Wally West vs Silver Surfer vs Thanos vs Captain Atom

Thanos has ig in this scan. Win should be his.

Because that is not what Captain Atom did in the story, manipulate someone physical attribute, let alone somehow perfectly capable of re-create his entire body despite being chopped up into pieces or actually reconstruct his body out of nothing.

I am not sure how this changes though. Controlling speed force, or any other extra dimensional energy on molecular scale, doesn’t automatically extent to sentiment being who themselves can control their body.

While I do not know much about Speed Force I would doubt it has the ability to change its shape at will, heal itself from surrounding materials, or fight back in a sense a sentient beings do.

I never said anything about manipulating the molecules which make up the energy, all i said is nature of energy is inconsequential because Surfer himself has manipulated inter-dimensional energy.

The ability to absorb, collect, expand, and return as an offensive isnt considered energy manipulation? Coz that's "manipulating" energy in every sense of the word.

I dont really see how its different though, my argument is manipulating energy isnt something different for Surfer. Like i mention again, while the word "molecule" was never mention Surfer has manipulated energy from Skaar, mystical in nature, called Old Power, in such a way that Sakaar lost his ability to any longer possess the energy.

I dont see how its any different from what Captain Atom did, the only thing from Sakaar instance you could question is scale, because i would presume energy to move planets might be lower in scale than speed force, but Silver Surfer has plenty of instance of manipulate vast amount of energy. Crunch for example, or Uni-Lord's energy being another.

To be honest i think i am not actually getting your argument, sorry.

The feat with Barry, at least to me, seems similar to what Silver Surfer went though with Sakaar and another similar example would be what Norrin did to Sympira. Both instance involves Silver Surfer taking away an ability the two had, using his manipulation of energy.

I did just address this earlier. We dont really know much about the Crunch other than every energy that lies in the universe comes from the Crunch. We do not know if it contains even more energy. That is all we know. Details about it are never really explained.

Silver Surfer us being highly underestimated.

@claymore1998: Seems we differ on interpretation.

I'll respectfully agree to disagree.

@frozen: for a well respected debater you sounding like you deliberately missing the logic of everyone's arguments here.

The Speed force is energy not matter so logically Atom was hyperbolling because energy has no molecules, which molecules did he manipulate?

2- if Speed force has molecules Surfer who has planetary transmutation can turn it to candy and wally auto loses

3- if a Capt Atom has been drained on panel wat stops Thanos from draining him.

You say Thanos can be dumped in time yet he has teleported through time under his own power are you trolling or u just don't know Thanos

@frozen said:

@unbreakable_fs4 said:

You just derailed your argument with this statement. If Atom has to choose to do this and you yourself state his pre-cog is not continuous, then he would find it impossible to actually act when faced with a Flash that is ridiculously faster than the one he faced.

Not really. That's the statement he stated against Flash, unless you can provide me with an explanation of what he was actually using? Because he directly states ''Your speed is an illusion. I can bend space and time on a quantum level. I can catch you before you even move''.

You seem to be misunderstanding what I'm getting at. The statement by Atom by your own words (Below)

His Pre-Cog isn't continous.

Against Flash, he bent space and time on a quantum level to know where Flash would be before he actually moved.

To do so again, he would have to choose when to bend space and time.

Basically this means that Atom's statement is now irrelevant as to now "do so (use pre-cog) again, he would have to choose when to bend space and time." he won't get this luxury when facing someone that can move incomprehensibly faster than he has ever displayed in the New-52.

If you have to choose when to act against an opponent who can mover faster than you ever could fathom, how exactly can you act?

There's no proof that Atom would even be able to see an amped, blood-lusted Wally when a speed amped pre-52 Superman who could, before the amp see light frozen and move effortlessly by the picosecond wasn't even aware of Wally's presence.

Atom, has no place here..only if and if.. He can control the speed force of surfer then he might stand a chance.

@unbreakable_fs4: ...The argument you've made neglects to mention to mention the very next line of dialogue:

''--And I constantly manipulate the molecules that make up your speed force''

When Flash, already in motion, using his speed was running, Atom was already manipulating the molecules which made up the Speed Force. He describes it, on-panel as 'constant' - Atom bending space and time was used to know where he'd be; the Speed Force was already cut off. The description of 'constant' was already occurring. He needn't even see Wally, as Wally enters his presence, his Speed Force is cut. Under their own power, 5th dimensional Imp's have cut him (Atom cut Flash with his own power). My bending space and time argument necessitating non-continuous Pre-Cog has no relevance on the Flash argument as the Speed Force is already taken care of.

Are you by chance claiming that Atom always has manipulated the Speed Force? if not then to even begin in said tactic, he would have to first decide to do so. And as I already stated Wally is in a far different level of speed compared to Atom, thereby eliminating this opportunity. Unless you can provide evidence that Atom has even demonstrated movement and processing speed equivalent to what an amped, blood-lusted Wally can demonstrate. We know his speed is comparable to New-52 Barry but Wally is a different story.

Read the scans - you're arguing, or choosing to discuss my statement of his Pre-Cog not being continuous, but I made that statement because it makes sense. The same panel directly states that Atom constantly manipulated his Speed Force, ergo when used in his presence it got manipulated.

Textbook definition of 'Constantly' - continuously over a period of time; always.

So the entire Flash fight he had had nothing to do with speed. He directly stated that his speed was an illusion.

@thanosii: If you read the arguments you'll see there are several arguments occurring so that point is moot.

-The Speed Force, was confirmed to have molecules. Though, as strange as that sounds, it's not wise to argue Physics with the Speed Force considering the Speed Force is the justification for all of Flash's feats which vehemently go against go against logical Physics.

-Surfer cannot react to Wally. The debate has been done 1,000 times over. IF he could cut the Speed Force off instantly, then yes. But A) He has no knowledge of the Speed Force whatsoever, B) He won't cut it constantly and C) Wally's too fast for him

-I'm not even doubting whether Thanos could beat Atom, he's far more likely to use TP than Surfer, but Wally will speed-steal Thanos. I don't know why you're fabricating arguments that I never made.

Man, why are you bringing that up? What Thanos time dump? The only time I argued Thanos would get time dumped is when I argued Darkseid against Thanos, and at the time, I had argued that Thanos under his own power couldn't time travel. Unless he gained the power since I argued that (probably has) then cool, but I NEVER argued in this thread that Thanos gets time-dumped. My Darkseid debate holds no relevance to this. Nice attempt at calling me a troll for no reason whatsoever.

@frozen: Seems fair. It was fun debating with you :)

@claymore1998: I loved that comic. Also I believe Thanos should win.

So Atom is suggest he has full control over the Speed Force in Barry's presence and even before the fight begins his speed is meaningless?

Honestly, that makes no sense. He can now control and manipulate "molecules" of energy that reside in another dimension WITHOUT even first willing to do so. That's like saying because I have a universal remote that controls every TV in the house, I can now suddenly fiddle with them (TVs) without first willing to do so.

@unbreakable_fs4: No. I clearly didn't say that at all.

Futures End, that particularly comic is 5 years later so his matter powers have become more precise. Captain Atom has been capable of transmuting the area around him (think of it as, an Area of Effect) and his Micro-Vision has allowed him to see the everything down to their smallest atoms and transmute it - in Flash's case, who's operating under a powerful energy source, he was able to cut off the Speed-Force as it was used in his presence.

Captain Atom

@frozen: I'm not saying you said it but rather commenting on Atom's statement he made.

Yes, I understand he's quite proficient is manipulating matter but what doesn't make sense is doing it without choosing to do it. Just because his control spans great distances does not mean he can now begin manipulating each particle surrounding or not surrounding him without his consent. If we were to go by his statement, it would be nigh impossible (and honestly pretty stupid) to beat him. He wouldn't even have let the likes of MM fool him because his control of molecules would discern MM's disguise.

@unbreakable_fs4: That's what was said on-panel. And I don't find it surprising that he had higher proficiency over powerful energy like that.

Or

You could take the idea of his bending of Space and Time being continuous and his cutting of the Speed Force as chosen, if that suits you the better explanation.

@frozen: I'll have to take the second option then. Honestly, the guy is seriously powerful lol.

But I'll have to stick with my initial choice and stick with Team 1 due to Thanos getting speed stolen. While, Atom can indeed cut Flash from his source of power after Thanos is immobilized, I see this being hard to accomplish with SS engaging him in battle. Especially since Atom has shown vulnerability to telepathy and Surfer is capable of utilizing such tactic against him.

Seem likes everyone's fussing over Futures End.

Going with Captain Atom here

No. It isn't PIS...per se.

What I mean is this: Thanos simply has the ungodly strength to deck characters on Surfer's level of power and durability. He is closer in power to Odin than he is the Silver Surfer.

Therefore, the PIS comes in Thanos being able to touch the Surfer at all. Because Thanos does not have the reaction speed to deal with any of these other three charactes, including the Surfer.

However, you said this:

First of all, why do you say Surfer lacks combat speed?

Second, when has Thanos tagged characters faster than the Surfer?

Additionally, I don't mean to intrude, but I noticed this response below:

First of all, I'm somewhat familiar with Flash. I have to admit, I was surprised when the writer of the Justice League: Future's end described Atom as manipulating the molecules of the speed force. Since when was the speed force, an extra-dimensional source of energy, comprised of molecules?? At any rate, its clear from the writing that CA was capable of manipulating the speed force energy. This is acceptable to me because of Atom's power set.

Also, @claymore1998's point was that because Surfer could, for a limited time, manipulate the energies of the crunch, he should be able to manipulate the speed force. As well, just so you're clear, Aegis and Tenebrous defeated Galactus and turned him over to Annihilus. So, yes, Aegis and Tenebrous together are more powerful than Galactus. Aegis and Tenebrous are universal threats.

I agree with claymore's appraisal that Surfer can manipulate the speed force.

To recap:

1) Surfer is just as fast as Captain Atom. As I mentioned, all three characters are massively FTL, so much so they can travel time. There are other FTL characters, but not all FTL characters appear to be able to travel time.

Therefore, I reassert my earlier stance: Cap, Wally and Surfer are all too fast for Thanos to even touch.

2) Second of all, Surfer is a more powerful energy and matter manipulator than Captain Atom.

He his restored life to two planets ravaged by Galactus. He has evolved a child (with special powers) decades ahead of time. He has turned a machine into flesh and blood. He restored a destroyed New York City completely, to the last brick. He and (Jesus) Cable restored a destroyed battleship as fast as they destroyed it. There are others.

In terms of manipulating energy, he has destroyed planets, siphoned some of the energy of the sun, siphoned the gamma radiation from the Hulk and curing Banner in the process and absorbed the laser fire of entire space armada and used the energy in turn to re-ignite a dying star. There are others.

To summarize: Surfer is just as fast as Wally and Cap.

If Cap can manipulate the speed force, so can the Surfer, who has better feats of matter and energy manipulation.

@frozen: comicvine seems to have ate last post so I will repost focusing on the important errors

1- please cite an issue or post were Speedforce was said to have molecules, other than Atoms statement which which to me sounds like a characters hyperbole like the famous " million exploding suns". Supes has said he can destroy planets with a punch yet it is agreed unless he shows it on panel he can't, why should Atom have it different.

2- By your calculation who is the better energy/matter manipulator between Thanos and Wally? By mine it is clearly Thanos, speed steal is a form of kinetic energy drain. Isn't it more likely that Thanos can drain Wally of the Speedforce than the other way round. Also Thanos has demonstrated precognition as well.

The true matter of this battle is THANOS >>> ( Surfer > Atom > Wally ) prove other wise....

@hyper_temporal_shift:

No. It isn't PIS...per se.

It's not PIS. Full stop. Thanos is a level above Surfer. Their fight demonstrated that. Stalin stated it and recently, it was implied yet again that he could kill Surfer if need be. It holds no relevance whether it's Pre-Annhilation or Post, Surfer loses to Thanos.

What I mean is this: Thanos simply has the ungodly strength to deck characters on Surfer's level of power and durability. He is closer in power to Odin than he is the Silver Surfer.

Thanos does have ungodly strength; however, he's also far more durable than Surfer and has a similar power-set. His powers operate on a higher tier; and yes, he's ''closer'' to Odin.

He tanked several blasts from Odin which one-shotted both Surfer and Drax but I don't exactly put Thanos into Odin tier. If anything, Thanos is a low-level Skyfather or a ridiculously juiced up Herald.

Therefore, the PIS comes in Thanos being able to touch the Surfer at all. Because Thanos does not have the reaction speed to deal with any of these other three charactes, including the Surfer.

No; it's not PIS. It's questionable if Thanos tags someone like Wally West, who has Zeptosecond speed - but Surfer maxes out at Nanosecond and the vast majority of his feats are indeed travel feats (and Wally beats him in that regard too; while also vastly outclassing Surfer in combat speed).

I don't even know much in regards to Captain Atom's combat speed. I do not even think Atom's speed should be a vital factor against Thanos, unless I'm missing something.

First of all, why do you say Surfer lacks combat speed?

Because he does. I cannot think of a single instance to which he actually performs FTL combat blitzing. He might have one, or two --- but on a consistent level he does not. Even if he does have sufficient combat speed, it's not enough to blitz Thanos unless it's performed at a beyond Nanosecond level on a consistent level.

Second, when has Thanos tagged characters faster than the Surfer?

Thanos pimp-smacked Gwen. Gwen, the same character who has blitzed Silver Surfer on two occasions.

First of all, I'm somewhat familiar with Flash. I have to admit, I was surprised when the writer of the Justice League: Future's end described Atom as manipulating the molecules of the speed force. Since when was the speed force, an extra-dimensional source of energy, comprised of molecules?? At any rate, its clear from the writing that CA was capable of manipulating the speed force energy. This is acceptable to me because of Atom's power set.

The Speed Force having molecules may be slightly dodgy but I do not find it to be the most confusing aspect of the Speed Force. The Speed Force is the same energy source which essentially justifies all of Flash's nonsense feats which laugh in the face of Physics. But yes, he completely manipulated the Speed Force or at-least what makes up the Speed Force.

Also, s point was that because Surfer could, for a limited time, manipulate the energies of the crunch, he should be able to manipulate the speed force. As well, just so you're clear, Aegis and Tenebrous defeated Galactus and turned him over to Annihilus. So, yes, Aegis and Tenebrous together are more powerful than Galactus. Aegis and Tenebrous are universal threats.

No. I do not agree. Surfer; at first had to absorb the energy with his energy absorption, otherwise the energy would have killed him (the energy killing two Galactus level beings will kill Surfer if used offensively).

In fact, the argument could be stemmed that he absorbed the energy and then re-directed it in an even more powerful form against the two Galactus level beings. That's EXACTLY what he did against Uni-Lord.

Gallery

And that wouldn't necessitate energy manipulation.

1) Surfer is just as fast as Captain Atom. As I mentioned, all three characters are massively FTL, so much so they can travel time. There are other FTL characters, but not all FTL characters appear to be able to travel time.

I'm afraid you've not made the distinction between combat speed and travel speed. Silver Surfer is FTL in travel speed - he can travel across long distances but he cannot and often, does not utilize FTL speed blitzing in combat. Furthermore, Captain Atom's speed is used in a similar fashion - he does not have FTL combat speed.

Flying a long distance holds no relevance against Thanos.

Therefore, I reassert my earlier stance: Cap, Wally and Surfer are all too fast for Thanos to even touch.

You have to provide evidence for this assertion, considering not only has Thanos tagged a much faster character but you've not provided a shred of evidence that ''Surfer is too fast for Thanos'' and neither have you done so for Captain Atom.

Furthermore, in regards to his energy manipulation, Thanos amplified his fists with energy and used that to beat down Silver Surfer; leaving him near death.

Gallery

1. This is the first - but that's the point. Captain Atom saying ''I constantly manipulate the Molecules that make up your Speed Force'' is not the same as Sentry having ''the power of one million exploding Suns''. The comparison makes no sense. Captain Atom is primarily a matter manipulator; his micro-vision sees straight down to the smallest atoms. What Atom did was shown on panel. He literally controlled the Speed Force because that's an action he performed.

2. Look man, Wally isn't a matter manipulator. Thanos is clearly better at manipulating matter than Wally because Wally doesn't even have that power. Wally can and will blitz Thanos and even steal his speed because he's much, much faster. What can you provide which demonstrates Thanos reacting to Zeptosecond beings? Because I don't know. Thanos has, actually struggled with much slower characters using their respective speed (he eventually tags them but Wally is another case).

Thanos, will stomp Silver Surfer and exit him out of the equation. Thanos needn't exert much effort, he'll beat Surfer and already has.

However, what can Thanos do against Wally? Atom can beat Wally due to the circumstances of his latest feat but Wally's speed is far above anything Thanos has dealt with.

1. Thanos

2. Silver Surfer

3. Captain Atom

4. Flash

It's the text book definition of PIS. The Anti-Monitor could kill Wally as he is more powerful. That does not prove he is faster. Again, the PIS comes in that Thanos could touch the Surfer at all. He is too fast.

I wouldn't say far more durable. Surfer zips through stars and rides the explosions of stars exploding. Thanos has similarly tanked stars exploding and essentially laughing it off.

Wally does not have zeptosecond reaction speed. Where is this coming from? I have Wally at pico second reaction speed. Not only would it be questionable for Thanos to tag Wally, but it would be questionable for him to tag CA or the SS as well.

And I would term Surfer's reaction speed as "Nano -", less than a nano second. While it's true he does have a few so called nano second reaction feats, other showings indicate he probably faster than that. Light travels a smidge less than 12 inches in a nano second. His nano second feats have him moving/reacting faster than that. As well, he has a feat searching earth in the span of time it takes Doctor Strange to not quite complete two sentences. As well, blitzing Thanos from over a light year away and being able to react at that speed indicates his reaction time to be faster than just a nano second. However, as there are no definitely indicated feats in the pico second range for the Surfer, I don't know that that pico second speed could be awarded to him with a clean conscience.

New 52 Captain Atom has one nano second reaction feat that I am aware of. So he is also fast enough to avoid getting touched by Thanos.

Silver Surfer, Captain Atom and Wally West's reaction is a vital factor because, PIS off, Thanos cannot touch any of these guys.

The Surfer has several feats clearly indicating he can react at faster than light speeds. His consistency of reaction speed ranges over several decades. You've already mentioned the nano second feats. Here is a third faster than light reaction feat:

Gallery

I don't know who "Gwen" is. But it sounds to me as if you are trying to dismiss any reaction feats the Surfer has on him being tagged by slower characters. Is that right? If that is the case, you should check your logic. If we go by your logic, then no one that has super speed could really say they have super-speed as all super fast characters have been tagged by other characters known not to have any super speed whatsoever.

Your logic is severely flawed and is exactly what the battle forum rules call PIS. Superman has super speed. Does he always, consistently use it? Has Superman been hit by slower opponents? All the time. Does that mean we dismiss the fact that he has super speed?

I think you get the idea.

So, then given that the Surfer has manipulated the energies of the crunch, energies which destroyed Aegis and Tenebrous, I don't see it being a problem for the Surfer, which was my point on that. Why could Atom do it but not the Surfer?

First of all, it did almost kill him. Second, if he can manipulate the energies of the crunch, which energies destroyed those, how did you put it..."Galactus level beings....", then he can manipulate the speed force. Additionally, Surfer has better energy manipulation feats than Captain Atom. If Atom can do it, then so can the Surfer.

Don't be afraid. No need to be. Particularly when you are vastly mistaken on the FTL reaction speed. Scans were submitted above and you've mentioned the two nano second reaction feats out of your own mouth. There are others. And you are equally mistaken on Captain Atom's reaction speed. Check out Captain Atom 3.

Gallery

The only discrepancy in the scans above is that Barry is not faster than light. But the feat is clean for Atom.

Said evidence in the form of feats has been provided above. And when has Thanos tagged a faster character than the Surfer? If he did, that would be PIS, since super speed is not in Thanos' repertoire of powers. Additionally, I provided scans of Captain Atom moving in a nano second. The scan below makes it clear he is even faster than Barry Allan.

@hyper_temporal_shift:

It's the text book definition of PIS. The Anti-Monitor could kill Wally as he is more powerful. That does not prove he is faster. Again, the PIS comes in that Thanos could touch the Surfer at all. He is too fast.

Nope. It's not remotely PIS. Silver Surfer does not have FTL combat speed. If Thanos tags a character who isn't even that fast in combat, then it's undoubtedly not PIS. Furthermore, there's no good reason why Thanos can't have fast reactions. For example, Thanos has tagged someone who was moving at super-speeds, the same character who blitzed Silver Surfer on two occasions. There's nothing wrong with that if that's how fast Thanos's reactions are supposed to be.

I wouldn't say far more durable. Surfer zips through stars and rides the explosions of stars exploding. Thanos has similarly tanked stars exploding and essentially laughing it off.

Thanos isfar more durable than Silver Surfer. Point in case: Thanos tanked several of Odin's blasts whereas Silver Surfer was one-shotted. That's a clear indication of Thanos being far more durable than Silver Surfer.

Wally does not have zeptosecond reaction speed. Where is this coming from? I have Wally at pico second reaction speed. Not only would it be questionable for Thanos to tag Wally, but it would be questionable for him to tag CA or the SS as well.

Wally does have Zeptosecond reaction speeds. A feat of his was quantified by calculation at that time - though, a full detailed explanation was given on another thread. I think Wally beats Thanos so the question of Thanos tagging Wally doesn't pertain to me. Wally's not at Picosecond either - the slower Barry Allen is at Attosecond, hell Superman's had a Picosecond feat so the far faster Wally is much faster.

And I would term Surfer's reaction speed as "Nano -", less than a nano second.

Silver Surfer's speed isn't slower than a Nanosecond. He has on-panel, exact Nanosecond feats.

While it's true he does have a few so called nano second reaction feats, other showings indicate he probably faster than that. Light travels a smidge less than 12 inches in a nano second. His nano second feats have him moving/reacting faster than that. As well, he has a feat searching earth in the span of time it takes Doctor Strange to not quite complete two sentences. As well, blitzing Thanos from over a light year away and being able to react at that speed indicates his reaction time to be faster than just a nano second. However, as there are no definitely indicated feats in the pico second range for the Surfer, I don't know that that pico second speed could be awarded to him with a clean conscience.

Silver Surfer's speed feats come in the form if him traveling across a Galaxy at super-speeds and even longer distances. That's why Silver Surfer is so fast - and while he has Nanosecond reactions, there's nothing to suggest he has FTL combat speed. Combat speed is when a character can apply their speed in relevant combat. For example, Flash can throw millions of punches and blitz in short distances. His speed works in combat --- based on what Surfer's demonstrated in combat, he lacks FTL combat speed and the multiple xFTL speeds he often reaches are due to him gaining momentum over long travel.

He didn't even blitz Thanos either. He missed, though it was recently implied Thanos had prior time to react, that's not a valid combat speed feat. That's Surfer travelling light-years away and then returning by gaining speed in an attempt to snatch the I.G from Thanos. That's not relevant to this fight.

Furthermore, I did cite that Thanos tagged Gwen, who's faster than Surfer.

New 52 Captain Atom has one nano second reaction feat that I am aware of. So he is also fast enough to avoid getting touched by Thanos.

Well, if you can substantiate that feat with a scan or issue reference I'd like to see.

Silver Surfer, Captain Atom and Wally West's reaction is a vital factor because, PIS off, Thanos cannot touch any of these guys.

Thanos can tag Surfer. Surfer massively lacks relevant combat speed. Furthermore, as I've said, Thanos tagged a faster opponent.

The Surfer has several feats clearly indicating he can react at faster than light speeds. His consistency of reaction speed ranges over several decades. You've already mentioned the nano second feats. Here is a third faster than light reaction feat:

...This doesn't refute my point whatsoever.

That's literally how Surfer gains his speed. He has to travel massively long distances to gain speed. That's him traveling. Whereas on the other hand, Flash can reach those speeds without having to travel long distances. There's a difference between traveling a long distance at super speeds and applying it combat. Thor could probably travel FTL across long distances yet he can't fight at FTL speeds.

I don't know who "Gwen" is.

Allow me to inform you. Gyanmede, a character who's much faster than Silver Surfer, easily tags him whereas he struggles to even land on her.

Gallery

Thanos pimp-smacked the same character.

Gallery

But it sounds to me as if you are trying to dismiss any reaction feats the Surfer has on him being tagged by slower characters. Is that right? If that is the case, you should check your logic. If we go by your logic, then no one that has super speed could really say they have super-speed as all super fast characters have been tagged by other characters known not to have any super speed whatsoever.

No. I'm not dismissing his feats. I'm demonstrating the difference between combat speed and travel speed. Gwen tagging Surfer does not dismiss him either. Gyanmede blitzing Surfer indicates she is faster. Thanos tagging the character who blitzed Surfer (while she is attempting to blitz Thanos) heavily substantiates the view that Thanos can react to Silver Surfer: especially considering.

A) Silver Surfer has no notable combat speed feats

B) Thanos already stomped Silver Surfer

C) Thanos can deply an AOE to deal with, IF necessary (it won't be) Surfer's sub-par combat speed

Thanos does not need to have super-speed to react to a speedster either. That's flawed logic. Any fictional Cosmic powerhouse can be written to react to speedsters, depending on what tier they operate at.

Furthermore, you make the grave mistake of implying that Thanos is helpless against speedsters. While Wally's speed may prove too much for Thanos, sub-FTL combat speed can be countered with AOE (Area of Effect).

Though Surfer has never blitzed anyone in combat, with FTL speed and has been entirely unimpressive in that regard (combat speed); below you can see Thanos using AOE's to counter the speed dilemma.

Gallery

Your logic is severely flawed and is exactly what the battle forum rules call PIS. Superman has super speed. Does he always, consistently use it? Has Superman been hit by slower opponents? All the time. Does that mean we dismiss the fact that he has super speed?

Not even comparable. Superman actually has very good combat speed. Let's see, shall we?

Blitzes Mongul. Blitzes Doomsday Rex. Blitzed Imperiex Probe.Blitzed Gog. Blitzed Gnarnite.

Oh, and he blitzed a Kryptonian strike team.

A) My logic is completely fine

B) It's not flawed either. You're not providing valid, credible evidence to your viewpoint

First of all, it did almost kill him. Second, if he can manipulate the energies of the crunch, which energies destroyed those, how did you put it..."Galactus level beings....", then he can manipulate the speed force. Additionally, Surfer has better energy manipulation feats than Captain Atom. If Atom can do it, then so can the Surfer.

I suggest you re-read my post. The feat can be interpreted as energy absorption rather than manipulation, with Surfer absorbing the crunch and offensively repelling it in an even more powerful form against the two beings (thus, why they took the blast worse than Surfer did). And my overreaching point is that Atom > Surfer in manipulating, which is why I cited the Speed Force feat as an actual, solid manipulation feat.

Don't be afraid. No need to be. Particularly when you are vastly mistaken on the FTL reaction speed. Scans were submitted above and you've mentioned the two nano second reaction feats out of your own mouth. There are others. And you are equally mistaken on Captain Atom's reaction speed. Check out Captain Atom 3.

I'm not ''vastly'' mistaken. There's a massive discrepancy between FTL combat speed and FTL travel speed. They are not interchangeable. And I've admitted that Surfer has Nanosecond feats, yes...but they only ever come into use when he travels long distances so the point is moot. In regards to Atom, that's a nice feat.

Said evidence in the form of feats has been provided above.

No. You informed me of Captain Atom's reactions, which I acknowledge as I had looked for some of his reaction feats. But for Surfer, you've got nothing in the form of FTL combat speed. Surfer travelling a long distance with his travel speed and failing to snatch the I.G from Thanos is not a feat.

And when has Thanos tagged a faster character than the Surfer? If he did, that would be PIS, since super speed is not in Thanos' repertoire of powers.

I've cited who Thanos tagged; and again, it's not really PIS. Gwen was probably sub-light speed, because Surfer's not FTL in combat.

Additionally, I provided scans of Captain Atom moving in a nano second. The scan below makes it clear he is even faster than Barry Allan.

No it doesn't. The below scan shows no such thing. He states ''your speed is an illusion'' and bends space and time to know where Flash will be; that's why his hand grasps at Flash and states he'll catch him before he's even moved. He also cuts him from the Speed Force. He was in no way faster than Barry. It was a case of Barry's speed being useless against someone who have perfect counter-measures to a DC speedster.

Nate

Right this fight is against SS,Thanos, CA....

All have energy manipulating feats...but Thanos has used it more aggressively on a universal level consistently....

Manipulating the speed force should be childs play for these three...

But to indulge...only one has possibly shown the ability to do it...so Wally is still in the fight...

Thanos then Silver Surfer IMO.

Thanos, SS/CA, WW

Consigned.

Doctor Manhattan.

Team 1

I give it to Thanos, he's close to Pre Crisis Darkseid power and he got the whole immortality thing coming back after his kryptonite man Drax kills him twice. Thanos area of attack blast would wipe out planets, he has better telepathy feats than Grodd and he's got a bunch of other powers like black magic, tech enhancesments, cosmic amped punch, BFR or teleporting. Atom, Flash and Surfer might give him a fight but the way this battle is set up Thanos will come out on top, Thanos is durable enough to tank attacks from Skyfather levels like Tyrant, Odin and so on.

Which is why its sooo painful to deal with Flash debates. It's like people are wilfully dense to the fact that you can't react to something that's moving faster than you can comprehend.

Wally > Thanos > Surfer > Captain Atom (New 52)

Wally now how's the abilities to completely stop time.

Ik the popular (and only) argument against him is Nathanial manipulated the "molecules" of the speedforce within Barry Allen.. there are a few things to note about that instance:

1) That entire scenario didn't really happen, it was a dream sequence in Magellas mind

2) Nathanial only manipulated the speedforce in Barry hence saying "your" speedforce instead of "the" speedforce

3) Nathanial has limited pre-cog which Dondave already proved is not full blown pre-cog and no where near cosmic awareness level. Fighting a morals on New 52 Barry Allen in a dream sequence is nothing compared to fighting Wally West.

Why? Wally is more powerful than Barry, Wally is faster than Barry, Wally has zeptosecond reaction feats which is greater than Nates nanosecond feats and even Barry's attosecond feats. Wally has never been fully cut off from the speedforce save 1 time by a reality warper and even then it wasn't permanent. In fact, characters designed specifically to corrupt or even cut him off from his power have failed. Wally stated on 2 separate occasions that he mainlines from the speedforce and has a direct link to it. Nates not cutting him off.

4) Barry Allen is as close to Wally West as Dick is to Bruce Wayne..

Finally, and the biggest argument is that Captain Atom stated he can bend space and time, which is impressive but not nearly as much as completely stopping time. Which, as of the past 2 Titans rebirth issues, Wally West can now do.

In short, Wally's overall vast superior speed to the Barry Allen Captain Atom fought, along with his reaction times, ability not to be cut off from the speed force (unlike Barry who had multiple times), the Speedsteal/lend and his newer (even if not completely controlled) ability to completely stop time, he has too many ways to win here.

Additionally, since we're allowing amped feats, does that mean we can use Earth 22 Wally West? Because the guy is so fast he's faux omnipresent. In essence Earth 22 Wally West IS the speed force.

Here comes the wally west fanboys who think he's a abstract being.

That version of CAP Atom is too Powerful. Thanos is not on that level.

More like that Earth 22 Wally West was so fast he was everywhere at once. But yeah, let's throw the baby out with the bath water! Even if we discount Earth 22 Wally West and just stick with pre-crisis Wally West, that Wally is far faster than Thanos, SS or CA and since this is bloodlusted Wally that mean's he's starting this fight at maximum speed. CA, SS and Thanos won't have time to process a though before they've been BFR'd, speed stolen or had their brains phased out of their body.

Even as fast as SS and CA are, even with CA pre-cog...they still have to think in order to iuse those abilities and Wally thinks much faster than any of them.

I'll admit surfer and thanos can't really do anything to wally but wally isn't speed stealing captain atom or bfr'ing him.

Let's cover this specifically. Why wouldn't speed steal work on CA? If you're implying his powerset would allow him to no sell it via his power use which is totally fair and makes sense wouldn't that require CA to be aware of what's happening and make a conscious decision?

Are there CA feats showing that his matter manipulation happens automatically as a self defense mechanism or feats showing he can think and react as fast as Wally West? Because I just don't see any winner here except Wally unless the opponents can actually comprehend what Wally is doing, then react to it.

How would wally's speed steal work on a being that's quantum energy?

He's stealing the kinetic and potential energy of the target. Quantum energy still has potential energy, does it not?

Wally steals kinetic energy and when has wally been shown to speed someone thats Quantum energy?