Winter Solider VS Buffy The Vampire Slayer

Rules:

• Morals On/In Character
• Bucky: Cap's Shield, Steel Combat Knife, 9mm Handgun
• Buffy: Slayer Scythe, Steel Round Shield, Wooden Stakes
• No Knowledge/Random Encounter
• Starting 50 Feet & Visible: Muddy Field

@lukehero: nice match-up... let me ask you does Bucky have his Cap Uniform or Winter Soldier Uniform?

@serrure: WS bodyarmor.

hmm damn, now i have to think. that Cap armor is insanely tough and it would have been easy to say Bucky then.

Wy u du dis tu me?

i wanna say Winter Soldier because of the shield and metal arm

The Slayer. Way more super human by pre disposition, more combat experience (yes this is a fact), and that Slayer Scythe.... damn.

@sirfizzwhizz: Dat Cap Shield is pretty handy though...Also Bucky is a damn good shot.

Guns mean little when distance is closed, she is fast as Angel and Spike who can navigate a room full of people to close a over 20 foot distance in a blink of the eye.

And she outpaced bullets in motion before too.

Distance will be close quick. Bucky has no Gun in CQC feats. He would op for shield, and its over from there.

Barnes

@sirfizzwhizz: I thought the bullets in motion thing was Super Buffy? Guess not. Bucky does have his arm though that he can shock her with.

And Dex begins to stalk again lol.

Super Buffy can OUTRUN bullets, and hit hypersonic speeds. Not the same as reacting and moving in front of bullets like Spider Man can.

@sirfizzwhizz: I see.

Pretty sure I've seen numerous people saying Buffy would beat Deathstroke.

@frisky4: Under what conditions? Because gear would be a major factor.

Not really sure about the conditions. It was that people were arguing physical superiority. So if that's true, under this gear, I'm pretty sure Buffy would wreck.

@frisky4: Mmmm, win(maybe). Wreck. Hell No. Slade is more skilled, slade's armor is too good. In fact I would actually lean towards Slade.

No, when I said "Buffy would wreck" I meant that Buffy would wreck Winter Soldier.

@frisky4: I think Bucky has a chance here as well. That shield is very versatile. Also Bucky is a very good shotter. Also that arm of his gives him a chance to taze her down.

Ah okay. I guess it'd be Buffy 6 or 7/10 IMO.

Buffy defeats the Winter Solider LOL

Wut?

@night4345: Deathstroke is more skilled than Buffy.

@lukehero: What feat does Slade have that puts him over Buffy?

@night4345:

@lukehero: He can fight them by being superior in physicals not skill but fine I'll stop.

Bump

@lukehero: Buffy is more skilled. She beaten down beings way more OP than Slade is stats, has stated and shown inherent skill of thousand slayers before her, and has over 5 years training with the watchers in various martial art and weapon arts. She is better documented and shown. Not needing super armor either to win.

If Bucky can shoot Buffy before she closes the distance, then he wins, which isn't that unlikely, he's meant to be a good shot and all that. In close combat i think it's very close, though. I can see Buffy winning, due to her physical stats and overall skill and experience.

@sirfizzwhizz@lukehero That's the cover to Buffy Season 9 #11, which makes it invalid. And it's not even a feat of her 'outpacing bullets', to add. She's simply capable of your usual street-level bullet/aim dodging.

Regarding the debate itself, despite the seeming disparity between TV and Comic Buffy, my vote's for Winter Soldier taking the majority. I love Buff, but the only real advantages she holds over Buck are superior strength and durability, and even the latter is nothing a handgun's bullet can't pierce (as Warren Mears discovered...).

I see. Your a bigger Buffy fan than me then lol. I got that from a respect thread awhile ago, but never read many of her comics. Glad you told me this, I will get rid of that one.

However!!!! The Speed advantage is still very much there. Angel and Spike, and normal Vamps for that matter at times have all shown speeds far faster than 500 FPS. Peak Human can see and track 280 FPS. Fact is Buffy has more than once blitz Vampires that can dodge crossbow shots for laughs, and she put both Angel and Spike on the back foot. Something Winter Soldier cannot really consistently claim. he match Cap and sorta of Wolverine, but he never blitz beings that are depicted as blurs in both the show and comics, nor blitz multiple groups of them.

Gallery

She dodges bullets by the dozens from a woman who was the best trained in the Watchers, and had magic giving her the stats, including speed, of a Vamp. Documented with super speed, and aknowldge field agent. Buffy dodges that easy.

More rapid gun fire at point blank. Standard street leveler feat, but at point blank.

She has in a few scans like this one dodged the combine gun fire of a small army targeting her.

Dodges two Watcher hitmen with automatic weapons. These guys kill Vamps, and thus would have the aim and skill. Both firing from two sides miss her as she ran through there fire with fellow Slayer Faith.

All this evidence of speed and dodging gunfire from competent people or under intense circumstances is more than enough to say the gun matters little. She will close the distance, and then its her fight to win.

@sirfizzwhizz: @veshark: Long Live The Shark!!!!

@lukehero Haha, thanks.

@sirfizzwhizz

I do enjoy the Buffy franchise a great deal. I've seen the entire TV series, Angel, and have read the in-canon comics. Still, despite my love for the character, I stand by my original assessment that Buffy's only true advantages in this match are her strength and her durability. And you want to discuss speed, Winter Soldier has shown greater combat reflexes in that department.

First off, to note, I believe the showings you've presented come from Pokergeist's respect thread. No disrespect to Cadence, but that thread has a lot of glaring errors in terms of feat context (a number of Faith's feats are attributed to Buffy, which makes me believe he never read the actual issues). E.g., the first two speed showings you've presented are non-canon. These two scans come from the original 1998 Dark Horse series, from story-arcs Past Lives and A Stake to the Heart respectively, and aren't valid. The comics clash with the TV show's continuity, and the only confirmed pre-S8 canon comics are Origin, Tales of the Slayers/Vampires, and Fray.

The third feat (from Season 8, #4) really isn't anything noteworthy. Running around a room while bullets fired by featless cannon fodder zip past you is standard for any street-leveler. While her movements might make her harder to hit, in the cramped confines of a small room, with dozens of your fellow soldiers surrounding you, I doubt it's possible to get a clean shot. Also, context. Just prior to this, the soldiers were hit with their own energy cannon (Xander used a giant mirror to reflect the shot). They were all in disarray and wounded (and on fire), with no time to come to their senses before Buffy and Satsu ambushed them.

The fourth showing is the only legitimate feat of Buffy's moving fast enough to avoid being tagged, but again, standard fare for street-levelers. And I feel compelled to note that the Watchers' Council Special Operations Team have literally no good feats or actual wins in their three episode appearances, despite off-screen claims of being 'elite'.

Moving on, your argument that Buffy's encounters with vampires means she is as fast as them is also very flawed. Regular vamps get dusted by ordinary humans all the time in the Buffyverse (The Scoobies, Fang Gang, Gunn's crew, Daniel Holtz). The only consistent and true speed-blitzer is Angel, and even then, he doesn't use blitzing in 1v1 combat.

If you watch Buffy's sword fight with Angel in Season 2's Becoming, never is Angel shown to be moving as a blur. One could argue they're moving slightly faster than a regular combatant, but they're certainly not 'blitzing'. Not to mention in that fight, Angel could've killed the Slayer if not for his villain monologue, so it's hardly as though she always puts him 'on the back foot'. And Buffy has never been shown to blitz (moving at blur-like speeds) anyone to my knowledge. At best, the only thing you can infer from these encounters is that Buffy fights faster than your average human.

In contrast, while Winter Soldier has your standard bullet-dodging street-level fare, he also has far better showings of fighting opponents with solid speed feats and equal if not superior combat speed than vampires. Buck's taken down Crossbones (someone who's fast and skilled enough to give the bullet-timing Serum-enhanced Cap a hard fight) despite being ambushed. He's bested Black Widow in combat (a Russian super-soldier who could deflect a shot from the Punisher's rifle with her gauntlet). He's also defeated 50sCap, who while arguably insane, was still described by Falcon as being even faster than Cap. And that's not including Buck's encounters with characters like Cap himself, Wolverine, Daredevil, Iron Man et cetera. Of course there's specific context in each battle (you can find these on CV), but the point I'm trying to make is that Buck has matched opponents who have the feats to prove they're just as fast if not faster than vamps.

Not to mention that the Slayer has never evaded gunfire from a shooter with Buck's level of accuracy/reaction time before. Not the Watcher hitmen, or Darla, or Adam, and honestly those are the only instances I can think of. While the Slayer's steel shield offers some protection (I don't think a 9 mil can pierce that), there's no reason Buck can't fire at her exposed legs. Buffy can run fast - but 50 feet is still a fair distance. And even in the event Buff closes the distance, it doesn't mean that Buck becomes nullified. There's no reason why Buck won't use the gun at close-range if the opportunity presents itself. Buffy also doesn't have piercing durability - she was stabbed by a regular wooden stake by a regular vamp in Season 5's Fool for Love. Like the gun, there's no reason Buck's steel knife can't cut right through her.

Yes, Buffy's stronger and has greater blunt-force durability (bionic arm + impact-proof uniform closes the gap a little though). But Bucky has the environmental advantage (open area with 50 ft distance for him to shoot), superior accuracy and combat speed, superior offensive tools (a gun gives him ranged capabilities, and all his weapons can penetrate Buff's superhuman durability) and superior defensive tools (Cap's shield), and the fighting skills/tactics he's shown in the above battles demonstrate how dangerous he is. I'm not saying that trumping Buffy will be an easy win for Winter Soldier, but I'm arguing that he'll take the majority on account of his many edges.

To close, I just want to make special mention of the episode Seeing Red, where an untrained geek named Warren Mears was able to not only tag Buffy with an ordinary handgun, but a single shot to her upper chest KOed her and put her in the hospital. All it takes is one good shot from an expert marksman like Winter Soldier to defeat the Vampire Slayer:

@veshark: I made that respect thread ;)

Regardless, I know the comic feats are not "not canon" due to a statement from Joss Whedon that all comics that are written are approved by him before they are publish, and there is no direct statement to say they are not canon. Though the Wikipedia on Buffy Canon says otherwise, its unsourced and likely BS anyway. In fact in the comic itself it stated this happens between season so and so.

States for example here. Says straight up based on Whedon show, and approved by 20th century Fox who own the show. States further takes place between season so and so.

Same as above, and this is stated "created by Whedon" in the titles, taking place between season 3 somewhere as said below.Add to this the Dark Horse "Fray seasons" which contradict the show were written by Whedon himself. Still part of the what your calling "Not canon" Dark Horse series of the time. So as far as I am concern they are canon base on those two things regardless some errors. Maybe they could be states as EU for accuracy in which case I would still argue for as they are consistent with TV showings to major degree.

But I still find Buffy wrecking for stated reasons. Winter Soldier is a peak human win no legit super powers, and further does not have one legit speed blitz feat to his name or super speed moving feat. Dodging gunfire or a rifle round is not enough to say he has combat speed, just reaction time.

Gallery

All this is clear blitzing, along with the non low ball showing of Angel and Spike Speeds who are beaten by Buffy in a straight fight.

@sirfizzwhizz

I don't know if we're talking about the same respect thread, unless you happen to be Cadence. You don't have his tick of capitalizing certain words though. That said, if it really is your thread, there are a few errors that need correcting, bud.

No, I don't agree with that. I'd argue there's more pointing to these stories being non-canon than not. With the exception of the in-canon exceptions I mentioned, these pre-S8 comics are never referenced in the TV show, and many of the issues have clashing continuity problems with the series. I'm not sure what statement by Whedon you're referring to, but I'm fairly certain he didn't approve every single issue of the pre-S8 books. In fact, Whedon himself has implied that the Buffy material written by other authors (and not explicitly approved by him) should not be considered canon. From a Newsarama interview when the interviewer was discussing the Buffy comics and asked, "What does canon mean to you?":

"Canon is key, as is continuity. If you are massive nerd. Which I am. I believe there’s a demarcation between the creation and ancillary creations by different people."

"Demarcation" meaning a separation between canon (created and written by Whedon or approved by him) and non-canon (written by others). In a post on Whedonesque.com, announcing the new Buffy series, Whedon basically said the new comic is canon because he's the one writing it:

"Dark Horse Comics are starting a new Buffy comic, and as I understand it, it will take place after the end of Buffy and Angel and be canon in the Buffy world. And I understand it that way 'cause I'm writing it!"

And Whedon has outright stated that he wasn't very involved with the writing of these comics, much less having approved them. In this 2005 CHUD interview, when the interviewer asked, "How much attention do you pay to the peripheral stuff, the novels and the comics?", Whedon's response was:

"Not very much. I just don’t have time. I give them a few guidelines of things they should stay away from, things that we’re going to be dealing with or things that would disrupt the canon or things that are just antithetical to what I believe in."

Honestly, the evidence you've presented doesn't really prove anything. I'm not really sure what those credits pages illustrate. Just because they say "Based on the television show created by Joss Whedon...", that means that these comics were approved by him? All that tells us is that the comic is a franchise tie-in...nothing that points to it being official canon. And just because it mentions which time-frame it could take place in doesn't immediately point to it being canon either.

As for Fray, that's a unique situation. Whedon himself admits that there are continuity issues in the CHUD interview; when asked why the series finale did not match up with the comic's story of the future:

"No, that’s actually something I hope to deal with, either in the Spike format or in another series of Fray. There’s a discrepancy there that I plan to explain. I have a vision for it."

There are major differences between Fray and the other comic-books that you're using scans from, however. For one, Fray, as you admit, was written and created by Joss Whedon. That alone gives it more credit than anything else you've sourced. Secondly, the continuity clash has been acknowledged by Whedon himself, and Whedon simply hasn't written the solution yet. Lastly, Fray is heavily-referenced in confirmed-canon material. Most notably in the Season 8 comic, when Buffy goes to the future and meets Melaka Fray herself. Also, the Slayer scythe that Buffy's using in this debate? First popped up in Fray. So this story really isn't comparable to the non-canon Buffy comics. There's not a single canon reference to that time Buffy went to Vegas or that time she fought an abandonment demon, far as I know.

And if they're not canon, then they never happened, and one can't use them as valid showings of a character's prowess.

Moving on, I disagree with your conclusion. First, not to be pedantic, but Winter Soldier technically does have powers. His bionic arm grants him strength and a variety of other functions like an electric charge and an EMP. Also, he has the Infinity Formula in his blood, which grants him an extended lifetime. Putting all that aside though, a character not having powers is hardly a valid reason for him/her losing, or Batman wouldn't survive in this forum. It's not as though the power disparity between the two characters is so great; Buffy is a street level plus character at best. You also haven't addressed the numerous advantages I've listed for Bucky that he holds over Buff.

As for speed: again, none of those scans you're using are even canon. And even if - for the sake of argument - we hypothetically assume that they are, I don't see how any of those panels illustrate Buffy 'speed-blitzing'. Speed-blitzing is drawn in comics as the character moving as a blur. The only thing these pages show is that Buffy's a fast and efficient fighter, but nothing suggesting she's moving at Angel's blitzing speeds. Not to mention she's not even fighting enemies with notable speed feats here. They're all generic cannon fodder (scan 1 aside), and before one mentions that vampires are faster, they're really not by much - considering again, humans have been able to beat them repeatedly.

@veshark: overall this is what I gathered, you wish to dis used the feats of all the dark horse per seven season comics, in which case I still argue Buffy as per her show and comics wins base on her EU.

Either case it seem clear the dark horse collection I own is stated to tie in, and I use those feats as such. It seems good enough to me.

"Not very much. I just don’t have time. I give them a few guidelines of things they should stay away from, things that we’re going to be dealing with or things that would disrupt the canon or things that are just antithetical to what I believe in."

As Whedon said himself, he still had something to do with the comics, and did give advice to keep it align with the show. Sounds like they were doing there best as Tie Ins to me. Anyway, I am not he biggest Buffy fan, most I have is all Angel, but still have the Buffy comics made during the TV show and the TV show itself. So I like to think knowing what I do know she wins once distance is closed. Thats my stance though.

@sirfizzwhizz We'll just have to agree to disagree, I suppose.

There wasn't, Buffy debate for a long time... I don't even say who would win, but I will present few nice Buffy's feats:

Strenght/striking power: pretty consistently throwing people like ragdoll, breaking tick wood:

Also bending steel, lifting metal portcullis all by herself, with ease lifting Olaf's hammer with one hand whereas Spike couldn't do it with both hands, breaking chains, punching hand through demon's chest. etc.

Agility/fighting skills - she can jump pretty high even withouth running start, in combat she uses nice combination of eastern martial arts and acrobatics:

She is also known for using environment to her advantage - everything is a weapon for her - and for thinking tactically. She have also nasty tendency to not fight fair: ;)

Speed/reflexes - since even with closed eyes, she can block stab from Angelus, she must be faster than him:

and that's quite impressive considering that he can do THAT without a problem:

She also caught crossbow bolt herself, at point blank range, set off a bear trap without getting caught in it, defeating entire team of Initiative's enhanced soldiers in just twenty-eight seconds, in comic she is even capable of dodging machine gun fire:http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/73500/4469256-8470614903-39479.png

Durability/pain resistance - she took quite a beating from Glory and still was able to grab adult men on her arms and jump with him through glass window, from third floor to concrete pavement without passing out or without any sustaining serious injury:

Among her other noticeable durability feats is taking sledgehammer hit to the spine and suffering no injuries and being stabbed through stomach withouth passing out - after all she was still able to keep pace with speeding bus:

Again, I don't say who ould win, but I think that Buffy is not without chances.

@lukehero: There's not even the SLIGHTEST question about it---Buffy would win. And Slade is NOT more skilled than Buffy; The Slayer retains the skills of the slayers before her (which goes back QUITE a number of years) IN ADDITION to the rigorous training in melee, martial arts, and weapons combat training Buffy has undergone over the years.

Barnes is a bad man---but due to her super human speed, strength, endurance, durability and fantastic combat skills: BUFFY WINS.

@theonewhoknows: Why are you tagging me? Tag Veshark who just layer out why he said Barnes wins. I'm just the host. And this isn't a Slade vs buffy board, that convo has been dropped.

@lukehero: The VAST MAJORITY of my post was about Buffy beating Winter Soldier. I simply responded to your earlier claim you made to Night4345 that, quote, "Deathstroke is more skilled than Buffy". Though you are the host, if you make a claim in a thread that people like myself (and Night4345 and SirFizzWhizz and anyone ELSE, for that matter) thinks is incorrect, you can expect that you will be told that you are wrong, usually with reasons why it is felt your assessment is not so.

As for Veshark, (who you actively cheered for-your right to do so, of course, but that is another reason why your status as an impartial, "just the host" figure in this thread is invalidated) others, in my opinion, more than adequately picked apart his reasoning for claiming Barnes would win, so no need to tag him for now.

Why do so many of the Buffy Fans seem brain dead?

@lukehero: no different than Flash, Master Chief, Wolverine, or Batman fans lol.

@sirfizzwhizz: Touché

Buffy

Bucky shoots her. She'd stomp if he didn't have guns, though.

Well she has dodged laser rifles before when she took out a bunch of initiative soldiers . So her speed show he wont shoot her with easy.