Wolverine (Bone Claw) Vs. Cassandra Cain

@erik: but he's not on Superman's level. That imposter wasnt seeing as how he was fist fighting slade. I meant saying batman is run on BS. That's not true. I could just say anyone is run on BS then. I don't have to be a wolverine expert to argue you back. I proved his feats are peak human and Slade's are not

• Batman has done what? What are the feats he has replicated? Has Batman thrown 1600 lbs like a baseball? I'd be very interested in seeing that. Has he kicked a stone slab several dozen ft with a trajectory that indicated the slab was going to continue for approximately another 100 ft? Has Batman jumped 50 ft into the air under his own power, while carrying over 100 lbs of gear? Please, provide these feats. I would love to see how Batman continues to run on PIS.
• Appeal to masses is not supporting your argument. It is by definition, a logical fallacy. Look it up please.
• What are Slade's actual strength feats?

• Prove that Lobo is not on Superman's level.
• And a run written by Rob Liefeld is totally not PIS.
• Yes, it is very true. I'm just waiting for the reveal that Batman is in fact, a Kryptonian. Because that's the only way to explain some of the nonsense he does.
• You could say anyone runs on BS, but you'd be wrong.
• You're right, you don't need to be an expert. But you should back up your claims.
• You haven't proven anything. All you have done is say these things exist but refuse to reference them or describe them.

Ignoring how this thread turned into Wolverine vs Deathstroke 6.23 (gotta account for them patches ;P), I'm suprised no one has posted the scan of Slade carrying and swimming with a giant suspension bridge 10 people could barely move.

I'm eagerly awaiting that feat. It's my very favorite Slade feat to debunk and shame.

@erik: The feats the other guy listed were ripping out steel bars, holding up a train, and punching through metal. Which all of that batman has done. I can also add benching 1000 pounds and lifting up a sarcophagus which weighs well over a ton. Not sure about the masses thing. I listed his feats above already. Some are beating 25 tonner in tug of war, ripping steel doors or their hinges, cutting people in half, being as strong as ten men, fighting lobo, ripping the doors off a plane... Slade has enhanced strength that is greater than Logan's. You say that masses thing is a flaw but when everyone else who has read about these two characters agree on something its probably true. Its not like believing the earth was flat. They didn't know any better and the earth certainly did look flat. But this can be proven with feats and such.

LOL. I never knew you much, when you first came here, but it is good to have you back :P

@erik: fist fighting with slade proves it. Superman would've destroyed slade. And I have been disproving the feats for logan by saying batman can do them. He has never done the ones you listed but he did do the ones the other guy listed. And you saying bats runs of bs isn't more true than me saying anyone else does. He is peak human. In comics peak humans can do crazy stuff.

Also, just for my curiousity, can you please disprove the feat with the bridge? I didn't know about that one and I'm actually interested in it

• Great. Show me that he has done them.
• Benching 1000 lbs is beyond peak human. Thank you for proving my point.
• I just gave you a brief description of an appeal to the masses. Google is your friend.
• LMAO Yeah, because Slade is a +25 tonner. Get serious.
• Ripping a steel door off it's hinges is peak human. Captain America has done it with a bigger door and while critically injured.
• A human can cut another human in half and they don't even have to be peak human to do it.
• Being as strong as 10 men means 25+ tonner? No.
• Fighting Lobo is PIS so long as Lobo is a Czarnian.
• Ripping a door off a plane is not superhuman.
• I never said it was a flaw, I said appeal to the masses is a logical fallacy. Pleeeeeeeeease look it up. It is just like believing the Earth is flat. It's literally the same fallacy with a different example.

• No, it proves nothing because Batman has fought with Superman. Several times in fact. Batman is not on Superman's level unless you are willing to admit to the absurdity of Batman.
• LOL you say you disprove Wolverine feats but all you have been doing is saying, "Nu-uh!". If that is disproving feats, then I must have wrecked your argument in a bad way.
• Wolverine never did the feats I listed? Why do you say that? Let me ask you this: If Wolverine has done them, would you be forced to admit that Wolverine is superhuman? :D
• I know peak human in comics is pretty fantastic but Batman is well beyond even those standards.
• The bridge tugging feat is nonsense because Slade has never done anything on that level before and because it was from an Elseworld issue. Not only was it an Elseworld issue, but it was a fairy tale to boot. Nothing about that feat is credible. It was a story told to warm the hearts of some stupid kids.

@erik: in comics none of that is beyond peak human and batman only fought superman with kryptonite. When he wasn't using it he bruised his knuckles. No slade isn't a 25 tonner that wasn't my point. My point is that he beat a 25 tonner in a tug of war and is stronger than logan. Proving a other peak human can do them isn't disproving your feats that say he is enhanced? I would say it is.

• LOL you make me laugh. Just about everything Batman does is humanly impossible. He does it because he's the Godd**n Batman. By happy coincidence, that is exactly what running off of BS was intended to mean.
• Only bruising his knuckles is also silly. He should have shattered every bone in his hand, peak human or not.
• Beating a 25 tonner in a tug of war would only be possible if he was more than 25 tons in strength himself. A tug of war is a war of strength, after all. So you are making the argument that Slade being as strong as 10 men is the same as being a 25 tonner. Thank you for spotlighting the absurdity of your own argument.
• Also, I edited my last post to include the debunking of the bridge feat you asked for.

@erik: he didn't punch hard enough to break his hand. You can take it how you want to but slade beat her in a canon story. This just proves he is stronger than lobo. It was a crazy thing for slade to do but he did it. And the bridge feat only doesn't count because its an elseworlds story but thank you

I am not sure what all of this is in response to but Slades fight with the lobo impersonator was retconned to the lobo impersonator having inconsistent power levels:

• I saw no admission that Batman was holding back.
• He beat her in a canon story but because it was something he should have not been able to do, it's PIS. Thank you for playing.
• So you are saying Lobo is only as strong as 9 men or less? Seems like he is not much of a threat at all. Any decent superhero would have no trouble mopping him up.
• ... Yeah, I know it doesn't count. You are the one that asked for the reasons why it doesn't count, remember?

@erik: he wasn't holding back but still didn't hit hard enough to break his hand. Not PIS. Did it have anything to do with the plot? And that lobo had inconsistent power levels.

And I was just agreeing with you on the bridge thing

• He wasn't holding back but wasn't hitting hard enough to break his hand? That's wrong on several levels. Human beings easily have enough punching strength to break their hand when hitting something as hard as they can,when that thing is more stubborn than they are.
• It obviously had a lot to do with the plot. The plot being that DS needed to beat Donna in a tug of war. Completely stupid feat and anyone trying to justify it should be ashamed with themselves.
• Inconsistent power levels means any victories over Lobo are worthless. There is nothing impressive about beating someone that could be as weak as a standard human at any given moment.
• Ah I see. Okay then.

@jashro44: Those scans have given me uncomfortably tight pants. Thank you for that.

@erik: LOL no problem.

Haha thanks.

@erik: Don't ask me to explain the comic. I didn't write it. But that is what happened and everything that sounds fishy isn't PIS. It still happened

Everything that doesn't make sense or is done for the sake of plot is PIS. What a shame that most of Batman's feats don't make sense, eh? Might as well call him Squirrel Girl or Deadpool for all the sense he makes as a character without powers.

@erik: That's one feat that doesn't make sense. A total of one

I'd expect better from you Erik. The power of plot is most dangerous power there is!

One that you based a significant portion of your argument on. There are dozens of other examples. Such as bench-pressing 1000 lbs. Unless you are taking some powerful steroids, that is not humanly possible even with the best strength trainers in the world. So is throwing a human through a steel door that can withstand a ballistic missile. Don't bury your head in the dirt, you know Batman is ridiculous.

Plot armor is particularly impervious. Especially when used by a fan.

@erik: he is ridiculous but that's what peak humans can do in comics. They can bench 1000 pounds

Okay fine. But that's not Wolverine's limit. Therefore, he is enhanced.

@erik: so is slade. More so than wolverine is. By the way we have turned this thread from wolverine vs Cass to wolverine vs slade to arguing over Batman's feats

More so than Wolverine is but you don't want to provide valid superior feats to prove it?

@erik: tug of war with Donna troy. You keep saying I'm not giving feats when I am. And didn't we just have this argument? We are going in circles no need to start it up again.

In order for Slade to beat Donna troy in a tug of war he would have to be stronger then her which he isn't.

@jashro44: but it still happened.

wolverine healing factor is to much here

Thats not the point....You know what else happened? Nightwing grabbed Slades sword and stopped it in mid air using his strength. Are we now assuming night wing is as strong as donna troy?

Just because something happens doesn't make it legit.

LOL How many times does that need to be debunked? It is 100% a PIS feat, even if it did happen. It's a stupid feat and it's stupid to try and use as anything other than flame-bait.

@erik: call it whatever you want, it happened in a canon story dude. That makes it valid. PIS is something that fans came up with.

@jashro44: Nightwing did it with skill not strength. I don't care what you call it. Slade beat troy in tug of war in canon. It happenee. Valid feat.

• By that logic, there is no such thing as PIS. Your arguments just get more and more absurd. It's like watching a bad comedian. You want to tell him to get off the stage but you are rendered nearly speechless by the show.
• You need strength to stop a sword being swung downward with force.
• It's canon. That doesn't mean it's valid. Spider-Man beat Firelord. Gambit beat Gladiator. I don't think you understand what PIS really is. Which is a shame considering the definition is in a thread pinned at the top of this very forum.

@erik: PIS is used when someone doesn't like a feat. If it happened in canon its valid. People just say PIS because they don't like it or it doesn't completely make sense but most things in comics don't make sense. And I know what PIS means... Just have a different view of it than you.

And nightwing is a strong guy. He used a refrigerator as a weapon. He's weaker than slade but is strong enough to stop a sword. I can accept him stopping Slade's sword.

And hey would you look at that. Now our discussion doesn't even involve any of the characters this thread is about. We can't get anymore off topic than this. So like I said earlier, agree to disagree?

If night wing had redirected the blade maybe you could say it was the result of skill. But he didn't. He fully stopped the blade which isn't a skill feat but a strength feat.

If Slade were stronger then donna troy or even comparable then night wing wouldn't be able to stop the sword.

• Your definition very specifically displays your lack of understanding of the meaning of PIS.
• If it happened, it's canon. Doesn't make it valid.
• I admit that some people might say PIS for things they don't like but that is not how the label of PIS is generally used.
• Most things in comics do make sense. They just don't when you spend all your time reading comic book trash like Batman. ;)
• LOL you crack me up. Nightwing's strength is nowhere near Slade. He shouldn't have the strength needed to stop a blade swung by Slade.
• You only want to abandon the topic because you are making a mockery of your favorite characters.

Mr. Z~kun

And yea on topic wolverine takes this every time with his healing factor, without it cassandra should win in a close fight assuming Logan is on his A game.

@erik: fans use PIS when they think something shouldn't have happened. "Nightwing stopping slades sword is PIS because he shouldnt be able to do it." You say he shouldn't be able to do it. I say he should. Because it happened. It happened in a canon story that a writer hired by the company made and that went though the editors. Nothing more valid then that. See? PIS is used when fans think something shouldn't have happened. That's all.

And I gave valid reasons for wanting to abandon this. We are terribly off topic. If you want to continue message me but i would like to stop it here

• 2+2 should equal 5 because some idiot wrote it once.
• You seriously are falling back behind the weakest of weak arguments for validating PIS feats. "Well it happened, so it's valid" is willfully disregarding how completely stupid something is. Why are you even in the debate forums? The forums are specifically meant for debates on what should be able to happen. GTFO if you can't understand what PIS is or why PIS feats have no place in debate forums. I bet you think Batman should beat Spectre because he did it once in the comics.

@erik: Comparing it to math doesn't work. This is comics. These are fictional characters in a fictional world so technically anything can happen. The math comparison doesn't work. Writers and the companies completely dictate what these characters do. You are just using PIS because you don't like something.

Its better to debate with actual feats than simply what you think is possible. What actually happened is possible because it happened. That's not a weak argument at all. How are feats being used a weak argument? Huh? You say its PIS and I say its not. Simple.

PS no it doesn't mean batman can beat spectre, it simply means that batman can kick spectre.

After reading the argument, I would have to agree with Erik on this point. PIS is generally when a character does something that they wouldn't normally be able to do because of plot. An example of this would be Green Lantern going in for a punch in Identity crisis to fight Deathstroke when he could have easily just used a light construct. However, using Lantern at his consistent potential wouldn't have allowed Deathstroke to do what he did.

The problem with PIS feats is that to use them, you have to greatly exaggerate a comic character's abilities at the cost of lowballing another.

@cable_extreme: I know what PIS is. But like I have been saying this is off topic.

I would like to point something out, Slade in new 52 is above peak human in stats, and even explains it in his first issue. Even classified as a metahuman. I would estimate Slade's strength (which is enhanced by his suit) to be around 5 tons.

Also his fight with Lobo, new 52 Lobo has been drastically retconned with his pre-52 version. Also Slade didn't fight him by himself, he had the help of The Omegas, and Zealot.

Last but not least, I do not understand why New 52 Deathstroke was brought up, perhaps you could explain the context to why he is in this thread. He is not relevant to either Cassandra or Logan.

I would recommend explaining why your argument, or the specific instance you are referencing isn't PIS, such as using other feats which is consistent with that.