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#1 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine with no Healing Factor vs Ultimate Captain America with only his Shield.

  • Death or KO.
  • Battle in a 100 by 100 foot cage.
  • Start 20 feet away.

Who wins?

#2 Posted by Wolverine08 (42289 posts) - - Show Bio

Ultimate Captain America wins. Also, this is spite and you know it Cadence. Wolverine has better skill feats and training, but Ultimate Cap's physicals are far too greater than his for him to win.

@god_spawn @vance_astro

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#3 Posted by Vance Astro (91234 posts) - - Show Bio

Ultimate Captain America wins. Also, this is spite and you know it Cadence. Wolverine has better skill feats and training, but Ultimate Cap's physicals are far too greater than his for him to win.

@god_spawn @vance_astro

This isn't spite at all...

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#4 Posted by those_eyes (6716 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap For the win!!!!!!!!!!

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#5 Edited by CF12793 (2992 posts) - - Show Bio

Does Wolverine have use of his claws? If so I think he pulls a victory here. Ultimate Cap is strong and a good fighter, but Wolverine is also in the superhuman range in strength and a way better fighter then Ult. Cap, who is stated to be not on the same level in fighting as 616 Cap is. Obviously Cap's blows are going to hurt Wolverine, but if Wolverine uses his speed and agility, dodging Cap's blows shouldn't be hard. The man has dodged hits from Spider-Man and other ultra fast characters before, if Logan knows one blow from Cap is going to KO him or atleast weaken him severely, he'll play up his defense. The shield and Cap's overall durability is going to be hard to get past at first, but if Logan uses pressure points which he knows how to use, he could drop Cap with a couple of moves (if he happens to be that lucky.)

I'm going to say Wolverine takes it 6/10.

#6 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Ultimate Captain America wins. Also, this is spite and you know it Cadence. Wolverine has better skill feats and training, but Ultimate Cap's physicals are far too greater than his for him to win.

@god_spawn @vance_astro

Yet you say Wolverine is more 2-3 toner, has speed to keep up with Spider Man, and still has his adamantium Skeleton. If I really wanted spite, I give Cap his guns and grenades. I only gave him his shield. Quit being obnoxious and hypocritical.

I guarantee people can make arguments for either side. Nothing spite about this. Quit crying.

#7 Posted by dondave (37445 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine beats him. Ult Cap's skills showing are few and far between and are against featless characters.

#8 Posted by Wolverine08 (42289 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro:

Wolverine can't compete with Ultimate Captain America at all.

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#9 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Ultimate Captain America wins. Also, this is spite and you know it Cadence. Wolverine has better skill feats and training, but Ultimate Cap's physicals are far too greater than his for him to win.

Wow, look at all the Wolverine wins here in this thread already. Quit being a baby about things.

#10 Posted by Wolverine08 (42289 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

Ultimate Captain America wins. Also, this is spite and you know it Cadence. Wolverine has better skill feats and training, but Ultimate Cap's physicals are far too greater than his for him to win.

Wow, look at all the Wolverine wins here in this thread already. Quit being a baby about things.

If you are using current Wolverine, then it is spite.

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#11 Posted by Vance Astro (91234 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

Yet you say Wolverine is more 2-3 toner, has speed to keep up with Spider Man, and still has his adamantium Skeleton. If I really wanted spite, I give Cap his guns and grenades. I only gave him his shield. Quit being obnoxious and hypocritical.

I guarantee people can make arguments for either side. Nothing spite about this. Quit crying.

The thing that MIGHT make this a mismatch is that I don't think someone without healing factor can actually have claws. He would possibly lose alot of blood.

Moderator
#12 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro said:

@cadencev2 said:

Yet you say Wolverine is more 2-3 toner, has speed to keep up with Spider Man, and still has his adamantium Skeleton. If I really wanted spite, I give Cap his guns and grenades. I only gave him his shield. Quit being obnoxious and hypocritical.

I guarantee people can make arguments for either side. Nothing spite about this. Quit crying.

The thing that MIGHT make this a mismatch is that I don't think someone without healing factor can actually have claws. He would possibly lose alot of blood.

I see why not. Ultimate Cable (Wolverine with no HF) popped his claws all the time and though it hurt, he never loss much blood.

#13 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08 said:

Ultimate Captain America wins. Also, this is spite and you know it Cadence. Wolverine has better skill feats and training, but Ultimate Cap's physicals are far too greater than his for him to win.

Wow, look at all the Wolverine wins here in this thread already. Quit being a baby about things.

If you are using current Wolverine, then it is spite.

Quit crying! People already believe Wolvie wins the majority, not Spite then is it!

#14 Posted by Wolverine08 (42289 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08 said:

Ultimate Captain America wins. Also, this is spite and you know it Cadence. Wolverine has better skill feats and training, but Ultimate Cap's physicals are far too greater than his for him to win.

Wow, look at all the Wolverine wins here in this thread already. Quit being a baby about things.

If you are using current Wolverine, then it is spite.

Quit crying! People already believe Wolvie wins the majority, not Spite then is it!

Are you using current Logan?

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#15 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08 said:

Ultimate Captain America wins. Also, this is spite and you know it Cadence. Wolverine has better skill feats and training, but Ultimate Cap's physicals are far too greater than his for him to win.

Wow, look at all the Wolverine wins here in this thread already. Quit being a baby about things.

If you are using current Wolverine, then it is spite.

Quit crying! People already believe Wolvie wins the majority, not Spite then is it!

Are you using current Logan?

Why does it matter?

#16 Posted by Wolverine08 (42289 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08 said:

Ultimate Captain America wins. Also, this is spite and you know it Cadence. Wolverine has better skill feats and training, but Ultimate Cap's physicals are far too greater than his for him to win.

Wow, look at all the Wolverine wins here in this thread already. Quit being a baby about things.

If you are using current Wolverine, then it is spite.

Quit crying! People already believe Wolvie wins the majority, not Spite then is it!

Are you using current Logan?

Why does it matter?

He's lost his healing factor and all of his skill, and is having psychological problems resulting from the loss of his healing factor.

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#17 Posted by Vance Astro (91234 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

I see why not. Ultimate Cable (Wolverine with no HF) popped his claws all the time and though it hurt, he never loss much blood.

Old Man Logan bled really bad when he hadn't popped his claws for 50 years. I would assume it's because in his old age, his healing factor wasn't what it used to be, and in that case having no healing factor at all would probably have a worse result.

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#18 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio
#19 Posted by nickzambuto (13682 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: it's non canon though right.

SO ARE ULTIMATE COMICS AND YOU USED CABLE AS AN EXAMPLE!

#20 Posted by Vance Astro (91234 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio

Let the hate flow through you.

#22 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@cadencev2 said:

@vance_astro: it's non canon though right.

SO ARE ULTIMATE COMICS AND YOU USED CABLE AS AN EXAMPLE!

LMFAO....

In my defense you two, Old Logan was EATEN BY HULK AND HIS HEALING FACTOR PUT HIM BACK TOGETHER!!!!!

So LMAO back at ya both :P

#23 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

He's lost his healing factor and all of his skill, and is having psychological problems resulting from the loss of his healing factor.

I see, yet when I bring this argument up of Wolverine rarely relying on skill and more on his healing factor.... every Wolverine fan screams "BS" at the top of their lungs because Wolverine has fought fine with no Healing Factor before. What is the word I am looking for now, oh yeah, Inconsistent.

#24 Edited by jashro44 (21782 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

Yet you say Wolverine is more 2-3 toner, has speed to keep up with Spider Man, and still has his adamantium Skeleton. If I really wanted spite, I give Cap his guns and grenades. I only gave him his shield. Quit being obnoxious and hypocritical.

I guarantee people can make arguments for either side. Nothing spite about this. Quit crying.

The thing that MIGHT make this a mismatch is that I don't think someone without healing factor can actually have claws. He would possibly lose alot of blood.

He's been popping his claws in killable. He bleeds but it doesn't seem to get out of control.

All though if we are basing this on killable wolverine this is a mismatch.

@wolverine08 said:

He's lost his healing factor and all of his skill, and is having psychological problems resulting from the loss of his healing factor.

I see, yet when I bring this argument up of Wolverine rarely relying on skill and more on his healing factor.... every Wolverine fan screams "BS" at the top of their lungs because Wolverine has fought fine with no Healing Factor before. What is the word I am looking for now, oh yeah, Inconsistent.

We don't scream PIS because you are saying that wolverine relies on his healing factor....Its the showings you use to support that. You use things like Garth Ennis and a few other showings which are just really low showings. There is evidence to support that argument that Logan does lack discipline but you make it sound like Logan has no skills at all.

#25 Posted by Wolverine08 (42289 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

He's lost his healing factor and all of his skill, and is having psychological problems resulting from the loss of his healing factor.

I see, yet when I bring this argument up of Wolverine rarely relying on skill and more on his healing factor.... every Wolverine fan screams "BS" at the top of their lungs because Wolverine has fought fine with no Healing Factor before. What is the word I am looking for now, oh yeah, Inconsistent.

He hasfought without the healing factor before. He doesn't really rely on the healing factor, it's just been noted in stories like Manifest Destiny that he lacks discipline with applying his martial art skill. With Killable, it's seems the psychological trauma from the seemingly permanent loss of his healing factor has somehow literally forget his whole skill for some reason. The writer Paul Cornell hasn't explained everything and the story arc isn't done yet, so we'll just have to wait and see. I ask you, if you hate Logan's supposed inconsistency, we do you even bother to make battles with him and get into arguments with people who know him?

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#26 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08 said:

He's lost his healing factor and all of his skill, and is having psychological problems resulting from the loss of his healing factor.

I see, yet when I bring this argument up of Wolverine rarely relying on skill and more on his healing factor.... every Wolverine fan screams "BS" at the top of their lungs because Wolverine has fought fine with no Healing Factor before. What is the word I am looking for now, oh yeah, Inconsistent.

He hasfought without the healing factor before. He doesn't really rely on the healing factor, it's just been noted in stories like Manifest Destiny that he lacks discipline with applying his martial art skill. With Killable, it's seems the psychological trauma from the seemingly permanent loss of his healing factor has somehow literally forget his whole skill for some reason. The writer Paul Cornell hasn't explained everything and the story arc isn't done yet, so we'll just have to wait and see. I ask you, if you hate Logan's supposed inconsistency, we do you even bother to make battles with him and get into arguments with people who know him?

People make very valid arguments for Wolverine winning and I have no problem with that. Have I called anyone, out of the many on here, out on Wolverine losing this fight? I like to see peoples take.

@jashro44 said:

@vance_astro said:

@cadencev2 said:

Yet you say Wolverine is more 2-3 toner, has speed to keep up with Spider Man, and still has his adamantium Skeleton. If I really wanted spite, I give Cap his guns and grenades. I only gave him his shield. Quit being obnoxious and hypocritical.

I guarantee people can make arguments for either side. Nothing spite about this. Quit crying.

The thing that MIGHT make this a mismatch is that I don't think someone without healing factor can actually have claws. He would possibly lose alot of blood.

He's been popping his claws in killable. He bleeds but it doesn't seem to get out of control.

All though if we are basing this on killable wolverine this is a mismatch.

Makes sense.

We don't scream PIS because you are saying that wolverine relies on his healing factor....Its the showings you use to support that. You use things like Garth Ennis and a few other showings which are just really low showings. There is evidence to support that argument that Logan does lack discipline but you make it sound like Logan has no skills at all.

I think logan is very skilled, he always was in the Uncanny X-Men Comic I have from his first hook up on the team roster till late 90s. Wolverine is a very skilled fighter. I just do not believe the hype of being better than Iorn fist (That Duel in New Avengers was such BS), Daredevil, or Shang Chi. I think he is more Electra level IMO.

#27 Posted by Wolverine08 (42289 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

think logan is very skilled, he always was in the Uncanny X-Men Comic I have from his first hook up on the team roster till late 90s. Wolverine is a very skilled fighter. I just do not believe the hype of being better than Iorn fist (That Duel in New Avengers was such BS), Daredevil, or Shang Chi. I think he is more Electra level IMO.

Elektra isn't even a hardcore top tier fighter really. Maybe a 5/7 in fighting skill at best. You can believe what you want, but Wolverine's feats speak for themselves.

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#28 Edited by God_Spawn (37891 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@vance_astro said:

@cadencev2 said:

Yet you say Wolverine is more 2-3 toner, has speed to keep up with Spider Man, and still has his adamantium Skeleton. If I really wanted spite, I give Cap his guns and grenades. I only gave him his shield. Quit being obnoxious and hypocritical.

I guarantee people can make arguments for either side. Nothing spite about this. Quit crying.

The thing that MIGHT make this a mismatch is that I don't think someone without healing factor can actually have claws. He would possibly lose alot of blood.

He's been popping his claws in killable. He bleeds but it doesn't seem to get out of control.

All though if we are basing this on killable wolverine this is a mismatch.

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08 said:

He's lost his healing factor and all of his skill, and is having psychological problems resulting from the loss of his healing factor.

I see, yet when I bring this argument up of Wolverine rarely relying on skill and more on his healing factor.... every Wolverine fan screams "BS" at the top of their lungs because Wolverine has fought fine with no Healing Factor before. What is the word I am looking for now, oh yeah, Inconsistent.

We don't scream PIS because you are saying that wolverine relies on his healing factor....Its the showings you use to support that. You use things like Garth Ennis and a few other showings which are just really low showings. There is evidence to support that argument that Logan does lack discipline but you make it sound like Logan has no skills at all.

As far as Killable goes, Logan has his hands and knuckles bandaged like a boxer, so it soaks up the blood. Get rid of those, he'd be a little worse off.

Moderator
#29 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

think logan is very skilled, he always was in the Uncanny X-Men Comic I have from his first hook up on the team roster till late 90s. Wolverine is a very skilled fighter. I just do not believe the hype of being better than Iorn fist (That Duel in New Avengers was such BS), Daredevil, or Shang Chi. I think he is more Electra level IMO.

Elektra isn't even a hardcore top tier fighter really. Maybe a 5/7 in fighting skill at best. You can believe what you want, but Wolverine's feats speak for themselves.

His inconsistent feats speak plenty. Sometimes he is better than Iron Fist or Shang chi, most times he can barely get pass berserk hack and slash while tanking damage like he has no consequences in life.

#30 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: How did Logan fight when he lost his Healing Factor last time? Did he pop claws then at all? I know this is not the first time he lost it.

#31 Edited by Wolverine08 (42289 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2:

think logan is very skilled, he always was in the Uncanny X-Men Comic I have from his first hook up on the team roster till late 90s. Wolverine is a very skilled fighter. I just do not believe the hype of being better than Iorn fist (That Duel in New Avengers was such BS), Daredevil, or Shang Chi. I think he is more Electra level IMO.

Elektra isn't even a hardcore top tier fighter really. Maybe a 5/7 in fighting skill at best. You can believe what you want, but Wolverine's feats speak for themselves.

His inconsistent feats speak plenty. Sometimes he is better than Iron Fist or Shang chi, most times he can barely get pass berserk hack and slash while tanking damage like he has no consequences in life.

Jeez Cadence, Manifest Destiny already explained this down to the last detail for people like you who have this question. Go read it. It has been explained that Wolverine has a tendency to slack off from applying his martial art skill and just hacks and slashes (As his Master Po angrily noted). When he really gets disciplined and applies his skill, he's one of the best. Lastly, I agree that Wolverine is better than Shang Chi, but I don't know why people take that New Avengers fight as him being "better" than Iron Fist. It was just a sparring match and both blatantly noted that they weren't giving their all. What that feat shows is that Wolverine is in Iron Fist's league when it's comes to martial art skill not that he is straight up better than him. Nothing more and nothing less.

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#32 Edited by God_Spawn (37891 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: On average whenever he does lose his healing factor, he falls back on his MA ability because he knows he can't heal. This also makes him more inclined to dodge. When he first discovered his bone claws, he was shown bleeding out heavily. I think eventually it got more under control despite his HF still being burnt out. I recall him fighting Deadpool without his ady or healing factor, and Logan was getting solid shots on Wade throughout the beginning of the fight. Deadpool also makes reference to the fact Wolverine has no healing factor, he ends up getting a solid blow on Wolverine, and then he stabs him. Logan is left for dead, but his HF starts to kick back in after the fight.

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#33 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

Jeez Cadence, Manifest Destiny already explained this down to the last detail for people like you who have this question. Go read it. It has been explained that Wolverine has a tendency to slack off from applying his martial art skill and just hacks and slashes (As his Master Po angrily noted). When he really gets disciplined and applies his skill, he's one of the best. Lastly, I agree that Wolverine is better than Shang Chi, but I don't know why people take that New Avengers fight as him being "better" than Iron Fist. It was just a sparring match and both blatantly noted that they weren't giving their all. What that feat shows is that Wolverine is in Iron Fist's league when it's comes to martial art skill not that he is straight up better than him. Nothing more and nothing less.

I can understand the argument of Wolverine knowing the skills to be awesome and such, but if he regularly in character does not apply himself, which he rarely does, then he is not the top rank of skill. Skill is more than knowledge, it is applying it. Skills you do not apply end up like a knife left in a drawer. Rusting over time. He simply is not the top tier of skill if he rarely applies it in the 1000s of comics he has.

Also Iron Fist was at a total disadvantage in the sparring. Iron Fist with no chi powers vs Wolverine who still has his Adamantium Skeleton and Healing Factor. How could IF in any conceivable way win that Sparring? Its not proof of Wolverine on his skill level at all. He was going to win no matter how it went down which is why I hated the feat in the first place.

#34 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@cadencev2: On average whenever he does lose his healing factor, he falls back on his MA ability because he knows he can't heal. This also makes him more inclined to dodge. When he first discovered his bone claws, he was shown bleeding out heavily. I think eventually it got more under control despite his HF still being burnt out. I recall him fighting Deadpool without his ady or healing factor, and Logan was getting solid shots on Wade throughout the beginning of the fight. Deadpool also makes reference to the fact Wolverine has no healing factor, he ends up getting a solid blow on Wolverine, and then he stabs him. Logan is left for dead, but his HF starts to kick back in after the fight.

Holy crap, is that the Deadpool fight where Logan fights Wade, but they know nothing of each other, and Deadpool later fights a Ex Weapon X guy who was dating his older Girlfriend? No one seems to know what Comic that was.

#35 Posted by Wolverine08 (42289 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

Jeez Cadence, Manifest Destiny already explained this down to the last detail for people like you who have this question. Go read it. It has been explained that Wolverine has a tendency to slack off from applying his martial art skill and just hacks and slashes (As his Master Po angrily noted). When he really gets disciplined and applies his skill, he's one of the best. Lastly, I agree that Wolverine is better than Shang Chi, but I don't know why people take that New Avengers fight as him being "better" than Iron Fist. It was just a sparring match and both blatantly noted that they weren't giving their all. What that feat shows is that Wolverine is in Iron Fist's league when it's comes to martial art skill not that he is straight up better than him. Nothing more and nothing less.

I can understand the argument of Wolverine knowing the skills to be awesome and such, but if he regularly in character does not apply himself, which he rarely does, then he is not the top rank of skill. Skill is more than knowledge, it is applying it. Skills you do not apply end up like a knife left in a drawer. Rusting over time. He simply is not the top tier of skill if he rarely applies it in the 1000s of comics he has.

Also iron Fist was at a total disadvantage in the sparring. Iron Fist with no chi powers vs Wolverine he still has his Adamantium Skeleton and Healing Factor. How could IF in any conceivable way win that Sparring? Its not proof of Wolverine on his skill level at all. He was going to win no matter how it went down which is why I hated the feat in the first place.

That is real life logic you are applying to comic skill Cadence, and that won't never work unless you are using Ultimate Marvel comics or comics specializing in realism. Wolverine has been shown and noted to usually applies his skill when he knows his opponent is skilled, and when he does, his training has allowed him to be one of the best. The sparring fight in New Avengers looked like most sparring matches I've ever seen. The first person to knock the other person down "won". Iron Fist sent Wolverine flying backwards with a kick in the beginning of the fight, so could have won. Sure, he couldn't have literally killed or knocked Logan out, but he could have still win in the way you do in a sparring match.

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#36 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

That is real life logic you are applying to comic skill Cadence, and that won't never work unless you are using Ultimate Marvel comics or comics specializing in realism. Wolverine has been shown and noted to usually applies his skill when he knows his opponent is skilled, and when he does, his training has allowed him to be one of the best. The sparring fight in New Avengers looked like most sparring matches I've ever seen. The first person to knock the other person down "won". Iron Fist sent Wolverine flying backwards with a kick in the beginning of the fight, so could have won. Sure, he couldn't have literally killed or knocked Logan out, but he could have still win in the way you do in a sparring match.

My problem is using real life logic, yet here we have a Current Wolverine who cannot pop his claws because he will bleed out, yet Ultimate Wolverine with no healing factor can pop claws with no problem. Ultimate verse is SOOOO realistic. >_>

I am so tired of that BS comment of ultimate Verse is realistic. It is realistic in terms of TRYING to apply logic. Its not realistic where Ultimate Iron Man cannot lift over 1000 tons on his own >_> He can lift 1000 tons with Sattelites feeding him energy.... that is not realistic. Try again.

#37 Posted by God_Spawn (37891 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

Jeez Cadence, Manifest Destiny already explained this down to the last detail for people like you who have this question. Go read it. It has been explained that Wolverine has a tendency to slack off from applying his martial art skill and just hacks and slashes (As his Master Po angrily noted). When he really gets disciplined and applies his skill, he's one of the best. Lastly, I agree that Wolverine is better than Shang Chi, but I don't know why people take that New Avengers fight as him being "better" than Iron Fist. It was just a sparring match and both blatantly noted that they weren't giving their all. What that feat shows is that Wolverine is in Iron Fist's league when it's comes to martial art skill not that he is straight up better than him. Nothing more and nothing less.

I can understand the argument of Wolverine knowing the skills to be awesome and such, but if he regularly in character does not apply himself, which he rarely does, then he is not the top rank of skill. Skill is more than knowledge, it is applying it. Skills you do not apply end up like a knife left in a drawer. Rusting over time. He simply is not the top tier of skill if he rarely applies it in the 1000s of comics he has.

Also Iron Fist was at a total disadvantage in the sparring. Iron Fist with no chi powers vs Wolverine who still has his Adamantium Skeleton and Healing Factor. How could IF in any conceivable way win that Sparring? Its not proof of Wolverine on his skill level at all. He was going to win no matter how it went down which is why I hated the feat in the first place.

By this logic, Batman then shouldn't be considered a top tier because he has more showings of skillfully beating up fodder opponents over skilled names. Just because Logan isn't busting out Judo tosses and karate chops on every little opponent he faces does not deter his showings against the skilled opponents he faces. They've generally grown to have shown when he wasn't as considered skilled as he is now, he was shown getting his butt kicked by skilled opponents. To name a few, Iron Fist, Captain America, and Shang- Chi have all beaten or humiliated Logan before. Iron Fist was punching him around when he was taking on some of the X-Men. When Wolverine sought out Shang-Chi because Sabretooth kidnapped Kitty Pryde, Logan was humiliated by Shang. Wolverine admitted back in WWII that Cap gave him one of his worst beatings ever. Nowadays, Cap can't even beat a weakened Wolverine. Wolverine stomped Shang-Chi in 3 pages.

Then this crosses over into the spar. It is a valid showing. If IF was so much more skilled, he could have incapacitated Logan if he was so much better. Skilled opponents have done it on quite a few occasions beforehand. Despite his "advantages" the whole point of the spar was to show a skill fight between the two. It did just that.

Moderator
#38 Posted by Wolverine08 (42289 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

That is real life logic you are applying to comic skill Cadence, and that won't never work unless you are using Ultimate Marvel comics or comics specializing in realism. Wolverine has been shown and noted to usually applies his skill when he knows his opponent is skilled, and when he does, his training has allowed him to be one of the best. The sparring fight in New Avengers looked like most sparring matches I've ever seen. The first person to knock the other person down "won". Iron Fist sent Wolverine flying backwards with a kick in the beginning of the fight, so could have won. Sure, he couldn't have literally killed or knocked Logan out, but he could have still win in the way you do in a sparring match.

My problem is using real life logic, yet here we have a Current Wolverine who cannot pop his claws because he will bleed out, yet Ultimate Wolverine with no healing factor can pop claws with no problem. Ultimate verse is SOOOO realistic. >_>

I am so tired of that BS comment of ultimate Verse is realistic. It is realistic in terms of TRYING to apply logic. Its not realistic where Ultimate Iron Man cannot lift over 1000 tons on his own >_> He can lift 1000 tons with Sattelites feeding him energy.... that is not realistic. Try again.

That's the thing, major mainstream Marvel and DC comics don't usually care to apply logic in their things. You are absolutely right that in terms of logicality, Logan shouldn't be that good if he isn't constantly using his martial art skill, but Marvel and DC tend to ignore little things like that. The same with the fact that Batman has seriously mastered 127 martial arts despite logically being a few centuries too young to have done that. Those are the little logical faults you have to learn to live with when dealing with mainstream Marvel and DC comics really.

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#39 Posted by jashro44 (21782 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: True but even in the scene where that guy tried to mug him (I think he was trying to mug him? I can't remember but it was the same issue Logan through a hissy fit at thor) we see Logan pop the claws and there wasn't too much blood.

@cadencev2 Fair enough I suppose. My view on wolverines skill is that he is one of the bests when it comes to knowledge and training however I don't think he can use his skill right off the bat. I think he has to memorize it, I don't think its totally out of character for wolverine to use skill but I do feel like it does take some time to remember his training. I also don't believe it is something imprinted in his muscle memory. I do consider him ahead of daredevil (slightly) and the like when he does start using it though however unlike daredevil he has to kind of tell his body what to do where as daredevil just reacts. Not sure if that makes sense.

#40 Posted by God_Spawn (37891 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@cadencev2: On average whenever he does lose his healing factor, he falls back on his MA ability because he knows he can't heal. This also makes him more inclined to dodge. When he first discovered his bone claws, he was shown bleeding out heavily. I think eventually it got more under control despite his HF still being burnt out. I recall him fighting Deadpool without his ady or healing factor, and Logan was getting solid shots on Wade throughout the beginning of the fight. Deadpool also makes reference to the fact Wolverine has no healing factor, he ends up getting a solid blow on Wolverine, and then he stabs him. Logan is left for dead, but his HF starts to kick back in after the fight.

Holy crap, is that the Deadpool fight where Logan fights Wade, but they know nothing of each other, and Deadpool later fights a Ex Weapon X guy who was dating his older Girlfriend? No one seems to know what Comic that was.

Wolverine vol 2 issue 88. And they had heard enough through the grapevine of each other, hence how Deadpool can make the comment about Logan not having his HF.

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#41 Posted by God_Spawn (37891 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: He put his hand under his armpit to stop the bleeding after that mugging IIRC.

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#42 Posted by jashro44 (21782 posts) - - Show Bio

This is the fight you guys are talking about right?

#43 Posted by jashro44 (21782 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: He put his hand under his armpit to stop the bleeding after that mugging IIRC.

Yea I think your right.

#44 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@cadencev2 Fair enough I suppose. My view on wolverines skill is that he is one of the bests when it comes to knowledge and training however I don't think he can use his skill right off the bat. I think he has to memorize it, I don't think its totally out of character for wolverine to use skill but I do feel like it does take some time to remember his training. I also don't believe it is something imprinted in his muscle memory. I do consider him ahead of daredevil (slightly) and the like when he does start using it though however unlike daredevil he has to kind of tell his body what to do where as daredevil just reacts. Not sure if that makes sense.

I can see that.

@wolverine08 said:

That's the thing, major mainstream Marvel and DC comics don't usually care to apply logic in their things. You are absolutely right that in terms of logicality, Logan shouldn't be that good if he isn't constantly using his martial art skill, but Marvel and DC tend to ignore little things like that. The same with the fact that Batman has seriously mastered 127 martial arts despite logically being a few centuries too young to have done that. Those are the little logical faults you have to learn to live with when dealing with mainstream Marvel and DC comics really.

I understand that, but that is the problem I have with Mainstream comics in general. In a battle forum where we do apply logic and try to determine PIS/WIS/CIS we look at logic as a guideline. If the character does it alot, I flow with it, if it is inconsistent or rare concurrence, I get p!$$y about it.

@god_spawn said:

By this logic, Batman then shouldn't be considered a top tier because he has more showings of skillfully beating up fodder opponents over skilled names. Just because Logan isn't busting out Judo tosses and karate chops on every little opponent he faces does not deter his showings against the skilled opponents he faces. They've generally grown to have shown when he wasn't as considered skilled as he is now, he was shown getting his butt kicked by skilled opponents. To name a few, Iron Fist, Captain America, and Shang- Chi have all beaten or humiliated Logan before. Iron Fist was punching him around when he was taking on some of the X-Men. When Wolverine sought out Shang-Chi because Sabretooth kidnapped Kitty Pryde, Logan was humiliated by Shang. Wolverine admitted back in WWII that Cap gave him one of his worst beatings ever. Nowadays, Cap can't even beat a weakened Wolverine. Wolverine stomped Shang-Chi in 3 pages.

Then this crosses over into the spar. It is a valid showing. If IF was so much more skilled, he could have incapacitated Logan if he was so much better. Skilled opponents have done it on quite a few occasions beforehand. Despite his "advantages" the whole point of the spar was to show a skill fight between the two. It did just that.

OK I get what your saying, but 2 things are bothering me.

1) Thanks to Origin stories and such, Wolverine Skill is shown to predate WW2. I can understand if Wolverine was getting better over time with skill, but he already had it, so why does he suck later in life and then gets better again?

2) How can IF beat Logan when pressure points do not work? What can he do?

  • Wolverine Healing Factor ignores pressure points.
  • Wolverine Healing Factor ignores Hulk blows to the head or body.
  • Wolverine Adamanatium skeleton will break IF peak human body (punches or kicks) without him using Chi.
  • Wolverine still has 1-2 ton strength advantage over Chi Less Iron Fist.

Tell me one way IF could have logically win that sparring with no chi?

#45 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine vol 2 issue 88. And they had heard enough through the grapevine of each other, hence how Deadpool can make the comment about Logan not having his HF.

Thank you. So it was like their first official fight then.

@jashro44 said:

This is the fight you guys are talking about right?

YES! I lost that comic long ago, and as a kid I was wondering why the hell Wolverine was losing (Big fan of the X-Men cartoon back then), but never figured what that comic was afterward.

#46 Posted by patrat18 (9769 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

Wolverine beats him. Ult Cap's skills showing are few and far between and are against featless characters.

#47 Posted by God_Spawn (37891 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

1) Thanks to Origin stories and such, Wolverine Skill is shown to predate WW2. I can understand if Wolverine was getting better over time with skill, but he already had it, so why does he suck later in life and then gets better again?He never already had it to begin with. He has gotten better over time.

He never already had it to begin with. He has gotten better over time and has learned more styles over time. While he has forgotten some, he has still learned others.

2) How can IF beat Logan when pressure points do not work? What is can he do?

  • Wolverine Healing Factor ignores Pressure points.
  • Wolverine Healing Factor ignores Hulk blows to the head or body.
  • Wolverine Adamanatium skeleton will break IF peak human body without him using Chi.
  • Wolverine still has 1-2 ton strength advantage over Chi Less Iron Fist.

Tell me one way IF could have logically win that sparring with no chi?

Get him in some hold to where Logan can't move. Have him pinned in a similar situation to how Gambit had him so where the next blow would have "been the end".

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#48 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

1) Thanks to Origin stories and such, Wolverine Skill is shown to predate WW2. I can understand if Wolverine was getting better over time with skill, but he already had it, so why does he suck later in life and then gets better again?He never already had it to begin with. He has gotten better over time.

He never already had it to begin with. He has gotten better over time and has learned more styles over time. While he has forgotten some, he has still learned others.

2) How can IF beat Logan when pressure points do not work? What is can he do?

  • Wolverine Healing Factor ignores Pressure points.
  • Wolverine Healing Factor ignores Hulk blows to the head or body.
  • Wolverine Adamanatium skeleton will break IF peak human body without him using Chi.
  • Wolverine still has 1-2 ton strength advantage over Chi Less Iron Fist.

Tell me one way IF could have logically win that sparring with no chi?

Get him in some hold to where Logan can't move. Have him pinned in a similar situation to how Gambit had him so where the next blow would have "been the end".

So he has lost knowledge? @wolverine08 That sounds logical and what I meant too. People make it sound he never forgotten anything.

Could you put in a hold someone with 2 tons of strength? Also I did not know Gambit ever had gotten the best of Logan.

#49 Posted by Wolverine08 (42289 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

So he has lost knowledge? @wolverine08 That sounds logical and what I meant too. People make it sound he never forgotten anything.

Yeah, he's been shown to have forgotten a few styles and such before, but he's usually shown learning more to make up for the loss if you know what I mean.

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#50 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2:

So he has lost knowledge? @wolverine08 That sounds logical and what I meant too. People make it sound he never forgotten anything.

Yeah, he's been shown to have forgotten a few styles and such before, but he's usually shown learning more to make up for the loss if you know what I mean.

Reasonable enough.

I want to add though..... Batman would have never forgotten lol.