Who can beat Lord Beerus?

@i_am_lightning: I have seen the Atom ride telephone waves and get into more obscure things...he uses his size to ride on particles and other really small things which imo I see no reason why he can't sneak his way into Beerus system. Captain Atom new 52 shrunk down and destroyed cancer at the cellular level. I think these are good counters to most any OP hero.

@citizensentry: Imperfect Cell already pointed that out, and I figured out more about toon force. Thanks still though.

I have seen the movie, no need to worry about spoilers. They don't do anything past star level.

What reason is not irrelevant at all. Tell me what reason does Whis (I'll take Gods out) have to lie about his students capabilities and the damage he is capable of dishing out. By saying the reason is irrelevant is simply ignoring the question since we have no reasons to doubt a statement from Whis other that trying to play the "feats" card. Which doesn't work when one realizes that statements can and will be just as valid as feats in numerous circumstances.

The same reason as why hulk isn't the strongest one there is, koro sensei isn't omnipotent, and gotoh isn't invincible. Whis is no authority on galaxy level, the best we've seen him around is star level.

The funny part is, you don't even realize you're making your case impossible by saying most statements are valid basis to go on. By that logic, thanos took attacks from omnipotents, and bills's chances are still effectively null.

First point isn't a strong reason.

...Every showing in the manga ever isn't a strong reason. Are you even reading what you're typing?

Numerous characters have no feats on the level their accused of being at yet credible Viners all agree that they are at said level due to numerous statements that were used to flesh out their character. Why would we use double standards when it comes to DBZ?

Like who, if I may ask? And I'm actually asking you to drop the double standards, not the other way around. Unbacked hype is never considered a valid argument.

I wasn't using double standards with Sentry. Simply stating that his case is not as simple as immediately accepting what's been said about him due to his history. As for Odin depending upon who you ask he would be omnipotent, and I've seen valid reasons given as to why. But he's not the focus for this conversation so I'll drop it.

Very well.

It would be considering just how much power Beerus has access to. I think you need to consider just how much work it takes for a being like Beerus to hold himself back as much as he does so galactic destruction doesn't happen everytime he fights.

It takes him no effort to ensure prevention of galactic destruction, since he's a multi-star buster - he'll need need billions of years to actually damage one significantly.

I'm guessing he would be exhausted if that's the first bracing workout he's had in a millennial lol. The fact that he had woken up out of his sleep not too long ago, and from what we know had no real opponents to battle over the course of his reign, combined with the excitement of facing a foe such as Goku and relying on his heavily suppressed power to battle on par with Goku (he could have beaten him within an instant) then I guess he would be tired at the end all things considered.

...he was using over half his full power according to himself, that's not much holding back.

Allowing for scaling and potency off previous feats would only prove my case.

It really doesn't. The best feat ki blasts have is destroying planets, you'll be able to scale him to star-multi-star level. You're better off using his direct showing instead of all that effort, lol.

Not necessarily. Statements can stand on their own, if we have no reason to doubt them. Cell was always a solar system buster from the moment Akira wrote that infamous statement. The guidebooks were only needed to convince the holdouts and anti-DBZ fanbase that what Akira wrote (surprise, surprise the writer of the series wasn't lying -_-) was the truth. And in this case that's the situation.

The guidebook is what akira wrote, without it, cell statement is just outlying hype.

Not in the slightest. Are you telling me that if I expand my characters power in the form of statements then my character's power is no longer valid? That I've wasted my time drawing every last panel and forming every last statement about said characters power only for you to brush aside everything I've said because you don't trust me? And who says the star busting feat is all we go off of? We go by all forms of evidence on these forums, statements included. Would you accept the galaxy busting statement if Akira was telling you the same thing I am?

As long as you own the series, and don't contradict yourself, that's alright.

Out of curiosity, since you're so insistent that author statements are always valid and say there are no double standards, you will also say superman beats bills because the writers said 'he'll always find a way and prevail'?

That may have been the case before this movie, but things change.

They didn't do anything past star level in the movie unless I dozed off a few minutes during. nothing changed.

The sad part is, thanos has taken attacks from characters who have vastly surpassed galaxy level on-panel, and yet I'm not insisting on them because I know they're outlying by his standards. But you're adamant on 'galaxy level by statements even if the best feat in series is double star level' will be enough to beat him.

@princearagorn1: I'd also like to say that Xenoverse and Dragon Ball Online are apparently canon. So feats/lore in those games (which I'll bring up if I need to) also further boost my case of Beerus being a galaxy buster at 100%. We have no legit reason to doubt Whis claim at this point.

@micah: ? there were no feats/ lore in dragon ball online on beerus. Xenoverse never said anything about beerus destroying a galaxy. The only claim, is apparently in ressercution of f. Which might be true who knows.

@micah: You just said it again. -_- "feats/lore in both games can be used to boost my case", what feats and lore, i don't remember any while playing. "Xenoverse we have several examples that boost the credibility of Whis statement." Again what examples, i don't remember any.

There was literally no mention of Beerus in dbo, especially since it closed down before battle of gods anyway.

@micah: I understand. The only credible claim, is that he can destroy galaxies in resseruction of f. But it tires him out. Apparently this is what whis says. Which would put Beerus at low skyfather if true. Odin doesn't seem bothered about destroying multiple galaxys.

Thank you. That's the claim that was said in the movie by Whis; an act of destruction on that level would completely tire him out.

@micah: It doesn't really change much tbh if it is true, i never thought he can beat odin. Who wont tire from destroying multiple galaxies.

@jesusthesefanboys: Likewise I never thought he could take Odin anyway, nor do I loose any sleep over the fact that he can't. I clearly know the limits of the characters I like when I debate for them. I just want to make it clear that I believe the statement is true because Whis has given us no reason to not trust his word, and we know Whis can control time to correct unnecessary destruction caused at the hands of Beerus. It's not like he's lied before so I don't know why we wouldn't believe Beerus could galaxy bust at max if he defines his students limits and says what would happen afterwards.

@laflux: Yah.

@jesusthesefanboys: Yo, i saw the movie, And Whis states he is a galaxy buster, and alludes to fact he may have actually busted a galaxy in the past (possibly Kaioshin realm), before Whis prevented it by turning back time. And Galaxy busting is def not effortless for Beerus. It would put him to sleep for a very long time. However Odin to Galaxy bust requires OdinForce and OPs restrictions ban it. BTW Whis is like 1000 times stronger then Beerus, However i wouldnt rule Beerus out from beating Odin. Beerus is still infinitely more skilled in battle and faster. Whis would curbstomp both of them though because of the inevitable damage they could cause. He would put them into the Odinsleep and Egyptian cat sleep respectively.

@overwarrior: True true, i shouldn't rule him out so quick, but at least we can say he is on that level.

Oh man, this is where Akira Toriyama put that Piccolo statement in the movie.

That's cool to know.Now, I can legitimately know Beerus is galaxy level instead of the trailer used in BoG.

Mini rant:Funny how people call it a hyperbole despite the fact that Whis is mostly objective on the most part and that Whis is not even arrogant or a liar.

I'm an advocate DB supporter, but I don't see where people are getting galaxy level from. I've seen Fukkatsu no F and nothing is ever said pertaining to someone busting a galaxy or being capable of it. The highest statement we have is from BoGs with Whis saying Beerus can wipe out the solar system in an instant if angered.

@bats16: Where did you see it i saw at La premier and at beginning of movie Whis mentioned how he turned back time because either (incase Beerus blows up Galaxy, or he did) my japenese isnt perfect.

Let the dbz hate live! lol

Once again, when it comes to dbz people get scared and hate. Beerus is a galaxy buster. You don't like it? too bad. People hate that their favorite characters are easily being surpassed. And there is a new series coming to? lol

Beerus wrecks thanos. Thanos has never fought anyone with the COMBAT SPEED of a dbz character. thousands of planet level punches to his face. Show me thanos consistantly dodging FTL planetary punches one after the other. Don't show me a character trying to blitz with one punch.

I wanna see hands flying like birds.

Japan. Flew out there the last week in April and saw it. I recall Whis saying he turned back time because Beerus blew up two suns, which made it extremely dark in the temple. I don't recall him ever saying anything about Beerus blowing up a galaxy or being able to.

@bats16: Ya that part happened to, but the part im talking about was later on way to fight frieza, I know the edition they showed in LA since it was a premier was a directors cut so maybe that could be why.

@micah:

"I'm sorry what? What does Hulk, Koro, and Gotoh have to do with this? Whis stated his pupil could destroy the galaxy if he used every ounce of his power in one shot that would require Beerus to go immediately to sleep afterwards."

Their relevance is about the validity of statements.

"Case closed."

The case was closed from the start. Bills is established to multi-star bust, that's where he was, and is.

"Again why are you trying to complicate this? Whis stated at full power Beerus could destroy a galaxy........what's so hard to accept about this. Give me reason as to why we shouldn't take Whis statement seriously.........they have existed for thousands of years keeping the cycle of rebirth and destruction......again I ask what reason would Whis have to lie about his students capabilities and even state what would happen after Beerus uses every ounce of his power?"

Where is the complication? Your case is bills can beat thanos. It's extremely unlikely if we go by showings, and impossible if you accept statements. Your pick.

"No you may not ask. What you think now I'm lying lol? I understand unbacked hype is never considered a valid argument.....too bad that same logic can't be applied here. This is once again a case of Cell stating he could destroy the solar system with his power and holdouts (lowballers) thinking Akira didn't know what he was writing. Once again what Akira wrote/supervised in the script is the final order."

Since you don't want to clarify what you were talking about, nor elaborate so I can explain the examples you were thinking of, there's no reason to continue this point.

"Considering no galaxies were harmed in the making of the fight. I'd say it classifies as holding back."

That's more than 50 percent of his power, by his own admission. Twice that is not even a billionth of galaxy level

"Now I'm wondering if your reading what I'm typing. This point was never about what we see them destroying it was me proving my case about potency/ki control. Something you have yet to effectively counter."

If you paid more attention, you can see that I am reading and replying accordingly.

"Really so you could give a damn about what Akira wrote is that it? Not trying to sound hostile but....wow....we even see Cell attempt to destroy the solar system (which thankfully was thwarted by Gohan) yet it's still just hype without the guidebook to back it up?"

It's a good thing you're not trying to be hostile. Because you're making the same argument used against the cell statement. Cell's statement was not "I'm going to destroy the solar system". It was "I have gathered enough ki to blow away the entire solar system". Either of which is very much a hyperbole for a series of planet buster, considering he'll also need to destroy the star.

"Then please tell me how has Akira contradicted himself when it comes to the God tiers and the whole argument of Ki control."

All the showings in the manga put bills at multi star level, making galaxy level hype at best.

"Nope. Not taking the bait, especially since you used Superman as an example. Don't want a storm to come upon my notifications."

...how is that a bait again? Since you already said you're keeping the debate focused, you can ignore the obvious derail attempts by some users and answer the simple yes or no question.

"They don't need to do anything in the first place to be galaxy level."

Of course they do.

"It's not like we need to see a galaxy being destroyed in the first place for characters to be considered galaxy level."

All the stars of a galaxy. The galactic core. Or galaxy spanning battle. Significant damage. Something that even remotely matters to a galaxy. not just a star or two.

"And what does this add to the conversation? I could easily tear this statement apart, I just wanna know why you wrote this in the first place. If anything what you just wrote just proves they never attacked Thanos with that level of output."

By all means, tear away. What I am saying is thanos actually has several showings of taking hits from explicitly galaxy+ characters, but they're dismissed as they're outlying. Yet you're worried about dbz underestimation because utterly unbacked hype is being disregarded.

@micah:

"That's nice. Now tie that into the Gods and more specifically Whis himself. Please give examples as to why I shouldn't trust Whis word in regards to his own student."

Elaborate.

"No. My case is Beerus is a galaxy buster at max. Which once again you have yet to disprove, try again."

It's your case, which you have to prove. Not I have to disprove. The proof required is bills blowing up a galaxy, like buu blowing up the earth.

"I couldn't have said it any simpler. "credible Viners all agree that they are at said level due to numerous statements that were used to flesh out their character". No need to elaborate on a point you'd just try to nit pick honestly. All you need to know is that the double standards should honestly stop at this point when it comes to DBZ."

I have no idea who you classify 'credible viners'. I have no idea were involved. There's no way to check on where or what they agreed on. You're being extremely vague here, to the point it's not even an argument.

"Hype has nothing to do with this. It's a credible statement from a valid source, and a source that has no reason to lie at that."

What credible source again? Whis doesn't hasn't shown anything putting him on a billionth of galaxy level. How is he a valid source?

"Yet you still continue to ignore the fact that Whis stated he was a galaxy buster at 100% and even alludes to the fact that he's had to rewind time in the past to fix it. If you can't prove Whis is not to be taken as a credible source then this debate is pointless considering you have no leg to stand on, something you probably knew going in."

...You're confused between two instances here. He rewinded time to stop bills from destroying two stars.

"I'm well aware of what the statement actually was."

If you say so.

"Now please explain why the statement was valid."

Because it was confirmed by the guidebook.

"Please explain how your going to ignore the writer of the series since you know more than the creator apparently and can gauge his characters in the opposite direction of what was intended."

Very salty. Moving on.

"You know very well why it's bait. Switch the example character."

Unless you are going to start flaming at the mention of superman, it's not a bait. You're avoiding a very simple question here.

"Dismissed for what reason? Again Thanos taking hits from galaxy level characters simply means he wasn't attacked with that level of output. Otherwise he'd be dead."

So you're fine characters with actual showings of repeatedly taking hits from multigalaxy level opponents not having galaxy level durability, but you have a problem when a statement with a grand total zero showings to back a billionth of the stated level it is not accepted. If there are double standards, they're clearly heavily favoring dbz.

"Hey have you heard of this thing called Ki control............again DBZ warriors don't fight like that, at least not yet. Either you accept what the author has written in/supervised as fact or you don't and admit you don't consider the writer the ultimate authority on the subject at hand. Either way your answer can end this whole thing in the next reply."

Either you accept their showings, the only valid basis, or you accept character statements even when they're utterly baseless in regards to showings - just to be clear, that goes for all the series: omnipotent sentry, casual universe busting madara, omnipotent koro, planet busting whitebeard and so on.

Yubel with prep.

Superman

Naruto

@micah: when did Whis state that Beerus can destroy a Galaxy? are you talking about the English dub? because that's a miss translation, in the original Japanese dub whis says Solar system

@le0nhart: In 'Resurrection of F' it was stated as I've been told and have checked with multiple sources to have it confirmed. It apparently was stated in the movie, but in the Director's Cut.

i see, how legit is that information? and does he say "can" or "did"

Everyone I asked said it happened in the director's cut if that truly was the version that was broadcast in the states ahead of time. Whis apparently calmed Goku and Vegeta's nerves about fighting on Earth at full power and states he turned back time in the past when Beerus did/or in case he did blow up a galaxy one of my sources says the word galaxy was used but couldn't make out whether can or did was said. Whis then goes on to state an act of destruction on that level would exhaust Beerus to the point that he'd have to go to sleep for a long time, thus heavily implying that he did in fact destroy galaxies in the past.

@micah:

1.It's your case that bills is galaxy level. You're giving a statement and asking me to disprove it - it's your statement, you have to prove it first.

2. Why is whis credible source on galaxy level? He's himself star-multi star level, even that by scaling.

"This point was never an argument to begin with. I simply stated I've seen 'credible viners' or you could say alumni members accept statements such as the one Whis stated about Beerus as valid evidence when it comes to numerous other characters."

You're refusing to say which statements, which viners, where they accepted it, or anything. How is that even a point without literally any details?

"My goodness man he's his teacher. He's trained him for thousands of years and has assisted in keeping the cycle of rebirth and destruction."

...Good for him. Question is what qualifies his statement on galaxy level.

"Whis even displays his time manipulation at the end of the movie and earlier alludes to having to manipulate time to stop Beerus from committing galactic destruction on a daily basis."

I have to ask for screen shots, or some sort of proof here. Because you seem to be mixing up two instances here, and forming a very inaccurate mess.

1. Whis rewinded time to restore two suns at bills temple.

2. Away from bills temple, say, in a random galaxy whis has no reason to undo bills doing what is his job description.

3. I am skeptical if the dialogue was even present in the movie. So I have to ask for your source.

But if he actually does say that he rewinded time to undo destruction of a galaxy, I am fine with accepting that.

"Akira himself even compares Beerus to a Supernova, Black Hole, Galaxy's dying, ect."

...considering how far apart the things you mentioned are, it looks like another 'million exploding suns' instance.

"The burden of proof is on your end to prove why I shouldn't trust Whis word."

The other way around. You need whis's word to stand in order to support your case. As far as I see, whis claiming galaxy level is equivalent to madara claiming universe level. Or cell claiming solar system level, if the guidebook wasn't present. Or white beard claiming planet level. In order to prove any such statement, you need showings even close to the hype.

"Please don't cop out. Salt is the last thing on my mind."

Surprising, considering salt is the only thing present in that statement. And speaking if cop outs:

"It's not me i'm worried about it's others."

No one jumped at me for mentioning superman.

"How many times must I say it. All that means is Thanos wasn't attacked with that level of output, and the same goes for DBZ. Had Beerus attacked Goku with his galaxy level output the Saiyan would have died nigh instantly. "

You don't have to repeat, just grasping the point is enough - even with actual showings thanos is not portrayed at the level you're trying to put bills on - with no showings at all. Settling the double standard issue.

"Your problem is that you believe Whis needs to go around killing galaxies before he can be taken as a credible source. Yet on the flip side you haven't proven why we should ignore his word. If you can't prove why he shouldn't be taken as a credible source then your just dragging this out."

...it's not my task to disprove whatever you say. You bring up a source, it's up to you to show it's valid. The flip side doesn't even matter - my stand doesn't have any relevance to the hype at all, since I am going by showings directly.

"So far every other statement/explanation from Whis has been valid so why should we discount this one. Whis practically states he's capable of reacting and blitzing someone before a synapses could reach their brain telling them to react to him, and demonstrated this by blitzing the hell out of Goku and Vegeta. And this is just one example, yet you want me to ignore his input why?

...Do you not see that you just gave a statement backed by a showing, and I'm fine with accepting that? Post any panel from the manga, bog or rof that shows a hundredth of galaxy level. Heck, show a billionth for a start.

People overestimate the absolute shit out of DBZ characters.

I don't see anyone actually PROVING Beerus is a galaxy buster.

There is no proof, just statement. Beerus is multi-star level at max, not more. A galaxy is composed of billions of stars. Beerus hasn't showed a fraction of the power to destroy a galaxy

Zoom.

Couldn't have said it better. I haven't seen anyone prove why Whis statement wouldn't be credible in the first place. You ask for proof there you go, couldn't get any easier. It's not like destroying a galaxy for him is a casual act anyway. It takes everything he's got.

@micah:

"The statement was already proved."

Ah. Present the proof here then, problem solved.

"It came from a credible source and as such I'm inclined to believe it."

You haven't presented any credible source yet.

"It's now up to you to provide me with necessary reason not to for the umpteenth time."

You're the one bringing up whis, you need his credibility to be a fact. I don't.

"I keep saying why he's a credible source."

Oh, that solves everything. You saying it makes it a fact! Nope.

"Your mistake is that you falsely believe Whis needs to be galaxy level himself for his statement on something he's witnessed to be credible."

Not something he witnessed, something he thinks.

"Faulty logic like that is the reason the Battle Forums are so toxic since people stubbornly hold onto their skewed views and made up rules."

Pot. Kettle. Black.

"I told you what statements."

No. You didn't. What you said was:

"No you may not ask. What you think now I'm lying lol?"

Right as I said statements similar to what Whis said about Beerus, in other-words a credible source making a claim about another character.

The credibility is not present.

"Case in point if Superman says this guy is as fast as Flash is then everyone automatically accepts it, you probably would to."

And when bills said whis was stronger than him, everyone believed him. Because superman knows flash. Whis, a star buster by scaling, doesn't have the credibility to talk on galaxy level. New 52 Superman's statement handling exploding stars without an issue is disregarded for the same reason.

"Please drop the double standards."

Right back at you.

"The ones making an inaccurate mess are the people who hold double standards when it comes to certain characters."

...you, in this case.

"And even when other commentators have said that the statement was said still refuse to believe it and attempting to make an argument out of nothing.....such as you. I can't give you scans as I don't have access to the movie (I made this clear earlier)."

What other commentators? Overwarrior, who also said whis is like a thousand times stronger than bills? I saw the movie myself, and I don't remember this happening. Which may be attention lapse on my part, or director's cut only. So proof is required.

"Stop comparing things that have nothing in common."

Looks like I have to elaborate the connection. the thing in common is a claim by a supposedly credible source to be over billions of times stronger than the best showing in the manga.

"Madara clearly has evidence you can use to disprove a claim of him being universal. So if you were arguing Madara wasn't universal then you could actually make a case unlike now. You have nothing to use against Whis to discredit his word other than you possible just refusing to believe DBZ is at that level."

What evidence is that again?

"You have to be dense."

You have no right to call anyone dense after failing to see simple connections as above.

"I grasped your "point" from your first statement on the subject matter. Thanos has nothing to do with Beerus. How has he helped your case?"

If you are not dense, and actually grasped the point as you claimed, figuring it out is child's play. "................I've been very patient with you."

Likewise.

"I've explained my side and have proven why Whis is a credible source"

No. You haven't. Right now what you're using is a guy talking about things that are leagues and leagues beyond where he is by scaling.

"and as such why we should believe his statement as we have no reason not to. The burden of proof for this whole argument has been waiting on you to provide a shred of reason for me to doubt Whis word. You actually want me to take your "empty" words over a character's dialogue written/supervised in the script by Akira himself and has nothing to contradict it. This argument has become bothersome for me so I'll give you one last chance to prove your case."

'Bills is galaxy buster' is your case. Not mine. The burden of proof is on you. From the start, till the end. Your entire argument comes down to 'oh this guy who should be a star buster by scaling thinks he can perform several billion fold better, he must be right'. Garbage.

However, if your argument is the galaxy instance was explained same as the two stars instance - turning back time and all that, I accept that. But as far as I recall of the movie, no such dialogue was present. Looks like false info to me. So the only way out of this is to wait till you can actually post screen shots to back up what you're saying.

Once again people the statement was in fact said. Whis not only stated he could just turn back time to fix destruction on that level but also even said what would happen to Beerus if he used power on that level. Case in point he would have to go to sleep since destroying a galaxy would require every ounce of his power. He's galaxy level at max and that's were he stops, end of story lol.

I'm guessing all the high intelects or very powerful could beat him so here goes with my small list :-P .

With prep: Dr Doom, Thanos, Reed Richards, Batman, Darkseid

With strength: World War Hulk, Darkseid, Superman Prime, Trion Juggernaut, Doomsday

@johnnyeli: Bills has casually destroyed planets

He is stronger than WWhulk, Juggernat, Darkseid and Doomsday

Thanos

Every time this character is shown he does something ridiculous. First movie: flies through and destroys a bunch of planets. Second movie: busts several suns and I've heard sneezes a planet away. Potentially true galaxy level talk. If he gets an episode or two in the new series who knows what crazy feats he'll do next. He has a limit but what that will be confirmed to be I have no idea. For this, thanos seems like a good answer...for now.

@jesusthesefanboys: you know what, i've never seen a scan of odin destroying a galaxy...could you post some ?