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#1 Edited by OreoAssassin (3919 posts) - - Show Bio

Scenario

In A What If? Scenario where instead of Captain America being sent after to take down Agent Venom, Wolverine is sent. Venom convinces Wolverine he's not the person hes claimed to be and Wolverine sides with him. Captain America see's a threat to this duo and sends in a full squad team. (*NOTE* Agent Venom contains all feats, the "What If?" is just to set up a scenario)

Team

The Duo

Rules

  • Scarlet Spider has morals on
  • Deadpool has standard gear (includes satchel)
  • Captain America has morals off
  • Deathstroke is Pre 52 and morals on. Standard Gear
  • Punisher is morals off. M16, LMG, Dual .44 Magnums, 2x frag grenades.
  • Wolverine has healing factor and morals off (can go Bloodlusted easily)
  • Venom morals off (can VULK out BUT not loose control
  • No Prep
  • Win by death/Ko

Location

Online
#2 Posted by OreoAssassin (3919 posts) - - Show Bio

Heres an epic sketch :p

Online
#3 Posted by NICK31898 (2086 posts) - - Show Bio

Team. Combination, of strength, and skill. The rest of the team could take on wolverine. They could figure out a way to knock him out. Scarlet spider can handle venom.

#5 Posted by OreoAssassin (3919 posts) - - Show Bio

Calling out to get this started!

Online
#6 Edited by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19883 posts) - - Show Bio

Scarlet Spider alone could defeat anyone on The Duo team one on one. Adding in Captain America, Deadpool, Deathstroke, and Punisher makes this overkill IMO.

#7 Posted by nickzambuto (12656 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine puts this way too much into the team's favor.

#8 Edited by patrat18 (8441 posts) - - Show Bio

Team wrecks. How is this fare.

#9 Posted by Fallschirmjager (14679 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine puts this way too much into the team's favor.

#10 Posted by jashro44 (19149 posts) - - Show Bio

Yea this is pretty one sided. Kaine could arguable take member individually. Deadpool, deathstroke, and cap combined would beat wolverine regardless of bloodlust. Punisher wont do much admittedly. Maybe he can shoot wolverine in the balls to provide an opening for him to get taken down but thats all I can think of him doing.

#11 Posted by Pokeysteve (7902 posts) - - Show Bio

Scarlet Spider alone could defeat anyone on The Duo team one on one. Adding in Captain America, Deadpool, Deathstroke, and Punisher makes this overkill IMO.

Basically this but I'd say Punisher is close to useless here .

#12 Edited by OreoAssassin (3919 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by dondave (33365 posts) - - Show Bio

Team

#14 Edited by Strider92 (16027 posts) - - Show Bio

Team. Kaine could take either of the other 2 in 1v1 situation and the rest are enough to gang the remaining one

#15 Posted by MonsterStomp (15193 posts) - - Show Bio

Team easy.

#16 Posted by Iragexcudder (4244 posts) - - Show Bio

Absolute overkill

#17 Posted by OreoAssassin (3919 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: Mind showing Kaines strongest damage output? Venoms got A HUGE healing factor and a Durability thats really hard to crack

Online
#18 Posted by OreoAssassin (3919 posts) - - Show Bio

@iragexcudder: This is not overkill. A side might win but its 100% wont be overkill

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#19 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19883 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: Mind showing Kaines strongest damage output? Venoms got A HUGE healing factor and a Durability thats really hard to crack

Kaine already fought Agent Venom and he was doing fine.

This is a Vulked out Thompson without control. In control I'd argue Kaine can defeat Venom. He's also fought Carnage four times IIRC and did pretty well considering he has no symbiote whatsoever.

#20 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6128 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

Yea this is pretty one sided. Kaine could arguable take member individually. Deadpool, deathstroke, and cap combined would beat wolverine regardless of bloodlust. Punisher wont do much admittedly. Maybe he can shoot wolverine in the balls to provide an opening for him to get taken down but thats all I can think of him doing.

Going to start calling you Garth Jashro, or Jashro Ennis ...

#21 Edited by GraniteSoldier (6680 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine could take Wolverine 1v1 in my opinion after a long fight, and the combination of Deathstroke, Cap, and Deadpool (I find Punisher to be a bit of a non factor) would probably hold off Venom until Scarlet Spider is taken down. Kaine is not taking Venom 1 v 1 in my opinion.

He is actively trying to put down Venom in Minimum Carnage here, and fails. Flash proceeds to throttle him pretty well, and that is with him actively fighting against the symbiote's impulses. He's holding back, and Kaine is fighting for his life, as stated by his own narration. The fight ends when Flash finally regains control of the symbiote. I don't know how it happened but the scans are out of order and the scans are out of order, the bottom one happens first. Notice Kaine's inner monologue. Even though I think the Team wins, it's still honestly narrow as I think an argument could be made for Wolverine/Venom.

#22 Posted by jashro44 (19149 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

Yea this is pretty one sided. Kaine could arguable take member individually. Deadpool, deathstroke, and cap combined would beat wolverine regardless of bloodlust. Punisher wont do much admittedly. Maybe he can shoot wolverine in the balls to provide an opening for him to get taken down but thats all I can think of him doing.

Going to start calling you Garth Jashro, or Jashro Ennis ...

LOL well to be fair Bendis also had the hood shoot Wolverine in the balls as well so it does seem to be a weak point...

#23 Edited by GraniteSoldier (6680 posts) - - Show Bio

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek:

I'm going to have to disagree with how you view the fight, interpretation perhaps, but Flash is clearly fighting against the symbiote, similar to his run in with Spider-Man where he swallows pills to subdue it. Flash has sustained far worse beatings from the likes of Toxin than what Kaine can put out.

#24 Posted by Shawnbaby (10387 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

Yea this is pretty one sided. Kaine could arguable take member individually. Deadpool, deathstroke, and cap combined would beat wolverine regardless of bloodlust. Punisher wont do much admittedly. Maybe he can shoot wolverine in the balls to provide an opening for him to get taken down but thats all I can think of him doing.

Going to start calling you Garth Jashro, or Jashro Ennis ...

How about Gashro?

#25 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19883 posts) - - Show Bio

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek:

I'm going to have to disagree with how you view the fight, interpretation perhaps, but Flash is clearly fighting against the symbiote, similar to his run in with Spider-Man where he swallows pills to subdue it. Flash has sustained far worse beatings from the likes of Toxin than what Kaine can put out.

Yes, he was fighting against the symbiote, but he had practically no control over it, as it was rushing at Kaine and was pretty much trying to kill him. If Kaine fought Agent Venom (in control), his stingers would be able to cut right through to Thompson, as it has clearly shown to be able to cut through symbiote. Beatings are one thing, and stingers are another.

#26 Edited by GraniteSoldier (6680 posts) - - Show Bio

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: He kept fighting through Toxin's claws, which I think I somewhat more devastating than Kaine's stingers. With an in-control "Venom out" he tore apart the symbiote slayers, who were manhandling Toxin. I agree the stingers are Kaine's only bet, but Flash's healing has been shown to be insane. Flash has shown more vulnerability to piercing/slashing than Venom has shown in the past, but his healing is much higher as well. He can also slice up Kaine just as easily though, hell, he cut of Carnage's head and Toxin's arm.

#27 Posted by OreoAssassin (3919 posts) - - Show Bio

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: Show me an attack that can do the following:

Even An INjured Venom Can Dodge Kraven's Bullets Point Blank

Punch From Rulk, Heals Immedietly Afterwards

@granitesoldier:

Its good to have someone else back up Agent Venom:)

Online
#28 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19883 posts) - - Show Bio

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: He kept fighting through Toxin's claws, which I think I somewhat more devastating than Kaine's stingers. With an in-control "Venom out" he tore apart the symbiote slayers, who were manhandling Toxin. I agree the stingers are Kaine's only bet, but Flash's healing has been shown to be insane. Flash has shown more vulnerability to piercing/slashing than Venom has shown in the past, but his healing is much higher as well. He can also slice up Kaine just as easily though, hell, he cut of Carnage's head and Toxin's arm.

I think Kaine's stingers are a lot more deadly than the claws. First of all, the stingers are a lot more efficient for stabbing, and with the fact that it can cut through symbiotes easily, one good stab could potentially hit a vital organ. I think if Kaine does the same method with aiming for the heart like he did with Kraven, he could get a clean kill.

#29 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19883 posts) - - Show Bio

@oreoassassin: Those feats are irrelevant. It's like saying Wolverine has tanked a nuke, so a stab to the heart with his stingers wouldn't drop him.

#30 Posted by OreoAssassin (3919 posts) - - Show Bio

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: Lol, Im not trying to play Rock, Paper, Scissors, im showing alot of damage soaking feats. Rulks punch or Toxins tendril are both great examples. Kaines not hitting harder than Rulk and his stingers are not as strong as Toxin. The symbiote will keep him together, as stated in the scan. That tendril went right through him and he healed in a panel!

Online
#31 Edited by GraniteSoldier (6680 posts) - - Show Bio

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek said:

@granitesoldier said:

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: He kept fighting through Toxin's claws, which I think I somewhat more devastating than Kaine's stingers. With an in-control "Venom out" he tore apart the symbiote slayers, who were manhandling Toxin. I agree the stingers are Kaine's only bet, but Flash's healing has been shown to be insane. Flash has shown more vulnerability to piercing/slashing than Venom has shown in the past, but his healing is much higher as well. He can also slice up Kaine just as easily though, hell, he cut of Carnage's head and Toxin's arm.

I think Kaine's stingers are a lot more deadly than the claws. First of all, the stingers are a lot more efficient for stabbing, and with the fact that it can cut through symbiotes easily, one good stab could potentially hit a vital organ. I think if Kaine does the same method with aiming for the heart like he did with Kraven, he could get a clean kill.

Vital organ? By all accounts that impalement is an insta-kill. Flash's stomach, liver, kidneys, spleen, intestines, potentially the lower ends of the lungs, all are being destroyed there. His spine would be gone as well (paralyzing a man with no legs, cold blooded). When we learn knife fighting, the first thing you learn is that you only need three to three and a half inches of penetration into the body (average human body) to start hitting vitals that can kill, either instantly or eventually. Kaine palm striked Kraven in the chest, and when he stabbed Wolverine, Wolverine let him. Kaine hasn't shown that kind of precision against an actively aggressive, attacking target. It would probably look more like this:

That cut should have taken Carnage's jaw off if he had the slicing/penetrating power against symbiotes that you're talking about. He also stabs Carnage in the chest in the small panel, which also doesn't kill him.

I am by no means saying Kaine couldn't pull off a win, or that it'd be easy, against Flash, but I would bank on Flash taking at least 6/10 against Kaine, especially if Flash isn't holding back. In fact, a true fight between them would be epic.

#32 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19883 posts) - - Show Bio

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek said:

@granitesoldier said:

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: He kept fighting through Toxin's claws, which I think I somewhat more devastating than Kaine's stingers. With an in-control "Venom out" he tore apart the symbiote slayers, who were manhandling Toxin. I agree the stingers are Kaine's only bet, but Flash's healing has been shown to be insane. Flash has shown more vulnerability to piercing/slashing than Venom has shown in the past, but his healing is much higher as well. He can also slice up Kaine just as easily though, hell, he cut of Carnage's head and Toxin's arm.

I think Kaine's stingers are a lot more deadly than the claws. First of all, the stingers are a lot more efficient for stabbing, and with the fact that it can cut through symbiotes easily, one good stab could potentially hit a vital organ. I think if Kaine does the same method with aiming for the heart like he did with Kraven, he could get a clean kill.

Vital organ? By all accounts that impalement is an insta-kill. Flash's stomach, liver, kidneys, spleen, intestines, potentially the lower ends of the lungs, all are being destroyed there. When we learn knife fighting, the first thing you learn is that you only need three to three and a half inches of penetration into the body (average human body) to start hitting vitals that can kill, either instantly or eventually. Kaine palm striked Kraven in the chest, and when he stabbed Wolverine, Wolverine let him. Kaine hasn't shown that kind of precision against an actively aggressive, attacking target. It would probably look more like this:

That cut should have taken Carnage's jaw off if he had the slicing/penetrating power against symbiotes that you're talking about. He also stabs Carnage in the chest in the small panel, which also doesn't kill him.

I am by no means saying Kaine couldn't pull off a win, or that it'd be easy, against Flash, but I would bank on Flash taking at least 6/10 against Kaine, especially if Flash isn't holding back. In fact, a true fight between them would be epic.

Can you show the next scan? How fast does Flash recover from impalement? Because I'm pretty confident Kaine's speed is superior to Venom's and he's capable of stabbing with his stingers multiple times, hitting all the organs you have mentioned. Wolverine also did not let Kaine stab his heart. He only vaguely knew what was happening, and when Kaine stabbed him in the heart, he was extremely enraged when he healed because it was uncounted for. 6/10 for Flash is reasonable IMO too, but it's enough for Kaine to hold him off for an extremely long time for the other teammates to help him. Either way you look at it, the team should win.

#33 Edited by laflux (13685 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

Maybe he can shoot wolverine in the balls to provide an opening for him to get taken down but thats all I can think of him doing.

That did make me chuckle tbh.

#34 Posted by jashro44 (19149 posts) - - Show Bio

@oreoassassin: Those feats are irrelevant. It's like saying Wolverine has tanked a nuke, so a stab to the heart with his stingers wouldn't drop him.

i don't think those feats are irrelevant. Red hulks strength>>>>>Kaines. Kaine does have stingers however in the scans he posted with Kraven we see a spear in him and he is also drugged. Its possible Kaine can beat venom but venoms damage soak is going to be a pain to overcome IMHO.

#35 Posted by GraniteSoldier (6680 posts) - - Show Bio

@granitesoldier said:

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek said:

@granitesoldier said:

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: He kept fighting through Toxin's claws, which I think I somewhat more devastating than Kaine's stingers. With an in-control "Venom out" he tore apart the symbiote slayers, who were manhandling Toxin. I agree the stingers are Kaine's only bet, but Flash's healing has been shown to be insane. Flash has shown more vulnerability to piercing/slashing than Venom has shown in the past, but his healing is much higher as well. He can also slice up Kaine just as easily though, hell, he cut of Carnage's head and Toxin's arm.

I think Kaine's stingers are a lot more deadly than the claws. First of all, the stingers are a lot more efficient for stabbing, and with the fact that it can cut through symbiotes easily, one good stab could potentially hit a vital organ. I think if Kaine does the same method with aiming for the heart like he did with Kraven, he could get a clean kill.

Vital organ? By all accounts that impalement is an insta-kill. Flash's stomach, liver, kidneys, spleen, intestines, potentially the lower ends of the lungs, all are being destroyed there. When we learn knife fighting, the first thing you learn is that you only need three to three and a half inches of penetration into the body (average human body) to start hitting vitals that can kill, either instantly or eventually. Kaine palm striked Kraven in the chest, and when he stabbed Wolverine, Wolverine let him. Kaine hasn't shown that kind of precision against an actively aggressive, attacking target. It would probably look more like this:

That cut should have taken Carnage's jaw off if he had the slicing/penetrating power against symbiotes that you're talking about. He also stabs Carnage in the chest in the small panel, which also doesn't kill him.

I am by no means saying Kaine couldn't pull off a win, or that it'd be easy, against Flash, but I would bank on Flash taking at least 6/10 against Kaine, especially if Flash isn't holding back. In fact, a true fight between them would be epic.

Can you show the next scan? How fast does Flash recover from impalement? Because I'm pretty confident Kaine's speed is superior to Venom's and he's capable of stabbing with his stingers multiple times, hitting all the organs you have mentioned. Wolverine also did not let Kaine stab his heart. He only vaguely knew what was happening, and when Kaine stabbed him in the heart, he was extremely enraged when he healed because it was uncounted for. 6/10 for Flash is reasonable IMO too, but it's enough for Kaine to hold him off for an extremely long time for the other teammates to help him. Either way you look at it, the team should win.

It took Flash some panels to heal, but he is clearly hurting from it. Kaine can make him hurt, but it'd take longer than Toxin. Like I said, EPIC fight. And I agree, it is a long fight between them, more than enough time for the other to put down Wolverine. And I agree, the Team wins this.

Honestly, I was just looking to debate with someone over the whole "Kaine takes Flash" thing...

#36 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19883 posts) - - Show Bio

It took Flash some panels to heal, but he is clearly hurting from it. Kaine can make him hurt, but it'd take longer than Toxin. Like I said, EPIC fight. And I agree, it is a long fight between them, more than enough time for the other to put down Wolverine. And I agree, the Team wins this.

Honestly, I was just looking to debate with someone over the whole "Kaine takes Flash" thing...

IMO I think it could go either way. If Kaine didn't have so much CIS he would just cloak and use his stingers to effectively get the drop on Venom and possibly take him out. Unfortunately, he usually bum rushes people with his fists. But yeah my entire point was that Kaine has the potential to take out Venom (and definitely able to take out Logan), and that alone gives the team the win.

#37 Edited by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19883 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek said:

@oreoassassin: Those feats are irrelevant. It's like saying Wolverine has tanked a nuke, so a stab to the heart with his stingers wouldn't drop him.

i don't think those feats are irrelevant. Red hulks strength>>>>>Kaines. Kaine does have stingers however in the scans he posted with Kraven we see a spear in him and he is also drugged. Its possible Kaine can beat venom but venoms damage soak is going to be a pain to overcome IMHO.

Definitely, but I just see how those feats apply to piercing damage from Kaine. They're impressive by all rights, but not really fitting the situation. And it's not like Kaine doesn't have experience with being drugged and fighting off opponents.

And as you probably know, when he stops messing around he one-shotted her. Same with Kraven (disregarding their "special connection" I believe the same result would have happened).

#38 Posted by jashro44 (19149 posts) - - Show Bio

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: Well as I said when he was drugged by Kraven he had a few spears in him on the previous page (you can even see one spear in him). Also he was stabbed through the stomach by toxin and was able to maintain consciousness (albeit barely but toxin is a lot stronger and has a bugger blade) so he does have stabbing resistance.

#39 Edited by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19883 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I agree with that, I just think coupled with Kaine's speed the stingers are a lot more efficient compared to what Venom has regularly faced. Thompson infers it himself that the two could easily kill each other.

But yes, he does have incredible durability against even piercing damage, so by no means is this a walk in the park for any of the two here.

#40 Posted by jashro44 (19149 posts) - - Show Bio

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: Yea I personally lean towards Kaine over venom in character. I think Venom would probably win in this scenario though considering he can turn his arm into a giant blade.

#41 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19883 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Yeah I could definitely see Venom winning it, but overall the Team should definitely win this.

#42 Edited by OreoAssassin (3919 posts) - - Show Bio

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: Regardless of Venom vs Kaine,its a team battle. Venom will be one-shotting everyone else as hes already one shotted Cap holding back. Also Venom can be smart aswell and throw a disguise out

Online
#43 Posted by GraniteSoldier (6680 posts) - - Show Bio

I claim Agent Venom's victory for myself! No one can take this away from me!

Team still wins...

#44 Edited by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19883 posts) - - Show Bio

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: Regardless of Venom vs Kaine,its a team battle. Venom will be one-shotting everyone else as hes already one shotted Cap holding back. Also Venom can be smart aswell and throw a disguise out

I doubt Venom is one-shotting anyone other than Punisher here.

#45 Posted by NICK31898 (2086 posts) - - Show Bio
#46 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19883 posts) - - Show Bio

I disagree, being that scarlet spider is basically an enhanced spider-man, and spider-man beats venom one on one.

Well you have to factor in that Kaine doesn't have any Spider-Sense, and he isn't as smart as Peter.

#47 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6128 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@super_soldierxii said:

@jashro44 said:

Yea this is pretty one sided. Kaine could arguable take member individually. Deadpool, deathstroke, and cap combined would beat wolverine regardless of bloodlust. Punisher wont do much admittedly. Maybe he can shoot wolverine in the balls to provide an opening for him to get taken down but thats all I can think of him doing.

Going to start calling you Garth Jashro, or Jashro Ennis ...

LOL well to be fair Bendis also had the hood shoot Wolverine in the balls as well so it does seem to be a weak point...

Guess there's now more than one reason to call Logan stumpy. And hey, I don't care how much we believe Wolverine likes to tank damage to get the job done quicker ... if he coulda dodged a bullet to the balls, I daresay he would have.

Bendis takes no small amount of vindictive pleasure in seeing Logan thrown in "unmanly" poses and situations;

And now, he had troubles taking out Batroc of all people under Cornell's tender auspices. First Ennis, then Bendis, now Cornell ... sigh.
Heck, even Johnny Hendricks had less trouble taking Batroc out.
#48 Posted by OreoAssassin (3919 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Posted by XLR87T3 (2201 posts) - - Show Bio

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: Show me an attack that can do the following:

Even An INjured Venom Can Dodge Kraven's Bullets Point Blank

Punch From Rulk, Heals Immedietly Afterwards

@granitesoldier:

Its good to have someone else back up Agent Venom:)

Why is X-23 threatening Dr. Mario?

#50 Edited by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19883 posts) - - Show Bio