wally west vs nate grey

@easternwind: I'll add that to my summer reading list, thanks!

@_atomikill_: After I typed it I realized it wasnt in the best terms.

Really the thing is motion is the movement of an object, and when you get into the forces that cause motion you get into complex physics the wikipedia page I just linked is a good source.

Enough. As wally fans, we have the duty of knowing his limits in order to prevent others from thinking all of us are fanboys.

First we need specifics on winning. Does wally only need to destroy Nate's physical body to win, or can nate keep fighting without it? If the latter is true, Nate is a borderline reality warper, strong telepath thingy. Wally can NOT take on reality warpers if he can't catch them.

So what's Nate's non physical form like? Is it something wally can counter? If not, then he may not be able to defeat Nate and his reality warping skillz ...

(though, he could punch Franklin Richard ' s head off before he can process it :P)

to your side question, that's became a bad habit of mine. whenever i quick reply to someone. i guess someone can recognize to my writing through that

on the topic, nah a psionic being isn't same as anything wally has ever stolen speed from, as i've said, wally hasn't even stole speed from air, or wind, it's a whole different thing, someone can even possess someone by the psionic form, it doesn't follow any rules of friction (it isn't even made out of atoms, so how'd it follow rules of friction? even light doesn't follow rules of friction as it isn't made out of atoms either), so really, if u're saying wally can speed steal from something as different as that, you better provide feats for that.

i never pressurized anyone, i just stated what nate can do, and what wally can't. sure it could play differently if anything like that happens in a real comics, but we do take account of the 'feats' here don't we? that's why everyone thinks wally so powerful despite he getting knocked out quite often in comics, or get beat up by someone like mirror master constantly, because flash's feats shows those things are not possible, so we take flash's feats into account and level it as a mismatch if someone makes a flash vs mirror master thread in vine. you see, by both of their 'feats' here, flash doesn't seem to have a chance of winning, and many people said that even before i said anything to them.

i don't get it, when things are this clear, still you are adamant to make reasonless arguments for flash, why? can't flash loose any fight? seriously, wenjun chew makes arguments like these for batman :D

i'm being straight forward. by feats, no wally can't do anything to it. but by feat, it is also true nate haven't shown use of any other powers in that form (he may be able to do it, but he hasn't shown it). so at this point, nate's only options in psionic form would be possessing flash's body, or possess back his old body.

(lol @ wally to franklin :D)

@ssj_god: Cause of a Heart Attack?

@awesomedude:

yeah... because he sees no way of defeating nate and gets into cardiac arrest in fear of loosing XD

@ssj_god: No, cause he's sick, just like Comicvine now.

@ssj_god: Just a point of clarification. Wally has stolen speed from various objects including electromagnetic radiation (light), a being made from pure energy, and even the electrical impulses in a person's brain. So, stealing speed from air or wind is nothing to Wally. The question is this: Is psionic energy like all other forms of energy or is it something totally different? I think the honest answer is that nobody knows. This isn't the type of stuff you can debate about because there's no evidence one way or another; there's no way to prove it one way or another.

So when Wally Speed Steals someone they die because with your logic their heart should stop. I think you got the wrong idea....

u can remember i said the same thing to you which u're saying to me :D

well, i'm just saying that, there's no feat of that for wally dealing with psionic beings.. so we can't use anything which haven't been shown before. that's it :)

@ssj_god: you think nate can blitz Franklin despite Franklin's superior reality warping? xD

i don't think nate have blitzed anyone before :D

Ah, I see that.

Anyway, none of that matters. The psionic being moves- therefore, it has speed. True or false? If it has speed, it is connected to the speed force unless specifically otherwise stated. True or false? Therefore, since it is connected to the speed force, Wally can steal speed from it.

You stated what Nate can do? Uh, no. Here's an example- @beaconofstrength said Wally takes this. He didn't say it was a stomp, or spite, or anything- he stated who would win here. And you flat out rejected him by saying and I quote- 'dies XD'. Plus, you are lowballing Wally now by only taking his low showings. Must we forget that he took down the Anti-Monitor? Sure he was weakened, but still. That's some dangerous sh!t.

Also, like I said, you're using the logic that just because he's never done it means he can't do it. Wally simply takes speed from moving objects- there is no denial there. And a psionic being is no different than any other 'moving object.'

Wait a minute, are you attacking me now by saying that I am arguing for Flash? Also, it is not reasonless. I am debating for the right answer. It may be reasonless to you, because apparently you knew the answer to this thread. If anything, YOU are being like Wenjun Chew, because you debate for the person who you make threads for even when it isn't spite or anything. You already have all the answers, and nobody else can be right ever, because you are quite frankly, meaning no offense by it like I am sure you meant no offense with your statement, a troll. I threw the dart, hit the bullseye. Hate to sound rude, but if you attack me I will attack you.

@_atomikill_:

u are getting over board man ... psionic beings aren't 'object' .. these aren't made out of atoms.. and wally has no feats on something like that...

i said i have conceded this thread as a mismatch.. that's why i replied like that.. in vine, feats are everything, doesn't matter what you believe.

if saying about wenjun chew means attacking you.. and you think you can say whatever comes to your mouth to me.. then please don't bother to tag me or reply to me ever (doesn't matter if you don't want to sound rude or not.. you did sounded very rude and used enough language to make a simple discussion regarding imaginary characters a personal agenda).. i've never been rude to people on internet in my life, and i certainly don't intend to be either... i'm not flagging your post, but if you don't have sanity to go on like a civilized person, then don't reply to me or tag me please.. i like to enjoy comic vine .. i'm not here to quarrel with anyone.

If it moves it is connected to the Speed Force. Plain and simple.

Also, there are other sources of credibility other than feats, like logic.

And plus, I was going to wrap up debating anyway- I knew that it would be pointless.

@_atomikill_:

well .. wally can't speed steal from everything.. he hasn't done anything like that... so we can't really assume which haven't been shown

i came into this thinking flash but with the evidence shown i will say nate

No, only legit speedsters are connected to the speedforce. For example superman has no connectio to the Speed-force though very fast, that is not his power-source. Furthermore it is the measure of all velocity in the DCU. However, given that Nate and Wally will be fighting in a neutral universe, I don't even know if the speedforce would still function the same. Furthermore, speed stealing works through taking one's kinetic energy which is the (1/2)mv^2. Mass, and energy are placed into to seperate categories for a reason. Essentially there is no kinetic energy without mass. Giving that Nate is a psionic being (astral energy) he has no mass, he is not subjected to kinetic movement, Therefore speed stealing from him would be quite difficult. Furthermore speed force dumping would be useless considering that Nate can easily traverse different realities/dimensions under his own power. And yes Nate still retains the use of his abilities in psionic form. It's been explained that's he's somewhat a conduit to the astral plane, therefore he always has energy pouring into-him, and can manipulate the astral plane itself to achieve various task.

@ssj_god: There is no evidence that says Wally cannot steal Nate's speed before he goes into his psionic form. He'd need to think in order to go into this form, and... he can't think when he is pretty much in a coma.

@x_insignia1: Right, my bad.

But what if Nate's not in his weird energy form

@ultragreenboy

without his psi form then yeah. However Shaman Nate at his peak remained in his psi-form for the most part.

Furthermore, even if Nate still manages to get his speed stolen, the spead steal does not impair, or retard thought/mind because when inertia was had his speed stolen his eyes were still moving around, his comprehension was still normal, however his movements were for the most part statue like. Therefore even if Nate has his speed stolen he could still access his abilities via thought.

Cheater Cheater Pumpkin Eaterrr

Couldn't Wally just trap Nate into the Speed Force?

Reality Warping < Traps

would be useless since Nate casual universe/dimension jumps on his own.

@x_insignia1: the speed force isn't just a universe or dimension you can just leave and has nothing to do with power. Besides Pisboy prime of course. It literally changes you, I'll look for the scan that talks about how it affects characters when inside.

Nate stomps, just like Franklin would....

@spiderbuck: naw, franky gits blitzed.

While headless xD

While headless ? xD

@x_insignia1:

umm .. it isn't the case though.. see the scan i posted about nate's psionic form... his host body was unconscious that time when it came out.. it doesn't matter if the body freezes completely or even dies, nate's psionic form will come out from the body, it's independent of body's status (giving the scan below again)

nah.. wally can't hurt nate actually XD

don't you think a reality warper will come back? :D

actually nate can trap wally to such places from where he can't return (to other realities.. or outside the reality)

Who said Nate was headless : /

eh? .. you said :D .. the thing is, nate's shaman body breaks after receiving fatal physical hits.. then he can just reform the body... wally can't defeat him that way :)

The other dude said Franklin would get his head knocked off quickly then the other other dude said nate would stomp like franklin though franklin has no head

@ultragreenboy:

lol.... we're not familiar with franklin's powers.. he's stronger than even celestials and can control galactus...a very very powerful reality warper.. i'm sure something as silly as that won't kill franklin.. but whatever.. liked the idea though :D

But it isn't the same as being unconscious. It is literally not being able to do anything.Nate's subconscious cannot even think- which it can when one is unconscious. And that scan shows Nate in a coma, right? Well, subconscious is still up and at em in a coma. You've shown no evidence that the body can die and he'd go psionic.

see the scan again... nate doesn't need to think to do anything like that.. his psionic came out independently...and then tuned into a figure after coming out.. there's no sign of him thinking or anything like that.. and btw .. nate once literally came back as a psionic being after dying.

and why are you even saying anything like that? .. there's no evidence in the first place that wally speed steal stops everything, then all of his speed steal victims would've died (u know, after stopping of heart and other important organs) .. but no one died this far..

you know, wally can't stop from nate going into psionic form .. but if he can't show how he can stop the foe from doing anything .. rather than just restricting their movement, then we can say nate can use tp after being frozen.. for which he doesn't need to move at all.. just thinking is enough :D

It is a dimension, it produces extra-dimensional energies. It's been stated. I don't see what's so hard to grasp about that. As I said, Nate is an expert at traversing dimensions/other universes.

The unconscious body wasn't Nate, it was a host. If you read the full arc from the beginning you would see that he was inhabiting a random kids body via body hopping.

Speed Steal doesn't shut down organs just stops them in place non-lethally

It's must be difficult to grasp, you don't seem to know anything about it. Or which one you're even using.

@supermanwithatan01: How is it that one who is powered by the sun gets tanned by it ?

even in the new 52 the speed force was displayed as a separate dimension in the early Flash 52 comics, its even been depicted that way in pre-52. It's a dimension that powers all speedsters. In a way it's even been referenced as a version of heaven for the speedsters. I've told you what's what, If you feel you can provide a better explanation go ahead, till then the point still stands that speed-force dumping is useless.

umm.. even if it wasn't a dimension, nate is a reality warper, he can jump through realities, can even jump out of reality and jump out of time aswell, so what's stopping him from coming back?