WF Mxy vs Lucifer Morningstar

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heymanjack

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#1  Edited By heymanjack

Who wins this one?

No Morals.

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Saren

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#2  Edited By Saren

Lucifer tricks Mxy into forfeiting all his powers.

Hey, the Joker did it.

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MagneticShockwave

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#3  Edited By MagneticShockwave

Does Lucifer really have to trick Mxy for a win?

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heymanjack

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#4  Edited By heymanjack

WF Mxy EASILY destroyed the DC Multiverse. He can put up a fight against Lucifer.

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TrueIlluminatus

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#5  Edited By TrueIlluminatus

I don't understand why Lucy is even used in battle threads anymore. 

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Albertphytagoras

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Stalemate.

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Beware_My_Power

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@illuminatus: because Michael, and some of the endless are still above him in terms of power. At least in DC

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ShaoKahn

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lucifer stomps . LM and tanked the blast which was powerful enough to wipe of the every creation ( Omniversal big bang ) without a scratch . MXY gets stomped

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ShaoKahn

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@leo-343: lol . that's true though . I didn't read the OP

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bdelloidgrain2

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Lucifer wins. He and his brother Michael are responsible for creating everything in DC and Vertigo comica, including Mxy and his power. It is all part of the Demiurgic power, which Lucifer is equal too

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TifaLockhart

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@bdelloidgrain2: I guess Dr. Frankenstein is more powerful than his monster then? And Darkseid is more powerful than Stayne, yes?

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bdelloidgrain2

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@tifalockhart: That's different. Mxy's power is a part of the Demiurgic power bestowed within Michael, which Michael has complete and absolute control over. It is the building block for everything and all power. Michael's power is only rivaled.by his brothers, Lucifer.

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Chad_Duby

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#14  Edited By Chad_Duby

Lucifer.

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TifaLockhart

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@bdelloidgrain2: I'll concede the Frankenstein example but how is Darkseid/Stayne any different when Darkseid literally created Stayne out of nothing?

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bdelloidgrain2

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@tifalockhart: It is still part of the Demiurgic power. Darkseid used power that emerged from the Demiurge himself. Every single source of power from the DC creation can be sourced back to the Demiurgic power, which Michael has infinite control over.

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RampageTheFirst

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Mxy one shots.

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TifaLockhart

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@bdelloidgrain2: I just proved a being can create a being more powerful than itself. Your argument falls apart.

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bdelloidgrain2

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@tifalockhart: You can. But you cannot create an omnipotent character meaning Mxy cannot be omnipotent.

Read this. It explains the origins of the DC creation

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/michael-demiurgos/4005-12656/

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bdelloidgrain2

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#20  Edited By bdelloidgrain2
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TifaLockhart

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@bdelloidgrain2: I give up. Not for the reason you may think, but because clearly your mind is made up. You're using a wiki as proof.

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bdelloidgrain2

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@tifalockhart: No I'm not. I just don't think it's possible for there to be two supreme Gods in a creation. Who would win then WF Mxy or WF Batmite?

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TifaLockhart

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@bdelloidgrain2: No one would win between two omnipotents. Infinity minus infinity is infinity.

But I've said I'm done so I'll stop.

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bdelloidgrain2

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#24  Edited By bdelloidgrain2

@tifalockhart: Then they are not actually omnipotent are they? If neither of them can win, then that is a restriction on both of them, automatically debunking their omnipotence.

Also, what about the Presence? I showed multiple scans proving his omnipotence and Rampage just kept ignoring me stating that he isn't omnipotent. So you tell me, is the Oresence omnipotent as well?

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Sungsam

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#25  Edited By Sungsam

With so many people lowballing DC's God tiers on Comicvine just because of 'muh inconsistency' we really don't have time to deal with a thread like this right now.

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TifaLockhart

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Sungsam

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#27  Edited By Sungsam

@tifalockhart said:

@sungsam: Who do you think wins?

Depends on your interpretation and what you want to accept. DC's Cosmology and God Tiers are so insanely complex with holes cosmologies by different writers to measure its Multiversal characters, I can't give you a proper answer without honestly admitting there are literally holes in every interpretation no matter what you think.

Also, there is no difference between a WF Mxy and a normal Mxy. The Mxy that gets shitty low showings every now and then because of some stupid writers is literally the same Mxy in World's Funniest and all his appearances.

And, there is no difference between the Lucifer by Mike Carrey and the one shown in Demon Knights. It's like how we get the Multiversal Lucifer Morningstar in Vertigo, but in Demon Knights/N52, Lucifer is nothing more than a fucking wimpy sky father level hell lord. Why? Because different fucking writers.

I can't answer you, I think any regular DC fan truly knows that inside.

Let me give an example, WF Mxy destroyed all the numbered dimensions and Lucifer shaped the DC Omniverse which has these numbered dimensions as well, but these dimensions are not consistent across DC's history.

However, Grant Morrison's Cosmology is not infinite dimensional as anyone can see on that DC Multiverse map, but Jim Matteis writes the cosmology as being infinite dimensional, another says that it is around 100,000 dimensions. We know through so many scans in newer DC comics and older ones that DC has infinite dimensions and shits all over Grant Morrison's string theory based finite dimensional cosmology.

I'm planning to write a thesis on a COMPOSITE DC Cosmology, that accepts all explanations of DC's Cosmology and taking all the good positive ones to the highest fullest and ignoring the low showings of DC's cosmology.

But I'm honestly not in the mood of a DC Cosmic vs DC Cosmic thread right now. This shit is all based on interpretation.

It would follow however that a shitty low showing lowballed Mxy would beat a low showing DC Lucifer.

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TifaLockhart

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@sungsam: Dorkin went on record on Twitter saying that World's Funnest is not canon, thankfully.

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Shinne

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Lucifer should win by in-universe logic.

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TifaLockhart

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@lan_fan: I agree, but feats are what the board cares about.

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Sungsam

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#31  Edited By Sungsam

@tifalockhart said:

@sungsam: Dorkin went on record on Twitter saying that World's Funnest is not canon, thankfully.

Why would it be thankful if World's Funniest is not canon to DC and vice versa however?

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TifaLockhart

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@sungsam: It makes no sense. How does one imp destroy his entire dimension and those higher than his?

It's like a Milk and Cheese comic. Fun to read but not to be taken seriously.

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Sungsam

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#33  Edited By Sungsam

@tifalockhart said:

@lan_fan: I agree, but feats are what the board cares about.

Unfortunately for the board, it is not a constitutional universal rule to determine the power levels of characters from a verse like DC this complex with only feats. As we've seen that every debater, mod and board has different opinions and standards. Any answer could might as well be just as correct as the other.

I mean, that's the same reasoning of fan authority "da rules of da board" argument we get from VSBattles mods to its users who put God Emperor of Mankind above Mxy based on dimensional tiering and because they make the rules, therefore it's correct, even though we have no idea how the dimensions of different fictions work.

It's like the Beyonder vs Hajun issue. Yes, Hajun is only baseline Multiversal while Beyonder is Infinite Dimensional/Cardinal stack levels of Multiversal, but Hajun's Taikyoku counts of power level measures makes him infinitely x infinitely more powerful than other baseline Multiversals that should put him on Beyonder's level without real infinite dimensional feats even! It's vaguey sure, but still possible, it's not as baseless as Demonbane wanking.

Yes, FEATS ARE IMPORTANT, but this is fiction, these are not outright objective determinants all the time. There are perspectives to make character A fodder character B and a reasoning that would contradict that. We cannot outright dismiss the possibility, because WHAT IF Hajun was as powerful as Beyonder using DBZ like power level number logic? That's my example.

Sure, feats.

But unfortunately, because characters who transcend trans-universal and above levels of power start becoming less obvious when analyzing and gauging them, anyone can just say what if we interpret a character's power at face value and gauge with it with said logic?

Why can't we give multiple interpretations that do have basis? Let's give an answer that says by feats Mxy beats Lucifer, but by that blablabla.

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Simon_the_digger

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The Shepard of Suns.

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bdelloidgrain2

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@sungsam: It makes no sense. How does one imp destroy his entire dimension and those higher than his?

It's like a Milk and Cheese comic. Fun to read but not to be taken seriously.

@sungsam said:
@tifalockhart said:

@lan_fan: I agree, but feats are what the board cares about.

Unfortunately for the board, it is not a constitutional universal rule to determine the power levels of characters from a verse like DC this complex with only feats. As we've seen that every debater, mod and board has different opinions and standards. Any answer could might as well be just as correct as the other.

I mean, that's the same reasoning of fan authority "da rules of da board" argument we get from VSBattles mods to its users who put God Emperor of Mankind above Mxy based on dimensional tiering and because they make the rules, therefore it's correct, even though we have no idea how the dimensions of different fictions work.

It's like the Beyonder vs Hajun issue. Yes, Hajun is only baseline Multiversal while Beyonder is Infinite Dimensional/Cardinal stack levels of Multiversal, but Hajun's Taikyoku counts of power level measures makes him infinitely x infinitely more powerful than other baseline Multiversals that should put him on Beyonder's level without real infinite dimensional feats even! It's vaguey sure, but still possible, it's not as baseless as Demonbane wanking.

Yes, FEATS ARE IMPORTANT, but this is fiction, these are not outright objective determinants all the time. There are perspectives to make character A fodder character B and a reasoning that would contradict that. We cannot outright dismiss the possibility, because WHAT IF Hajun was as powerful as Beyonder using DBZ like power level number logic? That's my example.

Sure, feats.

But unfortunately, because characters who transcend trans-universal and above levels of power start becoming less obvious when analyzing and gauging them, anyone can just say what if we interpret a character's power at face value and gauge with it with said logic?

Why can't we give multiple interpretations that do have basis? Let's give an answer that says by feats Mxy beats Lucifer, but by that blablabla.

I would listen to Sungsam! He knows generally what he is talking about.

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deactivated-5e49375365792

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Sungsam

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#37  Edited By Sungsam

@bdelloidgrain2: Oh no, don't praise me too much.

Many posters might think I'm a notch above others when it comes to interpreting and gauging Multiversal power. I'm more of a knack to interpreting Multiversal feats.

My weakness is that I'm far from an expert for any verse I talk about, so I suffer when Demonbane fans bullshit to me about their wank. I'm more of a guy who interprets information, rather than one who gathers it.

I'm still trying to figure out DC's fucked up Cosmology and history. I just finished reading many chapters of Sandman and Lucifer, but I still need to read Convergence after I just finished Multiversity but now amount of reading will theoretically be enough to understand Lucifer's power.

Lucifer's depiction in Demon Nights was just so weird.

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bdelloidgrain2

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#38  Edited By bdelloidgrain2

@sungsam said:

@bdelloidgrain2: Oh no, don't praise me too much.

Many posters might think I'm a notch above others when it comes to interpreting and gauging Multiversal power. I'm more of a knack to interpreting Multiversal feats.

My weakness is that I'm far from an expert for any verse I talk about, so I suffer when Demonbane fans bullshit to me about their wank. I'm more of a guy who interprets information, rather than one who gathers it.

I'm still trying to figure out DC's fucked up Cosmology and history. I just finished reading many chapters of Sandman and Lucifer, but I still need to read Convergence after I just finished Multiversity but now amount of reading will theoretically be enough to understand Lucifer's power.

Lucifer's depiction in Demon Nights was just so weird.

DC's cosmology is pretty complex. I didn't read Demon Knights, was it good?

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Sungsam

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#39  Edited By Sungsam

@bdelloidgrain2 said:
@sungsam said:

@bdelloidgrain2: Oh no, don't praise me too much.

Many posters might think I'm a notch above others when it comes to interpreting and gauging Multiversal power. I'm more of a knack to interpreting Multiversal feats.

My weakness is that I'm far from an expert for any verse I talk about, so I suffer when Demonbane fans bullshit to me about their wank. I'm more of a guy who interprets information, rather than one who gathers it.

I'm still trying to figure out DC's fucked up Cosmology and history. I just finished reading many chapters of Sandman and Lucifer, but I still need to read Convergence after I just finished Multiversity but now amount of reading will theoretically be enough to understand Lucifer's power.

Lucifer's depiction in Demon Nights was just so weird.

DC's cosmology is pretty complex. I didn't read Demon Knights, was it good? Do you think that Lucifer would be able to defeat WF Mxy? It's a pretty difficult battle to debate because these characters are so powerful, DC's cosmology is ridiculous, and WF was meant to be more of a humour thing.

DC's Cosmology is not only complex, it's filled with many holes and bullshit vs other bullshit that bullshits itself. Grant Morrison writes DC's Cosmology to be seemingly 10 dimensional or finite dimensional during his attempt to assert meta shit in DC's Cosmology, but Matteis literally overrode that bullshit and made it infinite dimensional in Justice League Dark. Then some other writer said it was 100,000 dimensional. The hell?

And if DC has infinite dimensions again now, where are these rolled up? In the Bleed? Limbo? Sphere of the Gods?

Then there's the issue of where the DC Metaverse is. Is it still canon? Does it exist in Hypertime? Alongside Hypertime? Was it retconned? Where the hell is it? Most would say that Metaverse and Hypertime and the same thing, but the Metaverse seems a little more complex than Hypertime. We're just playing head-canons at this point.

Presence is credited with creating Main DC in many accounts in non-Vertigo DC, and not once is Lucifer or Michael mentioned in any of them. The only time we hear Lucifer and Michael EVER be created with creating and shaping DC is on Lucifer's spinoff of Sandman and only there in Lucifer's spinoff. Even mainstream Sandman nearly retconned the idea that Lucifer and Michael created DC because Overture literally RETCONS Mike Carrey's account of Creation because it was Father Time and Mother Night who formed creation, not Lucifer and Michael.

Even Sandman is contradicting itself.

And how does Pralaya, Primal Monitor and Mother Night all fit together? They're Void Abstracts, created by different writers in DC, nobody told us how these characters interact they literally contradict each other.

I'm trying to defend DC against the lowballers, but It's difficult for me to defend DC without people pointing out the contradictions and holes, calling me using head-canon. What the hell are we supposed to do? There's nothing else than trying to piece this mess together to make sense of it.

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bdelloidgrain2

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@sungsam said:
@bdelloidgrain2 said:
@sungsam said:

@bdelloidgrain2: Oh no, don't praise me too much.

Many posters might think I'm a notch above others when it comes to interpreting and gauging Multiversal power. I'm more of a knack to interpreting Multiversal feats.

My weakness is that I'm far from an expert for any verse I talk about, so I suffer when Demonbane fans bullshit to me about their wank. I'm more of a guy who interprets information, rather than one who gathers it.

I'm still trying to figure out DC's fucked up Cosmology and history. I just finished reading many chapters of Sandman and Lucifer, but I still need to read Convergence after I just finished Multiversity but now amount of reading will theoretically be enough to understand Lucifer's power.

Lucifer's depiction in Demon Nights was just so weird.

DC's cosmology is pretty complex. I didn't read Demon Knights, was it good? Do you think that Lucifer would be able to defeat WF Mxy? It's a pretty difficult battle to debate because these characters are so powerful, DC's cosmology is ridiculous, and WF was meant to be more of a humour thing.

DC's Cosmology is not only complex, it's filled with many holes and bullshit vs other bullshit that bullshits itself. Grant Morrison writes DC's Cosmology to be seemingly 10 dimensional or finite dimensional during his attempt to assert meta shit in DC's Cosmology, but Matteis literally overrode that bullshit and made it infinite dimensional in Justice League Dark.

And if DC has infinite dimensions again now, where are these rolled up? In the Bleed? Limbo? Sphere of the Gods? The hell.

Then there's the issue of where the DC Metaverse is. Is it still canon? Does it exist in Hypertime? Alongside Hypertime? Was it retconned? Where the hell is it? Most would say that Metaverse and Hypertime and the same thing, but the Metaverse seems a little more complex than Hypertime. We're just playing head-canons at this point.

Presence is credited with creating DC, and not once is Lucifer or Michael mentioned in any of them. The only time we hear Lucifer and Michael EVER be created with creating and shaping DC is on Lucifer's spinoff of Sandman. Even Sandman nearly retconned the idea that Lucifer and Michael created DC because Overture literally RETCONS Mike Carrey's account of Creation because it was Father Time and Mother Night who formed creation, not Lucifer and Michael.

Even Sandman is contradicting itself.

I'm trying to defend DC against the lowballers, but It's difficult for me to defend DC without people pointing out the contradictions and holes, calling me using head-canon. What the hell are we supposed to do? There's nothing else than trying to piece this mess together to make sense of it.

A lot of the writers contradict other writers, mainly because of their writing style. It's difficult to defend DC, that's for sure. A lot of people just assume that it is a simple multiverse, but it is an infinitely more complex than this. I think one of the main reason's of the complexity is due to the fact the writers just do whatever they want. You even said it yourself, in the original Sandman and the Lucifer spinoff, Michael and Lucifer created everything, but in Sandman Overture, they don't. Furthermore, we don't really know anything about the metaverse.

You're definitely right about the complexity of it all. All these separate dimensions and all of the retconning makes it very difficult to fully understand the DC cosmology.

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Sungsam

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#41  Edited By Sungsam
@bdelloidgrain2 said:
@sungsam said:
@bdelloidgrain2 said:
@sungsam said:

@bdelloidgrain2: Oh no, don't praise me too much.

Many posters might think I'm a notch above others when it comes to interpreting and gauging Multiversal power. I'm more of a knack to interpreting Multiversal feats.

My weakness is that I'm far from an expert for any verse I talk about, so I suffer when Demonbane fans bullshit to me about their wank. I'm more of a guy who interprets information, rather than one who gathers it.

I'm still trying to figure out DC's fucked up Cosmology and history. I just finished reading many chapters of Sandman and Lucifer, but I still need to read Convergence after I just finished Multiversity but now amount of reading will theoretically be enough to understand Lucifer's power.

Lucifer's depiction in Demon Nights was just so weird.

DC's cosmology is pretty complex. I didn't read Demon Knights, was it good? Do you think that Lucifer would be able to defeat WF Mxy? It's a pretty difficult battle to debate because these characters are so powerful, DC's cosmology is ridiculous, and WF was meant to be more of a humour thing.

DC's Cosmology is not only complex, it's filled with many holes and bullshit vs other bullshit that bullshits itself. Grant Morrison writes DC's Cosmology to be seemingly 10 dimensional or finite dimensional during his attempt to assert meta shit in DC's Cosmology, but Matteis literally overrode that bullshit and made it infinite dimensional in Justice League Dark.

And if DC has infinite dimensions again now, where are these rolled up? In the Bleed? Limbo? Sphere of the Gods? The hell.

Then there's the issue of where the DC Metaverse is. Is it still canon? Does it exist in Hypertime? Alongside Hypertime? Was it retconned? Where the hell is it? Most would say that Metaverse and Hypertime and the same thing, but the Metaverse seems a little more complex than Hypertime. We're just playing head-canons at this point.

Presence is credited with creating DC, and not once is Lucifer or Michael mentioned in any of them. The only time we hear Lucifer and Michael EVER be created with creating and shaping DC is on Lucifer's spinoff of Sandman. Even Sandman nearly retconned the idea that Lucifer and Michael created DC because Overture literally RETCONS Mike Carrey's account of Creation because it was Father Time and Mother Night who formed creation, not Lucifer and Michael.

Even Sandman is contradicting itself.

I'm trying to defend DC against the lowballers, but It's difficult for me to defend DC without people pointing out the contradictions and holes, calling me using head-canon. What the hell are we supposed to do? There's nothing else than trying to piece this mess together to make sense of it.

A lot of the writers contradict other writers, mainly because of their writing style. It's difficult to defend DC, that's for sure. A lot of people just assume that it is a simple multiverse, but it is an infinitely more complex than this. I think one of the main reason's of the complexity is due to the fact the writers just do whatever they want. You even said it yourself, in the original Sandman and the Lucifer spinoff, Michael and Lucifer created everything, but in Sandman Overture, they don't. Furthermore, we don't really know anything about the metaverse.

You're definitely right about the complexity of it all. All these separate dimensions and all of the retconning makes it very difficult to fully understand the DC cosmology.

Indeed. Just look at this scan from Sandman: Overture.

It mentions that it was Father Time and Mother Night who created the DC Multiverse, Universe and all versions of the Universe (Multiverse) who are also the parents of the Endless.

There is NO mention of Presence, NO mention of Lucifer and NO mention of Michael.

They say that Lucifer fits within the Sandman canon but what is this?

No Caption Provided

That's like if someone said that it was Oblivion who created the Marvel Multiverse and not mention TOAA.

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bdelloidgrain2

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@sungsam said:
@bdelloidgrain2 said:
@sungsam said:
@bdelloidgrain2 said:
@sungsam said:

@bdelloidgrain2: Oh no, don't praise me too much.

Many posters might think I'm a notch above others when it comes to interpreting and gauging Multiversal power. I'm more of a knack to interpreting Multiversal feats.

My weakness is that I'm far from an expert for any verse I talk about, so I suffer when Demonbane fans bullshit to me about their wank. I'm more of a guy who interprets information, rather than one who gathers it.

I'm still trying to figure out DC's fucked up Cosmology and history. I just finished reading many chapters of Sandman and Lucifer, but I still need to read Convergence after I just finished Multiversity but now amount of reading will theoretically be enough to understand Lucifer's power.

Lucifer's depiction in Demon Nights was just so weird.

DC's cosmology is pretty complex. I didn't read Demon Knights, was it good? Do you think that Lucifer would be able to defeat WF Mxy? It's a pretty difficult battle to debate because these characters are so powerful, DC's cosmology is ridiculous, and WF was meant to be more of a humour thing.

DC's Cosmology is not only complex, it's filled with many holes and bullshit vs other bullshit that bullshits itself. Grant Morrison writes DC's Cosmology to be seemingly 10 dimensional or finite dimensional during his attempt to assert meta shit in DC's Cosmology, but Matteis literally overrode that bullshit and made it infinite dimensional in Justice League Dark.

And if DC has infinite dimensions again now, where are these rolled up? In the Bleed? Limbo? Sphere of the Gods? The hell.

Then there's the issue of where the DC Metaverse is. Is it still canon? Does it exist in Hypertime? Alongside Hypertime? Was it retconned? Where the hell is it? Most would say that Metaverse and Hypertime and the same thing, but the Metaverse seems a little more complex than Hypertime. We're just playing head-canons at this point.

Presence is credited with creating DC, and not once is Lucifer or Michael mentioned in any of them. The only time we hear Lucifer and Michael EVER be created with creating and shaping DC is on Lucifer's spinoff of Sandman. Even Sandman nearly retconned the idea that Lucifer and Michael created DC because Overture literally RETCONS Mike Carrey's account of Creation because it was Father Time and Mother Night who formed creation, not Lucifer and Michael.

Even Sandman is contradicting itself.

I'm trying to defend DC against the lowballers, but It's difficult for me to defend DC without people pointing out the contradictions and holes, calling me using head-canon. What the hell are we supposed to do? There's nothing else than trying to piece this mess together to make sense of it.

A lot of the writers contradict other writers, mainly because of their writing style. It's difficult to defend DC, that's for sure. A lot of people just assume that it is a simple multiverse, but it is an infinitely more complex than this. I think one of the main reason's of the complexity is due to the fact the writers just do whatever they want. You even said it yourself, in the original Sandman and the Lucifer spinoff, Michael and Lucifer created everything, but in Sandman Overture, they don't. Furthermore, we don't really know anything about the metaverse.

You're definitely right about the complexity of it all. All these separate dimensions and all of the retconning makes it very difficult to fully understand the DC cosmology.

Indeed. Just look at this scan from Sandman: Overture.

It mentions that it was Father Time and Mother Night who created the DC Multiverse, Universe and all versions of the Universe (Multiverse) who are also the parents of the Endless.

There is NO mention of Presence, NO mention of Lucifer and NO mention of Michael.

They say that Lucifer fits within the Sandman canon but what is this?

No Caption Provided

That's like if someone said that it was Oblivion who created the Marvel Multiverse and not mention TOAA.

Yeah, pretty much. All this retconning and changing in DC makes things almost impossible to fully understand. How big is DC and Vertigo? Are they both metaverses, omniverses, or multiverses? There are things existing outside of creation, such as the 5th dimension that wouldn't fit into a multiverse, but might fit into a metaverse or an omniverse. Either way, DC and Vertigo's cosmology is very complex and is a total paradox.

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ApolloLife

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Mxy wins I think