Wally West vs. Thanos - Thread Remake

@cosmostyrant: I don't think anyone is arguing for destroying the shields, but rather, phasing through them. Just sayin'

@darkazrael999 i found it.

That said now that i look at it again im not sure the distance from their starting point to where Warlock says they are a lightyear away from him, however it was not until that point that thanos had 'reacted' to surfer and adam. Also i thought i read somewhere that thanos and adam were connected through the IG and could sense eachother throughout the universe which would mean that this feat is pointless to discuss but i could be wrong im not 100%.

@zmasonite said:

@darkazrael999 i found it

Cool. We'll talk more about it later. I have to go to sleep. Got work and college later. :)

@dratini1331: How can you phase through it wend the shield can dissolve molecules?

@darkazrael999: cool cool i edited it though theres more to what i said. and for sure "College, college woo-oo!" lol

Ah right fine then.

Because he's not touching it at all.

@zmasonite said:

@darkazrael999 ----> Alright well lets see surfers fastest speed feat and compare it to Wally's 13TrillionxFTL

@sheenlantern said:

Ignore the box at the bottom right, the act of transporting 500,000 people 35 miles at an average of 1.5 at a time in the space of 10^(-11) seconds would normally constitute the speed of 14 Trillion times the speed of light. (Light wouldn't even be able to get from one end of a strand of DNA to the other in that amount of time) So either the speed of light is significantly faster in the DC Universe or the writer was too lazy to do the math. You decide.

No, this is a double standard. Either real world science/math works in battle forum or it doesn't - and it shouldn't. The writer trumps real world science. This is why there's sound in space, why cold is an element (whatever that means) and not just the absence/loss of heat, why combat reaction is different than travel speed reaction, etc.

If arguing real world science/math to explain why the comic book writer is wrong is allowed for this feat, then you have to allow it for all feats. Otherwise we're favoring selected feats, sacrificing objectivity and makes this forum pointless.

@cosmostyrant: Phasing by default means you'd never actually be touching the shield, so dissolving molecules on contact (something which Wally may even be able to stop) is a moot point.

Even more so, I've heard people say that Wally's phasing works by partially entering the speed force, meaning he wouldn't even be in the same plane of existence as the shield, though I have yet to see proof of this.

To elaborate on the earlier point, Wally has complete molecular control, and can keep himself from dissolving in absurd circumstances:

Gallery

@milokill: Err, notice how in the scan, Wally did manage to transport all of the people, which would have been impossible if he was travelling the speeds the box says.

@dondave said:

@man_of_miracles said:

@dondave said:

@darkazrael999 said:

@dondave said:

@darkazrael999 said:

@pooty said:

Thanos is my favorite character. But Bloodlusted Wally is GOD. He can get through Thanos force fields. Scramble his brain. Speed Steal etc. Bloodlusted Wally beats damn near everyone

Scans of Wally getting through the forcefields of someone like Thanos. Galactus had to exert himself to get through Thanos' fields.

Vibrate his molecules around, the molecules of the forcefield

Scans? Has he ever done that before?

That's how his phasing works.

This scan shows that Wally needed Hal's help to re-arrange the molecules in a acceptable pattern, he was unable to phase through it on his own. This only strengthens the argument for Wally no being able to phase through Thanos's shields on his own...

That particular forcefield din't have a molecular structure for his molecules to vibrate around, can the same be said for Thanos' forcefield?

Can you show that the structure of Thanos' forcefield would not be likewise constructed? That is impossible to prove one way or the other so there is no point in even asking.

The point is you have shown an instance in which Wally was unable to phase through a forcefield, considering Thanos' forcefields have shown to be resistant to phasing (from Vision) it is entriely plausible, that, as in this scenario,Wally would be unable to phase through them.

@darkazrael999: @zmasonite: What, you were talking about Infinity Gauntlet?

That's stupid, Thanos still had the Power Gem at that time, he even said the only difference between the full Infinity Gauntlet and the Power Gem is the prescience.

We are on comicvine. Wally's powers may be nerfed in comics so they can fill 22 pages. But a bloodlusted Wally can beat most people because he can react much faster then most beings can think. They only reason thanos stands a chance in this battle is because Thanos gets prep and can have his shields up BEFORE the match starts. Wally can still use speed steal or scramble his cerebral cortex without touching him. How does Thanos hurt Wally?

Thanos still stomps. Flash has only gotten weaker from the last thread. And Flash needed GL to phase through the forcefield, why wouldn't he need him this time? Also Thanos right there had a 30 million times speed of light reaction feat with Surfer. Flash won't do anything and he can't win.

@milokill: I quite often accept real world math as it should matter. imo thats just lazy writing. but that is my opinion. light travels at 2.999*10^8 m/s, wally couldnt possibly have done this moving at that speed so either the speed of light in DCverse is 3.897302*10^21 m/s or its bad writing.

Right, just like I regularly see characters talking to each other in open space, which is impossible.

i think @citizenbane 's pic/meme/not really a meme is needed again for that comment.

Because that was Barry, who can't phase like Wally and has to rely on vibrating,

Thanos right there had a 30 million times speed of light reaction feat with Surfer.

Would also like to remind you that 30 million xFTL is still snails' pace compared to Wally. Also, Thanos had limitless power in that scan, show me a similar feat from an unamped Thanos.

I absolutely agree that it's bad writing. But if real world calculations are accepted for this feat and not for all feats, then that's inconsistent and devalues the battle forums as a whole.

I see.....Riiight...Back to the relevant...

How do you explain Wally accomplishing that feat without travelling trillions of times faster than light?

The ridiculous answers you give are to funny. Flash has this in the bag.

a couple things to think about. scans showed he saved the half a million people so he did perform the feat so people who are mad about that scan have 2 options. pick one.

1. maybe the speed of light is faster in DC

2. the writer was lazy and didnt do the math

It's comics. No further explanation is needed. The panel's narrator says he was under the speed of light, ergo he was under the speed of light.

I wasnt talking about the infinity gauntlet? only time i mentioned it was when i said that your OP didnt say thanos had it

@man_of_miracles: That's not wally, that's barry. It's also a very inexperienced barry. Wally has shown that he can modify Martian density shifting so as to make them tangible, so he may be able to alter the molecules of thanos' shield just as well. Wally has shown to have pretty good molecular control.

@man_of_miracles said:

@dondave said:

@man_of_miracles said:

@dondave said:

@darkazrael999 said:

@dondave said:

@darkazrael999 said:

@pooty said:

Thanos is my favorite character. But Bloodlusted Wally is GOD. He can get through Thanos force fields. Scramble his brain. Speed Steal etc. Bloodlusted Wally beats damn near everyone

Scans of Wally getting through the forcefields of someone like Thanos. Galactus had to exert himself to get through Thanos' fields.

Vibrate his molecules around, the molecules of the forcefield

Scans? Has he ever done that before?

That's how his phasing works.

This scan shows that Wally needed Hal's help to re-arrange the molecules in a acceptable pattern, he was unable to phase through it on his own. This only strengthens the argument for Wally no being able to phase through Thanos's shields on his own...

That particular forcefield din't have a molecular structure for his molecules to vibrate around, can the same be said for Thanos' forcefield?

Can you show that the structure of Thanos' forcefield would not be likewise constructed? That is impossible to prove one way or the other so there is no point in even asking.

The point is you have shown an instance in which Wally was unable to phase through a forcefield, considering Thanos' forcefields have shown to be resistant to phasing (from Vision) it is entriely plausible, that, as in this scenario,Wally would be unable to phase through them.

The Burden is on you to show that Thanos' Forcefield's act in such a way. Flash's phasing and Vision's phasing don't work in the same way. Vision lowers his density, while Flash move's his molecules around other molecules. Thanos' shields have only stopped a certain type of Phasing and even Wally himself has stopped that kind of phasing.

.........that scan of Hal helping Flash get past a force-field is of Barry, not Wally, and that's because Barry did not know how to vibrate through things cleanly the way Wally did. When he came back to life, he was actually shocked that Wally could phase like that. Not that that will stop people from running away with ludicrous made-up details of how this stuff works, but it's worth a shot.

Also edited OP to change win conditions. I'd have to lock it otherwise.

QFT

@dratini1331 said:

@cosmostyrant: Phasing by default means you'd never actually be touching the shield, so dissolving molecules on contact (something which Wally may even be able to stop) is a moot point.

Even more so, I've heard people say that Wally's phasing works by partially entering the speed force, meaning he wouldn't even be in the same plane of existence as the shield, though I have yet to see proof of this.

To elaborate on the earlier point, Wally has complete molecular control, and can keep himself from dissolving in absurd circumstances:

Gallery

This explains the phasing aspect. Adding to it, Wally moves his molecules through the other object's molecules, or in some cases with Wally, literally vibrates to a different dimensional frequency.

Nothing about limitless speed though. Wally hasn't gone 30 million x FTL unamped. That sca is SPECIFICALLY stated to be almost the speed of light. It's WIS and thus not counted, just like PIS.

And yet the people all survived, ergo he was faster than light.

Where exactly did you get these numbers from?

he's just looking for attention. this debate was settled in the last one. Multiple ways for Flash to win. None for Thanos.

Panel says otherwise. If you want everything to make perfect sense in the real world I'd suggest stop reading comics.

Uh, I'm not counting it. I'm only counting the actual feat of transporting 500,000 people 35 miles at an average of 1.5 a time in the space of 0.00001 microseconds, Thanos can't react to those speeds, end of story.

That is what I want to know. It says SS was a lightyear away from Thanos. I don't think the scan says how long it took surfer to get to him. It also says Thanos was looking at them before SS started moving. So thanos was ready.

He's done it plenty of times. He ran for days non-stop across universes without an amp in The Human Race, and there isn't a number for the number of times FTL you'd have to be to do that. I do not understand why people state these things with such confidence when they are patently wrong and easily proven as such.

Has anyone arguing against the Flash in this thread actually read anything with the Flash in it? Anything at all? Between this and the scans of Barry that people are claiming is Wally and the assumptions about the Speed Force that could be cleared up by reading maybe 10 issues or so, I legitimately doubt it. I really do.

If it is Barry then why is it being presented at all? It is completely irrelevant

He MIGHT be able to and that is the issue.

That's still nowhere near touching Wally, who can still just pull the same thing he did in the Human Race. As I pointed out to others here, that's barry, not wally. It's also barry at the start of his career as the flash (his first outing with Hal). Wally has far better feats than Barry and is significantly better at shifting molecules and at controlling them.

He can beat him with telepathy.

Running across universes w/o a definite time period isn't a quantifiable speed. Also not one he can bust out out of nowhere. I've seen Flash's feats, from outrunning teleportation to that previously mentioned so called 13 trillion FTL scan to outrunning Death/black flash. He still can't win. He can't hurt Thanos he can't get past his shields/forcefields.

and since we VISUALLY see him perform the feat that means the speed of light is much faster in DC. or the writer was too lazy to do the math.

All Flashes have that ability, and Wally's is actually better than Barry's. I originally posted in the other thread stating it was possible for flashes to get through energy (which is a consistent ability they've shown). Unless there's a reason he couldn't do it to thanos, which hasn't been shown, I don't see why he couldn't.

The thing is Thanos' shields also MIGHT be able to stop him. This entire debate is "maybe" and "might". There's no reason to throw that one out based on calling it a "might"

@dondave said:

@man_of_miracles said:

@dondave said:

@man_of_miracles said:

@dondave said:

@darkazrael999 said:

@dondave said:

@darkazrael999 said:

@pooty said:

Thanos is my favorite character. But Bloodlusted Wally is GOD. He can get through Thanos force fields. Scramble his brain. Speed Steal etc. Bloodlusted Wally beats damn near everyone

Scans of Wally getting through the forcefields of someone like Thanos. Galactus had to exert himself to get through Thanos' fields.

Vibrate his molecules around, the molecules of the forcefield

Scans? Has he ever done that before?

That's how his phasing works.

This scan shows that Wally needed Hal's help to re-arrange the molecules in a acceptable pattern, he was unable to phase through it on his own. This only strengthens the argument for Wally no being able to phase through Thanos's shields on his own...

That particular forcefield din't have a molecular structure for his molecules to vibrate around, can the same be said for Thanos' forcefield?

Can you show that the structure of Thanos' forcefield would not be likewise constructed? That is impossible to prove one way or the other so there is no point in even asking.

The point is you have shown an instance in which Wally was unable to phase through a forcefield, considering Thanos' forcefields have shown to be resistant to phasing (from Vision) it is entriely plausible, that, as in this scenario,Wally would be unable to phase through them.

The Burden is on you to show that Thanos' Forcefield's act in such a way. Flash's phasing and Vision's phasing don't work in the same way. Vision lowers his density, while Flash move's his molecules around other molecules. Thanos' shields have only stopped a certain type of Phasing and even Wally himself has stopped that kind of phasing.

1. No it actually isn't

2. I am beginning to question if anyone on here has even a basic understanding of physics. You do understand, that for one object to move through another, the definition of that action is that the molecules are moving around other molecules right?

Simply lowering your density means nothing if your molecules collide with the molecules in another object, if you understand this basic concept then you will understand that all phasing depends on molecules moving around other molecules.

3. Wally stopping that kind of phasing has no bearing on this fight.

@milokill: personally i see no reason why it shouldnt be accepted for all feats. If writers contradict themselves imo it shouldnt change the actual feat. "Because the writer said so." has always been a lame-duck argument in my eyes. if we go by that then PIS is a worthless argument because it happened in the comicbook so squirrel girl can defeat ridiculously powerful opponents(Like thanos) just because the writer wrote it that way. but i guess im the minority.

I read somewhere that if you move faster than light then you will cause massive destruction on Earth, those people Wally carried shouldn't be alive. That and the fact he couldn't do that with just under the speed of light prove that this feat should be ignored. Thanos wins with telepathy.

Not sure if you're trying to be obtuse or you're truly not seeing the problem here. The writer stated how fast Flash moved, meaning the fictional character, Flash, moved exactly has fast as the omnipotent writer wrote him moving. Did he do a bad job of showing this? Yes. But if you're going to interject real world calculations to trump what the writer created here, then you have to apply it everywhere - otherwise you lose objectivity.

The feat itself doesn't count. At all. The writer made a mistake and didn't mean for it to happen. The statement isn't just disarded, the feat itself is.

Surfer traveled a lightyear in a second, Thanos dodged him.

There's something like 30 million seconds in a year.

Nope. Just giving my opinion and bringing facts. Flash wins too much on comicvine via pure speculation and fanboys. It gets tiresome.

I don't think he can. Wally is faster then thought. MM tried that and couldn't because Wally mind moves to fast

Or it's COMIC (you know FAKE and MADE UP) and shouldn't be taken hyper literally. Geez.

@citizenbane:

Haha so why in the world is it being presented in this thread then? it is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

People shouldn't post a feat from another Flash(Barry) while arguing Wally's capabilities