#1 Posted by Elm (63 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine (Bone Claw)

Vs

Cassandra Cain

Rules - Morals on, standard equipment and weapon, 20 feet away.

who would win?

#2 Edited by jashro44 (19756 posts) - - Show Bio

If wolverine has his healing factor he will win pretty much every time. There isn't much cassandra can really do. Without his healing factor I give 6-7/10 to cassandra. She has some pretty ridiculous feats of skill and speed.

#3 Posted by Elm (63 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

If wolverine has his healing factor he will win pretty much every time. There isn't much cassandra can really do. Without his healing factor I give 6-7/10 to cassandra. She has some pretty ridiculous feats of skill and speed.

She kinda beat Deathstroke and he has a healing factor

#4 Posted by jashro44 (19756 posts) - - Show Bio

@elm said:

@jashro44 said:

If wolverine has his healing factor he will win pretty much every time. There isn't much cassandra can really do. Without his healing factor I give 6-7/10 to cassandra. She has some pretty ridiculous feats of skill and speed.

She kinda beat Deathstroke and he has a healing factor

She never really beat Slade. Her first fight she was dominating, her second fight he was toying with her, 3rd fight Slade stated that he has to get inside her head to beat her. They go back in fourth but there hasn't ever been a winner. Also all though Slades healing factor is good its not as good as wolverines. I don't see her putting bone claw wolverine down with her standard gear....

#5 Posted by Cable_Extreme (8639 posts) - - Show Bio

Um I am actually going with cassidra cain due to Wolverine not having adamantium. Cassidra cain is imo more skilled and should take the majority.

#6 Posted by Pokeysteve (8080 posts) - - Show Bio

She has the strength to kill a regular human in one shot. Don't see why she can't at least KO him. His durability varies from writer to writer.

#7 Posted by jashro44 (19756 posts) - - Show Bio

Even bone claw wolverine has basically ran through gun fire and has been slammed between cars before IIRC. Pressure points wont work. If she can KO him its going to take a lot where as with wolverine not so much (granted cassandras pain tolerance is extremely impressive but still).

#8 Edited by zr0c00l (856 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: hes been pressure pointed more than once.... Just saying. Also been one shotted by dd crushing his throat. She can win, but probably doesnt.

#9 Posted by jashro44 (19756 posts) - - Show Bio

@zr0c00l said:

@jashro44: hes been pressure pointed more than once.... Just saying. Also been one shotted by dd crushing his throat. She can win, but probably doesnt.

No he has resisted pressure points multiple times. The daredevil throat crush was written by Garth Ennis who has admitted to not liking wolverine as a character. Thats why wolverine always gets humiliated when Ennis is writing.

He resisted pressure points by Shingen after he had been poisoned during claremonts run, IIRC when Echo tried to use pressure points those didn't work either, and then there is the elektra moment in enemy of the state where wolverine healed from the pressure points (admittedly it took a few seconds but still).

#10 Edited by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Cassie could KO him without much effort, he really isn't half as skilled as her.

#11 Posted by Cyberzombie_Hatchetman (274 posts) - - Show Bio

Bone claw Wolverine is way faster than adamantium Wolverine and his healing factor is supercharged because it's not constantly fighting the adamantium poisioning. The bone claws themselves are strong enough to rip through metal doors and even if he breaks a bone it will heal almost instantly. Against any street leveler the bone claw Wolverine is an upgrade. The adamantium only becomes a benefit instead of a hinderance when Logan is fighting city level and higher foes.

#12 Edited by Wolverine08 (38838 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine can match her in regards to skill and can tank anything she throws at him. Wolverine wins.

#13 Posted by SlimJ87D (9338 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme: @jashro44: @pokeysteve: Bone claw Wolverine's healing factor is better than Adamantium Claw Wolverine. Don't forget that Wolverine's healing factor is slightly dampened due to it constantly fighting metal poisoning from the adamantium. He may not be as durable but he can recover faster.

Think of it as your health bar in a video game. With adamantium would just slow the rate it would go down but it will regenerate at a medium rate. Without adamantium, it will go down faster but regenerate even faster.

So this just changes his fighting style. Without adamantium, if he received any damage, he would have to go on the defensive for a little bit to quickly recover quicker. But if he had adamantium then he would have to avoid things like nerv strikes, throat chops, etc. Things that have put him down before.

Lastly, lets also not forget that without adamantium, Wolverine is a whole 50% lighter, therefore he will be much more faster and agile.

So there are pros and cons with and without adamantium. Honestly, against street levelers that are fast, a bone Wolverine is better off than a adamantium wolverine because a adamantium wolverine is slower, won't heal as fast and is susceptible to street leveler skills like nerv strikes and throat chops. Without adamantium he can avoid these kinds of strikes better and can recover from these kinds of strikes faster.

#14 Edited by OhItsThatGuy (791 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine. Too strong, skilled, and durable.

#15 Posted by Pokeysteve (8080 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: I considered that. His healing factor should be at it's peak. Do we have anything to show how much better it is without the metal? Just curious. He's so lean, it should be easy for her to read him. I don't believe he has meta level speed either so she could still dodge his attacks. I don't think the Adamantium is 50% of his weight. I thought it was closer to a third. Not having that makes his bones breakable and makes him weaker as the baseline strength to deal with the metal needs to be higher.

#16 Posted by God_Spawn (37355 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine.

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#17 Posted by sync1 (2857 posts) - - Show Bio

Cassandra Cain

#18 Edited by God_Spawn (37355 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve said:

@slimj87d: I considered that. His healing factor should be at it's peak. Do we have anything to show how much better it is without the metal? Just curious. He's so lean, it should be easy for her to read him. I don't believe he has meta level speed either so she could still dodge his attacks. I don't think the Adamantium is 50% of his weight. I thought it was closer to a third. Not having that makes his bones breakable and makes him weaker as the baseline strength to deal with the metal needs to be higher.

I wouldn't say his healing factor is better, he just heals faster without the adamantium. So take any outlandish feat he keeps pulling out healing wise and he'd regenerate faster. And Logan isn't listed as having any official super speed, but I find it pretty clear his feats suggest he does. He's already almost as fast as Spider-Man by his own admission, so I'd say at the very least he is at least in the enhanced category. He's tagged Kaine with his Other enhancements and Kaine has even remarked on his speed. He's also tagged Speed Demon, Gorgon, Quicksilver, etc before. So he's been able to tag people with legitimate superhuman speed and reflexes, or people who have been able to tag speedsters. And without the adamantium he tends to fight with his skill more often and Cassandra isn't completely untouchable adamantium laced bullets. Logan is already in her league anyway skill wise. And bone claw Logan has been shot up heavily by a team shooting him with adamantium bullets ran over by cars and was up relative quickly and he's been shown to tank hits from Roughhouse, Hulk, and Wendigo IIRC. And it seems consistent even with his kin since Daken has soaked hits from both the Thing and Skaar before without being KO'd. Him and X-23 both even tanked an explosion that took out part of a large building and were found conscious and healing, albeit being burnt down to a just muscle or melted skin. And his bone claws can still slice through steel and rock. So I don't really find Cassandra breaking his bones very easily or if she manages, they would heal virtually instantaneously.

But I do agree she can read him and dodge. But this isn't h2h and Cassandra doesn't really use gear all too often while Logan usually goes straight with the claws. I just find his damage soak and output would be too much for her.

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#19 Edited by God_Spawn (37355 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d:

nerv strikes and throat chops.

I feel like you should know better, Slim :P. Nerve strikes won't work and the throat chops won't either. He's healed through nerve strikes instantly before and the only time they really worked were Ennis. Shingen's, Echo's, Psylocke's, and were virtually useless and the only one that did something was Elektra and that was a completely different case vs just a regular nerve strike since she stuck sais into his body and once she was knocked off, Logan was right back. And his windpipe and throat have been impaled and slashed enough times to where he doesn't sell it too much to counter any points when they have worked. He didn't fall into spasms because Gorgon, with his 2 ton strength, elbowed him in the throat, nor did he get KO'd. He didn't fall unconscious or spasm out when Gorgon stabbed a sword through his throat and pinned him to a wall and was just struggling to get it out. He didn't have a seizure when X-23 slashed his throat open and he healed the very next panel of the same page and was only angry. He healed virtually instantly when Veranke/Spider-Woman stabbed him in the throat with his own claw and she is much stronger than Logan so not much he could have done to counter and when he pulled his claws out, he healed near instantly and was ready to stab her if not for Luke Cage. He didn't fall unconscious when Daken slashed his throat open and he healed the next page and to me it seemed like he was more concerned about his son's choice of path in life based on his thoughts at the time, even though he did fall on the floor holding is throat. I know there are a few instances where he has been messed up because someone attacked his throat, like said Daken instance, but it is by no means to be considered much of a weakness and it isn't anything he hasn't shown to overcome quick enough to where it isn't much of a factor just as many times, if not more so, than when they have. I think they pretty much even out whether they work or not making it somewhat questionable.

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#20 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (5182 posts) - - Show Bio

Love Cassie but wolverine takes this.

#21 Posted by New_World_Order (12563 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine

#22 Posted by dondave (34585 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

If wolverine has his healing factor he will win pretty much every time. There isn't much cassandra can really do. Without his healing factor I give 6-7/10 to cassandra. She has some pretty ridiculous feats of skill and speed.

#23 Posted by Enzeru (2954 posts) - - Show Bio

She has the strength to kill a regular human in one shot. Don't see why she can't at least KO him. His durability varies from writer to writer.

Spider-Man is a 7-9 tonner and couldn't K.O. Wolverine, even though he threw everything at him that he had.
WW Hulk was not able to K.O. him with just one shot and he needed few to scramble Wolverine's head strong enough to render him helpless.

People underestimate what the healing factor lets you do.
It's stated that Deadpool has some kind of super strenght and the same applies for Wolverine, since there would be no other chance for Wolverine to jump that high and move that fast with all the Adamantium. Yeah, the Adamantium is lighter, than you might think, but it should still be heavy enough to slow him down, but it doesn't. Take away his Adamantium and he should be even faster.
Because of his healing factor he simply doesn't tire as fast as others and especially as fast as someone, who wears body kevlar and different gadgets like you would expect it from Batgirl.
The healing factor overall reduces the pain Wolverine feels, because in theory his nerves should get healed instantly.

#24 Posted by SlimJ87D (9338 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: I think the main point of my post was that Cassandra is fighting a worst case scenario Wolverine. One that heals faster and will be much faster. Her main advantages over people that are stronger than her are her speed and muscle reading. But Wolverine without adamantium is probably much faster than she is.

@pokeysteve: He weighs around 190 lbs without adamantium. With Adamantium he weighs a little over 300 lbs according to all his handbook entries. That's a big difference.

#25 Edited by Cable_Extreme (8639 posts) - - Show Bio

@enzeru said:

@pokeysteve said:

She has the strength to kill a regular human in one shot. Don't see why she can't at least KO him. His durability varies from writer to writer.

Spider-Man is a 7-9 tonner and couldn't K.O. Wolverine, even though he threw everything at him that he had.

WW Hulk was not able to K.O. him with just one shot and he needed few to scramble Wolverine's head strong enough to render him helpless.

People underestimate what the healing factor lets you do.

It's stated that Deadpool has some kind of super strenght and the same applies for Wolverine, since there would be no other chance for Wolverine to jump that high and move that fast with all the Adamantium. Yeah, the Adamantium is lighter, than you might think, but it should still be heavy enough to slow him down, but it doesn't. Take away his Adamantium and he should be even faster.

Because of his healing factor he simply doesn't tire as fast as others and especially as fast as someone, who wears body kevlar and different gadgets like you would expect it from Batgirl.

The healing factor overall reduces the pain Wolverine feels, because in theory his nerves should get healed instantly.

Well, that was Adamantium wolverine, and Cassidra cain can ko him with proper attacks like neck snap.

#26 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

Logan wins but Cass makes him work for it.

#27 Posted by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (4917 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolvie with ease

#28 Posted by XiiX (7458 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine more often than not.

#29 Edited by God_Spawn (37355 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: Gotcha. Thanks for the clear up then.

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#30 Edited by ImNemotheGemini (845 posts) - - Show Bio

From the arguments presented do far.. I'm convinced James takes this handily !

#31 Edited by jashro44 (19756 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: Agreed. All though on the subject of speed I think that is debatable or maybe cassandra might have the advantage.

#32 Posted by Dark_Slayor (212 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: How isn't Wolverine nearly half as skilled as Cassie?

#33 Posted by robertloucksjr (1671 posts) - - Show Bio

I remember bone-claw wolverine getting hit by a truck, received all kinds of broken bones and internal injuries, and he was healed by the time his body hit the ground.

Cassie just can't put him down even for a KO.

#34 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6180 posts) - - Show Bio

In the absence of WIS, Wolverine with relative ease.

Bone Wolverine out skilled Shang Chi in three panels, so his skill is not to be passed over. That said, skill is not the reason I said "with ease", as Cassandra would tit for tat Logan on that score. However, this is the same Bone Wolverine that got run over and crushed by a truck (every bone and organ in his body crushed) and was up and running in less than a second. The Bone Wolverine who ate hundreds of rounds of adamantium laced bullets without slowing down. Who Xavier clearly stated the only way to kill him, was via decapitation while ensuring the head remain removed from the body for a prolonged period of time.

He'd smile through most of what Cassandra could throw his way. No peak human can throw a punch landing with more impact than a bullet ... and Bone Wolverine eats bullets without flinching. I don't see Cassandra KO'ing Bone Wolverine before going down. No way.

#35 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: How isn't Wolverine nearly half as skilled as Cassie?

Cassie has beaten Lady Shiva. When's the last time Wolverine has beaten someone like Shiva?

#36 Posted by Tracy (143 posts) - - Show Bio

@elm said:

Wolverine (Bone Claw)

Vs

Cassandra Cain

Rules - Morals on, standard equipment and weapon, 20 feet away.

who would win?

Wolverine, removing the adatainum means he is quicker, faster and demonstrates more fighting skills. His healing factor increases by a margin, Cassie here is probably at a worse disadvantage than the "original" Wolverine

#37 Posted by Wolverine08 (38838 posts) - - Show Bio

James 10/10.

#38 Edited by TheAmazingImmortalMan (2675 posts) - - Show Bio

Cassandra IMO is more skilled than my man Logan. She hangs with the best as far a h2h goes claiming victories over Batman, Slade and Shiva in the past. Based on skill alone yea Cain has the upper hand but that does not mean Wolverine is not gonna flaunt some of his skills, he is faster and has that nasty healing factor which is now a lot faster since he has no adamantium poisoning him, everything Cassandra dishes out Logan is gonna tank and all it takes is 1 or 2 good blows with his claws and it's over for her, so I will say Logan 9/10.

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#39 Posted by RBT (4120 posts) - - Show Bio

@elm: Healing factor available to Logan or not?

If Logan has his hf, then he takes the majority. Otherwise Cass would take the majority.

#40 Posted by Wolverine08 (38838 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

@elm: Healing factor available to Logan or not?

If Logan has his hf, then he takes the majority. Otherwise Cass would take the majority.

It said standard equipment. Standard equipment for James is the healing factor frankly.

#41 Edited by Wolverine08 (38838 posts) - - Show Bio

@theamazingimmortalman said:

Cassandra IMO is more skilled than my man Logan. She hangs with the best as far a h2h goes claiming victories over Batman, Slade and Shiva in the past. Based on skill alone yea Cain has the upper hand but that does not mean Wolverine is not gonna flaunt some of his skills, he is faster and has that nasty healing factor which is now a lot faster since he has no adamantium poisoning him, everything Cassandra dishes out Logan is gonna tank and all it takes is 1 or 2 good blows with his claws and it's over for her, so I will say Logan 9/10.

I wouldn't say she is more skilled than Logan. She has stalemated Deathstroke at most, Batman did stalemate her as well when both were drugged, but she did beat Shiva. In terms of technical skill, Wolverine can go blow for blow with Cassandra when looking at their technical showings. If Logan was left with no healing factor, she'd pull a slight majority through move reading. She's sitting around Batman's level of skill, and the move reading is usually the extra X factor that lets her pull out the majority.

#42 Posted by RBT (4120 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: HF would be the reason Logan takes majority here. Otherwise not.

#43 Posted by Wolverine08 (38838 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

@wolverine08: HF would be the reason Logan takes majority here. Otherwise not.

Yeah, Cassandra would get a majority over him with no healing factor due to her move reading.

#44 Posted by Cable_Extreme (8639 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

@wolverine08: HF would be the reason Logan takes majority here. Otherwise not.

Yeah, Cassandra would get a majority over him with no healing factor due to her move reading.

Well, to be honest, I would say Logan has better stats than Batman and Lady Shiva, so it would probably equal out imo.

#45 Posted by RBT (4120 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@rbt said:

@wolverine08: HF would be the reason Logan takes majority here. Otherwise not.

Yeah, Cassandra would get a majority over him with no healing factor due to her move reading.

Well, to be honest, I would say Logan has better stats than Batman and Lady Shiva, so it would probably equal out imo.

In physicals?

#46 Posted by Wolverine08 (38838 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@rbt said:

@wolverine08: HF would be the reason Logan takes majority here. Otherwise not.

Yeah, Cassandra would get a majority over him with no healing factor due to her move reading.

Well, to be honest, I would say Logan has better stats than Batman and Lady Shiva, so it would probably equal out imo.

Didn't actually factor that in honestly. That could actually even things out.

#47 Edited by Wolverine08 (38838 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

@cable_extreme said:

@wolverine08 said:

@rbt said:

@wolverine08: HF would be the reason Logan takes majority here. Otherwise not.

Yeah, Cassandra would get a majority over him with no healing factor due to her move reading.

Well, to be honest, I would say Logan has better stats than Batman and Lady Shiva, so it would probably equal out imo.

In physicals?

Yeah, speed may be debatable, but Logan most definitely has better strength feats than either Shiva or Bruce.

#48 Posted by RBT (4120 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: I don't doubt it. Cass has some very good speed feats. Not to mention her skill and move reading. zslade was having a hard time against her. I don't think Logan can take majority without his HF.

#49 Posted by Cable_Extreme (8639 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

@cable_extreme said:

@wolverine08 said:

@rbt said:

@wolverine08: HF would be the reason Logan takes majority here. Otherwise not.

Yeah, Cassandra would get a majority over him with no healing factor due to her move reading.

Well, to be honest, I would say Logan has better stats than Batman and Lady Shiva, so it would probably equal out imo.

In physicals?

Yeah, speed may be debatable, but Logan most definitely has better strength feats than either Shiva or Bryce.

Yeah, he has more speed imo, but notice Deathstroke's fight with Batman, if someone is to think Batman had a skill superiority, it was rather useless due to Slade's increased strength. It is the same reason why Batman does so well against Lady Shiva who has more skill imo. So while the move reading would be rather hard to overcome, Logans stats such as strength would be hard to overcome as well.

#50 Edited by Wolverine08 (38838 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Wolverine can match Cassandra tit for tat in terms of raw technical skill and physical speed based on his consistent showings. The X factor for Cassandra would most likely be body reading. I really don't see why Cassandra giving Slade some trouble is relevant to her winning when James would get a majority over Deathstroke himself.