WAAAGH! Tywin

Given the number of GoTs thread and the rather shameful lack of most fantasy threads, I figured I might as well do something about it.

Tywin's forces are as he had them (with a few adjustments and liberties taken on my part) during the Battle of the Green Fork, but the Stark forces are being replaced with a, fairly small, Greenskin WAAAGH!

The Lannister commanders have been informed that the Orcs are coming as well as a message giving them information on what they look like and a rough idea of their capabilities. Their army has also been informed that they are facing 'beast' instead of men.

Note: These are Warhammer FANTASY ORCS, NOT 40K ORKS. I am sure I will still see people posting about 40k Orks, but know that if you do, I will laugh at you.

Yes, it is Orcs in fantasy, not Orks. Orks is only 40k.

Commander

Tywin Lannister

Sub-Commanders

Tyrion Lannister

Kevan Lannister

Addam Marbrand

Gregor Clegane

Army

20,300 Men in total

7,500 Cavalry

- 4,000 Westerosi Knights

- 2,500 Heavy Horse

- 1,000 Light Horse/Sellsword cavalry

12,800 Infantry

- 2,500 Archers

- 2,000 Sword/Axemen

- 2,000 Pikemen

- 6,000 Spearmen

- 300 Mountain Clansmen

Commander

Black Orc Warboss

Sub-Commanders

One Orc Boar Big Boss

One Orc Big Boss

One Savage Orc Big Boss

One Goblin Wolf Rider Big Boss

Army

24,860 Greenskins in total

5,750 Cavalry

2,000 Orc Boar Boyz (Spears, choppa, shield)

3,000 Goblin Wolf Riders

- 1,000 Goblin Wolf Riders with short bows

- 2,000 Goblin Wolf Riders with spears, swords and shields

500 Forest Goblin Spider Riders (spears, swords, shields)

200 Goblin Chariots

50 Boar Chariots

19,110 Infantry

7,100 Orc Boyz

- 2,500 Orc Choppa (and shield) Boyz

- 1,000 Savage Orc Boys

- 500 Orc Big'Uns (Big Choppas)

- 2,000 Orc Spear (and shield) Boyz

- 1,000 Orc Arrer (Archer) Boyz

- 100 Black Orcs (Commander's Retinue)

12,000 'Common' Goblins

- 6,000 Goblin Spearmen

- 3,000 Goblin Swordsmen

- 3,000 Goblin Archers

10 Trolls

- 5 River Trolls

- 5 Stone Trolls

Battlefield - Eastern Bank of the Green Fork (Same terrain as in the show)

Which force wins the field? Why does this force win the field?

Tags, as always, if your name is not among these and should be, I apologize.

@eisenfauste@killerwasp@jwwprod@aressword@paragonnate

Tywin calls for the 1v1 combat so that neither side will have casulties. Gregor Clegane kills the enemy champion. So...GoT wins.

Right, forgot, they are told how to kill Trolls and of their regenerative powers.

@penderor:You are joking, I hope. The Black Orc Warboss would take the challenge as that is what Orcs do, a Black Orc is larger, stronger and tougher than Gregor. They can outfight mounted Imperial knights and go toe to toe with Dwarfs and Elves in skill. If Gregor challenges a Black Orc Warboss to single combat, he is coming home in a pine box.

@wut: Gregor Clegane has superhuman strength and durability. Thats similar to the dwarf isnt it?

@penderor: No, Dwarfs have centuries of combat experience and Black Orcs will match them in skill and beat them. Only super dwarfs like Gotreks (who has tree trunk arms and swings an axe a man can barely lift with both arms faster then people can see) or those decked out with magical items can match a Black Orc Warboss in strength (they are physically stronger in both lore and tabletop then dwarfs). Gregor has neither of these. A normal Orc does what Gregor does, carry a sword a human would struggle to lift with one, human-head sized hand.

Black Orcs, as they are, are naturally bigger, stronger, tougher, disciplined and more intelligent then normal orcs. Orcs spend every day of their lives fighting, as they win, they get bigger and acquire more 'power' in their tribes. A Warboss is an Orc who is, by very nature, the most powerful orc in the warband as he got that position through his martial powers, they constantly fight other massive orcs who seek to challenge his position.

This is a race that has face eating competitions with large balls of teeth (As in, they both open their mouths and try to eat each others faces, they consider this fun).

That is how large an Orc Warboss is to a common man and said depicted Orc is bending over. A Warboss is, generally, 8-10 ft tall and that is with them being their normal hunched selves.

Fighting a Black Orc Warboss one on one would be suicide for any GoT character, especially Gregor who is used to being the stronger, dominate fighter while, to the Warboss, Gregor is just another uppity Big'Un, something he handles on a normal basis. Human armies beat Orcs through superior discipline and tactics (which is something that should be looked at), fighting Orcs one on one is rarely a good idea unless you have crazy magical weaponry or are possessed by a deity. (Man in the picture had both, one of the most powerful magical weapons in the world, magical armor, and was possessed by Sigmar and that was how he beat the pictured Orc, who wasn't even a Black Orc).

@wut: Gregor can be given Valyrian blade. Also, if they are that good as you say, then its impossible for humans to beat them with discipline and tactics for humans (lol).

This is basically real army vs fantasy army. A mismatch.

@penderor: Gregor can be given Valyrian blade

Doesn't change anything. Someone having a Valyrian blade doesn't suddenly make them a better fighter or make them more skilled, nor does anyone on the Lannister side have a Valyrian sword, nor can they simply 'make' one for Gregor making it a moot thing to say.

Also, if they are that good as you say,

You are confusing an Orc for a Black Orc Warboss. Akin to confusing a force sensitive to a Sith Lord. That is the difference in their 'levels'.

Some Orcs take a few arrows to bring down, others can go down to a solid arrow hit, it tends to vary. The larger the orc, the tougher they tend to be. A human with a good sword thrust at a vital location will drop an Orc, a good arrow shot will, usually, drop an Orc (but again, some can tank more then a few arrows and keep coming, again, tends to vary).

A Black Orc Warboss would snap Gregor in half, Gregor could beat a normal Orc in one on one combat easily enough.

then its impossible for humans to beat them with discipline and tactics for humans (lol)

Yet, somehow, the humans of warhammer have been doing that for thousands of years, even back when they were little more then tribes. Anyone with a passing knowledge of warhammer would notice I purposely took away any magic the Orcs had, their larger monsters, anything that flies, their warmachines, and their more exotic units.

Normal, unmagical human armies have defeated Orcs. It can be done, just shrugging and saying fantasy vs real life mismatch is incorrect in the extreme.'

EDIT: Of course, this is also ignoring the fact that most of the greenskin army are goblins with Orcs making a small core of the force.

hmmmmm, yep, I think Batman wins

LOL at the single challenge of a black orc warboss LOL my goodness that was priceless, anyway orcs have the numbers, durability, and overall the quickness to fight Tywin and win. However im always open for debate on whether the orcs would indeed win, but they got a nice nice mix of light and heavy infantry that is for sure good job @wut on being that one person who already knows how to do it, and just did it again <_< XD ( ik there could of been a lot more but honestly at a base model this is still good enough lol ).

@wut said:

@penderor: No, Dwarfs have centuries of combat experience and Black Orcs will match them in skill and beat them. Only super dwarfs like Gotreks (who has tree trunk arms and swings an axe a man can barely lift with both arms faster then people can see) or those decked out with magical items can match a Black Orc Warboss in strength (they are physically stronger in both lore and tabletop then dwarfs). Gregor has neither of these. A normal Orc does what Gregor does, carry a sword a human would struggle to lift with one, human-head sized hand.

Black Orcs, as they are, are naturally bigger, stronger, tougher, disciplined and more intelligent then normal orcs. Orcs spend every day of their lives fighting, as they win, they get bigger and acquire more 'power' in their tribes. A Warboss is an Orc who is, by very nature, the most powerful orc in the warband as he got that position through his martial powers, they constantly fight other massive orcs who seek to challenge his position.

This is a race that has face eating competitions with large balls of teeth (As in, they both open their mouths and try to eat each others faces, they consider this fun).

That is how large an Orc Warboss is to a common man and said depicted Orc is bending over. A Warboss is, generally, 8-10 ft tall and that is with them being their normal hunched selves.

Fighting a Black Orc Warboss one on one would be suicide for any GoT character, especially Gregor who is used to being the stronger, dominate fighter while, to the Warboss, Gregor is just another uppity Big'Un, something he handles on a normal basis. Human armies beat Orcs through superior discipline and tactics (which is something that should be looked at), fighting Orcs one on one is rarely a good idea unless you have crazy magical weaponry or are possessed by a deity. (Man in the picture had both, one of the most powerful magical weapons in the world, magical armor, and was possessed by Sigmar and that was how he beat the pictured Orc, who wasn't even a Black Orc).

The only people ik that actually are stupid enough and have been successful fighting orcs head on is Chaos actual chaos warriors, man that was such a phucking lovely fight i wish they did it on the big screen ( and you know what battle im talking about XD ).

Most? In your OP is almost HALF of the army made of Orcs. 10,000 + isnt small core lol.

It isnt incorrect in the extreme. Unless Warhammer humans are better than real life humans. You said that the Orcs are strong enough to wield swords, which would be barely lifted by humans. Lets say you are talking about struggling with only one hand. That means the sword would have to weight between 30-50 pounds I guess (AT LEAST). So they are using like 10x heavier weapons, which means they should have strength on par with either comic peak humans or low superhumans. I cant even imagine the distance they can shoot with bows. That must be at least 400 meters. They are also able to use shieldwall without any chance of human army of equal number to penetrate. Thats reality.

Unless of course, IQ of their leaders is under 90.

Warhammer universe pushes their feats farther. Greenskins win.

@wut: The Orcs should win.

@penderor: Most? In your OP is almost HALF of the army made of Orcs. 10,000 + isnt small core lol.

Out of nearly 6 thousand cav, 2,050 of them are Orcs. That is the core and outnumbered by the Goblins.

In the Infantry, out of 19,110 greenskins, only 7 thousand of those are orcs while 12,000 are Goblins. So, yes, most of the army is, in fact, goblins. I did this for a reason.

It isnt incorrect in the extreme.

Yes, it is.

Unless Warhammer humans are better than real life humans.

Only 'super humans' who are given magical weaponry are. Your standard Empire state troop is no different than a normal human. An Orc Army fought a 'Bandit' army that was comprised of ex-army and mercenaries, and the Bandit Army fought the Orcs to a standstill and almost won despite the Orc army being larger in Gotreks and Felix. A dwarven army in Grudebearer, outnumbered two to one, nearly defeated the Orc army and would have had their human allies not quit the field before the fight started.

But then, what do I know? It isn't like I have read the lore in question.

You said that the Orcs are strong enough to wield swords, which would be barely lifted by humans.

Indeed because they are massive hunks of metal crudely sharpened into a blade.

Lets say you are talking about struggling with only one hand. That means the sword would have to weight between 30-50 pounds I guess (AT LEAST).

Given the blade is a giant hunk of metal, this is obviously true. Choppas are massive hunks of metal, the best way to view them is do you remember the blade the orc beserker in LotR at the siege of Helms Deep used? While it isn't as long, the mass is the same. So, imagine the weight of that large cleaver blade, made shorter but fatter.

So they are using like 10x heavier weapons, which means they should have strength on par with either comic peak humans or low superhumans.

Yep, you are catching on so far, Orcs are, indeed, incredibly physically strong beings.

I cant even imagine the distance they can shoot with bows.

They are also the most inaccurate race in the world which is why I gave them 1,000 (they suck and are worthless). They can't hit the broadside of a barn, or even fifty meters near the barn. This is reflected in the fact that, fantasy and 40k, they have the lowest ballistic skill rating.

That must be at least 400 meters.

.. You do know the distance a bow can fire depends not on just the strength of the user, but the quality and design of the bow and arrows as well, yes? The Orcs suffer here as both the bow and the arrows are of poor quality since, of the many things Orcs are, craftsmen, they are not.

They are also able to use shieldwall without any chance of human army of equal number to penetrate.

Good thing they don't use shieldwalls. They lack the temperament for it. Seriously, you need discipline and a level of teamwork to use a shieldwall, both of which the Orcs lack. Orcs are a kind of race that will start fighting each other if they think the other Orc insults them and if the Boss can't keep a handle on them. If you think they are going to form a shieldwall, then, you have not been paying attention.

Thats reality.

Only for someone who knows next to nothing about the universe, the race, and how said race fights.

Unless of course, IQ of their leaders is under 90.

Most warboss are 'human' level intelligence, but are often more 'clever'. However, as is a running theme with the orcs, just because you make a plan doesn't mean they will follow it, or even remember what it was. This happens numerous times in lore where a warboss makes a plan of attack, a strategy, but, at the battle, it is discarded in favor of charging at the enemies rank and file. Unless the boss is right there growling and smacking them to keep them in line, the Orcs will charge off on their own.

So Orc leader is no leader at all.

Funny.

Soo... much....reading....too many....words..... I'll die before I can't comment here...wait..I just did.

@penderor: So... your rebuttal is nothing more then a semi-snide comment? Alright then. Gregor has more in-common with Orcs then he does humans. Only Orcs don't rape young girls.

@dygoboy:I guess expecting people to have to read on a text based forum is a bit much.

@wut: So they rape older girls? Not really big difference though.

i know little about warhammer lore.but from reading the thread, its implying a normal human, well organized GoT force, against a slightly larger, possibly disorganized force, that has 7000 gregor cleganes as part of it. humans know they are fighting 'beasts' so can possibly get over the initial shock of their opponents appearnace, savagery much faster.(much n the way elephants caused intial problems in ancients tmes, unlil the opponents calmed down and, kept discipline, and formed a plan).

i think of well organised roman legions, before the empire started filling its ranks with a lot of barbarian soldiers. or even spartans. they were able to defeat larger, more savage forces through tactics, and discipline. while the orcs have soldiers that are physically betetr than just about any human, i can see the organised force taking 6/10, and frankly doing better in subsquent 'rematches', as they learn to exploit the potentially disorganized force. (the romans didnt run into problems in europe until the germanic tribes started getting orgnized, instead of just running head long into battle).

@penderor: Orcs lack the parts required to do sexual reproduction. They are all asexual. There is a greater chance of Varys, the spider, raping someone than Orcs doing so.

But please, do go on, your knowledge on this subject has, so far, been inspiring.

So how do they breed? Do they just...

@wut: I'd like to be on the callout list for Whfb!

the average orc is superior to the average human, and orcs have magic gear.

the 100 black orcs are infinitely superior to any other force on the battle field, they can carve through more than 1000 men alone.

The trolls will also be terrible to face, the westerosi of this age are not used to face monsters, and a troll is strong enough to tank multiple crossbow bolts and regenerate and throw a full grown horse.

They stomp.

@penderor: you really have no knowledge on whfb if you think the mountain can beat an orc boss.

True, its infinitely better to put any other westerosi man against orc boss, because obviously anyone stands better chances. Or even better, lets massacre the whole army and make it more epic and bloody.

Tyrion or Ser Addam Marbrand give out a quick awe inspiring speech to rally the spirits of the western men before charging into what is near certain death.

But in all honest, Tywion is not an idiot and would not fight a lost battle, he would probably send the tribes men (and possibly Tyrion ) into the meat slaughterfest first, while he and the rest of his men retreat to a more strategically defense position such as Harrenhal which is just a few leagues to the south. (and who cares if the orcs run rampant through the River Lands, that's what the fishy Tully's get for trying to kidnap a Lanister! )

Wait what?
i don't get what you're saying, it's obvious that the mountain is not terrible, he's just not up to par with vastly superhuman beings with magical equipment.

Then read it again. There is obvious sarcasm (if you still dont get it).

Ah, cool

When you realize you talked about stuff you had no knowledge on and that you cannot defend your statements you use sarcasm to get out of it.

A way like another.

That feel when someone has to talk about different kind of bullshits because his brain isnt capable of absorbing one long sentence.

@penderor:They are a mixture between a fungi and mammal. They constantly give off spores from their body as they are alive, and when they die, their body releases numerous spores that, over time, will grow into small greenskins (snotlings/Squigs), as the area becomes more 'saturated' the larger orkoid species start to appear such as Orcs and Goblins.

As such, fighting, and death, is how the Ork (And Orc) species repopulates and reproduces. They do not have any 'sexual' organs, thus raping, is not possible for an Ork (Or Orc), not to mention, an Ork (Or Orc) lacks any such thoughts or desires for such actions.

You could have saved yourself a lot of time and not needed to use this sarcasm defense mechanism if you had simply used google.

@pierpat: Will tag you for the next thread I make that is WH related.

I didn't give anyone magical equipment. The boss is armed just like a normal Black Orc.

Oh, now we've gone into insulting.

Cool.

@wut thanks.
The orc should win even without magical equipment.

Orcs is da bestest WWWAAAAAAAAGH DA ORCS!!!!!

Also please tag me @wut for any future WHF battles you may have in mind please, I rarely get to make use of my knowledge of it. It sucks that so many people have gravitated to 40K, not that 40K isn't awesome cause it is, there's just some charm in classic fantasy settings that 40K lacks, at least from, my point of view.

@paragonnate: I will be sure to tag you from now on. I did tag you for this, if you look at the OP, at the bottom of the post, I had you in the tags, but it might not have sent because this site... yeah.

I agree, I also find that fantasy has a lot of charm that 40k just doesn't have.

@wut: It sounds like the are plants.

What's up fair maid? Problem?

@penderor: Close, but they are more akin to fungus than plants, but essentailly, yes, they are an odd mixture of plant/mammal if you prefer to think of it that way. They were genetically designed to be like that, but they are no more flammable than a normal human.

Oh, not at all little one, i hope that your angers in the real world give you a break.

Is it discrimination if I say only someone from US could create something like that?

@penderor: Uh, Warhammer was thought up by the British... Seriously man, google.

It also helps that WHF has Gotrek, and to a lesser extent Felix, while 40K doesn't. Gotrek is just a BAMF any way you look at it. Felix is a level or two below Gotrek in terms of sheer bad***itude but he makes up for it by getting all the ladies. On second thought it seems like all Felix does sometimes is duck for cover and get laid......

@paragonnate: 40k would be a much better place with Gotreks in it. I would love to see him doing what he does best instead of marines like Kaldor.

Lol that is Felix in a nutshell. Ducking, bumbling his way into getting laid (sometimes said woman stealing his money... or being turned into a vampire... or dying... honestly, Felix is just bad luck), and stabbing at enemies so long as Gotreks is in front of him. His swordsmanship is good, and if he was in a story by himself, he would be fine, but when you are next to someone like Gotreks?.... Well.... it is like being Hercule in DBZ.

Gotrek is more awesome than nearly all Spehs Murines, although some characters in 40K can give him a run for his money at times.

To be fair to Felix he is more than capable in his own right. He's cut down scores of orcs, undead, Chaos cultists, Chaos warriors and even a Chaos Champion or two over the years a Gotreks's Rememberer. It's just.....Gotrek is Gotrek. That crazy dwarf was even fighting fairly evenly with a freaking Blodthirster at one point, although he was slowly loosing until he got his axe's companion weapon in his other hand, and after Felix stabbed it in the back with Kharagul (sp?) which distracted it enough for Gotrek to recover IIRC. Gotrek then went on to kill the Bloodthirster and pretty much solo an entire Chaos army. I mean......dude.

Felix doesn't really stand behind Gotrek, only then new author has emphasized that, the original one had them mostly fighting side by side, with Gotrek just plowing ahead like a maniacal bearded bloodsmeared snowplow, with Felix stepping up where he could but Gotrek doesn't leave much alive for Felix to fight soooo......yeah he essentially got the leftovers.

@paragonnate: Gotrek is more awesome than nearly all Spehs Murines, although some characters in 40K can give him a run for his money at times.

Agreed, Gotreks could easily give many characters from 40k a run for their money.

To be fair to Felix he is more than capable in his own right. He's cut down scores of orcs, undead, Chaos cultists, Chaos warriors and even a Chaos Champion or two over the years a Gotreks's Rememberer. It's just.....Gotrek is Gotrek. That crazy dwarf was even fighting fairly evenly with a freaking Blodthirster at one point, although he was slowly loosing until he got his axe's companion weapon in his other hand, and after Felix stabbed it in the back with Kharagul (sp?) which distracted it enough for Gotrek to recover IIRC. Gotrek then went on to kill the Bloodthirster and pretty much solo an entire Chaos army. I mean......dude.

Indeed, that is why I called him Hercule. Hercule is far superior to a normal human, far, far superior, yet, compared to all these blatant super human monsters, he isn't much when compared to them. (I did not mean to imply Felix has Hercule's ego). IIRC, he lifted the dwarf super hammer after invoking the names of the Dwarf Gods and asking for aid. Gotreks later picks it up, and that, plus his axe is what makes him go into murder mode. (The other Axe of Grimnar is in the hands of Grudgebearer).

Felix doesn't really stand behind Gotrek, only then new author has emphasized that, the original one had them mostly fighting side by side, with Gotrek just plowing ahead like a maniacal bearded bloodsmeared snowplow, with Felix stepping up where he could but Gotrek doesn't leave much alive for Felix to fight soooo......yeah he essentially got the leftovers.

Not really 'side by side' it was often described as... Felix just cleaning up the left-overs, finishing off those that Gotreks didn't kill, and keeping them from flanking Gotreks, which makes since, Felix should be running support while Gotreks goes Lawn Mower on them.

Yup.

Ah he used the hammer that the dwarf king had, not his own sword, knew I was misremembering something just wasn't sure what.

Yeah Felix gets the leftovers, it just seemed off to me that the newer author put such emphasis on it is all, I mean it's not like Felix wasn't fighting with Gotrek at all, just seemed odd to point it out is all. Aaaaaand now I want to put a red Mohawk on top of my lawnmower.........thanks for that :/

This makes me think of a new battle to make. Drizzt Do'Urden and Wulfgar vs. Gotrek and Felix. What do you think?

@wut: You want to tell me that british made orcs as plants?

@penderor: Since 1983. But, I take fungi/mammal hybrids over teddy bears with spears.