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#51 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4182 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidman560: Again... Strange destroyed a whole dimension (=universe) because he felt like it and killed Shuma Gorath twice.

#52 Posted by dondave (39002 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: ok she tanks a blast from a machine that was built to destroy worlds and then lifts a finger to destroy it @dondave or @killemall may have the full scan for this fight (not really fight)

Captain Universe isn't Omnipotent, she's powerful but I wouldn't say she could beat Galactus, as for her beating the Aleph, to be fair Shang Chi broke it leg with a chop so we can't really base her power on that.

She did tank a planet being destroyed although she was also knocked out.

#53 Edited by The_Red_Viper (4182 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:

@darkraiden said:

@the_red_viper said:

@darkraiden: Regardless, Stange still killed Shuma, defeated the In Betweener and arguably stalemated the LT (depends on how you define a stalemate).

@xaijinn said:

Can xavier do much? If nothing elsebut distract strange while others (thor/sentry) battle him physically?

I doubt it, Classic Strange is a really powerful telepath, he creamed Dormammu's sister whose name I can't remember in a mental fight, she's supposedly extremely powerful.

Not really.

1. Shuma, again, was very special circumstances, not applicable.

2. He beat In Betweener by calling upon Chaos and Order, his masters, and hasn't done so any other time, again not applicable.

3. Kinda....more just impressed him.

Why is Shuma not applicable? Because it disproves your argument?

In the one with the LT, Strange escaped some sort of binding spell that was casted on him by the LT.

Thor isn't smart enough nor fast enough to save Earth from a morals off Classic Strange, especially when he doesn't know he's coming.

True Thor might not be smart enough. And I agree Strange did....something with LT.

Shuma isn't applicable because he

A. Got rid of his ego or w/e and turned to dark magic

B. Absorbed Arioch,a being who can make himself infinitely powerful, into himself, something he hasn't done since

C. He still was doing nothing, but somehow being near Shuma turned him into Shuma

D. When he was Shuma, he used Shuma to "kill" Shuma.

E. None of that seems like it will come into play when fighting Marvel Earth

Turned to Dark Magic-isn't that basically what happens in this thread's scenario?

And I dunno what you mean by turning into Shuma (maybe that was the second time, scans of which I sadly do not have), but in the fight I posted that doesn't look like Strange has absorbed and/or changed into anything.

Regardless, Shuma is also >>>> Thor and Marvel Earth so the very fact that Strange killed him (twice) already puts him on an amazing level.

#54 Posted by kidman560 (7578 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: again Captain Universe is powered by the Uni Power (and please dont tell me what classic strange has done i know full well what hes done i have about 40 scans of him doing feats in my images!) anyways the Uni Power is given to someone to help protect the Universe and gives them god like abilities. she can lift 2 fingers and kill strange

#55 Posted by DarkRaiden (8793 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden said:

@the_red_viper said:

@darkraiden said:

@the_red_viper said:

@darkraiden: Regardless, Stange still killed Shuma, defeated the In Betweener and arguably stalemated the LT (depends on how you define a stalemate).

@xaijinn said:

Can xavier do much? If nothing elsebut distract strange while others (thor/sentry) battle him physically?

I doubt it, Classic Strange is a really powerful telepath, he creamed Dormammu's sister whose name I can't remember in a mental fight, she's supposedly extremely powerful.

Not really.

1. Shuma, again, was very special circumstances, not applicable.

2. He beat In Betweener by calling upon Chaos and Order, his masters, and hasn't done so any other time, again not applicable.

3. Kinda....more just impressed him.

Why is Shuma not applicable? Because it disproves your argument?

In the one with the LT, Strange escaped some sort of binding spell that was casted on him by the LT.

Thor isn't smart enough nor fast enough to save Earth from a morals off Classic Strange, especially when he doesn't know he's coming.

True Thor might not be smart enough. And I agree Strange did....something with LT.

Shuma isn't applicable because he

A. Got rid of his ego or w/e and turned to dark magic

B. Absorbed Arioch,a being who can make himself infinitely powerful, into himself, something he hasn't done since

C. He still was doing nothing, but somehow being near Shuma turned him into Shuma

D. When he was Shuma, he used Shuma to "kill" Shuma.

E. None of that seems like it will come into play when fighting Marvel Earth

Turned to Dark Magic-isn't that basically what happens in this thread's scenario?

And I dunno what you mean by turning into Shuma (maybe that was the second time, scans of which I sadly do not have), but in the fight I posted that doesn't look like Strange has absorbed and/or changed into anything.

Regardless, Shuma is also >>>> Thor and Marvel Earth so the very fact that Strange killed him (twice) already puts him on an amazing level.

Beating Shuma does not put him above them necessarily because it was all circumstance. Context counts for a lot, and he can't repeat any of the things he did against Shuma here. It was the first time they fought btw, in the chaos dimension.

#56 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4182 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: again Captain Universe is powered by the Uni Power (and please dont tell me what classic strange has done i know full well what hes done i have about 40 scans of him doing feats in my images!) anyways the Uni Power is given to someone to help protect the Universe and gives them god like abilities. she can lift 2 fingers and kill strange

@dondave doesn't seem to agree with you. He said that CU's best feat was only being knocked out after a planet busted in her face.

Not only did Strange survive a supernova that turned into a black hole, he also used magic to close it.

#57 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4182 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:

@darkraiden said:

@the_red_viper said:

@darkraiden said:

@the_red_viper said:

@darkraiden: Regardless, Stange still killed Shuma, defeated the In Betweener and arguably stalemated the LT (depends on how you define a stalemate).

@xaijinn said:

Can xavier do much? If nothing elsebut distract strange while others (thor/sentry) battle him physically?

I doubt it, Classic Strange is a really powerful telepath, he creamed Dormammu's sister whose name I can't remember in a mental fight, she's supposedly extremely powerful.

Not really.

1. Shuma, again, was very special circumstances, not applicable.

2. He beat In Betweener by calling upon Chaos and Order, his masters, and hasn't done so any other time, again not applicable.

3. Kinda....more just impressed him.

Why is Shuma not applicable? Because it disproves your argument?

In the one with the LT, Strange escaped some sort of binding spell that was casted on him by the LT.

Thor isn't smart enough nor fast enough to save Earth from a morals off Classic Strange, especially when he doesn't know he's coming.

True Thor might not be smart enough. And I agree Strange did....something with LT.

Shuma isn't applicable because he

A. Got rid of his ego or w/e and turned to dark magic

B. Absorbed Arioch,a being who can make himself infinitely powerful, into himself, something he hasn't done since

C. He still was doing nothing, but somehow being near Shuma turned him into Shuma

D. When he was Shuma, he used Shuma to "kill" Shuma.

E. None of that seems like it will come into play when fighting Marvel Earth

Turned to Dark Magic-isn't that basically what happens in this thread's scenario?

And I dunno what you mean by turning into Shuma (maybe that was the second time, scans of which I sadly do not have), but in the fight I posted that doesn't look like Strange has absorbed and/or changed into anything.

Regardless, Shuma is also >>>> Thor and Marvel Earth so the very fact that Strange killed him (twice) already puts him on an amazing level.

Beating Shuma does not put him above them necessarily because it was all circumstance. Context counts for a lot, and he can't repeat any of the things he did against Shuma here. It was the first time they fought btw, in the chaos dimension.

Why can't he repeat anything? In my scans it doesn't seem like anything too special happened there that can't be repeated.

#58 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (21304 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#59 Posted by DarkRaiden (8793 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden said:

@the_red_viper said:

@darkraiden said:

@the_red_viper said:

@darkraiden said:

@the_red_viper said:

@darkraiden: Regardless, Stange still killed Shuma, defeated the In Betweener and arguably stalemated the LT (depends on how you define a stalemate).

@xaijinn said:

Can xavier do much? If nothing elsebut distract strange while others (thor/sentry) battle him physically?

I doubt it, Classic Strange is a really powerful telepath, he creamed Dormammu's sister whose name I can't remember in a mental fight, she's supposedly extremely powerful.

Not really.

1. Shuma, again, was very special circumstances, not applicable.

2. He beat In Betweener by calling upon Chaos and Order, his masters, and hasn't done so any other time, again not applicable.

3. Kinda....more just impressed him.

Why is Shuma not applicable? Because it disproves your argument?

In the one with the LT, Strange escaped some sort of binding spell that was casted on him by the LT.

Thor isn't smart enough nor fast enough to save Earth from a morals off Classic Strange, especially when he doesn't know he's coming.

True Thor might not be smart enough. And I agree Strange did....something with LT.

Shuma isn't applicable because he

A. Got rid of his ego or w/e and turned to dark magic

B. Absorbed Arioch,a being who can make himself infinitely powerful, into himself, something he hasn't done since

C. He still was doing nothing, but somehow being near Shuma turned him into Shuma

D. When he was Shuma, he used Shuma to "kill" Shuma.

E. None of that seems like it will come into play when fighting Marvel Earth

Turned to Dark Magic-isn't that basically what happens in this thread's scenario?

And I dunno what you mean by turning into Shuma (maybe that was the second time, scans of which I sadly do not have), but in the fight I posted that doesn't look like Strange has absorbed and/or changed into anything.

Regardless, Shuma is also >>>> Thor and Marvel Earth so the very fact that Strange killed him (twice) already puts him on an amazing level.

Beating Shuma does not put him above them necessarily because it was all circumstance. Context counts for a lot, and he can't repeat any of the things he did against Shuma here. It was the first time they fought btw, in the chaos dimension.

Why can't he repeat anything? In my scans it doesn't seem like anything too special happened there that can't be repeated.

Because he's never done anything like the absorption thing ever again. It goes to stand that he simply can't do it. And he only beat Shuma because HE WAS SHUMA. No one on Marvel Earth turns you into themselves. So it's not applicable.

#60 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4182 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden: Again, look at my scans. Where do you see Strange absorbing anything? Where do you see him becoming Shuma? You're probably talking about the other fight.

#61 Posted by DarkRaiden (8793 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden: Again, look at my scans. Where do you see Strange absorbing anything? Where do you see him becoming Shuma? You're probably talking about the other fight.

Again, he absorbed Arioch first. Something he can't do here. And...

"If you gain enough power to best me, you become me?"

"Behold, your mortal shell Strange! Already the change begins!"

#62 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4182 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:

@darkraiden: Again, look at my scans. Where do you see Strange absorbing anything? Where do you see him becoming Shuma? You're probably talking about the other fight.

Again, he absorbed Arioch first. Something he can't do here. And...

"If you gain enough power to best me, you become me?"

"Behold, your mortal shell Strange! Already the change begins!"

The key words here are "you gain enough power to best me".

Strange gained enough power to beat Shuma. Becoming him was a side effect.

#63 Posted by DarkRaiden (8793 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden said:

@the_red_viper said:

@darkraiden: Again, look at my scans. Where do you see Strange absorbing anything? Where do you see him becoming Shuma? You're probably talking about the other fight.

Again, he absorbed Arioch first. Something he can't do here. And...

"If you gain enough power to best me, you become me?"

"Behold, your mortal shell Strange! Already the change begins!"

The key words here are "you gain enough power to best me".

Strange gained enough power to beat Shuma. Becoming him was a side effect.

Says he merged with Shuma.

#64 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4182 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden: That's the other fight with Shuma. In that other fight, Strange sacrificed himself to kill Shuma. In this fight he didn't.

Regardless, Strange can still solo Marvel Earth. He doesn't even have to leave his home.

#65 Posted by DarkRaiden (8793 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden: That's the other fight with Shuma. In that other fight, Strange sacrificed himself to kill Shuma. In this fight he didn't.

Regardless, Strange can still solo Marvel Earth. He doesn't even have to leave his home.

Possibly. And what other fight with Shuma? Pretty sure this is that fight.

#66 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4182 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:

@darkraiden: That's the other fight with Shuma. In that other fight, Strange sacrificed himself to kill Shuma. In this fight he didn't.

Regardless, Strange can still solo Marvel Earth. He doesn't even have to leave his home.

Possibly. And what other fight with Shuma? Pretty sure this is that fight.

Like I said earlier, he beat Shuma twice. Sadly I don't have scans of the other fight aside from this one:

#67 Posted by DarkRaiden (8793 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden said:

@the_red_viper said:

@darkraiden: That's the other fight with Shuma. In that other fight, Strange sacrificed himself to kill Shuma. In this fight he didn't.

Regardless, Strange can still solo Marvel Earth. He doesn't even have to leave his home.

Possibly. And what other fight with Shuma? Pretty sure this is that fight.

Like I said earlier, he beat Shuma twice. Sadly I don't have scans of the other fight aside from this one:

That's when he just killed the Ancient One to banish him back to his realm. The one where he sacrificed himself is the one you're talking about. He merged with him and killed him.

#68 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4182 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden: Doesn't really look like he's sacrificing himself:

#69 Posted by Chaos Prime (10895 posts) - - Show Bio

Without prep imo Marvel Earth is Doomed.

#70 Posted by DarkRaiden (8793 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden: Doesn't really look like he's sacrificing himself:

But the text before says he did. Also if you look afterwards....he ends up sacrificing himself or he'll destroy galaxies or something.

#71 Posted by 106me (1887 posts) - - Show Bio

IG Thanos or Dormammu could solo Strange.

#72 Edited by Setherial (214 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: @darkraiden:

Here is a basic rundown of the whole Strange/Shuma-Gorath thing that took place in Strange Tales II (1987/1988).

Strange found out that the Old Ones had decided to attack Earth once again after the barriers Strange put in place to block them from the dimension were destroyed (he destroyed them in a previous arc to save his friends from the alien Urthona). A globe in his Sanctum Sanctorum depicts the places on Earth where their evil had started to spread, so he goes to combat them. Unfortunately, because moments prior he had murdered a man possessed by a Water Elemental that tried to kill Strange, his spirit became impure and it caused his magic spells to go haywire or summon demons against his wishes. In order to combat the Old Ones he was forced to accept the tutelage of he and the Ancient One's former nemesis, Kaluu, and learn the ways of black magic. It's a grueling process and costs him much, but by the time he reaches Shuma-Gorath's realm he gains the following:

1) The Wings of Needless Sorrow (Strange is no longer able to use any white magic after becoming the host of the WoNS).

2) Ghaszaszh Nyirh's eldritch energy contained in his eye socket (Nyirh had destroyed Strange's eyeball with an energy beam)

3) Victoria Bentley's magic and magic potential (Victoria Bentley was said to have more magic in her than Strange's rival Baron Mordo)

4) Vast knowledge in the ways of black magic (Taught by Kaluu)

5) Fusion with a chaos lord containing infinite energy, Arioch (Made possible by the Wings of Needless Sorrow).

The further Strange went in his journey to find out who was targeting Earth (he didn't know Shuma-Gorath was the culprit until he reached his realm), the more acts of black magic he had to commit in order to become one with the black arts:

1) Destroyed the body of the innocent Martin Fein, who was unfortunately taken over by the Water Elemental that served Shuma Gorath.

2) Killed a house cat in order to get rid of the Khat demons

3) Called upon the souls of dead allies, the Defenders, in order to fight Erlik Kahn.

4) Became the host of the Wings of Needless Sorrow, a talisman made by the Old Ones that caused mass homicide and suicide in Hong Kong.

5) Destroyed a temple to banish Ghaszaszh Nyirh, which killed many innocent starving Africans that had gone to Nyirh for food.

6) Took Victoria Bentley's magic potential by force, after tricking her into thinking he was interested in being romantic with her.

7) Became one with evil chaotic energies by merging with Arioch.

8) Continued to absorb evil chaotic energies by absorbing power from Shuma-Gorath himself.

Shuma-Gorath tells Doctor Strange as they are fighting "he who fights with dragons becomes a dragon himself". Basically saying that Doctor Strange is becoming the very thing he's trying to save Earth from. He hits Strange, which breaks off a good chunk of his clothing, and reveals that his body has already started morphing. Now, this change didn't take place simply by Doctor Strange fighting against agents of chaos- otherwise anything that fought one would start turning into one of them. It's true that as Strange's journey went on, the more willing he was to sacrifice others for his goal and the more aggressive he became. But the reason for the change in his demeanor and appearance was in large part due to him becoming the host of the Wings of Needless Sorrow.

The Wings of Needless Sorrow allows its user to drain magic from others and in turn lets its user dish out more powerful magic. The only reason Strange was able to absorb a being of infinite energy (Arioch), something he hasn't done since, is because of the Wings of Needless Sorrow's magic draining abilities. It also helped Strange in his battle against Shuma-Gorath. We know this because Shuma tells Strange that he was draining his power. The Wings were continuously siphoning from Shuma as the battle went on - Strange doesn't need to tell the Wings out loud to do anything since they can be controlled by mental commands. That's what Shuma is talking about when Shuma says "you drain my power, Strange". Strange didn't merge with Shuma-Gorath during the battle, although he was absorbing from him as time went on. But, when Strange threw Shuma's mystic replica of Earth back at him and smashed Shuma's shell, that allowed Strange to absorb all the rest of Shuma's power within him (essentially merging with Shuma) because he was wearing the Wings of Needless Sorrow.

Also, Strange sacrificing himself by impaling his body with Shuma's tentacle didn't kill him in the physical sense, obviously since he was still there. What it did was kill Doctor Strange's sense of self, his ego. That meant that Strange had no idea who he was anymore. This was especially dangerous because, as Shuma-Gorath had said would happen, if Strange has no sense of who he is anymore and yet has all of Shuma-Gorath's power surging within him - essentially Shuma-Gorath within him because Shuma is not a physical thing but rather sentient evil energy - then one day when his magic invoked the will of Shuma-Gorath he would respond to it and become the new Shuma.

Kaluu and Enitharmon the Weaver had to make Strange confront his past in order to make him regain his sense of self and prevent this from happening.

#73 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (7216 posts) - - Show Bio

HOM Wanda.

#74 Posted by nickzambuto (15467 posts) - - Show Bio

But Thor isn't from Marvel Earth. He's from Asgard.

He operates on Earth (mainly), which is what Earth-based characters mean. For example, if a human got powers and became a galaxy traveling space cop, he wouldn't be considered Earth based, despite being born there.

#75 Edited by New_World_Order (13516 posts) - - Show Bio

Odin.

#76 Edited by sophia89 (8302 posts) - - Show Bio

1:captain universe went into a coma from a single planet busting event,and it took all the gardeners to heal her,you can say she is weaker cause the universe is broken,but for no where near thor,btw he also killed a builder with ease.

2:high lvl reality warpers curpstomp him,which earth has alot of,well more than other planets.

#77 Posted by Moonman78 (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

Doom, Magik, Juggernaut, Legion, Mad Jim Jaspers, Franklin Richards, Reed Richards (Deus ex machina style), Black Panther, Thor, maybe Sentry.

Doom and t'challa could come up with something swell, if you were to add Juggs and Thor there combined efforts could surely stop him.

#78 Posted by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwwprod said:


And people thought that Franklin was the one who made Galactus his herald even though Strange did it first LOL! ;)

Well the difference is pretty apparently,an Adult Franklin actually made Galactus his herald, while Dr. Strange, manage to beat a hungry, starving Galactus, who was already struggling with Avengers and physically shrinking.

Big difference.

#79 Posted by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden: That's the other fight with Shuma. In that other fight, Strange sacrificed himself to kill Shuma. In this fight he didn't.

Nope its the same fight, this is the only time Dr. Strange has fought Shuma Gorath in his dimension.

#80 Edited by dum529001 (1697 posts) - - Show Bio

Isn't Shuma gorath Nightmare's master as well?

Anyway, Thor doesn't destroy galaxies and universes or even begin to take on foes of that level without the help of his mystic hammer or other super-powered magic weapons. That hammer is pretty powerful all by itself since its endowed with some of Odin's power.

#81 Edited by devilsmaydie (173 posts) - - Show Bio
@darkraiden said:

@the_red_viper said:

Why can't he repeat anything? In my scans it doesn't seem like anything too special happened there that can't be repeated.

Because he's never done anything like the absorption thing ever again. It goes to stand that he simply can't do it. And he only beat Shuma because HE WAS SHUMA. No one on Marvel Earth turns you into themselves. So it's not applicable.

I know this reply is to an old post

He did the power steal several times in the arc with Shuma Gorath using the Wings of Eternal Sorrow, yes, but it's possible to do the same without it. Sise-Neg was able to do it, and he started off as a normal sorceror with less power than Dr Strange but learned of it from a book no less. For example, I believe he merely used a spell not the WoES to take Bentley's magical potential, it's been a while since I read this series but looking it up, for Arioch it clearly states WoES but for Bentley it says he used a spell. It's possible with black magic, the thing he completely sworn off proceeding those events. This evil Doctor Strange would not be held back from using the full extent of his mastery of white and black magic.

Course this is assuming he'd even need to do that. There are many black magic spells where unless you have the knowledge and ability to perform the appropriate high level counter spell it equates to instant death (like the spell of annihilation). Then there was the time during a fight with Dormammu, where Dormammu cast a spell that makes the target cease to exist (he used a similar spell another time as well), Strange only survived by using a counter spell at the last moment. And a bit more recently the far weaker current Strange used a spell that essentially just destroys the soul (his first dabble in black magic since he gave it up back then). The use of black magic brings another world of possibilities. Like the ability to forcefully merge the power of another entity with himself.

Save for his time with gaian and catastrophe magic, and dark magic he occasionally (though initially unknowingly) used (before learning/mastering it from Kaluu) early in his career he is strictly white magic. Not using his most powerful and deadly stuff because the affect and its influence. Let's face it the use of that power can take its toll and he avoids using it to avoid the situation that is the topic of discussion. But if he were to ever put his morality aside and cut loose he'd be something else entirely. Needing something beyond the other heroes of Marvel to be stopped.

And actually he has done absorption feats like that other times. He once absorbed all the earth magic into himself. A weakened Strange absorbed the power of Ghost Rider to help him fight Dormammu. He drew from and absorbed the energy of an alien universe to heal himself. He sucked evil magic from an army of wizards and placed it in Mordo (who after the power boost got power drunk, attacked Strange only to have his soul ripped out and sent back in time). A post-classic Strange was able to draw out the Odin Force and place it in Thor's hammer.Then there are a couple times where he has drained people of energy/magic, like the wrecking crew, though I don't believe he absorbed the power into himself there. His most powerful foes can do the same things (like Dormammu and Shuma Gorath) too, they don't need any special circumstances for it (like the WoES). Magic itself can do it, look at Dormammu and Dr Strange they wield magic the same way taking from the same pool (as magic is finite) the difference is one uses black magic the other white.

#82 Posted by lol (5388 posts) - - Show Bio

Doom with prep FTW

#83 Posted by comic_book_fan (6066 posts) - - Show Bio

franklin

phoenix

Doom

Reed with prep in marvel magic is just another form of energy that hasn't been explained and works a little diffrentthan most reed has claimed he can do everything strange can with tec he has.

thor

possibly xavier

and magneto.

#84 Edited by ssj_god (8310 posts) - - Show Bio

SHAMAN X-MAN

#85 Edited by Easternwind (3900 posts) - - Show Bio

Classic Strange is a planet buster. He sends the whole 616earth into another dimension/universe. does that count as killling everyone?

@comic_book_fan Reed didnt claim that about Classic strange did he? Theres no way he could. OR he would have, agaisnt planetary threats, Classic Strange could have wiped some every FF vilans into another dimension with NO probem at all