher, chain, and more. And his healing factor functions an entirely different way than Wolverine's. His species is immune to pain and EXTREMELY difficult to damage. Wolverine can be damaged easily, but eventually repair. A lightsaber stab has 0 effect on Durge. The same cannot be said for Wolverine.
Regardless, Darth Maul wins and this is a duplicate thread.
depends on who does what first IMO. if logan can close the gap between them and manage a killing strike(which is the only attack a berserk wolverine does anyway) them he would win. but if maul manage to hold logan by the throat via the force and levitate him so wolverine will just suffocate, i think he'll win. or maul can just throw logan out the emperors window and watch him float into space.
by the way, can wolverine heal lightsaber cuts? i know sabers cauterize the wound when they pass thru the flesh, so can wolverine heal/regenerate a pretty much closed wound?
"depends on who does what first IMO. if logan can close the gap between them and manage a killing strike(which is the only attack a berserk wolverine does anyway) them he would win. but if maul manage to hold logan by the throat via the force and levitate him so wolverine will just suffocate, i think he'll win. or maul can just throw logan out the emperors window and watch him float into space. by the way, can wolverine heal lightsaber cuts? i know sabers cauterize the wound when they pass thru the flesh, so can wolverine heal/regenerate a pretty much closed wound? "
-happy sigh- this particular fight has sentimental value for me. About 2 years ago I saw that picture ThaMessenger07 posted and when I typed it into Google I found comicvine. -similar happy sigh- Oh yeah be the way I vote Wolverine in non-EU and if it is EU I have no opinion because I no nothing of EU.
That's basically how I recall a lot of their fights going. Wolverine can't fight Sabretooth beast to beast. He can fight him beast to man. I get your point about comic inconsistencies, but I don't think this is one of them. The whole point of he and Sabretooth being mortal enemies is to show the dark side of Wolverine himself. Sabretooth is what he could be; their fights show the added power of the beast, but also its limitations when faced with skill and discipline, especially when you consider that Sabretooth is a much larger and stronger person than Wolverine.
I do not believe this even necessarily contradicts the scan you posted earlier (although I haven't read that whole issue, so maybe some specifics were mentioned on other pages I'm not aware of). They are comparing him to a berserk ape, but that doesn't actually mean Wolverine himself has gone full-blown berserker. A way of thinking about this could be saying that Wolverine's beast goes up to 11 (which I guess would mean Sabretooth's has to go to at least 12). He has lived with his beast for a long time, and learned to focus it such that he normally fights in a state that would, to most other animals, be complete frothing lunacy, while he himself remains focused and in control. I would not call this being in a berserk fury for him though; the basic definition of the word is contradictory to self-control and discipline.
I also frankly think it would be a disservice to the character to suggest that's what was going on in that scan. It has been made pretty clear that Wolverine doesn't like embracing that side of himself, and has actually put a huge amount of work into reigning it in. The idea that he would immediately slip into full-blown feral mode just for a danger room test sequence doesn't feel right. He should not be so easily provoked, or so willing to just turn it on and off for laughs.
And yes, to be fair, Wolverine did lose that fight to Sabretooth, but that was because Sabretooth got the adamantium augmentation.
@ThaMessenger07 said:
" @Decoy Elite: Instinct Doesn't= Skill it is Superior to skill. That is the reason a Martial Artist trains to make the skill Instinctive.
No, I do not believe this at all. I think you are essentially confusing two different ideas of what "instinct" is. What martial artists do could more properly be referred to as "muscle memory." Yes, you can call it instinct, because it involves your body automatically reacting certain ways to certain stimuli, but it isn't the same as natural or animal instinct, and if you're going to compare them, then it's important to make the distinction. The whole training process is basically designed to destroy someone's natural combat instincts (which are often terrible for fighting; it's amazing how many people can't even instinctively make a proper fist) and replace them with better, man-made ones.
Really, high level martial skill becomes instinctive the way any high level skill does. Even something like high level math skills can become instinctive if trained and practiced enough. That doesn't mean that completely shutting down their higher brain functions and putting them into an animal frenzy will make them even better mathematicians, and I sincerely doubt that any competent, high level martial arts practitioner or instructor would say different about fighting.
Log in to comment