Wolverine and Spider-Man versus Their Gaunlet (PLZ READ)

@super_soldierxii: @laflux: The thing people forget about lizard is he can summon reptiles and attack logan with them... Lizard is much stronger and faster than is logan also..

I agree that Lizard is much stronger than Wolverine. But again, strength levels are not the rock to Wolverine's scissors. Blunt force trauma is Logan's bread and butter (low end showings notwithstanding).

Lizard "moves" much faster than Logan (far more mobile) but his combat reflexes are, much like Parker's, not out of Logan's depths at all. Wolverine's reflexes have had Kaine back peddling. That, and Wolverine's top tier skill will go far to abridge.

Summoning reptiles should prove much more than an inconvenience, but any kind of a distraction against a beast like Lizard could prove telling I admit.

ok so I'm not sure who has been posting these scans, but like 90% of them aren't valid to this gauntlet. A bunch are of AoA Sabretooth, who is noticeably stronger than 616 Sabretooth. There are also a few of Ultimate Wolverine, which are also not valid.

@tracy said:

@newecho said:

To be fair,, some of these guys beat wolverine and are actually xmen rogues...

1) Omega-Red - Loses as he has the ultimate kill

2) Dead-pool (Slade has all his standard weapons, the fight can be KO or to the death) - wins as he is to fast and strong

Even if the fight is to the death?

3) Cyber - wins as cyber is to weak and slow

Even if Peter has morals and Cyber doesn't?

4) Sabre-tooth (upgraded) - still wins even with upgrades...

The Sabre-tooth versus Spider-Man battles has always been a tough one, the reason why I use the upgraded Sabre-tooth is because of his.....well....you guess it.....upgrades. Some sites state he is around class 20 to 25 tons (almost similar to the upgraded Spidey) while some state that he is around class 5 tons. Most people in comic vine will state that Marvel handbooks are not always credible and that you should look at the character's feats, now like I said, I'm not really sure where Creed is in the strength department but for arguments sake I'll give Peter the strength advantage.

Anyway this battle for me is actually similar to Wolverine vs Spider-Man battles where Peter wins via webbing, now the key difference here is that Creed has the strength to break free from Peter's webs. Now you say Sabre tooth looses to Spidey right? How? Webbing or Spidey actually knocking him out with his bare fists? To be honest (as I've usually backed Creed in Sabretooth versus Spiderman fights depending on the OP's rule), I think Creed (much similar to Wolverine vs Spider-Man) would win against Peter if Parker engaged him in H2H. I know Creed could take Peter's punches and the upgraded Sabre tooth has feats that suggest he should suggest he can take punches from Spidey because of his superior H-F. Here are the scans below where Creed takes on She-Hulk:

I'm not sure which upgrades Creed got here but what if we were to use this Sabre-tooth?

5) Mystique - doesn't belong fighting spidey

Well wouldn't she shape-shift into Spidey herself or someone who essentially into powerhouses who can beat Spidey like Thor or speedsters like Quick-Silver?

6) Rogue-house - is to slow to fight spidey

lol I forgot about that

7) Lady Death-strike or X-23 (since their similar too) - x23 could beat spidey with her skill and quickness,, Lady d has no shot

But wouldn't Spidey just web her like he would web Wolverine? I mean, he doesn't have to get physical with someone who is more skilled than him and could potentially end his career with those blades

8) The Blob- blob has no shot

Peter either, he can't knock him out......webbing as well out of the equation.

9) Magneto (Spidey here is blood lust)- Spidey doesn't belong fighting mags by himself,, he gets destroyed... The xmen and avengers have a hard time with him

lol, what if we give Peter prep or even has the Armour suit he got from Iron-Man in Civil War?

10) Nimrod (Spidey is blood lust)- He isn't of 616 universe?? but yeah he way outclasses wolvie and spidey at the same time...

I didn't know that, lol

he should have said that in OP. Not many read through a whole page

@tracy: only non canon stories I noticed were the sabertooth ones,, but it didn't matter for the discussion we were having...We established a baseline for creed, which was all that mattered to me..

@super_soldierxii: @laflux: The thing people forget about lizard is he can summon reptiles and attack logan with them... Lizard is much stronger and faster than is logan also..

@tracy: I really don't know,, I am about a year behind.. It is hard to keep up with the alternate titles and timelines too as they bleed into the main universe alot... a great example is old man logan, it happened in the wolverine solo series but its not canon to the 616 universe..i think after, secret wars then we should get a better continuity. ..

@tracy: the quicksilver one is from ultimate x-men.

Oh, thanks

dude, don't debate for a character if you don't read the character.

Amigo, I've read Wolverine comics before I even knew about the character (lol). Trust me, your statement should apply to a lot of Wolverine supporters on Comic Vine. Trust me, if you go to the Wolverine versus Spider-Man threads, versus Namor, versus Hercules, even Thor.....you'll know why.

reading actual stories> looking up random scans online.

I don't just look up random scans on-line (even though I read comics on-line though lol), I read the comics. Every scan I posted here (except the Sabre-tooth versus She-Hulk) I can point out the story that took place even before the event happened. This is me basically telling I read the actual stories, not just battlesin comics.

(that goes for all you kids that just panel scan on feat pages)

LOL, this message should be passed to 90% of Wolverine fan boys on Comic Vine

and for the record, ultimate wolverine is a BADASS. check him out

He is bad-ass, kind-a reminds me of Clint Eastwood of some sort. But I still dig the original Logan, Ultimate Wolverine is almost like reading a Hugh Jack-man Wolverine (if you know what I mean)

@Tracy: Secret wars are going blow up the marvel universe,, I just hope its a complete reboot and they don't cherry pick like dc did or they will be in the same mess dc is.. @dathomiesilversurfer: he can have discussions with people, which is what we were doing...

Cool

Bear in mind, feast have proven that Wolverine's healing factor is above the Lizard's...even if it is a small margin. Current Lizard is class what? 25 tons? 30 tons? 35? Even if that is the case, Wolverine's H-F is only taxed when he is hit a class 50 ton and above, I believe this was stated Marvel writers who wrote the Frank Miller Wolverine's, but I also believe Logan himself has stated something similiar. I can't find the comic book reference but maybe this can help:

The thing with me when it comes to the Lizard versus Wolverine is what I look at in terms of who has the potential to put the other down (permanentlyif I may use this)

As with the previous threads of the Lizard versus Wolverine, most of the arguments that Lizard supporters used was that the Lizard blitzed Spidey who Wolverine looses to......in other words they A-B-C logic. Now to an extent they do have a point, but then the thing most of them forget is that Spidey beats Wolverine via webbing......not physical force. The Lizard doesn't have webbing to utilize here, physical force was well will not be enough to beat Wolverine.

Yes he can blitz Wolverine, but that still won't knock Wolverine out. At this point we in a debate on who wins between Wolverine and the Lizard, we've come to some form of agreement with Sabre-tooth versus Spidey. Now my question to you is, how does the Lizard beat Wolverine?

Bear in mind, feast have proven that Wolverine's healing factor is above the Lizard's...even if it is a small margin. Current Lizard is class what? 25 tons? 30 tons? 35? Even if that is the case, Wolverine's H-F is only taxed when he is hit a class 50 ton and above, I believe this was stated Marvel writers who wrote the Frank Miller Wolverine's, but I also believe Logan himself has stated something similiar. I can't find the comic book reference but maybe this can help:

This was the issue I believe it came from, but I I hope the above scan can give you a link to the actual comic

Ehh, I think that it takes a high level of strength to be able to consistently put Logan down, but the thing is, Lizard isn't just going to be punching Logan. He's going to be channelling his strength through his claws and teeth to tax his healing factor.

You know that's actually a good point, I never thought about it in that context. Now the reason why I say Wolverine beats the Lizard is because if he lands a well placed hit with his claws, he can defeat the Lizard. How do you defeat the Lizard by the way? Does he only get beat if he looses his head? Or what if Wolverine cuts off his tail? Like the scans (Wolverine in a brawl with the Lizard) I posted, Logan cut off his tail and the battle ended there.....Lizard did grow a new tail....but he was in pain in the process. I'm not totally vouching Wolverine to win, because you raised a pretty good point about the Lizard having to use his strength clawing Wolverine and biting him. The fight can go either way like New Echo mentioned, but I'm leaning towards Wolverine because of his skill and the hard metal that I believe will be enough to get a drop on the Lizard. I believe Logan has a chance of beating the Lizard as New Echo believes the Lizard beats Wolverine. There is no right or wrong answer, we are just debating which is what makes this thread exciting.

Plus Lizard might be close to 50 tonnes anyway, considering he's stated to be 3 times stronger than Spider-Man, who is around the 20 ton mark these days by feats, as well as throwing Peter miles away with a simple swish of his tail.

Okay so the Lizard is near class 50 tons then, but I thought the only time Peter was a around class 20-25 tons was when Marvel writers gave him an upgrade after his death with Morlun (where in the process Peter's spider sense was removed).

And then once his spider-sense was brought back his strength was reduced but but anyway like you said, the Lizard should be near class 50 tons which is where even I'll admit it's going to be problem for Logan. But like I said, if he can land his claws on the right shot (since he is fast enough and skilled enough) then Wolverine has a shot of beating the Lizard.

Ehh, I think that it takes a high level of strength to be able to consistently put Logan down, but the thing is, Lizard isn't just going to be punching Logan. He's going to be channelling his strength through his claws and teeth to tax his healing factor. Plus Lizard might be close to 50 tonnes anyway, considering he's stated to be 3 times stronger than Spider-Man, who is around the 20 ton mark these days by feats, as well as throwing Peter miles away with a simple swish of his tail.

@tracy said:

@newecho said:

@super_soldierxii: @laflux: The thing people forget about lizard is he can summon reptiles and attack logan with them... Lizard is much stronger and faster than is logan also..

The thing with me when it comes to the Lizard versus Wolverine is what I look at in terms of who has the potential to put the other down (permanentlyif I may use this)

As with the previous threads of the Lizard versus Wolverine, most of the arguments that Lizard supporters used was that the Lizard blitzed Spidey who Wolverine looses to......in other words they A-B-C logic. Now to an extent they do have a point, but then the thing most of them forget is that Spidey beats Wolverine via webbing......not physical force. The Lizard doesn't have webbing to utilize here, physical force was well will not be enough to beat Wolverine.

Yes he can blitz Wolverine, but that still won't knock Wolverine out. At this point we in a debate on who wins between Wolverine and the Lizard, we've come to some form of agreement with Sabre-tooth versus Spidey. Now my question to you is, how does the Lizard beat Wolverine?

Bear in mind, feast have proven that Wolverine's healing factor is above the Lizard's...even if it is a small margin. Current Lizard is class what? 25 tons? 30 tons? 35? Even if that is the case, Wolverine's H-F is only taxed when he is hit a class 50 ton and above, I believe this was stated Marvel writers who wrote the Frank Miller Wolverine's, but I also believe Logan himself has stated something similiar. I can't find the comic book reference but maybe this can help:

This was the issue I believe it came from, but I I hope the above scan can give you a link to the actual comic

Spidey doesn't try to beat logan with physical force as webbing is his non lethal way to deal with him... He would have to beat logan a lot harder than he is willing to actually put him down.. That is in peter's character...

But still, Parker can't beat him with just pure force. Weather or not he has morals, he can't beat Logan that way. The closest examples of seeing Peter punching Wolverine without holding back is the grave fight and the training session where Logan couldn't be knocked out. Peter beats Wolverine in most battles via his webbing, Logan wins against Peter in a brawl or street fight.

The lizard fight is made more difficult if connor's can't summon reptiles,, but you are reaching when you say wolverine's hf is only taxed by 50 tonners and above..

What? I was stating something that was written by one of the Marvel writers in the Frank Miller comics, then I posted the image to give you a reference of Logan himself stating how he is H-F is taxed when fighting powerhouses. Lol it wasn't my speculation considering Logan himself has been knocked out by guys who less than class 50 tons, street levels to be exact

He has been knocked many many many many times by much less than that.. Look at almost all of his fights with Cap....

lol I can list you countless street levels who have knocked him out, I think the infamous one is where he gets knocked out by Mr. X right? Bear in mind his H-F wasn't 100% when he faced Mr. X and he faced a bunch of super soldiers who taxed his H-F and defeated them.....where Mr. X (making his first appearance) came in humiliate Logan....knocking him out in the process. But when the two had a rematch Logan was the one who humiliated him, lol

Dare-Devil is another street level I believe who knocked out Logan with a jab to the throat, but that comic was written by Garth something (a writer who admitted was trying to low ball Logan) and I believe it's from the Ultimate Marvel power pack series.......which is non-canon.

Oh yes Captain America, bro, almost all of Captain America's fights with Wolverine the consecutive victory has always gone to Wolverine. Cap's only win against Wolverine was in Enemy of the State where Cap bashed a taxed out Logan in the sewers and knocked him out. I'm not going to try posting the scans where Wolverine and Cap have fought, I think it's pretty obvious that Logan won the majority of those fights.

To conclude, Wolverine can be knocked out street levels because who are martial artists because they know where to hit. Pressure points, key points, nerve holds etc. I think that's one of the ways to beat Wolverine, but even that is for another debate considering we have people who say pressure points work on Wolverine and some say they don't. Like I said, don't know

Anyway not trying to get to get off topic, how would this apply to the Lizard then? Lizard wouldn't use strategies skilled martial artists would use if they were to take Logan out, Lizard's form of fighting is slashing his tale at people, slashing them with his claws and biting them.....to some extent overpowering them with his strength. That's how he fights in most his battles, there is no skill there what so ever. And I'm pretty it should be too hard for Wolverine to figure the Lizard's form of fighting (since the battle will probably last long) and find a way to put the Lizard down. Logan is durable enough to take the Lizard's best hits and has his own abilities that should match up with the Lizard's abilities, the comic scans I posted just proved how a fight would go between Wolverine and the Lizard.

I am still trying to figure out if lizard can beat him tho without the distractions.. My gut says no tho...

Well a thread was created where the battle would take place in a jungle where the Lizard would call reptile life to help him but Wolverine still won that thread however, I'll have to admit then if the Lizard can summon reptiles than that for me is a different ball game because it sort becomes a handicap match for Logan.

@laflux:

Lizard would not be a TON faster than a non-jobbing Victor Creed (who has traditionally been billed as faster than Wolverine), but yeah, he's faster if he can move faster than Parker.

Victor's skill would abridge to a degree. Again, I'm only talking about classic Creed. Lizard would eat modern Creed for breakfast.

Ehh, Wolverine got into regular barfights with Roughouse, a 50 tonner, and consistently beat him (slugging it out). I disagree with using the 50 ton yardstick as a barometer to reach in order to state Lizard will KO Wolverine.

Ehh, those who traditionally KO Wolverine with any breadth of consistency have been in the class 100 mark (and even then they fail as often as they succeed - at least on the first punch). Lesser strength levels can certainly KO him (especially skilled fighters), just not consistently.

Ehh, this fight will be a slash fest. Clawing & biting, principally, with Lizard tossing Logan around for good measure with the aforementioned tail. I think Logan's healing factor can certainly cope. He's dealt with far, far more damage output in the form of major ballistics, katanas and etc.

Conversely, the adamantium & damage output Wolverine brings to the game seals the deal for me with Logan for a slight majortiy. Ehh, he'll take the thrashing, and will be carving Lizard up right back but with foot long claws that are far more akin to blades than anything else. Decapitation, dismemberment are both realities in this fight (in the absence of the Marvel's PG rating and plot).

Ehh ... ehh ... that is all. :P

@newecho:

Peter could knock him out,, it would just take forever especially if wolverine has adantmantium to absorb the blows... I definitely disagree about logan beats him in a brawl or streetfight... No matter how you score it,, If peter is fighting without story, then logan has no way to hit spidey.. Spidey is faster and has spider sense and yes I know he has hit spidey before,, but that doesn't mean he should be able to...Look at People who hit the flash who shouldn't...

The problem with that logic is you are assuming Parker is untouchable, and that this is how Marvel wants or intends him to be. Which is false.

Spider-Man gets hit all the time. Because spider-sense if far from infallible. Because his superhuman speed is far from unique in comic land. Spider-Man also lives in a world filled with supers, with their own skills and abilities, skills and abilities that challenge his avoidance to the max all the time.

You stating he shouldn't, is the same as me trying to bill Wolverine (to lend an example) as unstoppable. Wolverine can be dropped, and Spider-Man can be hit.

Comparing Spider-Man to the Flash as a blanket comment without context is not an intelligible point to be making either.

@tracy:

But still, Parker can't beat him with just pure force. Weather or not he has morals, he can't beat Logan that way. The closest examples of seeing Peter punching Wolverine without holding back is the grave fight and the training session where Logan couldn't be knocked out. Peter beats Wolverine in most battles via his webbing, Logan wins against Peter in a brawl or street fight.

Peter could knock him out,,

He can't knock him out with his bare hands, he has shown this comics and Wolverine has never-ever been knocked out. Unless if you saying he webs Wolverine in a certain way and shoves webs down his throat, then yes that is one way of beating Logan. With the webs, Spidey has many options of beating Logan.....as confirmed in Comic Vine.

it would just take forever especially if wolverine has adantmantium to absorb the blows

You said it yourself, it would take forever to knock him out....but the thing is Peter would never be able to knock him out. You seem to forget that when Peter is punching Wolverine, he is punching the hardest metal on earth....and in many instances Parker has complained feeling pain when punching Wolverine. Here is one example:

Peter is unloading on Wolverine with everything his got, and judging from his own words...."He can't seem to stop Logan from smiling." That's just one example of Parker going all out on Logan....with Logan showing no side effects.

If you still not convinced then look her below:

In a training session a pissed off Parker is unloading on Wolverine for cutting him on the chest, all Wolverine does is just block his hits (and notice that Parker exposes himself to be tagged by Logan). This also happens to be an upgraded Peter (maybe class 15 tons) and I can imagine if Parker did this to another street level who doesn't have Logan's H-F and hard skeleton, even if they blocked his hits.

... I definitely disagree about logan beats him in a brawl or streetfight... No matter how you score it

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here as well, what if Wolverine and Spidey were to fight each other without using their weapons? We remove Spidey's webs and we remove Logan's claws and the two engage maybe in a boxing duel or H2H. Who wins then? Wolverine wins then, as stated, and yes Logan will have a hard time tagging him but what if he does tag him? Logan's punches have proven to hurt Spidey, heck Logan's punches have hurt guys who greater durability than Parker. And Wolverine certianly when engaging Peter in H2H never had trouble tagging Peter, I think you are really under-restimating Logan's speed and over-estimating Parker's. The scans below prove otherwise:

Spidey and Wolverine are fighting on a roof-top, Peter engages Logan in H2H and throws the first punch. Logan dodges it, Peter throws another and Logan dodges it again (look at the position of Logan) which clearly is a skill and speed on Logan's part.

Logan back-hands Peter, notice the distance Parker is sent flying and comments "that hurts" which clearly shows you a hit from Logan does hurt. Notice the entire time Logan has a cigar in his mouth which basically tells me he isn't taking the fight too serieously, then the last part Peter does a "Superman-punch" (lol, not WWE Superstar Roman Reigns) which connects with Logan's jaw. What happens next? He should be knocked out right?

Logan scares Peter with his claws and kicks him in the gut, sending Peter flying again. He pulls his claws out and tells him he is ready for a fight.....also look he has a sharp grin on his face which shows he isn't going all out.

Now Parker's best way of beating Wolverine is doing something like this:

,, If peter is fighting without story, then logan has no way to hit spidey..

You can't always base things on story, I don't. Why? Because there are so many things that shouldn't happen in comics that do happen. People far faster than Spidey like Wonder Woman or Superman get tagged by bricks who don't even have super human speed. Wolverine himself who also has speed shouldn't be tagged by ordinary civilians in comics, but he is tagged. Or how about this one, my favourite. Bullets, no street level should be dodging them (no matter how skilled or peak they) but for some reason folks just dodge bullets with little trouble. Bullets job in comics, to a degree, the likes of Captain America (because of his enhanced speed), Deathtroke (being able to use 90% of his brain) and even Spider-Man (because of his spider-sense) are stretch to say at least they can dodge bullets with ease. People who should be dodging bullets are the likes of Quick-Silver, Superman, Speed-Demon, Wonder Woman and the Flash just naming a few because they actually have super human speed. Bullets are just jobbers in comics, hence why I say you can't always base things on story. Anyway moving on...

Spidey is faster and has spider sense and yes I know he has hit spidey before

Spidey's speed isn't something that should overwhelm Wolverine considering he isn't far behind in the speed department, the spider-sense is the tri-factor against Logan. Now the spider-sense should make it nearly impossible for Logan to tag Peter, this I can agree with. Now Peter will probably land 100 shots before Logan can land 10 or 1 to say the least, what comes into play here is stamina. At the some point is the fight drags Parker will eventually start to tire and he will get sloppy, Wolverine on the other hand will be in the same condition he was when he first fought Spidey. Spidey's dodging won't be 100% if the fight is still dragging and Logan can capitalize on that, and he doesn't have to knock Spidey out by punching....he can just use pressure points like he did to Kid Gladiator.

,, but that doesn't mean he should be able to...Look at People who hit the flash who shouldn't...

I've already spoken about this, Superman, the Flash, Wonder Woman, Quick-Silver and Speed Demon etc shouldn't be tagged even by a quarter of the Rogues they face....but their still tagged. If we were to apply things that happen in real life and place them in comics, then 99% of the stuff we see in DC and Marvel comics shouldn't be happening.

What? I was stating something that was written by one of the Marvel writers in the Frank Miller comics, then I posted the image to give you a reference of Logan himself stating how he is H-F is taxed when fighting powerhouses. Lol it wasn't my speculation considering Logan himself has been knocked out by guys who less than class 50 tons, street levels to be exact

Something stated by an author doesn't mean much when his feats say otherwise.. I actually thought you were using this as a basis for wolverine to not be knocked out... my bad...

Cool

lol I can list you countless street levels who have knocked him out, I think the infamous one is where he gets knocked out by Mr. X right? Bear in mind his H-F wasn't 100% when he faced Mr. X and he faced a bunch of super soldiers who taxed his H-F and defeated them.....where Mr. X (making his first appearance) came in humiliate Logan....knocking him out in the process. But when the two had a rematch Logan was the one who humiliated him, lol

Dare-Devil is another street level I believe who knocked out Logan with a jab to the throat, but that comic was written by Garth something (a writer who admitted was trying to low ball Logan) and I believe it's from the Ultimate Marvel power pack series.......which is non-canon.

Oh yes Captain America, bro, almost all of Captain America's fights with Wolverine the consecutive victory has always gone to Wolverine. Cap's only win against Wolverine was in Enemy of the State where Cap bashed a taxed out Logan in the sewers and knocked him out. I'm not going to try posting the scans where Wolverine and Cap have fought, I think it's pretty obvious that Logan won the majority of those fights.

To conclude, Wolverine can be knocked out street levels because who are martial artists because they know where to hit. Pressure points, key points, nerve holds etc. I think that's one of the ways to beat Wolverine, but even that is for another debate considering we have people who say pressure points work on Wolverine and some say they don't. Like I said, don't know

Actually dd has knocked him out another time other than the throat jab,,

The other fight you must be referring to is Enemy of the State where D-D bashed Wolverine with a dumbbell and Logan got impaled on a sword (however I'm not sure if he was knocked out). But if you want to use that as a reference then that's fine, because there is an issue where Wolverine and D-D have a brief fight and Logan pins D-D with a full nelson (think WWE Superstar Chris Master master locklol)

and I think the best one of these is When cap bashed his head in and knocked him out and that wasn't during enemy of the state.. I know wolverine got the best of cap in origins when he was looking for nuke, but he had to use that sword to gash his leg in to do it...

I'm not sure what it was (maybe Origins or something) but the fight you are talking about is where Wolverine took on Cap and part of the X-Men. His healing factor wasn't working properly but still he managed to have an edge over Cap, I'll let other Wolverine experts liberate on that story more

But you and I agree on why Martial artist can do this,, ie pressure points and knowledge of fighting but still they are way below 50 tonners which is what I thought you were saying would take to knock out Logan...

Cool, but like said,

Anyway not trying to get to get off topic, how would this apply to the Lizard then? Lizard wouldn't use strategies skilled martial artists would use if they were to take Logan out, Lizard's form of fighting is slashing his tale at people, slashing them with his claws and biting them.....to some extent overpowering them with his strength. That's how he fights in most his battles, there is no skill there what so ever. And I'm pretty it should be too hard for Wolverine to figure the Lizard's form of fighting (since the battle will probably last long) and find a way to put the Lizard down. Logan is durable enough to take the Lizard's best hits and has his own abilities that should match up with the Lizard's abilities, the comic scans I posted just proved how a fight would go between Wolverine and the Lizard.

I actually thought you were saying that it would take a 50 tonner and above to knock out wolverine.. He has been knocked out many times by force by much less...I would probably lean towards logan in a fight with lizard if lizard can't cause any distractions...

Ayt, what about Bone-claw Wolverine then against the Lizard?

@tracy: I will get to the rest of your post in a bit... but the cap fight was during civil war I am pretty sure but @super_soldierxii will probably know more context and remember the fight better... I was only using that as proof that wolverine can be knocked out by physical force tho and it really didn't have anything to do with cap vs wolverine...

@laflux:

Lizard would not be a TON faster than a non-jobbing Victor Creed (who has traditionally been billed as faster than Wolverine), but yeah, he's faster if he can move faster than Parker.

Victor's skill would abridge to a degree. Again, I'm only talking about classic Creed. Lizard would eat modern Creed for breakfast.

Current Lizard was speed blitzing spider-man. Peter only tagged Lizard because he was having a nervous breakdown (even than he was having a hard time). Wolverine would struggle just as much to tag him, more so if we are assuming Lizard is stable here. Lizard would slaughter sabretooth, especially current (not talking about jobbing Creed just Lizard in his most recent form).

I agree wolverine has a better chance against Lizard due to power set but I think current Lizard is a way tougher fight than sabretooth. If its classic Lizard Logan wins all though current Lizard is debatable as things stand.

I disagree with the overall synopsis of the striking bit. Simply because you are confounding how hard it is to hit Peter (grace of spider-sense), with Peter's ability to tag others who prove to be even faster than he is.

Peter being fast and hard to hit are mostly due to spider-sense. Of course his superhuman speed plays a significant part, but that's not what confounds folks like Wolverine or Iron Fist and their ilk. Lizard does not have spider-sense. Ergo, he'll be easier for the martial masters to tag than Spider-Man is despite his greater speed. He'll also be easier for said martial masters to tag, than he would be for a very novice hand to hand expert like Parker.

In short, Wolverine's skill should mean he has an easier time tagging Lizard than Parker when melee is engaged. Not a harder time. At the very, very least it equalizes things. We're talking striking where pure speed (while definitely important) is secondary to skill. Let's not pretend that Wolverine is an inferior striker than Spider-Man is now.

Though I do agree Lizard is a tough fight and could probably fly either way. Let's face it though, his speed is the only real reason Wolverine struggles at all. Creed, as we know him today, gets decimated by Lizard. Classic Creed is not too far off Lizard's pedigree though.

@jashro44: Can current lizard still summon reptiles?? I think that plays a huge part in a fight with logan as they will serve as distraction for him... If he can't then wolverine should win in a classic match up...

@tracy:

Ok the bullet thing is more about timing not that they are faster than bullets.. However spidey is supposed to be faster than bullets and he sees things faster or he sees thing slowed down ie if I threw a punch at him it should look like its in slow motion..

But still, even if it's about timing, you still shouldn't be able to dodge a bullet....do you know how fast a bullet travels? Even if you are skilled as Bruce Lee and someone points a gun to you, there is no way you should dodge it because you'd probably get shot doing your Matrix stuff (lol). An arrow is at least understandable but even that is a stretch, peak levels in comics don't just dodge the aim of the gun.....especially when they are performing back and front flips while bullets pass them (like what Spidey does). Bullets are just jobbers in comics, because body builders like Bane dodge them too.

Now as for Spidey I'm not really sure if he is faster than a bullet, I know Superman is. Now considering that Peter is 15 times faster than a human, his reflexes are 20 times of that an gymnastic, 40 times more agile than an Olympic and of course has the spider-sense then yes I think it makes sense for him to dodge bullets and why people should almost move slow motion (like the first Spider-Man movie) when they try to strike him. I don't really have an issue with Spidey, it makes sense for him to do the things he does.

A few other characters such as brubaker's cap kind of does the same thing..

Ah Captain America, well from what I know Cap is enhanced which basically puts him in between peak and meta-human so for him to dodge bullets (to an extent) is kinda understandable. I don't know with his enhanced speed how many times he is faster than a human though considering he is said to run between 45 mph to 60 while Peter can run between 75 mph to 100.

.The thing you have to remember is spidey is super in speed. I understand that we shouldn't use story but my point is that spidey is really so much faster than street levelers that no matter the skill,,

Okay I understand what you trying to say here, most street levels (martial artists) shouldn't be tagging Spidey no matter how skilled they are. Marvel writers sometimes just forget that when they place Spidey in battles, they forget about his speed, agility, reflexes and the spider-sense. But to be honest with you Echo, even if we remove Peter's spider-sense, he still shouldn't be tagged by street levels. 15 times faster than a human, 20 times more agile, 40 times human reflexes......I mean that itself should be enough for almost every street level in Marvel not to tag Spidey. But you are right, it's usually a plot or story for Spidey to get tagged. But what I've noticed that guys like Dare-Devil (who is classified to peak) when fighting Peter is always showing more reflexes and agility than Peter which is what I don't understand. Almost every comic D-D and Spidey you will always see D-D performing more agility and reflexes like here below:

See what I mean? And that's just the tip of the ice berg

he should be able to dodge but that is where the plot or story comes in... I do get where you are coming from tho...

Agreed, remember, as for Wolverine.....how many times faster would you say Spidey is faster than him? Because remember what I said, I said that the likes of Spidey and the Lizard should dodge the majority of Wolverine's punches and the only time Logan should tag Peter is if Peter starts to tire (determines how long the fight goes) and starts to get sloppy. If Peter is fresh or at least let's say he is fighting to the best of his abilities then Logan shouldn't be really tagging him, unless of course if the fight expands over 30 minutes or an hour then does Logan have a shot.

Spidey's speed isn't something that should overwhelm Wolverine considering he isn't far behind in the speed department, the spider-sense is the tri-factor against Logan. Now the spider-sense should make it nearly impossible for Logan to tag Peter, this I can agree with. Now Peter will probably land 100 shots before Logan can land 10 or 1 to say the least, what comes into play here is stamina. At the some point is the fight drags Parker will eventually start to tire and he will get sloppy, Wolverine on the other hand will be in the same condition he was when he first fought Spidey. Spidey's dodging won't be 100% if the fight is still dragging and Logan can capitalize on that, and he doesn't have to knock Spidey out by punching....he can just use pressure points like he did to Kid Gladiator.

I don't know if its ten to 1 or closer to 20 to 1... He is 40 times faster than a regular human and wolverine is low level super in speed..

Well from what I know Peter is 15 times faster than a human, not 40 times.....I think you are confusing with him being 40 times more agile than a human. Yes Wolverine is a low level super human speed, I'm not really sure how fast he is. At some point he was compared to being moving faster than a tiger (which is said to be at least 3 times faster than a human) in the K-M-F but hey, it's not really legitimate.....we will never know how fast he is.

Wolverine is just above peak human in that department,

Even though Logan is labelled street level, he is stated to have enhanced abilities like his strength (according to some Marvel database) but I've always thought of him to being a low meta human because of his mutantabilities.

so I really have no idea how much faster he is but it is quite a bit.. Lets say 10 to 1 for the sake of the discussion tho... You still have to add some more speed if the spider sense is written properly and I am not sure about the endurance either..

Trust me I totally agree with you, Peter should be able to dodge the majority of Logan's punches and the only time Logan should tag him is if Peter's starts to slack because he won't be fighting 100% if the fight drags very while Logan will be in the same state as he was when the battle first began.

I mean I know logan has more but Peter can fight for days...

I know but as stated, Wolverine still has the advantage in stamina and endurance, no matter how you look at it.

The pressure point thing isn't something we can use as Spidey as it has never worked before to my knowledge..

Iron-Fist used it once before just to stun Peter while Peter had his back turned on Danny, I'm quite sure Wolverine can do it and has used it on someone more durable than Spidey.....Kid Gladiator. It's not always you see Logan use pressure points but on situations if he has to, he will like here below:

Kid Gladaitor was dominating the Avengers even stating no one was challenging him until he met Logan, Wolverine put himself in a position where he would use a pressure point on K-G who subdued him.

I would have to research who has tried it on spidey to see if logan could win that way...

THIS

As you can see, Spidey was only stunned here....I'm not going to post the rest of the fight cause it's everywhere on the internet. But the maybe this will help, which is the cover of the actual comic:

Ayt, what about Bone-claw Wolverine then against the Lizard?

its the same conclusion,, Bone-claw will be much faster without the adamantium and his HF will be deadpool like... Lizard has to have the distractions to win in my opinion... I think wolvie is to skilled....

Ayt, what about Peter going against Deadpool if the fight is to the death?

@tracy: About the Reflex, Speed and Agility levels of Spider-man, you've got them backwards.

His reaction time, reflexes, and combat speed are 40 times that of a peak human, this also extends to his perception of objects in motion, such as bullets, he basically sees them moving 40 times slower than the really are. This is even before spider-sense is factored in.

I thought Peter was stated to 15 times faster than a human, and his reflexes are 40 times above an average man....as he states himself in the scan below against the Hulk:

His Agility is 18 times better than a peak human level gymnast of acrobat, in other words he's 18 times more agile than guys like Nightwing, or Daredevil etc.

I agree with you, but one thing I've never understood is that when Peter is fighting people he is always performing signs of agility and reflexes but when ever he faces Dare-Devil he doesn't. In-fact D-D is the one who performs them and Peter is always displayed as a brawler liker Wolverine, look here for instance:

Look at Matt saying he can dodge him all day until Peter tires himself out.....here's another one:

And here too:

Lol, guess I can't blame myself for thinking Dare-Devil at one point of his career was more agile than Spider-Man.

@tracy: dude so many of your daredevil vs Spider-Man scans are out of context. 3 out of 4 of them spiderman isn't even in his right mind.i mean your seriously using a scan where spiderman was both blind and could barely stand? Come on man...