#1 Edited by MonsterStomp (20304 posts) - - Show Bio

Killer Instinct

Arachnids

Rules

  • Everyone is in character
  • Web incapacitation disabled
  • Wolverine's healing factor enabled
  • Peter Parker as Spider-Man
  • Slade has Nth Metal armor and sword (pre 52 feats accepted)
  • Win via knock out or kill

Location

Black:: Team Killer Instinct

Red:: Team Arachnids

#2 Posted by Xo10 (144 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm wolvie and dstroke

#3 Posted by MonsterStomp (20304 posts) - - Show Bio

@xo10: Consider me surprised.

#4 Edited by dccomicsrule2011 (26850 posts) - - Show Bio

How would the Spiders put Wolverine down?

#5 Posted by MonsterStomp (20304 posts) - - Show Bio
#6 Posted by MonsterStomp (20304 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011: How does anyone put Wolverine down? Want me to half his healing factor?

#7 Posted by Cable_Extreme (9770 posts) - - Show Bio

How would the Spiders put Wolverine down?

Go for his heart or something.

#8 Posted by Cable_Extreme (9770 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Team 1 has a good chance at winning, The N-th metal with pre 52 feats, plus his gear is pretty devastating I must say.

#9 Edited by Wolverine08 (45540 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends on the environment. With web incapacitation disabled, the only way for the team to put Wolverine is for Kaine to try go at his heart again. Problem is, Wolverine has already shown that his speed is great enough to almost disembowel Kaine while not going all out along with having him marvel at his speed/avoidance abilities, and along with his durability which has already shown to be able to soak Kaine's blunt force easily, and the damage ouput to one shot him with one good stab to go along with his vastly superior martial skill, Wolverine holds the advantage over Kaine in melee combat, which he is being forced to engage Logan with in this fight. The lack of Spider Sense and Way of the Spider compounds Kaine's disadvantages in melee as well. Slade with Nth armor can also eat copious amounts of blunt force, and can one shot with his promethium blade. The big skill gap the Super Soldiers have here shouldn't be forgotten since this is most likely end up being a melee fight, and while they are at a disadvantage physically in terms of speed and strength, they make up for it with durability and damage output overall. Spider-Man does like to use his environment for incapacitation in character, and that is the only real way the Spiders are going to get victories here. The Super Soldiers should get the majority after some good fights.

#10 Edited by dondave (38889 posts) - - Show Bio

Spiders

#11 Posted by Cable_Extreme (9770 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011: How does anyone put Wolverine down? Want me to half his healing factor?

I wouldn't, the Spidey fans should be popping up sometime soon.

#12 Posted by OreoAssassin (6207 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Spider IMO

#13 Edited by Wolverine08 (45540 posts) - - Show Bio

How would the Spiders put Wolverine down?

Kaine can try rip his heart out like he did in Scarlet Spider #17. Granted, there is context in that Wolverine wasn't expecting Kaine to do that in the particular instance I am referring to, it is a feasible option. Though personally, I would say that Kaine is at a disadvantage at melee with Wolverine with James repping ludicrously superior marital skill, can eat his blunt force(Kaine already almost broke his hand trying to knock Wolverine out), has the speed to tag, and one shot potential with his claws.

#14 Posted by reaverlation (17057 posts) - - Show Bio

Super Soldiers in my opinion.

#15 Edited by Cable_Extreme (9770 posts) - - Show Bio

@oreoassassin said:

Team Spider IMO

What makes you say that?

Explain what is going through your mind

Peter vs Slade

Kaine vs Wolverine

I'll go first, Slade's Nth metal armor has shown to be vulnerable towards piercing weapons, however, Kaine is the only one here really able to put out Wolverine by using his claws and going for the heart leaving Pete and DS to battle. Deathstroke can absorb an insane amount of blunt force trauma with his armor, not to mention he has a skill advantage, explosives, and one shot capability with his sword. Peter will have to dodge everything Slade dishes out, and deal enough damage over a long period of time to bypass his Nth metal armor and healing factor. The likelihood of Peter coming out unscaved is rather low imo due to Slade's speed and skill. On the other hand, Slade can take hit after hit due to his great blunt force capability, beat Peter with his sword if he lands a shot, and he doesn't have to worry about web incap here.

Wolverine vs Kaine I feel would be a faster battle, With Kaine's spidersense and skill not developed quite to the level of Peter, I feel he will get tagged before Peter does. Which Wolverine has the speed, skill, and damage output to take the majority over Kaine, while leaving Kaine with pretty much one option (to go for the heart).

Another tactic Slade has done in both new 52 and pre 52 is use explosives in close proximity to his opponent without fear of hurting himself. Both him and Wolverine can survive explosions, but Spiderman and kaine could get injured from the collateral.

#16 Posted by Wolverine08 (45540 posts) - - Show Bio
#17 Posted by MonsterStomp (20304 posts) - - Show Bio
#18 Edited by ShenKuei (1584 posts) - - Show Bio

Spiders. I completely disagree that they can't put Wolverine down without webbing. SpOck did it in like one page (no, it's not PIS, just a low-ish showing). Of course, it will be extremely difficult but that's what they have Spider Sense, agility and reflexes for. Keep in mind Kaine is at least twice as strong as Otto/Pete. Also, OP does not say they can't use webbing, only that they can't use it to incapacitate.

Deathstroke loses to Pete in a tough fight, Deathstroke is clearly outmatched against Kaine. Pete can avoid Wolverine long enough for Kaine to aid him, or if the match-ups are reversed, Kaine can probably beat Logan solo.

#19 Posted by Wolverine08 (45540 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp: The great Spider vs Wolverine war needs its Wolverine general to lead its troops!

#20 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6612 posts) - - Show Bio

Get in here @super_soldierxii! I choose you!

Nooooo!!!! Another Spider-Man vs Wolverine debate *slits wrists*

With web incap off, I will definitely and without doubt state in most emphatic terms, and for the umpteenth time, that Wolverine will defeat Peter Parker. Period.

So yeah, I'd have to go Slade and Logan here. Beyond a shadow of a doubt for me. Add webbing? Then the arachnids should win majority via incap.

#21 Posted by Wolverine08 (45540 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii:

Nooooo!!!! Another Spider-Man vs Wolverine debate *slits wrists*

Get for ready for the Superior Spider-Man showing to come out!

#22 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6612 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii:

Nooooo!!!! Another Spider-Man vs Wolverine debate *slits wrists*

Get for ready for the Superior Spider-Man showing to come out!

Then get ready to hear one little word "touch".

#23 Posted by BeaconofStrength (6702 posts) - - Show Bio

Gonna say Spiders got this.

#24 Edited by Wolverine08 (45540 posts) - - Show Bio

@shenkuei said:

Spiders. I completely disagree that they can't put Wolverine down without webbing. SpOck did it in like one page (no, it's not PIS, just a low-ish showing). Of course, it will be extremely difficult but that's what they have Spider Sense, agility and reflexes for. Keep in mind Kaine is at least twice as strong as Otto/Pete. Also, OP does not say they can't use webbing, only that they can't use it to incapacitate.

Deathstroke loses to Pete in a tough fight, Deathstroke is clearly outmatched against Kaine. Pete can avoid Wolverine long enough for Kaine to aid him, or if the match-ups are reversed, Kaine can probably beat Logan solo.

The biggest problem with going by the Spock showing is that it's utterly inconsistent with how Spider-Man's blunt force has affected Wolverine. Peter completely let loose with everything he had on Logan with his punches back in Spider-Man versus Wolverine #1 and only made Logan smile. Peter as an adult has thrown Wolverine through unbreakable glass down a 2,000 foot window in Amazing Spider #525 and Logan hit the ground unfazed. A Back in Black Peter whom was physically amped sucker punched Wolverine during the Disassembled arc and only made him mad. He unloaded on him again in an Avengers practice session and only got Logan to yell "Ouch!" annoyingly. Going by consistent showings, Parker can't knock Logan out. Kaine isn't going to beat Wolverine under these stipulations. Kaine's style of trying to outmuscle his opponents in melee is going to work horridly against an opponent like Wolverine whom is sporting somewhat comparable speed to tag him with, vastly superior martial skill, can soak his blunt force all day long, and can one shot him via the claws. Kaine's one and only shot for a victor is to try rip Wolverine's heart out with his stingers, and doing so in melee without receiving vast injury is in short, extremely unlikely.

#25 Posted by Cable_Extreme (9770 posts) - - Show Bio

@shenkuei said:

Spiders. I completely disagree that they can't put Wolverine down without webbing. SpOck did it in like one page (no, it's not PIS, just a low-ish showing). Of course, it will be extremely difficult but that's what they have Spider Sense, agility and reflexes for. Keep in mind Kaine is at least twice as strong as Otto/Pete. Also, OP does not say they can't use webbing, only that they can't use it to incapacitate.

Deathstroke loses to Pete in a tough fight, Deathstroke is clearly outmatched against Kaine. Pete can avoid Wolverine long enough for Kaine to aid him, or if the match-ups are reversed, Kaine can probably beat Logan solo.

Sure he could beat logan, but the likelihood is that Logan takes the majority. Logan is surprisingly fast, and his speed has been acknowledged by both Kaine and Peter. Not to mention his skill advantage, and one shot capability.

As for the Spock encounter, he has better showings of durability than getting knocked out by by around 15 tons. He has tanked punches by 100+ tonners before without getting KO'ed. So the likelihood is rather low for Kaine to KO Logan.

#26 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6612 posts) - - Show Bio

@shenkuei said:

Spiders. I completely disagree that they can't put Wolverine down without webbing. SpOck did it in like one page (no, it's not PIS, just a low-ish showing). Of course, it will be extremely difficult but that's what they have Spider Sense, agility and reflexes for. Keep in mind Kaine is at least twice as strong as Otto/Pete. Also, OP does not say they can't use webbing, only that they can't use it to incapacitate.

Deathstroke loses to Pete in a tough fight, Deathstroke is clearly outmatched against Kaine. Pete can avoid Wolverine long enough for Kaine to aid him, or if the match-ups are reversed, Kaine can probably beat Logan solo.

The biggest problem with going by the Spock showing is that it's utterly inconsistent with how Spider-Man's blunt force has affected Wolverine. Peter completely let loose with everything he had on Logan with his punches back in Spider-Man versus Wolverine #1 and only made Logan smile. Peter as an adult has thrown Wolverine through unbreakable glass down a 2,000 foot window and Logan hit the ground unfazed. A Back in Black Peter whom was physically amped sucker punched Wolverine and only made him mad. He unloaded on him again in an Avengers practice session and only got Logan to yell "Ouch!" annoyingly. Going by consistent showings, Parker can't knock Logan out. Kaine isn't going to beat Wolverine under these stipulations. Kaine's style of trying to outmuscle his opponents in melee is going to work horridly against an opponent like Wolverine whom is sporting somewhat comparable speed to tag him with, vastly superior martial skill, can soak his blunt force all day long, and can one shot him via the claws.

That, and by shenkuei's own admission, it was a "low-ish" showing. While Spider-Man completely unloading against a Wolverine who was likewise completely holding back, might very temporarily KO Wolverine, it is the exception, not the rule, and as such cannot be used to justify a majority win. Wolverine has proven both against Spider-Man and other, stronger, antagonists that he can soak blunt force like no other far, far more often than the inverse.

Additionally, as everyone is in character, only Parker and Logan would be holding back on one another, for everyone else, everything goes. Parker's morals may prove the weak link, as both Deathstroke and Wolverine will be going balls to the walls against Kaine because A) Wolverine doesn't like him and told him in no uncertain terms what he'd do to him should he come knocking once again and B) Slade doesn't know either Parker nor Kaine for crap and will definitely be happy to land a killing blow on either or. Parker will not go lethal. Which he'd have to to really hurt either Logan or Slade (in his suit).

Morals on advantage? Team Killer Instinct.

#27 Posted by whysoserious1 (73 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine and deathstroke.

#28 Edited by Wolverine08 (45540 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: Fair point about the morals. Still kind of sad that Wolverine warned Kaine that he'd put him six feet under if he ever came around his school again. The two of them were a pretty charismatic team :D

#29 Posted by JetiiMitra (8870 posts) - - Show Bio

Spiders via something or other

#30 Posted by Wolverine08 (45540 posts) - - Show Bio

@mitran said:

Spiders via something or other

Jus' cause!

#31 Posted by ShenKuei (1584 posts) - - Show Bio

@shenkuei said:

Spiders. I completely disagree that they can't put Wolverine down without webbing. SpOck did it in like one page (no, it's not PIS, just a low-ish showing). Of course, it will be extremely difficult but that's what they have Spider Sense, agility and reflexes for. Keep in mind Kaine is at least twice as strong as Otto/Pete. Also, OP does not say they can't use webbing, only that they can't use it to incapacitate.

Deathstroke loses to Pete in a tough fight, Deathstroke is clearly outmatched against Kaine. Pete can avoid Wolverine long enough for Kaine to aid him, or if the match-ups are reversed, Kaine can probably beat Logan solo.

The biggest problem with going by the Spock showing is that it's utterly inconsistent with how Spider-Man's blunt force has affected Wolverine. Peter completely let loose with everything he had on Logan with his punches back in Spider-Man versus Wolverine #1 and only made Logan smile. Peter as an adult has thrown Wolverine through unbreakable glass down a 2,000 foot window and Logan hit the ground unfazed. A Back in Black Peter whom was physically amped sucker punched Wolverine and only made him mad. He unloaded on him again in an Avengers practice session and only got Logan to yell "Ouch!" annoyingly. Going by consistent showings, Parker can't knock Logan out. Kaine isn't going to beat Wolverine under these stipulations. Kaine's style of trying to outmuscle his opponents in melee is going to work horridly against an opponent like Wolverine whom is sporting somewhat comparable speed to tag him with, vastly superior martial skill, can soak his blunt force all day long, and can one shot him via the claws. Kaine's one and only shot for a victor is to try rip Wolverine's heart out with his stingers, and doing so in melee without receiving vast injury is in short, extremely unlikely.

It's seemingly inconsistent because Pete is constantly low-balled in their fights. Not to mention that he holds back greatly, especially against Wolverine. Pete never completely let loose on him despite what his internal dialogue said. Pete doesn't have it in him to let loose against a friend. The number of times he truly went all out against anyone can be counted on one hand, he wasn't even going all out against Fisk in the infamous Back in Black fight.

Pete throwing him through a window means nothing. Put Pete in an actual life or death situation where he is really trying to hurt him and the results may be different. The SpOck fight is a better example because we know SpOck doesn't hold back. This was made clear early on when he punched Scorpions jaw right off without even trying, an opponent that has also soaked up Pete's hits without even flinching before. I could also bring up all the times Wolverine has gotten rocked by people far weaker than Pete.

True, Kaine's style is not heavy on finesse but he's have to be an idiot to just try to punch Wolverine out when stabbing him is clearly more effective. He already knows he can take out Wolverine with one well-placed stab, why in the world wouldn't he try that again if his usual tactics are so ineffective? To say nothing of his strength levels which can do a lot more to Wolverine than I think you are acknowledging.

#32 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6612 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@super_soldierxii: Fair point about the morals. Still kind of sad that Wolverine warned Kaine that he'd put him six feet under if he ever came around his school again. The two of them were a pretty charismatic team :D

Pretty sure they'll team up again. I too think they make an absolutely awesome team. I'd love a new X-Force team with the two working together. Add a splash of Deadpool to mix bring back AoE Kurt (lethal Wagner with a huge chip on his shoulder is oh so much more interesting) ... but I digress ...

#33 Edited by JetiiMitra (8870 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@mitran said:

Spiders via something or other

Jus' cause!

Yeah, "jus' cause" of something or other

#34 Posted by ShenKuei (1584 posts) - - Show Bio

That, and by shenkuei's own admission, it was a "low-ish" showing. While Spider-Man completely unloading against a Wolverine who was likewise completely holding back, might very temporarily KO Wolverine, it is the exception, not the rule, and as such cannot be used to justify a majority win. Wolverine has proven both against Spider-Man and other, stronger, antagonists that he can soak blunt force like no other far, far more often than the inverse.

Additionally, as everyone is in character, only Parker and Logan would be holding back on one another, for everyone else, everything goes. Parker's morals may prove the weak link, as both Deathstroke and Wolverine will be going balls to the walls against Kaine because A) Wolverine doesn't like him and told him in no uncertain terms what he'd do to him should he come knocking once again and B) Slade doesn't know either Parker nor Kaine for crap and will definitely be happy to land a killing blow on either or. Parker will not go lethal. Which he'd have to to really hurt either Logan or Slade (in his suit).

Morals on advantage? Team Killer Instinct.

I just addressed the suppose "unleashing" of Parker onto Logan. Short answer: I don't buy it.

As for Slade I think the common consensus is that Pete beats him solo. Kaine is not exactly a boyscout either so I don't think morals are huge disadvantage for him. I will agree with you on the point that Pete is unlikely to KO Logan on his own which is why I said he would just evade Wolverine until Kaine can help him. It's completely in character for him to fight evasively like that, especially with morals on as you pointed out.

@shenkuei said:

Spiders. I completely disagree that they can't put Wolverine down without webbing. SpOck did it in like one page (no, it's not PIS, just a low-ish showing). Of course, it will be extremely difficult but that's what they have Spider Sense, agility and reflexes for. Keep in mind Kaine is at least twice as strong as Otto/Pete. Also, OP does not say they can't use webbing, only that they can't use it to incapacitate.

Deathstroke loses to Pete in a tough fight, Deathstroke is clearly outmatched against Kaine. Pete can avoid Wolverine long enough for Kaine to aid him, or if the match-ups are reversed, Kaine can probably beat Logan solo.

Sure he could beat logan, but the likelihood is that Logan takes the majority. Logan is surprisingly fast, and his speed has been acknowledged by both Kaine and Peter. Not to mention his skill advantage, and one shot capability.

As for the Spock encounter, he has better showings of durability than getting knocked out by by around 15 tons. He has tanked punches by 100+ tonners before without getting KO'ed. So the likelihood is rather low for Kaine to KO Logan.

I know he's fast, he's still slower than Kaine or Parker I awuld also question his "one shot capability" against Kaine who has been repeatedly stabbed to little effect before and has healed up from stabbings very quickly. You're right about Logan have better durability showings than getting knocked out by SpOck, he also has many worse ones.

#35 Edited by Wolverine08 (45540 posts) - - Show Bio

@shenkuei: Okay, now you are sounding a bit silly in your justification as to why Peter has consistently failed to put down Logan via their blunt force. Peter did let loose in there encounter in Spider-Man versus Wolverine #1. He commented on how durable he was. Peter knows that he cannot kill Wolverine. He's seen the man get punched in face unexpectedly by the class 100 Skaar and only get a little dazed. He lets loose on Wolverine because there's no drawback to him doing so. You have no actual proof to show that Peter did not in fact give everything he had against Wolverine whereas there is clear, on panel dialogue explicitly stating so. Why does a pissed off Peter throwing Wolverine down 2,000 feet mean nothing? Because you say so?Spider-Man does not get lowballed in any way in his fights with Wolverine. Many a timse Wolverine has ended up webbed up in some humiliating fashion in their fights, BRF'd via webbing, etc. That's just a subjective assumption on your part that you cannot prove. The problem with Kaine engaging Wolverine in melee combat isn't the damage output. I do believe he'll try use his stingers, but he's facing somebody whom has speed comparable to his that he can't make up for with Spider-Sense or the Way of the Spider fighting style like Peter could, and Wolverine undoubtedly has a ridiculous skill edge over Kaine that is compounded with his damage output via his claws which can cost much more severe damage on Kaine like dismembering and can one shot him. And Wolverine isn't an idiot either, he's had his brainwaves in combat clocked as being the equivalent to that of an Olympic athlete completing a gold medal winning routine while simultaneously beating four chess computers in his head, and he's going to be expecting Kaine to use the stingers, making dropping Logan with them even harder.

#36 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6612 posts) - - Show Bio

@shenkuei:

I just addressed the suppose "unleashing" of Parker onto Logan. Short answer: I don't buy it.

Doesn't matter if you don't buy it. It's happened in comics. Consistently. That, and it's consistent with Wolverine's power set and many of his other showings. And this by a significant margin. So you not buying it does not win you the debate. It simply makes you conveniently incredulous and a little stubborn.

As for Slade I think the common consensus is that Pete beats him solo. Kaine is not exactly a boyscout either so I don't think morals are huge disadvantage for him. I will agree with you on the point that Pete is unlikely to KO Logan on his own which is why I said he would just evade Wolverine until Kaine can help him. It's completely in character for him to fight evasively like that, especially with morals on as you pointed out.

With the Nth metal armor, I think you're really underestimating Deathstroke's damage soak. You might be underestimating him altogether. The dude splits a bullet in two with his sword. Fast enough, skilled enough, and accurate enough to do that to a projectile traveling at 800 meters per second, then I think Kaine is in more trouble than you'd care to admit one on one against Slade. The consensus on the Vine is that Spider-Man will indeed win a majority against Slade mostly due to spider-sense and webbing. Neither of which Kaine possesses.

Arachnid team are fighting an uphill battle I'm afraid.

#37 Posted by Experio (17139 posts) - - Show Bio

Deathstroke.

#38 Posted by ShenKuei (1584 posts) - - Show Bio

@shenkuei: Okay, now you are sounding a bit silly in your justification as to why Peter has consistently failed to put down Logan via their blunt force. Peter did let loose in there encounter in Spider-Man versus Wolverine #1. He commented on how durable he was. Peter knows that he cannot kill Wolverine. He's seen the man get punched in face unexpectedly by the class 100 Skaar and only get a little daze. He lets loose on Wolverine because there's no drawback to him doing so. You have no actual proof to show that Peter did not in fact give everything he had against Wolverine whereas there is clear, on panel dialogue explicitly stating so. Why does a pissed off Peter throwing Wolverine down 2,000 feet mean nothing? Because you say so?Spider-Man does not get lowballed in any way in his fights with Wolverine. Many a time Wolverine has ended up webbed up in some humiliating fashion in their fights, BRF'd via webbing, etc. That's just a subjective assumption on your part that you cannot prove. The problem with Kaine engaging Wolverine in melee combat isn't the damage output. I do believe he'll try use his stingers, but he's facing somebody whom has speed comparable to his that he can't make up for with Spider-Sense or the Way of the Spider fighting style like Peter could, and Wolverine undoubtedly has a ridiculous skill edge over Kaine that is compounded with his damage output via his claws which can cost much more severe damage on Kaine like dismembering and can one shot him. And Wolverine isn't an idiot either, he's had his brainwaves in combat clocked as being the equivalent to that of an Olympic athlete completing a gold medal winning routine while simultaneously beating four chess computers in his head, and he's going to be expecting Kaine to use the stingers, making dropping Logan with them even harder.

Obviously, this is all subjective making broad assumptions in theoretical battles requires a degree of speculation and subjective analysis.All of this is my opinion, make of it whatever you want. I can make the claim I have because I've read hundreds of Spider-man (and Wolverine) comics and I know Spider-man's character and how he acts and the SpOck showing provides an objective backing to my idea. SpOck slamming Wolverine to the ground and KOing him is about as concrete of a form of evidence as there is. You can pretend it didn't happen if you want but I've chosen to take it into account. I said the window thing doesn't matter because nobody is throwing Wolverine through any windows in this fight, so I don't see it as relevant.

I know Wolverine's abilities. Kaine is still faster, much stronger, more agile and he has webbing (OP only says he can't use it to incap). He is durable enough to withstand a lot of damage himself. I think it's a fight he has the capability to win.

I never said Wolverine was an idiot. You're overreacting. You said that Kaine would use a "horrid" strategy of trying to outmuscle Wolverine and I countered that he would choose a smarter strategy; that's all. I know Logan is going to be expecting it, doesn't mean he won't be able to pull it off.

#39 Posted by MonsterStomp (20304 posts) - - Show Bio
#40 Posted by Wolverine08 (45540 posts) - - Show Bio
#41 Posted by SilverPool (2236 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd say the Spiders. Kaine has already killed Wolverine (briefly) before so I think he could take him on. I'm not entirely sure how Spiderman would fare against Slade tho.

#42 Edited by MonsterStomp (20304 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@monsterstomp said:

@super_soldierxii Thank you for using the Team names!

There's no webbing at here at all, right MS?

Use of webs is allowed, the Spider-Men just can't use it to incapacitate the Killer Instincts. They can still sling around buildings, disarm, etc. Just not allowed to spray them all out with web.

#43 Edited by ShenKuei (1584 posts) - - Show Bio

@shenkuei:

I just addressed the suppose "unleashing" of Parker onto Logan. Short answer: I don't buy it.

Doesn't matter if you don't buy it. It's happened in comics. Consistently. That, and it's consistent with Wolverine's power set and many of his other showings. And this by a significant margin. So you not buying it does not win you the debate. It simply makes you conveniently incredulous and a little stubborn.

As for Slade I think the common consensus is that Pete beats him solo. Kaine is not exactly a boyscout either so I don't think morals are huge disadvantage for him. I will agree with you on the point that Pete is unlikely to KO Logan on his own which is why I said he would just evade Wolverine until Kaine can help him. It's completely in character for him to fight evasively like that, especially with morals on as you pointed out.

With the Nth metal armor, I think you're really underestimating Deathstroke's damage soak. You might be underestimating him altogether. The dude splits a bullet in two with his sword. Fast enough, skilled enough, and accurate enough to do that to a projectile traveling at 800 meters per second, then I think Kaine is in more trouble than you'd care to admit one on one against Slade. The consensus on the Vine is that Spider-Man will indeed win a majority against Slade mostly due to spider-sense and webbing. Neither of which Kaine possesses.

Arachnid team are fighting an uphill battle I'm afraid.

I'm saying it didn't happen. There is room for interpretation here just like there is room for you to say that SpOck KOing Logan isn't a legitimate showing despite the fact that that also happened. Isn't that why we debate?

I don't think I'm underestimating Slade, I am aware of his abilities. I never said either of the Spiders would beat him easily only that they could take a majority. I just decided to focus more on Wolverine. It's true that Kaine doesn't have a Spider Sense but he definitely has webbing. He's also faster, much stronger and much more durable than Pete with more of a killer instinct and better skill (imo). Plus the stingers.

#44 Edited by Wolverine08 (45540 posts) - - Show Bio

@shenkuei:

Obviously, this is all subjective making broad assumptions in theoretical battles requires a degree of speculation and subjective analysis.All of this is my opinion, make of it whatever you want. I can make the claim I have because I've read hundreds of Spider-man (and Wolverine) comics and I know Spider-man's character and how he acts and the SpOck showing provides an objective backing to my idea. SpOck slamming Wolverine to the ground and KOing him is about as concrete of a form of evidence as there is. You can pretend it didn't happen if you want but I've chosen to take it into account. I said the window thing doesn't matter because nobody is throwing Wolverine through any windows in this fight, so I don't see it as relevant.

You see, it is best in a debate to avoid making emotional, subjective assessments if you want to be taken seriously. You want the objective facts surrounding Spider-Man versus Wolverine #1? Spider-Man put everything had behind his punches into an attempt to knock Wolverine out, and he simply made him smile. You have no evidence to him not going all out. Peter was shocked by killer like nature of Wolverine, and was afraid of his life. Do you know anyone whom holds back in a fight when life and death is at stake? I am not ignoring the Spock showing like you are Wolverine's showing of simply laughing off Parker's pucnhes. I countered with the fact that Wolverine has consistently soaked Spider-Man's blunt force sans the Spock showing. We go by consistent happenings on here due to the at times inconsistent nature of comics due to multiple writers, etc., and Wolverine has simply consistently soaked Peter's blunt force with smiles, against an amped Peter, etc. The window showing is an example of blunt force soak. Not too hard to wrap the head around really.

I know Wolverine's abilities. Kaine is still faster, much stronger, more agile and he has webbing (OP only says he can't use it to incap). He is durable enough to withstand a lot of damage himself. I think it's a fight he has the capability to win.

That's the main problem with Spider-Man vs Wolverine fights. People get far too caught up in physical states. The only physical Kaine stands head over heels against Wolverine with is physical strength, and that edge is generally useless considering that Kaine already showed all his physical strength just gets him to almost break his hand when he tries to punch Wolverine.

Wolverine most definitely has shown he has the raw natural speed necessary to tag Kaine, and that tagging ability is amped by his vastly superior martial skill which also amps his overall capability in melee combat. You gave a strategy for Kaine, but it is not in character for him. I've read his whole solo by Christopher Yost. Due to his lack of morals and physical capabilities, Kaine is an extremely aggressive fighter with a penchant for getting up in his opponents. He doesn't even have nor make frequent use of Spider Sense aided avoidance like Spider-Man does that would be necessary to avoid the one shot potential the superior martial artist with similar speed he is facing has here. He even likes to tank damage, and even you can show that Kaine can take stabbing damage that has one shotted Savage Hulk even with his ridiculous healing factor with one good stab to the brain, then you might have a point. Kaine has little advantages over Wolverine in melee combat.

#45 Edited by GraniteSoldier (8851 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

Spiders

This. Web incapacitation isn't allowed, but a battleground isn't specified. That means it's just some downtown city setting. Spidey or Kaine could either one KO Deathstroke (kill him in Kaine's case since I doubt he'd lose sleep over that) and the use of cars or other objects in the environment to smother Logan that way. If you are looking for victory via KO or Death ONLY, The obvious edge is to Logan and Slade, but I feel Logan is going to end up getting double teamed rather quickly. Kaine can put Logan down with his stingers, temporarily at least, and the fact of the matter is you need to consider the spiders have a past of working together and Slade and Wolverine don't. That's an undoubted factor that I haven't seen anyone else consider. The spiders have greater mobility due to better agility, speed, wall-crawling, webs, and the environment and neither (despite Kaine's brawler style) is prone to slug it out directly in a fight they aren't likely to win (look at Kaine's run-ins with Carnage). And stop mentioning Wolverine vs Spider-Man comic encounters from forever ago, Peter has changed a lot since then in terms of standard gear and training. Is he a better fighter than Logan? No of course not. Has his approach to combat changed? Noticeably so. At best all they do is show Logan's skill can make up for the physical gap. However Spidey isn't some untrained kid anymore, so we can't assume how the fight would go down at all. He knows Logan is better than he is, and he approaches hand to hand fighting very differently. He'd likely not try and punch out Logan at all.

And good golly holly why is there a new Spidey vs Wolverine thread of some form, fashion, or variation every week?!

Oh and Kaine doesn't have spider-sense, I keep reading people mentioning it. He's stated many times he doesn't.

#46 Posted by Wolverine08 (45540 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp: Mind putting a specific battleground up? With Peter's tendencies, it's somewhat important to know.

#47 Posted by MonsterStomp (20304 posts) - - Show Bio

@granitesoldier

And good golly holly why is there a new Spidey vs Wolverine thread of some form, fashion, or variation every week?!

Because I wanna!

#48 Posted by MonsterStomp (20304 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp: Mind putting a specific battleground up? With Peter's tendencies, it's somewhat important to know.

Aight hang on a bit, yo!

#49 Posted by ShenKuei (1584 posts) - - Show Bio

@shenkuei:

Obviously, this is all subjective making broad assumptions in theoretical battles requires a degree of speculation and subjective analysis.All of this is my opinion, make of it whatever you want. I can make the claim I have because I've read hundreds of Spider-man (and Wolverine) comics and I know Spider-man's character and how he acts and the SpOck showing provides an objective backing to my idea. SpOck slamming Wolverine to the ground and KOing him is about as concrete of a form of evidence as there is. You can pretend it didn't happen if you want but I've chosen to take it into account. I said the window thing doesn't matter because nobody is throwing Wolverine through any windows in this fight, so I don't see it as relevant.

You see, it is best in a debate to avoid making emotional, subjective assessments if you want to be taken seriously. You want the objective facts surrounding Spider-Man versus Wolverine #1? Spider-Man put everything had behind his punches into an attempt to knock Wolverine out, and he simply made him smile. You have no evidence to him not going all out. Peter was shocked by killer like nature of Wolverine, and was afraid of his life. Do you know anyone whom holds back in a fight when life and death is at stake? I am not ignoring the Spock showing like you are Wolverine's showing of simply laughing off Parker's pucnhes. I countered with the fact that Wolverine has consistently soaked Spider-Man's blunt force sans the Spock showing. We go by consistent happenings on here due to the at times inconsistent nature of comics due to multiple writers, etc., and Wolverine has simply consistently soaked Peter's blunt force with smiles, against an amped Peter, etc. The window showing is an example of blunt force soak. Not too hard to wrap the head around really.

I know Wolverine's abilities. Kaine is still faster, much stronger, more agile and he has webbing (OP only says he can't use it to incap). He is durable enough to withstand a lot of damage himself. I think it's a fight he has the capability to win.

That's the main problem with Spider-Man vs Wolverine fights. People get far too caught up in physical states. The only physical Kaine stands head over heels against Wolverine with is physical strength, and that edge is generally useless considering that Kaine already showed all his physical strength just gets him to almost break his hand when he tries to punch Wolverine.

Wolverine most definitely has shown he has the raw natural speed necessary to tag Kaine, and that tagging ability is amped by his vastly superior martial skill which also amps his overall capability in melee combat. You gave a strategy for Kaine, but it is not in character for him. I've read his whole solo by Christopher Yost. Due to his lack of morals and physical capabilities, Kaine is an extremely aggressive fighter with a penchant for getting up in his opponents. He doesn't even have nor make frequent use of Spider Sense aided avoidance like Spider-Man does. He even likes to tank damage, and even you can show that Kaine can take stabbing damage that has one shotted Savage Hulk even with his ridiculous healing factor, then you might have a point. Kaine has little advantages over Wolverine in melee combat.

I haven't made an "emotional" assessments. I have zero emotional involvement in this issue, I'm speaking purely from a logical perspective. My evidence is the SpOck showing, I could bring up examples of Spidey hitting more durable people than Wolverine and having a bigger effect than he did in that fight. I'm sure you could think of some examples yourself. I can bring up examples of Wolverine getting hit by people weaker than Peter and being affected by them. There are plenty of examples that contradict that showing. Surely you could agree with me on that point? The most logical explanation I could come up with for this is that Pete is not actually going as all-out as he claims he is. This is consistent with his character. A thought bubble claiming he is going all-out is not the most concrete evidence in the world. Pete being afraid doesn't support the idea. He is frequently afraid in his battles, he doesn't suddenly start trying to punch peoples' heads off because of it. If you aren't factoring the SpOck showing in, then by definition you are ignoring it.

Every physical edge counts, in my opinion. Kaine almost breaking his hand on Wolverine 's skull doesn't mean much. It'd be one thing if he actually did break his hand but that's not what happened and just because Wolverine's skull is hard doesn't mean anything relative to his concussion resistance.

You're right that Wolverine is fast enough to tag Kaine, but not easily. As far as for his strategy...you're taking a too simplistic view. Kaine isn't going to use the same strategy on every opponent over and over. That just doesn't make sense. He is smart enough to change strategies when one tactic is obviously more affective than another. That's not an aspect of his character the same is true for ANY street leveler with half a brain. Sure, Wolverine could one-shot him with a stab to the brain but he can't just one-shot him at will like you are implying. The last time they fought Kaine was the only one to land a kill-shot.

I'm not going to debate Wolverine vs Kaine any more. I really don't care that much and I don't want to get into a big debate about it. Feel free to claim victory as yours on that point my friend.

#50 Posted by GraniteSoldier (8851 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp: Mind putting a specific battleground up? With Peter's tendencies, it's somewhat important to know.

It's actually highly important considering Peter's unparalleled history of environmental improvisation victories.