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#1 Posted by AgentJ07 (128 posts) - - Show Bio

Buffy from the show. Both Winchesters have one desert eagle on them. Buffy has a stake. Starts 30ft apart.

#2 Edited by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio

Buffy stomps if she can get them before getting shot.

#3 Posted by amseaton (242 posts) - - Show Bio

Buffy takes them in H2H. Dean falls in love.....

#4 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4434 posts) - - Show Bio

Buffy stomps if she can get them before getting shot.

She can, she stomps hard.

#5 Posted by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio

@amseaton said:

Buffy takes them in H2H. Dean falls in love.....

... and then it ends in S-E-X lol

#6 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4434 posts) - - Show Bio

@amseaton said:

Buffy takes them in H2H. Dean falls in love.....

... and then it ends in S-E-X lol

She'd probably go for Sam, she has a thing for enhanced humans and non-humans, Dean is too regular.

#7 Posted by dondave (38897 posts) - - Show Bio

Head Shot

#8 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4434 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

Head Shot

They aren't set up for that, she can dodge from that distance.

#9 Posted by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio

@carter_esque said:

@amseaton said:

Buffy takes them in H2H. Dean falls in love.....

... and then it ends in S-E-X lol

She'd probably go for Sam, she has a thing for enhanced humans and non-humans, Dean is too regular.

True

#10 Posted by isaac_clarke (5479 posts) - - Show Bio

Sam was nailing a sniper's scope shooting with his hand-gun, while running from said bullets being fired at him. And Dean has a habit for making kill-shots when required.

Either way it doesn't matter since Sam solos.

Current Sam has had an angel inside him since episode one of season 9. As long as Gadriel is inside Sam, he will be healed and he could literally end the fight by revealing his true form. Not much of a fight.

#11 Posted by buttersdaman000 (10575 posts) - - Show Bio

Current Sam has an Angel hiding in his body. Against him, Buffy will wind up fried. Regular Sam and Dean though, she would win

#12 Posted by HolySerpent (12819 posts) - - Show Bio

buffy wins.

#13 Posted by Wyldsong (5898 posts) - - Show Bio

Regular Sam and Dean, Buffy takes it. Sam with the angel...Winchester's win.

#14 Posted by Fallschirmjager (18967 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:

Regular Sam and Dean, Buffy takes it. Sam with the angel...Winchester's win.

Current Sam has an Angel hiding in his body. Against him, Buffy will wind up fried. Regular Sam and Dean though, she would win

these.

#15 Posted by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio
#16 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4434 posts) - - Show Bio

@fallschirmjager said:

@wyldsong said:

Regular Sam and Dean, Buffy takes it. Sam with the angel...Winchester's win.

@buttersdaman000 said:

Current Sam has an Angel hiding in his body. Against him, Buffy will wind up fried. Regular Sam and Dean though, she would win

these.

@isaac_clarke said:

Sam was nailing a sniper's scope shooting with his hand-gun, while running from said bullets being fired at him. And Dean has a habit for making kill-shots when required.

Either way it doesn't matter since Sam solos.

Current Sam has had an angel inside him since episode one of season 9. As long as Gadriel is inside Sam, he will be healed and he could literally end the fight by revealing his true form. Not much of a fight.

Buffy took out a patrol team, of trained soldiers hunting her, in 28 seconds. I don't care how good they are with guns, they will have a hell of a time getting a head shot on the slayer before she beats the crap out of them if they are not already set up in position to do so, which is prep. There is no prep here.

Even with the angel I say Buffy wins. Why you ask? This is not a death match and the angel inside of Sam does not show up unless Sam is in danger of being killed, or the wicked witch would not have been able to mindrape him for nearly an entire episode. Sam was KOed by demons before the angel surfaced in Devil May Care and the only reason he surfaced was because demons would have certainly been a threat to Sam after he was unconscious. Sam gets his neck slashed in Dog Dean Afternoon, the angel came in later, and the MOTW still managed to get his hands on Sam by knocking him out, so at most he will come in to heal Sam of lethal wounds and disappear. Since Buffys MO generally does not involve killing people meaning none of her attacks should deliver wounds in the neighborhood of lethal, thus there will be no reason for the angel to surface before he is actually KOed (since he has been knocked out at least twice with the angel inside him), which means Buffy wins, angel or not.

#17 Posted by rcranium (100 posts) - - Show Bio

The Winchesters fight demons and other monsters hand to hand all the time. They must have some kind of enhanced physical abilities from their showings.

#18 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4434 posts) - - Show Bio

@rcranium said:

The Winchesters fight demons and other monsters hand to hand all the time. They must have some kind of enhanced physical abilities from their showings.

Yes it's called PIS, the same PIS that makes monsters and demons forget they are superhuman and can take gun shots and fall from buildings unharmed, and that some of them (demons) have telekinesis and teleport, yet they can be wrestled to ground by two humans. There is nothing enhanced about Sam without the obvious supernatural things that have enhanced him before and Dean prides himself on being just a regular human being.

#19 Edited by Dextersinister (6512 posts) - - Show Bio

@rcranium said:

The Winchesters fight demons and other monsters hand to hand all the time. They must have some kind of enhanced physical abilities from their showings.

On the odd occasion but rarely, fights almost always end in villain stupidity.

I am not joking when I say that most fights against the episode bad end with one brother getting thrown against a wall and then the villain turns to the other and starts choking him regardless if they have TK, bladed weapons or super strength that can rip out hearts. That villain then gets stabbed by the brother they ignored.

#20 Posted by rcranium (100 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol, you may be right. They are the heroes after all, but then PIS was involved with Buffy all the time also.

#21 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4434 posts) - - Show Bio

@rcranium said:

Lol, you may be right. They are the heroes after all, but then PIS was involved with Buffy all the time also.

Buffy at least has superhuman powers, and was physically a match for most villains, she also had a team and an entire episode (sometimes season) of prep in most cases.

#22 Posted by isaac_clarke (5479 posts) - - Show Bio

Their failure to actually shoot her compared to the Winchesters happily gunning people down with ridiculous accuracy while under-fire / running isn't my problem. It's not like military weapons didn't pop out throughout the series to save Buffy's rear when magic hammers / axes didn't.

Even with the angel I say Buffy wins. Why you ask? This is not a death match and the angel inside of Sam does not show up unless Sam is in danger of being killed, or the wicked witch would not have been able to mindrape him for nearly an entire episode. Sam was KOed by demons before the angel surfaced in Devil May Care and the only reason he surfaced was because demons would have certainly been a threat to Sam after he was unconscious. Sam gets his neck slashed in Dog Dean Afternoon, the angel came in later, and the MOTW still managed to get his hands on Sam by knocking him out, so at most he will come in to heal Sam of lethal wounds and disappear. Since Buffys MO generally does not involve killing people meaning none of her attacks should deliver wounds in the neighborhood of lethal, thus there will be no reason for the angel to surface before he is actually KOed (since he has been knocked out at least twice with the angel inside him), which means Buffy wins, angel or not.

This thread was created three days after Gadriel assumed complete control over Sam. Kinda of null & voids your argument.

#23 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (20261 posts) - - Show Bio

lol. Winchesters have nothing on buffy. She's faster, stronger, and a lot more skilled.

Only way for them to win is beg help from an angel or something. Considering current sam is dead and gadriel has taken over, it's pretty much one on one. And beating buffy on his own is beyond dean's dreams.

#24 Posted by isaac_clarke (5479 posts) - - Show Bio

lol. Winchesters have nothing on buffy. She's faster, stronger, and a lot more skilled.

The fact they use guns certainly is an edge.

Only way for them to win is beg help from an angel or something. Considering current sam is dead and gadriel has taken over, it's pretty much one on one. And beating buffy on his own is beyond dean's dreams.

Gadriel still flashes his wings and turns her brain to mush on eye-sight.

#25 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4434 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke:

Their failure to actually shoot her compared to the Winchesters happily gunning people down with ridiculous accuracy while under-fire / running isn't my problem. It's not like military weapons didn't pop out throughout the series to save Buffy's rear when magic hammers / axes didn't.

What? The point is if she can take down a military patrol that was supposed to be sneaking her in 28 seconds, she will have no problem with Sam and Dean regardless of how accurately they can return fire. They are only starting from 30ft apart, her speed can close that gap with little trouble.

This thread was created three days after Gadriel assumed complete control over Sam. Kinda of null & voids your argument.

Actually, bringing up that fact invalidates your entire argument. If Gadriels assumed complete control over Sam, we are no longer dealing with Sam. Sam is now just a vessel and for all intents and purposes when an angel takes over completely the human is no longer part of the equation except for providing the vessel. When completely taken over there is no Sam, it is now Gadriel, just like Castiel is not Jimmy ect. The fact that there is an angel inside of him that could come out and heal him if he was near death was an ok defense, except as I stated he has been KOed 2 times while this was true. The only way your argument works is for Sam to be replaced by Gadriel, meaning you have taken Sam out of the equation. So like I said, Buffy wins even if he has the angel inside of him, because to give control to the angel means he is no longer Sam and thus cannot participate in the match.

#26 Edited by isaac_clarke (5479 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke:

Their failure to actually shoot her compared to the Winchesters happily gunning people down with ridiculous accuracy while under-fire / running isn't my problem. It's not like military weapons didn't pop out throughout the series to save Buffy's rear when magic hammers / axes didn't.

What? The point is if she can take down a military patrol that was supposed to be sneaking her in 28 seconds, she will have no problem with Sam and Dean regardless of how accurately they can return fire. They are only starting from 30ft apart, her speed can close that gap with little trouble.

I don't know what this military patrol ever did to become interchangable with Sam and Dean. I'm pretty sure their showings in fighting skill, strength and lord knows durability is better than said patrol ever displayed. Buffy on the other hand I can't recall no-showing gunfire, especially from anyone close to the insane accuracy the Winchesters have displayed.

Actually, bringing up that fact invalidates your entire argument. If Gadriels assumed complete control over Sam, we are no longer dealing with Sam. Sam is now just a vessel and for all intents and purposes when an angel takes over completely the human is no longer part of the equation except for providing the vessel. When completely taken over there is no Sam, it is now Gadriel, just like Castiel is not Jimmy ect. The fact that there is an angel inside of him that could come out and heal him if he was near death was an ok defense, except as I stated he has been KOed 2 times while this was true. The only way your argument works is for Sam to be replaced by Gadriel, meaning you have taken Sam out of the equation.

The issue here is Sam Winchester is Gadriel. Unless specified otherwise the battle-forum rules are quite clear:

Be Specific About Fights

I think this is probably the most important rule, and when it’s followed, many other problems go away. When starting a battle you need to be specific about how everything is going to go down.....

When these things are left out it’s generally assumed that characters are fighting to the best of their ability but still within the limits of their personality, using their standard gear, have no prep time, and are their current mainstream versions. Their starting distance is close and the setting is most often a city. Without any specifications to a battle, those are what we go by. It’s always best to give as much information about the fight in the first post.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/battle-forum-rules-2-0-compulsory-reading-1505000/#0

It's not like Sam Winchester is the first character to deal with being possessed them and being used on the battle-forums - the Sentry (at least before his Uncanny Avenger's incarnation) was the Void and arguments made had to take that into consideration. Or the Worthy during Fear Itself, or Ghost Rider, Spiderman, Venom - etc.

So like I said, Buffy wins even if he has the angel inside of him, becauseto give control to the angel means he is no longer Sam and thus cannot participate in the match.

This is not a thing on the battle-forums.

#27 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4434 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke:

The point is it took 28 seconds, without the PIS that is Supernatural Sam and Dean would not be able to handle Buffy she can take them down in less time than that squad

The thread says Sam. If the angel takes over completely then Sam is not in the battle. Sam is defined by his soul being in charge of his body. The show is pretty clear about angles, demons and meat suits/vessels. When the invading being is in control for all intents and purposes they are that angle or demon. The void is a personality disorder, it is part of the Sentry, Sam and the angel are two separate beings. The most current version of Sam is broken being held together by supernatural duct tape, he has no conscious ability to tape the power of the angel because they are not the same being.

It e

This reminds me of a battle featuring Sams most powerful incarnation and many people said when he was Lucifers vessel, but that was not a powerful version of Sam it was a regular version of Lucifer.

#28 Posted by HBKTimHBK (5301 posts) - - Show Bio

It's times like these where I wish I watched Supernatural.

#29 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (20261 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke:

The fact they use guns certainly is an edge.

Ah. The comment was about basic stats.

Gadriel still flashes his wings and turns her brain to mush on eye-sight.

Gadriel isn't in the fight to begin with. The fight is sam, who is dead if you want the current version.

#30 Edited by Rouflex (20448 posts) - - Show Bio

It's times like these where I wish I watched Supernatural.

Just tap Supernatural Streaming in google than search for something and you can watch it o_O...

Online
#31 Posted by Erkan12 (3092 posts) - - Show Bio

Winchesters wins, they are fighting against creatures with enhanced strength all the time, Buffy can't win.

#32 Posted by isaac_clarke (5479 posts) - - Show Bio

It's times like these where I wish I watched Supernatural.

It is probably the closest thing to a Whedonishque show that isn't done by Whedon. I could give you a minor guide to skip a good chunk of the filler if you'd like for one-night to power through most of the series.

Ah. The comment was about basic stats.

Which given the Winchesters fight opponents with her stats or better I don't see why that even matters.

Gadriel isn't in the fight to begin with. The fight is sam, who is dead if you want the current version.

Two things to point out:

Current Sam is Gadriel. Second, that isn't how angel possession works in the series. The only soul-less vessels to date consists of potentially Castiel's Jimmy (anyone of his deaths could release his spirit) and Anna. Sam in particular seems the most conscious of vessels in the series given his run with Lucifer.

You're trying to use an assortment of characters with no-where near the amount of feats the Winchestors have and pretend Buffy beating them is some-sort of feat that proves she takes down the Winchestors, who have beaten better. Dean alone has absolutely insane durability / pain tolerance, Sam went one on one with the very super-human Jake back in Season 2.

And again does Buffy at all in the series no-sell gunfire?

The thread says Sam. If the angel takes over completely then Sam is not in the battle. Sam is defined by his soul being in charge of his body. The show is pretty clear about angles, demons and meat suits/vessels. When the invading being is in control for all intents and purposes they are that angle or demon.

The forum rules don't differentiate between souls or being possessed.

The void is a personality disorder, it is part of the Sentry, Sam and the angel are two separate beings. The most current version of Sam is broken being held together by supernatural duct tape, he has no conscious ability to tape the power of the angel because they are not the same being.

I could post scans of the Void and Sentry fighting one another on panel. Even in Uncanny Avengers the Void is chalked up to being a separate entity that abandon's the Sentry growing bored of the constant destruction / rebirth state he was in.

It e

This reminds me of a battle featuring Sams most powerful incarnation and many people said when he was Lucifers vessel, but that was not a powerful version of Sam it was a regular version of Lucifer.

Regular Lucifer is a disembodied cosmic being that can do little to affect reality outside heaven or hell. Even in a vessel his power is limited by the vessel itself (namely the preference of having Sam to be at his most powerful).

#33 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (20261 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke:

Which given the Winchesters fight opponents with her stats or better I don't see why that even matters.

Which enemies, exactly? I don't recall anyone with either buffy's strength, or speed, or skills, Except perhaps season 2 jake, who isn't anywhere close to buffy in durability/speed/skills. Buffy's enemies, from the limited episodes I've seen, are much better fighters. Lagos, for one, was quite stronger than jake, strong enough to two-shot faith. Buffy took his blows and walked away like nothing. @cadencev2: should have more examples from s4 and ahead.

It matters because they have no PIS on their side here, nor can they trick her in a circle/ draw a salt line to keep her away.

Current Sam is Gadriel. Second, that isn't how angel possession works in the series. The only soul-less vessels to date consists of potentially Castiel's Jimmy (anyone of his deaths could release his spirit) and Anna. Sam in particular seems the most conscious of vessels in the series given his run with Lucifer.

Current Sam isn't gadriel. Gadriel's a different entity possessing sam's body. meaning sam is unable to move it with his own will, meaning, useless in a battle or anything in the real world. Best sam can do is 'scratch at the door', to quote lucifer, while buffy demolishes dean.

As gadriel isn't in the OP, he is useless no matter what powers he has.

Btw, I recall gadriel clearly saying 'sam is gone', or something like that, while lucifer mentions sam being present. Can't watch the episode right now, so not sure about this.

#34 Posted by UNKNOWNUSER101 (337 posts) - - Show Bio

Whether it's regular Sam, demon Sam or current sam they still win. She is not a bullet dodger and starting from 30ft away is not going to help her.

#35 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4434 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: You're trying to use an assortment of characters with no-where near the amount of feats the Winchestors have and pretend Buffy beating them is some-sort of feat that proves she takes down the Winchestors, who have beaten better. Dean alone has absolutely insane durability / pain tolerance, Sam went one on one with the very super-human Jake back in Season 2.

They don't need feats. They are part of a special task forces that fights demons. Sam and Dean get their training from a dad that was military trained, except his training did not go into the realm of training the initiative did. Without PIS Sam and Dean can't do jack compared to Buffy. She at least has superhuman stats in every department,and uses those stats all the time unlike their opponents.

Stop leaning on the forum rules, because they don't apply in this battle. Point is, if an angel takes over Sam, then it's not Sam, it is the angel. You know as well as anybody, that Sam and Dean will get beat down by Buffy!

#36 Posted by isaac_clarke (5479 posts) - - Show Bio

Any generic demon they've fought. Any of the monsters that are human meat-grinders that pop up throughout the series that doesn't instantly one-shot them.

I don't recall anyone with either buffy's strength, or speed, or skills, Except perhaps season 2 jake, who isn't anywhere close to buffy in durability/speed/skills.

Her high-ends for strength consist of lifting a metal beam and the Troll-God hammer - the latter being completely inconsistent with her much more common depiction of being marginally stronger than Angel or Spike. The first no-name demon Sam and Dean fight opening a pressurized door in flight that required something remarked to have over 2 tons of pressure.

She literally has nothing on generic demons for durability / damage soak - the only reason Winchester's can do anything is due to plot-knives that can kill them - otherwise they walk through almost everything else. If we want to talk speed - the Winchesters have also killed angels at least twice and spent a good amount of time avoiding getting shot throughout the series - specially Sam.

Vampire Gordon is another mention (Fresh Blood was probably the best depiction Vampires had for super-strength / speed in the series to date). And the vast majority of what they fight has much better durability than whatever Buffy was sporting. And she's still got nothing on the speed of bullets.

Buffy's enemies, from the limited episodes I've seen, are much better fighters. Lagos, for one, was quite stronger than jake, strong enough to two-shot faith. Buffy took his blows and walked away like nothing. @cadencev2: should have more examples from s4 and ahead.

Supernatural isn't a universe where the monsters rise out of the crypt knowing martial arts for no reason - they mostly rely on superhuman stats / various powers / flat-out nigh- invulnerability. I could care less of Lagos magically one-upped Faith just to go down to someone with nearly identical physical stats / fighting ability.

It matters because they have no PIS on their side here, nor can they trick her in a circle/ draw a salt line to keep her away.

Buffy relied heavily on various plot devices / prep / dumb enemies to avoid her demise just as frequently as the Winchesters - the only difference is they use guns. Not to mention Buffy isn't nigh-unkillable like Demons, telekinesis, intangability or what have you - the reason the Winchestor's rely on these items is because they're fighting is MUCH more powerful than a generic vampire fresh out of the dirt or a frat's demi-god demon in a well.

Current Sam isn't gadriel. Gadriel's a different entity possessing sam's body. meaning sam is unable to move it with his own will, meaning, useless in a battle or anything in the real world. Best sam can do is 'scratch at the door', to quote lucifer, while buffy demolishes dean.

And by scratch you mean out-right hijack his body back like he does to Lucifer in the same episode? Angels without a vessel can't do much - Sam happens to be currently the vessel for Gadriel - who won't magically disappear in this battle because people don't like the fact Buffy gets flash-fried. Sure it's unfair, but dem the rules.

As gadriel isn't in the OP, he is useless no matter what powers he has.

Read the Battle Forums rules in regards to the most current iteration of a character.

Btw, I recall gadriel clearly saying 'sam is gone', or something like that, while lucifer mentions sam being present. Can't watch the episode right now, so not sure about this.

It's an expression on Gadriel's part - Sam is on the same boat Jimmy was for Castiel - back-burner to a much more recovered angel. Still somewhat conscious of events, but unable to do anything about it.

So was Xander, Willow (long before going dark) and Oz when Buffy left Sunnydale. They certainly wouldn't have lasted ten seconds against Sam and Dean.

Sam and Dean get their training from a dad that was military trained, except his training did not go into the realm of training the initiative did.

We're talking about two brothers who were actively trained as children to fight monsters. John was literally having them learn how to fire rifles / shotguns rather than play catch.

Without PIS Sam and Dean can't do jack compared to Buffy. She at least has superhuman stats in every department,and uses those stats all the time unlike their opponents.

Almost every other episode of Supernatural consists of the Winchesters being pinned to walls, thrown across rooms like ragdolls - sometimes through walls, on occasion being beaten to a bloody pulp and at someone's mercy. Pretending that they walk through everything when they often rely on misdirection, loose morals and godly pain-tolerance / fighting ability episode to episode is intentionally ignoring the context of the series to date.

We're talking opponents that would beat Buffy without issue that they have to over-come using their weaknesses often against them - because Pagan Gods, Demons, Spirits or what have you cannot be harmed by normal methods.

Stop leaning on the forum rules, because they don't apply in this battle.

They apply in every battle - that's the whole point. Namely why this thread is on the battle-forums.

Point is, if an angel takes over Sam, then it's not Sam, it is the angel.

Then you don't have a firm gasp of how angel possession works. Angels simply cannot act without a vessel - which in this case Sam is currently in the series.

You know as well as anybody, that Sam and Dean will get beat down by Buffy!

Apparently not - she has nothing for bullet-timing feats and her opponents regularly beat better without hesitation. Seriously how many people has Buffy killed compared to the Winchestor brothers? If they're out for blood she's toaste.

#37 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (20261 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke:

Let's make the point clearer:

1. Buffy is stronger, faster, more durable, and more skilled. Without plot involved, she wins. Only way the two might stand a chance is because of the gun. Otherwise nope.

2. Wichesters fight enemies stronger than buffy and win. The reason is plot, and that the enemies have specific weaknesses, neither of which are involved here. I don't recall them entering direct combat against anyone on buffy's level and win, they mostly use stuff specially made for the enemy, which they cannot do against buffy.

3. OP does not involve Gadriel. Current sam is dead, he stays dead. Whether sam is a vessel or not, as long as OP doesn't involve Gadriel, who is a separate entity possessing sam's body, in not affecting the fight.

#38 Posted by isaac_clarke (5479 posts) - - Show Bio

Let's make the point clearer:

1. Buffy is stronger, faster, more durable, and more skilled.

The highlighted are debatable. It takes Buffy a couple of seasons before she actually starts to move faster than a snail's pace / shows any real fighting ability - which even then is mostly with this omni-directional awareness of where hearts are to poke with her stake / throwing things. So I guess she's in Bobby's league.

Without plot involved, she wins. Only way the two might stand a chance is because of the gun. Otherwise nope.

The gun? You mean guns. That fire bullets. Bullets that would not miss Buffy and would punch holes in her chest.

2. Wichesters fight enemies stronger than buffy and win. The reason is plot, and that the enemies have specific weaknesses, neither of which are involved here.

Buffy does the exact same thing on an episode to episode basis with just generic vampires. Both shows sport the exact same monster killing formula; the difference is the monsters on Supernatural are much more powerful. The Winchester brothers have to deal with literal human-meat-grinders that can tear hearts out of people's chests easily, yet physically go at them and still win. That was Dean's purgatory trip.

I don't recall them entering direct combat against anyone on buffy's level and win, they mostly use stuff specially made for the enemy, which they cannot do against buffy.

Normal bullets will work fine, so I guess they are equipped to handle Buffy.

3. OP does not involve Gadriel. Current sam is dead, he stays dead.

Again you're ignoring how angel possession even works and ignoring the preview for the rest of Season 9.

There would be no point for Cas and Crowley to be roped into to remove Gadriel from Sam if he was actually dead. Not to mention Anna was the only soul-less vessel for an Angel in the series. Outside that there is potentially Castiel - which in any number of his deaths could potentially have release Jimmy's soul.

Whether sam is a vessel or not, as long as OP doesn't involve Gadriel, who is a separate entity possessing sam's body, in not affecting the fight.

Can you point me in the direction of the battle-forum rule that supports this philosophy where the 'current' version of a character must be the one without an alternate entity at the wheel. Because I'd like to point you at a couple dozen Sentry threads.

Current Sam is Gadriel - no reason to complain about him flash frying Buffy easily.

#39 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (20261 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke:

The highlighted are debatable. It takes Buffy a couple of seasons before she actually starts to move faster than a snail's pace / shows any real fighting ability - which even then is mostly with this omni-directional awareness of where hearts are to poke with her stake / throwing things. So I guess she's in Bobby's league.

In bobby's league? I'm letting you re-read what you posted. Bobby doesn't have the feats to say he's the most skilled in supernatural verse, hell, even more skilled than winchesters, much less anything a match for buffy.

Buffy does the exact same thing on an episode to episode basis with just generic vampires. Both shows sport the exact same monster killing formula; the difference is the monsters on Supernatural are much more powerful. The Winchester brothers have to deal with literal human-meat-grinders that can tear hearts out of people's chests easily, yet physically go at them and still win. That was Dean's purgatory trip.

Uh. No. Buffy actually fights and beats most of the monsters H2h. Winchesters tend to trap them in spells and stuff.

Monsters in supernatural have more abilities. Yet they also have serious weaknesses.

I don't see why we are even running around the point. The competition isn't about which monsters are stronger.

Buffy is stronger, faster, more skilled, and more durable. Meaning, without PIS, she wins.

There would be no point for Cas and Crowley to be roped into to remove Gadriel from Sam if he was actually dead. Not to mention Anna was the only soul-less vessel for an Angel in the series. Outside that there is potentially Castiel - which in any number of his deaths could potentially have release Jimmy's soul.

Can you point me in the direction of the battle-forum rule that supports this philosophy where the 'current' version of a character must be the one without an alternate entity at the wheel. Because I'd like to point you at a couple dozen Sentry threads.

Current Sam is Gadriel - no reason to complain about him flash frying Buffy easily.

Problem is, can sam actually move his body and hit buffy if he wanted to? No. He cannot.

Does OP mention Gadriel fighting? No, it doesn't.

The match is reduced to dean, who can actually do anything, sam, who is unable to affect the fight. Gadriel is possessing the body, but has no reason to fight, or not to fight. OP doesn't mention him, so he doesn't.

#40 Posted by isaac_clarke (5479 posts) - - Show Bio

Bobby has the same amazing spatial awareness to throw / stab things where they need to penetrate. The closest thing to fighting skill Buffy has.

Uh. No. Buffy actually fights and beats most of the monsters H2h. Winchesters tend to trap them in spells and stuff.

Re-watch Buffy's kill count. The majority of the actual slaying consists of sharp pointy things being used to do the job she physically can't.

Your argument is they occasionally use a devil's trap or holy fire?

Monsters in supernatural have more abilities. Yet they also have serious weaknesses.

Significantly better stats and significantly stronger. You're right - having to melee / stab demons critically to actually kill them with plot knives is way too easy.

I don't see why we are even running around the point. The competition isn't about which monsters are stronger.

Buffy is stronger, faster, more skilled, and more durable. Meaning, without PIS, she wins.

Repeating yourself while ignoring the obvious. Both her opponents have guns and have little issue killing people with said guns.

Winchesters stomp with or without the angel.

Does OP mention Gadriel fighting? No, it doesn't.

It doesn't mention anything about the version of the character outside 'Sam Winchester' - which translates according to the battle-forum rules (those pesky things!) into Gadriel Sam. You've got no ground here with the forum rules.

The match is reduced to dean, who can actually do anything, sam, who is unable to affect the fight. Gadriel is possessing the body, but has no reason to fight, or not to fight. OP doesn't mention him, so he doesn't.

Circular nonsense continues.

#41 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (20261 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke:

Bobby has the same amazing spatial awareness to throw / stab things where they need to penetrate. The closest thing to fighting skill Buffy has.

"the closest thing to fighting skill buffy has?"

You mean, beside the ones she shows throughout the show? And what 'amazing spatial awareness' are you talking about?

Repeating yourself while ignoring the obvious. Both her opponents have guns and have little issue killing people with said guns.

Not ignoring the obvious. Pointing out the obvious. She has massive stat advantage on them. Only reason they might win is the gun.

It doesn't mention anything about the version of the character outside 'Sam Winchester' - which translates according to the battle-forum rules (those pesky things!) into Gadriel Sam. You've got no ground here with the forum rules.

Circular nonsense continues.

Yes. "Sam Winchester". He is unable to even move his body. He's not doing anything at all.

OP doesn't even mention gadriel. Which 'pesky' rule allows to characters not mentioned in the OP to fight? Go on.

#42 Posted by isaac_clarke (5479 posts) - - Show Bio

You mean, beside the ones she shows throughout the show? And what 'amazing spatial awareness' are you talking about?

Re-watch season one Buffy in all it's glory and tell me that with a straight face. It takes seasons for Buffy to hit a point where she actually looks like she knows how to fight, but even then it isn't particularly mind-blowing skill wise since.

Instantly knowing where every vampire's heart is so she can multi-stake them without even looking.

She has massive stat advantage on them. Only reason they might win is the gun.

Super-strength and a moderate durability edge is hardly a massive stat advantage. The Winchesters have gotten hit by a lot worse than what Buffy can dish out and asked (literally) for more. Less of a might and more of a 'Yeah - Buffy can't dodge bullets - especially from Dean or Sam

'Yes. "Sam Winchester". He is unable to even move his body. He's not doing anything at all.

Seems to move just fine here:

OP doesn't even mention gadriel. Which 'pesky' rule allows to characters not mentioned in the OP to fight? Go on.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/battle-forum-rules-2-0-compulsory-reading-1505000/#0

Be Specific About Fights

I think this is probably the most important rule, and when it’s followed, many other problems go away. When starting a battle you need to be specific about how everything is going to go down....

When these things are left out it’s generally assumed that characters are fighting to the best of their ability but still within the limits of their personality, using their standard gear, have no prep time, and are their current mainstream versions. Their starting distance is close and the setting is most often a city. Without any specifications to a battle, those are what we go by. It’s always best to give as much information about the fight in the first post.

Feel free to explain how this doesn't apply here sensibly - rather than desperately trying to avoid the angel stomp.

#43 Edited by nando1313 (102 posts) - - Show Bio

sam on demon blood stomps dean waits in the impala

#44 Posted by theONEtaichou (1564 posts) - - Show Bio

Bias... sickening.

Buffy curbstomps, I don't buy that buy that gun argument nod to the Winchesters. There is no PIS here, they die.

good day

#45 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (20261 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke:

Re-watch season one Buffy in all it's glory and tell me that with a straight face. It takes seasons for Buffy to hit a point where she actually looks like she knows how to fight, but even then it isn't particularly mind-blowing skill wise since.

Instantly knowing where every vampire's heart is so she can multi-stake them without even looking.

Like her attack on angel from air in the very first episode? or casually hitting the witch across the room in third?

And it's not buffy from season 1. It's buffy from the whole show.

Super-strength and a moderate durability edge is hardly a massive stat advantage. The Winchesters have gotten hit by a lot worse than what Buffy can dish out and asked (literally) for more. Less of a might and more of a 'Yeah - Buffy can't dodge bullets - especially from Dean or Sam

Super-strength, large durability age (Sam was badly hurt after his fight with jake. Buffy took a solid beating from lagos and was perfectly fine.), skill edge, and speed edge.

@isaac_clarke said:

Seems to move just fine here:

OP doesn't even mention gadriel. Which 'pesky' rule allows to characters not mentioned in the OP to fight? Go on.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/battle-forum-rules-2-0-compulsory-reading-1505000/#0

Be Specific About Fights

I think this is probably the most important rule, and when it’s followed, many other problems go away. When starting a battle you need to be specific about how everything is going to go down....

When these things are left out it’s generally assumed that characters are fighting to the best of their ability but still within the limits of their personality, using their standard gear, have no prep time, and are their current mainstream versions. Their starting distance is close and the setting is most often a city. Without any specifications to a battle, those are what we go by. It’s always best to give as much information about the fight in the first post.

Feel free to explain how this doesn't apply here sensibly - rather than desperately trying to avoid the angel stomp.

Sam isn't even moving his body. Gadriel is. Watch the video you're posting. 3:15

"But sam's okay?"

"He was knocked unconscious"

Gadriel is not mentioned in the OP. Meaning he isn't allowed to fight.

Current mainstream sam: Unable to move his own body.

#46 Edited by isaac_clarke (5479 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1 said:

Like her attack on angel from air in the very first episode? or casually hitting the witch across the room in third?

Are these supposed to be examples of skill?

And it's not buffy from season 1. It's buffy from the whole show.

Point was - Buffy doesn't actually show herself to be a competent fighter till a couple of seasons go by - and most of that consists of magically knowing where enemies hearts are.

Super-strength, large durability age (Sam was badly hurt after his fight with jake. Buffy took a solid beating from lagos and was perfectly fine.), skill edge, and speed edge.

Yeah. Based off one fight where Sam's opponent was sending him flying in single hits / seemingly dislocating (or breaking) his arm in a punch after being remarked as lifting jeeps off people or benching 800lbs without issue. That by no-means is a low-showing:

Especially since Sam knocks him out regardless. This before Sam and Dean became ridiculous meat-tanks that regularly fought mobs of demons off or have their solo adventures of monster-sweeping. I have no issue giving Buffy an edge on blunt-force durability - because she has the showings to prove it - but even then it isn't by leaps and bounds at all.

Lagos needs to stop being your to-go showing for all things durability for Buffy. If she was magically that much better than Faith physically their fights wouldn't be anywhere near as close (or even at times favoring Faith).

This speed advantage either doesn't exist or is so marginal it wouldn't matter. Sam and Dean could still physically tag Buffy. That's without gunning her down or Angel-Stomping her through Sam.

Sam isn't even moving his body. Gadriel is. Watch the video you're posting. 3:15

"But sam's okay?"

"He was knocked unconscious"

That flew right over your head.

Gadriel is not mentioned in the OP. Meaning he isn't allowed to fight.

I like how the team Buffy likes to ignore the battle-forum rules in favor of saying 'Buffy wins!' - only mentioning she might lost because of the guns, but still magically takes the majority regardless.

Current mainstream sam: Unable to move his own body.

Again - not how Angel possession works, as we've seen Sam could reign control from Lucifer back in Season five. The issue here is Sam's simply not aware of the possession as the Angel has asserted full control over his vessel.

Buffy loses to Angel-Stomp. That or gets gun-down by the Winchestors. All while nay-sayers pretend the battle-forum rules don't apply to this thread.

#47 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (20261 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke:

Are these supposed to be examples of skill?

Not entirely sure myself tbh. Because we can't say how much of that was from enhanced stats, and how much from skills. Though it's something winchesters can't replicate.

Point was - Buffy doesn't actually show herself to be a competent fighter till a couple of seasons go by - and most of that consists of magically knowing where enemies hearts are.

What exactly is your definition of 'competent fighter'?

Yeah. Based off one fight where Sam's opponent was sending him flying in single hits / seemingly dislocating (or breaking) his arm in a punch after being remarked as lifting jeeps off people or benching 800lbs without issue. That by no-means is a low-showing:

Yeah. Based off one fight sam seriously gets in h2h with someone with enhanced strength, or strong enough to send people flying with a hit.

I have no issue giving Buffy an edge on blunt-force durability - because she has the showings to prove it - but even then it isn't by leaps and bounds at all.

Good. Not by leaps and bounds, she isn't superman. But enough to be a major factor h2h.

Lagos needs to stop being your to-go showing for all things durability for Buffy. If she was magically that much better than Faith physically their fights wouldn't be anywhere near as close (or even at times favoring Faith).

Lagos is my go-to showing because of two reasons:

First, He can punch people across notable distance like jake, and like jake kicks through wooden fence, he punches off a block of concrete. Regardless, buffy took several blows from him, while sam was clearly badly hurt from jake's. I'm comparing their durability, not faith's.

And second, I'm still in early seasons of buffy, so haven't caught up with the later episodes, in which the show apparently gets stronger, as @cadencev2: tells me. What I've watched from the next season does seem better, but I can't pinpoint better showings right now.

This speed advantage either doesn't exist or is so marginal it wouldn't matter. Sam and Dean could still physically tag Buffy. That's without gunning her down or Angel-Stomping her through Sam.

Reasonable. What gives her the edge in h2h is large gap in strength and durability.

I'm pretty sure she was shot at before in early seasons, too. I'll try and find it.

---------

That flew right over your head.

Why not actually watch the video you post? Gadriel clearly makes the distinction. Sam: Knocked out. Fighting: Gadriel.

I like how the team Buffy likes to ignore the battle-forum rules in favor of saying 'Buffy wins!' - only mentioning she might lost because of the guns, but still magically takes the majority regardless.

Ignore the battle forum rules? Which one?

Current, mainstream version of sam is unable to move his body. An angel is moving it, but he's not involved in the fight. No reason to bring in characters which are not mentioned.

Again - not how Angel possession works, as we've seen Sam could reign control from Lucifer back in Season five. The issue here is Sam's simply not aware of the possession as the Angel has asserted full control over his vessel.

The said angel disagrees with you, and he knows more than you do.

Overall point is, unless you're saying sam snatches control back, he's not fighting. Which he cannot.

"Angel" has asserted control over his vessel. Is the angel in the OP? No. Game over.

#48 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke:

Are these supposed to be examples of skill?

Not entirely sure myself tbh. Because we can't say how much of that was from enhanced stats, and how much from skills. Though it's something winchesters can't replicate.

Point was - Buffy doesn't actually show herself to be a competent fighter till a couple of seasons go by - and most of that consists of magically knowing where enemies hearts are.

What exactly is your definition of 'competent fighter'?

I thought I should pipe in here.

Buffy has the combat experience and past memories of 100s of past Slayers. Season 5 Angel comments on this (Sry, i have not made these into scans yet) as a young child who was locked up in a asylum all her life out skilled Spike in a fight. Spike realize too late in the fight this psychotic girl was not a psycho, but a Slayer who was living the memories of the past Slayers as all Slayers do. Angel figures this out early on himself, and then the whole shebang is stated as fact later by Whats his name from Buffy when explaining how Slayers work. Need to get those scans.

Also Comics of Buffy Origin explain this as well.

Inert Skill

Slayers have Innate fighting skill when they are born. They also share the past lives of previous Slayers allowing them a level of natural skill that makes a untrain 16 year old into a master fighter in a few short years.

1-2) Show the past lives she relieves when sleeping.

3-5) The Watcher finds her and brings her out to a cemetery knowing 2 Vampires will rise that night. The Watcher is overpowered by the 2 Vamps and it was up to the untrain Buffy to kill the Vampires, even though she was never taught a wooden stake through the heart, or any fighting skill to execute it. She does both with her innate skill of past lives.

6) Then the Watcher test her one more time with a surprise attack which she caught with ease just to prove a point of her being the chosen one.

Buffy also is so skilled, she can fight blind.

Blind Fighting

Buffy has train through out the TV show to fight both blind and in very low light areas.

Buffy is very skilled fighter, top skill fighter of her universe honestly.

#49 Posted by isaac_clarke (5479 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1 said:

Not entirely sure myself tbh. Because we can't say how much of that was from enhanced stats, and how much from skills. Though it's something winchesters can't replicate.

I'd say entirely enhanced stats and an iteration of Angel that hadn't had a couple season / his own TV series to be the established bad-arse he was.

What exactly is your definition of 'competent fighter'?

Not being a generic brawler, actually applying some measure of hand to hand ability to fight. Basically the opposite of season one Buffy.

Good. Not by leaps and bounds, she isn't superman. But enough to be a major factor h2h.

If this fight was plain hand to hand I'd completely agree with that sentiment.

Lagos is my go-to showing because of two reasons:

First, He can punch people across notable distance like jake, and like jake kicks through wooden fence, he punches off a block of concrete. Regardless, buffy took several blows from him, while sam was clearly badly hurt from jake's. I'm comparing their durability, not faith's.

Outside the angel-beatings Dean's endured - I'd say the only time I remember the Winchestors as 'badly hurt' consisted of Alastair's initial encounter - who kicked them so hard to the curb they rather jump out a window into the pavement then try to get past him.

And second, I'm still in early seasons of buffy, so haven't caught up with the later episodes, in which the show apparently gets stronger, as @cadencev2: tells me. What I've watched from the next season does seem better, but I can't pinpoint better showings right now.

If you aren't into Buffy by Season 2 it probably isn't the show for you to be honest. If you're talking just better showings - yeah everyone's showings get significantly better - well everyone but generic vampires that exist soulely to die at the scooby-gang's hands.

I'm pretty sure she was shot at before in early seasons, too. I'll try and find it.

What comes to mind is the tail end of season 2 - Kendra's death - Buffy running from police officers. Outside that I can't think of anything memorable.

Why not actually watch the video you post? Gadriel clearly makes the distinction. Sam: Knocked out. Fighting: Gadriel.

I saw it live and before posting it. The whole point was to poke fun at this argument where angel possession magically makes Sam a non-factor / immobile statue in this fight - despite very much soloing Buffy with absolute ease.

Ignore the battle forum rules? Which one?

Not going to answer the same question twice.

Current, mainstream version of sam is unable to move his body. An angel is moving it, but he's not involved in the fight. No reason to bring in characters which are not mentioned.

Again with this nonsense of not being able to move his body. Current Gadriel is current Sam Winchester and vice-versa. The only distinction is whose driving the ship - its like saying Buffy is depowered because the thread doesn't specifically say she has the demon-mojo-magic that makes her slayer mentioned in the OP.

The said angel disagrees with you, and he knows more than you do.

Find a clip that proves that.

Overall point is, unless you're saying sam snatches control back, he's not fighting. Which he cannot.

"Angel" has asserted control over his vessel. Is the angel in the OP? No. Game over.

Not how the battle forums work.

@cadencev2 said:

I thought I should pipe in here. Buffy has the combat experience and past memories of 100s of past Slayers.

Later plot-point in comics, not so much the actual show. Otherwise Buffy would have been a lot more beastly than she was from the get-go without having to be tutored or trained by anyone.

Season 5 Angel comments on this (Sry, i have not made these into scans yet) as a young child who was locked up in a asylum all her life out skilled Spike in a fight. Spike realize too late in the fight this psychotic girl was not a psycho, but a Slayer who was living the memories of the past Slayers as all Slayers do. Angel figures this out early on himself, and then the whole shebang is stated as fact later by Whats his name from Buffy when explaining how Slayers work. Need to get those scans.

Also Comics of Buffy Origin explain this as well.

How many slayers has Spike killed? It's fairly evident that all Slayers where not remotely created equal (especially in that finale in Buffy) - despite the magic transferrance of random memories / combat knowledge really aren't that particularly that amazing.

Slayers have Innate fighting skill when they are born. They also share the past lives of previous Slayers allowing them a level of natural skill that makes a untrain 16 year old into a master fighter in a few short years.

1-2) Show the past lives she relieves when sleeping.

3-5) The Watcher finds her and brings her out to a cemetery knowing 2 Vampires will rise that night. The Watcher is overpowered by the 2 Vamps and it was up to the untrain Buffy to kill the Vampires, even though she was never taught a wooden stake through the heart, or any fighting skill to execute it. She does both with her innate skill of past lives.

6) Then the Watcher test her one more time with a surprise attack which she caught with ease just to prove a point of her being the chosen one.

Buffy also is so skilled, she can fight blind.

As much as I enjoy scans relating to the film / flash backs featuring a stalky Angel - this isn't exactly straight out the show - where this depiction isn't quite as impressive as I recall.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/123441/3425963-buffy+ability+blind+fighting.png

Buffy has train through out the TV show to fight both blind and in very low light areas.

Which again ties into her 'cosmic' awareness of knowing where / what everything is around her without looking - namely how she pokes holes in the hearts of Vampires she can't even see.

Buffy is very skilled fighter, top skill fighter of her universe honestly.

I get that - though that isn't saying much given her universe has maybe three other notable fighters - who aren't particular that good.

#50 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke:

Later plot-point in comics, not so much the actual show. Otherwise Buffy would have been a lot more beastly than she was from the get-go without having to be tutored or trained by anyone.

Buffy was very Beefy from the get go. Your blaming poor budget on actual feats when later feats completely retcon or simply overshadow the earlier feats by a huge margin. In Early Buffy angel needed Grapple Hook Guns to scale a wall. In season 3+ of his show, he was jumping over walls in a single jump, or climbing walls like Spider Man.

Your whole argument is based on a lower budget of early shows, then ignoring the changes made in later shows. The curret canon changes.

Keep that in mind.

How many slayers has Spike killed? It's fairly evident that all Slayers where not remotely created equal (especially in that finale in Buffy) - despite the magic transferrance ofrandom memories / combat knowledge really aren't that particularly that amazing.

This is true, not every Slayer is the same. However as we also seen with Faith skill, Buffy Skill, Kendra skill, and now this Psycho Slayer skill is that a young girl of 16 can have all the skills of a martial arts master without ever attending a school. They have all the experience of battle without ever fighting in one.

The fact is, they are as well train as say Punisher skill has shown without training at all. That Inert skill. Add training designed for Slayers by the Watchers, and you have top tier fighters on par with the like of Green Arrow, Hawkeye (as Rhonin), or Bucky. They are not top tier fighters of say Iron Fist or Shang Chi, but they are in showings of comics and at times the show extremely top tier street Levelers in skill.

In the end skill is all in the eye of the beholder. Many fans of Marvel or DC think they are skilless because they never fought anyone in Marvel or DC! Hypocritical IMO but whateves. The drawings and moves they do are the same quality of any Marvel/DC Movie or Comic. Period.

As much as I enjoy scans relating to the film / flash backs featuring a stalky Angel - this isn't exactly straight out the show - where this depiction isn't quite as impressive as I recall.

This does not matter. it is 100% Canon as per Joss Whedon. He stated all the comics made on his characters are Canon. He personally writes and oversees the comics written of his characters. He writes to this day the Faith and Agnel as well Buffy Season 9 Comics. The Buffy Origins is his work.

Which again ties into her 'cosmic' awareness of knowing where / what everything is around her without looking - namely how she pokes holes in the hearts of Vampires she can't even see.

What Cosmic awareness? I watch the show and read the comics. NEVER ONCE have I seen or heard mention Cosmic Awareness. Where are you getting this info?

I get that - though that isn't saying much given her universe has maybe three other notable fighters - who aren't particular that good.

That is YOUR opinion. When a comic geek of 14 years old dies, and comes back a Vampire, he suddenly becomes a super fighter of basic martial arts. That is the world Buffy lives in. A world filled with Demons, Vampires, and more with inert or trained skill. Just because your not impressed means nothing solid when I am never impressed with Wolverine Skill Feats in comics. Its all opinion now.

Also there is a host of notable fighters. Buffy, Angel, Spike, Kendra, Faith, Alexia, Gunn, Illyria, Conner (Sometimes), Pike, Gruu, and many more.