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#51 Edited by The_Imperator (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@thebourneposter said:

When has it resisted molecular manipulation from a force as powerful as the power cosmic? He turns the tardis into cotton candy.

When has Galactus turned math into something else? Because the TARDIS is made from Block Transfer Computation, i.e. mathematical formulas that write it into reality.Also, turning the shell into something else does nothing to the inside, one is entirely mutable, and the other is in its own pocket universe.

And as I asked in my post, when has Galactus blinked away 11-D entities?

The TARDIS has never been destroyed, short of internal sabotage and almost by an Eign(spelling?) Ram (colliding with itself and annihilating itself). It survived having itself raped by a time line virus that turned it into reality cancer. It has survived materializing in a universe made of thought. It survived being turned into a thought in the Doctor's head. I am not saying that Galactus can't destroy the TARDIS shell, but it won't be as easy as turning it into cotton candy.

#52 Posted by TheBournePoster (575 posts) - - Show Bio

@dratini1331: Actually, that sums it up pretty well. 100% Galactus is equal in power to Eternity, so anything short of TOAA, Presence, Spectre, or Living Tribunal isn't going to beat him.

#53 Edited by The_Imperator (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright, I want to concede on the Galactus vs. base level TARDIS thing. I do realize he could blast the TARDIS out of reality if he wanted to, it just irks me when people say he would just snap it away or something like that.

#54 Posted by Dratini1331 (6978 posts) - - Show Bio

@dratini1331: Actually, that sums it up pretty well. 100% Galactus is equal in power to Eternity, so anything short of TOAA, Presence, Spectre, or Living Tribunal isn't going to beat him.

Yea, but non 100% is likely going to have trouble getting by shields. i personally still say Galactus wins, buts that's me.

#55 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

guys this is so easy, how has no one brought this up
In just one year this guy managed to kill 8 gophers and Tennessee walking horse that was looking at him funny

has The Doktah Ever done that?

I thought not

#56 Posted by HyperViper97 (1342 posts) - - Show Bio

Squirrel girl. Plot vs plot

#57 Edited by ComicStooge (12001 posts) - - Show Bio

Basically, 616 Reed Richards can beat the Doctor bloodlusted, even if he has access to the reality bomb. Especially if he had the Reality Gem and Ultimate Nulifier.

Ultimate Reed would probably beat the Doctor if he didn't have access to his reality bomb thing.

#58 Posted by Amogah (8 posts) - - Show Bio

Characters with the same plot-iness or history being avatars/pawns of the abstracts and characters with cosmic awareness aat least subconsciously all have a chance here I think.

Franklin Richards no question. Also, another version of the Doctor could do it. Apparently, Adam Warlock and Constantine could sense and construct a winning scenario as they usually do although not necessarily go it alone. The Master might have a shot. Some version of Kang maybe. If nothing else we have to at least acknowledge that the Plot in this case dictates that the Doctor not achieve his goal so whatever forces that normal help him should at least be subtly slanted against him. It should be tense but the Doctor must lose. Quasar very possibly but I'm not sold. The Spectre, the Phantom Stranger both should be able to. Dr. Fate or Dr. Strange may be able to solo here, but should at least be able to counter plan. Dr. Doom should be considered an outside shot to steal the TARDIS some how at the appropriate time.

Anyway, there will be repercussions but the Doctor will lose.

#59 Posted by Anzendenai (118 posts) - - Show Bio

Darwin

#60 Posted by The__Jester (110 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Superman since he could punch the walls of reality and possibly mess up the TARDIS.

#61 Posted by The_Imperator (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Superman since he could punch the walls of reality and possibly mess up the TARDIS.

He gets time looped. And while Superman 1 million could get out of one, normal Superman is not getting out of one.

#62 Posted by TheBournePoster (575 posts) - - Show Bio
#63 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

Will the person we choose have prep?

If so:

John Constantine

If not:

Lucifer Morningstar

TBH, there's a chance JonCon can do it even wothout prep.

#64 Posted by The_Imperator (1886 posts) - - Show Bio
#65 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio
#66 Edited by The_Imperator (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: ... What? What? How the crap does that even work.... Although with that much prep the Doctor should be able to just pop him away as soon as the match starts.

#67 Edited by Deathstrokesrevenge (236 posts) - - Show Bio

Zoom

#68 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: ... What? What? How the crap does that even work.... Although with that much prep the Doctor should be able to just pop him away as soon as the match starts.

Well I dunno if it went exactly like this but that was the essence of it: JonCon was dying of serious lung cancer (the dude smokes A LOT). So he went up to The Presence (DC's equivilant of TOAA) and said something like this: Look, we both know that if I die, I'm going to hell. And we both know that if I'm going to hell, I'd be running the place in no time, since The First of the Fallen* is an idiot. And we both know that you REALLY don't want that to happen.

The Presence then cured him of his cancer.

*He is the devil. An omnipotent, omnipresent being that has stated Constantine is his most bitter enemy. He and JonCon have a long history between them. JonCon has humiliated him numerous times and even managed to kill him.

#69 Edited by Dratini1331 (6978 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: That's not really outsmarting him, so much as him acknowledging that John can beat FoF. Besides, The Doctor has dealt with similar scenarios or people before. The Master is a reoccurring villain who is just as amazing as the doctor. Given a year of prep vs someone, the Doctor would likely win since that Prep time is so one-sided.

i mean, he managed to get an entire fleet of starships to back off, while admitting he has no plan. Most of the time, Doctor doesn't get real prep, it's like he just works while in trouble. Given prep, he's one of the best characters of all time. He can inspire fear into Daleks without having a plan or prep.

#70 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: That's not really outsmarting him, so much as him acknowledging that John can beat FoF. Besides, The Doctor has dealt with similar scenarios or people before. The Master is a reoccurring villain who is just as amazing as the doctor. Given a year of prep vs someone, the Doctor would likely win since that Prep time is so one-sided.

i mean, he managed to get an entire fleet of starships to back off, while admitting he has no plan. Most of the time, Doctor doesn't get real prep, it's like he just works while in trouble. Given prep, he's one of the best characters of all time. He can inspire fear into Daleks without having a plan or prep.

It's not just acknowledging John can beat FotF. It's also acknowledging that John is a SERIOUS threat to him (since God and the devil are at an everlasting war, if John became the leader of hell, hence the devil, then it would be very bad for God). John's cunning is just... I'm still looking for a word to describe it. I'll get back to you on that one.

#71 Edited by The_Imperator (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: By definition, the FotF is not omnipotent or omniscient, or he never could have been defeated. :P

#72 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9450 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

First of the Fallen isn't omnipotent. I haven't read the series in a while but im pretty sure it was in the same continuity as the Sandman and Lucifer series. If so then FotF only holds his position as 'Devil' because Lucifer grew tired of Hell and decided to leave. FotF is very powerful but he is nowhere near Lucifer and therefore nowhere near Presence/God

But then again I could be wrong

#73 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: By definition, the FotF is not omnipotent or omniscient, or he never could have been defeated. :P

Did I say omniscient? I meant omnipresent, sorry. About omnipotence.. the internet seems to disagree with you =P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_of_the_Fallen

@the_red_viper:

First of the Fallen isn't omnipotent. I haven't read the series in a while but im pretty sure it was in the same continuity as the Sandman and Lucifer series. If so then FotF only holds his position as 'Devil' because Lucifer grew tired of Hell and decided to leave. FotF is very powerful but he is nowhere near Lucifer and therefore nowhere near Presence/God

But then again I could be wrong

It was in Hellblazer I think. Not Sandman.

Lucifer Morningstar is undoubtly stronger than FotF. But he's still one tough SOB, lol.

#74 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9450 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

And wait, im pretty sure the trinity of hell cured Constantine of his cancer.....

#75 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

And wait, im pretty sure the trinity of hell cured Constantine of his cancer.....

Maybe it wasn't cancer then... he did cure John of SOMETHING, 100%.

#76 Posted by Dratini1331 (6978 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: That's not cunning, it's strong arm negotiations. It's not like he has really that many more actual feats than the doctor, and as I've said elsewhere, the groups the Doctor fights are often as close to scientifically omnipotent as it gets.

#77 Edited by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio
#78 Posted by The_Imperator (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: By the definition of omnipotent (all = omni, potent=power), the FotF either cannot be beaten, or is more powerful than the Presence and Lucifer. And since we have to assume he couldn't over power the Presence, since he fell, he is not omnipotent. Omnipresent would mean that the FotF could never be covertly approached, never outmaneuvered, and always would know exactly what his enemies were doing and thus be able to counter it.

#79 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9450 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

FotF cannot be omnipotent. The wiki article is wrong. Omnipotent means all powerful and you can't have two all-powerful beings existing at once. One will have to be weaker even if the difference is minuscule.

And I know it was in Hellblazer but Sandman and the Lucifer series exist in the same universe. Also, I just read up on it here and Constantine was cured of his cancer by tricking the First,second, and third of the fallen like I thought. He had no interaction with the presence

#80 Edited by Dratini1331 (6978 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: I've read it before, it's just that honestly, John = Doctor = Master = Yawgmoth = Urza IMO. They're the top of prep in my book.

#81 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: By the definition of omnipotent (all = omni, potent=power), the FotF either cannot be beaten, or is more powerful than the Presence and Lucifer. And since we have to assume he couldn't over power the Presence, since he fell, he is not omnipotent. Omnipresent would mean that the FotF could never be covertly approached, never outmaneuvered, and always would know exactly what his enemies were doing and thus be able to counter it.

I know what omnipotent means. Anywho, maybe you're right and FotF isn't omnipotent. But he's very close to being omnipotent (Living Tribunal for example isn't omnipotent, and was also defeated).

Omnipresent means he's pretty much everywhere at the same time.

@the_red_viper:

FotF cannot be omnipotent. The wiki article is wrong. Omnipotent means all powerful and you can't have two all-powerful beings existing at once. One will have to be weaker even if the difference is minuscule.

And I know it was in Hellblazer but Sandman and the Lucifer series exist in the same universe. Also, I just read up on it here and Constantine was cured of his cancer by tricking the First,second, and third of the fallen like I thought. He had no interaction with the presence

Well the Wiki says omnipotent demonic powers-I dunno what the F it means but FotF is beyond doubt extremely powerful, and for a man to be able to kill him is very impressive.

I looked it up. The Presence cured him from some sort of taint, not cancer. Either way, we know that The Presence acknowledges the fact the John can be a serious threat to him, which is a huge feat by itself.

#82 Edited by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: I've read it before, it's just that honestly, John = Doctor = Master = Yawgmoth = Urza IMO. They're the top of prep in my book.

Fair enough

#83 Edited by The_Imperator (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: You can't be close to omnipotence. Either you have infinite power, or you are infinitely far away from it. And if John can threaten the Presence at all, then the Presence is not omnipotent either.

#84 Edited by Dratini1331 (6978 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

FotF cannot be omnipotent. The wiki article is wrong. Omnipotent means all powerful and you can't have two all-powerful beings existing at once. One will have to be weaker even if the difference is minuscule.

And I know it was in Hellblazer but Sandman and the Lucifer series exist in the same universe. Also, I just read up on it here and Constantine was cured of his cancer by tricking the First,second, and third of the fallen like I thought. He had no interaction with the presence

You can't even have one all powerful beings:

"Can he make a rock so large he cannot lift it?"

Omnipotence doesn't necessarily have to literally mean that they can do anything, or that they are the most powerful. Most of the time, characters that are omnipotent are just characters that fall under certain categories, like creating an omniverse/multiverse/universe or being able to have total control over an omniverse/multiverse/universe.

For instance, Elder God Demon Bane can will things into existence, while Super Tengen Toppa Guren Lagann cannot, there fore EGDB is omnipotent, and Lagann is not. Other characters with the same traits could perform feats that make them omnipotent.

#85 Posted by The_Imperator (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@dratini1331: No... that's not how you define omnipotence. Omnipotence, even as a theoretical that doesn't make sense, simply means all powerful. As in, no limits.

#86 Edited by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: You can't be close to omnipotence. Either you have infinite power, or you are infinitely far away from it. And if John can threaten the Presence at all, then the Presence is not omnipotent either.

First of all, there is such a thing as nigh-omnipotence, for example the Living Tribunal. And The Presence is omnipotent. He is DC's equivilant of The One Above All. And yet, John is a threat to him.

@dratini1331: No... that's not how you define omnipotence. Omnipotence, even as a theoretical that doesn't make sense, simply means all powerful. As in, no limits.

Well people that can fly and shoot lazers out of his eyes don't make sense either, but it's just comics man. Fictional characters.

#87 Posted by The_Imperator (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator said:

@the_red_viper: You can't be close to omnipotence. Either you have infinite power, or you are infinitely far away from it. And if John can threaten the Presence at all, then the Presence is not omnipotent either.

First of all, there is such a thing as nigh-omnipotence, for example the Living Tribunal. And The Presence is omnipotent. He is DC's equivilant of The One Above All. And yet, John is a threat to him.

Nigh-omnipotent means you have a lot of power. However, infinite power is always infinitely above any kind of finite power, even finite power that is ridiculously large.

If John is a threat, then the Presence is not omnipotent. You cannot threaten an omnipotent, it is that simple. Either a being is omnipotent and can do whatever it wants with no one being able to be more than dust, or said being is not omnipotent.

#88 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:

@the_imperator said:

@the_red_viper: You can't be close to omnipotence. Either you have infinite power, or you are infinitely far away from it. And if John can threaten the Presence at all, then the Presence is not omnipotent either.

First of all, there is such a thing as nigh-omnipotence, for example the Living Tribunal. And The Presence is omnipotent. He is DC's equivilant of The One Above All. And yet, John is a threat to him.

Nigh-omnipotent means you have a lot of power. However, infinite power is always infinitely above any kind of finite power, even finite power that is ridiculously large.

If John is a threat, then the Presence is not omnipotent. You cannot threaten an omnipotent, it is that simple. Either a being is omnipotent and can do whatever it wants with no one being able to be more than dust, or said being is not omnipotent.

Tell that to The Presence, then...

#89 Edited by The_Imperator (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: If John is a threat to the Presence, then it/he is not omnipotent. It is that simple. There is no "tell that to the Presence," it just means anyone in universe who says the Presence is omnipotent doesn't know what they are talking about.

#90 Posted by ComicStooge (12001 posts) - - Show Bio

52 John would just drag The Doctor through time and space against his will and make him his slave.

@the_red_viper: If John is a threat to the Presence, then it/he is not omnipotent. It is that simple. There is no "tell that to the Presence," it just means anyone in universe who says the Presence is omnipotent doesn't know what they are talking about.

The Presence is omnipotent, but even he has rules and morals.

God is supposed to be the "good guy" remember?

#91 Posted by The_Imperator (1886 posts) - - Show Bio
#92 Posted by _Cerberus_ (3436 posts) - - Show Bio

The Audience/Viewers.

#93 Edited by NeonGameWave (7700 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

#94 Edited by Pipxeroth (500 posts) - - Show Bio

What about imps? Could they take him?

#95 Edited by TheTvTuner (1 posts) - - Show Bio

Madoka

#96 Edited by The_Imperator (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

What about imps? Could they take him?

The 5D imps from DC? Since they can leave the story, then yes, they could probably do it. Although... With prep, the Doctor might be able to cook something up, since SBoy Prime was able to take down Mxy.

#97 Edited by Dratini1331 (6978 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator: It totally can change based on who wishes to utilize it and how they wish to define it. It does literally mean "all powerful", yes. However, when we slot characters into groupings, we end up with "omnipotence" as a classification. People who fall under that category are labeled as such.

#98 Posted by The_Imperator (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@dratini1331: Personally, I just don't use the term. "Ridiculously powerful" works, as does "galaxy-level," "universe-level," "multiverse-level," etc. But I guess that's just my opinion when talking about the best ways to compare power levels.

#99 Posted by Jmarshmallow (3593 posts) - - Show Bio

The fact that you made this thread must mean that The Doctor is very powerful? I've never seen the series, so I'll just choose some characters that really can't lose:

Franklin Richards-Mutant who can basically do anything if he just got a grip on his powers.

Superman Prime One Million-Same Thing as above, Only he has knowledge on literally everything in the universe.

Zoom- Someone who can manipulate time through a machine, vs someone who manipulates time via his own body.

Spawn? Probably. Pretty sure he took down God and Satan at the same time, then trapped them in an infinite loop where all they can do is fight each other. Been awhile since I read anything from him.

John Constantine, with prep definitely, without prep more than likely, since one of his powers is literally making luck go his way. The plot armor is strong in this one.

Batman-Because, well, um...he's Batman.

And finally, I find your lack of Squirrel Girl's unlimited plot armor....disturbing....

Jmarshmallow

#100 Posted by The_Imperator (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

Zoom- Someone who can manipulate time through a machine, vs someone who manipulates time via his own body.

John Constantine, with prep definitely, without prep more than likely, since one of his powers is literally making luck go his way. The plot armor is strong in this one.

Batman-Because, well, um...he's Batman.

Zoom fails

Constantine is up against someone with just as much plot armor, if not more.

Batman loses too, sadly.