Posted by onilordasmodeus (2545 posts) - - Show Bio

Setting: Plains around Gondor

Witch King of Angmar

vs

Dragon Priest Nahkriin

Rules:

  • Full power
  • No mounts or outside help
  • Start distance - 100ft
  • Win condition - oblivion

#2 Posted by Penderor (1891 posts) - - Show Bio

Wtich-King stomps probably. He is completely different magic class and superior duelist.

#3 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

Witch King, no man can kill him...

#4 Posted by RogueShadow (10680 posts) - - Show Bio

Witch King, no man can kill him...

That was a prophecy, not some kind of enchantment, he could be killed by a man, but it was prophecised he would be killed by a woman. Common misconception.

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#5 Posted by Beezlebub (1864 posts) - - Show Bio

No the prophecy ensured that a man couldn't kill him allowing only non male humans able to kill him which given the spectrum of races in lotr isn't that much protection. We do not use the prophecy/curse in battles as that is OP. Along with that what is a dragon priest skill set? I am a lotr expert and that's about it.

#6 Posted by JasonHawke (1356 posts) - - Show Bio

Witch King

#7 Posted by MetalJimmor (1063 posts) - - Show Bio

@beezlebub:

The person who made the prophecy was an enemy of the Witch King. Why would he place a magical enchantment on the Witch King that would make the Witch King harder to kill? I can't imagine Glorfindel wanted to protect the Witch King. He also didn't phrase it like any kind of spell.

"Do not pursue him! He will not return to these lands. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man shall he fall."

A prophecy tells what will happen. It isn't a protective charm that repels attacks from designated people.

As for what this dragon priest can do. He's pretty much an undead mage, which means he won't be attacking with weapons that would break on the Witch King. He's undead and so probably won't be effected by the Black Breath either. The Dragon Priests tend to spam spells, and this one wields a staff of Storm Wall. He's holding a lightning spell in his hand there, and the Witch King didn't do so well against Gandalf's lightning.

It's hard to really compare, since we don't see a whole lot of the Witch King's magic, and Nahkriin has no feats outside of gameplay.

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#8 Edited by Beezlebub (1864 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor: It wasn't Glorfindel that enchanted him Glorfindel just predicted his fate while fate or in this case Mandos ensured his fate. I honestly can't judge this fight because of lack of knowledge on his opponent. Call me out if you need WK feats.

#9 Posted by Little_Horus (6 posts) - - Show Bio

Isn't the dragonborn on a continent+ level? If nahkriin is anywhere near that, he stomps. Not sure if he is lorewise however.

#10 Posted by MetalJimmor (1063 posts) - - Show Bio

@little_horus:

He is not. Dovahkiin has no feats that put him at mountain busting, let alone continent. When people make that claim they are just powerscaling from the Tongues being able to shake the world to call the Dragonborn, which is far from a combat feat.

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#11 Posted by reikai (4233 posts) - - Show Bio

Graybeards voice can shake the continent.

Ancient Tongues >> Graybeards

Miraak > Ancient Tongues

Alduin >>> Miraak

Dovahkiin > Alduin

#12 Posted by DarthAznable (6951 posts) - - Show Bio

Skyrim sucked.

#13 Posted by i_like_swords (14326 posts) - - Show Bio

And here we go again

#14 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (17328 posts) - - Show Bio

little Houses > Alduin.

lol continent level.

#15 Posted by ProfZ (274 posts) - - Show Bio

ABC >>> XYZ

XYZ >> 123

123 > Do-Re-Me

#16 Edited by Kevhunt (113 posts) - - Show Bio

It no living man can kill the witch king

#17 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus said:

Witch King, no man can kill him...

That was a prophecy, not some kind of enchantment, he could be killed by a man, but it was prophecised he would be killed by a woman. Common misconception.

No the prophecy ensured that a man couldn't kill him allowing only non male humans able to kill him which given the spectrum of races in lotr isn't that much protection. We do not use the prophecy/curse in battles as that is OP. Along with that what is a dragon priest skill set? I am a lotr expert and that's about it.

What this guy said ^. lol Also a big LOTR fan here but still learning a lot I admit. But yeah will go Witch King here still.

#18 Edited by RogueShadow (10680 posts) - - Show Bio
@vaeternus said:

@rogueshadow said:

@vaeternus said:

Witch King, no man can kill him...

That was a prophecy, not some kind of enchantment, he could be killed by a man, but it was prophecised he would be killed by a woman. Common misconception.

@beezlebub said:

No the prophecy ensured that a man couldn't kill him allowing only non male humans able to kill him which given the spectrum of races in lotr isn't that much protection. We do not use the prophecy/curse in battles as that is OP. Along with that what is a dragon priest skill set? I am a lotr expert and that's about it.

What this guy said ^. lol Also a big LOTR fan here but still learning a lot I admit. But yeah will go Witch King here still.

Not true, all Glorfindel says is that he will fall in the future but not by the hands of any man. There is no mystical protection, it's just a prophecy.

Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall

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#19 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Well the prophecy winded up being true...so I'd have to disagree.

#20 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (17328 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus said:

@rogueshadow said:

@vaeternus said:

Witch King, no man can kill him...

That was a prophecy, not some kind of enchantment, he could be killed by a man, but it was prophecised he would be killed by a woman. Common misconception.

@beezlebub said:

No the prophecy ensured that a man couldn't kill him allowing only non male humans able to kill him which given the spectrum of races in lotr isn't that much protection. We do not use the prophecy/curse in battles as that is OP. Along with that what is a dragon priest skill set? I am a lotr expert and that's about it.

What this guy said ^. lol Also a big LOTR fan here but still learning a lot I admit. But yeah will go Witch King here still.

Not true, all Glorfindel says is that he will fall in the future but not by the hands of any man. There is no mystical protection, it's just a prophecy.

Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall

doesn't that make pursuing/fighting him useless?

The again, he wouldn't have fled if so ;)

#21 Posted by RogueShadow (10680 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Well the prophecy winded up being true...so I'd have to disagree.

I can't really see the logic, it's clearly based on prophecy of:

Be bloody, bold, and resolute; laugh to scorn

The power of man, for none of woman born

Shall harm Macbeth

Does that mean Macbeth was also invulnerable to harm from all men? Of course not.

I don't think prophecy equates to some kind of enchantment, it's just a foretelling of what will happen.

Another example is Cersei [ASOIAF] being prophecised to be killed by the Valonqar, does that mean none can kill her but him? Of course not, she can still be killed, but that is the way it will happen.

Witch King still wins this though.

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#22 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: I know it's a tad confusing but I'm just saying, what happened was prophesized by whoeever in the books. The movies left out a few things from the books, but that one point shows the nazgu flat out say "no man can kill me" implying any male apparently of any race in middle earth(or so the vibe I got at least) I think at one point even Gandalf had a little trouble with them if I'm not mistaken. Yet the girl killed him by stabbing him in the face.

#23 Posted by onilordasmodeus (2545 posts) - - Show Bio

I think one point that may be being over looked here is that the term "man" refers to one in the "race of men" (as oppose to the elves, dwarves, etc.) not the sex of said person. The girl in the movie said what she said as a quick jab or quip against the Witch King and nothing more.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

#24 Posted by MaccyD (4053 posts) - - Show Bio

Since we're including movie Witch King, he stomped Gandalf, who is probably more powerful than the Dragon Priest.

#25 Posted by RogueShadow (10680 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: I know it's a tad confusing but I'm just saying, what happened was prophesized by whoeever in the books. The movies left out a few things from the books, but that one point shows the nazgu flat out say "no man can kill me" implying any male apparently of any race in middle earth(or so the vibe I got at least) I think at one point even Gandalf had a little trouble with them if I'm not mistaken. Yet the girl killed him by stabbing him in the face.

He was cocky, he knew it was not his fate to die by the hands of any man so was not afraid, Macbeth acts the same way to Macduff. It doesn't literally mean he is invulnerable to the attacks of a male. Also, you say male of any race, but Merry stabbed the Witch king in the Knee [with a barrow blade], weakening him so that Eowyn can deliver the killing blow.

He's still very powerful and definitely win this fight, but he's not invulnerable to attacks of sufficient power, like from enchanted swords or powerful magic.

And it would depend how it is spelt, Man [capital] refers to the species of humans, male or female. But man [lowercase] refers to the sex. With Glorfindel it was spelt with a lowercase , suggesting that it would be a female who would kill him.

Following the logic that he cannot be harmed by any but a male, how then did Merry harm him? Shouldn't that be impossible? No because the barrow blades were made by the Westernesse, and could therefore harm the dark forces of Angmar, meaning that weapons and magic of sufficient power can harm him.

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#26 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@RogueShadow: Macbeth is a very different series though....then LOTR.

Still, no man or male can apparently harm him but a female can so this match is really easy win for Witch King aka the head Nazgu. Merry didn't harm him, when did Merry harm him? All he did was stab him in the back, that's not killing remotely close. Not to mention Merry nearly lost his hand in the process....all Merry did was distract Nazgu while Eowyn stabbed him in the face....all merry did was mildly distract him (and nearly losing his hand in the process)

#27 Posted by RogueShadow (10680 posts) - - Show Bio

@RogueShadow: Macbeth is a very different series though....then LOTR.

Still, no man or male can apparently harm him but a female can so this match is really easy win for Witch King aka the head Nazgu. Merry didn't harm him, when did Merry harm him? All he did was stab him in the back, that's not killing remotely close. Not to mention Merry nearly lost his hand in the process....all Merry did was distract Nazgu while Eowyn stabbed him in the face....all merry did was mildly distract him (and nearly losing his hand in the process)

He stabbed him in the knee removing the power that was binding his body to his will. I'm getting the impression you've only seen the films.

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#28 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: No I've read them while back though. The movies just left out some other details from the books. But Point is Merry just stabbed him, it's not like merry defeated him...plus Merry nearly lost his hand doing so. Just cause someone can somewhat effect someone doesn't mean they can defeat them, as someone else pointed out even Gandalf(a wizard) failed in the movies against the Nazgu so very little a hobbit, elf, man etc could do. That's pretty much what I'm saying.

But I do agree with you that Witch King wins here.

#29 Posted by RogueShadow (10680 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: No I've read them while back though. The movies just left out some other details from the books. But Point is Merry just stabbed him, it's not like merry defeated him...plus Merry nearly lost his hand doing so. Just cause someone can somewhat effect someone doesn't mean they can defeat them, as someone else pointed out even Gandalf(a wizard) failed in the movies against the Nazgu so very little a hobbit, elf, man etc could do. That's pretty much what I'm saying.

But I do agree with you that Witch King wins here.

All I'm saying is prophecy doesn't equal enchantment, I don't think anything suggests invulnerability to men, that's my opinion, agree to disagree. Yeah, I agree that the WKOA wins this with little hassle.

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#30 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (17328 posts) - - Show Bio
#31 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: I've never really agreed nor disagreed with enchantments, but there are apparently lots of spells in play with LOTR going on, curses etc. But yeah I'd respectfully disagree with that, I don't see man beating any nazgul. I believe also Gandalf states in the first film/part of LOTR, that nobody alive or no living man can defeat a nazgu at some point..

#32 Edited by RogueShadow (10680 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus said:

@rogueshadow: I've never really agreed nor disagreed with enchantments, but there are apparently lots of spells in play with LOTR going on, curses etc. But yeah I'd respectfully disagree with that, I don't see man beating any nazgul. I believe also Gandalf states in the first film/part of LOTR, that nobody alive or no living man can defeat a nazgu at some point..

Eh, Aragorn owns 5 at once, they have a weakness to flame and water as outlined in Unfinished Tales. They can be beaten with the right weapons or sufficiently powerful magic.

@princearagorn1 said:

@rogueshadow: @vaeternus: All that aside, deviantarters always do a fine job on stuff like this:

Deviant art is awesome, lots of cool ASOIAF art on there too. Way way off topic but I was just reading that Simon Baker makes $350,000 per episode.

:O

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#33 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: I think some of those side stories aren't canon with LOTR lore, like the similarion arch I know some people claim isn't canon or something...it's a little confusing. Aragorn I will say was by far the most badass of all men. Gandalf book version I'm sure could beat them, they powered him down a bit in the movies and even then he seemed pretty damn powerful to a degree.

#34 Posted by RogueShadow (10680 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: I think some of those side stories aren't canon with LOTR lore, like the similarion arch I know some people claim isn't canon or something...it's a little confusing. Aragorn I will say was by far the most badass of all men. Gandalf book version I'm sure could beat them, they powered him down a bit in the movies and even then he seemed pretty damn powerful to a degree.

The Silmarillion is definitely canon, Unfinished Tales is more canon than the films, and they are also stated to be vulnerable to fire in the main books, I just remember it being stated in UT too, I think it elucidates the water bit, their vulnerability to flame is unquestionable. Gandalf had a brief spar with TWK in TROTK and there was no conclusion.

I'm not questioning that he's insanely powerful, it's made clear in the books that his power increases with Sauron's. I just don't think that the prophecy means no man can kill him. E.g. Aragorn wielding an enchanted sword could kill him in my opinion, or another more extreme example, Thor would absolutely decimate him.

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#35 Posted by MaccyD (4053 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Didn't Aragorn not think that it was impossible t o fully kill them and only used fire as a distraction?

#36 Posted by Redmonkeyssj4 (842 posts) - - Show Bio

Dragon priest are no pushover by no means. This is just speculation, but aside from Miraak wouldn't Nahkriin be considered the 2nd most powerful Dragon priest due to his role. That role being to guard the skuldafn, it would make sense that Alduin placed a powerful Dragon priest there to fight the DB and keep him from entering Sovngard, but this is just speculation from the limited information on him. With that said if he is at least as powerful as Vahlok, whose battle with Miraak caused a large chunk of skyrim to come apart, he should take the witch king handily. But that's pure speculation.

#37 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: See I think the medium also matters too, like take Gandalf for example far more powerful in the books then movies(not that he was a slouch on film) lol but just saying. I'm sure Aragorn's skills can fight a few Nazgu not sure about killing them though...he showed he could take on just about anyone as far as H2H battle anyway. I never read UT's but that's interesting that fire can effect them.

In TROTK the Witch King shattered Gandalf's staff and knocked him off his horse. Wasn't really a fight, but clearly Gandalf didn't have the upper hand. Though to be fair, Gandalf didn't use his powers either for whatever reason... what's funny is he uses fire to light up his sword(so that's why I think it depends on the medium)

Thor is from a different universe so he may have no effect at all lol, not even Thor would be able to defeat Sauron or Gandalf at their best but I think I'll save that for another day lol.

#38 Posted by RogueShadow (10680 posts) - - Show Bio

@maccyd said:

@rogueshadow: Didn't Aragorn not think that it was impossible t o fully kill them and only used fire as a distraction?

I don't recall, but if he did, he might have meant that you can kill there Physical being but not there spirit, they reform. That's why Merry's Barrow blade was so significant, it weakened TWK's so Eowyn could deliver the killing blow, ending him properly.

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#39 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@maccyd: I agree, I just don't see any mortal man, wizard, elf, dwarf etc kill a Nazgu.

#40 Posted by RogueShadow (10680 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: See I think the medium also matters too, like take Gandalf for example far more powerful in the books then movies(not that he was a slouch on film) lol but just saying. I'm sure Aragorn's skills can fight a few Nazgu not sure about killing them though...he showed he could take on just about anyone as far as H2H battle anyway. I never read UT's but that's interesting that fire can effect them.

In TROTK the Witch King shattered Gandalf's staff and knocked him off his horse. Wasn't really a fight, but clearly Gandalf didn't have the upper hand. Though to be fair, Gandalf didn't use his powers either for whatever reason... what's funny is he uses fire to light up his sword(so that's why I think it depends on the medium)

Thor is from a different universe so he may have no effect at all lol, not even Thor would be able to defeat Sauron or Gandalf at their best but I think I'll save that for another day lol.

I'm not really taking the movie canon over the book, in the book he fights Gandalf and IIRC its inconclusive, I think its just mentioned in passing, its a brief spar.

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#41 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Yeah, you mentioned TROTK special edtion earlier so that's what I thought you referenced. But yeah, that's why I think it depends on the medium, since the books are a little different then the movies. The movies would probably be 5 hours each if they incorporated everything in there from the books.

#42 Posted by MaccyD (4053 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus: @rogueshadow: Yeah, the scene is epic in the book. It's pretty much a staredown and it actually hints that the witch king fears Gandalf.

#43 Edited by RogueShadow (10680 posts) - - Show Bio

@maccyd said:

@vaeternus: @rogueshadow: Yeah, the scene is epic in the book. It's pretty much a staredown and it actually hints that the witch king fears Gandalf.

I need to read the books again, I haven't read them in ages.

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#44 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@maccyd said:

@vaeternus: @rogueshadow: Yeah, the scene is epic in the book. It's pretty much a staredown and it actually hints that the witch king fears Gandalf.

Nice lol.

#45 Posted by TheIrishDoctor (455 posts) - - Show Bio

I have never understood the praise that LotR gets on these forums. I have read all the books, including the Silmarillion, I have seen all the movies, I think that they are some of the best literature in the English language...but I really, REALLY don't think that they're anywhere near as powerful as they are made out to be...

We see the amazing feats of the Valar in the Silmarillion in the land across the sea and whatnot, and we think that somehow this is an indication of what entities in Middle Earth can do. Even in the books, Gandalf showed very little actual power. Some cool feats of will that show-cased his ability to withstand curses, but actual combat power? He used a sword more than anything else, even in the books. He was a very low-key wizard. Which is part of what made him cool.

And maybe in his Maiar form, he is something far greater, but honestly, I'd place movie the Hobbit Gandalf as stronger than book Gandalf, in his mortal form.

And if Mortal Gandalf is a match for the Witch King, then a Dragon Priest (any Dragon Priest) should be able to wipe the floor with said Witch King. They are much more destruction magic oriented, even if they might be less impressive in more subtle magic.

Heck, the Dovahkiin, with the best armor he can have and the peak of his destruction magic, could probably give the entire armies of Mordor a good fight.

#46 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, Gandalf and Sauron are more or less immortal Gods in their pure form...at least the entity part of them. so I'd say they're pretty powerful, the undead army can beat just about anyone since the only way they are gone is if their curse if lifted and only the king of a certain place can do that....

#47 Posted by TheIrishDoctor (455 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, but there is no comparison here to Full Maiar Gandalf. Regular, human, mortal Gandalf was a decent match for the Witch King. That doesn't say a lot for the Witch King against an enemy like a Dragon Priest, which are some of the most powerful enemies in Skyrim, in a world where fire-breathing dragons, undead death lords, and demonic warriors are the norm.

#48 Posted by Beezlebub (1864 posts) - - Show Bio

I just visited this thread and a lot more posts have sprung forth. 0-0 Let me clear something up the prophecy refers to human males only as Merry was able to harm and weaken him and Eyowen killed him. Gandalf also could have defeated the WK as he is a Maiar and not technically a man. Also we don't use the curse in battle forum fights as it is unfair and makes the fights stupid.

#49 Posted by maximilian257 (10 posts) - - Show Bio

Witch-king would beat the dragon priest in the end.