Wolverine vs Batman (Hand to Hand)

Wolverine

Batman

Rules

I have a feeling this has been done before but a forum search nor a Google search helped at all. If there is a thread like this, I apologise in advance.

• In character
• Strictly hand to hand
• Both characters at the height of their skill
• Wolverine doesn't get his healing factor nor his adamantium
• Both combatants are fighting in nothing but sweat pants
• Fight is in a standard boxing ring
• Win via knock out, incapacitation, submission or kill.

Who wins and why?

I have to go with Wolverine because even without his healing factor and adamantium he still has claws, speed and strength on Batman.

@lady_liberty: Second rule: Strictly hand to hand

@monsterstomp: I read it.

@lady_liberty: Then why'd you mention his claws?

both know martial arts. ones typical fighting style however is to go in berserk. the others style varies and uses his brain to gauge his next move. BRUCE wins this.

hasnt this been done many times before in some form or another?

@monsterstomp: They're part of his hands ;-)

Actually I figured you'd included them in the battle.

@foreverevil: Wolverine rarely if ever goes berserk.

@willpayton: Yes, in some ways I believe, but I just wanted to revamp the thread with more clear rules in regards to who has more martial art skills.

No haha. If blades were included I would have called it "Close Quarter Combat".

And it has. A few times that I know of actually.

Going back through some of the others, I couldn't find one without the healing factor, ady, and the conditions being morals off.

Wolverine Wins...Fighting skills are about on par...and Wolverine has Superior Stats.

Wolverine. More experienced.

Batman is better at H2H. But Wolverine has the physicals.

No healing factor means those nerve strikes will count.......then again Logan probably knows them too. Hmm. Bruce has the reach advantage =D

But Logan presents a smaller target.. :D

Batman has better h2h feats.Wolverine without his powers are impressive, but against Bruce? He looses.

If this is standard 616 Wolverine who has fought without his healing factor (Not Paul Cornell's Wolverine who has "lost" his skill and is psychologically messed up without his healing factor) and retains his superhuman physicals, Wolverine takes the majority. I know most people on the Vine with superficial are going to say Logan is no way close to Bruce, but I'd say he's dead on par with him based on feats and training. He's learned every martial art on the planet (Including 28 forms of Kung Fu, kenjutsu, aikido, bujuitsu, etc.) from various masters. His hand to hand feats are also on par with Bruce's. He's lolstomped a fresh Captain America during Origins whole his healing factor was barely working due to exhaustion from fighting for days, dropped Shang Chi easily on three pages H2H, dropped Iron Fist H2H in New Avengers, beat down and killed his highly skilled son Daken when he stopped holding back in Rick Remender's Uncanny X-Force finale, etc. His pressure point dexterity is also on par with Batman's as he has been noted to know all the pressure points on both human and alien bodies, and has dropped Captain America and the 50+ tonner Kid Gladiator with nerve strikes.

Batman cannot outskill Wolverine here. Add in the fact that Wolverine is physically superior to Batman (He's strong enough to nonchalantly throw a 1,600 lb dumpster across an alley way and has moved fast enough to make Spider-Man think he's faster than him.) Logan should walk out with a 7/10 majority.

I firmly believe Wolverine takes a 7/10 majority here due to him being on par with Bruce skill wise and having superior physicals, but his experience isn't why I would back him in this fight. Experience has never essentially equated to skill in comics. Take Ra's Al Ghul for example. The man is over 600 years old by his own account, but his experience doesn't change the fact that his skill feats pale in comparison to fighting elites like Batman and Wolverine. While it makes logical sense that someone who is more experience will sport superior skill, that has never really been the case in comic books.

That's what I was mentioning in an earlier comment. Feats are taken way too literally here. I tend to believe that the 'Battle Forums' here put Characters in a realistic scenario where Characters are not hindered by things like plot or popularity.

Only reason as to why Ra's "skill feats pale in comparison to fighting elites like Batman and Wolverine" is because the plot demands it so. And when writers need, they show him as someone who practically invented Fencing and owns Tim handily.

I like to include a bit of logic in scenarios like this, even though it's a battle between fictional characters. For me, Logan's experience alone insures his victory over Wayne.

Heh, good explanation and I do see what you mean about experience actually playing a factor here when battles are not hindered by plot or other needs, and are judged with some logic. But you wouldn't back a featless fighter though just because he has more experience than another character who has a plethora of feats would you?

i gotta go with bruce he knows 127 martial arts

I will post a comment of mine from an other thread.

Some of my main gripes about the Battle Forums

Consider, yourself to be a warrior; one who has lived more countless centuries. Now to reach the status of a warrior, you have to be trained properly, completely just like the Roman Gladiators or Japanese Samurais. Now consider the fact that you've been fighting constantly for those countless centuries. Logic dictates, you'd be an extremely talented and dangerous fighter; much more so than someone who has been fighting for mere decades.

If you were someone like that, I'd consider you one of your Universe's best fighters. Hence, I consider Ares from Marvel to be one of Marvel Earth's best fighters; better than Logan or Cap. Why? Because of the simple fact that he has been doing it for a lot longer than any of them.

But the sad thing here, is that feats are taken way too literally. Also, only Asian Martial-Arts are considered to be legitimate fighting styles and only the people who practice Asian Styles are considered talented fighters here.

Why? Aren't sword fighting, practiced by the Spartans or the Roman army a fighting style and in conjunction, a Martial Art? Aren't German Grappling Art and also Greco-Roman Wrestling considered Martial Arts? Also the same goes for Fencing and other styles?

A Martial Artist is someone who practices and has achieved mastery in any or more fighting disciplines. It doesn't mean that it only has to be Asian. I find that here in the Vine, only Asian Martial Arts are considered to be Martial Arts which is bulls**t.

I've studied Tae Kwon Do under my father so this is by no means an unintelligent judgement.

This is just the tip of the ice-berg.

Bruce takes advantage of his size n strength

@darkazrael999:

But the sad thing here, is that feats are taken way too literally. Also, only Asian Martial-Arts are considered to be legitimate fighting styles and only the people who practice Asian Styles are considered talented fighters here.

That pretty much is due to the fact that the overwhelming majority of the Vine has absolutely no knowledge of the art of fighting. Round up everyone here and you'd see that this place is filled with skinny toothpicks who's best experience with fighting is watching Bruce Lee or getting into a short fist fight when they were a kid. These same people will be the same ones to say that knowing more martial arts equates to being more skilled when being a skilled fighter is really about developing an effective fighting style that allows you to adapt to what your opponent brings to the table whether that fighting styles incorporates Asian, African, European, etc. techniques. Add in the fact that Asian martials arts and culture are so popular in the world, it's easy to see why most people consider Asian martial arts to be the only legitimate fighting systems, thus making those who've mastered Asian martial arts superior to other fighters in their eyes.

#19 Edited by Wolverine08 (9312 posts) - 1 hour, 40 minutes ago - Show Bio

If this is standard 616 Wolverine who has fought without his healing factor (Not Paul Cornell's Wolverine who has "lost" his skill and is psychologically messed up without his healing factor) and retains his superhuman physicals, Wolverine takes the majority. I know most people on the Vine with superficial are going to say Logan is no way close to Bruce, but I'd say he's dead on par with him based on feats and training. He's learned every martial art on the planet (Including 28 forms of Kung Fu, kenjutsu, aikido, bujuitsu, etc.) from various masters. His hand to hand feats are also on par with Bruce's. He's lolstomped a fresh Captain America during Origins whole his healing factor was barely working due to exhaustion from fighting for days, dropped Shang Chi easily on three pages H2H, dropped Iron Fist H2H in New Avengers, beat down and killed his highly skilled son Daken when he stopped holding back in Rick Remender's Uncanny X-Force finale, etc. His pressure point dexterity is also on par with Batman's as he has been noted to know all the pressure points on both human and alien bodies, and has dropped Captain America and the 50+ tonner Kid Gladiator with nerve strikes.

Batman cannot outskill Wolverine here. Add in the fact that Wolverine is physically superior to Batman (He's strong enough to nonchalantly throw a 1,600 lb dumpster across an alley way and moved fast enough to make Spider-Man think he's faster than him) Logan should walk out with a 7/10 majority.

THIS

Exactly. Not everyone is a skinny toothpick, though. A lot of people here are in the Police or Army or Fire-fighters and going by the 'real-life pic thread', quite a lot of athletes.

Anyway, you're right. My dad always taught me that knowing 'Katas' and being able to hit stationary targets doesn't mean that you're a good fighter. Experience and adaptability counts a lot.

Like I said, a Martial Artist is someone who practices and has achieved mastery in any or more fighting disciplines.
It can be anything from Roman Gladiatorial styles to Fencing to Wrestling to Wing-Chun Kung-Fu. If you have achieved mastery in any fighting style, you're a great fighter in my book.

Just being acrobatic and being able to do quadruple-somersaults doesn't mean only that guy is a good Martial Artist.

@darkazrael999:

Everybody is a skinny toothpick compared to me :D Agreed about you being skilled regardless of where the fighting style you excel in originated from. Skill is skill.

Of course, Mr. Short-and-Stabby. :D

@wolverine08: IMO feats >>>>>> experience simply because feats can be proven. Wolverine has feats that put him on par with Bruce. But what about Champion Elder of the universe or Gamora or most asgardians or Olympians? They have been fighting for millennium but have no on panel feats. They should be better then Bruce or Logan but how do you prove it without feats? Look at nearly any physical activity from basketball to tennis to boxing. Mike Tyson beat opponents who were older and more experienced them him. Tiger Woods does the same.

@pooty:

I do agree with you despite me thinking that experience can be a good advantage in a fight. While it is good to be experienced, we can't say that a featless character beats a character with solid history and a plethora of feats just because they are more experienced. That kind of thinking is just theoretical really.

Like I said,

Consider, yourself to be a warrior; one who has lived more countless centuries. Now to reach the status of a warrior, you have to be trained properly, completely just like the Roman Gladiators or Japanese Samurais. Now consider the fact that you've been fighting constantly for those countless centuries. Logic dictates, you'd be an extremely talented and dangerous fighter; much more so than someone who has been fighting for mere decades.

If you were someone like that, I'd consider you one of your Universe's best fighters. Hence, I consider Ares from Marvel to be one of Marvel Earth's best fighters; better than Logan or Cap. Why? Because of the simple fact that he has been doing it for a lot longer than any of them.

But the sad thing here, is that feats are taken way too literally. I tend to believe that the 'Battle Forums' here put Characters in a realistic scenario where Characters are not hindered by things like plot or popularity. Only reason as to why Ra's "skill feats pale in comparison to fighting elites like Batman" is because the plot demands it so. And when writers need, they show him as someone who practically invented Fencing and owns Tim handily.

Also, only Asian Martial-Arts are considered to be legitimate fighting styles and only the people who practice Asian Styles are considered talented fighters here.

Why? Aren't sword fighting, practiced by the Spartans or the Roman army a fighting style and in conjunction, a Martial Art? Aren't German Grappling Art and also Greco-Roman Wrestling considered Martial Arts? Also the same goes for Fencing and other styles?

A Martial Artist is someone who practices and has achieved mastery in any or more fighting disciplines. It doesn't mean that it only has to be Asian. I find that here in the Vine, only Asian Martial Arts are considered to be Martial Arts which is bulls**t.

I've studied Tae Kwon Do under my father so this is by no means an unintelligent judgement.

@darkazrael999: @wolverine08: In my area there are kids younger then me but they are my size. I feel I can beat them in a fight due to my experience. So I understand your point. But just because I believe it doesn't mean the kid believes it. He may think he can beat me. So without actually fighting, we can only go by who we have beaten, how we beat them etc. I can't expect him to consider me superior just because I've been doing it longer. Feats help prove your case. Other forms of combat should get more recognition around here. But most are geeks not fighters

Same arguments used over and over and over. More experienced" means nothing without the feats to back it up. Wolverine was never stated to have learned so much and mastered martial arts like Batman. This is the same arguments used in the Wolverine vs Deathstroke battles.

Wolverine has been stated to know all the world's martial arts (Including 28 forms of kung fu). He's also been shown on panel to know all the pressure points on human and alien bodies. He also has a plethora of battle feats that put him on par with Batman. Logan has a multitude of things that allow for a reasonable argument for him being as skilled as Batman to be made. And Deathstroke isn't as skilled as either Batman or Wolverine.

I find basing fighting on lifespan, at least in comics, to be rather futile. By that logic, Hercules, Ares, and Thor SHOULD be some of the best fighters in Marvel, yet they aren't. A lot of their lifespan is just training in set styles of fighting and relying on physical statistics. If they were such good fighters, they shouldn't be having trouble with some of the opponents they do. Hulk being a prime example. He was already able to give them good fights in the past just because he could physically hang with them, yet despite them fighting for centuries, they were never able to really garner a huge edge over him. Their supposed skill never really mattered. Thing or She-Hulk haven't been fighting as long as Namor, yet they have both been able to give him close fights or beat him. Hell, She-Hulk did it twice as a class 75 just because she was a better fighter. Logan has been alive longer than Daken, Gorgon, Captain America, Daredevil, Iron Fist, Black Panther etc, yet he flat out said Daken was better than him at one point. He said it was useless trying to match skill with the Gorgon. Cap has held him off before and at one point was said to have given him the beating of his life back in the army days. Daredevil has held him off. Iron Fist has given good fights. T'Challa has been said to have mastered every fighting style there is, yet Wolverine doesn't have a clean win over him either. Now aside from Gorgon, Fist, and maybe T'Challa, Wolverine is slightly more skilled. Slightly being the keyword. In real life experience does play a big role in fights, but in comics it doesn't matter much.

@patrat18: I think feats >>>>>> statements. Wolverine may not have been stated to have learned what Batman knows. but wolverines on panel feats make him a rival of Batmans. Champion of the universe has been stated to have mastered fightings styles of multiple galaxies but he doesn't have feats to support that

Another good counterpoint which I definitely agree with. Even though Logan has been around longer than Bruce, he's been beaten by people who only have 2 or 3 decades worth of combat training under their belt such as Daredevil, Captain America, Iron Fist and T'Challa. With the exception of Fist and T'Challa, I'm of the mind that Batman is more skilled than the other two and has the feats to prove it. Just like I feel he has the on panel feats to edge out in skill to Wolverine. Without his claws or healing factor, I see it as Bruce's fight to take a slight majority on. 6.5-7/10

Wolverine stomps.

@lvenger:

What feats do you think Bruce has that outdo Logan's if I may ask?

Logan ftw in a close one

@wolverine08: First off, the disc he made for Cassandra Cain where he shows knowledge of all 127 major styles of fighting

Secondly, managing to last more than 2 minutes against the Sensei, someone with century's worth of martial arts knowledge who'd already crippled him in the fight. Also, holding his own against Shiva in Death of the Family (he can't honestly beat her IMO), defeating students of fellow teachers who were rivals/equals to Bruce under whichever master they both studied and adapting to Karate Kid's style in their second fight. Those sorts of feats are what put Bruce above Logan in skill for me. Bruce has had way more screen time than Logan and has more on panel feats that allow him to win in a straight H2H contest in my view.

@lvenger:

First off, the disc he made for Cassandra Cain where he shows knowledge of all 127 major styles of fighting

Wolverine has been noted in multiple official hand guides to have mastered all the world's fighting styles, and has on panel confirmation of having mastered 28 forms of kung fu along with knowing kenjutsu, aikido, and bujuitsu. He most likely knows just as many martial arts as Bruce (Though feats are ultimately more important than number of martial arts mastered.)

Secondly, managing to last more than 2 minutes against the Sensei, someone with century's worth of martial arts knowledge who'd already crippled him in the fight.

I think Wolverine being able to beat Iron Fist (A guy who knows all the Earth's martial arts, completely mastered the fighting styles in the ancient mystic Book of Iron Fist, is skilled enough to fight without thinking and while meditating, knows countless nerve strikes, etc.) equates that feat really.

Bruce has had way more screen time than Logan

Absolutely not. Bruce has used his skill more consistently than Logan due to Wolverine slacking off and not using his skill against fodder, etc. but he easily matches Bruce in terms of wins/stalemates against top tier fighters.

Exactly and feats are what Bruce has over Logan in the fighting skills department. Which is my ultimate point really. Bruce has more showings to prove he knows every fighting style whereas Logan uses his claws and beserk fighting sometimes under misguided writers that it's easy to forget he's an exceptionally skilled fighter too.

As I've mentioned before, I have MASSIVE issues with that fight. For one, Iron Fist wasn't punching at all in that fight which handicapped him massively. Secondly, Bendis is a hack of a writer and downplayed Iron Fist's skills massively in that fight. Wolverine should not have won so easily. Thirdly, Squirrel Girl then came and owned Logan's ass. I suppose by that logic, Squirrel Girl is the greatest fighter on the 616 Earth? Sorry to damage your interpretation of that instance but that fight is a highly unreliable, non credible sparring match between Wolverine and Logan. Blame Bendis for that I'm afraid.

Only when he uses it in conjunction with his claws and healing factor. And let's not forget Captain America, Wolverine, Winter Soldier, Black Panther and other combatants who've given Logan a massively hard time when they only have 2 or 3 decades worth of fighting experience on them. The same applies to Batman who in this fight would be able to take an edge thanks to no claws or healing factor. He's beaten low tier superhumans before.

Wolverine is still superior having about 1.5 to 2 ton strength. He is a mutant after all. I believe he might have Bruce outdone physically, and because they're so close in skill Wolverine's stats give him the edge.

@wolverine08 I'm sorry, but when did Wolverine beat Iron Fist?

To beat my friend Wolverine08 to the punch, he's talking about this instance. I have some big problems with this instance myself. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this given that you're a big Iron Fist fan and knowledgeable expert.

Oh and for the record, Squirrel Girl then beats Wolverine. Make of that what you will.

It was in a sparring match in New Avengers. Logan wasn't allowed to use his claws, and Iron Fist was not allowed to use his Chi.

@lvenger: I actually knew Wolverine08 was going to go there. The reasons why I discredit any relevancy in that fight as a showing.

1. It wasn't a fight. It was a spar.

2. They agreed to no claws and no chi. That doesn't mean that Wolverine's healing factor or adamantium skeleton wasn't still active. This might have been relevant if the OP didn't take his healing factor and adamantium away.

@lvenger:

As I've mentioned before, I have MASSIVE issues with that fight. For one, Iron Fist wasn't punching at all in that fight which handicapped him massively. Secondly, Bendis is a hack of a writer and downplayed Iron Fist's skills massively in that fight. Wolverine should not have won so easily. Thirdly, Squirrel Girl then came and owned Logan's ass. I suppose by that logic, Squirrel Girl is the greatest fighter on the 616 Earth? Sorry to damage your interpretation of that instance but that fight is a highly unreliable, non credible sparring match between Wolverine and Logan. Blame Bendis for that I'm afraid.

Have you actually read the fight before? Iron Fist came close to landing two close fisted punches on Wolverine. He wasn't really handicapped. Whether or not Bendis is a "hack" is a completely subjective and should not be your reasoning for why the fight is inconsequential. I am personally not a fan of Grant Morrison and his work. Would you take me seriously if I said that "Morrison is a HACKKKKKK! Batman benching 1,000lbs under Morrison's pen is just bad writing!"? I don't think so. And I don't know if you know what Squirrel Girl does, but what Bendis had her do is consistent with her character. She comes out of no where and beats people out of here league. She's done it to Doctor Doom and Thanos. She's a joke character who beats up dangerous people out of her league for reader's laughs and giggles. Simple as that my friend.

Only when he uses it in conjunction with his claws and healing factor. And let's not forget Captain America, Wolverine, Winter Soldier, Black Panther and other combatants who've given Logan a massively hard time when they only have 2 or 3 decades worth of fighting experience on them. The same applies to Batman who in this fight would be able to take an edge thanks to no claws or healing factor. He's beaten low tier superhumans before.

Captain America gives Logan a massively hard time? Uh, no. You mean like when Wolverine completely manhandled him in Origins despite the fact that Captain America was completely fresh and had the advantage of surprise while Logan was completely exhausted from fighting for days and as a result had his healing factor nerfed to the point where he couldn't even simply heal damaged ligaments, and while he was unable to use his claws because Cap destroyed them making have to rely on his H2H skill alone and avoided several kill shots he had on Steve? Or are you referring to the time Steve couldn't beat a Wolverine who was just running around with the mind of a werewolf? Or are you mentioning the time when Wolverine was holding an obvious edge on Captain America during their fight in Avengers X-Men despite him avoiding the chance to cut Steve's arm off or disembowel him? Look at all those hard times Steve gave Logan. Black Panther doesn't give Wolverine a hard time. They had a skirmish during the 70s or 80s where Logan pinned T'Challa down (With Black Panther commenting on his strength.), and Panther threw him off. Also, why do you mention Black Panther and Captain America having only 2 to 3 decades of experience when you just agreed with God Spawn that experience tends to be inconsequential in a fight. Batman beats superhuman opponents? Wolverine dropped the 5+ tonner Sabreooth 6 times alone in the past two years through skill, and beat the class 70 Grey Hulk. Wolverine has also beaten a Creed who had enhanced strength and an adamantium skeleton while he was sans healing factor in Wolverine vol 2 #175 (He died from injuries during the fight though.)