#1 Edited by laflux (17493 posts) - - Show Bio

What if Spider-Man, Wolverine, Gorgon

Midnighter, Backlash, Zealot

Rounds and Rules

Half Gen Backlash, Pre-New 52 DC characters.

Midnighter Has Bo Staff, throwing stars, and Grenade level explosive bombs. He also has doors and Battle Computer unless stated but can use doors for transportation of him and his team.

Slayton has standard gear unless stated.

Gorgon has Grass-cutter, Telepathy and Stone gaze unless stated.

Wolverine is fighting at manifest destiny levels and has Claws fortified with Kusar Blade material.

Zealot has Kusar Blades (assume Logan's claws, Gorgon sword and Zealot's blade can't cut through eachother)

Round One.

Round Two- No Webbing for Spider-Man and no Stone Gaze/Telepathy for Gorgon.

Round Three- No Misting for Backlash, No Doors for Midnighter.

Round Four- Conditions of Round Two and Three combined.

All combatants are fighting to their best.

Arena

Begin 50 feet away visible.

#2 Edited by laflux (17493 posts) - - Show Bio
#3 Edited by dondave (38780 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

What if Spider-Man, Wolverine, Gorgon

Midnighter, Backlash, Zealot

Rounds and Rules

Half Gen Backlash, Pre-New 52 DC characters.

Midnighter Has Bo Staff, throwing stars, and Grenade level explosive bombs. He also has doors and Battle Computer unless stated but can use doors for transportation of him and his team.

Slayton has standard gear unless stated.

Gorgon has Grass-cutter, Telepathy and Stone gaze unless stated.

Wolverine is fighting at manifest destiny levels and has Claws fortified with Kusar Blade material.

Zealot has Kusar Blades (assume Logan's claws, Gorgon sword and Zealot's blade can't cut through eachother)

Round One.

Round Two- No Webbing for Spider-Man and no Stone Gaze/Telepathy for Gorgon.

Round Three- No Misting for Backlash, No Doors or Battle Computer for Midnighter.

Round Four- Conditions of Round Two and Three combined.

All combatants are fighting to their best.

Arena

Begin 50 feet away visible.

This limits the effectiveness of Midnighter against Spider-Man

#4 Posted by laflux (17493 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: I don't it think its that bad, as Spider-Man was likewise limited in the second round as was Gorgon. Besides, Midnighter is an accomplished Martial Artist without the Computer, and still maintains his abilites to see weak points in a persons body. And he still has his stats.

#5 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

Backlash's Psi-Whips can be a difference-maker against Team Marvel's healing factors, which is a bonus. Initial thoughts are that Gorgon can take Backlash without the Psi-Whips, but with them I'm not so sure. Stone stare could net Tomi a victory or two out of 10, and his damage soak is absurd, but the whips can bypass his durability and Backlash shouldn't be outclassed by his speed. I can see both sides winning, so I'll say even split for now.

I'm leaning towards Wolverine over Zealot, largely because of better damage soak. Both have extremely high-tier skill and roughly equal weaponry, but Wolverine has much better healing. Do we assume that Wolverine's bones are able to block the Kusar blades, same as his claws? If so, I see him taking a couple more matches than Zealot because he's really hard to put down. If she can cut through his bones she can take him down via decap and removing limbs, but he can do the same to her, and he can shrug off non-lethal cuts more quickly.

Midnighter might eventually be able to take down Spidey if he can create a situation where Spidey is trapped far enough out that his precog won't be able to see it in time to escape, but it would take long enough for either of them to win that I see their fight being decided by the assistance of teammates sooner than one can kill the other. Does Midnighter have the sheer strength to tear through webbing? I suppose he could just door out of an incap like Blink has done in the past, though, so it doesn't much matter.

So I guess I'm thinking:

Round 1: Spidey stalemates with Middy, Backlash and Gorgon split, and Wolverine takes a slim majority over Zealot.Slim majority to Marvel.

Round 2: I don't see webbing making a huge difference since Middy can avoid/Door out of it, but it's still one less advantage for Spidey. Stone Stare won't beat Backlash often, but without it I would lean towards Backlash maybe 55/100. Even slimmer majority to Wildstorm.

Round 3: Without his Computer, I don't think Midnighter will be able to get past the broken level of Spidey's precog, and no misting makes Backlash's lack of a powerful healing factor more of an issue. Marvel for a solid majority.

Round 4: I would put the Battle Computer as the only huge difference-maker here. I know Midnighter has performed well without it, but he relies on it a lot more than Backlash on Misting or Gorgon on Stone Stare. Webbing shouldn't be a big deal against team Wildstorm anyway, so I don't think it's a huge loss for Spidey. Smaller majority to Marvel.

So on the whole, I'm picking Marvel for a majority, although I'm probably overlooking things for both teams.

#6 Edited by Strider92 (16758 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: OH SNAP!

Round 1: This is really hard to call. Midnighter Vs What If? Spider-man has been debated to death and the general consensus is that its anyone's game so Middy and Spidey will most likely be locked in the most drawn out fight here. By the way the op is placed i'm guessing Logan doesn't have a full adamantium skeleton and only Kusar on his claws? If thats the case I would tend to lean towards Zealot. Backlash Vs Gorgon is a toss up again depending how far he pushes Slayton. Helf-Gen Bl has unlimited misting so thats going to negate a lot of Gorgons strikes. the main problem with Gorgon here is his telepathy which contrary to a normal fight actually impedes him here. Backlash has the ability to fry the mind of anyone who tries to use any form of telepathy meaning that as soon as Gorgon goes to use telepathy he's gonna get fried. This is going to leave him vulnerable in a fight that he can't afford to be vulnerable in. Thus i'm leaning towards Team Wildstorm as Zealot and Backlash should both take a very small majority over their opponents. This will mean one of the 1v1 fights will soon become 2v1 shifting the advantage.

-Wildstorm wins

Round 2: The no webbing is going to hinder Spider-man undoubtedly. Not being able to disarm Middy mean's he has less chance of winning but he still overwhelms Middy stat-wise so he should be able to hold his own. In this case Gorgon actually has much more of a chance of beating Backlash as he won't use his telepathy thus won't get mind-fried. If Gorgon goes in hard and fast he can take this but if he doesn't Slayton will see what kind of a threat Gorgon is and most likely pull an "Alien" on him. The same goes for Backlash if he goes in hard and fast he can win but if he doesn't Gorgon's speed is going to prove too much. Honestly the Gorgon Vs BL fight here could go either way I want to say BL due to a combo of unlimited misting and fanboyism but it honestly is anyone's game. these two things don't effect the Wolverine Vs Zealot fight air-go she has the best chance of wining. This fight is very very close. I'm going to say a draw and ignore my Backlash fanboyism!

-Draw

Round 3: This round definitely goes to team Marvel. Midnighter losing his battle computer puts him at a severe disadvantage against Spidey. I would bet that even normal Pete could take Middy without his battle computer. Backlash without his misting won't be taking a majority against Gorgon (the fan-rage is screaming) Gorgon will react to quickly and BL won't have any misting to save him if he can't keep up. Backlash might get in a lucky hit if Gorgon's brain gets fried though. If this was No-gen factor Backlash it may go differently due to the power of his psi-whips being stupidly OPed but Half-Gen factor won't have the damage out-put necessary to put Gorgon down fast enough. Its a good fight but ultimately Gorgon takes a majority. The Wolverine and Zealot fight doesn't change except she gets put down by Spidey or Gorgon after beating Wolverine.

-Marvel wins

Round 4: This again goes to team Marvel losing his battle computer is too much of a hindrance for Middy. Without it he has no answer for Spider-man's superior stats and pre-cog. Normal Spidey could win this fight. Again in this case no telepathy actually helps Gorgon out meaning the same thing that happened last round occurs here except Slayton is at even more of a disadvantage.

-Marvel wins

#7 Edited by MisterGuyMan (2046 posts) - - Show Bio

Wildstorm wins. The biggest threat is Gorgon's sight and Mightnighter will warn the team. Zealot can fight blindfolded.

I'll write more later. In a bit of a rush now.

#8 Edited by Buckshot (18925 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@dondave: I don't it think its that bad, as Spider-Man was likewise limited in the second round as was Gorgon. Besides, Midnighter is an accomplished Martial Artist without the Computer, and still maintains his abilites to see weak points in a persons body. And he still has his stats.

I don't think it's equivalent (if for no other reason than the amount of support that can be generated from comics is far less for Midnighter given the ubiquitous nature of the combat computer and other things) but it's your thread to balance and unbalance as you will. It being your thread is why I can't complain that Zealot is there instead of Nemesis. What does "half gen backlash" mean? I would assume that means how he was for the longest with the purple whips as opposed to his broken Team 7 levels or his gold whips, but I want to make sure.

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#9 Posted by Strider92 (16758 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshot: Helf-Gen Factor Backlash was when his Kherubim heritage kicked in and took away his TP and TK giving him his stereotypical powerset (purple whips, the ability to go intangible at will etc...). Half-Gen BL was the form before he got completely purged of his Gen-Factor that left him with much stronger psi-whips but was then only able to mist about twice a day.

#10 Edited by laflux (17493 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshot said:

@laflux said:

@dondave: I don't it think its that bad, as Spider-Man was likewise limited in the second round as was Gorgon. Besides, Midnighter is an accomplished Martial Artist without the Computer, and still maintains his abilites to see weak points in a persons body. And he still has his stats.

I don't think it's equivalent (if for no other reason than the amount of support that can be generated from comics is far less for Midnighter given the ubiquitous nature of the combat computer and other things) but it's your thread to balance and unbalance as you will. It being your thread is why I can't complain that Zealot is there instead of Nemesis. What does "half gen backlash" mean?

That seems to be the general consensus so I may change the OP. Nemesis would made the battle too unbalanced IMO. Half Gen Backlash has unlimited Misting but his Psi whips are not as powerful.

#11 Posted by Buckshot (18925 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshot: Helf-Gen Factor Backlash was when his Kherubim heritage kicked in and took away his TP and TK giving him his stereotypical powerset (purple whips, the ability to go intangible at will etc...). Half-Gen BL was the form before he got completely purged of his Gen-Factor that left him with much stronger psi-whips but was then only able to mist about twice a day.

Just clarifying because I personally don't consider that "half"-gen (since I don't know where that measurement would come from). I refer to it as purple whips or just gen-factor. He had his genfactor before that in team 7, but that wasn't long enough for me to consider that as a possible default form for him in battles.

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#12 Posted by Strider92 (16758 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

That seems to be the general consensus so I may change the OP. Nemesis would made the battle too unbalanced IMO. Half Gen Backlash has unlimited Misting but his Psi whips are not as powerful.

I concur. No one on the other team would come close to a majority against Nemesis with standard gear and no prep. Midnighter however is at a big disadvantage without his Battle computer due to the fact he relies on that quite a bit and outside of that has no real skill. You might consider taking away his weapons or alternatively his healing factor if you're looking to handicap him in not such a severe way.

#13 Edited by laflux (17493 posts) - - Show Bio
#14 Posted by Strider92 (16758 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshot said:

Just clarifying because I personally don't consider that "half"-gen (since I don't know where that measurement would come from). I refer to it as purple whips or just gen-factor. He had his genfactor before that in team 7, but that wasn't long enough for me to consider that as a possible default form for him in battles.

Honestly I don't know where the the measurement "Half-Gen" came from either. At a guess I would say it was because after his Kherubim heritage kicked in he was still able to use TK and TP when pushed far enough (in his fight with Helspont for example he was desperate enough to pull his old powers back out) but after he lost it completely he was unable to pull his TK and TP anymore. Air-go when he had purple whips his Gen-Factor was only "Half" gone. Thats the only logical reason I can think of.

#15 Posted by Beast_of_Brass (153 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow.. this is a good battle. I have to think about it a little.

#16 Edited by Buckshot (18925 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

That seems to be the general consensus so I may change the OP. Nemesis would made the battle too unbalanced IMO. Half Gen Backlash has unlimited Misting but his Psi whips are not as powerful.

I concur. No one on the other team would come close to a majority against Nemesis with standard gear and no prep. Midnighter however is at a big disadvantage without his Battle computer due to the fact he relies on that quite a bit and outside of that has no real skill. You might consider taking away his weapons or alternatively his healing factor if you're looking to handicap him in not such a severe way.

Not that this is the place for it, but I disagree. I don't think it's removal is as big of an actual disadvantage as you're making it seem, especially with him making comments about getting rid of it (while easily carving his way through the main team of the Wildstorm Universe). And the "no real skill" comment is challenged by the same feat as well as training he's referenced, demonstrated against simulations in his private practice sessions, and his ability to identify the training of others and coach others in their fights. My issue with the removal of it is that since it's present almost all the time, there isn't that much to support him if you only use things where he doesn't have it.

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#17 Edited by Strider92 (16758 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshot: Perhaps the "no real skill" comment was a bit harsh however it doesn't really change the fact we've never seen Middy go into a big confrontation without the use of his battle computer so we don't know how handicapped he is going to be. What we do know however is that he relies on it quite heavily in combat as we see him use it in nearly every fight and uses it in ways he probably isn't fully aware of. A good example is when Spider-man lost his spider-sense things as mundane as web-swinging were initially hard because before losing his spider-sense he could predict in advance where to shoot a web-line. We also saw his fighting ability drop considerably due to the fact he couldn't react as fast (granted it he was downplayed a bit by Slott). I don't see why this shouldn't be much different when it comes to Middy as well.

#18 Edited by Buckshot (18925 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshot: Perhaps the "no real skill" comment was a bit harsh however it doesn't really change the fact we've never seen Middy go into a big confrontation without the use of his battle computer so we don't know how handicapped he is going to be. What we do know however is that he relies on it quite heavily in combat as we see him use it in nearly every fight and uses it in ways he probably isn't fully aware of. A good example is when Spider-man lost his spider-sense things as mundane as web-swinging were initially hard because before losing his spider-sense he could predict in advance where to shoot a web-line. We also saw his fighting ability drop considerably due to the fact he couldn't react as fast (granted it he was downplayed a bit by Slott). I don't see why this shouldn't be much different when it comes to Middy as well.

I actually used that same example the exact opposite way. Lemme just repost: "On the one hand Spider-Man has an advantage with their senses missing since he doesn't get as much from his sense as Midnighter does (and so, would be losing less) and also because current Spider-Man doesn't use his spider sense as well as he should even to begin with. I don't think Midnighter would be crippled without his combat computer by any means though. He's fought without it before, even taking on Stormwatch without it and has made comments about not needing it or having it removed in the past. Since he gets more from it though, its a bigger loss. The question is if it's big enough to cost him the fight. I don't think so, but I'm not off the relative losses yet. Spider-Man seems to rely on his sense less, but I'm tempted to say he relies on it more. While Midnighter gets more, he's fully aware of what info he's getting. Spider-Man though, we've seen be surprised by how much info his spider sense gives him when he's lost it. The normally simple task of webslinging has been almost fatal without his senses, and I think that sort of thing puts him at a greater disadvantage than it might seem at first. Spider-Man losing a sense that helps him in more ways than he realizes, without the benefit of the training he undertook to compensate, means he's starting this fight further back than Midnighter." We've seen Parker be slowed by having his senses removed every time, and sometimes in ways no one would expect, but the few times Midnighter has gone without his combat computer haven't been anywhere near as severe. On the other hand, he's had impressive feats without it and actually commented on how good he was on his own. That sort of thing makes me lean in his favor when it comes to the removal of his power. But we're getting off topic and I'm about to head out. I may return later.

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#19 Edited by jashro44 (23675 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not very knowledgeable on the wildstorm characters so I can't really say who wins.

EDIT: All though from the very little I do know I think wolverine might be the weak link. If I'm not mistaken backlash can incapacitate him with his whips, midnighter should be able to knock him out, and Zealots blade can cut through him.

#20 Edited by Buckshot (18925 posts) - - Show Bio

Almost forgot about this thread.

If characters get matched up the way people are thinking they will, then I think the idea that midnighter and Spider-Man get stuck fighting while the other pairs settle up faster then provide back up is solid, and I'd say Wildstorm would be a little more likely to win their fights and help out Midnighter more often than not. But, I don't really think these characters would necessarily match up like this. Given Backlash and Zealot's familiarity with each other, and Midnighter's ability to plot out the entire fight (as well as telepathically communicate and coordinate if he really wants to), I don't see dedicated one on one matches being the way things play out. The ridiculous mobility and range of Backlash could have him bouncing between targets in a way that would make Nightcrawler jealous, and Zealot could easily step in anywhere he's not with Midnighter also engaging multiple opponents at a time. I see a fluid fighting style forming from in the Wildstorm team where they would frequently double or even triple team a Marvel enemy briefly to take them down, and that could quickly change this fight from a close one to a one-sided one. For instance, the idea that Midnighter and Spider-Man would get locked up is true I think, but when Backlash can either attack across a huge distance at a moment's notice with a whip or become mist and be an inescapable but intangible threat to spider-man, his ability to easily (and without risk) interfere with Spider-Man's fight is pretty great. Midnighter outplanning or cornering Spider-Man's danger avoidance mechanism would be much easier when he has a ball of smoke and energy as a partner. Backlash would only have to disengage (or not even completely disengage, his whips give him a ton of freedom) from his partner for a second to trip Spider-Man up, but he could prolong the double team as well without it negatively affecting his teams chances. Zealot is less mobile than Backlash, but can be aided by a Door, and even without that she's shown her ability to engage Midnighter and is a move reader herself, which suggests she can manage to be a threat to Spider-Man despite his senses. I just see the Wildstorm team as better able to group up on an opponent (and avoid being grouped up on thanks to Doors, misting, and Midnighter's comprehensive precog).

And this isn't to say that the Marvel team can't tag team too, but I think it's far more likely to happen on the Wildstorm team given a mix of familiarity and power sets. Spider-Man and Wolverine would likely work very well together, but I don't see Gorgon working with them as effortlessly.The Wildstorm team has a couple people that practically invented armed combat, one of whom considers violence a second language and she's fluent in it, and a third character that will simply know everything and be mentally connected to the other two. And they benefit from being on the same level of brutality since they're all basically professional murderers. I'd also add that even if the WS team didn't bounce around as much as I think they would and they do end up having permanent matches, it still wouldn't need to be the ones presented. I see Backlash more than able to take Spider-Man. He can't be webbed, his effective range is far superior, he's equally agile/acrobatic, he's a FAR better fighter, and I really doubt Spider-Man's ability to avoid the whips. They've been said to move as fast as bullets or even thoughts. Spider-Man dodges bullets because he's alerted to them and can move out of their trajectory. If a bullet could move with him, he'd have a much harder time escaping, especially if it left a trail in the air that was just as dangerous as the bullet itself. Even if Spider-man could avoid Backlash's offense (whips or just fighting skill), he still doesn't have the skill to put Backlash down, or the ability to reliably land hits since Backlash can just mist any time Spider-Man looks like he'll actually land a hit. And personally, I think just standing next to Backlash would overload Spider-Man's spider sense. Just considering the whips, Backlash can attack Spider-Man at any (and every) angle. Add in the danger presented by fighting in a cloud of mist and Spider-Man could really only escape Backlash by getting away from him entirely, and that removes his ability to do any real damage. Backlash would have Spider-Man on the defensive maybe more than Midnighter would, because at least with Midnighter, Spider-Man has a solid target he can hit and attacks come in a much more straightforward manner.

Now for later variations on the fight, I don't see round two changing much. I don't think webs are going to be very effective at all (misting, agility, and Doors to avoid entirely, and explosives, blades and whips to destroy webbing should someone get snagged) though it would limit Spider-man's mobility some (though not much really, I think he won't be seriously gimped by their removal). And I actually think removing the stone gaze will only help Gorgon. Midnighter will instantly know that Gorgon has this tactic up his sleeve and if Midnighter says nothing else, he'll warn his teammates about that and given the amount of blades on this team, I see them being able to pull Wolverine's trick of turning it back on him if he's foolish enough to try. His telepathy being removed might slow him down, but I think he's an excellent fighter without it (and really, if it was so helpful anyway, Wolverine wouldn't have gotten him with the aforementioned trick). Round 3 is a bigger issue because it strips the Wildstorm team of their mobility and ability to escape at a moment's notice. I don't think this will be too bad for most situations (avoiding individual attacks) since Zealot won't be depending on either of those, Backlash is still amazingly agile, and Midnighter is not only agile and aware of the attacks coming for him, but he can tank a lot of damage. It will really suck if Spider-Man starts blasting huge areas with webbing though, and it would also put a limit on how effectively the Wildstorm team can back each other up. This is the fight I think the Marvel team would win most often, but that's not surprising. Round 4 removes the threat of area webbing so the lack of mobility for the WS team is quite as terrible.

That's where I start anyway.

EDIT: Did What If Spider-Man ever use area webbing?

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#21 Edited by MisterWhisper (2119 posts) - - Show Bio

I think I am more confused by the idea that What if Spiderman, Gorgos, Midnighter, Backlash, and Zealot are considered street level. Wolverine is debatable.

When I think street level heroes I think: Nightwing, Daredevil, maybe going as hight up as Luke Cage.

#22 Posted by laflux (17493 posts) - - Show Bio

I think I am more confused by the idea that What if Spiderman, Gorgon, Midnighter, Backlash, and Zealot are considered street level. Wolverine is debatable.

When I think street level heroes I think: Nightwing, Daredevil, maybe going as hight up as Luke Cage.

Its Power creep man.