Vulcan VS Human Torch

Rules:

• Start 100 feet apart.
• Fight takes place here:

Vulcan should win.

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Vulcan

Does Johnny have some sort of a recent amp that I'm not aware of? Because if not Vulcan stomps.

Vulcan

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Out of curiosity how would Vulcan stomp? And I don't think he's had an amp.

Vulcan stomps

Vulcan is in a class way above what HT could handle on his own and is way too versatile. He's held his own against Gladiator, Black Bolt, and other threats Johnny could never hold a candle (or torch, if you will) to.

He only held his own against Black Bolt because Black Bolt is powered by energy which he could manipulate. He didn't hold his own against Gladiator at all. Gladiator no sold his attacks while for some reason standing around and letting Vulcan slaughter his comrades without doing anything, then decided he was tired of this sh!t and took out Vulcan's eye with the swipe of his knuckle and then one-shotted him so hard he was left a groggy self-loathing mess for weeks afterword.

Vulcan isn't on the same level as Gladiator or Black Bolt.

I will admit I recalled the Gladiator instance inaccurately. Perhaps he is not on their level. Still, Gabriel is way more powerful than Johnny.

Johnny is outmatched here and if you can't see it, I'll just bow out of this thread.

Vulcan easily.

Fire's just another form of energy - literally. Fire is a chemical reaction of oxygen, heat, and a fuel source, resulting in an exothermic release of energy. Vulcan stomps.

Vulcan is an incredibly inconsistent character. He was stomping Adam Warlock (who had some of Magus' powers, I believe), depowered Banshee and Rachel Grey with a thought, and was a threat to Black Bolt.

... on the other hand...

• Oneshot by Gladiator for reasons
• Was oneshot by Polaris because he wore metal armor
• Stomped by an amped Havok (essentially, Havok - whose powers are based on solar energy - got "sun-dipped")
• Stomped by an extremely weak Havok

... so... I don't know.

I'm pretty sure he could only fight Adam Warlock and Black Bolt because there powers were energy based which worked in his favor, and depowering Banshee and Rachel was possible because he could manipulate energies in their brains to shut off mutant powers (I don't think it works on non-mutants).

Every character in some way or another works on energy. Havok's certainly did, and Havok has a pretty good track record against Vulcan.

Then why couldn't he manipulate the energy in the brains of anybody else? Okay, if it only works on mutants, why didn't he do it to Polaris or Havok? Why did he have to run away when Polaris stomped him? He was able to depower Banshee from a decent distance away; should have done the same thing here.

I've heard the argument that Summers powers don't work well against one another. If that's the case, then why was Havok able to stomp Vulcan at all? It should have been a stalemate - the only reason it was a stalemate was due to outside circumstances.

Vulcan stomps

From what I understand, Vulcan's a pretty inconsistent character. I'd back Johnny, but I don't really know where to place Gabriel.

@jedixman:

Every character in some way or another works on energy. Havok's certainly did, and Havok has a pretty good track record against Vulcan.

In the cases of Black Bolt and Adam he was specifically talking about how their powers being energy based helped him.

Then why couldn't he manipulate the energy in the brains of anybody else? Okay, if it only works on mutants, why didn't he do it to Polaris or Havok? Why did he have to run away when Polaris stomped him? He was able to depower Banshee from a decent distance away; should have done the same thing here.

It's not an ability he's ever used in combat so I don't think he can. He's only ever used it from a distance against Banshee or against Cyclops and Rachel when they were unconscious. The only other time we've seen him manipulate the energies in people's brains took focus. Plus the writers sort of forgot about it I think.

I've heard the argument that Summers powers don't work well against one another. If that's the case, then why was Havok able to stomp Vulcan at all? It should have been a stalemate - the only reason it was a stalemate was due to outside circumstances.

Scott and Havok's inability to hurt each other doesn't seem to apply to Vulcan. It shouldn't be mentioned.

Havok's powers are based on solar energy. I still don't understand why he couldn't manipulate that, especially when he was able to manipulate - what was for all intense and purposes - magic.

It could very well have taken focus, but we never actually saw him do it.

I feel like most, if not all, of his feats from Deadly Genesis should be ignored. The writers completely forget those feats in his other appearances.

I agree, it shouldn't be mentioned. I'm just saying that is a common argument to explain why Havok was able to beat Vulcan.

@jedixman:

Havok's powers are based on solar energy. I still don't understand why he couldn't manipulate that, especially when he was able to manipulate - what was for all intense and purposes - magic.

For the plot pretty much.

It could very well have taken focus, but we never actually saw him do it.

We did see him take focus when manipulating brain energy for other purposes. Although I'd say it's just something the writers forgot about.

I feel like most, if not all, of his feats from Deadly Genesis should be ignored. The writers completely forget those feats in his other appearances.

Eh...I'm not really sure what feats in terms of raw power he did in Deadly Genesis that surpassed his later showings. The only weird outier was taking control of that plane he used to kill Banshee (he doesn't have telekinesis so how exactly would he accomplish that?).

I agree, it shouldn't be mentioned. I'm just saying that is a common argument to explain why Havok was able to beat Vulcan.

Understood. We agree on this.

Well...if we assume they are both are their game, I don't see how Johnny can win.

I`m going with Vulcan.

Vulcan for the stomp

All true, but there are factors I think should be considered. All Deadly Genesis feats are pretty questionable due to one simple fact - he absorbed Darwin and his adaptive powers in an energy form who also adapted Petra and Sway with himself. He was literally unstoppable then and the second Darwin was separated from him it wasn't the case anymore. Though most of what he did was still energy manipulation so it's pretty interpretative. Another point, while he's physically a young adult, he's literally 13 years old and thus his arrogance, unreasonability and bratish behavior which was the reason for his defeats how many times? And let's not forget his transcendence to Omega level was also a new thing to him as he wasn't one before he absorbed the "no-more-mutants" mutant energies. As for Polaris, while now it's completely ignored, her powers were restored by Apocalypse and it was hinted that it made her at least more powerful than she should've been which was specially appointed by Vulcan himself. But with the time Vulcan has become much more versed with his powers and hence the instance with Warlock or this out of nowhere healing factor he had all of a sudden after receiving a point blank scream from BB.

@adamtrmm:

All that goes to reinforce the idea that Vulcan is still inconsistent. Polaris' powers may have been amped, but I don't recall any instance during or after that arc to indicate that the writer was working with that in mind. As I said earlier, I am willing to ignore most, if not all, of his feats from Deadly Genesis considering how inconsistent they are with future story arcs. I'm mostly working within his feats during and after Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar Empire.

While I understand the idea that Vulcan would get stronger, and surpass his abilities since he lost to Polaris and Gladiator, it still doesn't explain how he consistently seems to lose to Havok - especially when Havok was able to beat him after being in darkness and away from the sun for a long time.

@jedixman:

About Polaris, there was actually, take a look:

Gallery

And if you judge by RaFoSE you know that Brubaker basically postulated Havok's powers against Vulcan were 100% ineffective, it's Yost who wrote both Kingbreaker and Emperor Vulcan and I really have no idea what the hell was he thinking with Havok being able to harm Vulcan with his energy beams. I could buy the Sun-Dipped instance, but all beside that is pretty much PIS/WIS I'd say. I mean, it really makes no sense to me. Maybe he wanted to make it seem that Havok isn't as irrelevant in this story as it might appear, but to me it was pretty weak writing right there.