Witch King vs Litch King......

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bumnut

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#1  Edited By bumnut

Battle of Sword and Sorcery bad boys of the undead and magic.  Which King is the Litch King indeed.  Who is the more powerfull and comes out on top? Wich undead goul can stay UNdead?

 

                                                                                                                                   vs
                                    
 

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#2  Edited By xan84

Arthas.

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#3  Edited By bumnut

Any particular reason? (I personally think so too)

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Disco Inferno

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#4  Edited By Disco Inferno

No man can slay the Witch King

Whether Arthas still counts as a man is a different question entirely.

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xan84

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#5  Edited By xan84

@bumnut said:

"Any particular reason? (I personally think so too) "


 

Arthas is more powerfull in every way. Also WK is vulnerable to fire :P
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#6  Edited By Wisppeons

whos the witch king where is he from?

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#7  Edited By Caligula

Lich King

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#8  Edited By Nemesis
@Wisppeons said:
" whos the witch king where is he from? "
The Witch King of Angmar. From Lord of the Rings.


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bumnut

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#9  Edited By bumnut
@Nemesis said:
"@Wisppeons said:
" whos the witch king where is he from? "
The Witch King of Angmar. From Lord of the Rings."

Yeah, kinda woulda thought the pic would've given that away, but guess not everyone's seen LOTR's :-(
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#10  Edited By xan84
@bumnut said:
"@Nemesis said:
"@Wisppeons said:
" whos the witch king where is he from? "
The Witch King of Angmar. From Lord of the Rings."
Yeah, kinda woulda thought the pic would've given that away, but guess not everyone's seen LOTR's :-( "

DeathKnight>Nazgul, LichKing is the dude that can create DK so his way above a nazgul in this case wich king.
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#11  Edited By Matt707

But Isnt Arthas now the embodiment of Ner'Zhul or something, which suggests that he could kill the Witch King. The only reason people assume he is Human is due to his physical form.

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#12  Edited By Akwa
@Matt707 said:
"

But Isnt Arthas now the embodiment of Ner'Zhul or something, which suggests that he could kill the Witch King. The only reason people assume he is Human is due to his physical form.

"

Exactly. It's pretty safe to assume he isn't human anymore.
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#13  Edited By xan84
@Akwa said:
"@Matt707 said:
"

But Isnt Arthas now the embodiment of Ner'Zhul or something, which suggests that he could kill the Witch King. The only reason people assume he is Human is due to his physical form.

"
Exactly. It's pretty safe to assume he isn't human anymore. "

His a lich, LICHking.
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#14  Edited By Matt707
@Xan said:
"@Akwa said:
"@Matt707 said:
"

But Isnt Arthas now the embodiment of Ner'Zhul or something, which suggests that he could kill the Witch King. The only reason people assume he is Human is due to his physical form.

"
Exactly. It's pretty safe to assume he isn't human anymore. "

His a lich, LICHking. "

Spritually, he is Lich, Physically Human!!!

Either way nothing can beat the might of Frostmourne, nor the will of the Lich King

No Caption Provided
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xan84

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#15  Edited By xan84
@Matt707 said:
"@Xan said:
"@Akwa said:
"@Matt707 said:
"

But Isnt Arthas now the embodiment of Ner'Zhul or something, which suggests that he could kill the Witch King. The only reason people assume he is Human is due to his physical form.

"
Exactly. It's pretty safe to assume he isn't human anymore. "

His a lich, LICHking. "

Spritually, he is Lich, Physically Human!!!

Either way nothing can beat the might of Frostmourne, nor the will of the Lich King

No Caption Provided
"

can an undead be called human? I don't know.
I think Arthas just looks like a human but that is it.
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#16  Edited By Akwa
@Xan said:
"@Matt707 said:
"@Xan said:
"@Akwa said:
"@Matt707 said:
"

But Isnt Arthas now the embodiment of Ner'Zhul or something, which suggests that he could kill the Witch King. The only reason people assume he is Human is due to his physical form.

"
Exactly. It's pretty safe to assume he isn't human anymore. "

His a lich, LICHking. "

Spritually, he is Lich, Physically Human!!!

Either way nothing can beat the might of Frostmourne, nor the will of the Lich King

No Caption Provided
"
can an undead be called human? I don't know.I think Arthas just looks like a human but that is it. "

He doesn't even look particulary human in that pic.
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#17  Edited By Matt707
@Akwa said:
"@Xan said:
"@Matt707 said:
"@Xan said:
"@Akwa said:
"@Matt707 said:
"

But Isnt Arthas now the embodiment of Ner'Zhul or something, which suggests that he could kill the Witch King. The only reason people assume he is Human is due to his physical form.

"
Exactly. It's pretty safe to assume he isn't human anymore. "

His a lich, LICHking. "

Spritually, he is Lich, Physically Human!!!

Either way nothing can beat the might of Frostmourne, nor the will of the Lich King

No Caption Provided
"
can an undead be called human? I don't know.I think Arthas just looks like a human but that is it. "
He doesn't even look particulary human in that pic. "

Its the armour, and the eyes are the result of the fusion between Human and Lich, but like I said, physicaly he is very human, the spirit of Nerzhul, or the lich, is what gives him superhuman strength.
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fantasywind

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#18  Edited By fantasywind

Witch-king level of power depends on the strength of his master. Sauron's power is growing, so does the Witch-king. But even alone he is dangerous. The prophecy of Glorfindel: "Do not pursue him! He will not return to these lands. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man shall he fall." is referring to one specific event that will happen, when the right circumstances appear. He prophecied that one point of history when he will be defeated, but we don't know if it meaned his total ,,erasing from existance" because of the nature of Rings of Power which held the Nazgul in their state of unlife: ,,The Witch-king had been reduced to impotence." Tolkien footnote below Letter 246. That mean he didn't ,,die" in true sense of the word, he existed in the shadow world, that second layer of reality, so normal laws applying to spirits of men in Tolkien universe are not used in this case.

Frodo and Sam became aware that something happen, and they felt spirit of the Witch-king:

,,It was the morning of the fifteenth of March, and over the Vale of Anduin the Sun was rising above the eastern shadow, and the south-west wind was blowing. Théoden lay dying on the Pelennor Fields.

As Frodo and Sam stood and gazed, the rim of light spread all along the line of the Ephel Dúath, and then they saw a shape, moving at a great speed out of the West, at first only a black speck against the glimmering strip above the mountain-tops, but growing, until it plunged like a bolt into the dark canopy and passed high above them. As it went it sent out a long shrill cry, the voice of a Nazgul; but this cry no longer held any terror for them: it was a cry of woe and dismay, ill tidings for the Dark Tower. The Lord of the Ring-wraiths had met his doom.

'What did I tell you? Something's happening!' cried Sam.' The war's going well, said Shagrat; but Gorbag he wasn't so sure. And he was right there too. Things are looking up, Mr. Frodo. Haven't you got some hope now?'" Defeat of the Witch-king was only possible when both Eowyn and Merry with special dagger of Numenoreans (with spells against wraiths, which allowed to remove Witch-king's magical protection from normal weapons: "No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will." - The Battle of Pelennor Fields, Return of the King, p.120) were present at the field of battle. Eowyn wouldn't survive without Merry, and he wouldn't survive without her. Witch-king trait of invulnerability to all weapons: "Look!" he cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a black cloak that had lain there hidden by the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a slash. "This was the stroke of Frodo's sword," he said. "The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King. More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth." - Aragorn, "Flight to the Ford," Fellowship of the Ring, p.201

Witch-king powers and abilities:

1. unnatural aura of fear they spread so almost every being is affected:

FRODO: I know. They were terrible to behold! But why could we all see their horses?

GANDALF: Because they are real horses; just as the black robes were real robes that they wear to give shape to their nothingness when they have dealings with the living.

FRODO: Then why do these black horses endure such riders? All other animals are terrified when they draw near, even the elf-horse of Glorfindel. ...

GANDALF: Because these horses are born and bred to the service of the Dark Lord in Mordor. Not all his servants and chattel are wraiths! There are orcs and trolls, there are wargs and werewolves, and there have been and still are many Men, warriors and kings, that walk alive under the Sun, and yet are under his sway. And their number is growing daily. - Many Meetings, Fellowship of the Ring

'Over the hills of slain a hideous shape appeared: a horseman, tall, hooded, cloaked in black. Slowly, trampling the fallen, he rode forth, heeding no longer any dart. he halted and held up a long pale sword. And as he did so a great fear fell upon all, defender and foe alike; and the hands of men dropped to their sides, and no bows sang. For a moment all was still.

2. spells pralyzing a person and telekinetically destroying swords (probably other objects as well):

"Then the leader, who was now half across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand. The elf-horse reared and snorted. The foremost of the black horses had almost set foot upon the shore." - Flight to the Ford, Fellowship of the Ring, p.227

3. wielding fire, making flaming swords:

"The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.

"'Old fool!' he said. 'Old fool! This my hour. Do you not know death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!' And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade." - The Siege of Gondor, Return of the King, p.103

4. controlling weather, power over ice and snow:

"Lossoth, the Snow Men of Forchel ... they were afraid of the Witch-king, who (they said) could make frost or thaw at his will." - Appendix A, The North Kingdom and the Dúnedain, Return of the King, p.322

"But the snow men were uneasy; for they said they smelled danger in the wind. And the chief of the Lossoth said to Arvedui: 'Do not mount on this sea-monster! If they have them, let the seamen bring us food and other things that we need, and you may stay here till the Witch-king goes home. For in summer his power wanes; but now his breath is deadly, and his cold arm is long.'" - Appendix A, The North Kingdom and the Dúnedain, Return of the King, p.322 and it was him who ultimately caused death of Arvedui (last king of Arnor) by making storm on the Ice Bay of Forochel, and trapping ship in ice (which broke hull of the ship and cause it's sinking)

5. blasting spells (examples of sorcery, Witch-king was the most powerful Nazgul):

"The drums rolled and rattled. With a vast rush Grond was hurled forward by huge hands. It reached the Gate. It swung. A deep boom rumbled through the city like thunder running in the clouds. But the doors of iron and posts of steel withstood the stroke.

"Then the Black Captain rose in his stirrups and cried aloud in a dreadful voice, speaking in some forgotten tongue words of power and terror to rend both heart and stone.

"Thrice he cried. Thrice the great ram boomed. And suddenly upon the last stroke the Gate of Gondor broke. As if stricken by some blasting spell, it burst asunder: there was a flash of searing lightning, and the doors tumbled in riven fragments to the ground." - Siege of Gondor, Return of the King, p.102 he can be also imbued with the power of Sauron himself:

,,The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force. But even in the Battle of the Pelennor, the darkness had only just broken. See III 114." - Letter 210, Tolkien Letters, p.272

'The Nazgûl came again, and as their Dark Lord now grew and put forth his strength, so their voices, which utter only his will and his malice, were filled with evil and horrow. Ever they circled above the City, like vultures that expect their fill of doomed men's flesh. Out of sight and shot they flew, and yet were ever present, and their deadly voices filled the air. More unbearable they became, not less, at each new cry. At length even the stout-hearted would fling themselves to the ground as the hidden menace passed over them, or they would stand, letting their weapons fall from nerveless hands while into their minds a blackness came, and they thought no more of war, but only of hiding and of crawling, and of death.'

6. effects of Black Breath which will ultimately kill the oponents of Nazgul:

"But now their art and knowledge were baffled; for there were many sick of a malady that would not be healed; and they called it the Black Shadow, for it came from the Nazgûl. And those who were stricken with it fell slowly into an ever deeper dream, and then passed to silence and a deadly cold, and so died." - Houses of Healing, Return of the King, p.136 it only required a presence of Nazgul even at distance (short exposure may have temporary incapacitating effect): "'I found him, sir,' put in Nob. '...I went down to West-gate, and then back up towards South-gate. Just nigh Bill Ferny's house I thought I could see something in the Road. I couldn't swear to it, but it looked to me as if two men was stopping over something, lifting it. I gave a shout, but when I got to the spot there was no signs of them, and only Mr. Brandybuck lying by the roadside. He seemed to be asleep. 'I thought I had fallen into deep water,' he says to me, when I shook him. Very queer he was, and as soon as I had roused him, he got up and ran back here like a hare.'

"'I am afraid that's true,' said Merry, 'though I don't know what I said. I had an ugly dream, which I can't remember. I went to pieces. I don't know what came over me.'

"'I do,' said Strider. 'The Black Breath. The Riders must have left their horses outside, and asked back through the South-gate in secret. They will all know the news now, for they have visited Bill Ferny; and probably that Southerner was a spy as well." - Strider, Fellowship of the Ring, p.186

“…but the chief evil comes through the sword-arm. In that there now seems no life, although it is unbroken.

Alas! For she was pitted against a foe beyond the strength of her mind or body. And those who will take a weapon to such an enemy must be sterner than steel, if the very shock shall not destroy them.”

7. great durability (survived fall from big height, swept by flood, cannot be killed by arrows):

,,LEGOLAS: The Winged Messenger! I shot at them with the bow of Galadriel above Sarn Gebir, and I felled him from the sky. He filled us all with fear. What new terror is this?

GANDALF: One that you cannot slay with arrows. You only slew his steed. It was a good deed; but the Rider was soon horsed again. For he was a Nazgûl, one of the Nine, who ride now upon winged steeds. Soon their terror will overshadow the last armies of our friends, cutting off the sun."

8. necromancy (he made Barrow Wights which had powers of their own, causing trance-like state resembling death):

"They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for trying to keep his Ring, if any greater torment were possible than being robbed of it and seeing it on his hand." - Gandalf, Many Meetings, Fellowship of the Ring

GANDALF: ...You were in the gravest peril while you wore the Ring, for then you were half in the wraith-world yourself, and they might have seized you. You could see them and they could see you. - Many Meetings, Fellowship of the Ring

‘It was at this time that an end came of the Dúedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there.’

9. skilled commander and tactician (ruled the realm of Angmar, containing tribes of men, which he thought sorcery, trolls, wargs, orcs, other evil creatures):

"But it was no orc-chieftain or brigand that led the assault upon Gondor. The darkness was breaking too soon, before the date that his Master had set for it: fortune had betrayed him for the moment, and the world had turned against him; victory was slipping from his grasp even as he stretched out his hand to seize it. But his arm was long. He was still in command, wielding great powers. King, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgûl, he had many weapons. He left the gate and vanished." - Battle of the Pelennor Fields, Return of the King, p.114

10. mental influence over his armies (and enemies by inducing fear at much greater scale):

‘“Some said that it could not be seen, like a great black horseman, a dark shadow under the moon. Wherever he came a madness filled our foes, but fear fell on our boldest, so that horse and man gave way and fled. Only a remnant of our eastern force came back, destroying the last bridge that still stood amid the ruins of Osgiliath.”’

'"They have paid dear for the crossing, but less dearly then we hoped...They swarmed across like beetles. But it is the Black Captain that defeats us. Few will stand and abide even the rumor of his coming. His own folk quail at him, and they would slay themselves at his bidding.'"

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#19  Edited By Nessy

fury of frostmourne does like 10 million damage to everything and onyl takes like 2 seconds to channel. Should be an easy win.

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#20  Edited By fantasywind

@Nessy: Ehh, game stats shouldn't be used, only actual abilities that are attributed to both characters. And on the other way we don't know if Frostmourne would even cause any damage because ,,but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King"

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#21  Edited By fantasywind

@Matt707: If Arthas don't have special blade of the Numenoreans with the ,,spells for the bane of Mordor" even not being human won't help him, it just happened that the person who finally fought and won was a woman, hobbit also qualifies as ,,no man" but if he didn't use Barrow Down dagger he would do nothing, both Merry and Eowyn almost paid for it with death.

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#22  Edited By ShootingNova

Witch King is stated to be incapable of being slain by man, which is what the Lich King is......

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#23  Edited By KMART4455

@xan84 said:

@bumnut said:

"Any particular reason? (I personally think so too) "
Arthas is more powerfull in every way. Also WK is vulnerable to fire :P

? do what

Anyway Arthas wont be able to kill WK no man can do it.

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#24  Edited By dwade

LICH KING OWNS WITCH KING

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#25  Edited By Matt707

@fantasywind: With all due respect, I didn't understand a word of what you just wrote..

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#26  Edited By TERMINATORXX

@xan84 said:

@bumnut said:


"Any particular reason? (I personally think so too) "

Arthas is more powerfull in every way. Also WK is vulnerable to fire :P
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#27  Edited By fantasywind

@Matt707: I didn't participate in any activities on this site for a long time, so I don't know to which of my comments you refer. But I'll gladly explain my point if you are interested.

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#28  Edited By fantasywind

@TERMINATORXX: Well, there is actually written that Nazgul ,,fear fire and those who wield it" but not vulnerable. And surprisingly enough they can overcome this fear and as Witch-king did wield it themselves: ,,...And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.", ,,The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark." So we cannot judge by the statement of vulnerability to fire. Of course Nazgul vary in power, their master can even strengthen them at will, and: ,,The Ringwraiths are deadly enemies, but they are only shadows yet of the power and terror they would possess if the Ruling Ring was on their master's hand again.

— (but that's rather unimportant to this match).

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#29  Edited By sambuscus

@fantasywind: Probably a bit late to add to this conversation, but i'd like to clear some aspects regarding to the lich king, first of all to the three people who said he is human,....he is not, he was previously Nerzhul, a powerful orc shaman who was tricked by Kil'jaeden The Deciever, an extremely powerful demon who uses his near infinite power to present 'gifts' to seemingly capable personnel that can serve him, so he forges the Helm of Domination and traps Nerzhul's powers, energies, and potential in it, and adds an incredible amount of power to it, so much that it exhausts him (note: this guy is the second-in-command after Sargeras, who's practically a god of gods, so thats a decent amount of power in there) he makes his demons forge FROSTMOURNE and the PLATE OF THE DAMNED, he then was sent to earth to practically raise an army of the dead and weaken Azeroth (Earth). The Lich King obeys him...for a while, The Lich King builds an army and claims Northrend (an entire continent) to himself. he would fight wars were when the enemy soldiers die he would reanimate them with a single thought, adding them to his army, soon The Scourge (his vast undead army) was so powerful that it not only conquered Northrend but spread to the other two continents and plagued alot of it (almost quarter of each id say) The Lich King discovers his true potential and works on his powers telepathically, gradually his powers become so great and magnificent that it reached (and probably exceeded) his master's thus Kil'jaedan and the demons he sent to safeguard him lost control of his ever-growing powers. Things happen and its too much to put here (claims alot of lands, anyone who dies he reanimates so his army is freakin' gigantic, he has more than 50 TRUE champions that can destroy entire countries by themselves so imagine what they can do with part of the scourge under their hand. Arthas the human prince and champion gets corrupted and ends up serving him , Arthas is a skilled warrior and single-handedly slays abominations and claims cities.) at the end The Lich King decides to merge with Arthas, so that he obtains a truly powerful and skillful body and that his god-like powers dont escape somehow. so here are his traits and abilities.

-Is considered the god of death and undeath, and actually worshipped by some of the natives. He controls Frost and Cold Aspects of...everything, Blood, he drains his enemies powers, and death and plague which is the whole spreading disease and bringing undead deal :]

-Wields Frostmourne WHICH IS MOST DEFINITELY NOT a normal blade, it is of EXTREME power, it slices through all weapon and armor with extreme ease, the runeblade acts like the ring of power in LoTR in some ways, anybody who wields it gets his mind completely invaded by the LK (vision, hearing, thoughts..) , and the LK corrupts him slowly turning him from good to neutral to evil to undead, and finally absorbing all his knowledge and skill. It absorbs the targets soul once it makes contact with it, if targets soul resists, the the very soul is shattered, if soul doesnt resist then it is trapped in Frostmourne, The Lich King cannot be disarmed from his runeblade and it is destroyed by the only sword in azeroth that equals it 'The Ashbringer' BUT the ashbringer is made from the core of a naaru (an angel) and forged by the king of dwarves, pouring all his desire of vengeance into the blade, and the last time i checked Middle-Earth didnt have a King-Forged-Angelic-Holy-Epic-Sword, so dispelling the sword from the fight is invalid.

- The Lich King has an army that is bigger than the combination of all the rest of the armies in Azeroth, and it is ever-growing.

-The very ground that the Lich-King stands on is corrupt the ground below him is usually plated with frost and wherever he steps there will never be life (plants). He can also bring up an entire battalion of undead (around 60) with a single thought in any location in the world, if he wants to bring more, then a second thought is required :D.

- The Helm of Domination is the source of all his power, and while some might argue that anyone can steal i would have to disagree, like Frostmourne the Lich King has a connection to the helm, he can never misplace it (he always senses where it is) and if a thief would try to wear it with the current lich king is alive, they would be instantly killed by the massive flow of energy from the helm.

-The Lich King has his own form of angels called 'Valkyrie' these creatures look like angels in an epic viking way, they have the ability to heal and restore a person to life.

- Death Knights can be compared to Nazgul in a sense, the death knights are servants of the Lich King that were once great champions in life, these heroes where gifted with portion of the Lich King's near-infinite powers, in-game a death knight has the (Lich-kingish) ability to drain his enemies of their life-forces and can summon leeches to help them (Blood Talent Tree) Manipulating ice magic, mostly in forms of slowing down an enemy and the speed of his attacks, but can also deep freeze an enemy and blast them with strong northern winds (Frost Talent Tree) and finally spreading Plague and diseases to overload your enemy with ailments and slay him effortlessly. Towards the end of the limitations of their power a death Knight can summon around 10 ghouls at a time to aid him in battle as well as his own personal undead.

-Two leaders almost died against him, but you wouldnt get it, Faction Leaders are usually the most powerful of their class,(an example would be Varian Wrynn, King of the Humans, Favored by the God Lo'gosh, Many believe him to be the most skilled and powerful warrior, and Thrall/Go'el is believed to be the world's most powerful shaman) so during a quest a in both factions a leader tries to infilitrate and destroy the Lich King, if your are on alliance then you are accompanied by Jaina Proudmoore, The Human Mage, Ruler of Theramore, considered the world's most powerful mage, when she tries to defeat him she barely grazes his health while her own health (which is no small amount) is almsot depleted, she quickly tries to freeze him with ice and escape but he is the amster of ice and removes them, then start to follow her. Same thing with Horde except with Horde you get Sylvannas Windrunner, Banshee Queen of the Forsaken, Considered the Best Dark ranger (practically archer with alot of cool shadow magic stuff), same deal; she barely grazes him, almost dies, throws shadow bonds, he controls shadow magic too, and follows her.

-During the endfight to the lich-king, he effortlessly locks the world's most powerful paladin (Tirion Fordring) in a block of frost (which is humiliating) until the end of the fight during which the lich-king faces down 10 of the worlds most powerful champions, he practices different attacks in different phases of his health. He summons undead into the fight, inflicts plagues and diseases to all party members knocks back tank with powerful frost attacks, summons winds to his aid, summon valkyrie , who if not killed in time will choke-grab a player and throw him off the tower, lays shadow traps that when touched will explode with shadow energies, absorbs your soul forcing you to fight your way out, rips part of your soul and makes it fight against you, sends shockwaves at players and below the floor causing earthquakes, his very scream makes you unable to use magic, he sends out giant ice spheres that kill when it reaches it target, and after all of that when you think you finally got him, he take one swipe of frostmourne and slays 10 of the most powerful champions with one hit (called fury of frostmourne) , later on admitting that he only fought them to witness if they really are as powerful as people said and that he could have slain them at any time and that he wants to resurrect them under his command.

-Finally as i have said, the Lich King is nowhere near human, only the holiness of The Ashbringer could break Frostmourne and release the souls, otherwise he remains powerful, but now my favorite quote/trait. "There must always be a Lich King"...if the Lich King dies by The Ashbringer ,he must always be replaced, because if he doesnt the true power of the scourge army will be unleashed and all will be chaos (apparentally the power of the army used to conquer a continent and a half,two quarters of the others, wasnt anywhere near as its 'true' power')

I personally believe that the witch-king is awesome, but i think he would be more comparable to Darion Morgraine (Most powerful Death knight) or maybe Kel'thuzad (The Lich King's second-in-command).

and i think The Lich King would be more comparable in power to Sauron. :D

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EssentiallyHeroes

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Finn beats both

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OneOfAkind

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Okay let's look at the facts, Arthas is most definitely more powerful than the Witch King. But the Witch King cannot quite take harm from a blade, hell probably not even the Frostmourne could honestly hurt him. Though the Witch king has a slight weakness to fire, that could be an advantage for the Litch King. Now as far as undead to undead, the Witch King is not as dead or *Undead* as the Arthas. But he still dead:P. Now to the final point, who would win. I honestly think it depends on the area,lets say maybe a more torched area Arthas takes it. A flat pillared area Witch King takes it. 1 more thing i need to get off my chest, a bit off topic. But if you wanted to say this by who was made first, Witch King:P

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leonkarlen123

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Okay let's look at the facts, Arthas is most definitely more powerful than the Witch King. But the Witch King cannot quite take harm from a blade, hell probably not even the Frostmourne could honestly hurt him. Though the Witch king has a slight weakness to fire, that could be an advantage for the Litch King. Now as far as undead to undead, the Witch King is not as dead or *Undead* as the Arthas. But he still dead:P. Now to the final point, who would win. I honestly think it depends on the area,lets say maybe a more torched area Arthas takes it. A flat pillared area Witch King takes it. 1 more thing i need to get off my chest, a bit off topic. But if you wanted to say this by who was made first, Witch King:P

Lich King could freeze him then shatter him to pieces.

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Egemensson

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witch king is simply a very powerful death knight; on the other hand, lich king created the "concept" lol. lich king wins, witch king could be his right hand though.

lich king vs sauron would be a better one.

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deactivated-5b15216a2a1e3

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Mhm.... hard one. We haven't seen all the magical abilities of the Witch-King, he probably didn't show them cause he thought there would be no need to use it on mortals, but Lich-King is a entirely different story. He could somehow ban his sword weapon, like he did to Gandalf with ease. Lich-King could use his ice powers to trap and freeze Witch-King while he could burn it off with a sword. I'm going to count Witch-King without Naz'gul so he couldn't fly away and by saying that I ultimately think Lich-King still has advantage on the ground battle. His little stomp already causes ground to freeze and he seems to have much greater physical strength and durability, normal weapon wouldn't kill him, but ofcourse same on Witch-King cause I count the book version not the movie. It's a great battle between the two, but Lich-King's physical prowess would be too much for Witch-King in the end..... And also for Lich-King's favor is his necromancy abilities, not sure if Witch-King had it though..

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Felking1

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All Arthas would have to do is just get close enough the slice and dice witch king... and then frostmourne sucks in witch kings soul. Then... game over he aint ever getting out of there!

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Outside_85

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Going with the Witch King, mostly because Arthas can't kill him (both he, his predecessor and his successors are male, and he is king, so definitely male). And partially because the Witch King is held together with the iron will of Sauron which appears to maintain his magical power somewhere above Gandalf the White's.

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kszypty

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@outside_85: where did people get the whole "Witch King is immune to everything done to him by men" thing? The prophecy clearly states, that (citing from memory) "he won't fall by a hand of man", meaning that Glorfindel foresaw his death at Eowyn's hand, and warned men who wanted to pursue him against it (he saw him get killed by someone other than them, meaning that their quest wouldn't succeed). But then again, one could argue that those men didn't kill him, because they didn't pursue him, because Glorfindel told them not to. Isn't it common sense to ignore various prophecies in VS debates? Otherwise Voldemort would win against Dr. Strange, and that's just bollocks.

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Outside_85

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@kszypty said:

@outside_85: where did people get the whole "Witch King is immune to everything done to him by men" thing? The prophecy clearly states, that (citing from memory) "he won't fall by a hand of man", meaning that Glorfindel foresaw his death at Eowyn's hand, and warned men who wanted to pursue him against it (he saw him get killed by someone other than them, meaning that their quest wouldn't succeed). But then again, one could argue that those men didn't kill him, because they didn't pursue him, because Glorfindel told them not to. Isn't it common sense to ignore various prophecies in VS debates? Otherwise Voldemort would win against Dr. Strange, and that's just bollocks.

No, because both in the books and in the movies, the best anyone has ever managed against the Witch King is drive him and his fellow wraiths off. And it's stated by the Witch King himself that 'no living man can kill/hinder me.' and none has ever managed it, thus for all we know, it's true. The point about Voldemort is fair enough, but however Voldemort has inbuilt methods someone like Strange could strike at, thus making it possible for him to defeat him.

That said, whenever Arthas is truly alive any more is a question left unanswered. But considering that he was alive when he became the Lich King, and that he was eventually slain, chance is that he was technically still alive.

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DragonBornTookAnArrowToTheKnee789

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@egemensson: Lich King created the "concept"? sorry pal but the Witch King has been around since the 50's when the LOTR books came out

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SheogorathUnearth

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGdp5_12zW0

He's pretty powerful if you ask me, doing something like that.

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Eisenfauste

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Arthas has better feats, at the very least he could incap him with fire.

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tparks

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Arthas in a complete stomp

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deactivated-59c716930b8a6

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Arthas has better feats, at the very least he could incap him with fire.

With fire?

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This thread interests me so I'll reply :-)

Magic is very different in the two universes to begin with, with tolkiens magic being less defined and more mystic.

In single combat it would be hard to declare a winner, both are potent, for the sake of the debate I'd say frostmourne would be able to wound him, and arthas does have an advantage being unliving, meaning he is more than likely immune to the black breath and his morgul blade not to mention fear. Big advantage to the fallen prince, however, the witch king have shown to be a powerful sorcerer, being able to weaken the gate of gondor enough that the grond could destroy it, and also breaking frodos sword by waving his hand, in the movie he also destroyed Gandalfs staff, so it is fair to say he got some form of telekinesis. He as also been showed to manipulate ice, in a bigger extent than Arthas imo. Arthas got more impressive feats, raising sindragosa and sapphiron, seemingly without effort, the latter while his power was waning, this doesnt necessarily translate into combat prowess. His feats are a bit hard to define, because a lot of them are gameplay mechanics.

There are a lot of ifs when determining the winner, can frostmourne hurt the witch king? If so, can't the witch king destroy it with telekinesis like he did gandalfs staff(in the movies) and frodos sword(in the books)? But if they were to duke it out, the witch king couldnt destroy Arthas' sword, but Arthas can harm him with frostmourne, I think it would be a tossup, afaik Arthas haven't shown many abilities that would help him in a 1v1, other than gameplay abilities, and both the witch king and arthas have been shown to have pretty good physical strength.

If they were leading armies, but weren't allowed to directly intervene, I think the witch king would take it 9/10 times, he was a capable commander. Arthas only followed orders and when he assumed his own iron crown, he lost pretty much every battle until his demise.

If both commanders were allowed to intervene Arthas should win 10/10 times, seeing as his necromancy is OP af

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CourtoftheOwls

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Would Sauron be fully powered or about as powerful as he was in the Return of the King? If he is fully powered (thus the Witch King gets even more powerful than he was prior to his death), than the Lord of the Nazgûl should take this easily.

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RenTheMage

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With new feats from weaker characters, and the power that a weaker Lich King possesses right before Shadowlands.

Arthas takes this handily. And no, the Witch King cannot shatter Frostmourne. It's a sword of immense power.

Also The Witch King being held together by the iron will of Sauron won't help him against the Iron Will of the Lich King.

The Lich King's mental powers far exceeds that of Sauron in the 3rd age. Commanding millions of undead from across the world.

The Lich King's mastery of ice also likely far exceeds that of the Witch King, considering he can summon literal storms of ice effortlessly.

A weaker lich king also showed us that the LK has some rather significant TK abilities that were't there before.

And most of all one thing people completely forgot to mention is that the Plate of the Damned, Arthas's armor makes him damn near impervious to both physical and magical damage. Even against weapons that rivaled his he still won effortlessly as his power was far beyond any of his opponents at the time. Furthermore Arthas has the ability to dominate the will of undead just as all death knights do. If he didn't just outright kill the Witch King, Arthas's mental powers likely exceed that of Sauron's.

The Lich King's weapon would more than likely shatter the Witch King's in all reality. Not the other way around.

Frostmourne is a legendary artifact created and forged by a godlike being called the Rune-Carver likely for the Jailer. The power of the Maw, and subsequently the Jailer himself flows through Frostmourne (Based off of what we know the Jailer should be as strong if not stronger than Morgoth after he was weakened, since he is supposedly on the level of the titans). The same power that allowed Sylvanas to absolutely stomp a weaker Lich King (Bolvar) who would still likely defeat the Witch King like it was nothing.

This is honestly a mismatch. Arthas vs Sauron (3rd Age - With body) is a much more appropriate fight.

Lich King new feats

- Scaling to Jailer powered Sylvanas
- Wielding the power of the Maw/The Jailer
- Frostmourne and the Helm of Damnation were created by a god not Nathrezim like we initially thought.
- The Helm of Damnation belongs to the Jailer (Implied when Bolvar, the Lich King after Arthas, says that he can feel the influence of the Helm's true master more than ever while being in the Maw. "Not Arthas, Not Ner'zhul, but something else")
- Telekinesis feats that we didn't know the LK could pull off.
- The Helm of Damnation when it shattered, ripped a hole in reality between the realm of the living and the dead.
- Arthas had a much greater command over these powers than Bolvar did.
- The Death Lord (The Lich King's right hand) using a fraction of the Lich King's power is able to resurrect the unressurectable i.e. "His body is scarred by the light, we cannot do anything for him now.". To which the Lich King tells the Death Lord "Death is for the living, it holds no power over the damned. Command him to rise." and the Death Lord using Frostmourne was able to resurrect a death knight whose body was deemed impossible to raise by the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
- Arthas should scale quite a bit above the Death Lord of Acherus who achieved power far beyond what the Witch King can handle with Legion scaling and how powerful the player characters get in lore during that expansion.


Old Feats
- Arthas can see the dead whether they are visible to the naked eye or not.
- Arthas can see through illusions
- Arthas can conjure storms of ice
- Arthas can kill 10 - 25 of the most powerful heroes on Azeroth with a single strike of his sword into the ground.
- Arthas can resurrect the dead, and even the dead that resist undeath like Worgen which are considered immune to the plague of undeath normally.
- Arthas can raise extremely powerful entities and make them even stronger than they were in life.
- Arthas can mentally dominate his entire army of millions of undead from across the world.
- His sword steals souls, and shatters blades effortlessly and causes permanent wounds that persist in death and in life.
i.e. Uther's soul was wounded by frostmourne and it prevented him from ascension, Illidan could feel "The cold bite of Frostmourne" even 10 years later as if it was a fresh wound.
- Completely no diffing characters like Jaina Proudmoore and Sylvanas Windrunner who are both extremely powerful (Jaina's frost powers should also exceed the Witch King's yet Arthas's completely trumped hers)
- Can raise countless undead with but a thought
- Can wrestle control of your mind (assuming you are undead, which the Witch King is)
- Can summon angels of death called Val'Kyr, Frost giants, Undead dragons, Death Knights (People with weaker versions of his own power), Liches which can summon undead en masse the same as the Val'Kyr and the Lich King himself, can raise every single one of the orcs that die under the Witch King's command as his own as well as resurrect his own soldiers again.
- Can teleport via death gate.
- Can teleport on his own without a death gate
- Can spread disease and infestation effortlessly.
- Blood manipulation
- Is considered a master swordsman, as good if not better than the likes of Varian Wrynn or Garrosh Hellscream.
- Has strength far beyond human levels, easily flinging death knights who also have super human strength many many meters away.
- His armor and helm make him nearly invulnerable to physical and magical damage.
- He further has anti magic spells that further reduce the damage of magic.


The list goes on but this should be enough to drive the point home. Arthas effortlessly wins here.
In the end, every one of his losses but his final one was planned by Arthas to make his opponents stronger just so he could raise them as his own minions.

(sorry for the bump if it's not appropriate considering new feats. I am still a little unclear on bumping rules.)