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#1 Posted by Pistolwhip1 (842 posts) - - Show Bio

 
 
 
The Winchester Brothers are sent in to take on Gozer in place of the Ghostbusters.
 
•Winner by death.
•Start off thirty feet away.
#2 Posted by rd2race (289 posts) - - Show Bio

Haha I love this fight. If Sam has his demon powers the brothers may have a chance however Gozer would turn into the first thing they thought of (either their dad or a hot chick) either way they have trouble killing him. Im gonna say Gozer wrecks in a random encounter but the brothers could win with prep time. The only reason the ghostbusters won in a random encounter is because they had Bill Murray force.

Bill Murray force >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Toon Force hahaha

As Tallahasee would say "Bill F@#$ING MURRAY" haha

#3 Posted by ClarkJosephKent1938DC (682 posts) - - Show Bio

Probably Gozer

#4 Posted by whydama (1093 posts) - - Show Bio

Winchesters win by PIS

#5 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

Winchesters lose without PIS the Ghostbusters would have died before Gozer even became Stay Puft. There is no prep, Sam and Dean go down, even with Sams demons powers, that only hurts demons, Gozer is a god.

#6 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans:

Or...maybe this happens!

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#7 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

@LordOfAllHumans:

Or...maybe this happens!

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Lol that was funny

#8 Posted by ComocYahweh (661 posts) - - Show Bio

Dean says one word and Castiel flies down from heaven to smite Gozer

#9 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@ComocYahweh said:

Dean says one word and Castiel flies down from heaven to smite Gozer

Or stays hidden because there may be Leviathan looking for him.

#10 Posted by ComocYahweh (661 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

Dean says one word and Castiel flies down from heaven to smite Gozer

Or stays hidden because there may be Leviathan looking for him.

Quick smite then flies back into hiding.

#11 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

Dean says one word and Castiel flies down from heaven to smite Gozer

Or stays hidden because there may be Leviathan looking for him.

Quick smite then flies back into hiding.

they can't call him in anyway and IMO he doesn't strike me as being powerful enough to smite Gozer without extra souls feeding him. He has only successfully done this to monsters and low level demons, he couldn't even beat Alastair while plugged into Heaven. Alastair has not shown anything to suggest he is as powerful as Gozer.

#12 Posted by ComocYahweh (661 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

Dean says one word and Castiel flies down from heaven to smite Gozer

Or stays hidden because there may be Leviathan looking for him.

Quick smite then flies back into hiding.

they can't call him in anyway and IMO he doesn't strike me as being powerful enough to smite Gozer without extra souls feeding him. He has only successfully done this to monsters and low level demons, he couldn't even beat Alastair while plugged into Heaven. Alastair has not shown anything to suggest he is as powerful as Gozer.

Just any weak angel can own Gozer and Castiel is a very powerful normal low tier angel.

#13 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

Dean says one word and Castiel flies down from heaven to smite Gozer

Or stays hidden because there may be Leviathan looking for him.

Quick smite then flies back into hiding.

they can't call him in anyway and IMO he doesn't strike me as being powerful enough to smite Gozer without extra souls feeding him. He has only successfully done this to monsters and low level demons, he couldn't even beat Alastair while plugged into Heaven. Alastair has not shown anything to suggest he is as powerful as Gozer.

Just any weak angel can own Gozer and Castiel is a very powerful normal low tier angel.

what is this based on? Castiel was beaten by Uriel, an angel that was placed below him in rank. None of which matter because the boys are alone in this battle and die quickly.

#14 Posted by ComocYahweh (661 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

Dean says one word and Castiel flies down from heaven to smite Gozer

Or stays hidden because there may be Leviathan looking for him.

Quick smite then flies back into hiding.

they can't call him in anyway and IMO he doesn't strike me as being powerful enough to smite Gozer without extra souls feeding him. He has only successfully done this to monsters and low level demons, he couldn't even beat Alastair while plugged into Heaven. Alastair has not shown anything to suggest he is as powerful as Gozer.

Just any weak angel can own Gozer and Castiel is a very powerful normal low tier angel.

what is this based on? Castiel was beaten by Uriel, an angel that was placed below him in rank. None of which matter because the boys are alone in this battle and die quickly.

He became more powerful after being ressurected. Also what weapons do the winchesters have? If they have the colt then they should win pretty easy. It also depends on what Gozer is classified as compared to Supernatural verse, is he a ghost or a God or what?

#15 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

Winchesters lose without PIS the Ghostbusters would have died before Gozer even became Stay Puft. There is no prep, Sam and Dean go down, even with Sams demons powers, that only hurts demons, Gozer is a god.

In all honesty, not much of one. And these boys regularly kill gods to boot (albeit with prep). After the first defeat the God was stuck summoning the Stay Puff, that following defeat prompted the actual villain to reduce Gozer to nothing more than a skull sporting a 80's hair cut.

The main issue with Gozer is the lack of her / him doing anything on his own - outside creating a destroyer of the mortal's choosing.

I could see the Winchesters handle a Gozer sporting their dad's face - that or get their rears kicked and come back later with prep to banish Gozer or something. The usual.

@ComocYahweh said:

He became more powerful after being ressurected. Also what weapons do the winchesters have? If they have the colt then they should win pretty easy. It also depends on what Gozer is classified as compared to Supernatural verse, is he a ghost or a God or what?

Bar that time they went back to the wild west, the Colt's been gone for 3 seasons. Good chance Lucifer destroyed it.

Gozer would fit the ball of a Pagan God pretty well, some nifty abilities but overall likely not too unmanageable.

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

Dean says one word and Castiel flies down from heaven to smite Gozer

Or stays hidden because there may be Leviathan looking for him.

Quick smite then flies back into hiding.

they can't call him in anyway and IMO he doesn't strike me as being powerful enough to smite Gozer without extra souls feeding him. He has only successfully done this to monsters and low level demons, he couldn't even beat Alastair while plugged into Heaven. Alastair has not shown anything to suggest he is as powerful as Gozer.

According to the last episode he's a Seraph, that should put him a notch right below the lower tier archangels like Raphael. He doesn't need to have the number of souls he was sporting in season 6 or at the end of it when he become God. More or less this "I have spent the last year a wavelength of multidimensional celestial intent.." sounds pretty legit in terms of how he is now at his current levels. He probably used what power those souls provided up when he booted Raphael's rear out of heaven in that show of dominance. Not to mention his speed showings where he's searching an entire city for single individuals (to an extent the man has shown super speed or hell most angels have, except when they fight Leviathan), much better telepathy / telekinesis feats on Gozer - even better psyrokinesis, temporal control (stopping time to prevent Sam / Dean from being crushed, sending people through time via a touch or what have you. He's smited rooms of monsters with just a blinding light, Cas quite literally has yet to really show how much destructive potential he has.

Hell if Gozer goes stay puff, given considering Cas' true form is the size of the Chrysler Building (1,050 feet tall) - I'd still put money on the Seraph.

You're talking about Season Four Castiel - who is significantly weaker than his current 'unplugged' form from heaven. He got a rather visible bump in season 5 when he was casually bringing Bobby back from the dead (who at that point was in hell given his contract) with a touch and retrieved Sam's body from the cage, barreling through hell apparently to do so (it required multiple angels to get Dean out and the pit is a hell of a lot more well guarded / deeper in hell). Even season 4 angels like Uriel were confident enough in their ability to smite a city under his boot.

Although why he couldn't smite Alastair with his usual glowing touch was odd - even for his season four counter part. I'd imagine, given Heaven was fully aware of what was happening and outright manipulating events - one of the archangels unplugged him / prevented him from frying Alastair (like what Raphael did for Crowler at the end of season 6). Outside that, season 6 Cas could easily smite the King of Hell - not just a low level demon.

#16 Posted by Bo88gdan (4397 posts) - - Show Bio

Winchesters FTW

#17 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

Dean says one word and Castiel flies down from heaven to smite Gozer

Or stays hidden because there may be Leviathan looking for him.

Quick smite then flies back into hiding.

they can't call him in anyway and IMO he doesn't strike me as being powerful enough to smite Gozer without extra souls feeding him. He has only successfully done this to monsters and low level demons, he couldn't even beat Alastair while plugged into Heaven. Alastair has not shown anything to suggest he is as powerful as Gozer.

Just any weak angel can own Gozer and Castiel is a very powerful normal low tier angel.

what is this based on? Castiel was beaten by Uriel, an angel that was placed below him in rank. None of which matter because the boys are alone in this battle and die quickly.

He became more powerful after being ressurected. Also what weapons do the winchesters have? If they have the colt then they should win pretty easy. It also depends on what Gozer is classified as compared to Supernatural verse, is he a ghost or a God or what?

That was never proven, that is just what people thought because of a statement Dean made, he came back better than before because before he was nearly human before he was blown up. He also said he was gonna get Heaven in order which made fans speculate he was archangel level, which we know not to be true as he posed no real threat to an archangel without gaining power beyond his station. Gozer, in his verse he is a god, it doesn't matter what they would classify him as in Supernatural, why would their classification usurp the one from his reality just because he is fight them now?

@isaac_clarke: I'm talking about Castiel period. He showed no signs of being any more powerful than he was before he was unplugged outside of absorbing new souls. That statement about being a wavelength does not prove that is not what all angels are. Are you saying it's exclusive to him because he is the only angel to say it in a show where he is the only one that even feels the need to explain things to humans? Nor does it suggest he had some greater level of power. All Sam , Dean and Bobby had to do to not be negatively affected by his flash was close their eyes.

Why would he go Stay puft in this battle when it is his humanoid form being used in this battle that Castiel can't just swoop into anyway?

When he was trying to fight Alastrair it was during the beginning when Heaven had sent them specifically to help Dean stop the seals, the revelation that they wanted to the end to come was much later and was not always the plan. Zachs appearances before he was demoted and reinstated all have him telling Dean that the Apocalypse is to be stopped, then Heaven decides after all the seals except Lilith are broken that they want it to happen.

Crowley is still a low level demon compared to Alastair and Lilith his title is just a title, he doesn't have more powers only more authority because now he owns all souls in Hell, their power is based on age and eye color not titles. Meg would not have been a problem if he was so powerful, and he was afraid of her when he thought she was going to torture him because she learned directly from Alastair. He is still hurt by Holy water even as the King of Hell something that didn't work on even Yellow Eyes. Yellow Eyes was believed to be the most powerful because of his eyes and role but turns out Lilith was the top dog because she not only held rank but more power, due to being the first, demons are nothing but twisted ghost and it's pretty common knowledge that spirits get stronger the longer they are around and able to practice. The true form of angels period is destructive to the mortal plane it's not exclusive to Uriel or Castiel. Anna, a fallen angel was more powerful than Cas as her power did vaporize Alastairs meatsuit while Cas was powerless against him.

Not that any of this matters the OP does not give them the option to call in Cas, so they die!

#18 Posted by Bane_of_sith (2796 posts) - - Show Bio

Gozer is a Sumerian demonic god,,he beats them in what ever form they choose,,they do not possess a way to destroy him and no outside help is allowed

#19 Posted by UltimateHero0406 (2169 posts) - - Show Bio

Sam and Dean

#20 Posted by The_Roman (3297 posts) - - Show Bio

Penance Colt.

#21 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

Why are people choosing the Winchesters? They have no prep, no access to special artifacts and no angels. The only weapon that became standard for them was Rubys knife. That knife doesn't even work on all demons and has never been shown to work on anything above low level demons of their universe, which means it's special properties along with those of the Colt (which is not standard) may not even work on anything that is not created by their universes God. These boys are gonna die quick and easy. The OP also said they take the place of the Ghostbusters. They were only able to banish Gozer (not kill it) by crossing the streams and closing the portal. How are Sam and Dean accomplishing this?

#22 Posted by Matchstick (565 posts) - - Show Bio

Winchesters always need prep to take out powerful opponents. Without it they lose, and badly.

#23 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

That was never proven, that is just what people thought because of a statement Dean made, he came back better than before because before he was nearly human before he was blown up. He also said he was gonna get Heaven in order which made fans speculate he was archangel level, which we know not to be true as he posed no real threat to an archangel without gaining power beyond his station. Gozer, in his verse he is a god, it doesn't matter what they would classify him as in Supernatural, why would their classification usurp the one from his reality just because he is fight them now?

@isaac_clarke: I'm talking about Castiel period. He showed no signs of being any more powerful than he was before he was unplugged outside of absorbing new souls. That statement about being a wavelength does not prove that is not what all angels are. Are you saying it's exclusive to him because he is the only angel to say it in a show where he is the only one that even feels the need to explain things to humans? Nor does it suggest he had some greater level of power. All Sam , Dean and Bobby had to do to not be negatively affected by his flash was close their eyes.

Except you know: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORjKXAbp5ko&feature=related

  • Dean: "Cas are you God?"
  • Castiel: "That's a nice compliment, but no... but I do believe he brought me back." *Castiel turns and proceeds to walk towards Bobby*
  • Castiel: "New and Improved."

He then proceeds to casually resurrect Bobby - who given his contract would be burning in hell. The only other time we've seen an angel raise someone from the pit (in this case the same angel right here) the process took multiple angels and one of them personally air-lifting Dean out of there. This was a walk in the park.

  • Dean: "What are you going to do now?"
  • Castiel: "Return to Heave I suppose."
  • Dean: "Heaven?"
  • Castiel: "With Michael in the cage I'm sure it's total anarchy up there."
  • Dean: "So what? You're the new sheriff in town?"
  • Castiel: "Heh, I like that yeah. I suppose I am."

As far as we know he wasn't even connected to heaven yet - but he acknowledges an improvement in himself and this new authority he is clearly sporting. The fact he immediately goes to hell after and goes into Lucifer's cage grabbing what he could of Sam. Something his previous iteration from Season 4 would have not been capable of. As he describes it, he was arrogant, confident in his ability and it being an act of hubris. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-2TkdMqbnA&feature=related

Later in the same episode Raphael chose to simply display his dominance, rather than obliterate Cas with ease as he did at the end of season 4 suggests Cas could at the very least take the hit this time around. The fact he's trying to poke Castiel with a blade later in the season, souls or not, infers Cas is sporting a bit more power than he previously had.

Then there is season 8 where Castiel finally establishes himself as a Seraphim while in purgatory - something he wasn't before his death in season 5 - suggest there was indeed a change in his angelic status post resurrection - a big shift in power. Namely why he can smite multiple demons casually while being a fallen angel and fry the King of Hell without breaking a sweat if he liked.

Why would he go Stay puft in this battle when it is his humanoid form being used in this battle that Castiel can't just swoop into anyway?

It would be a potential scenario given Gozer couldn't do anything but go Stay Puff in the closest thing to a sequel we're ever going to get to Ghost Busters 2. Otherwise the avatar he is going to be related to something Dean or Sam think up (which given how much a movie buff Dean is, might be Stay Puff). If he wasn't in Purgatory I'd say that would be the very Cas thing to do if he saw a giant marshmellow man trying to crush his humans.

When he was trying to fight Alastrair it was during the beginning when Heaven had sent them specifically to help Dean stop the seals, the revelation that they wanted to the end to come was much later and was not always the plan. Zachs appearances before he was demoted and reinstated all have him telling Dean that the Apocalypse is to be stopped, then Heaven decides after all the seals except Lilith are broken that they want it to happen.

Fate works for Heaven in Supernatural, the Archangels made a number of statements where they mention they knew exactly what was going to go down right from the get-go (bar Dean resisting that final chance). Namely why Zachariah points out at the end of season 4 - more or less along the lines "you think we'd let 66 seals break on our watch without us wanting them to?" No matter how you slice it the Angels were following a script, sending the grunts out to fight to avoid rebellion (something that is also mentioned).

Quite literally - there is no way the Demons would have been able to break those seals if Heaven did not want them to - time traveling super powerful omniscient angels.

Crowley is still a low level demon compared to Alastair and Lilith his title is just a title, he doesn't have more powers only more authority because now he owns all souls in Hell, their power is based on age and eye color not titles. Meg would not have been a problem if he was so powerful, and he was afraid of her when he thought she was going to torture him because she learned directly from Alastair. He is still hurt by Holy water even as the King of Hell something that didn't work on even Yellow Eyes. Yellow Eyes was believed to be the most powerful because of his eyes and role but turns out Lilith was the top dog because she not only held rank but more power, due to being the first, demons are nothing but twisted ghost and it's pretty common knowledge that spirits get stronger the longer they are around and able to practice. The true form of angels period is destructive to the mortal plane it's not exclusive to Uriel or Castiel. Anna, a fallen angel was more powerful than Cas as her power did vaporize Alastairs meatsuit while Cas was powerless against him.

Crowley isn't a standard King of the Cross Roads - minus those red eyes - he's a giant floating gas of red smoke that has access to a large supply of souls. The entire point of the purgatory arc was so he could also get said souls to amp his powers. To establish himself without question as King of Hell. The holy water portion didn't make sense, admittedly, but bad writing happens sometimes. Plus holy water hurt Alister too.

Not that any of this matters the OP does not give them the option to call in Cas, so they die!

Which is fair, but Cas would still smoke Gozer.

#24 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

That was never proven, that is just what people thought because of a statement Dean made, he came back better than before because before he was nearly human before he was blown up. He also said he was gonna get Heaven in order which made fans speculate he was archangel level, which we know not to be true as he posed no real threat to an archangel without gaining power beyond his station. Gozer, in his verse he is a god, it doesn't matter what they would classify him as in Supernatural, why would their classification usurp the one from his reality just because he is fight them now?

@isaac_clarke: I'm talking about Castiel period. He showed no signs of being any more powerful than he was before he was unplugged outside of absorbing new souls. That statement about being a wavelength does not prove that is not what all angels are. Are you saying it's exclusive to him because he is the only angel to say it in a show where he is the only one that even feels the need to explain things to humans? Nor does it suggest he had some greater level of power. All Sam , Dean and Bobby had to do to not be negatively affected by his flash was close their eyes.

Except you know: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORjKXAbp5ko&feature=related

  • Dean: "Cas are you God?"
  • Castiel: "That's a nice compliment, but no... but I do believe he brought me back." *Castiel turns and proceeds to walk towards Bobby*
  • Castiel: "New and Improved."

He then proceeds to casually resurrect Bobby - who given his contract would be burning in hell. The only other time we've seen an angel raise someone from the pit (in this case the same angel right here) the process took multiple angels and one of them personally air-lifting Dean out of there. This was a walk in the park.

  • Dean: "What are you going to do now?"
  • Castiel: "Return to Heave I suppose."
  • Dean: "Heaven?"
  • Castiel: "With Michael in the cage I'm sure it's total anarchy up there."
  • Dean: "So what? You're the new sheriff in town?"
  • Castiel: "Heh, I like that yeah. I suppose I am."

As far as we know he wasn't even connected to heaven yet - but he acknowledges an improvement in himself and this new authority he is clearly sporting. The fact he immediately goes to hell after and goes into Lucifer's cage grabbing what he could of Sam. Something his previous iteration from Season 4 would have not been capable of. As he describes it, he was arrogant, confident in his ability and it being an act of hubris. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-2TkdMqbnA&feature=related

Later in the same episode Raphael chose to simply display his dominance, rather than obliterate Cas with ease as he did at the end of season 4 suggests Cas could at the very least take the hit this time around. The fact he's trying to poke Castiel with a blade later in the season, souls or not, infers Cas is sporting a bit more power than he previously had.

Then there is season 8 where Castiel finally establishes himself as a Seraphim while in purgatory - something he wasn't before his death in season 5 - suggest there was indeed a change in his angelic status post resurrection - a big shift in power. Namely why he can smite multiple demons casually while being a fallen angel and fry the King of Hell without breaking a sweat if he liked.

Why would he go Stay puft in this battle when it is his humanoid form being used in this battle that Castiel can't just swoop into anyway?

It would be a potential scenario given Gozer couldn't do anything but go Stay Puff in the closest thing to a sequel we're ever going to get to Ghost Busters 2. Otherwise the avatar he is going to be related to something Dean or Sam think up (which given how much a movie buff Dean is, might be Stay Puff). If he wasn't in Purgatory I'd say that would be the very Cas thing to do if he saw a giant marshmellow man trying to crush his humans.

When he was trying to fight Alastrair it was during the beginning when Heaven had sent them specifically to help Dean stop the seals, the revelation that they wanted to the end to come was much later and was not always the plan. Zachs appearances before he was demoted and reinstated all have him telling Dean that the Apocalypse is to be stopped, then Heaven decides after all the seals except Lilith are broken that they want it to happen.

Fate works for Heaven in Supernatural, the Archangels made a number of statements where they mention they knew exactly what was going to go down right from the get-go (bar Dean resisting that final chance). Namely why Zachariah points out at the end of season 4 - more or less along the lines "you think we'd let 66 seals break on our watch without us wanting them to?" No matter how you slice it the Angels were following a script, sending the grunts out to fight to avoid rebellion (something that is also mentioned).

Quite literally - there is no way the Demons would have been able to break those seals if Heaven did not want them to - time traveling super powerful omniscient angels.

Crowley is still a low level demon compared to Alastair and Lilith his title is just a title, he doesn't have more powers only more authority because now he owns all souls in Hell, their power is based on age and eye color not titles. Meg would not have been a problem if he was so powerful, and he was afraid of her when he thought she was going to torture him because she learned directly from Alastair. He is still hurt by Holy water even as the King of Hell something that didn't work on even Yellow Eyes. Yellow Eyes was believed to be the most powerful because of his eyes and role but turns out Lilith was the top dog because she not only held rank but more power, due to being the first, demons are nothing but twisted ghost and it's pretty common knowledge that spirits get stronger the longer they are around and able to practice. The true form of angels period is destructive to the mortal plane it's not exclusive to Uriel or Castiel. Anna, a fallen angel was more powerful than Cas as her power did vaporize Alastairs meatsuit while Cas was powerless against him.

Crowley isn't a standard King of the Cross Roads - minus those red eyes - he's a giant floating gas of red smoke that has access to a large supply of souls. The entire point of the purgatory arc was so he could also get said souls to amp his powers. To establish himself without question as King of Hell. The holy water portion didn't make sense, admittedly, but bad writing happens sometimes. Plus holy water hurt Alister too.

Not that any of this matters the OP does not give them the option to call in Cas, so they die!

Which is fair, but Cas would still smoke Gozer.

How can we not infer that he was not plugged into Heaven when God was the one that brought him back though? He wasn't the same kind of fallen angel he was before, because there was no authority in Heaven to unplug him the second time. Zach was a seraph too but when demoted by Michael he just not all that tough. There was nothing to suggest other than his arrogance that Zach knew anything outside of what Michael told him as far as the plan. It could have been he could take Sam out of the cage for the same reason Dean could get out of Purgatory, bodies are not supposed to be there, hell is a place for souls. Lucifer was not physically torturing Sams body only his soul, so the body would not have mattered when it came to the cage. Even the fairies claimed they could get that soul out of the cage and scoffed at angelic powers.

In this scenario it's unlikely Gozer would take on the form of Stay Puft because they are not Ray and that image was snatched from his mind.

The same time traveling super powerful angels were not omniscient at all, as they did not know how the story would end, Gabriel implied that he traveled in time and saw the end result and he was wrong. Without an archangel Heaven couldn't even protect Kevin. Raphael had no idea what Castiel was up to until Crowley told him even though Cas came up with the whole unsink the Titantic plan which went unnoticed by everybody except Fate. Gabriel, Balthazar, Anna and the cambion all hid from Heaven, the first two did for centuries, even Dean and Sam were hidden from them with sigils so they are far from omniscient.

Yes Alastair was hurt by holy water but he was also trapped in a enochian version of the Devils trap and even vulnerable to salt which was supposed to not do much to the big leagues. The traps render them powerless, I'm betting the angelic one was a super charged version because outside of it he proved able to over power angels.

Him being red smoke makes no sense especially when Sam explained that demons are created by burning the humanity away until there was nothing but black smoke.

You do have valid points and I thinks it's a matter of how we see the scenes. Castiel never struck me as being anymore powerful than he was based on him and angels having next to no feats at first and most of what we know about what angels can do coming from what he saw him do, seemed pretty standard to me. He said he could bury Crowley because he was still an angel which is a very general statement IMO about the power of his species as a whole. This was fun....Winchesters die horribly lol.

#25 Posted by ComocYahweh (661 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@isaac_clarke said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

That was never proven, that is just what people thought because of a statement Dean made, he came back better than before because before he was nearly human before he was blown up. He also said he was gonna get Heaven in order which made fans speculate he was archangel level, which we know not to be true as he posed no real threat to an archangel without gaining power beyond his station. Gozer, in his verse he is a god, it doesn't matter what they would classify him as in Supernatural, why would their classification usurp the one from his reality just because he is fight them now?

@isaac_clarke: I'm talking about Castiel period. He showed no signs of being any more powerful than he was before he was unplugged outside of absorbing new souls. That statement about being a wavelength does not prove that is not what all angels are. Are you saying it's exclusive to him because he is the only angel to say it in a show where he is the only one that even feels the need to explain things to humans? Nor does it suggest he had some greater level of power. All Sam , Dean and Bobby had to do to not be negatively affected by his flash was close their eyes.

Except you know: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORjKXAbp5ko&feature=related

  • Dean: "Cas are you God?"
  • Castiel: "That's a nice compliment, but no... but I do believe he brought me back." *Castiel turns and proceeds to walk towards Bobby*
  • Castiel: "New and Improved."

He then proceeds to casually resurrect Bobby - who given his contract would be burning in hell. The only other time we've seen an angel raise someone from the pit (in this case the same angel right here) the process took multiple angels and one of them personally air-lifting Dean out of there. This was a walk in the park.

  • Dean: "What are you going to do now?"
  • Castiel: "Return to Heave I suppose."
  • Dean: "Heaven?"
  • Castiel: "With Michael in the cage I'm sure it's total anarchy up there."
  • Dean: "So what? You're the new sheriff in town?"
  • Castiel: "Heh, I like that yeah. I suppose I am."

As far as we know he wasn't even connected to heaven yet - but he acknowledges an improvement in himself and this new authority he is clearly sporting. The fact he immediately goes to hell after and goes into Lucifer's cage grabbing what he could of Sam. Something his previous iteration from Season 4 would have not been capable of. As he describes it, he was arrogant, confident in his ability and it being an act of hubris. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-2TkdMqbnA&feature=related

Later in the same episode Raphael chose to simply display his dominance, rather than obliterate Cas with ease as he did at the end of season 4 suggests Cas could at the very least take the hit this time around. The fact he's trying to poke Castiel with a blade later in the season, souls or not, infers Cas is sporting a bit more power than he previously had.

Then there is season 8 where Castiel finally establishes himself as a Seraphim while in purgatory - something he wasn't before his death in season 5 - suggest there was indeed a change in his angelic status post resurrection - a big shift in power. Namely why he can smite multiple demons casually while being a fallen angel and fry the King of Hell without breaking a sweat if he liked.

Why would he go Stay puft in this battle when it is his humanoid form being used in this battle that Castiel can't just swoop into anyway?

It would be a potential scenario given Gozer couldn't do anything but go Stay Puff in the closest thing to a sequel we're ever going to get to Ghost Busters 2. Otherwise the avatar he is going to be related to something Dean or Sam think up (which given how much a movie buff Dean is, might be Stay Puff). If he wasn't in Purgatory I'd say that would be the very Cas thing to do if he saw a giant marshmellow man trying to crush his humans.

When he was trying to fight Alastrair it was during the beginning when Heaven had sent them specifically to help Dean stop the seals, the revelation that they wanted to the end to come was much later and was not always the plan. Zachs appearances before he was demoted and reinstated all have him telling Dean that the Apocalypse is to be stopped, then Heaven decides after all the seals except Lilith are broken that they want it to happen.

Fate works for Heaven in Supernatural, the Archangels made a number of statements where they mention they knew exactly what was going to go down right from the get-go (bar Dean resisting that final chance). Namely why Zachariah points out at the end of season 4 - more or less along the lines "you think we'd let 66 seals break on our watch without us wanting them to?" No matter how you slice it the Angels were following a script, sending the grunts out to fight to avoid rebellion (something that is also mentioned).

Quite literally - there is no way the Demons would have been able to break those seals if Heaven did not want them to - time traveling super powerful omniscient angels.

Crowley is still a low level demon compared to Alastair and Lilith his title is just a title, he doesn't have more powers only more authority because now he owns all souls in Hell, their power is based on age and eye color not titles. Meg would not have been a problem if he was so powerful, and he was afraid of her when he thought she was going to torture him because she learned directly from Alastair. He is still hurt by Holy water even as the King of Hell something that didn't work on even Yellow Eyes. Yellow Eyes was believed to be the most powerful because of his eyes and role but turns out Lilith was the top dog because she not only held rank but more power, due to being the first, demons are nothing but twisted ghost and it's pretty common knowledge that spirits get stronger the longer they are around and able to practice. The true form of angels period is destructive to the mortal plane it's not exclusive to Uriel or Castiel. Anna, a fallen angel was more powerful than Cas as her power did vaporize Alastairs meatsuit while Cas was powerless against him.

Crowley isn't a standard King of the Cross Roads - minus those red eyes - he's a giant floating gas of red smoke that has access to a large supply of souls. The entire point of the purgatory arc was so he could also get said souls to amp his powers. To establish himself without question as King of Hell. The holy water portion didn't make sense, admittedly, but bad writing happens sometimes. Plus holy water hurt Alister too.

Not that any of this matters the OP does not give them the option to call in Cas, so they die!

Which is fair, but Cas would still smoke Gozer.

How can we not infer that he was not plugged into Heaven when God was the one that brought him back though? He wasn't the same kind of fallen angel he was before, because there was no authority in Heaven to unplug him the second time. Zach was a seraph too but when demoted by Michael he just not all that tough. There was nothing to suggest other than his arrogance that Zach knew anything outside of what Michael told him as far as the plan. It could have been he could take Sam out of the cage for the same reason Dean could get out of Purgatory, bodies are not supposed to be there, hell is a place for souls. Lucifer was not physically torturing Sams body only his soul, so the body would not have mattered when it came to the cage. Even the fairies claimed they could get that soul out of the cage and scoffed at angelic powers.

In this scenario it's unlikely Gozer would take on the form of Stay Puft because they are not Ray and that image was snatched from his mind.

The same time traveling super powerful angels were not omniscient at all, as they did not know how the story would end, Gabriel implied that he traveled in time and saw the end result and he was wrong. Without an archangel Heaven couldn't even protect Kevin. Raphael had no idea what Castiel was up to until Crowley told him even though Cas came up with the whole unsink the Titantic plan which went unnoticed by everybody except Fate. Gabriel, Balthazar, Anna and the cambion all hid from Heaven, the first two did for centuries, even Dean and Sam were hidden from them with sigils so they are far from omniscient.

Yes Alastair was hurt by holy water but he was also trapped in a enochian version of the Devils trap and even vulnerable to salt which was supposed to not do much to the big leagues. The traps render them powerless, I'm betting the angelic one was a super charged version because outside of it he proved able to over power angels.

Him being red smoke makes no sense especially when Sam explained that demons are created by burning the humanity away until there was nothing but black smoke.

You do have valid points and I thinks it's a matter of how we see the scenes. Castiel never struck me as being anymore powerful than he was based on him and angels having next to no feats at first and most of what we know about what angels can do coming from what he saw him do, seemed pretty standard to me. He said he could bury Crowley because he was still an angel which is a very general statement IMO about the power of his species as a whole. This was fun....Winchesters die horribly lol.

This is how this battle will go

Gozer: Are you a god?

Dean: Yes

Gozer: Oh Ok...

Dean: Now Die b**** *Headshot with the colt*

#26 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@isaac_clarke said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

That was never proven, that is just what people thought because of a statement Dean made, he came back better than before because before he was nearly human before he was blown up. He also said he was gonna get Heaven in order which made fans speculate he was archangel level, which we know not to be true as he posed no real threat to an archangel without gaining power beyond his station. Gozer, in his verse he is a god, it doesn't matter what they would classify him as in Supernatural, why would their classification usurp the one from his reality just because he is fight them now?

@isaac_clarke: I'm talking about Castiel period. He showed no signs of being any more powerful than he was before he was unplugged outside of absorbing new souls. That statement about being a wavelength does not prove that is not what all angels are. Are you saying it's exclusive to him because he is the only angel to say it in a show where he is the only one that even feels the need to explain things to humans? Nor does it suggest he had some greater level of power. All Sam , Dean and Bobby had to do to not be negatively affected by his flash was close their eyes.

Except you know: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORjKXAbp5ko&feature=related

  • Dean: "Cas are you God?"
  • Castiel: "That's a nice compliment, but no... but I do believe he brought me back." *Castiel turns and proceeds to walk towards Bobby*
  • Castiel: "New and Improved."

He then proceeds to casually resurrect Bobby - who given his contract would be burning in hell. The only other time we've seen an angel raise someone from the pit (in this case the same angel right here) the process took multiple angels and one of them personally air-lifting Dean out of there. This was a walk in the park.

  • Dean: "What are you going to do now?"
  • Castiel: "Return to Heave I suppose."
  • Dean: "Heaven?"
  • Castiel: "With Michael in the cage I'm sure it's total anarchy up there."
  • Dean: "So what? You're the new sheriff in town?"
  • Castiel: "Heh, I like that yeah. I suppose I am."

As far as we know he wasn't even connected to heaven yet - but he acknowledges an improvement in himself and this new authority he is clearly sporting. The fact he immediately goes to hell after and goes into Lucifer's cage grabbing what he could of Sam. Something his previous iteration from Season 4 would have not been capable of. As he describes it, he was arrogant, confident in his ability and it being an act of hubris. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-2TkdMqbnA&feature=related

Later in the same episode Raphael chose to simply display his dominance, rather than obliterate Cas with ease as he did at the end of season 4 suggests Cas could at the very least take the hit this time around. The fact he's trying to poke Castiel with a blade later in the season, souls or not, infers Cas is sporting a bit more power than he previously had.

Then there is season 8 where Castiel finally establishes himself as a Seraphim while in purgatory - something he wasn't before his death in season 5 - suggest there was indeed a change in his angelic status post resurrection - a big shift in power. Namely why he can smite multiple demons casually while being a fallen angel and fry the King of Hell without breaking a sweat if he liked.

Why would he go Stay puft in this battle when it is his humanoid form being used in this battle that Castiel can't just swoop into anyway?

It would be a potential scenario given Gozer couldn't do anything but go Stay Puff in the closest thing to a sequel we're ever going to get to Ghost Busters 2. Otherwise the avatar he is going to be related to something Dean or Sam think up (which given how much a movie buff Dean is, might be Stay Puff). If he wasn't in Purgatory I'd say that would be the very Cas thing to do if he saw a giant marshmellow man trying to crush his humans.

When he was trying to fight Alastrair it was during the beginning when Heaven had sent them specifically to help Dean stop the seals, the revelation that they wanted to the end to come was much later and was not always the plan. Zachs appearances before he was demoted and reinstated all have him telling Dean that the Apocalypse is to be stopped, then Heaven decides after all the seals except Lilith are broken that they want it to happen.

Fate works for Heaven in Supernatural, the Archangels made a number of statements where they mention they knew exactly what was going to go down right from the get-go (bar Dean resisting that final chance). Namely why Zachariah points out at the end of season 4 - more or less along the lines "you think we'd let 66 seals break on our watch without us wanting them to?" No matter how you slice it the Angels were following a script, sending the grunts out to fight to avoid rebellion (something that is also mentioned).

Quite literally - there is no way the Demons would have been able to break those seals if Heaven did not want them to - time traveling super powerful omniscient angels.

Crowley is still a low level demon compared to Alastair and Lilith his title is just a title, he doesn't have more powers only more authority because now he owns all souls in Hell, their power is based on age and eye color not titles. Meg would not have been a problem if he was so powerful, and he was afraid of her when he thought she was going to torture him because she learned directly from Alastair. He is still hurt by Holy water even as the King of Hell something that didn't work on even Yellow Eyes. Yellow Eyes was believed to be the most powerful because of his eyes and role but turns out Lilith was the top dog because she not only held rank but more power, due to being the first, demons are nothing but twisted ghost and it's pretty common knowledge that spirits get stronger the longer they are around and able to practice. The true form of angels period is destructive to the mortal plane it's not exclusive to Uriel or Castiel. Anna, a fallen angel was more powerful than Cas as her power did vaporize Alastairs meatsuit while Cas was powerless against him.

Crowley isn't a standard King of the Cross Roads - minus those red eyes - he's a giant floating gas of red smoke that has access to a large supply of souls. The entire point of the purgatory arc was so he could also get said souls to amp his powers. To establish himself without question as King of Hell. The holy water portion didn't make sense, admittedly, but bad writing happens sometimes. Plus holy water hurt Alister too.

Not that any of this matters the OP does not give them the option to call in Cas, so they die!

Which is fair, but Cas would still smoke Gozer.

How can we not infer that he was not plugged into Heaven when God was the one that brought him back though? He wasn't the same kind of fallen angel he was before, because there was no authority in Heaven to unplug him the second time. Zach was a seraph too but when demoted by Michael he just not all that tough. There was nothing to suggest other than his arrogance that Zach knew anything outside of what Michael told him as far as the plan. It could have been he could take Sam out of the cage for the same reason Dean could get out of Purgatory, bodies are not supposed to be there, hell is a place for souls. Lucifer was not physically torturing Sams body only his soul, so the body would not have mattered when it came to the cage. Even the fairies claimed they could get that soul out of the cage and scoffed at angelic powers.

In this scenario it's unlikely Gozer would take on the form of Stay Puft because they are not Ray and that image was snatched from his mind.

The same time traveling super powerful angels were not omniscient at all, as they did not know how the story would end, Gabriel implied that he traveled in time and saw the end result and he was wrong. Without an archangel Heaven couldn't even protect Kevin. Raphael had no idea what Castiel was up to until Crowley told him even though Cas came up with the whole unsink the Titantic plan which went unnoticed by everybody except Fate. Gabriel, Balthazar, Anna and the cambion all hid from Heaven, the first two did for centuries, even Dean and Sam were hidden from them with sigils so they are far from omniscient.

Yes Alastair was hurt by holy water but he was also trapped in a enochian version of the Devils trap and even vulnerable to salt which was supposed to not do much to the big leagues. The traps render them powerless, I'm betting the angelic one was a super charged version because outside of it he proved able to over power angels.

Him being red smoke makes no sense especially when Sam explained that demons are created by burning the humanity away until there was nothing but black smoke.

You do have valid points and I thinks it's a matter of how we see the scenes. Castiel never struck me as being anymore powerful than he was based on him and angels having next to no feats at first and most of what we know about what angels can do coming from what he saw him do, seemed pretty standard to me. He said he could bury Crowley because he was still an angel which is a very general statement IMO about the power of his species as a whole. This was fun....Winchesters die horribly lol.

This is how this battle will go

Gozer: Are you a god?

Dean: Yes

Gozer: Oh Ok...

Dean: Now Die b**** *Headshot with the colt*

They don't have the colt in this battle or on the show, and like I said before there is no evidence the Colt will work on anything outside of Supernaturals Gods creation. Not to mention Gozer can read minds, her/him/ asking the Ghostbusters instead of reading their minds to know they were not gods was PIS, since the form of Stay Puft came from her/him/it doing just that.

#27 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7025 posts) - - Show Bio

Winchesters win due to PIS powers. Knowing them, they would somehow remember something in Bobby's/Their Dad's journals which explains how to defeat it, and to our amazement they would have what they need on hand.

#28 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

Winchesters win due to PIS powers. Knowing them, they would somehow remember something in Bobby's/Their Dad's journals which explains how to defeat it, and to our amazement they would have what they need on hand.

They can only have what is given by the OP, and that is nothing. I was being generous with the knife only because it was a standard weapon for them for like 4 seasons. How will Bobby have given them info on a being that never existed in their world? They didn't even know that there was a world where they are a television show and that world is part of their multiverse. There was no info in his or any other journal on Purgatory,Eve, or Leviathan because there was no lore due to no hunters ever facing them. Even with lore based off human stories they had no idea that fairies and angels existed until they encountered them, and still all their journals and experience offered nothing on how to deal with them. Gozer shouldn't be any different. PIS is off in battles, mainly because there is no plot here, these are not stories they are battles created by us.

#29 Posted by zackattack529 (1404 posts) - - Show Bio

Gozer, no problemo

#30 Posted by ComocYahweh (661 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@isaac_clarke said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

That was never proven, that is just what people thought because of a statement Dean made, he came back better than before because before he was nearly human before he was blown up. He also said he was gonna get Heaven in order which made fans speculate he was archangel level, which we know not to be true as he posed no real threat to an archangel without gaining power beyond his station. Gozer, in his verse he is a god, it doesn't matter what they would classify him as in Supernatural, why would their classification usurp the one from his reality just because he is fight them now?

@isaac_clarke: I'm talking about Castiel period. He showed no signs of being any more powerful than he was before he was unplugged outside of absorbing new souls. That statement about being a wavelength does not prove that is not what all angels are. Are you saying it's exclusive to him because he is the only angel to say it in a show where he is the only one that even feels the need to explain things to humans? Nor does it suggest he had some greater level of power. All Sam , Dean and Bobby had to do to not be negatively affected by his flash was close their eyes.

Except you know: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORjKXAbp5ko&feature=related

  • Dean: "Cas are you God?"
  • Castiel: "That's a nice compliment, but no... but I do believe he brought me back." *Castiel turns and proceeds to walk towards Bobby*
  • Castiel: "New and Improved."

He then proceeds to casually resurrect Bobby - who given his contract would be burning in hell. The only other time we've seen an angel raise someone from the pit (in this case the same angel right here) the process took multiple angels and one of them personally air-lifting Dean out of there. This was a walk in the park.

  • Dean: "What are you going to do now?"
  • Castiel: "Return to Heave I suppose."
  • Dean: "Heaven?"
  • Castiel: "With Michael in the cage I'm sure it's total anarchy up there."
  • Dean: "So what? You're the new sheriff in town?"
  • Castiel: "Heh, I like that yeah. I suppose I am."

As far as we know he wasn't even connected to heaven yet - but he acknowledges an improvement in himself and this new authority he is clearly sporting. The fact he immediately goes to hell after and goes into Lucifer's cage grabbing what he could of Sam. Something his previous iteration from Season 4 would have not been capable of. As he describes it, he was arrogant, confident in his ability and it being an act of hubris. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-2TkdMqbnA&feature=related

Later in the same episode Raphael chose to simply display his dominance, rather than obliterate Cas with ease as he did at the end of season 4 suggests Cas could at the very least take the hit this time around. The fact he's trying to poke Castiel with a blade later in the season, souls or not, infers Cas is sporting a bit more power than he previously had.

Then there is season 8 where Castiel finally establishes himself as a Seraphim while in purgatory - something he wasn't before his death in season 5 - suggest there was indeed a change in his angelic status post resurrection - a big shift in power. Namely why he can smite multiple demons casually while being a fallen angel and fry the King of Hell without breaking a sweat if he liked.

Why would he go Stay puft in this battle when it is his humanoid form being used in this battle that Castiel can't just swoop into anyway?

It would be a potential scenario given Gozer couldn't do anything but go Stay Puff in the closest thing to a sequel we're ever going to get to Ghost Busters 2. Otherwise the avatar he is going to be related to something Dean or Sam think up (which given how much a movie buff Dean is, might be Stay Puff). If he wasn't in Purgatory I'd say that would be the very Cas thing to do if he saw a giant marshmellow man trying to crush his humans.

When he was trying to fight Alastrair it was during the beginning when Heaven had sent them specifically to help Dean stop the seals, the revelation that they wanted to the end to come was much later and was not always the plan. Zachs appearances before he was demoted and reinstated all have him telling Dean that the Apocalypse is to be stopped, then Heaven decides after all the seals except Lilith are broken that they want it to happen.

Fate works for Heaven in Supernatural, the Archangels made a number of statements where they mention they knew exactly what was going to go down right from the get-go (bar Dean resisting that final chance). Namely why Zachariah points out at the end of season 4 - more or less along the lines "you think we'd let 66 seals break on our watch without us wanting them to?" No matter how you slice it the Angels were following a script, sending the grunts out to fight to avoid rebellion (something that is also mentioned).

Quite literally - there is no way the Demons would have been able to break those seals if Heaven did not want them to - time traveling super powerful omniscient angels.

Crowley is still a low level demon compared to Alastair and Lilith his title is just a title, he doesn't have more powers only more authority because now he owns all souls in Hell, their power is based on age and eye color not titles. Meg would not have been a problem if he was so powerful, and he was afraid of her when he thought she was going to torture him because she learned directly from Alastair. He is still hurt by Holy water even as the King of Hell something that didn't work on even Yellow Eyes. Yellow Eyes was believed to be the most powerful because of his eyes and role but turns out Lilith was the top dog because she not only held rank but more power, due to being the first, demons are nothing but twisted ghost and it's pretty common knowledge that spirits get stronger the longer they are around and able to practice. The true form of angels period is destructive to the mortal plane it's not exclusive to Uriel or Castiel. Anna, a fallen angel was more powerful than Cas as her power did vaporize Alastairs meatsuit while Cas was powerless against him.

Crowley isn't a standard King of the Cross Roads - minus those red eyes - he's a giant floating gas of red smoke that has access to a large supply of souls. The entire point of the purgatory arc was so he could also get said souls to amp his powers. To establish himself without question as King of Hell. The holy water portion didn't make sense, admittedly, but bad writing happens sometimes. Plus holy water hurt Alister too.

Not that any of this matters the OP does not give them the option to call in Cas, so they die!

Which is fair, but Cas would still smoke Gozer.

How can we not infer that he was not plugged into Heaven when God was the one that brought him back though? He wasn't the same kind of fallen angel he was before, because there was no authority in Heaven to unplug him the second time. Zach was a seraph too but when demoted by Michael he just not all that tough. There was nothing to suggest other than his arrogance that Zach knew anything outside of what Michael told him as far as the plan. It could have been he could take Sam out of the cage for the same reason Dean could get out of Purgatory, bodies are not supposed to be there, hell is a place for souls. Lucifer was not physically torturing Sams body only his soul, so the body would not have mattered when it came to the cage. Even the fairies claimed they could get that soul out of the cage and scoffed at angelic powers.

In this scenario it's unlikely Gozer would take on the form of Stay Puft because they are not Ray and that image was snatched from his mind.

The same time traveling super powerful angels were not omniscient at all, as they did not know how the story would end, Gabriel implied that he traveled in time and saw the end result and he was wrong. Without an archangel Heaven couldn't even protect Kevin. Raphael had no idea what Castiel was up to until Crowley told him even though Cas came up with the whole unsink the Titantic plan which went unnoticed by everybody except Fate. Gabriel, Balthazar, Anna and the cambion all hid from Heaven, the first two did for centuries, even Dean and Sam were hidden from them with sigils so they are far from omniscient.

Yes Alastair was hurt by holy water but he was also trapped in a enochian version of the Devils trap and even vulnerable to salt which was supposed to not do much to the big leagues. The traps render them powerless, I'm betting the angelic one was a super charged version because outside of it he proved able to over power angels.

Him being red smoke makes no sense especially when Sam explained that demons are created by burning the humanity away until there was nothing but black smoke.

You do have valid points and I thinks it's a matter of how we see the scenes. Castiel never struck me as being anymore powerful than he was based on him and angels having next to no feats at first and most of what we know about what angels can do coming from what he saw him do, seemed pretty standard to me. He said he could bury Crowley because he was still an angel which is a very general statement IMO about the power of his species as a whole. This was fun....Winchesters die horribly lol.

This is how this battle will go

Gozer: Are you a god?

Dean: Yes

Gozer: Oh Ok...

Dean: Now Die b**** *Headshot with the colt*

They don't have the colt in this battle or on the show, and like I said before there is no evidence the Colt will work on anything outside of Supernaturals Gods creation. Not to mention Gozer can read minds, her/him/ asking the Ghostbusters instead of reading their minds to know they were not gods was PIS, since the form of Stay Puft came from her/him/it doing just that.

That's the same thing as saying, there is no evidence that Gozer can use his powers outside Ghostbuster verse. Also why would they not have the colt? Just because they don't currently have it in the series doesn't mean they can't use it in this fight, also current Gozer is dead anyways.

#31 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7025 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans:

I think you're taking my comment too seriously. I was merely pointing out the PIS powers that accompany the Winchester brothers as they are able to defeat beings, who would for all intents and purposes squish them fairly easily. My answer is in response to the others presented in this thread, and should be taken with a grain of salt. In other words, it was a joke. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

#32 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmgOmgWtfWtf: It's not serious at all, but ComocYahweh is serious in thinking they can win when there is no possible hope so replying to your comment was for his benefit as well, since he doesn't seem to be versed in the battle forum rules.:)

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@isaac_clarke said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

That was never proven, that is just what people thought because of a statement Dean made, he came back better than before because before he was nearly human before he was blown up. He also said he was gonna get Heaven in order which made fans speculate he was archangel level, which we know not to be true as he posed no real threat to an archangel without gaining power beyond his station. Gozer, in his verse he is a god, it doesn't matter what they would classify him as in Supernatural, why would their classification usurp the one from his reality just because he is fight them now?

@isaac_clarke: I'm talking about Castiel period. He showed no signs of being any more powerful than he was before he was unplugged outside of absorbing new souls. That statement about being a wavelength does not prove that is not what all angels are. Are you saying it's exclusive to him because he is the only angel to say it in a show where he is the only one that even feels the need to explain things to humans? Nor does it suggest he had some greater level of power. All Sam , Dean and Bobby had to do to not be negatively affected by his flash was close their eyes.

Except you know: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORjKXAbp5ko&feature=related

  • Dean: "Cas are you God?"
  • Castiel: "That's a nice compliment, but no... but I do believe he brought me back." *Castiel turns and proceeds to walk towards Bobby*
  • Castiel: "New and Improved."

He then proceeds to casually resurrect Bobby - who given his contract would be burning in hell. The only other time we've seen an angel raise someone from the pit (in this case the same angel right here) the process took multiple angels and one of them personally air-lifting Dean out of there. This was a walk in the park.

  • Dean: "What are you going to do now?"
  • Castiel: "Return to Heave I suppose."
  • Dean: "Heaven?"
  • Castiel: "With Michael in the cage I'm sure it's total anarchy up there."
  • Dean: "So what? You're the new sheriff in town?"
  • Castiel: "Heh, I like that yeah. I suppose I am."

As far as we know he wasn't even connected to heaven yet - but he acknowledges an improvement in himself and this new authority he is clearly sporting. The fact he immediately goes to hell after and goes into Lucifer's cage grabbing what he could of Sam. Something his previous iteration from Season 4 would have not been capable of. As he describes it, he was arrogant, confident in his ability and it being an act of hubris. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-2TkdMqbnA&feature=related

Later in the same episode Raphael chose to simply display his dominance, rather than obliterate Cas with ease as he did at the end of season 4 suggests Cas could at the very least take the hit this time around. The fact he's trying to poke Castiel with a blade later in the season, souls or not, infers Cas is sporting a bit more power than he previously had.

Then there is season 8 where Castiel finally establishes himself as a Seraphim while in purgatory - something he wasn't before his death in season 5 - suggest there was indeed a change in his angelic status post resurrection - a big shift in power. Namely why he can smite multiple demons casually while being a fallen angel and fry the King of Hell without breaking a sweat if he liked.

Why would he go Stay puft in this battle when it is his humanoid form being used in this battle that Castiel can't just swoop into anyway?

It would be a potential scenario given Gozer couldn't do anything but go Stay Puff in the closest thing to a sequel we're ever going to get to Ghost Busters 2. Otherwise the avatar he is going to be related to something Dean or Sam think up (which given how much a movie buff Dean is, might be Stay Puff). If he wasn't in Purgatory I'd say that would be the very Cas thing to do if he saw a giant marshmellow man trying to crush his humans.

When he was trying to fight Alastrair it was during the beginning when Heaven had sent them specifically to help Dean stop the seals, the revelation that they wanted to the end to come was much later and was not always the plan. Zachs appearances before he was demoted and reinstated all have him telling Dean that the Apocalypse is to be stopped, then Heaven decides after all the seals except Lilith are broken that they want it to happen.

Fate works for Heaven in Supernatural, the Archangels made a number of statements where they mention they knew exactly what was going to go down right from the get-go (bar Dean resisting that final chance). Namely why Zachariah points out at the end of season 4 - more or less along the lines "you think we'd let 66 seals break on our watch without us wanting them to?" No matter how you slice it the Angels were following a script, sending the grunts out to fight to avoid rebellion (something that is also mentioned).

Quite literally - there is no way the Demons would have been able to break those seals if Heaven did not want them to - time traveling super powerful omniscient angels.

Crowley is still a low level demon compared to Alastair and Lilith his title is just a title, he doesn't have more powers only more authority because now he owns all souls in Hell, their power is based on age and eye color not titles. Meg would not have been a problem if he was so powerful, and he was afraid of her when he thought she was going to torture him because she learned directly from Alastair. He is still hurt by Holy water even as the King of Hell something that didn't work on even Yellow Eyes. Yellow Eyes was believed to be the most powerful because of his eyes and role but turns out Lilith was the top dog because she not only held rank but more power, due to being the first, demons are nothing but twisted ghost and it's pretty common knowledge that spirits get stronger the longer they are around and able to practice. The true form of angels period is destructive to the mortal plane it's not exclusive to Uriel or Castiel. Anna, a fallen angel was more powerful than Cas as her power did vaporize Alastairs meatsuit while Cas was powerless against him.

Crowley isn't a standard King of the Cross Roads - minus those red eyes - he's a giant floating gas of red smoke that has access to a large supply of souls. The entire point of the purgatory arc was so he could also get said souls to amp his powers. To establish himself without question as King of Hell. The holy water portion didn't make sense, admittedly, but bad writing happens sometimes. Plus holy water hurt Alister too.

Not that any of this matters the OP does not give them the option to call in Cas, so they die!

Which is fair, but Cas would still smoke Gozer.

How can we not infer that he was not plugged into Heaven when God was the one that brought him back though? He wasn't the same kind of fallen angel he was before, because there was no authority in Heaven to unplug him the second time. Zach was a seraph too but when demoted by Michael he just not all that tough. There was nothing to suggest other than his arrogance that Zach knew anything outside of what Michael told him as far as the plan. It could have been he could take Sam out of the cage for the same reason Dean could get out of Purgatory, bodies are not supposed to be there, hell is a place for souls. Lucifer was not physically torturing Sams body only his soul, so the body would not have mattered when it came to the cage. Even the fairies claimed they could get that soul out of the cage and scoffed at angelic powers.

In this scenario it's unlikely Gozer would take on the form of Stay Puft because they are not Ray and that image was snatched from his mind.

The same time traveling super powerful angels were not omniscient at all, as they did not know how the story would end, Gabriel implied that he traveled in time and saw the end result and he was wrong. Without an archangel Heaven couldn't even protect Kevin. Raphael had no idea what Castiel was up to until Crowley told him even though Cas came up with the whole unsink the Titantic plan which went unnoticed by everybody except Fate. Gabriel, Balthazar, Anna and the cambion all hid from Heaven, the first two did for centuries, even Dean and Sam were hidden from them with sigils so they are far from omniscient.

Yes Alastair was hurt by holy water but he was also trapped in a enochian version of the Devils trap and even vulnerable to salt which was supposed to not do much to the big leagues. The traps render them powerless, I'm betting the angelic one was a super charged version because outside of it he proved able to over power angels.

Him being red smoke makes no sense especially when Sam explained that demons are created by burning the humanity away until there was nothing but black smoke.

You do have valid points and I thinks it's a matter of how we see the scenes. Castiel never struck me as being anymore powerful than he was based on him and angels having next to no feats at first and most of what we know about what angels can do coming from what he saw him do, seemed pretty standard to me. He said he could bury Crowley because he was still an angel which is a very general statement IMO about the power of his species as a whole. This was fun....Winchesters die horribly lol.

This is how this battle will go

Gozer: Are you a god?

Dean: Yes

Gozer: Oh Ok...

Dean: Now Die b**** *Headshot with the colt*

They don't have the colt in this battle or on the show, and like I said before there is no evidence the Colt will work on anything outside of Supernaturals Gods creation. Not to mention Gozer can read minds, her/him/ asking the Ghostbusters instead of reading their minds to know they were not gods was PIS, since the form of Stay Puft came from her/him/it doing just that.

That's the same thing as saying, there is no evidence that Gozer can use his powers outside Ghostbuster verse. Also why would they not have the colt? Just because they don't currently have it in the series doesn't mean they can't use it in this fight, also current Gozer is dead anyways.

No it's not the same thing Gozer is a trandimensional being and has power outside of it's dimension not to mention this battle takes place in the Ghostbuster universe because they are replacing them. The IG is an example of such a weapon, as powerful as it is it does not work outside of Marvel, so without stipulations in a battle thread it's not the best weapon to chose when not fighting in Marvel. They can't use it in the fight because the OP doesn't give it to them, so at best we go by standard equipment and it is not standard.

#33 Posted by ComocYahweh (661 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

@LordOfAllHumans:

I think you're taking my comment too seriously. I was merely pointing out the PIS powers that accompany the Winchester brothers as they are able to defeat beings, who would for all intents and purposes squish them fairly easily. My answer is in response to the others presented in this thread, and should be taken with a grain of salt. In other words, it was a joke. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

It has been hinted that they are backed by God.

#34 Posted by ComocYahweh (661 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@OmgOmgWtfWtf: It's not serious at all, but ComocYahweh is serious in thinking they can win when there is no possible hope so replying to your comment was for his benefit as well, since he doesn't seem to be versed in the battle forum rules.:)

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@isaac_clarke said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

That was never proven, that is just what people thought because of a statement Dean made, he came back better than before because before he was nearly human before he was blown up. He also said he was gonna get Heaven in order which made fans speculate he was archangel level, which we know not to be true as he posed no real threat to an archangel without gaining power beyond his station. Gozer, in his verse he is a god, it doesn't matter what they would classify him as in Supernatural, why would their classification usurp the one from his reality just because he is fight them now?

@isaac_clarke: I'm talking about Castiel period. He showed no signs of being any more powerful than he was before he was unplugged outside of absorbing new souls. That statement about being a wavelength does not prove that is not what all angels are. Are you saying it's exclusive to him because he is the only angel to say it in a show where he is the only one that even feels the need to explain things to humans? Nor does it suggest he had some greater level of power. All Sam , Dean and Bobby had to do to not be negatively affected by his flash was close their eyes.

Except you know: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORjKXAbp5ko&feature=related

  • Dean: "Cas are you God?"
  • Castiel: "That's a nice compliment, but no... but I do believe he brought me back." *Castiel turns and proceeds to walk towards Bobby*
  • Castiel: "New and Improved."

He then proceeds to casually resurrect Bobby - who given his contract would be burning in hell. The only other time we've seen an angel raise someone from the pit (in this case the same angel right here) the process took multiple angels and one of them personally air-lifting Dean out of there. This was a walk in the park.

  • Dean: "What are you going to do now?"
  • Castiel: "Return to Heave I suppose."
  • Dean: "Heaven?"
  • Castiel: "With Michael in the cage I'm sure it's total anarchy up there."
  • Dean: "So what? You're the new sheriff in town?"
  • Castiel: "Heh, I like that yeah. I suppose I am."

As far as we know he wasn't even connected to heaven yet - but he acknowledges an improvement in himself and this new authority he is clearly sporting. The fact he immediately goes to hell after and goes into Lucifer's cage grabbing what he could of Sam. Something his previous iteration from Season 4 would have not been capable of. As he describes it, he was arrogant, confident in his ability and it being an act of hubris. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-2TkdMqbnA&feature=related

Later in the same episode Raphael chose to simply display his dominance, rather than obliterate Cas with ease as he did at the end of season 4 suggests Cas could at the very least take the hit this time around. The fact he's trying to poke Castiel with a blade later in the season, souls or not, infers Cas is sporting a bit more power than he previously had.

Then there is season 8 where Castiel finally establishes himself as a Seraphim while in purgatory - something he wasn't before his death in season 5 - suggest there was indeed a change in his angelic status post resurrection - a big shift in power. Namely why he can smite multiple demons casually while being a fallen angel and fry the King of Hell without breaking a sweat if he liked.

Why would he go Stay puft in this battle when it is his humanoid form being used in this battle that Castiel can't just swoop into anyway?

It would be a potential scenario given Gozer couldn't do anything but go Stay Puff in the closest thing to a sequel we're ever going to get to Ghost Busters 2. Otherwise the avatar he is going to be related to something Dean or Sam think up (which given how much a movie buff Dean is, might be Stay Puff). If he wasn't in Purgatory I'd say that would be the very Cas thing to do if he saw a giant marshmellow man trying to crush his humans.

When he was trying to fight Alastrair it was during the beginning when Heaven had sent them specifically to help Dean stop the seals, the revelation that they wanted to the end to come was much later and was not always the plan. Zachs appearances before he was demoted and reinstated all have him telling Dean that the Apocalypse is to be stopped, then Heaven decides after all the seals except Lilith are broken that they want it to happen.

Fate works for Heaven in Supernatural, the Archangels made a number of statements where they mention they knew exactly what was going to go down right from the get-go (bar Dean resisting that final chance). Namely why Zachariah points out at the end of season 4 - more or less along the lines "you think we'd let 66 seals break on our watch without us wanting them to?" No matter how you slice it the Angels were following a script, sending the grunts out to fight to avoid rebellion (something that is also mentioned).

Quite literally - there is no way the Demons would have been able to break those seals if Heaven did not want them to - time traveling super powerful omniscient angels.

Crowley is still a low level demon compared to Alastair and Lilith his title is just a title, he doesn't have more powers only more authority because now he owns all souls in Hell, their power is based on age and eye color not titles. Meg would not have been a problem if he was so powerful, and he was afraid of her when he thought she was going to torture him because she learned directly from Alastair. He is still hurt by Holy water even as the King of Hell something that didn't work on even Yellow Eyes. Yellow Eyes was believed to be the most powerful because of his eyes and role but turns out Lilith was the top dog because she not only held rank but more power, due to being the first, demons are nothing but twisted ghost and it's pretty common knowledge that spirits get stronger the longer they are around and able to practice. The true form of angels period is destructive to the mortal plane it's not exclusive to Uriel or Castiel. Anna, a fallen angel was more powerful than Cas as her power did vaporize Alastairs meatsuit while Cas was powerless against him.

Crowley isn't a standard King of the Cross Roads - minus those red eyes - he's a giant floating gas of red smoke that has access to a large supply of souls. The entire point of the purgatory arc was so he could also get said souls to amp his powers. To establish himself without question as King of Hell. The holy water portion didn't make sense, admittedly, but bad writing happens sometimes. Plus holy water hurt Alister too.

Not that any of this matters the OP does not give them the option to call in Cas, so they die!

Which is fair, but Cas would still smoke Gozer.

How can we not infer that he was not plugged into Heaven when God was the one that brought him back though? He wasn't the same kind of fallen angel he was before, because there was no authority in Heaven to unplug him the second time. Zach was a seraph too but when demoted by Michael he just not all that tough. There was nothing to suggest other than his arrogance that Zach knew anything outside of what Michael told him as far as the plan. It could have been he could take Sam out of the cage for the same reason Dean could get out of Purgatory, bodies are not supposed to be there, hell is a place for souls. Lucifer was not physically torturing Sams body only his soul, so the body would not have mattered when it came to the cage. Even the fairies claimed they could get that soul out of the cage and scoffed at angelic powers.

In this scenario it's unlikely Gozer would take on the form of Stay Puft because they are not Ray and that image was snatched from his mind.

The same time traveling super powerful angels were not omniscient at all, as they did not know how the story would end, Gabriel implied that he traveled in time and saw the end result and he was wrong. Without an archangel Heaven couldn't even protect Kevin. Raphael had no idea what Castiel was up to until Crowley told him even though Cas came up with the whole unsink the Titantic plan which went unnoticed by everybody except Fate. Gabriel, Balthazar, Anna and the cambion all hid from Heaven, the first two did for centuries, even Dean and Sam were hidden from them with sigils so they are far from omniscient.

Yes Alastair was hurt by holy water but he was also trapped in a enochian version of the Devils trap and even vulnerable to salt which was supposed to not do much to the big leagues. The traps render them powerless, I'm betting the angelic one was a super charged version because outside of it he proved able to over power angels.

Him being red smoke makes no sense especially when Sam explained that demons are created by burning the humanity away until there was nothing but black smoke.

You do have valid points and I thinks it's a matter of how we see the scenes. Castiel never struck me as being anymore powerful than he was based on him and angels having next to no feats at first and most of what we know about what angels can do coming from what he saw him do, seemed pretty standard to me. He said he could bury Crowley because he was still an angel which is a very general statement IMO about the power of his species as a whole. This was fun....Winchesters die horribly lol.

This is how this battle will go

Gozer: Are you a god?

Dean: Yes

Gozer: Oh Ok...

Dean: Now Die b**** *Headshot with the colt*

They don't have the colt in this battle or on the show, and like I said before there is no evidence the Colt will work on anything outside of Supernaturals Gods creation. Not to mention Gozer can read minds, her/him/ asking the Ghostbusters instead of reading their minds to know they were not gods was PIS, since the form of Stay Puft came from her/him/it doing just that.

That's the same thing as saying, there is no evidence that Gozer can use his powers outside Ghostbuster verse. Also why would they not have the colt? Just because they don't currently have it in the series doesn't mean they can't use it in this fight, also current Gozer is dead anyways.

No it's not the same thing Gozer is a trandimensional being and has power outside of it's dimension not to mention this battle takes place in the Ghostbuster universe because they are replacing them. The IG is an example of such a weapon, as powerful as it is it does not work outside of Marvel, so without stipulations in a battle thread it's not the best weapon to chose when not fighting in Marvel. They can't use it in the fight because the OP doesn't give it to them, so at best we go by standard equipment and it is not standard.

It's obvious that they have what ever weapon needed to defeat their opponent, else it's spite thread, and with the Colt it's stomp.

#35 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@OmgOmgWtfWtf: It's not serious at all, but ComocYahweh is serious in thinking they can win when there is no possible hope so replying to your comment was for his benefit as well, since he doesn't seem to be versed in the battle forum rules.:)

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@isaac_clarke said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

That was never proven, that is just what people thought because of a statement Dean made, he came back better than before because before he was nearly human before he was blown up. He also said he was gonna get Heaven in order which made fans speculate he was archangel level, which we know not to be true as he posed no real threat to an archangel without gaining power beyond his station. Gozer, in his verse he is a god, it doesn't matter what they would classify him as in Supernatural, why would their classification usurp the one from his reality just because he is fight them now?

@isaac_clarke: I'm talking about Castiel period. He showed no signs of being any more powerful than he was before he was unplugged outside of absorbing new souls. That statement about being a wavelength does not prove that is not what all angels are. Are you saying it's exclusive to him because he is the only angel to say it in a show where he is the only one that even feels the need to explain things to humans? Nor does it suggest he had some greater level of power. All Sam , Dean and Bobby had to do to not be negatively affected by his flash was close their eyes.

Except you know: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORjKXAbp5ko&feature=related

  • Dean: "Cas are you God?"
  • Castiel: "That's a nice compliment, but no... but I do believe he brought me back." *Castiel turns and proceeds to walk towards Bobby*
  • Castiel: "New and Improved."

He then proceeds to casually resurrect Bobby - who given his contract would be burning in hell. The only other time we've seen an angel raise someone from the pit (in this case the same angel right here) the process took multiple angels and one of them personally air-lifting Dean out of there. This was a walk in the park.

  • Dean: "What are you going to do now?"
  • Castiel: "Return to Heave I suppose."
  • Dean: "Heaven?"
  • Castiel: "With Michael in the cage I'm sure it's total anarchy up there."
  • Dean: "So what? You're the new sheriff in town?"
  • Castiel: "Heh, I like that yeah. I suppose I am."

As far as we know he wasn't even connected to heaven yet - but he acknowledges an improvement in himself and this new authority he is clearly sporting. The fact he immediately goes to hell after and goes into Lucifer's cage grabbing what he could of Sam. Something his previous iteration from Season 4 would have not been capable of. As he describes it, he was arrogant, confident in his ability and it being an act of hubris. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-2TkdMqbnA&feature=related

Later in the same episode Raphael chose to simply display his dominance, rather than obliterate Cas with ease as he did at the end of season 4 suggests Cas could at the very least take the hit this time around. The fact he's trying to poke Castiel with a blade later in the season, souls or not, infers Cas is sporting a bit more power than he previously had.

Then there is season 8 where Castiel finally establishes himself as a Seraphim while in purgatory - something he wasn't before his death in season 5 - suggest there was indeed a change in his angelic status post resurrection - a big shift in power. Namely why he can smite multiple demons casually while being a fallen angel and fry the King of Hell without breaking a sweat if he liked.

Why would he go Stay puft in this battle when it is his humanoid form being used in this battle that Castiel can't just swoop into anyway?

It would be a potential scenario given Gozer couldn't do anything but go Stay Puff in the closest thing to a sequel we're ever going to get to Ghost Busters 2. Otherwise the avatar he is going to be related to something Dean or Sam think up (which given how much a movie buff Dean is, might be Stay Puff). If he wasn't in Purgatory I'd say that would be the very Cas thing to do if he saw a giant marshmellow man trying to crush his humans.

When he was trying to fight Alastrair it was during the beginning when Heaven had sent them specifically to help Dean stop the seals, the revelation that they wanted to the end to come was much later and was not always the plan. Zachs appearances before he was demoted and reinstated all have him telling Dean that the Apocalypse is to be stopped, then Heaven decides after all the seals except Lilith are broken that they want it to happen.

Fate works for Heaven in Supernatural, the Archangels made a number of statements where they mention they knew exactly what was going to go down right from the get-go (bar Dean resisting that final chance). Namely why Zachariah points out at the end of season 4 - more or less along the lines "you think we'd let 66 seals break on our watch without us wanting them to?" No matter how you slice it the Angels were following a script, sending the grunts out to fight to avoid rebellion (something that is also mentioned).

Quite literally - there is no way the Demons would have been able to break those seals if Heaven did not want them to - time traveling super powerful omniscient angels.

Crowley is still a low level demon compared to Alastair and Lilith his title is just a title, he doesn't have more powers only more authority because now he owns all souls in Hell, their power is based on age and eye color not titles. Meg would not have been a problem if he was so powerful, and he was afraid of her when he thought she was going to torture him because she learned directly from Alastair. He is still hurt by Holy water even as the King of Hell something that didn't work on even Yellow Eyes. Yellow Eyes was believed to be the most powerful because of his eyes and role but turns out Lilith was the top dog because she not only held rank but more power, due to being the first, demons are nothing but twisted ghost and it's pretty common knowledge that spirits get stronger the longer they are around and able to practice. The true form of angels period is destructive to the mortal plane it's not exclusive to Uriel or Castiel. Anna, a fallen angel was more powerful than Cas as her power did vaporize Alastairs meatsuit while Cas was powerless against him.

Crowley isn't a standard King of the Cross Roads - minus those red eyes - he's a giant floating gas of red smoke that has access to a large supply of souls. The entire point of the purgatory arc was so he could also get said souls to amp his powers. To establish himself without question as King of Hell. The holy water portion didn't make sense, admittedly, but bad writing happens sometimes. Plus holy water hurt Alister too.

Not that any of this matters the OP does not give them the option to call in Cas, so they die!

Which is fair, but Cas would still smoke Gozer.

How can we not infer that he was not plugged into Heaven when God was the one that brought him back though? He wasn't the same kind of fallen angel he was before, because there was no authority in Heaven to unplug him the second time. Zach was a seraph too but when demoted by Michael he just not all that tough. There was nothing to suggest other than his arrogance that Zach knew anything outside of what Michael told him as far as the plan. It could have been he could take Sam out of the cage for the same reason Dean could get out of Purgatory, bodies are not supposed to be there, hell is a place for souls. Lucifer was not physically torturing Sams body only his soul, so the body would not have mattered when it came to the cage. Even the fairies claimed they could get that soul out of the cage and scoffed at angelic powers.

In this scenario it's unlikely Gozer would take on the form of Stay Puft because they are not Ray and that image was snatched from his mind.

The same time traveling super powerful angels were not omniscient at all, as they did not know how the story would end, Gabriel implied that he traveled in time and saw the end result and he was wrong. Without an archangel Heaven couldn't even protect Kevin. Raphael had no idea what Castiel was up to until Crowley told him even though Cas came up with the whole unsink the Titantic plan which went unnoticed by everybody except Fate. Gabriel, Balthazar, Anna and the cambion all hid from Heaven, the first two did for centuries, even Dean and Sam were hidden from them with sigils so they are far from omniscient.

Yes Alastair was hurt by holy water but he was also trapped in a enochian version of the Devils trap and even vulnerable to salt which was supposed to not do much to the big leagues. The traps render them powerless, I'm betting the angelic one was a super charged version because outside of it he proved able to over power angels.

Him being red smoke makes no sense especially when Sam explained that demons are created by burning the humanity away until there was nothing but black smoke.

You do have valid points and I thinks it's a matter of how we see the scenes. Castiel never struck me as being anymore powerful than he was based on him and angels having next to no feats at first and most of what we know about what angels can do coming from what he saw him do, seemed pretty standard to me. He said he could bury Crowley because he was still an angel which is a very general statement IMO about the power of his species as a whole. This was fun....Winchesters die horribly lol.

This is how this battle will go

Gozer: Are you a god?

Dean: Yes

Gozer: Oh Ok...

Dean: Now Die b**** *Headshot with the colt*

They don't have the colt in this battle or on the show, and like I said before there is no evidence the Colt will work on anything outside of Supernaturals Gods creation. Not to mention Gozer can read minds, her/him/ asking the Ghostbusters instead of reading their minds to know they were not gods was PIS, since the form of Stay Puft came from her/him/it doing just that.

That's the same thing as saying, there is no evidence that Gozer can use his powers outside Ghostbuster verse. Also why would they not have the colt? Just because they don't currently have it in the series doesn't mean they can't use it in this fight, also current Gozer is dead anyways.

No it's not the same thing Gozer is a trandimensional being and has power outside of it's dimension not to mention this battle takes place in the Ghostbuster universe because they are replacing them. The IG is an example of such a weapon, as powerful as it is it does not work outside of Marvel, so without stipulations in a battle thread it's not the best weapon to chose when not fighting in Marvel. They can't use it in the fight because the OP doesn't give it to them, so at best we go by standard equipment and it is not standard.

It's obvious that they have what ever weapon needed to defeat their opponent, else it's spite thread, and with the Colt it's stomp.

It would be obvious if they it were in the OP and it's not, if you think it's spite then flag it as such. There would be no battles if everybody got everything they needed to defeat an opponent, and with the Colt you have nothing to prove it works outside of their world. I will once again make reference to the world where they are a tv show, there is no magic/mojo there so the colt would be a regular gun in that world and it's part of their multiverse.

@ComocYahweh said:

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

@LordOfAllHumans:

I think you're taking my comment too seriously. I was merely pointing out the PIS powers that accompany the Winchester brothers as they are able to defeat beings, who would for all intents and purposes squish them fairly easily. My answer is in response to the others presented in this thread, and should be taken with a grain of salt. In other words, it was a joke. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

It has been hinted that they are backed by God.

Hinted by whom? Not in this thread, and that doesn't matter because they are outside of his universe. Angels are backed by God in that he is the source of their grace and Heaven itself,and Virgil was powerless when they were transported to that other universe where they were the actors that played them.

#36 Posted by ComocYahweh (661 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

@LordOfAllHumans:

I think you're taking my comment too seriously. I was merely pointing out the PIS powers that accompany the Winchester brothers as they are able to defeat beings, who would for all intents and purposes squish them fairly easily. My answer is in response to the others presented in this thread, and should be taken with a grain of salt. In other words, it was a joke. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

It has been hinted that they are backed by God.

Hinted by whom? Not in this thread, and that doesn't matter because they are outside of his universe. Angels are backed by God in that he is the source of their grace and Heaven itself,and Virgil was powerless when they were transported to that other universe where they were the actors that played them.

It has been hinted on many places, e.g Castiel saying he thinks God helped. Also these is no ''outside of his universe'' God created everything according to supernatural verse, and no God isn't the source of angel grace, normal angels get their powers from heaven, and the reason Virgin was powerless was because they were in a universe without anything Supernatural.

#37 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

@LordOfAllHumans:

I think you're taking my comment too seriously. I was merely pointing out the PIS powers that accompany the Winchester brothers as they are able to defeat beings, who would for all intents and purposes squish them fairly easily. My answer is in response to the others presented in this thread, and should be taken with a grain of salt. In other words, it was a joke. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

It has been hinted that they are backed by God.

Hinted by whom? Not in this thread, and that doesn't matter because they are outside of his universe. Angels are backed by God in that he is the source of their grace and Heaven itself,and Virgil was powerless when they were transported to that other universe where they were the actors that played them.

It has been hinted on many places, e.g Castiel saying he thinks God helped. Also these is no ''outside of his universe'' God created everything according to supernatural verse, and no God isn't the source of angel grace, normal angels get their powers from heaven, and the reason Virgin was powerless was because they were in a universe without anything Supernatural.

That was one maybe twice when he directly intervened that is not any indication that he is always helping them. Ghostbusters is outside of their universe, so is Marvel and everything else not related to them. Where does Heaven come from? God. The grace is pure creation, that power comes from the Creator so like I said the source of the grace is God. In a universe where there was no mojo Virgils God given power did not work, thus in a universe where their God is not supreme there is no reason to think the Colt will be anything but a regular gun.

#38 Posted by Caionsouza (134 posts) - - Show Bio

Winchester stomps

#39 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@Caionsouza said:

Winchester stomps

by doing what? They have no prep, no access to special artifacts and no angels. The only weapon that became standard for them was Rubys knife. That knife doesn't even work on all demons and has never been shown to work on anything above low level demons of their universe, which means it's special properties along with those of the Colt (which is not standard) may not even work on anything that is not created by their universes God. These boys are gonna die quick and easy. The OP also said they take the place of the Ghostbusters. They were only able to banish Gozer (not kill it) by crossing the streams and closing the portal. How are Sam and Dean accomplishing this?

#40 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@isaac_clarke said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

That was never proven, that is just what people thought because of a statement Dean made, he came back better than before because before he was nearly human before he was blown up. He also said he was gonna get Heaven in order which made fans speculate he was archangel level, which we know not to be true as he posed no real threat to an archangel without gaining power beyond his station. Gozer, in his verse he is a god, it doesn't matter what they would classify him as in Supernatural, why would their classification usurp the one from his reality just because he is fight them now?

@isaac_clarke: I'm talking about Castiel period. He showed no signs of being any more powerful than he was before he was unplugged outside of absorbing new souls. That statement about being a wavelength does not prove that is not what all angels are. Are you saying it's exclusive to him because he is the only angel to say it in a show where he is the only one that even feels the need to explain things to humans? Nor does it suggest he had some greater level of power. All Sam , Dean and Bobby had to do to not be negatively affected by his flash was close their eyes.

Except you know: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORjKXAbp5ko&feature=related

  • Dean: "Cas are you God?"
  • Castiel: "That's a nice compliment, but no... but I do believe he brought me back." *Castiel turns and proceeds to walk towards Bobby*
  • Castiel: "New and Improved."

He then proceeds to casually resurrect Bobby - who given his contract would be burning in hell. The only other time we've seen an angel raise someone from the pit (in this case the same angel right here) the process took multiple angels and one of them personally air-lifting Dean out of there. This was a walk in the park.

  • Dean: "What are you going to do now?"
  • Castiel: "Return to Heave I suppose."
  • Dean: "Heaven?"
  • Castiel: "With Michael in the cage I'm sure it's total anarchy up there."
  • Dean: "So what? You're the new sheriff in town?"
  • Castiel: "Heh, I like that yeah. I suppose I am."

As far as we know he wasn't even connected to heaven yet - but he acknowledges an improvement in himself and this new authority he is clearly sporting. The fact he immediately goes to hell after and goes into Lucifer's cage grabbing what he could of Sam. Something his previous iteration from Season 4 would have not been capable of. As he describes it, he was arrogant, confident in his ability and it being an act of hubris. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-2TkdMqbnA&feature=related

Later in the same episode Raphael chose to simply display his dominance, rather than obliterate Cas with ease as he did at the end of season 4 suggests Cas could at the very least take the hit this time around. The fact he's trying to poke Castiel with a blade later in the season, souls or not, infers Cas is sporting a bit more power than he previously had.

Then there is season 8 where Castiel finally establishes himself as a Seraphim while in purgatory - something he wasn't before his death in season 5 - suggest there was indeed a change in his angelic status post resurrection - a big shift in power. Namely why he can smite multiple demons casually while being a fallen angel and fry the King of Hell without breaking a sweat if he liked.

Why would he go Stay puft in this battle when it is his humanoid form being used in this battle that Castiel can't just swoop into anyway?

It would be a potential scenario given Gozer couldn't do anything but go Stay Puff in the closest thing to a sequel we're ever going to get to Ghost Busters 2. Otherwise the avatar he is going to be related to something Dean or Sam think up (which given how much a movie buff Dean is, might be Stay Puff). If he wasn't in Purgatory I'd say that would be the very Cas thing to do if he saw a giant marshmellow man trying to crush his humans.

When he was trying to fight Alastrair it was during the beginning when Heaven had sent them specifically to help Dean stop the seals, the revelation that they wanted to the end to come was much later and was not always the plan. Zachs appearances before he was demoted and reinstated all have him telling Dean that the Apocalypse is to be stopped, then Heaven decides after all the seals except Lilith are broken that they want it to happen.

Fate works for Heaven in Supernatural, the Archangels made a number of statements where they mention they knew exactly what was going to go down right from the get-go (bar Dean resisting that final chance). Namely why Zachariah points out at the end of season 4 - more or less along the lines "you think we'd let 66 seals break on our watch without us wanting them to?" No matter how you slice it the Angels were following a script, sending the grunts out to fight to avoid rebellion (something that is also mentioned).

Quite literally - there is no way the Demons would have been able to break those seals if Heaven did not want them to - time traveling super powerful omniscient angels.

Crowley is still a low level demon compared to Alastair and Lilith his title is just a title, he doesn't have more powers only more authority because now he owns all souls in Hell, their power is based on age and eye color not titles. Meg would not have been a problem if he was so powerful, and he was afraid of her when he thought she was going to torture him because she learned directly from Alastair. He is still hurt by Holy water even as the King of Hell something that didn't work on even Yellow Eyes. Yellow Eyes was believed to be the most powerful because of his eyes and role but turns out Lilith was the top dog because she not only held rank but more power, due to being the first, demons are nothing but twisted ghost and it's pretty common knowledge that spirits get stronger the longer they are around and able to practice. The true form of angels period is destructive to the mortal plane it's not exclusive to Uriel or Castiel. Anna, a fallen angel was more powerful than Cas as her power did vaporize Alastairs meatsuit while Cas was powerless against him.

Crowley isn't a standard King of the Cross Roads - minus those red eyes - he's a giant floating gas of red smoke that has access to a large supply of souls. The entire point of the purgatory arc was so he could also get said souls to amp his powers. To establish himself without question as King of Hell. The holy water portion didn't make sense, admittedly, but bad writing happens sometimes. Plus holy water hurt Alister too.

Not that any of this matters the OP does not give them the option to call in Cas, so they die!

Which is fair, but Cas would still smoke Gozer.

How can we not infer that he was not plugged into Heaven when God was the one that brought him back though? He wasn't the same kind of fallen angel he was before, because there was no authority in Heaven to unplug him the second time. Zach was a seraph too but when demoted by Michael he just not all that tough. There was nothing to suggest other than his arrogance that Zach knew anything outside of what Michael told him as far as the plan. It could have been he could take Sam out of the cage for the same reason Dean could get out of Purgatory, bodies are not supposed to be there, hell is a place for souls. Lucifer was not physically torturing Sams body only his soul, so the body would not have mattered when it came to the cage. Even the fairies claimed they could get that soul out of the cage and scoffed at angelic powers.

You could argue it either way to be honest, but given his other resurrections (S5E1, S7E17) all of which he was right from the start a fallen angel / disconnected from Heaven - the argument is certainly more slanted in the favor he didn't have a direct line to heaven; the fact he was still a miracle faith healer (S7E17) when he wasn't even aware he was an angel (any sort of healing in season 5 was beyond his ability S5E1) or his ability to transfer Sam's madness / soul damage to himself - he still had the power to do some nifty things that Season 4 Cas wasn't probably capable of even while connected to Heaven.

Zachariah wasn't demoted from what kind of angelic power he was and Michael is significantly more powerful than Raphael and everything else short of Death, God and Lucifer. Why would Michael to lie to Zachariah? Zachariah had absolutely no issues with starting the Apocalypse and the entirety of his appearances with Dean implies he is fully aware of "the plan" - if not an active participant from the start given the changes Dean's call (S4E22) to prompt Sam into killing Lilith with those demon powers.

We don't know how Dean exactly left Purgatory (that is in all likelihood next episode) outside Benny's info that says humans can simply stroll out. And said cage is without issue holding two of the most powerful beings in creation - who are very much not spirits / souls. The fact you didn't have souless Sam stroll out of hell on his lonesome (Castiel had to go to hell, sweep into the cage and grab what he assumed to be all of Sam - apparently too fast to notice until it was too late the missing piece).

Fairies / the Leprechaun rationalized their claimed ability to retrieve Sam's soul because of their being from another reality / plane, but nonetheless it was still just a claim and said beings are can't even stop themselves from counting individual grains of salt when tossed in-front of them; Michael was Molitofed in holy fire and that was just a momentary break to recover. Those little folks don't hold much of a candle to Archangels or any angels for that matter.

In this scenario it's unlikely Gozer would take on the form of Stay Puft because they are not Ray and that image was snatched from his mind.

Given Gozer didn't even have a choice in the game, it doesn't seem all that unlikely. Any other form, likely far more manageable ones, might give the brothers a good chance to do this on their own.

The same time traveling super powerful angels were not omniscient at all, as they did not know how the story would end, Gabriel implied that he traveled in time and saw the end result and he was wrong. Without an archangel Heaven couldn't even protect Kevin. Raphael had no idea what Castiel was up to until Crowley told him even though Cas came up with the whole unsink the Titantic plan which went unnoticed by everybody except Fate. Gabriel, Balthazar, Anna and the cambion all hid from Heaven, the first two did for centuries, even Dean and Sam were hidden from them with sigils so they are far from omniscient.

You not only had instances where Zachariah flung Dean casually into the future (S5E4) but a number where the Archangels had a very clear perception of what was going to happen (Gabriel claims they've known since creation (S5E8) Lucifer was well aware Sam would say yes to him (S5E3), Michael again points out the lesson in season 4 that it's all planned (S5E18). The only reason we didn't see the same future described by Gabriel (S5E19) is the fact he changed it, he never stood up to Lucifer and he never told Sam and Dean about the rings, something that remained consistent throughout the series, that angels could change fate (Cas does it a few times for sure).

They didn't only know the future - they actively manipulated events to lead to said futures (the Cherub S5E14). Not going to bother mentioning how the fates are more or less working for Heaven.

Yes Alastair was hurt by holy water but he was also trapped in a enochian version of the Devils trap and even vulnerable to salt which was supposed to not do much to the big leagues. The traps render them powerless, I'm betting the angelic one was a super charged version because outside of it he proved able to over power angels.

What demons have been invulnerable to salt's purifying power? The only demon thus far to stand up to holy water without effect has been Yellow Eyes. Powerless doesn't mean he suddenly gains all the same demonic weaknesses he had before. It rendered him powerless to do anything while trapped inside, it didn't have any effect outside that. The only angel he could 'over power' was Cas and that was predominately due to Cas being unable to angel smite him with a touch - which doesn't seem to make much sense - namely the theory Heaven pulled Cas' plug during that moment.

Him being red smoke makes no sense especially when Sam explained that demons are created by burning the humanity away until there was nothing but black smoke.

Sam was more so pointing out what happens if tiger-mom has her soul removed and sent to hell for Crowley to demonicify it through torture. The fact Crowley is sporting an entirely different pair of red eyes than a normal cross roads demon and a unique red smoke aura altogether is just to point out Crowley is no ordinary demon anymore with the power he has access to as King of Hell.

You do have valid points and I thinks it's a matter of how we see the scenes. Castiel never struck me as being anymore powerful than he was based on him and angels having next to no feats at first and most of what we know about what angels can do coming from what he saw him do, seemed pretty standard to me. He said he could bury Crowley because he was still an angel which is a very general statement IMO about the power of his species as a whole. This was fun....Winchesters die horribly lol.

Within the first few moments of Castiel's appearance in season 4 - he proves himself invulnerable to virtually every tool the Winchesters / Bobby had (sort of the colt since it was missing). He wasn't even stronger than Uriel and not even close to Anna till his first resurrection. Zachariah was warping Sam and Dean for kicks, taking out their lungs, giving them stage 4 stomach cancer and what have you - Castiel in a similar manner after becoming a Seraph was playing with souls and outright stopping time (which thus far we haven't seen quite any angels at his level - the best they can do is surprise attack him with an angel blade). Bar the silly species advantage Leviathan have on angels, Castiel is as of now likely the third most powerful player in the Supernatural universe.

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

Winchesters win due to PIS powers. Knowing them, they would somehow remember something in Bobby's/Their Dad's journals which explains how to defeat it, and to our amazement they would have what they need on hand.

The journal lost relevance after season 2 and Bobby's stuff is all gone for the most part; Garth's the new Bobby. It's more likely Sam would pull out some research miracles of his own, either devising a spell or a simple method of outright killing / banishing Gozer that after a rough fight they would implement. And given how much of a dolt Gozer was it wouldn't surprise me at all if they could pull that off after whatever form Gozer takes on upon scanning their minds (assuming it's not stay puff).

#41 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@isaac_clarke said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

That was never proven, that is just what people thought because of a statement Dean made, he came back better than before because before he was nearly human before he was blown up. He also said he was gonna get Heaven in order which made fans speculate he was archangel level, which we know not to be true as he posed no real threat to an archangel without gaining power beyond his station. Gozer, in his verse he is a god, it doesn't matter what they would classify him as in Supernatural, why would their classification usurp the one from his reality just because he is fight them now?

@isaac_clarke: I'm talking about Castiel period. He showed no signs of being any more powerful than he was before he was unplugged outside of absorbing new souls. That statement about being a wavelength does not prove that is not what all angels are. Are you saying it's exclusive to him because he is the only angel to say it in a show where he is the only one that even feels the need to explain things to humans? Nor does it suggest he had some greater level of power. All Sam , Dean and Bobby had to do to not be negatively affected by his flash was close their eyes.

Except you know: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORjKXAbp5ko&feature=related

  • Dean: "Cas are you God?"
  • Castiel: "That's a nice compliment, but no... but I do believe he brought me back." *Castiel turns and proceeds to walk towards Bobby*
  • Castiel: "New and Improved."

He then proceeds to casually resurrect Bobby - who given his contract would be burning in hell. The only other time we've seen an angel raise someone from the pit (in this case the same angel right here) the process took multiple angels and one of them personally air-lifting Dean out of there. This was a walk in the park.

  • Dean: "What are you going to do now?"
  • Castiel: "Return to Heave I suppose."
  • Dean: "Heaven?"
  • Castiel: "With Michael in the cage I'm sure it's total anarchy up there."
  • Dean: "So what? You're the new sheriff in town?"
  • Castiel: "Heh, I like that yeah. I suppose I am."

As far as we know he wasn't even connected to heaven yet - but he acknowledges an improvement in himself and this new authority he is clearly sporting. The fact he immediately goes to hell after and goes into Lucifer's cage grabbing what he could of Sam. Something his previous iteration from Season 4 would have not been capable of. As he describes it, he was arrogant, confident in his ability and it being an act of hubris. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-2TkdMqbnA&feature=related

Later in the same episode Raphael chose to simply display his dominance, rather than obliterate Cas with ease as he did at the end of season 4 suggests Cas could at the very least take the hit this time around. The fact he's trying to poke Castiel with a blade later in the season, souls or not, infers Cas is sporting a bit more power than he previously had.

Then there is season 8 where Castiel finally establishes himself as a Seraphim while in purgatory - something he wasn't before his death in season 5 - suggest there was indeed a change in his angelic status post resurrection - a big shift in power. Namely why he can smite multiple demons casually while being a fallen angel and fry the King of Hell without breaking a sweat if he liked.

Why would he go Stay puft in this battle when it is his humanoid form being used in this battle that Castiel can't just swoop into anyway?

It would be a potential scenario given Gozer couldn't do anything but go Stay Puff in the closest thing to a sequel we're ever going to get to Ghost Busters 2. Otherwise the avatar he is going to be related to something Dean or Sam think up (which given how much a movie buff Dean is, might be Stay Puff). If he wasn't in Purgatory I'd say that would be the very Cas thing to do if he saw a giant marshmellow man trying to crush his humans.

When he was trying to fight Alastrair it was during the beginning when Heaven had sent them specifically to help Dean stop the seals, the revelation that they wanted to the end to come was much later and was not always the plan. Zachs appearances before he was demoted and reinstated all have him telling Dean that the Apocalypse is to be stopped, then Heaven decides after all the seals except Lilith are broken that they want it to happen.

Fate works for Heaven in Supernatural, the Archangels made a number of statements where they mention they knew exactly what was going to go down right from the get-go (bar Dean resisting that final chance). Namely why Zachariah points out at the end of season 4 - more or less along the lines "you think we'd let 66 seals break on our watch without us wanting them to?" No matter how you slice it the Angels were following a script, sending the grunts out to fight to avoid rebellion (something that is also mentioned).

Quite literally - there is no way the Demons would have been able to break those seals if Heaven did not want them to - time traveling super powerful omniscient angels.

Crowley is still a low level demon compared to Alastair and Lilith his title is just a title, he doesn't have more powers only more authority because now he owns all souls in Hell, their power is based on age and eye color not titles. Meg would not have been a problem if he was so powerful, and he was afraid of her when he thought she was going to torture him because she learned directly from Alastair. He is still hurt by Holy water even as the King of Hell something that didn't work on even Yellow Eyes. Yellow Eyes was believed to be the most powerful because of his eyes and role but turns out Lilith was the top dog because she not only held rank but more power, due to being the first, demons are nothing but twisted ghost and it's pretty common knowledge that spirits get stronger the longer they are around and able to practice. The true form of angels period is destructive to the mortal plane it's not exclusive to Uriel or Castiel. Anna, a fallen angel was more powerful than Cas as her power did vaporize Alastairs meatsuit while Cas was powerless against him.

Crowley isn't a standard King of the Cross Roads - minus those red eyes - he's a giant floating gas of red smoke that has access to a large supply of souls. The entire point of the purgatory arc was so he could also get said souls to amp his powers. To establish himself without question as King of Hell. The holy water portion didn't make sense, admittedly, but bad writing happens sometimes. Plus holy water hurt Alister too.

Not that any of this matters the OP does not give them the option to call in Cas, so they die!

Which is fair, but Cas would still smoke Gozer.

How can we not infer that he was not plugged into Heaven when God was the one that brought him back though? He wasn't the same kind of fallen angel he was before, because there was no authority in Heaven to unplug him the second time. Zach was a seraph too but when demoted by Michael he just not all that tough. There was nothing to suggest other than his arrogance that Zach knew anything outside of what Michael told him as far as the plan. It could have been he could take Sam out of the cage for the same reason Dean could get out of Purgatory, bodies are not supposed to be there, hell is a place for souls. Lucifer was not physically torturing Sams body only his soul, so the body would not have mattered when it came to the cage. Even the fairies claimed they could get that soul out of the cage and scoffed at angelic powers.

You could argue it either way to be honest,

Then I'll argue it my way

#42 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@isaac_clarke said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@isaac_clarke said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

That was never proven, that is just what people thought because of a statement Dean made, he came back better than before because before he was nearly human before he was blown up. He also said he was gonna get Heaven in order which made fans speculate he was archangel level, which we know not to be true as he posed no real threat to an archangel without gaining power beyond his station. Gozer, in his verse he is a god, it doesn't matter what they would classify him as in Supernatural, why would their classification usurp the one from his reality just because he is fight them now?

@isaac_clarke: I'm talking about Castiel period. He showed no signs of being any more powerful than he was before he was unplugged outside of absorbing new souls. That statement about being a wavelength does not prove that is not what all angels are. Are you saying it's exclusive to him because he is the only angel to say it in a show where he is the only one that even feels the need to explain things to humans? Nor does it suggest he had some greater level of power. All Sam , Dean and Bobby had to do to not be negatively affected by his flash was close their eyes.

Except you know: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORjKXAbp5ko&feature=related

  • Dean: "Cas are you God?"
  • Castiel: "That's a nice compliment, but no... but I do believe he brought me back." *Castiel turns and proceeds to walk towards Bobby*
  • Castiel: "New and Improved."

He then proceeds to casually resurrect Bobby - who given his contract would be burning in hell. The only other time we've seen an angel raise someone from the pit (in this case the same angel right here) the process took multiple angels and one of them personally air-lifting Dean out of there. This was a walk in the park.

  • Dean: "What are you going to do now?"
  • Castiel: "Return to Heave I suppose."
  • Dean: "Heaven?"
  • Castiel: "With Michael in the cage I'm sure it's total anarchy up there."
  • Dean: "So what? You're the new sheriff in town?"
  • Castiel: "Heh, I like that yeah. I suppose I am."

As far as we know he wasn't even connected to heaven yet - but he acknowledges an improvement in himself and this new authority he is clearly sporting. The fact he immediately goes to hell after and goes into Lucifer's cage grabbing what he could of Sam. Something his previous iteration from Season 4 would have not been capable of. As he describes it, he was arrogant, confident in his ability and it being an act of hubris. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-2TkdMqbnA&feature=related

Later in the same episode Raphael chose to simply display his dominance, rather than obliterate Cas with ease as he did at the end of season 4 suggests Cas could at the very least take the hit this time around. The fact he's trying to poke Castiel with a blade later in the season, souls or not, infers Cas is sporting a bit more power than he previously had.

Then there is season 8 where Castiel finally establishes himself as a Seraphim while in purgatory - something he wasn't before his death in season 5 - suggest there was indeed a change in his angelic status post resurrection - a big shift in power. Namely why he can smite multiple demons casually while being a fallen angel and fry the King of Hell without breaking a sweat if he liked.

Why would he go Stay puft in this battle when it is his humanoid form being used in this battle that Castiel can't just swoop into anyway?

It would be a potential scenario given Gozer couldn't do anything but go Stay Puff in the closest thing to a sequel we're ever going to get to Ghost Busters 2. Otherwise the avatar he is going to be related to something Dean or Sam think up (which given how much a movie buff Dean is, might be Stay Puff). If he wasn't in Purgatory I'd say that would be the very Cas thing to do if he saw a giant marshmellow man trying to crush his humans.

When he was trying to fight Alastrair it was during the beginning when Heaven had sent them specifically to help Dean stop the seals, the revelation that they wanted to the end to come was much later and was not always the plan. Zachs appearances before he was demoted and reinstated all have him telling Dean that the Apocalypse is to be stopped, then Heaven decides after all the seals except Lilith are broken that they want it to happen.

Fate works for Heaven in Supernatural, the Archangels made a number of statements where they mention they knew exactly what was going to go down right from the get-go (bar Dean resisting that final chance). Namely why Zachariah points out at the end of season 4 - more or less along the lines "you think we'd let 66 seals break on our watch without us wanting them to?" No matter how you slice it the Angels were following a script, sending the grunts out to fight to avoid rebellion (something that is also mentioned).

Quite literally - there is no way the Demons would have been able to break those seals if Heaven did not want them to - time traveling super powerful omniscient angels.

Crowley is still a low level demon compared to Alastair and Lilith his title is just a title, he doesn't have more powers only more authority because now he owns all souls in Hell, their power is based on age and eye color not titles. Meg would not have been a problem if he was so powerful, and he was afraid of her when he thought she was going to torture him because she learned directly from Alastair. He is still hurt by Holy water even as the King of Hell something that didn't work on even Yellow Eyes. Yellow Eyes was believed to be the most powerful because of his eyes and role but turns out Lilith was the top dog because she not only held rank but more power, due to being the first, demons are nothing but twisted ghost and it's pretty common knowledge that spirits get stronger the longer they are around and able to practice. The true form of angels period is destructive to the mortal plane it's not exclusive to Uriel or Castiel. Anna, a fallen angel was more powerful than Cas as her power did vaporize Alastairs meatsuit while Cas was powerless against him.

Crowley isn't a standard King of the Cross Roads - minus those red eyes - he's a giant floating gas of red smoke that has access to a large supply of souls. The entire point of the purgatory arc was so he could also get said souls to amp his powers. To establish himself without question as King of Hell. The holy water portion didn't make sense, admittedly, but bad writing happens sometimes. Plus holy water hurt Alister too.

Not that any of this matters the OP does not give them the option to call in Cas, so they die!

Which is fair, but Cas would still smoke Gozer.

How can we not infer that he was not plugged into Heaven when God was the one that brought him back though? He wasn't the same kind of fallen angel he was before, because there was no authority in Heaven to unplug him the second time. Zach was a seraph too but when demoted by Michael he just not all that tough. There was nothing to suggest other than his arrogance that Zach knew anything outside of what Michael told him as far as the plan. It could have been he could take Sam out of the cage for the same reason Dean could get out of Purgatory, bodies are not supposed to be there, hell is a place for souls. Lucifer was not physically torturing Sams body only his soul, so the body would not have mattered when it came to the cage. Even the fairies claimed they could get that soul out of the cage and scoffed at angelic powers.

You could argue it either way to be honest,

Then I'll argue it my way

The main problem is, your way doesn't have anything to argue with outside the lack of anything specifically states whether he was connected or not connected to heaven. Given the previous and post resurrections didn't do anything to remove that fallen angel status and the lack of any real distinguishing loss of power as a Seraph connected / severed from Heaven - it again isn't much of an argument to work with.

@isaac_clarke said:

You could argue it either way to be honest, but given his other resurrections (S5E1, S7E17) all of which he was right from the start a fallen angel / disconnected from Heaven - the argument is certainly more slanted in the favor he didn't have a direct line to heaven; the fact he was still a miracle faith healer (S7E17) when he wasn't even aware he was an angel (any sort of healing in season 5 was beyond his ability S5E1) or his ability to transfer Sam's madness / soul damage to himself - he still had the power to do some nifty things that Season 4 Cas wasn't probably capable of even while connected to Heaven.

Zachariah wasn't demoted from what kind of angelic power he was and Michael is significantly more powerful than Raphael and everything else short of Death, God and Lucifer. Why would Michael to lie to Zachariah? Zachariah had absolutely no issues with starting the Apocalypse and the entirety of his appearances with Dean implies he is fully aware of "the plan" - if not an active participant from the start given the changes Dean's call (S4E22) to prompt Sam into killing Lilith with those demon powers.

We don't know how Dean exactly left Purgatory (that is in all likelihood next episode) outside Benny's info that says humans can simply stroll out. And said cage is without issue holding two of the most powerful beings in creation - who are very much not spirits / souls. The fact you didn't have souless Sam stroll out of hell on his lonesome (Castiel had to go to hell, sweep into the cage and grab what he assumed to be all of Sam - apparently too fast to notice until it was too late the missing piece).

Fairies / the Leprechaun rationalized their claimed ability to retrieve Sam's soul because of their being from another reality / plane, but nonetheless it was still just a claim and said beings are can't even stop themselves from counting individual grains of salt when tossed in-front of them; Michael was Molitofed in holy fire and that was just a momentary break to recover. Those little folks don't hold much of a candle to Archangels or any angels for that matter.

In this scenario it's unlikely Gozer would take on the form of Stay Puft because they are not Ray and that image was snatched from his mind.

Given Gozer didn't even have a choice in the game, it doesn't seem all that unlikely. Any other form, likely far more manageable ones, might give the brothers a good chance to do this on their own.

The same time traveling super powerful angels were not omniscient at all, as they did not know how the story would end, Gabriel implied that he traveled in time and saw the end result and he was wrong. Without an archangel Heaven couldn't even protect Kevin. Raphael had no idea what Castiel was up to until Crowley told him even though Cas came up with the whole unsink the Titantic plan which went unnoticed by everybody except Fate. Gabriel, Balthazar, Anna and the cambion all hid from Heaven, the first two did for centuries, even Dean and Sam were hidden from them with sigils so they are far from omniscient.

You not only had instances where Zachariah flung Dean casually into the future (S5E4) but a number where the Archangels had a very clear perception of what was going to happen (Gabriel claims they've known since creation (S5E8) Lucifer was well aware Sam would say yes to him (S5E3), Michael again points out the lesson in season 4 that it's all planned (S5E18). The only reason we didn't see the same future described by Gabriel (S5E19) is the fact he changed it, he never stood up to Lucifer and he never told Sam and Dean about the rings, something that remained consistent throughout the series, that angels could change fate (Cas does it a few times for sure).

They didn't only know the future - they actively manipulated events to lead to said futures (the Cherub S5E14). Not going to bother mentioning how the fates are more or less working for Heaven.

Yes Alastair was hurt by holy water but he was also trapped in a enochian version of the Devils trap and even vulnerable to salt which was supposed to not do much to the big leagues. The traps render them powerless, I'm betting the angelic one was a super charged version because outside of it he proved able to over power angels.

What demons have been invulnerable to salt's purifying power? The only demon thus far to stand up to holy water without effect has been Yellow Eyes. Powerless doesn't mean he suddenly gains all the same demonic weaknesses he had before. It rendered him powerless to do anything while trapped inside, it didn't have any effect outside that. The only angel he could 'over power' was Cas and that was predominately due to Cas being unable to angel smite him with a touch - which doesn't seem to make much sense - namely the theory Heaven pulled Cas' plug during that moment.

Him being red smoke makes no sense especially when Sam explained that demons are created by burning the humanity away until there was nothing but black smoke.

Sam was more so pointing out what happens if tiger-mom has her soul removed and sent to hell for Crowley to demonicify it through torture. The fact Crowley is sporting an entirely different pair of red eyes than a normal cross roads demon and a unique red smoke aura altogether is just to point out Crowley is no ordinary demon anymore with the power he has access to as King of Hell.

You do have valid points and I thinks it's a matter of how we see the scenes. Castiel never struck me as being anymore powerful than he was based on him and angels having next to no feats at first and most of what we know about what angels can do coming from what he saw him do, seemed pretty standard to me. He said he could bury Crowley because he was still an angel which is a very general statement IMO about the power of his species as a whole. This was fun....Winchesters die horribly lol.

Within the first few moments of Castiel's appearance in season 4 - he proves himself invulnerable to virtually every tool the Winchesters / Bobby had (sort of the colt since it was missing). He wasn't even stronger than Uriel and not even close to Anna till his first resurrection. Zachariah was warping Sam and Dean for kicks, taking out their lungs, giving them stage 4 stomach cancer and what have you - Castiel in a similar manner after becoming a Seraph was playing with souls and outright stopping time (which thus far we haven't seen quite any angels at his level - the best they can do is surprise attack him with an angel blade). Bar the silly species advantage Leviathan have on angels, Castiel is as of now likely the third most powerful player in the Supernatural universe.

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

Winchesters win due to PIS powers. Knowing them, they would somehow remember something in Bobby's/Their Dad's journals which explains how to defeat it, and to our amazement they would have what they need on hand.

The journal lost relevance after season 2 and Bobby's stuff is all gone for the most part; Garth's the new Bobby. It's more likely Sam would pull out some research miracles of his own, either devising a spell or a simple method of outright killing / banishing Gozer that after a rough fight they would implement. And given how much of a dolt Gozer was it wouldn't surprise me at all if they could pull that off after whatever form Gozer takes on upon scanning their minds (assuming it's not stay puff).

#43 Posted by cliffrice (1015 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

Dean says one word and Castiel flies down from heaven to smite Gozer

Or stays hidden because there may be Leviathan looking for him.

Quick smite then flies back into hiding.

they can't call him in anyway and IMO he doesn't strike me as being powerful enough to smite Gozer without extra souls feeding him. He has only successfully done this to monsters and low level demons, he couldn't even beat Alastair while plugged into Heaven. Alastair has not shown anything to suggest he is as powerful as Gozer.

what are gozers feats?

#44 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@cliffrice said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

Dean says one word and Castiel flies down from heaven to smite Gozer

Or stays hidden because there may be Leviathan looking for him.

Quick smite then flies back into hiding.

they can't call him in anyway and IMO he doesn't strike me as being powerful enough to smite Gozer without extra souls feeding him. He has only successfully done this to monsters and low level demons, he couldn't even beat Alastair while plugged into Heaven. Alastair has not shown anything to suggest he is as powerful as Gozer.

what are gozers feats?

inhuman speed and agility, telepathy, causing citywide supernatural activity. earthquake creation, interdimensional travel, some weather manipulation, omnimorph, energy blasts and nigh indestructible as even in marshmallow form it was not destroyed by concentrated fire from 4 proton packs only annoyed.

#45 Posted by ComocYahweh (661 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@cliffrice said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

Dean says one word and Castiel flies down from heaven to smite Gozer

Or stays hidden because there may be Leviathan looking for him.

Quick smite then flies back into hiding.

they can't call him in anyway and IMO he doesn't strike me as being powerful enough to smite Gozer without extra souls feeding him. He has only successfully done this to monsters and low level demons, he couldn't even beat Alastair while plugged into Heaven. Alastair has not shown anything to suggest he is as powerful as Gozer.

what are gozers feats?

inhuman speed and agility, telepathy, causing citywide supernatural activity. earthquake creation, interdimensional travel, some weather manipulation, omnimorph, energy blasts and nigh indestructible as even in marshmallow form it was not destroyed by concentrated fire from 4 proton packs only annoyed.

nothing low lvl angels can't do, Winchesters will just ask if they can borrow Castiels sword, then they kill Gozer with it.

#46 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@cliffrice said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

Dean says one word and Castiel flies down from heaven to smite Gozer

Or stays hidden because there may be Leviathan looking for him.

Quick smite then flies back into hiding.

they can't call him in anyway and IMO he doesn't strike me as being powerful enough to smite Gozer without extra souls feeding him. He has only successfully done this to monsters and low level demons, he couldn't even beat Alastair while plugged into Heaven. Alastair has not shown anything to suggest he is as powerful as Gozer.

what are gozers feats?

inhuman speed and agility, telepathy, causing citywide supernatural activity. earthquake creation, interdimensional travel, some weather manipulation, omnimorph, energy blasts and nigh indestructible as even in marshmallow form it was not destroyed by concentrated fire from 4 proton packs only annoyed.

nothing low lvl angels can't do, Winchesters will just ask if they can borrow Castiels sword, then they kill Gozer with it.

No they won't because they can't. You keep saying they win, but the only way you seem to be able to come up with ways is to ignore the OP. They don''t have the speed to even touch Gozer, the same Gozer that dodged blasts from the proton packs.

#47 Posted by ComocYahweh (661 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@cliffrice said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

Dean says one word and Castiel flies down from heaven to smite Gozer

Or stays hidden because there may be Leviathan looking for him.

Quick smite then flies back into hiding.

they can't call him in anyway and IMO he doesn't strike me as being powerful enough to smite Gozer without extra souls feeding him. He has only successfully done this to monsters and low level demons, he couldn't even beat Alastair while plugged into Heaven. Alastair has not shown anything to suggest he is as powerful as Gozer.

what are gozers feats?

inhuman speed and agility, telepathy, causing citywide supernatural activity. earthquake creation, interdimensional travel, some weather manipulation, omnimorph, energy blasts and nigh indestructible as even in marshmallow form it was not destroyed by concentrated fire from 4 proton packs only annoyed.

nothing low lvl angels can't do, Winchesters will just ask if they can borrow Castiels sword, then they kill Gozer with it.

No they won't because they can't. You keep saying they win, but the only way you seem to be able to come up with ways is to ignore the OP. They don''t have the speed to even touch Gozer, the same Gozer that dodged blasts from the proton packs.

They have already fought and defeated stronger enemies, they casually take out demons who would whoop Gozers ass, they won't have a problem with him.

#48 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@cliffrice said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@ComocYahweh said:

Dean says one word and Castiel flies down from heaven to smite Gozer

Or stays hidden because there may be Leviathan looking for him.

Quick smite then flies back into hiding.

they can't call him in anyway and IMO he doesn't strike me as being powerful enough to smite Gozer without extra souls feeding him. He has only successfully done this to monsters and low level demons, he couldn't even beat Alastair while plugged into Heaven. Alastair has not shown anything to suggest he is as powerful as Gozer.

what are gozers feats?

inhuman speed and agility, telepathy, causing citywide supernatural activity. earthquake creation, interdimensional travel, some weather manipulation, omnimorph, energy blasts and nigh indestructible as even in marshmallow form it was not destroyed by concentrated fire from 4 proton packs only annoyed.

nothing low lvl angels can't do, Winchesters will just ask if they can borrow Castiels sword, then they kill Gozer with it.

No they won't because they can't. You keep saying they win, but the only way you seem to be able to come up with ways is to ignore the OP. They don''t have the speed to even touch Gozer, the same Gozer that dodged blasts from the proton packs.

They have already fought and defeated stronger enemies, they casually take out demons who would whoop Gozers ass, they won't have a problem with him.

What demons are stronger than Gozer? What feats are you basing this on? What enemies are stronger than Gozer? Gozer can blast them off the building which would have happened to the Ghostbuster if the plot didn't call for them to survive. You are not making very good points, without the plot to protect them and the fact that the show is about them, they would have been dead years ago.

#49 Posted by RoyHarperBLOW (1495 posts) - - Show Bio

@Bo88gdan said:

Winchesters FTW

#50 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@RoyHarperBLOW said:

@Bo88gdan said:

Winchesters FTW

How? If all you got is they killed angels and demons than you need more, because they need special equipment and for those beings to forget that they are telekinetic and can read minds to do those things, they have nothing to deal with the speed at which Gozer can dodge their attacks which require close combat. Gozer blasts them and they fall to their dooms.